Weekly Standard Citations Highly Questionable
Why is the Weekly Standard, a standard-bearer for very conservative elements within the press, cited repeatedly as counters to McGovern's claims? Moreover, why are so many OPINION articles cited and quoted? This is very bizarre behavior for writers of an encyclopedia.
- Entries to the Talk page are posted at the bottom of the page and should be signed by added four tildes (without spaces) like this ~ ~ ~ ~. By properly signing your comments, it is easier to keep track of a conversation and communicate clearly. To answer your question, the Weekly Standard is a very well respected journal of political thought and investigative reporting. It has been praised repeatedly by both Democrats and Republicans. While it is true it is published by conservatives, that does not mean it cannot be cited. In fact, because it is so difficult to find conservative press, the Weekly Standard gets cited quite often in wikipedia. The wikipedia policy of NPOV does not mean the encyclopedia does not present any opinions, it does mean that it presents both sides. Presenting both sides is the only way to maintain a neutral point of view. I hope this was helpful. RonCram 06:44, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
"because it is so difficult to find conservative press" This is an outrageous statement. In what way is it "difficult" to "find" conservative press? Please clarify this statement. Inoculatedcities 13:06, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
- According to the UCLA study, most news organizations are considerably more liberal than voters or elected officials as a whole. The only "conservative press" they studied (that I remember) was the opinion page of the Wall Street Journal and FOX News. Neither of these were as far from the mainstream as the average liberal news outlets, including the news pages of the Wall Street Journal, NY Times, Washington Post or any of the other network news outlets. If you have not read the study, I would suggest you do so. It is very informative and the manner in which they measured the liberal vs conservative stance of the media outlet was very insightful. RonCram 17:28, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
- That is, of course, ludicrous. I don't think we need this much coverage of the Weekly Standard. To say the NYT, WP, and WSJ (!) are liberal is nonsense; they are professional news outlets that report news. Weekly Standard, on the other hand, is an openly biased organ of political discourse. Ron's comment about "investigative reporting" is specious -- the quotes he wants on this page are hardly examples of investigative reporting. And, in fact, the Weekly Standard has been shown to be flat out wrong about several things, often distorting things in ways that seem disingenuous and manipulative (see, for example, their coverage of alleged links between Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda). Ron's comment that democrats praise the WS is also silly; he has some quotes on his talk page from Democrats saying that they think it is important to read it. That is not the same as praising its accuracy. Overall, I think Ron should take a look at WP:BLP and not try to transform this page into a hit piece.--csloat 18:00, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
- I must refer you again to the UCLA study on media bias. Here is the abstract on the study titled A MEASURE OF MEDIA BIAS by Tim Groseclose and Jeffrey Milyo.
- Abstract: We measure media bias by estimating ideological scores for several major media outlets. To compute this, we count the times that a particular media outlet cites various think tanks and policy groups, then compare this with the times that members of Congress cite the same groups. Our results show a strong liberal bias: all of the news outlets we examine, except Fox News’ Special Report and the Washington Times, received scores to the left of the average member of Congress. Consistent with claims made by conservative critics, CBS Evening News and the New York Times received scores far to the left of center. The most centrist media outlets were PBS NewsHour, CNN’s Newsnight, and ABC’s Good Morning America; among print outlets, USAToday was closest to the center. All of our findings refer strictly to news content; that is, we exclude editorials, letters, and the like. [1]
