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Carolmooredc (talk | contribs) →Removal of NPOV info on RT viewpoint: criticial articles can have less critical views |
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A response to these issues from User: Festermunk would be appreciated since lack of them is not collaboratative and makes me wonder if he will just summarily delete a subsection on guests that has more such NPOV and NOT highly critical info. ''[[User:Carolmooredc|CarolMooreDC]]'' 19:45, 28 September 2012 (UTC) |
A response to these issues from User: Festermunk would be appreciated since lack of them is not collaboratative and makes me wonder if he will just summarily delete a subsection on guests that has more such NPOV and NOT highly critical info. ''[[User:Carolmooredc|CarolMooreDC]]'' 19:45, 28 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:First off they weren't removed, they were relocated to other sections of the article (e.g. the Cohen block was moved to the Responses section). Second, there's no way somebody reading the Heyman article could come to the conclusion that it wasn't a criticism of RT, especially in the context of the paragraph in the article so unless you can provide convincing reasons as to how Heyman's paragraph (or article) supports RT, I suggest you don't put that in the "Programming and Presenters" section. I will add back the Maczka quote though, point taken, but not without a qualifer. [[User:Festermunk|Festermunk]] ([[User talk:Festermunk|talk]]) 20:50, 28 September 2012 (UTC) |
:First off they weren't removed, they were relocated to other sections of the article (e.g. the Cohen block was moved to the Responses section). Second, there's no way somebody reading the Heyman article could come to the conclusion that it wasn't a criticism of RT, especially in the context of the paragraph in the article so unless you can provide convincing reasons as to how Heyman's paragraph (or article) supports RT, I suggest you don't put that in the "Programming and Presenters" section. I will add back the Maczka quote though, point taken, but not without a qualifer. [[User:Festermunk|Festermunk]] ([[User talk:Festermunk|talk]]) 20:50, 28 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::Festermunk, you don't seem to realize that someone can have neutral or merely descriptive statements in an article that also includes harsh criticism. I think Heyman's sentence is in that category: ''In 2008 Stephen Heyman wrote in the New York Times that in RT’s Russia, “corruption is not quite a scourge but a symptom of a developing economy. And concerns about street thugs, poverty and Ukraine’s aspirations for European Union membership trump fears over Vladimir V. Putin’s grip on power.”'' At least certainly compared to the crude attacks you and others have included in the criticism section! ''[[User:Carolmooredc|CarolMooreDC]]'' 21:28, 28 September 2012 (UTC) |
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==RT Article Intro (LEAD) POV== |
==RT Article Intro (LEAD) POV== |
Revision as of 21:28, 28 September 2012
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AIM
In my opinion, "An article by Accuracy in Media ..." is giving undue weight to the opinion of a website. Please note how all four references quote AIM. --129.125.102.126 (talk) 20:38, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
Alleged right-wing POV pushing
In this edit reverting additions I made earlier I have been accused of this practice. The claim of right-wing POV pushing is made against RT in a cited reliable source from a respected civil rights organisation, rather than being in my own words. The changes in the headings I made still leave the validity of the allegations open rather than being conclusive, and the new 'Coverage of conspiracy theories and interviews with extremists' heading takes accouynt of my additions which would not have been adequately covered by the old heading. I reverted almost all of the changes made by IP 129.125.102.126, who appears to a regularly blocked user. Philip Cross (talk) 00:25, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
- You changed "Allegations of pro-Kremlin bias" to "Pro-Kremlin bias?" The editor might have missed the question mark or thought that it implied RT was biased. When you make changes you should make them one at a time, because an editor who disagrees with one edit may frequently reverse them all. TFD (talk) 15:38, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
- In my opinion, you are pushing a POV, which is considered right-wing everywhere and described as such in countries without a US military presence. --129.125.102.126 (talk) 00:27, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
- "In my opinion, you are pushing a POV". Hmm. "Which is considered right-wing everywhere and described as such in countries without a US military presence". Again, hmm! Philip Cross (talk) 08:12, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
- Well then, name a country without US military presence where your POV isn't considered right-wing. --129.125.102.126 (talk) 15:12, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
- A little confused about what the wikipedia related debate is here. "Allegations of pro-Kremlin bias" obviously is a more "Wikified" section header. I question using those allegations since my guess is the incidents were based on the young producer's ignorance of the interviewees politics and not some political bias. I'm sure the SPLC report did wake them right up. So I doubt that leaving that in is of encyclopedic importance. CarolMooreDC 18:48, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
- Well then, name a country without US military presence where your POV isn't considered right-wing. --129.125.102.126 (talk) 15:12, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
- "In my opinion, you are pushing a POV". Hmm. "Which is considered right-wing everywhere and described as such in countries without a US military presence". Again, hmm! Philip Cross (talk) 08:12, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
Is RT a reliable source as per WP:RS?
The issue has come up with some editors removing links to RT, claiming that RT is not a "reliable source", though it's not clear who determined it and when. Those editors are not happy to have several sources cited (including RT) but are determined to remove all links to RT altogether. Is this bias and censorship or a valid Wikipedia practice? Should the links to BBC, Press TV, SANA, VOA, Xinhua and the majority of the US media be removed as well? Thanks, C1010 (talk) 13:46, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
Yes, RT is a reliable source as per WP:RS
- RT is a professinally edited, verifiable, third-party news agency and as such it satisfies the definition of a reliable source as per WP:RS. C1010 (talk) 13:46, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
- The sole argument for RT supposedly not being a WP:RS is that it's (indirectly) funded by the Russian government. I disagree with this line of reasoning. If state funding would automatically make a medium unreliable, we would have to disqualify BBC, CBC, al-Jazeera etc. as well from now on. - TaalVerbeteraar (talk) 13:59, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
- Of course it is! Per C1010. --J (t) 16:22, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, news programs of any licensed broadcaster are reliable. Commentary included in any media program should be evaluated on its own merits, as it may not be subject to the same journalistic standards as news reporting. G. C. Hood (talk) 23:51, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, per arguments above. In fact it's better at presenting a variety of viewpoints than CNN, Fox, MSNBC, etc. Its pro-Russia bias not that much different from pro-US view of most cable news shows. CarolMooreDC 02:50, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
- Yes it is rs for news, but its opinion programs are no more reliable than Fox or CNN's. However this is really a matter for RSN. TFD (talk) 03:54, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
- Yes it is a reliable source as per WP:RS. I concur with C1010 and TaalVerbeteraar . Brendon is here 13:14, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
- Without any doubt it is a WP:RS, opinions otherwise are notable, but not significant when examined. I made a template just to provide access to the RT news trends page, and inserted it into 50 article talkpages, many of them were very controversial, and out of the 3 or 4 total number of comments made in the months they sat there, the major focus of criticism was other reliable news services didn't have a trends page which could be incorporated into the template, so it was spam simply because it stood alone without peer in making trending news easy to find (human sorted and tagged rather than machine sorted which doesn't work as well). The content itself, on such controversial subjects attracted only one comment, where again, there was no matching news service for the local country. Press TV, RT and BBC together give the best overall picture of what is happening in the "English speaking" world. Press TV edges over the rest with an absolutely neutral and balanced presentation, which is often quite shocking when the reader/viewer finds the program originates in Iran ! Penyulap ☏ 07:30, 23 Jul 2012 (UTC)
- Per User TFD, these judgments are made on RSN based on context and on the specific claim cited to RT, but in general, RT's news reports are as mainstream and reliable as the other major international networks (many of which also receive state oversight), such as BBC and Al Jazeera. Shrigley (talk) 04:27, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
- Per TaalVerbeteraar and Shrigley. On a side note, it is one of the very few agencies with a reporter on the ground in Syria at present. GotR Talk 05:27, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
- It is reliable source in the context of WP:IRS, though it shouldn't be normally used per its known bias. BTW, the editor-in-chief attributed the channel as "provocative". — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 08:33, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, although as noted at WP:RS, context matters. I would think twice before using it as a source for statements about the government of Russia or the US, and with such statements, additional references should be provided. All news media have biases; some are simply more obvious (or strong) than others. --BDD (talk) 20:33, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
No, RT is not a reliable source as per WP:RS
- RT is the press agency of the Russian state. It is reliable for official Russia's perspective. Reliability depends on the topic. Its specific mission includes improving Russia's image abroad (per official statements). Let's not pretend RT is something it's not (equated to the BBC, CNN, etc.) VєсrumЬа ►TALK 00:42, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
- Vecrumba, you wrote,
"Its specific mission includes improving Russia's image abroad (per official statements)."
