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Scottywong (talk | contribs) →Requested move: someone should SNOW close this discussion immediately |
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**Thank you for so succintly saying what I was thinking. [[User Talk:Worm That Turned|<span style="text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.2em;"><font color="black">'''''Worm'''''</font></span>]] 15:50, 4 February 2011 (UTC) |
**Thank you for so succintly saying what I was thinking. [[User Talk:Worm That Turned|<span style="text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.2em;"><font color="black">'''''Worm'''''</font></span>]] 15:50, 4 February 2011 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' Why not rename it Anti-choice or Anti-death.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 16:06, 4 February 2011 (UTC) |
*'''Oppose''' Why not rename it Anti-choice or Anti-death.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 16:06, 4 February 2011 (UTC) |
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*Highly suggest that someone [[WP:SNOW]] close this immediately, and let everyone get back to doing something useful with their time. I'd do it myself but [[Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions#Non-admin closure]] suggests that I shouldn't. [[User:Snottywong|<span style="font:13px 'Copperplate Gothic Light';border:#AAAACC 1px inset;background-color:#DDE4C4;color=#DD0000">Snotty<font color="#25900D">Wong</font></span>]] <sup><small>[[User talk:Snottywong|babble]]</small></sup> 16:13, 4 February 2011 (UTC) |
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A ludicrous statement
The following statment is comlete nonsense and should be removed; "Some pro-choice advocates also point out that, while they too would prefer to see abortion not happen, making abortion illegal encourages women with unwanted pregnancies to seek Unsafe abortion, placing their own lives at risk." To follow this logic we should legalise theft, murder, rape and car theft because if it remains ilegal then people will only be encouraged to do it ilegally anyway. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.148.43.180 (talk) 07:28, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- The justification for having something in Wikipedia is for it to come from a reliable source that we can cite in the article. That statement has a reference but, while its name suggests that it is about this topic, doesn't seem to be at all. I'm wondering if something has got lost along the way. Of course, your view would need the same thing, a reliable source, for it to be added to the article. I happen to agree with the statement in the article. It is my personal view on the matter. I would love to find a better source for it. HiLo48 (talk) 09:47, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- I agree with the IP editor that the statement is illogical in a sense, and I agree with HiLo that either view needs to be backed by a verifiable and reliable source. I won't do it right now, but usual Wikipedia policy is to removed perceivably biased/controversial statements which aren't properly sourced. As you know, HiLo, my views are opposite of yours, but I'm not really gonna do anything about this. Invmog (talk) 18:36, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
- No-one could have views opposite mine, because mine are nowhere near the extreme. It's hard to be opposite the middle. But, back to the statement. What's there now doesn't seem to be properly referenced, but it describes a reality. Making abortion illegal doesn't stop it happening. It makes those wanting to have abortions seek less safe ways of having them. That doesn't have to be read as an argument for making it legal, although many would choose to do so. It is simply a description of something that happens. I'm sure that fact has been written up by people wiser than me, but I don't know where to look for such a source. Removing it from the article would not help the article (apart from obeying Wikipedia's rules in the short term). Finding a good source would. HiLo48 (talk) 20:27, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
The above comments are extraordinary. In the UK, this was the main reason why abortion was legalised in 1967. In most of the world (outside the US) it is a basic (and probably the strongest argument) for legalisation of abortion and it is very well-documented that it is so. A quick google of this subject reveals this UN WHO document for instance: 'Unsafe abortion: the preventable pandemic' http://www.who.int/reproductivehealth/publications/general/lancet_4.pdf. It states: "Increasing legal access to abortion is associated with improvement in sexual and reproductive health. Conversely, unsafe abortion and related mortality are both highest in countries with narrow grounds for legal abortion." I suspect that this may only be considered a "ludicrous" satement in the US. I checked the reference against the comment in the article and found a weird Zimbabwe source that doesn't appear to refer to abortion. Could someone who has editing rights replace it with eg, this WHO document. Thanks. DeCausa (talk) 10:14, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
- oh, thought the article is protected - will make the change myself. DeCausa (talk) 10:37, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
Pro-life movements in Europe
This comes from my talkpage, following my revert of an IP edit that I marked as "odd".