- I have reposted the high praise for the Weekly Standard at the bottom of this page. In it you will see that is praised by people and publications from all over the political spectrum, including slate, NY Times, LA Times, Wolf Blitzer and Abe Rosenthal. If the Weekly Standard was factually wrong or unreliable, the publication would not receive this praise. The Weekly Standard's coverage of the relationship between Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda is very much in line with news media from around the world, including newspapers in Milan, Paris and Moscow. In fact, it is very much in line with the book Michael Scheuer wrote in 2002 (although Scheuer has since changed his position). It is not my intention to transform this page into a "hit piece." It is my intention to bring some much needed balance to the page. Stephen Hayes is a fine investigative reporter who regularly interviews government employees. Hayes was one of the few people in the press that CIA employees and military folks would talk to about the Operation Iraqi Freedom Documents prior to their release. Note well that none of the facts underlying the opinions of Weekly Standard about Ray McGovern have been called untrue. The article talked about the McGovern's link to the Revolutionary Communist Party (RCP) before I got here. If you think about the name, you will see the leaders of RCP cannot be antiwar since they promote revolution. The obvious fact is that certain editors do not want wikipedia readers to know all the facts about Ray McGovern. This kind of censorship is wrong. It is contrary to wikipedia policy and it is contrary to the principles of democracy.RonCram 21:11, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
- I am aware of the study; it has no relevance to this page or to this argument. It also does not in any way support the integrity of the Weekly Standard or notorious liar Stephen Hayes. And you're well aware that Michael Scheuer getting things wrong in 2002 has absolutely nothing to do with this page or the integrity of the Weekly Standard. Your claim that this page needs "balance" is ludicrous; the Weekly Standard quotes take up almost half the page. There are no similar quotes on the other side praising Ray McGovern as an American hero. There is nothing in WP:BLP that licenses turning this into a hit piece as you have done, despite your claimed intention, nor do the guidelines suggest that biographies should be "pro/con" pieces where insipid praise is "balanced" with vehement character assaults. And I don't think it would help to pursue "balance" by adding a quote from, say, the World Socialist online news source, which is roughly the equivalent of the Weekly Standard from the opposite political position. Your claim that Hayes was "one of the few people in the press that CIA employees and military folks would talk to about the Operation Iraqi Freedom Documents prior to their release" is completely inaccurate. CIA employees and "military folks" spoke to the editors of Foreign Affairs, for example, and of course Negroponte's office communicated with various news outlets. It's just that Hayes is the only one who could be relied upon to present a ridiculously myopic view of the issue focused entirely on alleged ties to al Qaeda, so perhaps he was the only one you paid attention to. None of this, of course, has anything to do with Ray McGovern, so I don't think we should continue to pursue it here. I'm not sure where your RCP comments have anything to do with this either; did someone remove RCP comments? Anyway, I have not removed the Weekly Standard stuff, but I do not see why it should be presented so centrally in this article.--csloat 21:50, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
sources needed
His supposed suspicion of the 'official 9/11 account' and US involvement in the mosque bombing need sourcing.
Questionable
Someone needs to take a hard look at this. Go to "Should You Trust 'Former CIA Officials'?" one of only two "external" links listed (both pointing to the same site), and you will see that the bio here was copied word-for-word from there. It is also quite clear that Mr. Francisco Gil-White is a crackpot (c'mon, he cites *himself*) and has an axe to grind (against Mr. McGovern).
new poster here:
Having spent time with Ray McGovern at Camp Casey last summer, I can tell readers that he is a hard working, spiritual man of integrity. Find the William Rivers Pitt interview for more insight. I was working along side him for hours without knowing who he was. Told him later "Ray, I liked you even before I knew who you were!" He got a kick out of that. He works with disadvantaged youth through his church in DC, also. He has remarkable memory, and was cut out for intelligence work, which he points out that at its best is "just the facts" not the spin.
- Gil-White does not cite himself at all. The bio for McGovern has been paraphrased from the larger body of information about people like McGovern and Cannistraro, all of which is taken from publicly available sources such as the mainstream media and government websites. The bio is simply an effort to get the most important facts in one place. Feel free to actually check those facts before you throw around names like 'crackpot'. Ryan4 14:41, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
And you yourself are free to check this page: http://www.hirhome.com/israel/mprot1.htm#_ftn19 and note that he does, in fact, cite himself. Inoculatedcities 23:52, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Quotes and Coatracking
To explain my cryptic edit summary:
What does "(→Views - Do not need to soapbox by proxy - this is as clear an example of coatracking as i've ever seen.)" mean?