- could you please back this claim with the link to the "official statement" you referred to? Thanks, Brendon is here 13:24, 21 July 2012 (UTC)- It was part of the original announcement of the service, I'll have to track it down. Also, to some comments above, RT is not "like" the BBC, the UK government exerts no influence on the BBC whereas RT via Novosti is the official press organ of the Russian state. Appreciate there's a difference, people. VєсrumЬа ►TALK 14:45, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
- Vecrumba, you wrote,
Wrong question
- As some of the supports indicate, it can be a reliable source for certain issues, but especially given its status wrt the Russian government, it can't be considered reliable a reliable source for others. Further, this is the wrong venue for this question, WP:RSN is the right one. Hobit (talk) 19:52, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
Comment
Sorry just a bit confused, I was going to say that RT must be a reliable source for facts in the RT article but I get the feeling that this is about RT use in other parts of wikipedia, in which case this is the wrong place to discuss this and should really be taken to Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. MilborneOne (talk) 21:28, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
- You are correct. Someone else mentioned this. When people go to WP:RSN they should mention specificaly what source they want to use and where in what article they want to use it. This really is just a politically motivated "vote" and probably should be archived. CarolMooreDC 16:38, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
- I used this page as a guidance to prepare this RFC. I put it into Media, the arts, and architecture and Wikipedia policies and guidelines groups as they seemed the most appropriate groups to me for this RFC. Please see the RFC description for the specific source, article and relevant discussion that resulted in this RFC. Regards, C1010 (talk) 18:44, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
- In any case, I think most editors responding find RT a reliable source. CarolMooreDC 00:32, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
- I used this page as a guidance to prepare this RFC. I put it into Media, the arts, and architecture and Wikipedia policies and guidelines groups as they seemed the most appropriate groups to me for this RFC. Please see the RFC description for the specific source, article and relevant discussion that resulted in this RFC. Regards, C1010 (talk) 18:44, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
lost access
Sept 6, 2012: From Canada, I am no longer able to get to the RT.com web site. Any article on Google of RT's now gets routed to the same 'Network Solutions' page that you get if you go to rt.com. Does anyone know if the owners of the .COM domain space have revoked RT's domain? It appears like the RT.com domain has "expired" and is now "up for auction". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.14.36.80 (talk) 15:00, 6 September 2012 (UTC) Sept 6, 2012 8:44 PM: RT is now available in Canada again. I'm curious if anyone can shed some light as to what happened. They were off the air (unrouteable) for a full 12 hours. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.14.36.80 (talk) 00:51, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
The same thing has now happened in America. Can't access the website. Can anyone explain why this website is now, apparently, banned in my country where Freedom of Speech is supposed to be protected? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.17.251.213 (talk) 04:01, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
Not available in Israel.--2.55.143.178 (talk) 06:13, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
- It's fine today. If it expired, I guess they bought it back. And somebody's in big trouble. CarolMooreDC 19:53, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
Heavily biased Article
Just Comparing the two articles - one about RT and the second about BBC World news. The bias is so blatant.
Both News companies are funded and managed the same way, yet are treated the complete opposite on Wikipedia. one is depicted like a villain and one like an angel
The RT Article begins with : "RT, also known as Russia Today, is a government-funded[1] global multilingual television news network based in Russia. It was founded in 2005 as Russia Today by the government-owned[2] RIA Novosti. "
If you read the source quote[1] fully:
"RIA-Novosti said in a statement issued last month that it is "neither a sponsor nor a backer of Russia Today" and merely participated in establishing the channel as an Autonomous Non-Profit Organization, which provided for its complete legal, editorial and operational independence.
Simonyan, whose office is in the same building as RIA-Novosti’s, stressed that the station does not position itself as part of RIA-Novosti and that RIA-Novosti does not interfere in its editorial policy.
She also said Russia Today never hid that it was funded by the government. "Probably many viewers of BBC World News also do not know that their program is directly funded by the British Foreign Office,” she added. "
And the BBC World news begins with :
"Launched on 11 March 1991 as the BBC World Service Television outside of Europe.."
"Unlike the BBC's domestic channels, BBC World News is not funded by a licence fee. Instead, it is funded commercially by advertising."
But the truth of the matter is revealed in the main BBC article :
"Outside the UK, the BBC World Service has provided services by direct broadcasting and re-transmission contracts by sound radio since the inauguration of the BBC Empire Service in December 1932, and more recently by television and online. Though sharing some of the facilities of the domestic services, particularly for news and current affairs output, the World Service has a separate Managing Director, and its operating costs have historically been funded mainly by direct grants from the British government. These grants were determined independently of the domestic licence fee and were usually awarded from the budget of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. As such, the BBC's international content has traditionally represented – at least in part – an effective foreign policy tool of the British Government. " And "BBC News is the largest broadcast news gathering operation in the world,[72] providing services to BBC domestic radio as well as television networks such as the BBC News, BBC Parliament and BBC World News."
RT also addressed this very strange general Bias in an article here http://rt.com/usa/news/rt-government-broadcasting-radio/
Not to say that "Controversies, criticisms and response" in the BBC World news article doesn't even exist.
