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It is sound to discuss 4th millennium population history, but this is not generally what we usually mean by "Ancient Egypt". Ancient Egypt generally refers to the 3rd to 2nd millennia (you know, the pyramids, the sphinx, Tutankhamun, Ramesses, things like that). If you ''want'' to find a "Black African" Ancient Egypt, you have to go back to the 5th and 4th millennia (and then to the southern fringe). This will be easy to straighten out, in intruducing an article structure that is actually historical, with separate "pre-dynastic", "Old Kingdom", "Middle Kingdom" and "New Kingdom" sections. People will then be able to look up the period they are interested in. Discussion of pre-dynastic populations is perfectly on-topic, and should remain in the article, but it needs to be isolated from discussions of [Classical, Bronze Age] "Ancient Egypt" proper. [[User:Dbachmann|dab]] <small>[[User_talk:Dbachmann|(𒁳)]]</small> 14:21, 30 October 2007 (UTC) |
It is sound to discuss 4th millennium population history, but this is not generally what we usually mean by "Ancient Egypt". Ancient Egypt generally refers to the 3rd to 2nd millennia (you know, the pyramids, the sphinx, Tutankhamun, Ramesses, things like that). If you ''want'' to find a "Black African" Ancient Egypt, you have to go back to the 5th and 4th millennia (and then to the southern fringe). This will be easy to straighten out, in intruducing an article structure that is actually historical, with separate "pre-dynastic", "Old Kingdom", "Middle Kingdom" and "New Kingdom" sections. People will then be able to look up the period they are interested in. Discussion of pre-dynastic populations is perfectly on-topic, and should remain in the article, but it needs to be isolated from discussions of [Classical, Bronze Age] "Ancient Egypt" proper. [[User:Dbachmann|dab]] <small>[[User_talk:Dbachmann|(𒁳)]]</small> 14:21, 30 October 2007 (UTC) |
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Dab, this goes to show that you're truly pov-pushuing your nonsense and imposing your own original research. You say that "black Egypt" goes back to the 5th millennium B.C., yet why would they change from black to non-black in a matter of of a couple of thousand years given no notable displacement of the population? Continuity is noted by various anthropologists so if you were to impose this label on early Egyptians, the same would apply for later material, of course also with a slow process of amalgamation. Your views are obviously fringe, socio-political, diffusionist nonsense. |
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==progress== |
==progress== |
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in spite of the surreal ado on talk, the article has made slow progress. the [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Race_of_ancient_Egyptians&oldid=168123878 present] version mostly isolates the fringe material in a "Controversies" section, where it can remain for the time being. The actual topic is addressed under "Population characteristics". Further development should focus on giving a clearer diachronic structure to this "Population characteristics" section. The "Controversies", ceterum censeo, are [[WP:UNDUE]] and belong merged elsewhere. [[User:Dbachmann|dab]] <small>[[User_talk:Dbachmann|(𒁳)]]</small> 17:49, 30 October 2007 (UTC) |
in spite of the surreal ado on talk, the article has made slow progress. the [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Race_of_ancient_Egyptians&oldid=168123878 present] version mostly isolates the fringe material in a "Controversies" section, where it can remain for the time being. The actual topic is addressed under "Population characteristics". Further development should focus on giving a clearer diachronic structure to this "Population characteristics" section. The "Controversies", ceterum censeo, are [[WP:UNDUE]] and belong merged elsewhere. [[User:Dbachmann|dab]] <small>[[User_talk:Dbachmann|(𒁳)]]</small> 17:49, 30 October 2007 (UTC) |
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Fine.. But in the meantime do not drastically alter or rearrange content without gaining consensus.. We've already reached this agreement on the talk page.. Your point of view is not priority, which is why we discuss things on the talk page and go through a consensus process. |
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''the Badarian sample has been described as forming a morphological cluster with Nubian, Tigrean, and other southern (or \Negroid") groups (Morant, 1935, 1937; Mukherjee et al., 1955; Nutter, |
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1958, Strouhal, 1971; Angel, 1972; Keita, 1990). Cranial nonmetric trait studies have found this group to be similar to other Egyptians, including much later material, (Berry and Berry, 1967, 1972)'' - Zakrzewski (2007) |
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Also please see the consensus view on the now discredited dynastic race near east invasion theory.. |
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''Though invasion theories would persist among a few Egyptologists for some time, and even see a resurrection in popular works as late as the 1990s, most scholars abandoned their search for the foreign origins of Egyptian civilization. Today, we look instead for indigenous development and the roots of dynastic Egyptian culture within the '''Nile Valley''' itself and the immediate territory surrounding this cradle of civilization.'' - [http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/prehistory.htm The Origin of Egyptian Civilization] |
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The fact that you attribute this to "pan-Africanism exposes your own agenda and not anyone else's.[[User:Taharqa|Taharqa]] 20:00, 30 October 2007 (UTC) |
Revision as of 20:00, 30 October 2007
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This page has archives. Sections older than 15 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III. |
Archive, Plan and Get to Work
I would like to suggest that we archive this talkpage as soon as everyone has finished their 'debates' about specific content (which will only have to be brought up again later, so it's better to just conclude them for the time being and put the energy to better use) and start with a clean, pre-organized talkpage dedicated to constructive discussion with a view towards actually resolving the troublesome issues. As it seems impossible to carry on simultaneous discussions at multiple levels on an article such as this, the topics on this talkpage should be discussed in 'natural' order, i.e. an order which is conducive to building up real, long-lasting consensus unlikely to be overturned upon the appearance of a new editor or two (providing they actually read the talkpage before hitting the 'edit' tab).
