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::Elonka, due to this article being a [[No Man's Land]] of two main warring [[Political factions|factions]], and I a new face, it's best that I don't touch the article itself (and upset an editor who's worked on a section for months). I'm suggesting that existing editors to go back and [[proof reading|proof read]] their work, so that as a working copy, any third party that comes to this page can make sense of the article. There's too many sentences that literally cancel each other's citation out. When two sides war over how to make a [[sausage]] and it's ingredients, often they forget that other folks will have to eat it. But what looks good on the production floor, doesn't for third parties who aren't into sausage making (and probably throw up at the sight of it!). This is a friendly "heads up", that between the duking out of sources, that the readability side shouldn't be regarded as what happens ''after'' the sausage is made itself. Those Googling sources will come by, and these third parties deserve fine sausages to eat, even if the sausage itself is a hot link with an extra side of [[Cayenne pepper|Cayenne]]. [[User:FResearcher|FResearcher]] ([[User talk:FResearcher|talk]]) 13:08, 28 July 2008 (UTC) |
::Elonka, due to this article being a [[No Man's Land]] of two main warring [[Political factions|factions]], and I a new face, it's best that I don't touch the article itself (and upset an editor who's worked on a section for months). I'm suggesting that existing editors to go back and [[proof reading|proof read]] their work, so that as a working copy, any third party that comes to this page can make sense of the article. There's too many sentences that literally cancel each other's citation out. When two sides war over how to make a [[sausage]] and it's ingredients, often they forget that other folks will have to eat it. But what looks good on the production floor, doesn't for third parties who aren't into sausage making (and probably throw up at the sight of it!). This is a friendly "heads up", that between the duking out of sources, that the readability side shouldn't be regarded as what happens ''after'' the sausage is made itself. Those Googling sources will come by, and these third parties deserve fine sausages to eat, even if the sausage itself is a hot link with an extra side of [[Cayenne pepper|Cayenne]]. [[User:FResearcher|FResearcher]] ([[User talk:FResearcher|talk]]) 13:08, 28 July 2008 (UTC) |
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:::FResearcher - I actually agree with you. In fact, if you want to go through and make this a decent read I will support you to the best of my abilities. it will get you in some hot water, yes: various people - you'll see who - will try to attack you in the hopes of provoking an unreasoned response, all in an attempt to get you blocked. just ignore them, because it's mostly smoke - leave a note on my talk page about anything that worries you. politics on wikipedia is mostly stuck at the grammar school level (tease someone until they get mad, then rat them out to the teacher (errr.. admins) as though it's all their fault). it's sad, but there's not much you can do about it except learn the ropes, keep your cool, and keep at it. :-) --[[User_talk:Ludwigs2|<span style="color:darkblue;font-weight:bold">Ludwigs</span><span style="color:green;font-weight:bold">2</span>]] 21:03, 28 July 2008 (UTC) |
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== References == |
== References == |
Revision as of 21:03, 28 July 2008
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Conditions for editing
In my authority as an uninvolved administrator, per Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Homeopathy, I am placing some restrictions on the editing of this article. These restrictions are in effect at least until August 30, 2008:
- 0RR, meaning No reverts, except for obvious vandalism.
- A "revert" is defined as something that might be done with the "undo" or "rollback" buttons, or any manual edit which effectively does a clean revert to a previous version of the article. However, changes to the work of other editors are allowed, and even encouraged, as long as an attempt is made to try different compromise wording than what has been tried in the past.
- Keep comments and edit summaries very neutral and civil.
- Ensure that any new material that is added, has a reliable source
- If you see someone add something that you disagree with, don't revert it, change it. Specifically: Try to change it to a compromise wording, or add some (sourced) alternate view wording nearby.
- If you see something added with a source, that you do not think is a reliable source, add a {{verify credibility}} tag next to it. Discussions can also be started at the talkpage, and/or at the reliable sources noticeboard.
- If you see a sentence that you don't think properly reflects what is in a source, change it so that it does. Or, add a {{verify source}} tag to it
- If you see something that's added that is unsourced, but it's plausible, don't just remove it. Instead, add a {{fact}} tag to it. Then, if no source is provided in a reasonable amount of time, the statement can be removed.
- If something is added that is unsourced, that is obviously troublesome (such as very biased or potentially untrue), it can be deleted on the spot. Please use a clear edit summary such as "removing unsourced information, see talkpage"). If there is a source though, then use one of the other above steps instead.
- Do not remove reliable sources.
- Long sections of the article can be condensed. Do not remove their sources, but information can definitely be moved around and re-worded.
Bottom line: Stay civil. Don't revert other editors. If you disagree with an addition, don't delete it, change it.
Good luck, Elonka 18:38, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
Administrative notes
- This section is for the use of uninvolved administrators in managing the dispute on this page
Uninvolved admins
- Elonka (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- GRBerry (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Neil (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Seicer (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
Editors under ArbCom restrictions
- The following active editors on this page have been notified of restrictions, per Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Homeopathy
- ScienceApologist (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
- Ronz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)}
- Was banned from editing homeopathy-related articles for one week, starting July 6
- QuackGuru (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
- Jossi (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) (administrator participating as involved editor) [1]
- Minderbinder (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
- Shot info (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
Other frequent editors on this page
- Note: Being listed here does not imply that these editors were disruptive. It is simply for reference, a list of those editors who have recently been actively engaged with this article.
- Arthur Rubin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) (administrator participating as involved editor)
- DigitalC (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
- Fyslee (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
- ImperfectlyInformed (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
- Itsmejudith (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
- Jefffire (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
- Levine2112 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
- Ludwigs2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
- MaxPont (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
- McGeddon (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
- Petergkeyes (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
- Orangemarlin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
Admin log
- Conditions established: 18:38, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
- Page protection lifted by Seicer. 15:43, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
- QuackGuru (talk · contribs) formally cautioned about talkpage disruption.[2][3] If he continues repeating the same charges over and over, I recommend temporarily banning him from the talkpage. --Elonka 15:12, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
- Jossi (talk · contribs) cautioned about reverting. GRBerry 18:06, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
- Minderbinder (talk · contribs) cautioned about disruption.[4][5] --Elonka 17:19, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
- Shot info (talk · contribs) cautioned about reverting.[6] --Elonka 16:35, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
Discussion
- Anyone, admin or editor, who has questions or comments on any of the above, may post here.
