Lowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs) m Archiving 1 discussion(s) to Talk:Race and intelligence/Archive 98) (bot |
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Are you guys joking? His request is absolutely reasonable. Your responses are awful; using "Nobel disease" as a reason to dismiss his request and pointing to something that is more political than scientific like Watson being stripped of his honours is below all critique. [[Special:Contributions/31.208.27.41|31.208.27.41]] ([[User talk:31.208.27.41|talk]]) 10:40, 17 January 2019 (UTC) |
Are you guys joking? His request is absolutely reasonable. Your responses are awful; using "Nobel disease" as a reason to dismiss his request and pointing to something that is more political than scientific like Watson being stripped of his honours is below all critique. [[Special:Contributions/31.208.27.41|31.208.27.41]] ([[User talk:31.208.27.41|talk]]) 10:40, 17 January 2019 (UTC) |
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::His views seem notable because he is a nobel prize winner not because he shows any expertise in the field. Unless we have high-quality sourcers seriously discussing his ideas, as opposed to calling them out as racist etc, inclusion should not happen. ♫ [[User:RichardWeiss|RichardWeiss]] [[User talk:RichardWeiss|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/RichardWeiss|contribs]] 13:51, 17 January 2019 (UTC) |
::His views seem notable because he is a nobel prize winner not because he shows any expertise in the field. Unless we have high-quality sourcers seriously discussing his ideas, as opposed to calling them out as racist etc, inclusion should not happen. ♫ [[User:RichardWeiss|RichardWeiss]] [[User talk:RichardWeiss|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/RichardWeiss|contribs]] 13:51, 17 January 2019 (UTC) |
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== Misrepresented source == |
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On Dec. 31, KingBoru made [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Race_and_intelligence&type=revision&diff=876140272&oldid=874013160] this edit, cited to the ''Handbook of Psychology'' by John R. Graham and Jack A Naglieri. However, this source seems to have been misrepresented. The source does not take a strong position for or against IQ tests being culturally biased, but is generally critical of the view that group differences must be due to cultural bias. Here's a quote from the page of the book that's being cited (p. 58): |
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:''The belief that any group test score difference constitutes bias has been termed the egalitarian fallacy by Jensen (1980, p. 370):'' |
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::''This concept of test bias is based on the gratuitous assumption that all human populations are essentially identical or equal in whatever trait or ability the test purports to measure. Therefore, any difference between populations in the distribution of test scores (such as a difference in means, or standard deviations, or any other parameters of the distribution) is taken as evidence that the test is biased. The search for a less biased test, then, is guided by the criterion of minimizing or eliminating the statistical differences between groups. The perfectly nonbiased test, according to this definition, would reveal reliable individual differences but not reliable (i.e., statistically significant) group differences. (p. 370)'' |
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:''However this controversy is viewed, the perception of test bias stemming from group mean score differences remains a deeply ingrained belief among many psychologists and educators. McArdle (1998) suggests that large group mean score differences are “a necessary but not sufficient condition for test bias” (p. 158). McAllister (1993) has observed, “In the testing community, differences in correct answer rates, total scores, and so on do not mean bias. In the political realm, the exact opposite perception is found; differences mean bias” (p. 394).'' |
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This source does not support KingBoru's edit: "critics largely [believe] that the Intelligence Quotient itself has inherent biases, and thus that differences are due to a [[cultural bias]]." What the source actually says is that there are varying views on whether IQ tests are biased, but the prevailing view among intelligence researchers is that ''differences '''do not''' mean bias''. Since this edit misrepresents the source it's citing, I suggest that it should be reverted. |
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Consider merging this with the page on Scientific racism.
I'm not sure what the difference between the two pages is. --2601:189:4203:133D:C02:CFBF:AB6B:94EC (talk) 16:26, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
- Opposed - This article is about theories concerning race and intelligence. The other article is about practices arising out of those theories. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:05, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
- Opposed - Scientific racism is a value laden term, thus fails NPOV. Mainstream sources concern this topic without calling it scientific racism. See also this previous discussion about Phil Rushton (can't find the link right now). Deleet (talk) 23:20, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
- Opposed - There is a real disparity in IQ scores between racial groups in the United States, which is not entirely explained by socioeconomic disparity, evincing a real disparity in cognitive ability. The scientific community has not reached a consensus on what causes it; categorizing legitimate research into it as "racist" is dismissive and intellectually irresponsible. DrPepper47 (talk) 20:19, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
- First of all, I’m not “pushing” anything – out of respect for the editing community here, I have not made any edits to the article since our exchange over the issue of archaeological data – partially because I’ve been busy, but more so because I want to study this topic further before continuing to edit.
