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: So, since history doesn't conform to your PC beliefs in the 21 Century, then it is waht, "your job" to make sure the facts are denied and the propaganda gets spun as "fact". The fact is that for a group to in fact be a "white supremacist" group, then the race of ALL members msut be "white" also..that is just a FACT. Many of the blacks that served in Hampton's Red Shirts post war, had served in/with Hampton's Legion during the WBTS, that is also a FACT that you two are seeming to sacrifice to keep to the PC rewrite of history. History didn't always play by the rules, as has already been stated on this page, but I guess its easier to ignore the facts than actually admit thet everything isn't "balck and white"...pun intended. Also, I would like and explanation how calling these groups "Democrat" paramilitary organizations is wrong, since they were formed across the Southern states to insure Democratic candidate's elections to office, and not, as you seem convinced(despite evidence to the contrary)of, to set up "white supremacist" enclaves. |
: So, since history doesn't conform to your PC beliefs in the 21 Century, then it is waht, "your job" to make sure the facts are denied and the propaganda gets spun as "fact". The fact is that for a group to in fact be a "white supremacist" group, then the race of ALL members msut be "white" also..that is just a FACT. Many of the blacks that served in Hampton's Red Shirts post war, had served in/with Hampton's Legion during the WBTS, that is also a FACT that you two are seeming to sacrifice to keep to the PC rewrite of history. History didn't always play by the rules, as has already been stated on this page, but I guess its easier to ignore the facts than actually admit thet everything isn't "balck and white"...pun intended. Also, I would like and explanation how calling these groups "Democrat" paramilitary organizations is wrong, since they were formed across the Southern states to insure Democratic candidate's elections to office, and not, as you seem convinced(despite evidence to the contrary)of, to set up "white supremacist" enclaves. |
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```KAvin <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:KAvin|KAvin]] ([[User talk:KAvin#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/KAvin|contribs]]) 01:50, 29 September 2016 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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Also, Tom, I HAVE read Drago's book and I know what it says. I don't need someone else to "interpret" it for me. As a WBTS reenactor from South Carolina who had ancestors that fought in Hampton's Legion and were members of his Red Shirts in Sumter, Richland, and Clarendon counties after the war, I think I may just know a little about the subject. |
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I have not "intentionally misinterpreted" Drago's work, and I take offence at your insinuation that I have. Perhaps it is YOU that have "misinterpreted" what the term "white supremacist" actually means, and what qualifiers are required to designate a group with that title. |
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```KAvin``` |
Revision as of 01:59, 29 September 2016
This is a good start, but it might be useful to organize it a bit with headings. Also, the red shirt was used as a paramilitary uniform in Mississippi in 1875, and it was imported to South Carolina along with the rest of the Mississippi Plan the next year. I'll have to check the sources for this in my entry on the Red Shirts in Richard Zuczek, ed. Encyclopedia of the Reconstruction Era (Westport, Conn.: Greenwood Press, 2006). Someone told me once, though I've not been able to find documentation of this, that the Red Shirts in Mississippi chose that particular uniform in honor of Jefferson Davis's unit in the Mexican War, who wore red shirts (and white pants, I think). That seems plausible and a lot more likely than the Garibaldi connection, for which I have never seen any contemporary evidence, only very post-hoc comments after the 1930s. In fact, given that there is the Mississippi connection and then the North Carolina adoption of the Red Shirt uniform and tactics in the 1898 election, we might want to change the title of this entry to get rid of "South Carolina," as that is too limiting. Bruce E Baker 23:11, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
You can add Red Shirt pages for each of the states that have an organzition because the Red Shirt organization in South Carolina was not tied to any other state and the sole focus of the red shirts in South Carolina was the redemption of the state in the 1876 election.