consultant pharmacist review
I received a copy of this review, and edited the article to reflect it's position correctly, but I think it now has way too much weight in the article. I mean, it's an 8 paragraph review in a minor journal that at best reflects the opinion of pharmacists, but it's carrying a whole lot prominence in this article. any suggestions about how that can be adjusted? --Ludwigs2 17:22, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
- Remove it. ScienceApologist (talk) 22:57, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
- Please don't. It's one of the only truly reliable and external sources the article has. I will shorten it and you and SA can see if you like the result. Itsmejudith (talk) 23:25, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
- Already shortened. ScienceApologist (talk) 00:27, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
- And I did shorten it and kept it reasonably balanced and now it is far too long again and unbalanced. What a lot of unnecessary effort. Itsmejudith (talk) 20:52, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- Already shortened. ScienceApologist (talk) 00:27, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
- Please don't. It's one of the only truly reliable and external sources the article has. I will shorten it and you and SA can see if you like the result. Itsmejudith (talk) 23:25, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
- Remove it. ScienceApologist (talk) 22:57, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
Trimming
I trimmed a lot. There may still be issues of balance, so I kept in a tag. I don't understand why certain references were quoted with cherry-picked quotes while other references were more or less left unexplored. I think the best thing to do is keep the synopses of the articles as short and to the point as possible since there are so many sources that use/discuss qw. ScienceApologist (talk) 23:16, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
- Well, maybe people were trying to improve the article a bit at a time. I believe I myself used the word "cherry-picked" a while ago, when some people were trying to slant the Consultant Pharmacist review in a direction. But it isn't very conducive to good faith. I actually am not finding that many good sources that discuss Quackwatch. Of course, Google throws a lot up, but they turn out not to be reliable. There are few mentions in academic sources. I completely agree it is great to keep everything short and to the point. X said, Y said... Itsmejudith (talk) 23:33, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
- excuse me - I think I need an administrator's attention here. several properly-sourced but critical statements I added to the article have been removed without explanation, and several other's have been minimized ridiculously. this is in violation of the current administreative policy on this page. list below.
- this quote ""He [Barrett] seems to be putting down trying to be objective, [but...]Quackwatch.com is consistently provocative and entertaining and occasionally informative." Chowka also "feels it is okay for HHS to mention Quackwatch.com as one of many sources," but adds "I personally think he's running against the tide of history. But that's his problem, not ours". from the Ladd article disappeared entirely, as did the Dr. Thomas R. Eng, the director of the panel's study, later stated, "The government doesn't endorse Web sites." comment, even as the positive side of those articles was amplified.
- this quote Joel Best asserts that sites such a quackwatch that are "devoted to particular social issues or types of data" may "vary in their concerns and underlying ideologies, and their critiques should be examined critically rather than simply being accepted." was watered down to say that Joel Best encouraged a critical eye, which is a significantly different meaning
- David Hufford went from being a "Professor of Medical Humanities at the Penn State College of Medicine" to an alternative medicine proponent
- Walter Ernst became a Medical historian and sometime alternative medicine proponent
- I don't mind a little competitive editing (that's what gets rid of POV views) but when it gets to the point of whitewashing sources, that's just ridiculous. --Ludwigs2 05:48, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
- excuse me - I think I need an administrator's attention here. several properly-sourced but critical statements I added to the article have been removed without explanation, and several other's have been minimized ridiculously. this is in violation of the current administreative policy on this page. list below.
- Normally (and I have in early incarnations of this article) would just point out WP:WEIGHT, that QW is largely accepted by the greater community and also the more specific medical and scientific community. Sure it has it's critics and only the notable ones need inclusion. To include them all is ignoring WP:WEIGHT regardless of if it's "sourced". However it's now up to admins to determine what is weight and NPOV now, so I'm not going to edit the article either way. Shot info (talk) 06:18, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
- Actually, no, it's probably not up to the admins, it's up to the editors. If someone feels that too much was trimmed, I recommend adding a smaller portion back. Don't revert, but try to find a compromise. Then if whoever trimmed, feels that you added too much back, they can trim again (without reverting), still trying to find a compromise, etc. If there's a lot going on, I recommend focusing on one section of the article at a time, or even just one paragraph or sentence, and go back and forth that way, to see if you can find a consensus version. --Elonka 17:12, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
- I'll go ahead and add some of the deleted sections back, but I expect as soon as I do that either SA or QG is going to accuse me of reverting and ask to have me banned. I'd like to reiterate my basic point, though: SA and QG have along history (I'll provide diffs if necessary) of trying to create a version of this article with no criticisms whatsoever, and have been recalcitrant about compromising on that position at all. I'm more than happy to reach for an effective balance (per Shot info's suggestions), but the current editing rules here make that an impossibility where editors are not willing to work in good faith. all I'm asking from the administrators here is that they take a dim view on edits that are clearly tendentious, like the ones I noted above. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ludwigs2 (talk • contribs) 18:34, July 16, 2008 (UTC)
- Actually, no, it's probably not up to the admins, it's up to the editors. If someone feels that too much was trimmed, I recommend adding a smaller portion back. Don't revert, but try to find a compromise. Then if whoever trimmed, feels that you added too much back, they can trim again (without reverting), still trying to find a compromise, etc. If there's a lot going on, I recommend focusing on one section of the article at a time, or even just one paragraph or sentence, and go back and forth that way, to see if you can find a consensus version. --Elonka 17:12, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
- Normally (and I have in early incarnations of this article) would just point out WP:WEIGHT, that QW is largely accepted by the greater community and also the more specific medical and scientific community. Sure it has it's critics and only the notable ones need inclusion. To include them all is ignoring WP:WEIGHT regardless of if it's "sourced". However it's now up to admins to determine what is weight and NPOV now, so I'm not going to edit the article either way. Shot info (talk) 06:18, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
- Restoring deleted information is a violation of the conditions of editing and a revert. QuackGuru 18:36, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
- LMFAO - yikes, I got a ban threat even before I made any changes. this is hilarious. :-) --Ludwigs2 18:48, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
- Please take your arguments to AN/I or WQA. However, since your accusations lack proof, they are definitely uncivil and rude, and probably a personal attack. Please note that if you go to ANI, I will bring up your baseless accusations. Quackguru has been a valued editor here for much longer than you, and if there was a COI issue, it would have been dealt with much earlier than this. If you would like help in constructing your ANI, I will be most happy to help. Also, you should review the difference between WP:BAN and WP:BLOCK. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 18:56, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
- See WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA. Please WP:AGF.[7]
- Per WEIGHT, adding too much criticism is a violation of NPOV. Quackwatch's viewpoint is of the mainstream view and not fringe. QuackGuru 19:09, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
- Folks, please keep discussions focused on the article, not on the editors. And don't worry about someone making threats of a ban, unless it's one of the uninvolved administrators who's saying it. And don't worry, administrators are not going to ban someone just because an editor said "ban them". In short, please continue with good faith editing, which is in adherence with the #Conditions for editing. The uninvolved administrators here will be the decision makers on what is or isn't in adherence with the conditions. --Elonka 19:12, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
- Succinctly, since Elonka has already made the most important long explanation, none of the posts between those of 17:12, 16 July 2008 and 19:12, 16 July 2008 by Elonka should have been made.
