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Qajar
maybe something about, how the start of the qajar dynasty started the down fall of iran. maybe another revolution, with a proper governemtn could solve the problem.
The Qajar Dynasty
Good article but I made one little edit to the article. The Qajars were a Turkmen tribe that held ancestral lands in present-day Azerbaijan
I changed into: The Qajars were a Azeri tribe that held ancestral lands in present-day Azerbaijan
Because this way it would be easier to understand that it were the Azeris and not the Turkmen from other Turkic tribes.
Escaping Iran with substantial assets after '79
"After the last Revolution, many such Qajars absconded Iran with substantial money, often the result of kickbacks and bribes from governmental posts, and continue to enjoy the fruits of such wealth to this day."
From what I know, I don't belive this to be correct. If you do want to include it, get a good reference and prove it. If you can I wont remove it. However just putting information up on wikipedia (without proof) is't a good thing. It's better to stick to less info, but quality info rather than total rubish.
Furthermore, I know most of the article is not referenced, which is a shame. Maybe you can make a good example by leading the rest of us with a good reference?
The phrase Turkmen is incorrect and misleading when relating it to the ethnicity of the Qajar
The Qajar were Turks, i.e. Azerbaijani Turks, but not Turkmen. Maybe Turcoman, referring to Iranian Shiite Turkic tribes, would be more appropriate, but not Turkmen. Turkmen refers to the Turkmen of Turkmenistan, who had nothing to do with either Azerbaijani or Iranian rulers. Please do not put this word (Turkmen) in the article, because it is purely misleading. Bm79 16:42, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
- They did not descend from Ohguz Turks, however, they did speak a language of Oghuz origin. To say that they are of Oghuz origin is wrong, because, and this is the most obvious reason, they werent Mongoloid!Azerbaijani 21:23, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Ottomans During World War I?
With all due respect, I find it unlikely that Iran was jointly garrisoned/occupied during World War I by the Ottoman Empire, the Russian Empire, and the British... simply because the Ottomans were involved in combat against both of these powers, especially in the Arab Revolt. I would love to see some evidence of how this joint garrison worked, or of its existence. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by GWRunkleIV (talk • contribs) 23:57, 27 March 2007 (UTC).
Template
As per the Azerbaijani history template, its unnecessary. Are we then also going to add Armenia, Georgia, Turkmenistan, Afghanistan, etc... templates? In the Ottoman empire are we going to add Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Syria, Israel, etc... templates? It doesnt make sense and is unnecessary. Other than that, I made some corrections.Hajji Piruz 13:40, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
- Again Qajars have more relevance to Azerbaijan, as they spoke the same language and shared the same culture as the rest of what's now known as Azerbaijan. Both Ganja and Karabakh regions of Azerbaijan were governed by Ziyadoghlu Qajars, so it's absolutely relevant. Do not remove the template without proper discussion and consensus. I also added some references to Qajars from Iranica, etc. Atabek 18:01, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
- THis makes absolutely no sense at all. The Qajar dynasty is different than the early Qajars that ruled in the Caucasus, as they are their descendants. Also, I removed some repitition and made other corrections, such as wikilinking Turkmen to its proper article.Hajji Piruz 18:35, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
References
Hajji Piruz, please, provide references for your edits. Qajars were a Turkic dynasty without any doubt, there are tons of references on the subject. Atabek 18:34, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
- What did I do? The article clearly says they were Turkmens.Hajji Piruz 18:35, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
- Turkmens are original Oghuz Turks, I don't think we would have disagreement on that. But anyways, I am fine with your current revert of yourself. Atabek 18:44, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
- Thats only so that I can talk to you about this, because I know that if I didnt revert, someone else would appear to revert me, no use in fighting over it.
- Several things:
- a)Why did you wikilink Turkmen to Oghuz Turks, when there is an article about Turkmens already: Turkmens
- b)Why is the Turkmen stuff in the introduction when it should be in the backgrounds section.
- c)Why is anything Turkish linked to Oghuz Turks?Hajji Piruz 18:46, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
- Because Qajars were not quite the same Turkmen as known today (meaning from Turkmenistan). They lived in Anatolia for a long tme, and were also part of Shahsevan tribes in Safavid Iran. It's better to designate them in general as Turkic rather than Turkmen or Turkish, to avoid mixture with present-day countries. Moreover, they, just like Safavids, were Azerbaijani-speaking, and their power-base was Azerbaijan. Atabek 19:14, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
- But they were not Oghuz, they simply spoke a Turkic dialect. Like almost all Turks in the Middle East, they were simply speakers of Turkic dialects, not actually ethnic Turks. Saying they were Oghuz is highly incorrect. This is only your POV and OR.Hajji Piruz 19:21, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
- Actually the Turkic dialect spoken in modern Turkey, Azerbaijan, Iran, and Turkmenistan is Oghuz Turkic subfamily. It's different from Uzbek, Kazakh, and other non-Oghuz dialects of Turkic group. And I don't see why your reaction is so negative. Just like there are Persian peoples today, which are not quite the same as original Persians of Achaemenid era, there are also Turks/Turkmens/Turkomans/Azeri Turks, who are descendants of Oghuz Turkic tribes and adopted their language. What's wrong with this? I don't think the definition severes ties to Iran. Atabek 19:35, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
- Saying that the Qajars are Oghuz and saying that they speak an Oghuz Turkic dialect are two different things. Actually, there is almost no descendants of the Oghuz in Azeri populations, there is only a linguistic descent, thats it. Saying that the Qajars were Oghuz is pretty hysterical given all the evidence against it. They were Turkomans no doubt, but you Wikilinked it to the Oghuz.Hajji Piruz 00:26, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
- Hajji Piruz, saying Qajars were Oghuz Turkic, is the same as saying that Qajars were Turkic/Turkoman/Turkish tribe, which is what tons of references say without using "-speaking" extension. Qovanlu Qajars were part of Shahsevan tribes, which were Turkish from Anatolia. So as I said, you are welcome to make a choice between the above. I think saying Qajars were Turkic is NPOV, rather than using Turkish, Turkmen or Turkoman.
- Same with Achaemenids, we don't say they were Persian-speaking, we say they were Persian. Sassanids were also not Persian-speaking but just Persian. Atabek 00:55, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
- No its completely different. They were Turkomans, not Oghuz Turks, and they were not Turkic, they were Turkic speaking. Your example with the Sassanids and Persians is completely off.Hajji Piruz 13:27, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
- Hajji Piruz, I brought 6 references there that Qajars were Turkoman/Turkmen/Turks/Turkic. I can bring another 66. It's immaterial if the origin is referenced as Turkic, Turkish or Oghuz Turks, they mean the same thing in context of Qajars. Atabek 21:33, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Turkic vs Turkish vs Turkmen vs Turkoman
Various sources use any one of these definitions to identify Qajar tribe. So I think for the purposes of disassociating Qajars with Turkey or Turkmenistan, or with modern Turkomans in Iraq, the best is just to use Turkic. Please, provide your comments in this regard. Atabek 23:09, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Houshyar - revert warring
Do you even review what you're reverting? Atabek 23:21, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
- I have reverted changes back. Please do not remove sourced info without discussion on the talk page. I am not an expert in the matter but some of the removed info seems to be relevant Alex Bakharev 00:28, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you Alex. Meanwhile, I welcome everyone's participation in discussing the edits here. Atabek 00:37, 21 June 2007 (UTC)