a) Striver has a history of pushing his conspiracy views by propping up articles of people sharing his views. This is not in and of itself bad, but the manner he's approaching it is highly encyclopedic, and he's leaving crappy articles in his wake. Rather than being an article stating X believes Y, it's X saying Z, basically reproducing his schpiel. You can say Ray McGovern believes there's a 9/11 coverup, thinks Bush should be impeached, and thinks there's ulterior motives behind the Iraq war, without having 500 words of McGovern pitching it himself. That's the soapbox by proxy. Instead of presenting his POV, he's pushing the words of people he agrees with under the guise of encyclopedic content.
b) coatracking is a term another editor coined (my deepest apologies for forgetting who), describing the use of a bio to push a POV. The bio is the coatrack, and the POV is the coat. Rather than being simply a description of the person, the entry consists of a short bio and a inordinately long section describing their political views. The attention is drawn away from the individual and to the pontification of that individual's views, like a coat obscures the coatrack.
E.g. The Bush (to name a prominent politician) entry is not a 1 paragraph bio followed by 3 pages of quotes of George Bush's campaign statements. His policies are a small part of his bio, commensurate with his accomplishments, history, and whatnot. Moreover, they are presented not as quotes, but as NPOV prose. By definition, quoting a politican is NPOV; it's their POV!
Regarding Ray McGovern, feel free to expand the section on his views to further devlop his nuances, but do them with original prose, not regurgitated quotes (those should be cited, not copied). I distilled the included quotes down to their essence, you'd probably know his nuances better than I.
--Mmx1 04:38, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
A) It IS "encyclopedic content" to represent the views of people. Wikipedia is not paper, if you want to edit or even trim down, be my guest, but make sure you dont omitt info. Your latest edit omitted huge amounts of info.
B) Well, i could create Raymond McGovern Views of different matters, but im sure it would be afd'd. As is now, i dont know much about the guy, and not very intreseted in finding out. But there is no such thing as "views can not be expresed if it takes more than the biography" rule. If you truly feel that his views are dominating the article in a improper way, then create Raymond McGovern Views of different matters. But you dont get away from the fact that his views are to be represented, no mater how much his biography contains.
Im not confident in my ability to creat a good prose that would give justice to his quotes, but if you insist, i could give it a shot. When i have tried that, people only got mad at my poor grammar, but if you want, i could do that.
You went to far in "distilled the included quotes down to their essence", i feelt that you just deleted as much as possible without deleting everything outright. And that is no way to present the mans opinions. --Striver 01:20, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Fact is, if you look at Zakir Naik, you see that it is perfectly ok to have long bits on the guys views. The only valid arguement you gave is that i quote to much and write to little. If you truly want more of my grammar, i can try to give original prose instead of quotes. But thats it, you dont get to delete his views or "disstill" them ot 5% content.--Striver 01:25, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
First, the part about VIPS is duplicated from the bio section. Secondly, you shouldn't be quoting people when it suffices to represent their views with third party prose, as I explained above. X believes Y is preferable to X says "Y should happen becase of A, B, C". This is a page to explain what he believes, not an outlet for him to explain them.