- Additionally, QuackGuru - you are not quite right in the first of those posts; only an identical restoration would be a revert. Rewordings or putting back into a different context would not be a revert. And remember that changes elsewhere in the article can be a relevant change of context - for example if material was removed in section A as duplicating section B, but it has since been removed in B, then putting it back into A would not be a revert. There is no first mover advantage here; just a requirement to keep looking for new possible compromises until everyone can accept the article despite it not being exactly what they prefer. GRBerry 19:30, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
- Folks, please keep discussions focused on the article, not on the editors. And don't worry about someone making threats of a ban, unless it's one of the uninvolved administrators who's saying it. And don't worry, administrators are not going to ban someone just because an editor said "ban them". In short, please continue with good faith editing, which is in adherence with the #Conditions for editing. The uninvolved administrators here will be the decision makers on what is or isn't in adherence with the conditions. --Elonka 19:12, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
- Please take your arguments to AN/I or WQA. However, since your accusations lack proof, they are definitely uncivil and rude, and probably a personal attack. Please note that if you go to ANI, I will bring up your baseless accusations. Quackguru has been a valued editor here for much longer than you, and if there was a COI issue, it would have been dealt with much earlier than this. If you would like help in constructing your ANI, I will be most happy to help. Also, you should review the difference between WP:BAN and WP:BLOCK. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 18:56, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
The Review section needs trimming again.[8] I recommend we revert the edit that added a large paragraph to that section.[9] QuackGuru 07:59, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- Which definition of "revert" are you using? What other changes would you suggest at the same time in order to attempt compromise and comply with Elonka's rule? ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 15:45, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
Only one source removed
- Jay, Nordlinger (2003-06-30). "Water Fights: Believe It or Not, the Fluoridation War Still Rages -- with a Twist You May Like". National Review. Retrieved 2007-10-30.
{{cite journal}}
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(help)
- Jay, Nordlinger (2003-06-30). "Water Fights: Believe It or Not, the Fluoridation War Still Rages -- with a Twist You May Like". National Review. Retrieved 2007-10-30.
The National Review is a source that generally should be looked on with some skepticism as they carry with them a serious political bent and are explicitly subjective and partisan in their writing. Since the intersection of science and politics is very tenuous in the area of alt. medicine, it is likely that the National Review is somewhat orthogonal as a source, but nevertheless, it is provocative enough to deserve removal. Let's stick to sources that are at least paying lip service to objectivity. ScienceApologist (talk) 23:26, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
- National Review is RS, SA, whether you approve of their politics or not. Political magazines often have a slant but they can still be reliable. As I'm sure you know, the standard way to deal with this is to ensure they are balanced. Itsmejudith (talk) 23:33, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
- It has nothing to do with whether I agree with its politics or not. If it was an article from The Nation or The Daily Kos I would make the same objection. I'm just saying that obviously subjective sources should be excised as in such situations authors are not acting as "objective" reporters but instead are employed to promote the particular editorial opinion of the publication board. ScienceApologist (talk) 00:26, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
- And we actually also happen to have the Village Voice, with quite a different political outlook. Itsmejudith (talk) 23:51, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
- Actually, the Village Voice is not the same thing as the National Review. It is not a political periodical and there is no statement of political belief or explicit subjectivity associated with the mission statement of the newspaper. The National Review is a strictly subjective work meant to advance opinion rather than attempt to report objectively. You might accuse the Village Voice of having a different "political outlook", but as a periodical it is not explicitly political. Still, I'm not altogether opposed to looking at the Village Voice as a source more carefully. I'm not convinced that Donna Ladd is all that useful as an attributed person. ScienceApologist (talk) 00:26, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
- I stand corrected. Quite a different outlook, generally. Itsmejudith (talk) 00:28, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
- Actually, the Village Voice is not the same thing as the National Review. It is not a political periodical and there is no statement of political belief or explicit subjectivity associated with the mission statement of the newspaper. The National Review is a strictly subjective work meant to advance opinion rather than attempt to report objectively. You might accuse the Village Voice of having a different "political outlook", but as a periodical it is not explicitly political. Still, I'm not altogether opposed to looking at the Village Voice as a source more carefully. I'm not convinced that Donna Ladd is all that useful as an attributed person. ScienceApologist (talk) 00:26, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
- With proper attribution of the opinion, I do not see why this source will not be useful. After all, the politics of medicine are quite obvious, irregardless of the opinion of the National Review. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:38, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
- Removing a source, was a violation of the #Conditions for editing. In the future, don't remove sources, but instead modify the information from that source (perhaps as Jossi suggested), or else tag the source as unreliable, with {{vc}} (verify credibility) so that it can be discussed. But wholesale removal of sources is discouraged unless there is consensus to remove the source, or there is some other blatant issue going on (such as BLP). --Elonka 17:16, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
- With proper attribution of the opinion, I do not see why this source will not be useful. After all, the politics of medicine are quite obvious, irregardless of the opinion of the National Review. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:38, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
POV assertion
labeling David Hufford as a "cultural apologist for alternative medicine" is currently not sourced at all, and is inherently biased phrasing. if sourcing can be provided, I'll rephrase, otherwise it needs to be removed. --Ludwigs2 23:32, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
- I sourced it to his CV. Perhaps you should look at the references before making declarations. ScienceApologist (talk) 23:35, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
- Well now, isn't that interesting. The CV has been removed from the Hershey Medical Center site. Kaiwhakahaere (talk) 23:56, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
- I sourced it to his CV. Perhaps you should look at the references before making declarations. ScienceApologist (talk) 23:35, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I did look at his CV, and I don't see the words 'cultural apologist' anywhere on on that page. that means that your phrase is either (a) unsourced in its entirety, or (b) a particularly dramatic example of synthesis to advance a position. or am I missing something?
- I'll add that using someone's CV in order to make a defamatory statement about them is probably a gross violation of WP:BLP, but I'll leave that for the admins to decide.