I thank you for your time
Ron — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.179.30.95 (talk) 06:42, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
- I agree, but somebody with time and Wikipedia editing experience has to do the job - including showing specific govt biases on both sides. Just don't have time. CarolMooreDC 00:34, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
- The articles BBC controversies and Criticism of the BBC do exist, but it's probably a problem that you couldn't easily navigate to them from the main article. Shrigley (talk) 00:56, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
There is zero difference between the BBC and RT - looked what happened when the BBC went off message regarding the "sexed up" Iraqi dossier! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.190.48.45 (talk) 23:14, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
- It's all a question of wording and bias .BBC World News is not RT. BBC World News was established specifically to promote UK interests worldwide by the BBC World service, the official press organ of the UK government. References :"The World Service is currently funded by grant-in-aid through the Foreign and Commonwealth Office of the British Government[1]" , "The Foreign and Commonwealth Office, commonly called the Foreign Office or the FCO is a department of the United Kingdom government. It is responsible for protecting and promoting UK interests worldwide.[2]" Ron--79.181.29.36 (talk) 23:30, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
- I have a head cold so it is hard for me to navigate all this right now. Probably best to provide your proposed wording here to clarify What RIA-Novosti says RT is. Of course,you'd also then have to say that most English outlets continue to call it an arm of the Kremlin, with 3 or 4 refs proving that point. Today I noticed even Columbia Journalism Review makes fun of it, and they are supposed to be more scholarly; or else there is a basis for their beliefs?? In the past I looked it up on news google archive and you might try to see if there's anything new there. CarolMooreDC 01:07, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
- If the debate is simply whether to include the quote about beig like the BBC ala this diff, I think it's fine to keep it in. Please stop edit warring. CarolMooreDC 01:11, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
- Just looking at the edit war in the history page on the first paragraph, it tells everything about the bias (I would say propaganda) . some people just won't allow anything non negative about this network. even if it is factual and legitimately referenced. It's pretty shocking. I used to rely on Wikipedia for information. now I very much hesitate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.179.8.238 (talk) 05:02, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
- It's worth reading WP:NPOV and WP:RS. While one might argue that the quote "become a sort of Russia's BBC" is OK (and for that reason I've left it), the claim that RT is autonomous and non-profit are clearly in violation of previously mentioned wiki policies. Both were presented as NPOV facts, but if you actually read the citation you'll find that the only calling it that is RIA Novasti, the founder of RT. If I founded a company, any claims I make about the company are clearly not NPOV! To have this, or anything else for that matter, presented as indisputable facts you need to provide a reliable source where an uninvolved (=NPOV) source makes the statement. This contrasts to direct quotations; for example, the reason the "sort of Russia's BBC" comment arguably is OK is that the quotation marks make it clear where it originates -- directly from RIA Novosti, the founders of RT. 212.10.67.251 (talk) 18:01, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
- Just looking at the edit war in the history page on the first paragraph, it tells everything about the bias (I would say propaganda) . some people just won't allow anything non negative about this network. even if it is factual and legitimately referenced. It's pretty shocking. I used to rely on Wikipedia for information. now I very much hesitate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.179.8.238 (talk) 05:02, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
It was specifically reported as being founded to improve Russia's image, with involvement from Putin's office and funding by the government. No reliable source outside of RT itself has described it other than Russia state media:
- Официальная презентация канала Russia Today, призванного формировать позитивный образ России у иностранцев, состоялась в начале июня. О том, что за его созданием стоит кремлевская администрация, в частности, пресс-секретарь президента Алексей Громов и советник главы государства Михаил Лесин (он был инициатором создания новостного канала, но, по информации Ъ, почти сразу после объявления о создании RTTV отошел от этого проекта), официально объявлено не было. Хотя первый заместитель Алексея Громова Дмитрий Песков подтверждал Ъ, что "в администрации президента идея Russia Today нашла понимание и поддержку". К тому же учредителем канала является государственное РИА "Новости", а финансироваться RTTV будет из госбюджета, для чего уже на 2005 год выделено $30 млн.
(as reported in Kommersant). Personally, RT "commentator" Thom Hartmann presents a more honest analysis of the sources of the current US deficit than the Republican Party, but that does not make RT a reliable source. VєсrumЬа ►TALK 18:50, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
- This is the relevant section of Moscow Times article. A short summary should be in the Response to allegations section. It doesn't have to be in the lead:
- RIA-Novosti said in a statement issued last month that it is "neither a sponsor nor a backer of Russia Today" and merely participated in establishing the channel as an Autonomous Non-Profit Organization, which provided for its complete legal, editorial and operational independence.
- Simonyan, whose office is in the same building as RIA-Novosti’s, stressed that the station does not position itself as part of RIA-Novosti and that RIA-Novosti does not interfere in its editorial policy.
- She also said Russia Today never hid that it was funded by the government. "Probably many viewers of BBC World News also do not know that their program is directly funded by the British Foreign Office,” she added.
- It also would help to find if there are other more varied or nuanced opinions. CarolMooreDC 19:33, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
- The Russian state is the sponsor and backer of both RIA Novosti and RT. And what is "independence?" Simoyan has also stated that no one calls her from the Kremlin daily to censor news. That ignores the point that the Kremlin doesn't need to call. @Carolmooredc, I regret that Novosti/RT pablum does not qualify as nuanced input. VєсrumЬа ►TALK 20:00, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
- @Vecrumb: I clearly said "more varied or nuanced opinions" applied to other sources. Please read more carefully. But again there is no problem with using them to reply to their critics who themselves all sound like they are towing some party line; thus need for other opinions that might actually be a bit more objective. At my leisure. CarolMooreDC 01:13, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
- The Russian state is the sponsor and backer of both RIA Novosti and RT. And what is "independence?" Simoyan has also stated that no one calls her from the Kremlin daily to censor news. That ignores the point that the Kremlin doesn't need to call. @Carolmooredc, I regret that Novosti/RT pablum does not qualify as nuanced input. VєсrumЬа ►TALK 20:00, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
- This is the relevant section of Moscow Times article. A short summary should be in the Response to allegations section. It doesn't have to be in the lead:
- The original author of the additions in the lead and their primary defender (seeing that he/she re-added it numerous times over the last month when removed by other editors) has re-added "autonomous" yet again. The user is entirely right in saying that a source does not have to be NPOV, but wikipedia should be NPOV. However, this isn't about someone removing a reference; this is about a sentence in a wikipedia article that presents claims by RIA Novosti (the founder of RT) as NPOV facts – in the very first sentence of the lead! Seeing that previous comments in this discussion only pointed to overall policies, I'll point to the exact sections that are relevant.
- WP:LEAD, third paragraph, quote: "The lead should [...] be written in a clear, accessible style with a neutral point of view"
- WP:NPOV, specifically WP:YESPOV: "Avoid stating opinions as facts"; "Avoid stating seriously contested assertions as facts" (the autonomy of RT is seriously contested; just see the Controversies, criticisms and response section in the wiki article), etc.