---
- The editor who made this edit is in Finland, which may explain why they would think of the UK as being "southern". This aside, I think he has a point: there's not much pro-life activism in northern Europe. Is there a way we could state this accurately? Dylan Flaherty (talk) 01:49, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
- That might be the source of the confusion, although I would personally never consider Germany Eastern Europe because I'm British. Do we have sources that say there isn't much going on in the Nordic countries? Or perhaps it's Catholic countries plus the UK? (There'll be stuff in Ireland too, I'm sure).VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 01:54, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
- It's not easy to source. The best I've come up with are articles that talk generalities, such as this one. Can you do better? Dylan Flaherty (talk) 05:00, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
- Here's one from 1996, which goes into some nice detail, although it would change what the article says. If you don't mind, I'll transfer this conversation to the Pro-life talkpage, so that other people can chip in.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 05:06, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
- It's not easy to source. The best I've come up with are articles that talk generalities, such as this one. Can you do better? Dylan Flaherty (talk) 05:00, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
- That might be the source of the confusion, although I would personally never consider Germany Eastern Europe because I'm British. Do we have sources that say there isn't much going on in the Nordic countries? Or perhaps it's Catholic countries plus the UK? (There'll be stuff in Ireland too, I'm sure).VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 01:54, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
- The editor who made this edit is in Finland, which may explain why they would think of the UK as being "southern". This aside, I think he has a point: there's not much pro-life activism in northern Europe. Is there a way we could state this accurately? Dylan Flaherty (talk) 01:49, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
---
I'll keep looking for sources, but if anyone else has some good stuff, please offer it up. The section on Europe is actually pretty thin, and would certainly be an interesting contrast with the American situation if it were filled out properly.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 05:10, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
- I think it's 'thin' for a good reason - it's not a hot issue in Europe (in comparison to US). I think (admittedly POV) that 'pro-life' is rather a fringe issue in most of the continent. I think there should be some comment along these lines in this section. DeCausa (talk) 11:31, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
Pro-birth revert
I reverted user:Toussaint's edit because it does not support the statement. The statement said that the name "Pro-choice" implies that opponents of abortion are "pro-birth". However, the source is someone arguing that a particular individual who is pro-life is in effect pro-birth, not that Pro-choice implies it. (In any case, the source is a local newspaper reporting on the views of a non-notable religious organisation which itself is actually pro-life, but believes that pro-life people must also support the creation of a better (i.e. pacifist) world for children.) VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 01:15, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
Changed by 72.240.91.65
I've felt compelled to revert a repeated change by this user, because I feel it biases the article. While I can certainly understand the motivations, articles on controversial topics represent a hard-fought consensus that cannot be ignored. Dylan Flaherty 20:25, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
- I'm the one who made said changes, and made them because the section on the debate seems incomplete and somewhat biased. The section is supposed to discuss the arguments on both sides, but it predominantly speaks of pro-choice arguments (including the controversial Roe effect, here without citing any references). I am also concerned about the wording of several sentences, e.g. "[T]he fetus is...preparing to subject her to a major medical/surgical trauma (childbirth)..." This sentence in particular is troubling because whether that was the author's intention or not, it suggests that the fetus is somehow attacking the mother. In short, I feel the article would greatly benefit by showing a wider range of arguments and showing less of a favor to one side. 72.240.91.65 (talk) 14:32, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
- One of the things I've learned about the abortion-related articles of Wikipedia is that each and every last one of them has been fought over like a disputed border between warlike third-world nations. Each line in the sand has a history and you don't just go upsetting it without getting a consensus from the people who etched it there with their blood. While I am not unsympathetic with the sorts of changes you'd like to make, you have absolutely no chance of making them if you just start editing. You need to gain a consensus behind you even before you edit, so that your changes will be accepted. This is what I do: I ask, I wait, and if what I hear doesn't sound supportive, I move on to something else. It's not as satisfying as just rewriting the article to fit my view, but then again, that's why it's not called DylanPedia. Please take a lesson from this. Dylan Flaherty 15:33, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
- Thank you for also being concerned about the neutrality of the article. My reasons for editing the article are above, and I feel changes are necessary to achieve a neutral point of view. After the first three paragraphs that mostly describe the different positions on the issue, there are three paragraphs that each contain a pro-choice argument (one of which makes no citations), but there are no corresponding pro-life arguments. It was mainly for this reason that I made my edits and later put up the POV flag. At any rate, we're discussing the proposed changes on the talk page now. What do you think: do you think any of my changes are appropriate? 72.240.91.65 (talk) 17:38, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
- I'm looking at this edit right now.