- Kaiwhakahaere - the link SA gave isn't to the Hershey Medical Center. do you have a different link? --Ludwigs2 00:05, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
- I'm confused, Ludwigs, you seem to be going for a grabbag of policies here (WP:POV, WP:RS, WP:BLP, WP:SYN, which one do you actually have a problem with? Now that the source is in, of course it's impossible to take out (per the rules). Shot info (talk) 00:19, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
- BLP takes precedence over all other policies, so anything that's a BLP violation can (and should) be removed immediately. However, do use a clear edit summary such as "Removing BLP violation, see talk," and please follow up with a detailed explanation for your reasoning. --Elonka 00:22, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
- (ec) I know that, the WP policies tell me so. But given the rules above (again) common sense editing in line with Wikipillars is not possible (ie/ sources stay in, you have written the rules not me - obviously they clash with policy, so rewrite them). However, as I stated above, Ludwigs alphabet soup of policy violations is confusing. Obiviously he has a problem with an edit, but he hasn't really stated what it is other than applying some scattershot to all policies under the sun. Clarity would be nice to cease my confusion. But will leave the actual editing up to univolved admins, after all, editors cannot removed sourced material in line with the policy-clashing rules above. Shot info (talk) 00:28, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
- Ludwigs, here is where I went to check the CV. Wonder why the difference. Kaiwhakahaere (talk) 00:27, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
- Sometimes with altmed advocates, there's a difference to what they claim they represent and what they actually represent. Shot info (talk) 00:37, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
- Shot info, I find it is fairly common to have a problem simultaneously with all those policies. I might find two points put together, neither reliably sourced, that together make a synthesis, that pushes a POV that is at odds with the purpose of a BLP. Probably because I hang out in parts of the wiki that get that stuff chucked in. Usually it is straightforward to point out that policy is being breached. Hope you can get an explanation that doesn't confuse you. I'm not sure if using someone's cv/resume to make a potentially defamatory statement is worse than using any other material, probably about the same. Itsmejudith (talk) 00:38, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
- Sometimes with altmed advocates, there's a difference to what they claim they represent and what they actually represent. Shot info (talk) 00:37, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
- BLP takes precedence over all other policies, so anything that's a BLP violation can (and should) be removed immediately. However, do use a clear edit summary such as "Removing BLP violation, see talk," and please follow up with a detailed explanation for your reasoning. --Elonka 00:22, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
- I'm confused, Ludwigs, you seem to be going for a grabbag of policies here (WP:POV, WP:RS, WP:BLP, WP:SYN, which one do you actually have a problem with? Now that the source is in, of course it's impossible to take out (per the rules). Shot info (talk) 00:19, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
- Kaiwhakahaere - the link SA gave isn't to the Hershey Medical Center. do you have a different link? --Ludwigs2 00:05, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Kaiwhakahaere - for some reason the link you used had a " CV" tagged onto the end of the link - removing it brings you back to the correct page. either it's a typo, or the page has moved recently to its current position.
- Shot Info - it seems to me that a violation of any one of those rules would be sufficient for removing the source. or are you suggesting that if a passage violates multiple rules it should be kept in until we decide which rule it violates most? right now I'm going to remove it on the BLP issue, since I happen to think 'cultural apologist' is a defamatory phrase. we can discuss that further, and if we decide that it's not defamatory then we can address the other point, which is that the term 'cultural apologist' is not sourced by the CV, and any attempt to argue that it is must be improper synthesis. --Ludwigs2 00:42, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
- (e/c)Kaiwhakahaere, that link doesn't point towards a CV, but rather to a "Meet the faculty section". Your formatting of the link was slightly off, and it should be [10]. It certainly doesn't use the phrase "cultural apologist". - DigitalC (talk) 00:43, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
- (e/c)OK, I see what I did, silly me. While reading the recent change, I decided to see exactly what the CV said, so I copied the url in the current revision text to paste into a new window (to have two open at once). Unfortunately I inadvertantly picked up the letters CV when I copied, and by amazing coincidence it took me to the Hershey Medical site which said "You have requested a document which does not exist on our server". Mea culpa. Kaiwhakahaere (talk) 01:25, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
- (e/c)Kaiwhakahaere, that link doesn't point towards a CV, but rather to a "Meet the faculty section". Your formatting of the link was slightly off, and it should be [10]. It certainly doesn't use the phrase "cultural apologist". - DigitalC (talk) 00:43, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
- Ludwigs, make up your mind and present clear reasons why you want something changed. How your text reads is just coming across as WP:IDONTLIKEIT masked as multiple policy violations. Shot info (talk) 01:18, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) Shot info, how much clearer can I be? let me itemize the argument for you...
- 'cultural apologist' seems to be defamatory, violating BLP, therefore it should be removed on those grounds alone
- if 'cultural apologist' is judged not to be defamatory, it is still the case that it is not present as given in the source used, therefore (without some other source, or some other argument) it should be removed
- no other reliable source is given for 'cultural apologist' - no help there
- asserting 'cultural apologist' from the CV would require inappropriate synthesis - no help there
you can argue with any of those points that you like, but ultimately you'll have to address all of them. face it, this was just a bad POV assertion that had no place in the article to begin with. --Ludwigs2 01:36, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
- As Elonka said, just try rewording it! I did. ScienceApologist (talk) 21:16, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- and I tagged it as original research. --Ludwigs2 21:45, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- Did you read his papers? ScienceApologist (talk) 23:10, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- "Cultural apologist" doesn't impart any information as a description. Apologists side with viewpoints that other people attack, such as "apologist for Islam". (You couldn't call an academic that without violating BLP.) You can't be an apologist for culture, a human universal. However, it would work well as a step on a career track in The Sims. Itsmejudith (talk) 09:26, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- Did you read his papers? ScienceApologist (talk) 23:10, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- and I tagged it as original research. --Ludwigs2 21:45, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
POV in site content section