In my opinion, the first thing that needs to be discussed is the exact Scope of the article. Some of you disagree, I know, and you should voice your opinions at the appropriate time in the appropriate place. I think that place is at the head of a new talkpage. However, all discussion not directly and intimately related to the task-list set forth on the new page should be postponed until the time comes to discuss it. If we work together, we will get through the whole thing eventually.
If someone agrees with me, archives and creates the new talkpage, please add a section for 'New Additions', 'New Research' or something similar in addition to one on 'Scope' so that editors who are still researching will have a place to note any recent discoveries which might play a role in the deliberations over the organization of the article. Varoon Arya 23:59, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes, someone please archive this talk page so that we can start over.. Way too much bickering (that I admit to have been involved in) and debating going on that distracts away from progressive conversation.Taharqa 16:12, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
- so, just archive it and start over, eh? How about you stop bickering, Taharqa, and actually address the issues raised up front? This article could be cleaned up and split into two valid article in a matter of hours as soon as you stop trolling. --dab (𒁳) 08:22, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- Dbachmann, there is no concensus on splitting this article. All the sections contain valid informations for helping the readers have a broader picture about the issue of the race of the ancient Egyptians. You are not obliged to like everything written here. There are things in the article myself do not want to see. But they have to be there since they are significant and have been brought by other contributors. Who are you to try to impose your will on other editors? Why do people have to repeat what Wikidudeman explained to you days ago? Be reasonable, move forward, and stop blocking the positive work of editing the article.--Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka 09:32, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- that's so many words. Wikipedia is about showing a good faith effort and putting the facts on the table. Then there can be friendly debate between bona fide editors and informed compromise on specific points. What you are doing is just abusing Wikipedia's consensus principle to dodge policy and stall encyclopedic discussion. Show some effort in discussing this encyclopedically and we can have a debate. Wikilawyering without show of encyclopedic editing is trolling in my book, and I am not interested in debating that. Your "broader picture" translates to ideological soapboxing, and Wikipedia simply isn't for that, sorry. I repeat that I am not here to impose "my will", but Wikipedia policy, which asks you to dump all unencyclopedic and unacademic blather from this page, and report strictly on academic debates without further ado. dab (𒁳) 10:19, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- Then, start another RfC on the subject of the split, to see if you can get support for this idea from a wider audience. So far, I don't see that you have garnered significant support for your position, but in all honesty, an RfC could change that. Barring that, I would ask that you respect consensus.--Ramdrake 11:39, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- that's so many words. Wikipedia is about showing a good faith effort and putting the facts on the table. Then there can be friendly debate between bona fide editors and informed compromise on specific points. What you are doing is just abusing Wikipedia's consensus principle to dodge policy and stall encyclopedic discussion. Show some effort in discussing this encyclopedically and we can have a debate. Wikilawyering without show of encyclopedic editing is trolling in my book, and I am not interested in debating that. Your "broader picture" translates to ideological soapboxing, and Wikipedia simply isn't for that, sorry. I repeat that I am not here to impose "my will", but Wikipedia policy, which asks you to dump all unencyclopedic and unacademic blather from this page, and report strictly on academic debates without further ado. dab (𒁳) 10:19, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- Dbachmann, there is no concensus on splitting this article. All the sections contain valid informations for helping the readers have a broader picture about the issue of the race of the ancient Egyptians. You are not obliged to like everything written here. There are things in the article myself do not want to see. But they have to be there since they are significant and have been brought by other contributors. Who are you to try to impose your will on other editors? Why do people have to repeat what Wikidudeman explained to you days ago? Be reasonable, move forward, and stop blocking the positive work of editing the article.--Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka 09:32, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Where's the context?
This article needs a *history* section that explains that there was a time when european scholars insisted that the egyptians were white. Only in the context of the racism of its day do the theories of Afro-centrism make sense. As it stands this article talks about the Afro-centric view out of context and fails to mention Eurocentrism at all.
I do not think it's a good idea to put all of the Afro-centric information in a separate article, it will become a POV fork. Frankly, MOST of the people who discuss the Egyptians in-terms of "race" are either Eurocentric or Afrocentric scholars. Most other people consider them to be "Egyptians" and "Africans" and leave it at that.