- WP:V, specifically WP:ABOUTSELF: The claim is self-serving; it's in their interest to say that RT is autonomous, and not just a mouthpiece of themselves, the founders (& consequently the Russian Gov.).
- Using the same logic, I could add the following to the lead of both Barack Obama's & Mitt Romney's article: "Would be a better president than [the opponent], who would be disastrous." After all, they both said it, as did their close allies in the respective parties. Or I could find all the sports clothing companies and add that they make "the best clothes for use in sports". Most companies and their founders say that about their own products. Consequently, I removed the "autonomous" claim and pointed to this discussion (again) in my edit summary. Should someone feel the urge to re-add the claim, I would be very interested in knowing why we should disregard two (WP:NPOV, WP:V) of the core content policies on wiki. 212.10.83.72 (talk) 18:03, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
- The original author of the additions in the lead and their primary defender (seeing that he/she re-added it numerous times over the last month when removed by other editors) has re-added "autonomous" yet again. The user is entirely right in saying that a source does not have to be NPOV, but wikipedia should be NPOV. However, this isn't about someone removing a reference; this is about a sentence in a wikipedia article that presents claims by RIA Novosti (the founder of RT) as NPOV facts – in the very first sentence of the lead! Seeing that previous comments in this discussion only pointed to overall policies, I'll point to the exact sections that are relevant.
Moscow Times cite - not credible
"2nd most watched foreign news network in the U.S." - VERY dubious. The cite comes from Russia, so . . . I think this is pretty much a fantasy, as the RT is pretty much home on YouTube videos and not American living rooms. HammerFilmFan (talk) 22:51, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
- The source is the non-Russian Inter Press Service. It seems reasonable since there are few foreign news networks that focus on international news. TFD (talk) 14:21, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
- In the past I looked for other sources since I figure someone somewhere must be keeping score on these small cable news stations and putting in on line, but no luck so far. CarolMooreDC 21:47, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
POV cuts without explanation
It looks like editor Festermunk, while gutting properly ref'd "favorable" info, has put in negative new material, all without edit summaries. Obviously POV edits that need to be dealt with in an NPOV way. Festermunk also obviously has problems with the English language which have to be dealt with also. Must finish some actual housecleaning first. CarolMooreDC 20:41, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
- I don't know if we have one or two people editing as Anon IPs, but edit warring with Festermunk isn't helping. I have left a message on Festermunk's talk page about reporting him and will mention both IPs if discussion doesn't happen here. I'd ask you two or three to stop editing so other articles can do an NPOV version. Thanks. CarolMooreDC 03:25, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
- So that's what it is. I DON'T LIKE THE FUCK YOU ARE DOING SO REVERT YOUR CHANGES OR ELSE. Figures. At the very least, can you be more specific with your NPOV accusation? What specific section of NPOV am I violating? WP:UNDUE? lacking in an impartial tone? Or just not being neutral? Festermunk (talk) 03:33, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
- First of all you might try being a big more civil.
- This section was just a heads up about my reverts and/or relevant edits to come; I intended to explain whatever of my reversions and/or relevant edits you disagreed with. I still may do that if there isn't continuing nonsense.
- However, one or two Anon IPs did more radical reverts than I intended to before I got a chance. Nevertheless, according to WP:BRD - Bold, revert, discuss cycle - you should have discussed this after the first Anon IP first reverted you instead of edit warring with the Anon IP(s). So you really should be explaining all your edits at this point. Thanks. CarolMooreDC 03:49, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
- You haven't explained anything, the entirety of your accusation amounted my edits being POV without even a reason as to how or why they violate NPOV. "So you really should be explaining all your edits at this point." Why? As far as I can tell they haven't violated any Wikipedia guidelines, so what is there to explain? Festermunk (talk) 03:58, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
- NPOV is a case by case basis. But now that the article has been protected for a week (!) we have lots of time to go through all the problems with the article. I'll start with two momentarily. CarolMooreDC 04:30, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
- You haven't explained anything, the entirety of your accusation amounted my edits being POV without even a reason as to how or why they violate NPOV. "So you really should be explaining all your edits at this point." Why? As far as I can tell they haven't violated any Wikipedia guidelines, so what is there to explain? Festermunk (talk) 03:58, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
- So that's what it is. I DON'T LIKE THE FUCK YOU ARE DOING SO REVERT YOUR CHANGES OR ELSE. Figures. At the very least, can you be more specific with your NPOV accusation? What specific section of NPOV am I violating? WP:UNDUE? lacking in an impartial tone? Or just not being neutral? Festermunk (talk) 03:33, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
Programming, presenters and guests
Three things that need clarification or more info:
- Is the English language programming pretty much the same in all countries? Can we can find a WP:RS that tells us. Rt.com can be quite confusing so it doesn't always help.One assumes RT America has a lot more American guests critical of the US than European stations, but is that true? They also have a lot of Europeans critical of various European countries.
- “Presenters” is just too busy and should only have current verifiable presenters or past ones with articles (or who should have articles and thus red links)
- There needs to be a section mentioning various guests, since RT is popular because it has a lot of interesting and even high profile ones. (I was just watching Alan Simpson tonight; the former head of Israeli missile defense is on right now; the Latino painting my house was telling me recently how much he enjoys RT cause of the interesting guests.) I’m sure we can find some WP:Rs, besides this RT article and RT youtube pages. Not to mention more neutral WP:RS in general about it. I’ve been negligent myself. CarolMooreDC 04:31, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
Proposal on ownership issue
I rewrote according to the refs. Since so much of the article emphasizes accusations RT is totally controlled by the Russian government, RIA Novosti's denials belong right up front, not in a footnote or way down in responses. And Owner: Ria Novosti (correct name) should be removed from the info box.
RT, also known as Russia Today, is a government-funded [1] autonomous, non-profit[2] global multilingual television news network based in Russia. It was founded in 2005 as Russia Today by the government-controlled[3] news agency RIA Novosti with the purpose of becoming "Russia's BBC".[4] RIA Novosti asserts that it "merely participated in establishing the channel" which retained "complete legal, editorial and operational independence."[2]
(Relevant sentence from History Section): The network was launched by the government-controlled news agency Ria Novosti in 2005. In its early years about half of the network's budget came from the state and the other half from banks and companies friendly to the government.[1]
References
- ^ a b James Painter, The boom in counter-hegemonic news channels: a case study of Telesur, (undated, circa 2006), Reuters Institute for the Study of Journalism at Oxford University.
- ^ a b Nikolaus von Twickel. Russia Today courts viewers with controversy. The Moscow Times. March 23, 2010.
- ^ Burton, C., Drake, A. Hitting the Headlines In Europe, A Country-By-Country Guide to Effective Media Relations. Kogan Page Ltd. 2004. p.163
- ^ RIA Novosti launches a TV channel, Russia Today, RIA Novosti, June 7, 2005.