The book Hurrah for Hampton!: Black Red Shirts in South Carolina during Reconstruction says that a connection with Garibaldi could have existed, however remotely. In all the books I listed in the Reference section, they all mention that the red shirts derived their color from mocking Oliver Morton, so that is the most likely origin of the red in the red shirts of South Carolina.Gamecock 01:14, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
References Dated and POV
Adding more contemporary historians would be useful for attaining NPOV, as this is not supposed to be an apologia for the Red Shirts. Needs citations throughout and more balanced references. James K. Hogue at UNC is one of contemporary historians who have seen the insurgent paramilitary organizations as integral to the continuation of the Civil War (by other means) and ending of Reconstruction.--Parkwells (talk) 13:36, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
back to "private militia" from "rifle club"
The meme of referring to the Red Shirts or White League as "rifle clubs" appears to have started with a cite to 1898 Wilmington Race Riot: Debunking the Myths, Red Shirts: A History. Compared the version of history there with Wilmington Insurrection of 1898. Red Shirts were a private militia, not a "rifle club". Naaman Brown (talk) 21:04, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
African-American Red Shirts were placed in a prominent position for the procession.
The sentence "African-American Red Shirts were placed in a prominent position for the procession." Seems to imply there were African American members of the Red Shirts. That does not seem to be correct. Geo8rge (talk) 18:28, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
- It may not fit with expectations, but it seems an unlikely thing for anybody to make up. Race relations in the South (as elsewhere) have always been more complex than many people are comfortable with, and easy categories are usually invalid. Does Geo8rge have direct evidence to cast doubt on the account? Jdcrutch (talk) 19:08, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
corruption of the Reconstructionist
The article incorrectly states that the Red Shirts repressed Republican and Black voters when in fact they stopped the corruption of the Reconstructionist in that they were voting in both Republican and Democratic polls. I cite Edgefield, S.C. when the Red Shirts stopped the Black Republicans from over running the Democratic polls by a military show of force in the streets of Edgefield during the Gubanotorial elections. This lead to the S.C. constitutional crisis that caused S.C. to actually have two sitting Governors at the same time. President Grant refused to get involved and the issue was put before the S.C. Supreme court to settle. The Supreme court, with the Chief Justice being a former slave of Wade Hampton's, voted in a split vote to uphold Wade Hampton as the rightful Governor of S.C. thereby effectively ending the carpetbaggers reconstructionism in S.C. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.83.222.50 (talk) 00:08, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
- Sounds like the usual anti-Reconstruction POV. Got any sources, anonymous one? --Orange Mike | Talk 20:02, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
Article Needs Careful Revision, Review for Balance
I'm not qualified to do more than proof-read the article, but it's so full of linguistic errors and sloppy construction that I suspect more substantive errors as well. For example, the text had "raft" for "wrath", and asserted that Southern women wove shirts and other garments, which I changed to "sewed" (you weave cloth, not garments, and it's rather unlikely that post-bellum Southern women were equipped to weave red flannel on the scale necessary to supply hundreds or thousands of garments to the Red Shirt campaigners).
The article needs to be reviewed for balance as well. Inflammatory characterizations ("the gang of lawless men") and uncritical reliance on partisan sources (the New York Times in that period was a Republican paper, dedicated to supporting Republican-party hegemony, not a "newspaper of record"--see New_York_Times#History) raises doubts as to the article's impartiality.
The history of Reconstruction is extremely complex, and has long been subject to distortion by competing partisan mythologies. An encyclopedia needs to cut a careful path through a minefield of passions and prejudices on all sides, not provide a platform for one or another set of partisan interpretations. Jdcrutch (talk) 19:29, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
Bias: Red Shirt apologism
Reading the article as it currently stands, the section attached to the 10th citation needs to either remove the pro-Red Shirt bias, which is particularly jarring in a section about the unlawful revolt against the Republican-Populist coalition and intimidation of African-American officeholders, or to rewrite it as quotations from the cited source. As it is, non-quoted material, presumably drawn from the source and then rewritten in the author of the section's own words, smacks of bias and detracts from the article. The bit about the Red Shirts just wanting to make everyone remember their identities, when contrasted to using intimidation to win an election and to remove elected officeholders, is particularly jarring and takes the reader out of the article; it doesn't read like a page in an encyclopedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.136.242.129 (talk) 19:53, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
I agree - I came to the talk page to complain about the section that sites the 10th citation. Just a last name and a year? That's what most of this article is based on? This should be flagged. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.190.33.90 (talk) 05:36, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
RfC
An RfC: Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. – MrX 17:14, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
Red Shirts (Southern United States)
The Red Shirts were not "white supremacist" groups, as they had black members <Drago, Edmund L. (1998). Hurrah for Hampton!: Black Red Shirts in South Carolina during Reconstruction. University of Arkansas Press. ISBN 1-55728-541-1.> The proper title would be "Democrat" groups, as they were formed to aid in the election of Democrat candidates to local and state political offices. The entry needs to be changed if Wikipedia wants to be correct.