The core subject of this article is the history of how this debate became important and the interplay between the people in the debte. The question: "what race were they?" is comparatively unimportant. Right now the article takes the question at face value.futurebird 16:17, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- I agree. Wikidudeman (talk) 15:37, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
"there was a time when european scholars insisted that the egyptians were white" -- this is an Afrocentric myth, or at least a gross exaggeration. The theories of Afrocentrism do not make any "sense" academically. They do make "sense" psychologically, from the desire to build a sense of African-American ethnic pride. This has nothing to do with Egyptology, or alleged Eurocentrism therein. If you want to denounce racism in the 20th century USA, denounce racism in the 20th century USA, but don't take your frustration out on Egyptology. --dab (𒁳) 16:03, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- That makes no sense. futurebird 16:17, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- Let's decide the name and actual topic before we argue about content. Wikidudeman (talk) 16:38, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm new around here, what's wrong with the title as it is? And why is there a merge tag? futurebird 17:27, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- Basically, because there's been discussion about whether the article and/or title is POV and about whether the existing content might be better merged into the other article. The essential question is about the relative weight to give the theory of ancient Egyptians as white, the similar theories that they were black, the evidence and supporters of each, and the objective scientific evidence. John Carter 17:34, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
The primary significance of this debate is historical. Through viewing the debate on the race of the Egyptians you can see how ideas about race have changed in the history of the past few 100 years. At first it was unthinkable that they were anything but white. Then people questioned this idea and tried to prove they were all black. The current idea seems to reject both-- in the sense that it says that race has a different meaning today than it did in the past. However, the "Afro-centrists" were right about a few things and their work is important. They were right that sub-Saharan cultures and people had interactions with and were able to influence, and be influenced by, the Egyptians. Some of the Egyptians were of sub-Saharan origin. The Eurocentric story of early history that describes sub-Saharan Africa as "tribal", "unimportant" and uncivilized is not taken seriously anymore.
However, saying the Egyptians "were black" or "were white" is meaningless since these are modern social constructs that can't be applied to the past. Afro-centric scholars in America angered some old-school Egyptologists because they suggested that African Americas could be "proud of the accomplishments of their ancestors in egypt" --this was seen as unfairly "claiming" egyptian achievements. But, frankly, it's not that different from the eurocentric habit of describing the accomplishments of the Greeks as "the basis of American civilization. etc." White Americans are no more ancient Greek than African Americans are ancient Egyptian! (well, except for maybe the real Greek-Americans ... but even then....) All of these civilizations are human and we can all be proud of them.
This entire debate is a response the the systematic denegration and denial of the existence of black culture and the personhood of black people. --And the article fails to reflect this. futurebird 17:48, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- I'm not going to disagree with you on any of the points, except for, maybe, to a slight degree, say that it is possible that the moderns who champion the "continuations" of earlier cultures could take some pride in their "ancestor" culture. But even I think that's probably a small point. Unfortunately, I'm not sure how much any of what we've said really is very helpful to defining what the stated scope of this article, and possibly related articles, should be. Personally, I rather favor maybe a series of articles relating to color/race, with one central article about the "colors" and modern scientific views of them, and some individual articles on things like Ainu/Japanese relations, adding that the Ainu are now seen as being more direct descendants of the Japanese ancestors, much to the dismay of the Japanese, the Aryan race theory and its numerous flaws, Tamil/Hindu relations, and so on. Just one opinion, of course. John Carter 18:01, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm trying to outline the sort of changes this article needs to make to become neutral. The article makes it seem like Afro-centrists were just crazy and came up with these ideas out of the blue for no good reason. But, you need to understand that that at the time there was a hypothesis, called "Hamitic hypothesis" that said that in sub-Saharan Africa the evidence found for ancient civilizations was due to "people from the north" not from the black African people who live there! And this idea was taken seriously because white scholars just couldn't wrap their minds around the idea that Africans could have a civilization. It's only because of the work of Afro-centric scholars that it is gone. When you live in a racist society and discover one instance of flat-out lies designed to degrade your person-hood-- there is no reason to trust ANY of the other existing scholarship. That was the Afro centric perspective. And even if they took it too far at times we all owe them a great debt for uncovering the truth in some areas.
So, I'd rather not see their work treated as if it was "just some crack pot fringe theory" --They had valid reasons for reaching those conclusions. Just as Galileo had good reasons to think that a hanging chain made a parabolic arc rather than a cycloid. futurebird 18:27, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- I note that the Hamitic article could use some work. Having said that, this article could certainly link to it to establish the "prehistory" of the existing debate. So that would be one way to "start" the article. I'm afraid I still don't personally feel sure as to what the content of the article should be though, or how to relate it to other subjects in the same general field, if at all. John Carter 18:43, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Who's "fringe"?
I may have missed this in the extensive discussions in the archives, but I'm still not clear on who's considered a fringe source for this topic. For the benefit of me, and anyone else who was drawn in by the posts on the fringe theory noticeboard, could someone concisely say which sections of the article cover the "fringy" material, and which sources the fringe theories come from? --Akhilleus (talk) 15:44, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- The Afrocentric parts arguing that ancient Egyptians were "black". Wikidudeman (talk) 15:45, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Actually, that is not a fringe view, it is a socio-political one. We're not pushing a racial agenda here in that one particular subjective view on race is to be shunned over another. "black" is a relative and subjective social term, completely separate from science, it is not a theory. A fringe theory is more along the lines of diffusionist ideas or far-fetched migration hypotheses..