- I'm not quite understanding the changes, why is the state-run description of Russia Today not in the lead? In fact not even Russia Today denies that they are state-run. Also, describing RT as "autonomous" is utter crap as user RN1970 has pointed out and since there's already two people opposing the changes I suggest that you don't put that word in the lead.Festermunk (talk) 23:37, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
Thoughts? Please do not edit the above, but copy relevant text for counter proposals. CarolMooreDC 05:35, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
- It it is clear that "autonomous" is in conflict with several wikipedia policies, as described here. Other than that, it looks good to me. RN1970 (talk) 15:11, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
- Having read the entire article again, it is also clear that the controversies are sufficiently important to justify a brief mention in the lead. This can be done quite easily and in a NPOV manner by adding a sentence that mentions both sides of the argument. "Western media has accused RT of having a pro-Kremlin bias, but this has been denined by RT, which asserts it simply presents media from a Russian viewpoint." Perhaps the exact wording should be modified, but something along those lines. There are plenty of references for both sides of the argument in Allegations of pro-Kremlin bias and Response to allegations. RN1970 (talk) 15:49, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
- It should be neutral and be the same as BBC world news intro, PBS intro ,Fox news, CNN etc. (every one of them also has agendas as emphasized by Glenn Greenwald piece).
Here is Deutsche Welle intro (it has exact same structure , but lucky for it it is Western..
Deutsche Welle (German pronunciation: [ˈdɔʏtʃə ˈvɛlə]) or DW is Germany's international broadcaster. The service is aimed at the overseas market. It broadcasts news and information on shortwave, Internet and satellite radio in 30 languages (DW (Radio)). It has a satellite television service (DW (TV)), that is available in four languages, and there is also an online news site. Deutsche Welle, which in English means "German Wave", is similar to international broadcasters such as the BBC World Service, France 24, Voice of America, Radio Canada International, Radio Free Europe and Radio France Internationale.
Deutsche Welle has broadcast regularly since 1953. Until 2003 it was based in Cologne, when it relocated to a new building, the "Schürmann-Bau", in Bonn's former government office area. The television broadcasts are produced in Berlin. Deutsche Welle's website is produced in both Berlin and Bonn. On February 6, 2012 Deutsche Welle underwent a significant rebranding.
Why isn't ARD mentioned there as "the government-owned[2] news agency ARD" ?
If Wikipedia isn't more than just a western propaganda machine,RT intro should not be apologetic or defensive at all. All controversy and allegations should be in controversy section.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.176.2.22 (talk) 16:12, 20 September 2012
- Please do remember to sign your posts using "~~~~" and do read WP:LEAD, which is perfectly clear:
The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview. It should define the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points—including any prominent controversies.
- Don't be a smart ass RN1970. wikipedia has become the ultimate propaganda tool. So the Western corporate controled MSM is pissed off that RT is making them look bad. the whole first paragraph should be according to RT own official statements. I'm sick and tired of this game. wiki is loosing all it's credibility on most if not all "controversial" subjects.
- I must add that Carolmooredc is the exception 79.176.2.22 (talk) 16:48, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a soapbox for your pro-Putinist garbage. Also, as the user rightly mentions, calling someone a smartass because he/she is showing how to properly follow you Wikipedia guidelines isn't the smartest thing to do.Festermunk (talk) 23:37, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
- Please see WP:PA. Calling someone "smart ass" because he points you to the Lead Manual of Style (or for that matter using kissmyA as an edit summary) is counterproductive. RN1970 (talk) 17:25, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for comments. Second try, just on lead, moving sourced info from responses section to lead, and more accurately reflecting what source says. (5th ref not showing in listing for some reason):
RT, also known as Russia Today, is a government-funded[1] global multilingual television news network based in Russia. It was founded in 2005 as Russia Today by the government-controlled[2] news agency RIA Novosti with the purpose of becoming "Russia's BBC".[3] RIA Novosti asserts that it merely helped establish the "autonomous non-profit organization" which retains "complete legal, editorial and operational independence."[4] Western media has accused RT of being "state-run" and controlled by the Kremlin, but RT has responded its "mission of news with a Russian perspective" is similar to other government funded media outlets like the British Broadcasting Corporation ("BBC"), France 24, Germany's Deutsche Welle and the United States' Corporation for Public Broadcasting.[5]
References
- ^ James Painter, The boom in counter-hegemonic news channels: a case study of Telesur, (undated, circa 2006), Reuters Institute for the Study of Journalism at Oxford University.
- ^ Burton, C., Drake, A. Hitting the Headlines In Europe, A Country-By-Country Guide to Effective Media Relations. Kogan Page Ltd. 2004. p.163
- ^ RIA Novosti launches a TV channel, Russia Today, RIA Novosti, June 7, 2005.
- ^ Nikolaus von Twickel. Russia Today courts viewers with controversy. The Moscow Times. March 23, 2010.
- ^ Is RT state-run?, Rt.com website, June 16, 2011.
On a personal note, while I have seen bias in RT, especially since Putin came back into power, I don't see it as much more biased than other govt controlled stations I've watched - not to mention MSNBC owned by the (Dem Party) "government friendly" General Electric which is so bad I only watch it when Republicans are in the white house since at least you'll get an opposing view of govt action then! However, RT does allow popular critics of the US govt and its allies that you'll never see on US channels - and a lot of mainstream people expressing views they are NOT allowed to express there. So just as Voice of America was very biased during the Cold War, it did let voices into populations they might not hear otherwise. Glenn Greenwald makes a good case, though it could be structured in a more NPOV way. And hopefully other sources making similar points can be found to make this article more NPOV; as well as cutting down some of the repetitive and even hysterical WP:undue finger pointing. CarolMooreDC 17:07, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
- "Second try" version looks good to me. RN1970 (talk) 17:25, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
- More irrelevant pro-Kremlin soapboxing. "RT does allow popular critics of the US govt and its allies that you'll never see on US channels" Whatever happened to foreign interference and meddling? Good point with the Glenn Greenwald structuring though, I'll do that after this it becomes unprotected.Festermunk (talk) 23:37, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
- the first few lines :"RT, also known as Russia Today, is a government-funded[1] global multilingual television news network based in Russia. It was founded in 2005 as Russia Today by the government-controlled[2] news agency RIA Novosti with the purpose of becoming "Russia's BBC".[3]"
Are completely unacceptable. No other western news network intro is opened like this. every second word government funding this.. government control that. unless you change all other WK networks articles intro. this is not NPOV Don't talk about funding etc in the first few lines. it looks like a piece of propaganda. you can write about it further down the intro For god sake say something positive first (youtube viewing, USA hi viewing etc) Thanks Carol79.176.2.22 (talk) 17:55, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
- Take out the Russia's BBC part it's unjustifiable as lead information because it fulfills none of the purposes of lead information i.e. define the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, though it does reek of a pathetic attempt at a tu quoque fallacy.Festermunk (talk) 23:37, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
- Absolutely not. It is a direct quote from the channel's editor-in-chief from the day of RT founding. this is why RT was founded. Choke on it Festermunk.109.64.16.50 (talk) 01:58, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- I, much less Wikipedia, could give a two fuck if it's from the channel's editor-in-chief it still has to abide by Wikipedia outlines on that what is appropriate content to be included in the lead. Now I'll choke on that, but not before you die first. Festermunk (talk) 03:02, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- Absolutely not. It is a direct quote from the channel's editor-in-chief from the day of RT founding. this is why RT was founded. Choke on it Festermunk.109.64.16.50 (talk) 01:58, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- Actually, I missed this comment about the lead from 79.176.2.22 above: RT intro should not be apologetic or defensive at all. Good point and I can see that it could be toned down and moved down to last paragraph of lead, not the first.