- Rather, I made an educated suggestion in response to your statement about the issue. My evidence is not “shitty”:
- Roth et al.’s 2001 meta-analysis, which reviewed over six million participants and was peer-reviewed by a well-respected journal of applied psychology, is one of the most comprehensive studies of this issue.
- Snyderman and Rothman surveyed hundreds of academics with relevant expertise. The APA stated in 1995 that “no adequate explanation of the differential between the IQ means of Blacks and Whites is presently available.” Hunt and Haier have echoed in 2010 and 2016 that the cause of the gap is still unknown. Unless you can cite evidence to contradict these sources, we are at the mercy of them.
- The 2016 Becker and Rindermann study was peer-reviewed by another well-respected psychological journal. While it does not conclude this debate, it does suggest a possible genetic component to the US racial gap.
- With that said, arguing for the existence of a genetic component to the American racial IQ gap does not constitute scientific racism; IQ is not a measure of innate human worth. Furthermore, racial differences in intelligence – regardless of what causes them – do not justify the reduction, abandonment, or let alone reversion of efforts to ameliorate them. To the contrary, Arthur Jensen testified against segregation in the 1960s and called for increased emphasis on “efforts to improve the education of the disadvantaged,” pointing out that equality in associative learning abilities. Hans Eysenck explicitly stated that if the gap were of partial genetic origin, then “we are in duty bound to try and set up countervailing environmental pressures which would as far as possible redress this balance and bring the [African American] up to white standards.”
- Anyway, can we respectfully agree to refrain from character attacks on this talk?
DrPepper47 (talk) 20:19, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
- That wasn't a character attack and you really need to learn how to parse words better and draw logical distinctions if you can't figure that out on your own (that wasn't a character attack either: it was advice; good advice, given bluntly and without undue courtesy).
- Also, you were explicitly pushing scientific racism with that comment below, as well as with your comment here. So even if that was commentary on your character, it would be accurate.
- In addition, your "evidence" is, in fact shitty. You claimed that the 1 standard deviation held true "even when controlled for socio-economic status", however the study you cited explicitly states that socio-economic variables may "partially obscure the interpretation or causality of the exact effect of job complexity on standardized group differences. We encourage basic research into this issue below."
- But the shittiness doesn't end there: Right before the passage I quotes (the paragraph immediately preceding it, as a matter of fact), the study warns about how one particularly large study that showed a large difference between black and white test scores has a disproportionately large effect on the results of this study itself. Yet you conveniently left out the fact that the results of this study might very well not be reflective of the actual intelligence of white vs black people. Indeed, you claimed that the difference was "an empirical fact".
- You then proceeded to cite a number of studies equating either genetics in general or ethnicity (a markedly different category from race) with recorded IQ test scores without ever addressing any of the most commonly cited problems with such research, such as the correlation between functional intelligence and IQ test scores or the difficulties in defining "race" and equating it to ethnicity, and capped it all off by citing a 1987 survey to make a claim about the state of modern psychology.
- So in case you didn't understand me: Your evidence isn't necessarily shitty because it's fundamentally flawed. Your evidence is shitty because you either don't understand it or are willfully misinterpreting it.
- As a final note, this is an (old, and stale) move discussion. This is not the place to discuss the veracity of scientific racism. Nor is any other page on wikipedia. Go to stormfront.org (or wherever the hell they're located at) or some other site willing to entertain racism to have that discussion. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 20:52, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
Archaeological data
- The section only cites one study - this doesn't objectively conclude that "archaeological evidence does not support claims by Rushton and others." Further commentary from other anthropologists or archeologists would be appropriate.
- This doesn't directly represent hereditarian arguments on the matter. Would it be more appropriately included under potential environmental influences? Please discuss.