- Thanks, but I'm looking for something more specific: are you talking about the entire "controversies" section, or what? Is Cheikh Anta Diop a fringe source? --Akhilleus (talk) 15:48, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- Essentially all of the arguments about the Sphinx, Everything in the controversies section as well as everything in the "other views" section would be considered fringe. The sphinx arguments are presented as being mostly historic though. Wikidudeman (talk) 15:50, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Would you like to clarify specifically what is and how according to wikipedia? I see a few historical observations and one opinion from an Ortofondist in the Sphinx section, but what is this "fringe" you're referring to?Taharqa 08:08, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
the entire topic is presented along the lines of fringe "controversies". The truth of the matter is that there is no "controversy" at all, not outside Afrocentrism (and Afrocentrism works on a priori knowledge). The topic is valid. It should be presented along the lines of genetic and anthropological studies, without resorting to "black" and "African" at every other turn. The only people for whom the question of "Black Egypt" is even meaningful are the Afrocentrist ideologists. Afrocentrism is notable in itself, and has it's own article. This is perfectly simple. Rewrite the article factoring out the continual afrocentrist begging the question, and move Diop and friends to Afrocentrist Egyptology where they belong. People keep arguing about this for pages on end just on grounds of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Apart from that powerful impediment to encyclopedicity, there is really nothing here that would require further debate. dab (𒁳) 15:56, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- Well let's start with the name of the article and get a consensus on that, then we can move onto the actual topic of the article and then determine what content should go where. Wikidudeman (talk) 16:13, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- Dbachmann does not know the history of Egyptology! Egyptology began by negating the Black race as being the race of the Egyptians. Maurizio Damiano-Appia is an Italian Egyptologist. He is the one who denounced racism in Egyptology. Just read Egitto e Nubia, Milano, 1995, p. 8: "...è data per scontata l'idea di un popolo di razza bianca, che creò una cultura meditarranea che poco aveva a che fare con l'Africa se non una quasi casuale collocazione geographica...con mentalità razzista, la civiltà doveva essere bianca per definizione". Is this man Afrocentrist? Where are you going to put this? In Afrocentric Egyptology? Actually, I am not happy with the title of the sub-section Cheilh Anta Diop. There is more than Diop there. Even Diop. This man presented the results of the melanin test on mummies at the Cairo Egyptological Conference in 1974. Then, Nobody contradicted him. Dbachmann, you need to learn more and stop insulting African Americans. Jean-François Champollion, the father of Egyptology has to put things in order about the origin and race of the ancient Egyptians. It is a controversy in Egyptology from the beginning of this field. It was in 1828 that Champollion wrote in Précis du système hiéroglyphique des anciens Egyptiens, p. 455: "Mais ce n'est point à l'histoire seule de l'Egypte proprement dite que les études hiéroglyphiques peuvent fournir de précieuses lumières; elles nous montrent déjà la Nubie comme ayant, aux époques les plus reculées, participé à tous les avantages de la civilisation égyptienne. L'importance, le nombre et surtout l'antiquité des monuments qu'on y admire, édifices contemporains de tout ce que la plaine de Thèbes offre de plus ancien, sont déjà, pour l'historien, des faits capitaux qui l'arrêtent en ébralant les bases du système adopté jusqu'ici sur l'origine du peuple égyptien". For Champollion, p. 456: "les Egyptiens seraient une race propre à l'Afrique". Don't you see here a controversy about the origin and the race of the ancient Egyptians? Is Champollion Afrocentrist? In many Dictionaries, ancient Egyptians are said to be Caucasians or Whites. Dbachmann, how do you call this? Stop amusing people with your rethoric. We are many here to study the history of Egyptology. I can give you more facts without quoting any African or African American. The issue is not about Afrocentrism, but about the race of ancient Egyptians.--Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka 17:13, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- Well let's start with the name of the article and get a consensus on that, then we can move onto the actual topic of the article and then determine what content should go where. Wikidudeman (talk) 16:13, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
"In many Dictionaries, ancient Egyptians are said to be Caucasians or Whites." I have heard this too. I think we should add some sources to the article that show this. Can you suggest any? futurebird 17:26, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
The "Hamitic Hypothesis" was widespread in the 19th century and early decads of the 20th. Light-skinned people (perhaps even Aryans) were supposed to have created Egyptian civilization and supposedly had spread oveer Africa where they were a small ruling class. A major proponent was Grafton Elliot Smith [1], who was also a hyperdiffusionist and claimed that the Egyptians had influenced all the other civilizations. Afrocentric diffusionists make the same claims and cite Grafton Smith, except that now, the Egyptians are black. Itzcoatl 22:13, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- The folks who reconstructed King Tut's face described his features as "Caucasian". Wikidudeman (talk) 00:04, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
The difficulties in forensic reconstruction addresses this problematic issue and also that is false.. The American team, or namely the leader, Dr. Susan C Anton, based on Alveolar prognathism, crania, among other things lead her to conclude that he was African as she notes that these traits aren't consistent with Europeans. She also states in a letter that she guessed North Africa based on the peculiarity of the nose, with north Africa simply meaning "above the equator" and not necessarily Morocco, etc. and that the nose alone in no way suggests that he'd had any non-African ancestry (paraphrasing).. We've went over this a while ago -
"In the words of Susan Antón, a member of the American team, "Our group did not, in fact, find Tut to be a 'Caucasoid North African.' We classified him as African based on many of the [skull's facio-cranial] features...."