- I think "for any reason" may be redundant here. That's what "on-demand" means.
- I don't believe there's any doubt that abstinence, sex ed and contraception can all lower the number of unwanted pregnancies. The only debate is over to what extent each of these is effective and moral.
- The reason it says "a form of" is that it is not identical to infanticide, as a fetus is not technically an infant, although I would argue that it is morally equivalent.
- I don't think abortionfacts.com is a reliable source, except perhaps if narrowly taken as a statement of the pro-life view. Still, if we need that, we can find better sources.
- I'm not sure why "she has" is better than "there is". If anything, the latter suggests that it's a family decision.
- Removing the carefully neutral text about the Roe effect and replacing it with "claimed to" seems like obvious bias to me.
- No problem adding the sentence about what pro-life advocates feel, but using the phrase "mother and baby" to refer to a woman who does not wish to be pregnant and to the fetus she is trying to abort seems, well, obviously biased. Let's stick to medical terms, and then this change would be acceptable.
- The next sentence, about homocide, is highly problematic. The first link requires membership and the second is not a reliable source. Without a reliable source to stitch these two ideas together, it would be original research on our part to synthesize them.
- The last change is also problematic, as the "counter-argument" seems to be irrelevant. It may well be that legalizing abortion makes it more common, but that does not counter the likely true claim that pro-choicers would rather that fewer women have abortions. Their basic argument is that they want to reduce abortions by addressing the demand side, not the supply side. Likewise, whether the specific number of maternal deaths from unsafe abortions before legalization was accurately stated has no bearing; it's just a cheap shot.
- I'm sorry to have to tell you that most of these changes do not seem to have much of a chance of gaining consensus. Dylan Flaherty 18:58, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
- I'm looking at this edit right now.
- Thank you for also being concerned about the neutrality of the article. My reasons for editing the article are above, and I feel changes are necessary to achieve a neutral point of view. After the first three paragraphs that mostly describe the different positions on the issue, there are three paragraphs that each contain a pro-choice argument (one of which makes no citations), but there are no corresponding pro-life arguments. It was mainly for this reason that I made my edits and later put up the POV flag. At any rate, we're discussing the proposed changes on the talk page now. What do you think: do you think any of my changes are appropriate? 72.240.91.65 (talk) 17:38, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
Pro-life legislation
Is it consistent with NPOV to describe a non-person, such as a law, as "pro-life"? I argue that, because it is not a question of self-identification, we must use neutral terms for the legislation and prefer description of the legislation's effect to political euphemisms; in this I am supported by Andy Walsh, Kansan, and VsevolodKrolikov. Schrandit and John J. Bulten argue that because a law's supporters describe it as "pro-life," so too should we.
I urge anyone interested in commenting to read all previous discussion, beginning at my talk page, continuing to Talk:Political_positions_of_Ron_Paul#Abortion_stance_wording, and ending up at Talk:Pro-life#Pro-life_legislation.
(Note that the same question applies to the phrase "pro-choice legislation.")
Roscelese (talk) 07:30, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
There seems to be an edit war over whether his position on legalized abortion should be described as "anti-abortion" or "pro-life". I cannot find any overall Wikipedia consensus on the term that should be used; I do note that in the actual Abortion article, "pro-life" seems to be used more ("anti-abortion" tends to be used in the context of things such as the violent fringe of the movement). Having said that, I also know that the Associated Press Styleguide recommends the use of "anti-abortion", so there are good arguments that could be made on both sides. Regardless, an attempt should be made to discuss the issue here rather than edit warring. Kansan (talk) 14:36, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
- To sum up my position as laid out on my talk page: We accept "pro-life" and "pro-choice" as descriptors for people, because they are self-identifications; unlike other editors in this discussion, I do not go about editing descriptions of people to put in buzzwords I like. However, laws are not people, and cannot self-identify, so we have to treat them as we'd treat anything else and describe them in non-biased language. This can take the form of using a neutral descriptor - "X supports anti-abortion legislation" - attributing the biased descriptor - "X supports legislation he describes as pro-life" - or suppressing the descriptor entirely - "X supports laws which would define a fertilized egg as a legal person." However, the latter two aren't really appropriate for a heading, so I think in this particular case we're obliged to use the neutral text.