The following sentence is blatantly POV and should be fixed. "The site also provides links to hundreds of trusted health sites." I have tried to repair it twice, but other editors have reverted my attempts each time, so far. The word, "trusted," in particular, is non-neutral, and indicates a clear point of view. I still favor this alternative: "The site also provides links to many like-minded websites." Petergkeyes (talk) 03:47, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- It's a quote from a sourse isn't it? So are you proposing to alter the original text in the source? Shot info (talk) 04:18, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- No. The original text is not appropriate content for Wikipedia, because it espouses a point of view that is not neutral. I would further speculate that Quackwatch's provision of a links page is not particularly interesting, or unique. But, if a mention of it must be made, then the word "trusted" must go. Petergkeyes (talk) 04:43, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- Peter, you write: "The original text is not appropriate content for Wikipedia, because it espouses a point of view that is not neutral." Please stop and rethink what you've written. You are pretty directly stating that Wikipedia must not include content that "espouses a point of view that is not neutral." That only applies to article content that is editorializing by editors. That's not what NPOV means, and doing what you are suggesting would in fact violate NPOV. NPOV requires that we include all notable POV that are sourced using RS. That's basically all we do here! We document POV, and in fact much of Wikipedia is just that - lots of well-sourced POV. Without it Wikipedia would be a mass of neutral, meaningless nonsense. We don't even concern ourselves with "truth" here, just verifiable POV. -- Fyslee / talk 06:23, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- As explained in other locations, please indent your replies. The tag you have added in appropriate for the article. Try a section header instead. Also you will have to be clearer. You are the one who changed the information from a reference to a quote and then you have tried to modify the quote. Now you are saying the original text is not appropriate? What is appropriate. The fact is, there are sources that say QW provides links to trusted sites. There is a reference which states that. So what is the problem? It cannot be NPOV because the very nature of the article, and it's supporting source is NPOV and supported by an RS. Curiously the provision of a links page is one of the things that the rest-of-the-world likes QW for, hence it's mention in the article, and the reference that states so. Shot info (talk) 05:39, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- Respectfully, you are mistaken, in that I did not change the wording (i.e. many like-minded websites) to the NPOV "trusted sites." The source's proclamation of trustedness does not make the claim encyclopedic. The claim is an opinion, and therefore needs to be presented as such, or not at all. Petergkeyes (talk) 07:41, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- If a web site is trusted by a lot of people, and is sourced as that, then it is a "trusted" web site. We're not saying that Quackwatch is linking to "objectively correct health sites" or even "trustworthy health sites". We're just reporting the source that says people trust them. --McGeddon (talk) 09:45, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- The source says "trusted websites". But looking into this raises a whole load of questions for me. 1) Why is this article cited to Thomson Gale rather than to the actual magazine or journal? 2) If this is a reliable source, then it is an excellent source for the article. It is a very favourable review and should feature prominently in the "reviews" section. 3) But what kind of source is it? Is it only a news magazine? Does it regularly publish reviews by experts in the same way as the Consultant Pharmacist. 4) What is the "American Running and Fitness Association"? No WP article and a Live Search doesn't find a official website for them. 5) If this is not a reliable source, then why does the article cite it in the first place? Thanks. Itsmejudith (talk) 10:03, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- Sorry, I changed the unencyclopedic "trusted" (which shouldn't have had the {{weasel-inline}} tag) to a direct quote, without checking whether the source is reliable. Someone isn't watching the edits carefully enough.
- We now return you to your regularly scheduled flame war. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 00:19, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- LOL, thank you Arthur. To continue - anyone want to argue that this is RS? Itsmejudith (talk) 16:14, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- The source says "trusted websites". But looking into this raises a whole load of questions for me. 1) Why is this article cited to Thomson Gale rather than to the actual magazine or journal? 2) If this is a reliable source, then it is an excellent source for the article. It is a very favourable review and should feature prominently in the "reviews" section. 3) But what kind of source is it? Is it only a news magazine? Does it regularly publish reviews by experts in the same way as the Consultant Pharmacist. 4) What is the "American Running and Fitness Association"? No WP article and a Live Search doesn't find a official website for them. 5) If this is not a reliable source, then why does the article cite it in the first place? Thanks. Itsmejudith (talk) 10:03, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- If a web site is trusted by a lot of people, and is sourced as that, then it is a "trusted" web site. We're not saying that Quackwatch is linking to "objectively correct health sites" or even "trustworthy health sites". We're just reporting the source that says people trust them. --McGeddon (talk) 09:45, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- Respectfully, you are mistaken, in that I did not change the wording (i.e. many like-minded websites) to the NPOV "trusted sites." The source's proclamation of trustedness does not make the claim encyclopedic. The claim is an opinion, and therefore needs to be presented as such, or not at all. Petergkeyes (talk) 07:41, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
Rules for the Addition and Removal of Tags
To Elonka and other admins. Please articulate the rules for the addition of tags, and hence the removal of said tags. According to Elonka, if a tag is removed, it is a reversion, regardless of the reasons nor the explanations on the talk page. This seems to apply for article, section and inline removals of tags. Clarification would be nice. Shot info (talk) 22:57, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- Sure: When a tag is added, it should be clear why the tag is added. With most inline tags, the reasoning should be fairly obvious that a source or sentence is being challenged, immediately preceding the tag. For other tags, such as if/when {{neutral}} is added to the top of the page, it should be accompanied with a detailed rationale on the talkpage as to the reasoning for the tag. This rationale should be in the form of constructive suggestions. Not, "The article isn't neutral", but instead specific statements like, "There is too much information on (theory A)" or "Not enough information on (theory B) in proportion with the rest of the article", etc. Or even better than a tag, is to just go ahead and edit the article to bring it into compliance.
- If the concerns that accompany a tag are addressed, the tag can be removed. On the flip side, if someone adds a tag and it is not clear why the tag is there, then a section can be started on the talkpage about the tag, asking for clarification. If no specific reasons are brought forward in a reasonable amount of time, then the tag can be removed.