- I was thinking that some of the older criticism (and responses) should be presented as part of history, since what was relevant before it started and in first couple years should not be presented as relevant today. (I did put comments in chrono order in one controversy section but not all them.)
- Also, controversy section should be cut as WP:Undue and may have to be separated between RT/USA and RT/English if it is clear one rather than the other is being criticized.
- "Also, controversy section should be cut as WP:Undue" Don't be ridiculous. I guess the thought of cutting the controversy section on grounds of WP:UNDUE is WP:UNDUE itself never crossed your mind did it? Festermunk (talk) 23:37, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
- Basically there are a lot of different issues to deal with to make it truly NPOV, so what I think I'll do is just make a rewrite in text document and put it on one of my Sandboxes. Will report. CarolMooreDC 19:55, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
- Also, controversy section should be cut as WP:Undue and may have to be separated between RT/USA and RT/English if it is clear one rather than the other is being criticized.
Criticism and Controversies of RT staff section and the sliming down of the responses section
[1], [2] and [3] - So what is the problem with these three changes to the article? Festermunk (talk) 23:42, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
- I have no objections to all your input in the Criticism section( so long as it is properly sourced and not manipulated from the sources).It is just a bunch of corrupted western media cry babies.and the response section exposes them.BUT Complete hands off the responses section. Ah wouldn't you just love to put your hands on and shred that Greenwald section. It ,off course ,stays. in full. 109.64.16.50 (talk) 02:05, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- No doubt you didn't have any objections to my criticism as they're far and beyond your ken, though, regardless, I'll take your approval. Not that I'm willing to reciprocate though when the protection comes down, I'm going to give Greenwald's section the treatment it deserves and shave it down to the size of a raisin bun (and do it on legitimate grounds of WP:UNDUE and WP:LONGQUOTE). I mean really, how confident can you be in RT when you have to blow up one man's article to the size of an airport spanning three blocks of quotes? Festermunk (talk) 03:17, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- First, with the edit warring, it was easy to loose track of what Festermunk deleted and added. Given it's another article where criticism of the subject's politics is greater than actual descriptions of them, one tends to be suspicious of certain patterns of deletion and addition.
- Having now reviewed it more carefully, in both cases it's not so much the content as the unnecessary repetitiveness and wordiness in both criticism and responses. (And of course out with that paragraph somebody stuck in there about the real casualty numbers in Georgian war.) A bit more from Greenwald can be quoted than what Festermunk cut (plus some criticism of Assange show which prompted it). Also, I'm discovering that some articles that were used ONLY for their criticisms also have interesting neutral info that can be used elsewhere in the article.
- Otherwise it's more about adding historical content, examples of speakers who don't sound like nuts, cleaning up presenters section, and probably removing most of "Availability" section which is unsourced and probably at least partially out of date. What's in the Corporate profile and any other sourced info (like recent contract for HD worldwide coverage) also can be added. I actually have done most of that already and will put up on my talk page soon. (Yardwork calls tomorrow...) CarolMooreDC 04:26, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- 1st paragraph: complete non-sequitur. Where is this other article I am edit warring on?
- Second paragraph: "as the unnecessary repetitiveness and wordiness in both criticism and responses" Right. Is that why you want to put in, "a bit more from Greenwald can be quoted than what Festermunk cut" even though there's already three blocks of quote from just one article that he's written? Also, it isn't my problem that criticism of RT represents a significant viewpoint about the news channel (as evidence by the amount of sources critical of RT) and accordingly should be given due weight in the article, so unless you are more specific about how the comments are unecessarily repetitive or wordy, I suggest you don't continue to pursue that line of reasoning. Festermunk (talk) 15:28, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- The Greenwald Quotes should stay in full. They address in a precise and practical way all most criticism : Evil state run, Evil state control, and the ludicrous bias and hypocrisy of the detractors.
- The only reason anyone would want to shave that section off , it is because his words are very profound and to the point. and takes away the whole "distinguishness" of the criticism.
- If you want to keep this Article NPOV these quotes must stay fully.
- If you want to make it a piece of Western MSM propaganda, why go round about it? just write "RT is an EVIL EVIL EVIL UNTRUSTWORTHY News network broadcasting from Putin Wine cellar ". all other info is not needed according to WP:UNDUE WP:NATO WP:CFR WP:LOBBY WP:FESTERMUNK ::::109.64.32.41 (talk) 13:06, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- The Greenwald Quotes should stay in full. They address in a precise and practical way all most criticism : Evil state run, Evil state control, and the ludicrous bias and hypocrisy of the detractors.
- You're sounding more and more hysterical by the post. "it is because his words are very profound and to the point." In addition to that remark being a violation of WP:YESPOV, you still have to prove how that would justify the Greenwald article warranting three blocks of quote. I suggest you read up Wikipedia guidelines before you make yourself sound any more ridiculous. Festermunk (talk) 15:28, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- NOT WP:undue has to be applied to all views. Also I found some positive comments from Danny Schechter and I'm sure more can be found. With those two, and especially with more, we can have a section on analysis or supporters or something, either before or after criticism, with this material. Also, once you list a number of the impressive guests they have had and explain in history about their philosophy and aggressive approach, there is a more complete NPOV view of the station. Research, not rants, is the solution to the POV problems. CarolMooreDC 22:48, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- "Research, not rants is the solution to the POV problems." Given, though you first have to know how to do the research are before you can actually do research. "WP:undue has to be applied to all views" Is that why you are so adamant in deleting the "Criticism of the staff of RT" section? Or why you are so adamant in citing three blocks of quote from Greenwald's one article (and some more as per your suggestion)? Festermunk (talk) 17:42, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
- It is worth keeping in mind that WP:UNDUE is about prominence of viewpoints (in reliable sources) vs. amount of weight in the article. It is not about making sure con/pro sections are of the same length, or making sure anybody looks good, bad or neutral. If we look at the references in the current version of the article, the difference is clear. If we disregard statements made by RT itself, there isn't much pro-RT in the response section. The Moscow Times and Luke Harding simply quote statements by RT's editor-in-chief, CBS News quotes the staff of RT, and Variety magazine quotes a senior journalist+sources at RT. We're basically down to Thomas Hammarberg and Glenn Greenwald, and comments by the former can barely be called pro-RT ("likely to be significantly higher than the dozens mentioned by Human Rights Watch" is a long way from saying RT was right in 2,000). The only indisputable pro-RT comments are by Greenwald. Certainly a significant source and so is Schechter, but they don't equal the quite large collection of sources in the criticism section: MosNews, Reporters Without Borders, Der Spiegel, The Guardian, The New Republic, Standpoint, Accuracy in Media, The Economist, Southern Poverty Law Center, Human Rights Watch, and The Independent (+New York Times, the article Greenwald responds to).