With regard to any finding of European origins, Antón further commented that she "determined the statistical association was very low and, therefore, based on the nonmetric characters, was not likely to be accurate."
The team refused, however, to assign a specific racial designation to the specimen, citing inherent problems with the concept of race.
Further, the Americans did not assign skin or eye color. Referring to the skull's pronounced dolichocephalism, alveolar prognathism, "large teeth," receding chin and sloping cranium, Antón stated she was "in general agreement that, based on the cranial skeleton, an estimate of African is appropriate." - [1]
Also, what does this matter? Scientists also have studied the Sphinx' supposed "negro" countenance, along with one of Tut's ancestors, Tao the brave, among other 18th Dynasty royalty in Harris and Week's "X-ray Atlas of the Royal Mummies" (Chicago: University of Chicago, 1980). These labels are subjective which is why they're restricted to media reports and not peer reviewed studies and which is why Saleh and now even Hawass can easily disagree with the results, including the American team. Btw, Anton was the leader of the American team who were the only ones to do a blind study. I don't want to link to any forums, but she also has an open letter addressing this that is widely available on the net.
Also please see the [http://www.aaanet.org/stmts/racepp.htm American Anthropological Association Statement on "Race"] since even IF it were applicable, "Caucasians" don't exist, and neither do "Negroes". I just don't see what point you were trying to make with this response.Taharqa 06:20, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
I thought Wikidudeman was just trying to give an example of what I asked for above... that is "In many Dictionaries, ancient Egyptians are said to be Caucasians or Whites." as an example of Eurocentrism. (???) Now I'm confused. futurebird 07:09, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
^I'm actually confused also now so I may have wrote that for nothing and only confused you.... or not. We'll see I guess. It's inane..Taharqa 08:08, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
- Futurebird, for now I can give texts in Italian. I will have to find also something written in English in some old dictionaries. Encyclopedia Universale 3, Milano, 1984, p. 465: "Per l'evoluzione della civiltà egizia si rivelano quindi di fondamentale importanza, in correspondenza con il naqadiano secondo, l'arrivo di un popolo straniero culturalmente più avanzato, verosimilmente di stirpe semitica e proveniente dall'Asia anteriore attraverso il Golfo Persico e il Mar Rosso, e la sua fusione con la preesistente popolazione camitica. I nuovi venuti esercitarono un profondo unflusso su tutti gli aspetti della vita nella valle del Nilo, elevandone notevolmente il livello". Dizionario encyclopedico italiano, Roma, 1956, p. 284: "E. Smith ha descritto come prevalente un tipo da lui detto Proto-egiziano, piccolo di statua (...), a cranio allungato, stretto e piuttosto alto; i capelli erano lisci o ondulati, di color bruno scuro come gli occhi, la pelosità poco svulappata, la pelle brunastra, la facia ovale, con grandi occhi e naso a dorso rilevato e pinne un po' larghe. Questo tipo, che rappresenta evidentemente una delle razze medi. degli Europeidi, continua nelle età successive a formare il nucleo essenziale della popolazione dell'Eg.". Hotep!--Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka 09:29, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
"In many Dictionaries, ancient Egyptians are said to be Caucasians or Whites." I have heard this too. I think we should add some sources to the article that show this.: futurebird, I trust you have "heard" this. I have heard it dozens of times, on this talkpage, and in afrocentric rants all over the internet. That doesn't make it encyclopedic. Early Egyptologists were no morons. There may have been the occasional Nordicist in the 19th century, but these people were lunatic fringe even back then. It will not do to contort Egyptological mainstream, even early Egyptological mainstream, to serve some sort of afrocentric "we were wronged, so now we're wronging you back" ideology. The "Hamitic Hypothesis" doesn't equal "Caucasoid" or "Nordic" Egyptians, and in any case, by the New Kingdom, Egyptians certainly were just as "Hamitic" as Egyptians are today. Your famous "African crania" concern the pre-dynastic period back in the 4th millennium, fully 2,000 years before Ramesses or Tutankhamun. Afrocentrist Egyptology, briefly, goes like this: "hey, we found an 'African cranium' dating to 4000 BC. Hence Egypt was Black, qed." This is not serious, and it is beyond me why we are still debating this. dab (𒁳) 10:18, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Name of article
I've archived a lot of the older discussions including some newer ones that seemed to have been repeating themselves over and over. I think that after I rewrote the article last week it was a lot easier to determine the direction of it and I think that we need to do that again right now. I previously asked this question but now I want to start a straw poll for the name of the article. Everyone who agrees to a specific name please just sign your name under it as I will demonstrate. You can sign under more than one if you are ok with either name. Also feel free to introduce a new name for the straw poll. Some of the names are previous names of the article and have bad grammar and phrasing, but I'm introducing them anyway. Do not add comments. Wikidudeman (talk) 13:30, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- I've taken the initiative to contact some of the projects which might be interested in this article, including Discrimination and Anthropology. I hope that we hear from some of them as well. And I would like to express my gratitude to all those who have worked on this article. I am aware that it can be a very controversial subject, and that the work to improve it is almost always going to be controversial. The work to improve the article, controversial or not, deserves our recognition and thanks in any event. John Carter 14:14, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you John!--Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka 14:22, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- I'm going to ignore the "no comments" rule for now to point out that this article seems to forma continuity with Category:Origin hypotheses of ethnic groups. Perhaps we could go with a name along the those lines of those article titles.--Pharos 20:18, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- Maybe like "Origins of the Ancient Egyptians"? John Carter 20:32, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- The problem is that there is clear scientific facts concerning the "origin" of the ancient Egyptians. The real controversy seems to be over their skin color or tone and physical characteristics along the lines of race. Also, When I said "do not add comments" I meant not in the area where you signed your name under the article title, just so it doesn't get muddied up with debate. Commenting here is fine. Wikidudeman (talk) 23:37, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- Sorry for all the additional work here, dude. Knowing that this is probably idle speculation, is there any evidence of the characteristics of the pre-dynastic upper and lower kingdoms? It might just be a guess, but I get the impression that they may have themselves possessed differing "racial" characteristics. John Carter 00:16, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