We should do this HERE because it's how we did it THERE is not a valid argument. Who's to say that's the right way to do it? GWB was a former featured article, and there a lot of eyes on it from supporters and detractors. Should that page just reproduce his campaign statements? No. If anything, it's an argument that Zakir Naik should have its quotes pared down. --Mmx1 01:31, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Forget 5% content. How about .1%? Because of the pages and hours of published and spoken words McGovern's said and spoken, we're presenting a page. Conciseness is a good thing. I don't want to read through paragraphs and paragraphs of his writings to find out that he wants to impeach bush and thinks there's something fishy about the war. If I wanted to spend that time, his writings are available...and linked. Wikipedia is about summarizing and presenting people's views, not reproducting them. --Mmx1 01:33, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Not to bad, we are getting closer to eachother. How my latest edit? --Striver 02:09, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
You're joking, right? You just reverted it. You also apparently don't realize that the part about VIPS is duplicated. --Mmx1
No i did not! I acctualy worked on that, i take offence on you saying it was nothing more than a revert! You are right about the VIPS, ill remove that. --Striver 02:49, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Whoops, read the editlog wrong, my apologies. Looks good. Prose can always be improved. --Mmx1 03:02, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi guys
Sup. I see you guys are editing at the same time I am. Ryan4 02:58, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Yea, it's a pain in the ass when that happens. My best suggestion is to save often and make small changes at a time. --Mmx1 03:01, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Public Statements / Views
My point about the first sentence is that it is paradoxical that he worked for the CIA for 27 years and is great buddies with Bush Sr but has suddenly become an outspoken Bush critic. That's why it makes sense to have everything he says under a heading 'Public Statements', because we don't know what his 'Views' really are. Ryan4 03:07, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, I take public statements to be statements of one's views, unless you're a politician or a Karl Rove type. Activists typically do not find reason to shelter their views, and as it's now a description rather than a reproduction of quotes, I think "views" or better, "political stances" is a more accurate term --Mmx1 03:09, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
- I agree. --Striver 04:01, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
missing citation, I think
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/february2006/260206mosquebombing.htm
NPOV tag
Can someone explain the NPOV tag on this article so we can address the issues?--csloat 02:44, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
POV deletions
An editor deleted two entries and their citations with a comment derogatory to the Weekly Standard. The Weekly Standard is a highly respected journal of political thought and investigative reporting. Wikipedia does not disallow citations from Weekly Standard and any attempt to delete on that basis is pure POV. RonCram 04:25, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
- Weekly Standard is not highly respected. Also, it is openly and clearly neocon, so how is its text gonna make an encyclopedia NPOV? -- ActiveSelective 09:37, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Criticism of McGovern's views as being anti-semitic
It is clear wikipedia policy not to exclude information about an individual because of POV. An anonymous editor has deleted an entry on Howard Dean's criticism of McGovern's being anti-semitic. This is clearly POV and was done without any justification. Please note wikipedia policy before deleting information readers have a right to know about. RonCram 04:37, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
This article is not about the Weekly Standard, it is about Ray McGovern.--Jersey Devil 05:20, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
- Of course the article is not about the Weekly Standard. Neither is the article about the New York Times or any other publication that may be cited. See comment above. The Weekly Standard is accepted journal. It is contrary to wikipedia policy to delete entries based on POV. RonCram 05:25, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
No, you are trying to assert your POV into the article by simply stating opinions held on the Weekly Standard as fact as you have also done in the Paul Pillar article. Please stop this and simply cite facts instead of opinions, Deans comments could likely stay as they are factual but "The Weekly Standards thinks..." is POV pushing.--Jersey Devil 05:31, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
- Example: The Weekly Standard reports "Not In Our Name is a coalition formed in 2002 by the likes of the Maoist Revolutionary Communist Party. It is commonly referred to as anti-war, but it's no such thing. Some of its constituent groups profess a deep belief in revolutionary violence--which is to say, they are pro-war, they just want the United States to lose."
- Complete POV pushing. Let readers decide what they think about NOIN don't tell them what to think.--Jersey Devil 05:35, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
- Editors of wikipedia are not allowed to enter their own editorials on events, concepts or people. However, it is encyclopedic to enter editorials both pro and con on all of these. Your effort to exclude this material is a clear violation of wikipedia policy requiring NPOV. RonCram 06:38, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
The Weekly Standard has a history of abusing words:
- Criticism of official Israeli policy is automatically equated to antisemitism.
- By equating anti-war to pacifism it dares say that anti-war groups are actually pro-war groups.