- Since the criticism is aimed at them, the responses by RT are very relevant and definitely should not be removed, but it would be equally problematic under WP:UNDUE to remove large sections of information from the criticism section, or remove the essence of Greenwald's comments from the response section. However, in both the pro/con sections some things could perhaps be merged, wording could be tweaked, additionally relevant sources could be located, etc. The huge, triple Greenwald quotes seem excessive, and we could easily capture the essence of his article by shortening it (a minor secondary issue, quotation marks aren't used in block quotes→WP:MOS). It would be equally odd if someone insisted on having huge quotes for every significant source in the criticism section instead of just a few sentences that capture their essence.
- "Availability" section: This section hasn't caused much controversy among editors. If I'm right in that assertion, I would suggest following WP:NOCITE instead of deleting it all now. The template {{more footnotes|section}} isn't perfect, but it can be used if people think {{cn}} at the end of each sentence is too much. I think the relative lack of information that isn't part of the criticism/response section (e.g. they have several noteworthy programs) is a larger problem than the criticism/response section. RN1970 (talk) 05:07, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
- You're taking words out of my mouth; I tend to support most of your reasoning and proposals. As for other supporting material mentioned by CarolMooreDC - sure, if it does exist, it belongs to the article (taking into account WP:WEIGHT), but i think that it should be either 'Criticism' and 'Support' sections, or 'Criticism' and 'Response to Criticism' - and not three sections ('Criticism', 'Response to Criticism' and 'Support') - IMHO, such three sections would violate WP:WEIGHT Ipsign (talk) 09:24, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
- NOT WP:undue has to be applied to all views. Also I found some positive comments from Danny Schechter and I'm sure more can be found. With those two, and especially with more, we can have a section on analysis or supporters or something, either before or after criticism, with this material. Also, once you list a number of the impressive guests they have had and explain in history about their philosophy and aggressive approach, there is a more complete NPOV view of the station. Research, not rants, is the solution to the POV problems. CarolMooreDC 22:48, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- WP:WEIGHT has destroyed Wikipedia's credibility for presenting the full picture. I have seen it time and time again. It is mainly used to suppress dissenting views from Government and MSM sources (which are both bought and payed for by a minority of the 1% super rich) .The authentic way would have been to allow the minority view to be expressed and presented fully, then simply explain why they are wrong point by point (if there is really a case. let's find out !). and to mention where the professional "consensus" stands this moment. but Wikipedia avoids that methodology and it makes it highly suspect of its motives. I am not a supporter of RT but i am very happy that they broadcast everything the "usual networks" avoid and suppress at all cost. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.65.18.160 (talk) 09:45, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
- More soapboxing. Come back when you're ready to drop the paranoid left-wing chip on your shoulder.Festermunk (talk) 17:42, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
- WP:WEIGHT is a Wikipedia policy; basically, if you disagree with it - you have two options: (a) discuss it on talk page of the policy and achieve consensus to change it; (b) to start your own online encyclopedia elsewhere. In any case, this page is a very wrong place to discuss Wikipedia policies. Also please note that we're here not to find WP:TRUTH or to promote point of view which we are passionate about, but merely to reflect (in a balanced way) points of view which already exist out there (this BTW equally applies to User:Festermunk); we are not the ones who decide what is 'right' or 'wrong', we're just summarizing what is out there (which is the whole point of any encyclopedia - to summarize existing knowledge, not to create new one). Ipsign (talk) 10:27, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
- WP:WEIGHT has destroyed Wikipedia's credibility for presenting the full picture. I have seen it time and time again. It is mainly used to suppress dissenting views from Government and MSM sources (which are both bought and payed for by a minority of the 1% super rich) .The authentic way would have been to allow the minority view to be expressed and presented fully, then simply explain why they are wrong point by point (if there is really a case. let's find out !). and to mention where the professional "consensus" stands this moment. but Wikipedia avoids that methodology and it makes it highly suspect of its motives. I am not a supporter of RT but i am very happy that they broadcast everything the "usual networks" avoid and suppress at all cost. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.65.18.160 (talk) 09:45, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
- Ipsign, I don't disagree with what you said expect : "we're just summarizing what is out there" + "(in a balanced way)" - never happens in Wikipedia due to that horrendous and outrageous policy and the ridiculous circular logic of WP:RS .(I won't add anything more here on the subject)109.65.18.160 (talk) 10:52, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
- The article on RT from Slate magazine has got opinions from both sides: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2011/06/pravda_will_set_you_free.2.html
- Here are also segments of RTAmerica Channel, Anchor Lauren Lyster responds to criticism under the headline "war on RT" etc. In chronological order (2011-2012): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-P1sybv_B0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QI5n6RmAfMA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXvH4X9lweI109.65.18.160 (talk) 10:44, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
- Yeah Youtube doesn't qualify as a reliable source so unless you have some other source for Lyster's whining I suggest you don't put that in the article. Festermunk (talk) 17:42, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
- It qualifies beautifully under WP:NOYT
In some cases, video clips published on YouTube may be acceptable as primary sources if their authenticity can be confirmed.