- The problem is that there is clear scientific facts concerning the "origin" of the ancient Egyptians. The real controversy seems to be over their skin color or tone and physical characteristics along the lines of race. Also, When I said "do not add comments" I meant not in the area where you signed your name under the article title, just so it doesn't get muddied up with debate. Commenting here is fine. Wikidudeman (talk) 23:37, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- Maybe like "Origins of the Ancient Egyptians"? John Carter 20:32, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- Surely "origin" includes "racial origin". It's basically the same issue as in all the Category:Origin hypotheses of ethnic groups articles. I'm going to add this as an option.--Pharos 08:47, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, they were essentially the same as indigenous Egyptians from other periods, though the populations then had more homogeneity. Wikidudeman (talk) 00:23, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
- That's true only in that the populations of Upper and Lower Egypt were somewhat isolated prior to the unification and the onset of dynastic Egypt, so *each* was independently more homogeneous up to that point. The distinction is not as clear afterwards and the entire population essentially becomes more like each other, and eventually more homogenous as a whole. BTW, the article is looking good, but it is still structured in the manner of the controversy about the topic, which perhaps seems inevitable. I made my choices for the title based on that. — Zerida 01:30, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
- It is also time for Dbachmann to make his choice for the title. He is making too much noise elsewhere in the talk page. He has not to come later and say I don't like the title. It will mean to go angainst the concensus. Dbachmann, wake up! (just laugh!).--Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka 10:59, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
- That's true only in that the populations of Upper and Lower Egypt were somewhat isolated prior to the unification and the onset of dynastic Egypt, so *each* was independently more homogeneous up to that point. The distinction is not as clear afterwards and the entire population essentially becomes more like each other, and eventually more homogenous as a whole. BTW, the article is looking good, but it is still structured in the manner of the controversy about the topic, which perhaps seems inevitable. I made my choices for the title based on that. — Zerida 01:30, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, they were essentially the same as indigenous Egyptians from other periods, though the populations then had more homogeneity. Wikidudeman (talk) 00:23, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Race of ancient Egyptians (current name)
- Wikidudeman (talk) 13:30, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- John Carter 14:14, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- --Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka 14:18, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- futurebird 17:22, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- Muntuwandi 17:23, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- Captmondo 20:34, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- --Ramdrake 21:05, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- Yahel Guhan 23:45, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- SenseOnes 01:33, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
- Taharqa 06:20, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Ethnicity of ancient Egyptians
- Wikidudeman (talk) 13:30, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Appearance of ancient Egyptians
- Wikidudeman (talk) 13:30, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- John Carter 14:14, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Race and ancient Egypt
Race of Ancient Egyptians controversy
- John Carter 14:14, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- Itzcoatl 20:57, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- — Zerida 01:30, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Controversy over race of Ancient Egyptians
- John Carter 14:14, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- --Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka 14:19, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- Captmondo 20:34, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- Itzcoatl 20:58, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- Ramdrake 21:06, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- — Zerida 01:30, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Controversy over racial characteristics of Ancient Egyptians
- John Carter 14:14, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- Itzcoatl 20:58, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- — Zerida 01:30, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Controversy over appearance of Ancient Egyptians
- Wikidudeman (talk) 13:30, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- John Carter 14:14, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- — Zerida 01:30, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Ancient Egypt and race
- — Zerida 01:30, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Origin of the ancient Egyptians
- Pharos 08:49, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Racial affinities of ancient Egyptians
- I suggested this shortly before the poll but someone deleted the comment. 70.15.116.59 15:22, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
all of these titles will invite the discussion of afrocentric material. I don't care which title we choose, just as long as it is either about afrocentrism, or free of afrocentrism, but doesn't indulge in WP:SYN. Can I take it for granted that all people voting here are agreed to chuck the "Afrocentrism" material completely, then? dab (𒁳) 17:42, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Bosch and Newman
The population characteristics state.