- Dictionary usage moreover is against applying "pro-life" to non-people/groups. (Interestingly, the OED accepts "pro-choice" as a word one can use to describe a law, but I think it's best to keep the policy equal.) I used OED, Merriam-Webster, and American Heritage.
- I've been changing these because WP:NPOV is the standard we should be striving for. The self-identification rule allows for balance if not real neutrality, and while one might disagree, it's at least consensus. "X is pro-life" sort of implies "X describes himself as pro-life." If, on the other hand, you start letting biased text through in non-SI cases, NPOV is gutted. "This law is pro-life" - well, it certainly doesn't believe that abortion is wrong itself, because it hasn't a brain. Who has described it as pro-life? And why are we only listening to them instead of people who have described the law as anti-choice? Better to go with neutral text. Roscelese (talk) 14:51, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
- As a previously uninvolved editor to the discussion, I do tend to agree with the arguments presented, most of all because buzzwords such as "pro-life" assume a familiarity with current political terminology/buzzwords, whereas the term "anti-abortion" succinctly describes the position. The usage of the term "pro-life" for people is as much of a courtesy to allow people to go by self-defined terms (and, on the same token, we would prefer "abortion rights legislation" to "pro-choice".) On the balance, I support usage of "anti-abortion". Kansan (talk) 14:57, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
- Addendum: Thanks to the vicissitudes of the pro-life movement, I can anticipate some surreal sentences coming up once we try to use "pro-life" as a neutral descriptor - "X supported pro-life legislation like [thing], which would reduce unplanned pregnancies. Pro-life groups opposed the law..." But that hasn't been an issue so far, and thus isn't a cornerstone of my argument. Roscelese (talk) 15:16, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
- Political positions of Ron Paul is the wrong article for this discussion; copying it to Talk:Pro-life#Pro-life legislation, as previously proposed on R's talk. R made this same change in perhaps
5020 articles, so while the Ron Paul watchers should be free to comment there, it really needs the pro-life article watchers. JJB 20:20, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
- Political positions of Ron Paul is the wrong article for this discussion; copying it to Talk:Pro-life#Pro-life legislation, as previously proposed on R's talk. R made this same change in perhaps
- Begin new comments below.
I too consult many dictionaries, and without detailing at this time, it is clear that R's many edits and reversions are fighting a personal bete noire of what she considers POV phrasing, as her user page says. There is no appreciable difference between "pro-life" and "anti-abortion", with or without hyphens, that prohibits one from being used for legislation and allows the other, or that makes one more neutral than the other. If anything there is a sense of "anti-abortion" that restricts it effectively to "anti-induced-abortion", making it the wrong word due to that ambiguity, which "pro-life" does not have. "Pro-life legislation" passes the Google test with flying colors. The fact that R marked all these revisions as minor (for which she has apologized), and that no discussion was originally initiated anywhere, indicates a misunderstanding of process as well. (I would certainly appreciate R's links to WP guidance on self-identification, because I broadly support self-ID and have not found it covered sufficiently in policy to my taste.) About 5 editors have objected or reverted these edits, so there is no consensus for them at this time. I would appreciate below the views of regulars to this article (as well as the Ron Paul position article where this discussion was first posted) as to whether the phrase "pro-life legislation" should be verboten on WP. JJB 20:20, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
- You seem to have a persistent problem with counting, JJB. My edits (in under 20 articles) have been reverted by three people, one of whom is yourself, one of whom has an extremely clear agenda (as I pointed out, if you think "pro-abortion" and "anti-abortion" are of equivalent neutrality, you cannot be trusted to give an unbiased perspective on this issue), and one of whom hasn't yet commented in this discussion.