KAvin (talk) 06:35, 24 September 2016 (UTC)KAvinKAvin (talk) 06:35, 24 September 2016 (UTC)
- You seem to be deliberately misinterpreting Drago. While I haven't read the book, I did read a review in a scholarly journal. Eldred E Prince Jr reviewed the work in the The Florida Historical Quarterly, Vol. 79, No. 2 (Fall, 2000), pp. 235-237. He describes Hampton's efforts to disguise his movement as the restoration of home rule as "a thinly veiled attempt to reestablish white supremacy." Blacks were recruited to the Red Shirts in order to "blunt charges of racism" -- Drago says there were numerous reasons why a few hundred did join, but apparently does not claim that the Red Shirts weren't interested in restoring white supremacy. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 12:28, 24 September 2016 (UTC)
- PS An additional review in The Journal of American History, Vol. 87, No. 1 (Jun., 2000), pp. 233-234 is by Michael W. Fitzgerald. He states of the blacks recruited by the Red Shirts that Drago's description is consistent with historians who treated them as "dupes". Drago describes them as "short-sighted or naive."Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 12:41, 24 September 2016 (UTC)
- PS (again) A review in The Georgia Historical Quarterly Vol. 83, No. 4 (WINTER 1999), pp. 777-779 by John David Smith concludes with a reminder that "there always was a small minority within the black community that supported white supremacy." Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 12:51, 24 September 2016 (UTC)
- The Drago source is partially available on Google Books [1] and my review of it agrees with North Shoreman's conclusions. It is accurate to describe these groups as white supremacist, and creates a WP:SYNTH problem to do otherwise. I'll add also that use of "Democrat" in this manner is not appropriate. agtx 18:09, 24 September 2016 (UTC)
- So, since history doesn't conform to your PC beliefs in the 21 Century, then it is waht, "your job" to make sure the facts are denied and the propaganda gets spun as "fact". The fact is that for a group to in fact be a "white supremacist" group, then the race of ALL members msut be "white" also..that is just a FACT. Many of the blacks that served in Hampton's Red Shirts post war, had served in/with Hampton's Legion during the WBTS, that is also a FACT that you two are seeming to sacrifice to keep to the PC rewrite of history. History didn't always play by the rules, as has already been stated on this page, but I guess its easier to ignore the facts than actually admit thet everything isn't "balck and white"...pun intended. Also, I would like and explanation how calling these groups "Democrat" paramilitary organizations is wrong, since they were formed across the Southern states to insure Democratic candidate's elections to office, and not, as you seem convinced(despite evidence to the contrary)of, to set up "white supremacist" enclaves.
Also, Tom, I HAVE read Drago's book and I know what it says. I don't need someone else to "interpret" it for me. As a WBTS reenactor from South Carolina who had ancestors that fought in Hampton's Legion and were members of his Red Shirts in Sumter, Richland, and Clarendon counties after the war, I think I may just know a little about the subject. I have not "intentionally misinterpreted" Drago's work, and I take offence at your insinuation that I have. Perhaps it is YOU that have "misinterpreted" what the term "white supremacist" actually means, and what qualifiers are required to designate a group with that title.
```KAvin```