Thank you. DrPepper47 (talk) 15:15, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
*The section only cites one study - this doesn't objectively conclude that "archaeological evidence does not support claims by Rushton and others."
Absent any contradicting archeological evidence: yes it does. Welcome to epistemology 101, lesson 1: If all the evidence points to X, then the amount of evidence relative to arbitrary measures of sufficiency is irrelevant, and it can be confidently stated that X is true, subject only to the usual caveats of philosophical skepticism. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 19:35, 19 June 2018 (UTC)- 1) So does this study represent all of the evidence? Does it represent the opinion of the archaeological community?
- 2) Should we not at least (briefly) elaborate on how this evidence fails to support the hereditarian claims?
- 3) If there is no contradictory evidence, would this belong more appropriately under the environmental section?
- 4) Out of sheer curiosity, are there any websites where I can read more about this principle?
- Thank you. DrPepper47 (talk) 16:05, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, unless and until you find additional sources containing such evidence.
- No, see WP:OR.
- No, that makes no sense at all. I have no idea why you think "no contradicting evidence" changes archeological evidence to something else.
- You can read about it right here. Try Epistemology, Skepticism, Truth, Certainty, Uncertainty and Occam's razor. I would recommend further reading than just WP on the subject, but I don't see the point in mentioning more advanced works before you've read the primer, as it were. Yes, it is a huge subject that needs a lot of reading. My "welcome to epistemology 101" comment was not intended to be belittling, but a humorous nod to the complexity of it (though I do feel that the way I explained it was rather simple and easy to follow). To read more about how specifically that principle is used here on WP, read WP:V. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 16:27, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
- Point taken.
- To clarify, I had in mind citing examples from MacEachern's study.
- Understood.
- Thank you. DrPepper47 (talk) 16:35, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
- Re your point 2: That is still OR. Any analysis or discussion added to the article must be directly sourced to an RS. That is not to say that the subject of the analysis must be sourced, but the analysis itself. So we can't say anything about the evidence unless what we say is, itself accurately attributed to a reliable source.
- Getting back to the original topic: If we only have one source covering a subject that could be covered by a large number of sources, each with it's own focus, then we are at a bit of an impasse, as we can only say that which our one source says. We are at the mercy of that source, as it were. This would include us pointing out outliers, or comparing and contrasting different datums included in the original source. Unless the source explicitly says it, or it is a logically inescapable conclusion from what the source does explicitly state, we cannot add it to our articles. Our rules against original research are extraordinarily constraining, and this is intentional. It takes quite a bit of time to learn to work within them, so don't be afraid to ask questions or make talk page proposals like this while you're still new here.
- In this case, I don't actually believe there could be all that much evidence collected, and as such, not too many reliable sources written about it (even the source itself agrees with me on this). Furthermore, in this case, the one source we have is well-accepted, uncontroversial and widely cited. In other words, it's as close as science can get to the fabled "last word" on a subject, and in addition to being unimpeachable reliable, is almost certainly true in any sense of the word.
- I mention this last due to your commentary in the merge discussion above: your statement of fact about racial differences is demonstrably untrue, as even a reading of this highly misleading article can show. It is, in fact, the scientific consensus is that there is no appreciable difference in measurable intelligence between "races" or even ethnicities (and furthermore, that race is an essentially meaningless concept), but significant (if minor) differences between social classes and groups on opposing sides of the "recently oppressed" line of demarcation. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 17:00, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
- I do think that more sources regarding an archaeological perspective on race and intelligence can and should be added to the section being discussed here. I would recommend considering this one, though it is from 1999 and thus may be too old. C. Loring Brace, in addition to the article I just linked, has written about this subject elsewhere too (e.g. this book). IntoThinAir (formerly Everymorning) talk 00:49, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
My, this has been a busy summer; I don't want to indent this discussion out of the page:
- "Any analysis or discussion added to the article must be directly sourced to an RS." That's what I meant. Sorry if I need to clarify my points a bit.