- it is clear that R's many edits and reversions are fighting a personal bete noire of what she considers POV phrasing, as her user page says - because God forbid anyone should have the goal of making an encyclopedia neutral. The horror!
- Funny how most hits for "pro-life legislation" are from self-described pro-life activists. They couldn't possibly have a reason to describe the legislation in non-neutral terms. I'll also refer you to WP:GOOGLE and point out that if you're going to insist on relying on that, "homophobic legislation" (fex) gets plenty of hits and is another thing one isn't allowed to say on Wikipedia because of NPOV. From a purely pedantic perspective, hey, "Alas, poor Yorick, I knew him well" gets loads of hits too.
- There is no appreciable difference between "pro-life" and "anti-abortion", with or without hyphens, that prohibits one from being used for legislation and allows the other, or that makes one more neutral than the other - really? You don't understand that "pro-life" is a term created to paint the movement in a positive light (because who isn't in favor of life?) while "anti-abortion" is both specific and non-euphemistic?
- As for self-ID, I don't think it's in the MoS per se but it's certainly been a recurring issue at talk:pro-life. Roscelese (talk) 21:10, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
Without answering the formal fallacies from your arguments, it remains to demonstrate the dictionary usage at hand. Yes, I would take you up on your offer to quote the OED.
- New International (3rd unabridged): neither word present, due to date.
- Merriam-Webster (10th): "antiabortion ... (1971): opposed to abortion"; "pro-life ... (1961): ANTIABORTION".
- New World (3rd): "antiabortion ... opposed to induced abortions and to their legalization"; "pro-life ... opposing the right to obtain a legal abortion".
- American Heritage (3rd): "antiabortion ... Opposed to abortion: the antiabortion movement." "pro-life ... Advocating full legal protection of human embryos or fetuses, especially by opposing legalized abortion."
Every dictionary has one simple definition for each word. Clearly, MW, in addition to noting that the first citation of "pro-life" is 10 years older than the first of "antiabortion", has decided to finesse the issue by regarding them as straight synonyms, so there is no advantage there to choosing one over the other generally; individual editor clusters should decide at each article, rather than my hunting down and shooting the phrase "anti-abortion legislation" or "laws" in 20 articles without discussion. Further, WNW and AH clearly give "antiabortion" a narrower scope than "pro-life", WNW limiting antiabortion to induced abortion, and AH expanding pro-life to all embryo/fetus protection; thus we could also, if we were minded, make a good argument for using "pro-life" in all cases, being the older word and the more generic and less ambiguous word. Your idea that some source permits your WP:OR rule that legislation is never pro-life is not borne out, as every definition refers to opposition to abortion, and opposition can be attributed to laws as well as people, or else you could not call the laws antiabortion by any of these sources. You then discount your outlier evidence, namely that OED uses "pro-choice" as describing laws, which is an appeal to yourself when you don't like the source, on your rationale that "I think it's best to keep the policy equal." Equality is disputed. One side focused on the words "proabortion" (1972) and "antilife" (1929) as proposed equality-keeping antonyms of "pro-life" (1961), the other side focused on the word "antiabortion" (1971) as a proposed equality-keeping synonym and "pro-choice" (1975) as a proposed antonym. But all these words have different nuances and usages, so equality is a nonstarter argument because the different camps just go on using different words. In short, to make such a sweeping change you would need a broad consensus at this article first, just as I would need if I decided to make a sweeping change in the other direction. (Incidentally, I co-led a social club with a NARAL director for a year, and, in the Ron Paul Revolution, I and a self-ID'd pro-choice Paulite told the media that Paul brings unity on even this issue, which means he's doing a better job on carrying out WP's mission of consensus than WP is today.) JJB 22:00, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
- It's lovely that you have a "pro-choice" friend, but I'm afraid that isn't at all relevant - your anecdote about Ron Paul supposedly bringing unity would be undue and OR if you tried to edit based on it.