- Make sense? --Elonka 23:11, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- Sure it does, can you explain exactly why was the article NPOV tag was appropriate? Please answer in the light of the minimal talkpage discussion from the editor who added it. Then consider the nature of the tag removal, the edit summary and the talk page discussion. The rules you articulate above where followed...yet you slap a warning. Why is that? Shot info (talk) 23:14, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- If you are referring to the revert for which you were warned,[11] it is because another editor added the tag,[12] and then within 10 minutes, you removed it, without making any other changes. That was a clear revert and a violation of the page's 0RR restriction. If you disagreed with the tag, better would have been to ask at the talkpage as to his reasoning for the tag; or, if you felt that you already understood the reasoning, you could have made a change to the article to address the concern, and then removed the tag. As for the fact that you just recently added the tag,[13] you should now post a clear explanation here at the talkpage, as to why you think the tag is justified. Or you can simply remove the tag yourself (a self-revert). But if you choose to leave the tag on the page, but cannot supply specific, reasonable, and constructive suggestions as to your reasoning, two things will happen: (1) any editor can remove the tag; and (2) you will probably be subjected to further restrictions, for violating WP:POINT. --Elonka 23:34, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- Elonka, please examine the addition of the original tag [14] and look for the explanation of why and the context it was added. You have failed to do so, which is why (once again) you have not followed your own rules. With regards to my addition of the tag, I am just returning Peter's tag [15]. Perhaps you should ask Peter why he added it in the first place and then advise editors as to the hows, whys and whens it can be removed. Remember the question is about the addition of tags as well. FWIW you have also ignored my explaination of its removal (which is in the talkpage, I encourage you to review it). Shot info (talk) 23:43, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- If you are referring to the revert for which you were warned,[11] it is because another editor added the tag,[12] and then within 10 minutes, you removed it, without making any other changes. That was a clear revert and a violation of the page's 0RR restriction. If you disagreed with the tag, better would have been to ask at the talkpage as to his reasoning for the tag; or, if you felt that you already understood the reasoning, you could have made a change to the article to address the concern, and then removed the tag. As for the fact that you just recently added the tag,[13] you should now post a clear explanation here at the talkpage, as to why you think the tag is justified. Or you can simply remove the tag yourself (a self-revert). But if you choose to leave the tag on the page, but cannot supply specific, reasonable, and constructive suggestions as to your reasoning, two things will happen: (1) any editor can remove the tag; and (2) you will probably be subjected to further restrictions, for violating WP:POINT. --Elonka 23:34, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- Sure it does, can you explain exactly why was the article NPOV tag was appropriate? Please answer in the light of the minimal talkpage discussion from the editor who added it. Then consider the nature of the tag removal, the edit summary and the talk page discussion. The rules you articulate above where followed...yet you slap a warning. Why is that? Shot info (talk) 23:14, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
Unfortunate moving of refs
A recent edit by Itsmejudith moved several refs, and this has created an unfortunate and highly unusual situation which can't easily be reverted, since too many other edits have intervened. It should have been immediately reverted. We are sleeping on the job! Refs should and are normally placed immediately after the word or phrase to which they apply. Moving them all into a jumble at the end of a sentence or paragraph screws up the documentation process. How are readers to know which part of a sentence the ref applies? Verifiability is important here, and refs should not be separated from their reason for existence. That's why we do it the way we do. Please don't allow this to happen again in the future. This is going to be difficult to undo, but it needs to be done, preferably by Itsmejudith -- Fyslee / talk 06:05, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- I believe that under the restricted conditions of editing this article, no reverts will be permitted at this time. Petergkeyes (talk) 06:45, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- I didn't mean to mess up the encyclopedia. Who says that references should be placed mid-way through a sentence? When I was involved in getting Islam to FA we were told to move all the refs to the ends of the sentences, so I did that here. I'll double and treble check on this one. Itsmejudith (talk) 13:05, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- WP:CITE "Material may be referenced mid-sentence, but inline citations are usually placed at the end of a sentence or paragraph. " I'll look in other places too. Itsmejudith (talk) 13:08, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- Per WP:IAR, in the case of multiple references which support different (and contradictory) points of a sentence or paragraph, it's important that the references reside near (immediately after, per the MoS) the statements referenced. I haven't checked whether the specific sentences Fyslee is complaining about have that problem, but there are many self-contradictory sentences in this article, because the different clauses are supported by different references. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 13:29, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- I don't see that as a problem, because I kept the references in the original order. Say I replaced "According to A, pigs can fly (ref to A), but according to B, they can't. (ref to B)", with "According to A, pigs can fly, but according to B, they can't.(refs to A and B). The reader can still see which is which. Now some of the cases I changed were much more complicated than that. Might this not indicate that there is room for improvement in the style? Namely: there are a number of lists; is that good? Having spent so much blood, sweat and tears on this article - about a topic I could hardly care less about - I would like to see the job through and get the article towards GA or even FA. Anyone else up for it? Itsmejudith (talk) 13:39, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- I've left a message on the talk page of WP:CITE asking if I should self-revert. Itsmejudith (talk) 13:40, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- I've had a message directing me towards advice that citations don't have to be at the end of sentences. I've asked the editor to come and have a look here at the results of my efforts, as I'm still not clear whether reversion is called for. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:12, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
David Hufford
His introduction should be fair and neutral, and should not strip him of his academic title. Petergkeyes (talk) 06:42, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- Fyslee - please don't tell me to read Hufford's work and make a decision - that's OR. find me a secondary source that says he's a advocate of "whatever", or else call it a day. --Ludwigs2 06:59, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- Please excuse my terse edit summary. My bad! I'm not asking for OR, since even the titles of his works and the subject matter should make the description self-evident. We try to attribute things here, especially where the author's relevance to the subject matter is concerned, as in this case. -- Fyslee / talk 06:28, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
- Unless somebody can properly cite a reliable source stating Hufford's alleged philosophy on alternative medicine, it does not belong in this article. Petergkeyes (talk) 03:55, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
- Actually, I agree. However, the subject (or, at least, the title) of his Ph.D. thesis (as quoted in his CV) probably should be mentioned as part of his credentials. It's as relevant and as sourced as his "professor emeritis" standing. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 12:29, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
- not unless that thesis has something to do with Quackwatch. look, I understand what you guys want to do here - you want to label Hufford as a AltMed supporter so that people will read his comments as a biased critique from an advocate rather than a neutral critique from an academic. I wouldn't object if there were some credible reason to assume that Hufford was an advocate rather than an unbiased academic, but the mere fact that he studies AltMed does not make him an advocate of AltMed: that's like saying anyone who studies homosexuality must be gay. it's a cheap move; stop it. --Ludwigs2 18:26, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
- It's still relevant to his opinions that his specialty is a study of AltMed, even if it were not the case that he's a proponent of AltMed. It's still a different, non-hard-science, POV. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 20:04, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
- uhhhh... what? there's such a mishmash of unfounded implications in that statement that I can't see how to straighten it out, and none of it bridges the fact that this is original research. --Ludwigs2 21:01, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
- It's not OR per se, it's a statement of fact. What I personally think is that it's ugly and I would rather see it cut back to the basics (ie/ he's a retired professor in an unrelated field) and a link to the "Meet the Staff". Let the readers review his CV and make up their own mind. FWIW, David Hufford isn't really that notable, but cramming his opinion about QW is just a reflection on little real critical opinion there is out there about QW, and how much is needed to appeal to authority, any authority (say a retired professor in a social science from a small university) really :-) Shot info (talk) 22:56, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
- uhhhh... what? there's such a mishmash of unfounded implications in that statement that I can't see how to straighten it out, and none of it bridges the fact that this is original research. --Ludwigs2 21:01, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
- Careful, Shot - if by some strange fluke I were to accept this logic, then the next thing I'd do would be to visit every page that uses Martin Gardner as a source for establishing Pseudoscience and remove the reference (because he's a science writer, without a university affiliation, with a degree in an unrelated field). this cuts both ways you know.