- Interesting points. (I wouldn't really say that I'm "new" to Wikipedia as much as I may be a casual user. :P)
- To qualify my statement on race/IQ differences: it is an empirical fact that, on average, black Americans under-perform white Americans (who average roughly 100 points) on IQ tests by roughly a full standard deviation of around 15 points; this gap persists (perhaps to a smaller extent but still notably) even when controlled for socio-economic status. Now, to acknowledge the elephant in the room - yes, racial discrimination in the United States has resulted in contemporary socio-economic setbacks for black Americans, which I will concede have to account for at least part of the gap; I also fully understand that race is largely disavowed in anthropological taxonomy. However, although there is more genetic variation within than between "races," this doesn't mean genetic distances between black and white populations in the United States are not significant. A modest correlation has been observed between latitudinal genetic distances and IQ, supporting an evolutionary explanation for IQ differences between nations; before this study, there was a scientific consensus that genes explain a small but noteworthy part of this variation. Scientists who have studied the black-white US gap have not yet reached a consensus; it's plausible that at least a small part of it could be explained by genetic variation.
DrPepper47 (talk) 20:02, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
- Ignoring the fact that you're now just explicitly pushing scientific racism based on some -frankly- rather shitty evidence, what does any of this have to do with archeological data? ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 20:59, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
- That was only a response (albeit late) to your last comment in this section; I am posting my next response in the scientific racism section. DrPepper47 (talk) 20:19, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 21 August 2018
Please change '1.1' to '1.2' in the section "United States test scores" I dont have any sources, but if 1 is 15 then 1.2 is 18. X tomcat x (talk) 21:20, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
- Not done: Standard deviations don't work that way. For example, look at this example. Going from 1 to 2 standard deviations from the mean is a decrease of roughly 0.2 units, whereas going from 2 to 3 standard deviations is roughly a 0.05 unit decrease. Adrian J. Hunter(talk•contribs) 11:51, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
Group differences and scientific consensus
- You are absolutely right that I do need to parse my words more carefully. I did not intend to imply that the full standard deviation persisted when controlled for socioeconomic status or that the Roth study supported that. When I said that it “persists (perhaps to a smaller extent but still notably) even when controlled for socio-economic status,” I meant that there is still a perhaps reduced but still notable racial gap when controlled for socio-economic status. I did also say that socioeconomic disparities have to account for at least part of the gap, but ignoring that – I now recognize my serious faults in failing not only to articulate my own point but also to cite any evidence. I only had access to the abstract for the Roth 2001, so I recognize my error in failing to investigate it more carefully and recognizing the potential for error in its estimate.
- Nonetheless, the APA stated that the “Black mean is typically about one standard deviation (about 15 points) below that of Whites” on intelligence tests (with the caveat however that the gap may have shortened in recent generations,) that it does not simply reflect socio-economic differences, and that caste- or culture-based explanations have little direct empirical support.
- I’ll take it on good faith that you did not intend any insult, and I’ll apologize for my comment – it was passive-aggressive and foolish on my part, thus completely out of place. However, accusations of racism are very serious to make and serve to foster resentment if made lightly or without substantiation. What have I suggested that fits such a charge? And how am I “pushing” it?
- I understand that ethnicity is not the same thing as race, and I did not unduly neglect epistemological problems facing scientific conceptions of “race” or intelligence. Although I may have jumped the gun by calling Rindermann et al’s survey a “consensus” (given the low response rate), I never stated that the studies were conclusive – only suggestive.
- I never intended to imply that the Snyderman and Rothman study summarizes the current state of psychology; rather I cited it because it was one of the last known surveys of scientific opinion on the issue. To reiterate, the APA and respected experts such as Hunt and Haier have stated since that the causes of racial differences in intelligence test scores are not definitively known. Do you have any evidence to refute this?
DrPepper47 (talk) 14:56, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
- Did you honestly expect that you could claim you "did not intend to imply" something which you had previously stated both explicitly and forcefully, and I would not immediately spot that as a bald-faced lie? ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 16:00, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
Suggestions for more citations
The citations are somewhat old. These are suggestions for newer sources written by authorities - would they be acceptable in this article?
- James R. Flynn, "Reflections about intelligence over 40 years", Intelligence, October 2018.
- R Plomin & I J Deary, "Genetics and intelligence differences: five special findings", Molecular Psychiatry, 2014/2015.