Many of the Weekly Standard quotes RonCram put in, are either a POVed misrepresentation of facts, or irrelevant. -- ActiveSelective
- The Weekly Standard's conservative position isn't why I took it out, it is that its openly POV opinion was being used as fact to promote a POV. I would do the same for anyone trying to insert opinion as fact from any publication regardless of ideological position.--Jersey Devil 10:10, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Despite the fact that TWS is in fact a magazine of some repute, it is also on the fringes of political opinion and should definitely not be the only source of counterclaims re: McGovern (or anything really). Bill Kristol and John Podhoretz represent an extremely radical neoconservative, Zionist element with very close connections to various administrations. By the same token, they are not "journalists" in any sense of the word, they are editorialists and apologists for powerful interests (see Kristol's praise of Bush's second inaugural address and the subsequent revelation that...he wrote parts of it).Inoculatedcities 12:42, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
- The Weekly Standard is certainly not "on the fringes of political opinion." It is an extremely well respected journal as the quotes below attest. Regarding the comment above by ActiveSelective, the Weekly Standard does not say that anti-war groups are actually pro-war groups. It does say that the Revolutionary Communist Party (note the word "revolutionary") is a Maoist group that supports revolution. It also notes that leaders of RCP are the leaders of an "anti-war" group that McGovern has aligned himself with. It then draws the unassailable conclusion that the leaders of these two groups are not truly "anti-war" but really just want the U.S. to lose. There is no reason to withhold this information from a wikipedia article. It is accurate and relevant to readers.RonCram 06:43, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
- The Weekly Standard is an admittedly right-wing publication known for distortion and slander, as well as simply for getting things wrong. I pointed all of this out above. These comments about the RCP are irrelevant to any of this. Perhaps we should fill this page with quotes from the Revolutionary Worker to "balance" out the WS quotes? --csloat 16:13, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
High Praise for Weekly Standard
In order to put to rest the claim that Weekly Standard is some kind of fringe publication, I thought it reasonable to reproduce some of the praise the Weekly Standard has received from all over the political spectrum. It is true that many Weekly Standard articles are op-ed pieces, but it is also true that some of the information reported there is the result of investigative journalism in the mold of Jack Anderson. I point specifically to people like Stephen Hayes who is constantly interviewing people in government in the military and government. Wikipedia articles commonly contain editorial and op-ed pieces from various publications, including Weekly Standard.
- "The preeminent political journal in America." —Slate.com
- "The oracle of American politics" —CNN's Wolf Blitzer
- "...The Weekly Standard has become a forceful presence in the world of political opinion...It is the most intelligent, aggressive and well-written publication out there." —National Journal
- "Has The Weekly Standard become the most powerful magazine, Mara?" "Brit, it certainly has." —exchange between anchorman Brit Hume and reporter Mara Liasson, Fox News Channel
- "The Standard's editors have inaugurated one of the most interesting Beltway debates in years." —The New Republic
- "DC's opinion makers are reading The Weekly Standard." —PRWEEK
- "[The Weekly Standard] is the magazine I get most grumpy about when it's not delivered." —Abe Rosenthal, former editor, The New York Times
- "I don't think you can do without it if you want to know what's going on in Washington." —Robert Novak
- "Widespread reaction to the editorial proved that of the roughly 65,000 people who read the Standard each week, many are what you might call important." —GQ Magazine
- "The Weekly Standard is required reading up here. You have to see it to be a part of the conversation." —John Kasich, former House Budget Committee Chair
- "[One of] Washington's better read political magazines" —The Economist
- "The Weekly Standard is a must-read for people in Washington." —Jack Nelson, The Los Angeles Times
- "The Weekly Standard [has] the advantage of possessing...editors whose insights and arguments are uncommonly provocative...[They] know Washington, know politics and have demonstrated over the years a rare capacity for civil and unusually sensible argument and analysis." —David Broder, The Washington Post
- "...you speak in two very influential pulpits. You're on television a lot of the time...and you're the editor of an influential magazine." —Peter Jennings, ABC News [live interview with William Kristol]
- "The Weekly Standard is a 'must read' for anyone interested in American politics and American life." —William J. Bennett
There is no reasonable explanation for excluding comments from Weekly Standard other than your own POV is trying to shape the article. Deletion of material for POV reasons is contrary to wikipedia policy. RonCram 20:49, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
- No. I for one, did not say it was a fringe publication. Nor did other people do so. It is not a fringe publication. The problem is that it is full of twists and misrepresentations. For example, no dictionary, nor wikipedia, equates anti-war to pacifism (take a look!) but this neocon publication maintains that it is so nevertheless. Even worse, it twists these words and ideas in order to spit on the anti-war movement. This, of course, is utterly POV - far from being objective journalism. It is false and it is POV. It lies in order to push through its POV. How much worse can it get? Moreover, it is not only doing this to an antiwar-movement. It is doing so to almost any subject. It lies about democrats in order to push through a its extremist opinion. Rumours are presented as facts. Historical background about how events came to be, are not told (like decades of US' financial, military, and organizational support for Saddams tiranny). Covering up truth, is also a way of lying.