- The above Lyster sources authenticity are confirmed. they are hosted on RT America official YouTube Channel.79.183.20.193 (talk) 05:04, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- Notice how you are missing the last part, which says, "...should be used with caution" So even if you could establish authenticity, that isn't sufficient to use the Youtube clip. Festermunk (talk) 18:15, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- Correct. While it helps if some nonYoutube source first makes the statement, especially in things like responses to criticism Youtube can be used IF the youtube channel is credible (not likely to have re-edited the clip especially). Also for the ref to remain people CAN ask for the minutes the statement to be use to be posted and I do ask for that. One ref is sufficient; if need two, would help if quote a bit from each clip so we'll know which references what. CarolMooreDC 12:42, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- Yeah Youtube doesn't qualify as a reliable source so unless you have some other source for Lyster's whining I suggest you don't put that in the article. Festermunk (talk) 17:42, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
I really did work on this article for the last week finding more WP:RS (and using existing ones) to beef up the article so that it's more than just a hit piece with dated factual information. (Thanks for Slate. Missed that!) Happily there is some good analysis to add. As well as some good responses to some of the criticisms. But I'm going to start by cleaning up the factual areas which are less controversial. Then we can work on the more controversial stuff. CarolMooreDC 23:03, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
- Note that I do probably have better responses than Lyster's about western criticism, though I haven't listened to her tapes. If she talks about things that ref'd other wise as well, it might be relevant to discuss her comments. More description of what she says, or even better a preview here of what you want to use would help. But linking any of her complaints to WP:RS would help a lot. Just too vague. CarolMooreDC 19:02, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
RfC
An RfC: Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. – MrX 17:15, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
A request to Semi Protect this article indefinitely
The RT article is prone to vandalism and absurd negative POV pushing. I recommend putting it under semi protection or even full protection once CarolMooreDC introduces her final edit to the entire article (the Intro and criticism/response area especially) which she has been working on for the past week . I am curtain she will execute it in a balanced and NPOV way.79.183.20.193 (talk) 04:47, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- That usually means that Anon IPs can't edit. Blocking individuals who repeatedly edit war from editing the article is a better idea. CarolMooreDC 12:39, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
Descriptors of individuals
I see some people have long ones remaining while other long ones are being removed and resulting Edit wars. Except when critical to the article, it's usually best to just have a brief as possible NPOV one like "journalist" or "professor" or "RT news anchor." If it's really relevant where they work or where they teach or what channel or program they work for, fine. If it makes it more NPOV to include more info, do so. For example, "John Smith, who is suing RT for $10 million, says" or "Dick Cheney, who RT often criticizes, says" or "frequent RT guest Pedro Escobar writes." (Of course, then there's the issue of needing WP:RS to support descriptors which can be dealt with one at a time. CarolMooreDC 12:54, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
Making Criticism and Controversy more NPOV
NPOV means you don't list every single criticism you can find, no matter how petty or lacking in new information from minor source; ignore more NPOV views (which even appear in same sentence or paragraph from a source); use the word propaganda nine times in one section, etc.
Also, I think responses should be in each category since making a separate section at end means many people will forget what controversy is being alluded to and the context of the response, leading to a POV problem. Having to provide context a second time just a waste of space. Also I have at least one, maybe a couple new criticisms I would not even include unless the responses followed immediately. This is done in many BLPs and organizational articles. I'll control myself from uploading a new version until any problems with my newest entries are commented upon. CarolMooreDC 15:10, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- Note that I don't necessarily have problems with cutting the lead, as long as the important WP:RS material is presented elsewhere, as Festermunk did eventually do with some of it , and I'll do with others of it, perhaps in this section (like guests in the guest section), soon. (I have asked him to try to work out changes in a sandbox and not constantly revert himself over numerous edits which makes it difficult to follow changes and evaluate them; for either other editors on the article or editors who might later come in through RfCs or WP:NPOVN.) CarolMooreDC 17:13, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
Removal of NPOV info on RT viewpoint
User:Festermunk has deleted NPOV info on RT viewpoints at this diff leaving a WP:Uncivil "crap" comment. (More critical material that could go in either section was moved to Criticism section, making it ever more expansive.) A less than hostile NPOV comment like Heyman in the NY Times or Maczek just gets removed.
Rewritten second paragraph of "Programming and Presenters" section to make sources of info perfectly clear:
According to Marcin Maczka RT reporters examine world issues such as the financial instability and fiscal crises, financial and banking scandals, corporate impact on the global economy, and demonstrations of “outraged” protesters. Commentaries focus on human rights, curtailing armaments, environmental protection, social inequities, and natural disasters. News from Russia is of secondary importance and such reports emphasize Russian modernisation and economic achievements, as well as Russian culture and natural landscapes.[1] In 2008 Stephen Heyman wrote in the New York Times that in RT’s Russia, “corruption is not quite a scourge but a symptom of a developing economy. And concerns about street thugs, poverty and Ukraine’s aspirations for European Union membership trump fears over Vladimir V. Putin’s grip on power.”[2] Marcin Maczka writes RT has "attracted experienced journalists" and that "the reports are competent and dynamic."[1]
A response to these issues from User: Festermunk would be appreciated since lack of them is not collaboratative and makes me wonder if he will just summarily delete a subsection on guests that has more such NPOV and NOT highly critical info. CarolMooreDC 19:45, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- First off they weren't removed, they were relocated to other sections of the article (e.g. the Cohen block was moved to the Responses section). Second, there's no way somebody reading the Heyman article could come to the conclusion that it wasn't a criticism of RT, especially in the context of the paragraph in the article so unless you can provide convincing reasons as to how Heyman's paragraph (or article) supports RT, I suggest you don't put that in the "Programming and Presenters" section. I will add back the Maczka quote though, point taken, but not without a qualifer. Festermunk (talk) 20:50, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- Festermunk, you don't seem to realize that someone can have neutral or merely descriptive statements in an article that also includes harsh criticism. I think Heyman's sentence is in that category: In 2008 Stephen Heyman wrote in the New York Times that in RT’s Russia, “corruption is not quite a scourge but a symptom of a developing economy. And concerns about street thugs, poverty and Ukraine’s aspirations for European Union membership trump fears over Vladimir V. Putin’s grip on power.” At least certainly compared to the crude attacks you and others have included in the criticism section! CarolMooreDC 21:28, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
RT Article Intro (LEAD) POV
The current lead is :
RT, also known as Russia Today, is a state[1][2]/government-funded[3] multilingual Russian-based television channel. It describes itself as an "autonomous non-profit organization"[4] and retains "complete legal, editorial and operational independence."[5], although other sources have described it as pro-Kremlin.[6][7] Founded by the state-owned[8]RIA Novosti in 2005, RT, according to its corporate profile, "covers the major issues of our time for viewers wishing to question more."[9]
1.To say State + government is tautology. would you also add the current prime minister too ? absurd. it only looks like a hit piece. no other western News network is defined like this on WK. it is either "Federal" or "public ABC" etc.
2. "although other sources" you mean western sources. and predominantly in the US and UK.
3. In general other leads on wk are not like this at all :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_World_News
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Welle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France_24
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.183.7.155 (talk) 20:16, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- It's not my job that other shit exists on the BBC World News and Deutsche Welle wikipedia page; if you have a problem with how their ledes are, then make the changes you want to them. But this articie is about Russia Today, so unless you have specific examples what exact part of WP:LEDE the RT WP lede violates I suggest you rethink your argument. Festermunk (talk) 20:47, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- HAHAHA As usual you pseudo use WK policies to push your negative POV of RT .
from WP:OSE :
Sometimes these comparisons are invalid, and sometimes they are valid.
When used correctly though, these comparisons are important as the encyclopedia should be consistent in the content that it provides or excludes.
Who are you trying to fool ? do you really think anybody here is buying your B.S ?79.183.7.155 (talk) 21:05, 28 September 2012 (UTC)