I don't like that groups or regions that today suffer from low IQ are pinpointed so often in this article ("subsahara" is mentioned 11 times, and Africa(n) 30 times). But why not mention ethnicities and regions that have extraordinarily strong IQ, for example Ashkenazi Jewish intelligence and East Asians? And why not mention their average IQ? Would such an addition be deleted? 193.10.113.47 (talk) 18:55, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
Capitalization of 'white' and 'black'
This page is currently inconsistent regarding the capitalization of the words 'white' and 'black.' Does anyone else care about this, or have any ideas about whether the words should be capitalized or not if we make it consistent? If found this: https://www.cjr.org/analysis/language_corner_1.php. Let me know if anyone else cares about this. Carlsonaar (talk) 13:56, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
- They should NOT be capitalized. ♫ RichardWeiss talk contribs 13:52, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
- Now fixed and consistent. I have no idea what the justification was but it isn't proper English, which is why they have all been removed. ♫ RichardWeiss talk contribs 14:48, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
Nobel prize winner James Watson
Now that Nobel prize laureate James Watson has come forward decidedly in favor of this, you have to mention him and change "there remains some debate" to "the issue is the subject of ongoing debate" or similar.
Come on wikipedia, show that you are actually neutral and unbiased. This is the lithmus-test of neutrality, because the issue is so full of anger and hatred. Here is just a Nobel laureate, with a scientific opinion, and then all the world throws hate at him. His comments just lift the lid placed over this huge taboo. Wikipedia can either allow uncomfortable positions a neutral and fair treatment, or it can let emotion win over science. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.87.244.164 (talk) 22:56, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
- Nobel Laureates have a history of losing their minds. The Curies endorsed psychics, Alexis Carrel became a Nazi collaborator, and Linus Pauling decided Vitamin C cured everything. It's called 'Nobel disease', and it is quite well known. Sumanuil (talk) 23:03, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
- Um, the same guy who was just stripped of his various honors? [1] EvergreenFir (talk) 23:09, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
Are you guys joking? His request is absolutely reasonable. Your responses are awful; using "Nobel disease" as a reason to dismiss his request and pointing to something that is more political than scientific like Watson being stripped of his honours is below all critique. 31.208.27.41 (talk) 10:40, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
- His views seem notable because he is a nobel prize winner not because he shows any expertise in the field. Unless we have high-quality sourcers seriously discussing his ideas, as opposed to calling them out as racist etc, inclusion should not happen. ♫ RichardWeiss talk contribs 13:51, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
Misrepresented source
On Dec. 31, KingBoru made [2] this edit, cited to the Handbook of Psychology by John R. Graham and Jack A Naglieri. However, this source seems to have been misrepresented. The source does not take a strong position for or against IQ tests being culturally biased, but is generally critical of the view that group differences must be due to cultural bias. Here's a quote from the page of the book that's being cited (p. 58):
- The belief that any group test score difference constitutes bias has been termed the egalitarian fallacy by Jensen (1980, p. 370):
- This concept of test bias is based on the gratuitous assumption that all human populations are essentially identical or equal in whatever trait or ability the test purports to measure. Therefore, any difference between populations in the distribution of test scores (such as a difference in means, or standard deviations, or any other parameters of the distribution) is taken as evidence that the test is biased. The search for a less biased test, then, is guided by the criterion of minimizing or eliminating the statistical differences between groups. The perfectly nonbiased test, according to this definition, would reveal reliable individual differences but not reliable (i.e., statistically significant) group differences. (p. 370)
- However this controversy is viewed, the perception of test bias stemming from group mean score differences remains a deeply ingrained belief among many psychologists and educators. McArdle (1998) suggests that large group mean score differences are “a necessary but not sufficient condition for test bias” (p. 158). McAllister (1993) has observed, “In the testing community, differences in correct answer rates, total scores, and so on do not mean bias. In the political realm, the exact opposite perception is found; differences mean bias” (p. 394).
This source does not support KingBoru's edit: "critics largely [believe] that the Intelligence Quotient itself has inherent biases, and thus that differences are due to a cultural bias." What the source actually says is that there are varying views on whether IQ tests are biased, but the prevailing view among intelligence researchers is that differences do not mean bias. Since this edit misrepresents the source it's citing, I suggest that it should be reverted.