- but fortunately or not, I don't think the rules against original research dissolve just because you personally happen to think something is an established fact. get me a secondary reference, or I'm removing the comment entirely. --Ludwigs2 00:38, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- Ludwigs, you don't need permission from me to do whatever you want in Wikipedia. Your example of Gardner as an example is quite odd however. Because if you actually use "my logic" then the source is acceptable, more acceptable in fact. Not less. I think you are getting yourself somewhat confused over what it is we do here in Wikipedia with editing of articles and these things called self-evident facts from a source. If a source says "He is Blah in Location X" it is not OR to do this thing called editing and rewrite this as "Located in Location X, where he is a Blah, He.....". Likewise if there is an author who writes about science fiction. Guess what, that makes him a Science Fiction Author....even if the source says "He is an writer of novels in the science fiction genre". But getting back to the article (rather than twisting logic to justify edits in other articles), I think the inclusion of the phrase is not required. Perhaps that was missed in the confusion :-) Shot info (talk) 01:43, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- my apologies, Shot, I was venting about other unrelated miniscule slights and injuries. did I happen to mention I'm not (even close) to perfect? allow me to give myself a resounding yeeech. --Ludwigs2 04:19, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Neutrality tag
The article is currently tagged, saying that its neutrality is disputed. Could anyone who agrees with this, please list specific points of dispute, so that they can be addressed? Or if you disagree that the tag is appropriate, please state that too, so we can determine the consensus on how to handle it. Thanks, Elonka 15:58, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- And then can we make it into a list of things to do? Itsmejudith (talk) 16:05, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, exactly. That's how these "dispute" tags are supposed to work, is that the template is supposed to be a flag that there's a discussion going on at the talkpage about the specific points of dispute. The specific section can even be included in the template. If specific points of dispute cannot be defined though, then the template should be removed. For more information, see the docs at Template:POV. --Elonka 16:23, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- The sentence: The site "also provides links to hundreds of trusted health sites," is non-neutral. Trusted should be balanced with a qualifier, if it is to remain.
- The description of Quackwatch reviewer David Hufford, Ph.D. as, "a writer who generally supports viewing alternative medicine as just a different culture," is vague and weak; it is unsourced, and is transparently POV. Some editors have repeatedly removed the Ph.D. from his name. Petergkeyes (talk) 00:45, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- It might be your opinion or my opinion that the statement The site "also provides links to hundreds of trusted health sites," is non-neutral. However, it is not Wikipedia making this statement, but a direct quote (referenced) from a source. If the word trusted is not "balanced with a qualifier" in the source, then it would be POV for you or I, (Wikipedia in other words), to insert our opinions. I see too that someone has placed a opinion needs balancing tag after the entry about Bao-Anh Nguyen-Khoa's review of Quackwatch. Better still, make the entry accurate for a start. It says Bao-Anh Nguyen-Khoa "... felt the site might lack fair balance....". He said no such thing. He said Barrett "leaves one sensing a lack of fair balance". He specified Barrett, not Quackwatch. Kaiwhakahaere (talk) 02:15, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- K. you make an insightful and important point. The statement says absolutely nothing about Quackwatch, hardly anything about Barrett, but everything about the personal perceptions of the reader of Barrett's writings. It is a self-revealing statement about the feelings of Bao-Anh Nguyen-Khoa, which are no doubt replicated in thousands of altmed proponents who also read Barrett's and any other skeptic's writings. That's the nature of the beast and it really can't be any other way. As such it's just a rather "duh" and empty statement from a non-notable writer. It has no substance. Barrett has replied to such charges and openly admits that he is not trying to give equal time to all ideas. IOW he's not about to write as if he believes that undocumented fringe ideas he considers deceptive are equally valid as ideas from scientifically validated mainstream sources, and then just leave it up to often uninformed readers to make up their minds. That would be irresponsible, and it would be foolish to give promoters of quackery a soapbox. In some cases we don't even allow that here! He has a right to an opinion, and he expresses it. One can hardly blame him for that, and it's a perfectly legitimate way of writing. Those who "charge" him for doing so should look in their own mirror, since they are expressing their own undocumented opinions as if they were true, and they don't even have the evidence to back their quack claims, unlike Barrett who provides documentation for why the mainstream position is a better choice. -- Fyslee / talk 05:52, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- I seriously doubt this article will ever achieve a stable, neutral perspective. in just the short time I've been here, I've seen it get reasonably neutral two or three times, and then each time someone comes by and removes all of the critical perspectives so it's just a spank-the-monkey piece. at this point, I suggest we leave the template on there until the article has gone 9 months without a major edit; that will give some incentive towards creating a stable page. --Ludwigs2 01:31, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Weight in consultant pharmacist article
I got tired of seeing only negative comments cherry-picked from Nguyen-Khoa's article, so I wrote a properly weighted review. Future edits should be made to keep the characterization that is currently being described here. Do not put spin on the remarks, do not include only negatively construed comments, and make sure the fact that the reviewer himself is negatively disposed towards the alt. med. critics of Barrett comes through. Thanks. ScienceApologist (talk) 16:26, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- I already wrote a properly weighted review that did not do any of the things you mention. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:44, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- That's a huge amount of quotation; I'm not sure we should be giving that much weight to the minutiae of one doctor's review, and we certainly don't need verbatim four-line quotations. We should be able to summarise the article in a balanced way in a much smaller paragraph. --McGeddon (talk) 16:53, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- Right, I see what's happened. Ludwigs obtained the full text of the article and made a summary but said it was still too long. I then cut it down to the bare bones. Quackguru removed a phrase that I would argue was key to matching the balance of praise and criticism in the original. (The author does not give QW unqualified praise. If he had had to award a number of stars he would probably have given three out of five. Not four. But we can discuss that.) Then Jossi added a further mention of the same article in a different section. Then someone deleted my bit (altered by Guruji) as repetitive. Now we are warring about Jossi's version, which I would agree was slanted towards the negative. Without any reference to the work that was done so long ago (15 July). Elonka, can you help us to stop going round and round and to agree a consensus version on the talk page. Would RfC be useful at this point? Itsmejudith (talk) 16:58, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- (Edit conflict) McGeddon, would you like to look at the wording I put in on the 15th? Itsmejudith (talk) 16:58, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- ugh - our bit on the 'consultant pharmacist' review is almost as long as the frigging review! I'm going to go and cut it way back, because this is ridiculous. --Ludwigs2 19:21, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- Well I for one am happy with the result. Itsmejudith (talk) 20:18, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- ugh - our bit on the 'consultant pharmacist' review is almost as long as the frigging review! I'm going to go and cut it way back, because this is ridiculous. --Ludwigs2 19:21, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Violation of editing restrictions by Itsmejudith
In this edit, User:Itsmejudith violates the editing restrictions by reverting to a previous version which just said "historian". The added descriptor is important because Ernst is actually a historian of Indian medicine and its relation to the West. She is a supporter of alternative medicine and this fact is important for the readers. ScienceApologist (talk) 18:32, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- Didn't mean to violate the restrictions. I hadn't noticed it previously said "historian". We should be ultra-careful how we qualify academics. We can't try and discredit them by weasel wording. Don't forget, we are quoting here from a book published by Routledge so a genuine academic source. From its title its scope seems to be wider than SA implies, but I will try and look at some reviews. Also, an academic's work can't necessarily be described on the basis of one output. BTW surely Ernst is male. Itsmejudith (talk) 19:06, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- From Amazon, description and synopsis probably added by Routledge (NB one of the world's most respected scholarly publishers).