- About your quotes: most of them are not quotes of praise, only a few are. These are mostly quotes about the importance or notability of the publication, which is different. Therefore, I do agree with most of these: Weekly Standard is very notable, yes, it is setting trends (=POV!) and therefore important to knowing what will be next in fashion in US politics. I don't like the thing, but I have to read it in order to keep up with the new myths and policies. The same quotes could have been made about Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf: not a word in it was true, but you had to read it in order to know what was next in fashion for almost two decades. So, you would suggest we should also take quotes from Mein Kampf when writing an encyclopedia article about Jewish religion?!?
- In conclusion: it is not a fringe publication, but a very notable publication. Quotes from it very often miss truth value. It is also very POVed. This POV is located at one of the extremes of the political spectum, yes, "on the fringes of political opinion". (just like RCP is at the other extreme, but at least they don't lie about being fringe or being POV). It is not mainstream, any anywhere near it.
- -- ActiveSelective 07:27, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
- Active, let me address your arguments one at a time.
- You said Weekly Standard is "on the fringes of political opinion." That simply is untrue. If it was true, the publication would be a fringe publication. As it is, the publication is praised as "pre-eminent," "intelligent," "aggressive," "well-written," "powerful," "interesting," "required reading," and "influential." The magazine is said to have "a rare capacity for civil and unusually sensible argument and analysis." By definition, a publication that is "on the fringes of political opinion" is not influential or powerful or required reading. No one has pointed to anything in the magazine as being inaccurate. Regarding the definition of "pacifism," I checked dictionary.com. It defines pacifism as "1. The belief that disputes between nations should and can be settled peacefully. 2a. Opposition to war or violence as a means of resolving disputes." Now if "opposition to war" is not "anti-war" then I would like to know your definition of "anti-war."
- You are mistaken. Your comparison to Mein Kampf is misleading at best. Are you really saying Wolf Blitzer, David Broder, LA Times, Abe Rosenthal el al could praise Mein Kampf in the same way they praised the Weekly Standard? I don't think so. The magazine is praised for being "most intelligent" and having "unusually sensible argument and analysis." Interestingly, it is "several times described as "better read," "required reading" and "must-read." Why is that so? Because other publications do not provide the point of view or the informed opinion Weekly Standard provides. If it is "must-read" for the important people in Washington, it is also "must-read" for wikipedia readers.
- Again, you are mistaken. Were you hoping to find quotes saying the magazine was the "most accurate?" Surely not. Every publication strives to be accurate. Inaccuracy is the only unforgivable sin in the news business. When publications get it wrong, they publish corrections. Weekly Standard has an outstanding reputation for factual accuracy and intelligent analysis.