- In summary, ancient Egypt is thought by many scholars to have been a melting pot of various Nile Valley, North African, Saharan and Levantine peoples since earliest times.[9][20] Some theories have postulated that the ancient Egyptians received significant demographic influence from the Near East, and with minor demographic effects from regions further south.
This statement is allegedly sourced from this article Population history of North Africa: Evidence from classical genetic markers. Firstly this article refers to North Africans in general and not to the ancient egyptians. So the discussion is also about Tunisians, Libyans,Morrocans and Algerians. There are several problems with the article. It claims that Proto-Afro-Asiatic originated in the levant, when the weight of evidence has currently shifted to an African origin. The second quote is insufficient, it just states Newman, 1995. there is no way to verify the information. The general consensus among scholars is that the Ancient Egyptians were an indigenous african population. Whether they were black or white is controversial, but they were very much an African people. Muntuwandi 03:46, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
- While the race of the Ancient Egyptians has no interest to me (and per definition this article), my curiosity has been arisen over the constant battle going on here. It is quite interesting to watch.
In summary, ancient Egypt is thought by many scholars to have been a melting pot of various Nile Valley, North African, Saharan and Levantine peoples since earliest times. Some theories have postulated that the ancient Egyptians received significant demographic influence from the Near East, and with minor demographic effects from regions further south, while others postulate that the ancient Egyptians belonged to a primarily African descent group, with relatively little significant outside influences from the Near East. Recent demographic analysis done by some anthropologists has led to the conclusion that there was an overall population continuity stretching from the Neolithic into dynastic times, with small amounts of foreign admixture.
In summary, ancient Egypt is thought by many scholars to have been a melting pot of various Nile Valley, North African, Saharan and Levantine peoples. Scholars generally believe that the Ancient Egyptians were an indigenous African population and would only receive significant influence from the near east after the establishment of the Egyptian civilization. Jared Diamond states: "local hunter-gatherers simply added Southwest Asian domesticates and farming and herding techniques to their own diet of wild plants and animals, then gradually phased out the wild foods. That is, what arrived to launch food production in Egypt was foreign crops and animals, not foreign peoples" Recent demographic analysis done by some anthropologists has led to the conclusion that there was an overall population continuity stretching from the Neolithic into dynastic times, with small amounts of foreign admixture.
- In just a few hours a paragraph received a completely different meaning. This is just an example, and by no means the only one, in fact it goes on all this time, with no side being better than the other. Here presumably the editor did not like the wording of the original paragraph nor the sources for it – which by the way is locatable in a matter of minutes (Newman is used multiply times on wiki). A nice example of the hopelessness of this article, and yet the fun to watch the talk page. The latter version is in my opinion the more POV one. Twthmoses 05:16, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
- James L. Newman, The Peopling of Africa: A Geographic Interpretation, Yale University Press, New Haven, 1995.
- I don't think the meanings of paragraphs are supposed to remain the same. They should be changed if the information is not an accurate reflection of the source. Muntuwandi 05:20, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
- And how would you know that, that this is not an accurate reflection of the source? You apparently have not read Newman! Yet another excellent example of the fun of this article. Twthmoses 05:30, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
- One problem with inadequate footnotes is that one cannot be sure exactly what is being referenced. In any case, here is a quote from Newman [2] "Agriculture seems to have reached Egypt through contact diffusion rather than through immigrants or invaders. The material cultural continuity from preceding times is considerable, and cemeteries have yielded comparable skeletal remains . Consequently , a fairly safe conclusion is that the language spoken was the immediate ancestor of the Egyptian branch of Afroasiatic represented in the hieroglyphics. it evolved into the demotic script, which in turn became Coptic." Itzcoatl 17:10, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Any sources that are not about ancient Egypt need to go. It's off topic and original research to keep them in. Based on what you have said we need to remove this. futurebird 03:54, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
- Valid opinion. A lot of stuff in the article needs to go I believe, if that was to be carried out. Some of the sources in the article, are they even about ancient Egypt? I saw you mentioned the Hamitic hypothesis above on this talk page, which is connected to ancient Egypt in what way? Twthmoses 05:16, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
- Twtmoses, you keep saying that you have no interest in the article, but you keep making contributions to the talk page. Isn't that a contradiction. Muntuwandi 05:23, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
- No not at all, I kind of like the fast moving of this talk page (finger pointing upon finger pointing) – and I also am interested in the Sphinx, which got me here in the first place (and the section is totally crappy) Twthmoses 05:34, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Twthmoses, please don't take this the wrong way by I find your tone condescending and some of your comments on the talk page are unhelpful.futurebird 05:53, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