.Book DescriptionResearch into 'colonial' or 'imperial' medicine has made considerable progress in recent years, whilst the study of what is usually referred to as 'indigenous' or 'folk' medicine in colonized societies has received much less attention. This book redresses the balance by bringing together current critical research into medical pluralism during the last two centuries. It includes a rich selection of historical, anthropological and sociological case-studies that cover many different parts of the globe, ranging from New Zealand to Africa, China, South Asia, Europe and the USA. Synopsis The essays in this collection originate from the research symposium organized by the "Society for the Social History of Medicine" at the University of Southampton in 1998. They are concerned with the interaction between different medical approaches during the last two centuries. A variety of methodological approaches are used to challenge narrowly conceived boundaries between disciplines and methodologies.
- From Amazon, description and synopsis probably added by Routledge (NB one of the world's most respected scholarly publishers).
- Note that the book is by no means confined to "oriental" or Indian medicine. Can we find anything more mainstream in the history of medicine than this? Itsmejudith (talk) 19:29, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- And he is editor of the Sage journal History of Psychiatry. Now, where exactly is the problem with describing this scholar as "historian"? Itsmejudith (talk) 19:49, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- Note that the book is by no means confined to "oriental" or Indian medicine. Can we find anything more mainstream in the history of medicine than this? Itsmejudith (talk) 19:29, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Journal of the National Cancer Institute
This is not "referenced in scholarly journals" (or a journal, since I moved another citation to a journal to the "Reviews" section). It is a very brief mention of QW's viewpoint along with another "watchdog", in the news section of the journal, not in a refereed paper. I don't think it's a notable mention and would like permission to delete it. Itsmejudith (talk) 20:16, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- Judith, I'm not sure I understand you. I hope that you aren't raising the bar for inclusion to something above what is required for all articles here. We are mixing various reports, awards, commentaries, positive and negative mentions, etc., all in one section. That wasn't originally the case, but that's where we are now. Each mention stands on its own merits and is sourced. Proper attribution should take care of the rest, and that should be good enough. Now if this mention is in the wrong section, then let's find a better spot for it, rather than just deleting it. The section is important because it was specifically created to meet the demands by detractors for proof of the notability of the website, as a condition for even keeping the article here. (Yes, believe it or not, this article has survived AfD's! That's how far they have gone.) Any attempts to water this down contribute towards their goal of attacking a source that attacks their pet ideas. That's unwikipedian behavior and I'm sure you don't intend to unwittingly participate in such unworthy endeavors, which is why I'm sharing this history with you. -- Fyslee / talk 05:52, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks for sharing it Fyslee. Of course I don't want to raise the bar here above what is usual for articles. If people would like to look, my model for a contentious article is Bat Ye'or. There - after massive amounts of edit-warring - consensus has settled on some very notable positive mentions and some notable/scholarly negative ones. It is left to the reader to work out how much credit to attach to each. Please note that I don't think this topic ought to be anything like as contentious or that we are aiming for 50-50 positive-negative. If we are reflecting the balance "out there", then the result will be quite different from that on the Bat Ye'or page. There are more positive than negative references to QW, and those critiques that we do have are not written in anything like as scathing terms as those about that controversial writer. I'm also bearing in mind that conciseness is a virtue: QW is this, does that, this person for this purpose said this, that person writing in that context said that, a few more notable comments, notes, external links, see also, categories. No POV-pushing from any side. Itsmejudith (talk) 07:28, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Readability
This article reads like a turf war, folks. Almost every sentence is so contested, that the overall presentation reads even schizophrenically at times. When sentences cancel out each other, how can a reader even begin to understand the article in the first place? Understand that editors here are working under a lot of pressure, but readable copy for a encyclopedia is also crucial. I'm no grammar major, but I can read, and this article is best described as a working draft -- but it's on the front page. Can it be formatted to be read better at least while the finer points are duked out? FResearcher (talk) 02:19, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
- Thank you for your suggestion. When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Go ahead and be bold. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes — they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. --Elonka 02:22, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
- Elonka, due to this article being a No Man's Land of two main warring factions, and I a new face, it's best that I don't touch the article itself (and upset an editor who's worked on a section for months). I'm suggesting that existing editors to go back and proof read their work, so that as a working copy, any third party that comes to this page can make sense of the article. There's too many sentences that literally cancel each other's citation out. When two sides war over how to make a sausage and it's ingredients, often they forget that other folks will have to eat it. But what looks good on the production floor, doesn't for third parties who aren't into sausage making (and probably throw up at the sight of it!). This is a friendly "heads up", that between the duking out of sources, that the readability side shouldn't be regarded as what happens after the sausage is made itself. Those Googling sources will come by, and these third parties deserve fine sausages to eat, even if the sausage itself is a hot link with an extra side of Cayenne. FResearcher (talk) 13:08, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
- FResearcher - I actually agree with you. In fact, if you want to go through and make this a decent read I will support you to the best of my abilities. it will get you in some hot water, yes: various people - you'll see who - will try to attack you in the hopes of provoking an unreasoned response, all in an attempt to get you blocked. just ignore them, because it's mostly smoke - leave a note on my talk page about anything that worries you. politics on wikipedia is mostly stuck at the grammar school level (tease someone until they get mad, then rat them out to the teacher (errr.. admins) as though it's all their fault). it's sad, but there's not much you can do about it except learn the ropes, keep your cool, and keep at it. :-) --Ludwigs2 21:03, 28 July 2008 (UTC)