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[[:Ramsay Bolton]] → {{no redirect|Ramsay Snow}} – Per [[WP:NPOVTITLE]]. Within the world of ''A Song of Ice and Fire'', Ramsay's legitimization document is itself controversial, as it was issued by a king who is himself a bastard born of incest between the queen consort and her brother, a King's Guard sworn to celibacy. Probably a majority of characters in both the books and show reject the authority of his legitimization documentation, and in the show his and his father's betrayal of the crown, and his own subsequent betrayal of his father, means that probably ''no one'' would call him "Bolton" except perhaps as a result of sloppy screenwriting. The only people who call him "Bolton" in the books are game-players who know Tommen is not a legitimate monarch but don't care, and people like Theon who are scared to death that he will torture them; since he's a fictional character there's no reason for us to be afraid of him. [[WP:COMMONNAME]] and the recognizability criterion do not really apply, since both are in common use in real-world secondary sources and are equally recognizable/meaningful for anyone familiar with the story. [[User:Hijiri88|Hijiri 88]] (<small>[[User talk:Hijiri88|聖]][[Special:Contributions/Hijiri88|やや]]</small>) 07:04, 26 July 2017 (UTC) |
[[:Ramsay Bolton]] → {{no redirect|Ramsay Snow}} – Per [[WP:NPOVTITLE]]. Within the world of ''A Song of Ice and Fire'', Ramsay's legitimization document is itself controversial, as it was issued by a king who is himself a bastard born of incest between the queen consort and her brother, a King's Guard sworn to celibacy. Probably a majority of characters in both the books and show reject the authority of his legitimization documentation, and in the show his and his father's betrayal of the crown, and his own subsequent betrayal of his father, means that probably ''no one'' would call him "Bolton" except perhaps as a result of sloppy screenwriting. The only people who call him "Bolton" in the books are game-players who know Tommen is not a legitimate monarch but don't care, and people like Theon who are scared to death that he will torture them; since he's a fictional character there's no reason for us to be afraid of him. [[WP:COMMONNAME]] and the recognizability criterion do not really apply, since both are in common use in real-world secondary sources and are equally recognizable/meaningful for anyone familiar with the story. [[User:Hijiri88|Hijiri 88]] (<small>[[User talk:Hijiri88|聖]][[Special:Contributions/Hijiri88|やや]]</small>) 07:04, 26 July 2017 (UTC) |
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:The basis for your argument seems very in-universe and OR to me; as this is a real-world encyclopedia, WP:COMMONNAME certainly applies and the name of the article should reflect the name by which the character is most commonly/popularly known in the real world. I know you feel strongly in general that the books are the primary topic for ''ASOIAF'' (and I don't disagree), but the popularity of the show has broadened its impact and certainly affected its mainstream perception. I don't know what the common name is at this point, but we shouldn't be using our interpretation of the storyline to determine it.— [[User:TAnthony|TAnthony]]<sup>[[User Talk:TAnthony|Talk]]</sup> 22:49, 26 July 2017 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''': Ramsay Bolton is the name the character is most known and called by. - [[User:AffeL|AffeL]] ([[User talk:AffeL|talk]]) 16:07, 26 July 2017 (UTC) |
*'''Oppose''': Ramsay Bolton is the name the character is most known and called by. - [[User:AffeL|AffeL]] ([[User talk:AffeL|talk]]) 16:07, 26 July 2017 (UTC) |
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::AffeL, we don't use the "official" names of fictional characters. There's no need to respect the wishes of Ramsay himself, because he doesn't exist. Most of the characters in the books/show have some specific motivation to do so (fear of retaliation, desire to hold up Tommen's baseless claim to the throne...). Even if we are only going by entertainment sources covering the show: given that the character was mentioned several times in Season Two and then became a major character for all of Seasons 3, 4 and 5, up to Season 6 episode 9, and "officially became" Ramsay Bolton a couple of episodes into Season 5, he was Ramsay Snow for a longer run of episodes. [[User:Hijiri88|Hijiri 88]] (<small>[[User talk:Hijiri88|聖]][[Special:Contributions/Hijiri88|やや]]</small>) 22:33, 26 July 2017 (UTC) |
::AffeL, we don't use the "official" names of fictional characters. There's no need to respect the wishes of Ramsay himself, because he doesn't exist. Most of the characters in the books/show have some specific motivation to do so (fear of retaliation, desire to hold up Tommen's baseless claim to the throne...). Even if we are only going by entertainment sources covering the show: given that the character was mentioned several times in Season Two and then became a major character for all of Seasons 3, 4 and 5, up to Season 6 episode 9, and "officially became" Ramsay Bolton a couple of episodes into Season 5, he was Ramsay Snow for a longer run of episodes. [[User:Hijiri88|Hijiri 88]] (<small>[[User talk:Hijiri88|聖]][[Special:Contributions/Hijiri88|やや]]</small>) 22:33, 26 July 2017 (UTC) |
Revision as of 22:49, 26 July 2017
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Requested move 26 July 2017
Ramsay Bolton → Ramsay Snow – Per WP:NPOVTITLE. Within the world of A Song of Ice and Fire, Ramsay's legitimization document is itself controversial, as it was issued by a king who is himself a bastard born of incest between the queen consort and her brother, a King's Guard sworn to celibacy. Probably a majority of characters in both the books and show reject the authority of his legitimization documentation, and in the show his and his father's betrayal of the crown, and his own subsequent betrayal of his father, means that probably no one would call him "Bolton" except perhaps as a result of sloppy screenwriting. The only people who call him "Bolton" in the books are game-players who know Tommen is not a legitimate monarch but don't care, and people like Theon who are scared to death that he will torture them; since he's a fictional character there's no reason for us to be afraid of him. WP:COMMONNAME and the recognizability criterion do not really apply, since both are in common use in real-world secondary sources and are equally recognizable/meaningful for anyone familiar with the story. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 07:04, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
- The basis for your argument seems very in-universe and OR to me; as this is a real-world encyclopedia, WP:COMMONNAME certainly applies and the name of the article should reflect the name by which the character is most commonly/popularly known in the real world. I know you feel strongly in general that the books are the primary topic for ASOIAF (and I don't disagree), but the popularity of the show has broadened its impact and certainly affected its mainstream perception. I don't know what the common name is at this point, but we shouldn't be using our interpretation of the storyline to determine it.— TAnthonyTalk 22:49, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose: Ramsay Bolton is the name the character is most known and called by. - AffeL (talk) 16:07, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
- AffeL, we don't use the "official" names of fictional characters. There's no need to respect the wishes of Ramsay himself, because he doesn't exist. Most of the characters in the books/show have some specific motivation to do so (fear of retaliation, desire to hold up Tommen's baseless claim to the throne...). Even if we are only going by entertainment sources covering the show: given that the character was mentioned several times in Season Two and then became a major character for all of Seasons 3, 4 and 5, up to Season 6 episode 9, and "officially became" Ramsay Bolton a couple of episodes into Season 5, he was Ramsay Snow for a longer run of episodes. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 22:33, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
- Also note to closer: The above user has been going around reverting a lot of my edits because I'm the one who made them over the past two months or so. Take that for what it's worth. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 22:33, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
- Hijiri, you seem to be suggesting that AffeL's opposition to this move has something to do with your ongoing rivalry, and these kinds of accusations are not appropriate for this discussion, thanks. Also it shouldn't surprise you that you two are on opposite sides, LOL. As far as the move itself, what are the sources saying? I think the the TV series coverage will be overwhelming and decide this one way or the other.— TAnthonyTalk 22:43, 26 July 2017 (UTC)