- What way should I take it? You seem more interesting in my person, rather than the context of the discussion (btw this is general theme across all talk pages for this article, not specified you). You made a comment, I address it – what is the problem? Twthmoses 06:03, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Of course if the sources don't reflect what is being said then it has no business being there. Seems pretty clear cut..Taharqa 06:28, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
- Hmm, apparently I’m a little slow today, so I’m just going to ask instead. Who has read Newman? Muntuwandi?, futurebird?, Taharqa? Now if nobody has, and that is only if nobody has – how is it possible to make a statement that the information is not an accurate reflection of the source? How is this article going anywhere if sources are disregarded, based on nothing –well, other then you don’t like them? Come on!! No wonder there is a neutrality and factual accuracy tag on this article. And note, for reference, I did not say Newman was relevant, I asked how do you know he is not? (the editor that removed him, did not even know what book it was). Twthmoses 06:57, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
- I just posted a direct quote from Newman above. I have the book and if there is another specific dubt about what it says ask.Itzcoatl 19:45, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
- There is a valid question which arises from the above. What specific definition of "ancient Egyptians" do we use? "Ancient Egypt" according to our article covers a period of 3500 years. The ethnic characteristics of the population at the beginning of that period were almost certainly changed by the end of that period, and it probably contributes to the questions raised by the article to not at least try to draw distinctions between at least the beginning and end of that era. John Carter 14:01, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
this is the main problem in the part of the article that actually discusses scholarship:
- "would only receive significant influence from the near east after the establishment of the Egyptian civilization." (emphasis mine)
this is the "Pan-Africanist" spin given to the findings, betraying that to Pan-Africanists, "Ancient Egypt" is really pre-Dynastic Egypt. The exact same fact expressed in opposite spin:
- "while pre-dynastic period was still characterized by primarily African descent groups, Egypt from the Old Kingdom saw significant influence from the Near East". (note the omitted "only" which was used to dismiss Bronze Age Egypt as merely an uninteresting sequel of late Neolithic Egypt)
go figure. It is sound to discuss 4th millennium population history, but this is not generally what we usually mean by "Ancient Egypt". Ancient Egypt generally refers to the 3rd to 2nd millennia (you know, the pyramids, the sphinx, Tutankhamun, Ramesses, things like that). If you want to find a "Black African" Ancient Egypt, you have to go back to the 5th and 4th millennia (and then to the southern fringe). This will be easy to straighten out, in intruducing an article structure that is actually historical, with separate "pre-dynastic", "Old Kingdom", "Middle Kingdom" and "New Kingdom" sections. People will then be able to look up the period they are interested in. Discussion of pre-dynastic populations is perfectly on-topic, and should remain in the article, but it needs to be isolated from discussions of [Classical, Bronze Age] "Ancient Egypt" proper. dab (𒁳) 14:21, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Dab, this goes to show that you're truly pov-pushuing your nonsense and imposing your own original research. You say that "black Egypt" goes back to the 5th millennium B.C., yet why would they change from black to non-black in a matter of of a couple of thousand years given no notable displacement of the population? Continuity is noted by various anthropologists so if you were to impose this label on early Egyptians, the same would apply for later material, of course also with a slow process of amalgamation. Your views are obviously fringe, socio-political, diffusionist nonsense.
progress
in spite of the surreal ado on talk, the article has made slow progress. the present version mostly isolates the fringe material in a "Controversies" section, where it can remain for the time being. The actual topic is addressed under "Population characteristics". Further development should focus on giving a clearer diachronic structure to this "Population characteristics" section. The "Controversies", ceterum censeo, are WP:UNDUE and belong merged elsewhere. dab (𒁳) 17:49, 30 October 2007 (UTC) Fine.. But in the meantime do not drastically alter or rearrange content without gaining consensus.. We've already reached this agreement on the talk page.. Your point of view is not priority, which is why we discuss things on the talk page and go through a consensus process.
the Badarian sample has been described as forming a morphological cluster with Nubian, Tigrean, and other southern (or \Negroid") groups (Morant, 1935, 1937; Mukherjee et al., 1955; Nutter, 1958, Strouhal, 1971; Angel, 1972; Keita, 1990). Cranial nonmetric trait studies have found this group to be similar to other Egyptians, including much later material, (Berry and Berry, 1967, 1972) - Zakrzewski (2007)
Also please see the consensus view on the now discredited dynastic race near east invasion theory..
Though invasion theories would persist among a few Egyptologists for some time, and even see a resurrection in popular works as late as the 1990s, most scholars abandoned their search for the foreign origins of Egyptian civilization. Today, we look instead for indigenous development and the roots of dynastic Egyptian culture within the Nile Valley itself and the immediate territory surrounding this cradle of civilization. - The Origin of Egyptian Civilization
The fact that you attribute this to "pan-Africanism exposes your own agenda and not anyone else's.Taharqa 20:00, 30 October 2007 (UTC)