- To sum up, wikipedia policy on NPOV does not seek to exclude all POV. Rather, the goal is to allow POV from both sides. Weekly Standard is a persuasive conservative publication that powerfully affects mainstream political thought. It is the magazine's unusually intelligent analysis that makes it so persuasive and required reading. Because Weekly Standard is one of the few conservative publications, it is all the more important that its analysis is included in articles in order to achieve NPOV. For these reasons, the Weekly Standard should be sought out, not shunned, by wikipedia editors. RonCram 15:30, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
- You are wrong Ron. These are not words of praise; they are words of notability. This has been pointed out to you over and over again. Second, the idea that WS is "one of the few conservative publications" is nonsense. There are many. But that is a non-issue. The issue is that you should not be quoting from the opinion of a WS writer and stating it as fact. You should not be throwing in a bunch of poorly edited WS quotes into an article and claim you are promoting "balance" or NPOV. You are not. You are pushing your POV and hiding behind the "notability" of this biased publication to support your POV. Finally, your claim "Weekly Standard has an outstanding reputation for factual accuracy and intelligent analysis" illustrates just how off the deep end you are. It has a reputation, true, but not for factual accuracy. It has a reputation for distortion on many issues. The fact that people in Washington consider it an important publication or read it often is irrelevant ... I read it often too. But I don't find most of its contributions accurate or encyclopedic.--csloat 16:20, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
- csloat, you have not added anything to the conversation. Contrary to your unsupported assertion, TWS has an outstanding reputation for accuracy and intelligent analysis. Slate.com, a very liberal news and opinion outlet, calls TWS "The preeminent political journal in America." Will you explain to me how the words "preeminent political journal" are not words of praise? Can you explain how "required reading" describes a political journal that wikipedia readers should not be allowed to read? You have not addressed any of the arguments I put forward. Slate is admitting TWS is powerful and persuasive, the very things Slate aspires to be! Slate is not complaining that TWS is inaccurate or harmful or damaging. Your statements that it is shows how far "off the deep end you are." You and Active are trying to draw too fine a distinction. When you praise a publication for being powerful or persuasive or required reading, then you are admitting it is intelligently argued and written. You are admitting that people need to know the facts and opinions the publication contains in order to take part in an informed discussion. You have a difficult admitting this because you dislike their political position. You do not have to like them to admit they are a part of the political debate and readers need to know what TWS publishes. It is that simple. Refer again to Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. RonCram 16:44, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
- (1) The notion that slate.com is "very liberal" shows how far out of touch you are. "required reading" -- so what? I read it too; doesn't mean I agree with it or find it encyclopedic. "powerful and persuasive" (your words) -- sure, but that doesn't make it encyclopedic. I also never suggested WS was not "intelligently argued and written" -- that's not the issue. Good writers can write lies and distortions quite well, as we have seen. I'm not suggesting banning quotes from TWS, but they should be treated as what they are -- neocon politicially invested attack journalism. Instead of repetitively citing WP:NPOV, you might try reading it yourself.--csloat 19:56, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
RonCram - I did not say it is a "fringe" publication -- the obvious implication being that nobody reads or takes seriously what TWS writes (notice I didn't say "report"). I said it is an editorial magazine and that the ideological framework it consistently presents is most certainly "fringe". csloat hit the nail on the head by using the example of sourcing blatantly POV items (all those "The Weekly Standard says..." and "The Weekly Standard criticizes...") to analogous publications on the left. I don't object to using TWS at all, it's just that it's essentially the only publication you cite. It's like writing about Douglas Feith and only sourcing The Socialist Worker's editorials about him. And on top of all of that, you keep citing WP:NPOV as if it actually supports your actions...
"The editors of the Weekly Standard appear to believe him to be anti-semitic because he is critical of Israel's influence on U.S. foreign policy." This is coatracking. It and the whole paragraph that follows are blatant POV: You're advancing the notion that because TWS considers any criticism of Israel as "anti-semitic", it is worth noting and possibly true that McGovern does, in fact, hate all jews. Where's the evidence? Why does this belong here? How is that NPOV? Inoculatedcities 00:24, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
- Sheesh, both sides are off-track here. First, the line about what the editors of TWS think about McGovern doesn't belong where it does. Perhaps it should be in a 'Criticism' section with quotes from critics followed by quotes from supporters, but not as an isolated quote in the section on his views.
- Now having said that, TWS is as reliable a news source as most anything you'll find quoted in a Wikipedia article (Newsweek, Atlantic Monthly, etc.), as Ron's quotes show. There is no doubt that one should be allowed to quote FACTS about what McGovern has said and done and attribute a TWS article as the source. And just because a news source does not admit bias does not mean it isn't biased; I can cite a dozen instances from 2004 when the NYT was playing liberal attack dog using page A1 as the weapon. Merzbow 01:02, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
More information on wikipedia policy of NPOV
Wikipedia describes NPOV as "absolute and non-negotiable." For more information on how to comply with this policy, please read Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. RonCram 15:41, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
- "The focus of a biographical article should be on the subject, not their critics." For a more complete understanding of this, please refer to WP:BLP. Inoculatedcities 23:59, 11 May 2006 (UTC)