- As for your position, I'm still skeptical about the grammatical point, but that's really a subset of the neutrality point, which your paragraph on synonyms and antonyms still fails to address. I've explained at length why the statement "this law is pro-life" is biased, because it privileges the opinions of "pro-lifers" over "pro-choicers" in a non-SI case; have you anything to say? Roscelese (talk) 22:22, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
We have used pro-choice and pro-life as far back as I remember, just like we use self-ID on all the political issues I can think of. I can think of no decent reason to change. While I could appreciate a move to pro-abortion/anti-abortion I see how that would get very sticky very fast, I say we we stay with pro-choice/pro-life as descriptors. - Schrandit (talk) 23:47, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
- It's disappointing when one uses levity to lighten the mood of a challenging discussion and one is mistaken for someone who wants to insert OR into an article (which would be COI too as per my userpage). Anyway, the only "privilege" I see is that more laws are pro-life than pro-choice, primarily because the Supreme Court holds that the Constitution is pro-choice, and so that camp holds the "turf" and the other camp ends up with more textual citations. That's not a privilege of certain opinions any more than the pro-choice designation of the status quo of the Constitution is a privilege. It's just "facts on the ground". But looky there, Google has 223,000 hits for "pro-choice legislation" also, and what a coincidence that the leaders are NARAL, prochoiceny.org, and Wikipedia on FOCA. So you seem to be well-represented; this is hardly a "privilege" of some opinions over others. Are you saying it would be more neutral for pro-lifers to get to name legislation they oppose (proabortion), and pro-choicers to name legislation they oppose (antiabortion)? The bete noire is still the explanation I'm going with. JJB 02:30, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
- No, dude, I'm saying it would be more neutral to avoid political euphemisms in ostensibly neutral prose. (And let me again refer you to WP:GOOGLE.) As for "pro-choice legislation," I've no problem with rephrasing that in a neutral form as long as the same standard is consistently applied. (Ie. no "pro-life legislation" and "legislation which would expand abortion access," that isn't balanced.) Like other editors, I have only a limited amount of time and energy so I may not devote equal amounts of the same to removing instances of "pro-choice legislation," but I'm not insisting on a standard that favors one position over another (unlike the ridiculous "pro-abortion"/"anti-abortion" proposal).
- Queries:
- 1. Do you have a problem with the phrase "Ron Paul supports legislation which would do [thing]" - sans descriptor? That's my preferred phrasing for in-paragraph discussion. If you don't have a problem, proceed to question 2. (If you do have a problem, ask yourself if it is consistent with NPOV to pepper articles with gratuitous instances of a non-neutral phrase.)
- 2. Since that kind of phrasing isn't possible in a header, would "Abortion-related legislation" or something similar be a suitable replacement for all headers that currently say "Pro-life legislation" and "Pro-choice legislation"? Then the paragraph would elaborate. Roscelese (talk) 05:41, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
- Do I really need to say it again? I'm not the one who's changing descriptions of people. While I would prefer neutral (rather than merely balanced - of course, "pro-abortion" is neither, unless you'd really like to rename this article "anti-choice") terminology, I recognize that describing people/movements as "pro-life" and "pro-choice" is consensus, and I have always let it stand. However, this is not an issue of self-identification, because as far as I can tell, none of these laws identify themselves (are you using some other arcane definition of "self-identify" that doesn't mean "identify themselves"?) as "pro-life."
- If you're referring specifically to how we describe laws and are just using "self-ID" as a smokescreen, remember that there is, actually, no consensus - that's why we're having this discussion - and also read what I wrote to you on my talk page about how no, we don't actually always take proponents' word for it. Roscelese (talk) 05:41, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
- I agree entirely with Roscelese. The best choice between two loaded descriptors in this case is - neither. "Abortion-related legislation" / "Legisation on abortion" and "...supports a law that would..." There's simply no need to get tied up in the issue. VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 08:59, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
- While that would be acceptable in some cases, it should not create a requirement to delete the objected phrasing everywhere. Sometimes the shorter phrase is clearer (re R's query 1). As American Heritage makes clear, sometimes "pro-life" conveys a nuance that "antiabortion" does not (laws banning embryonic stem cell research and mandating parental notification for abortions are not antiabortion per se, but are pro-life). And sometimes (as in the cases where R has been reverted), the reliable sourcing for "pro-life" (or "pro-choice") is just overwhelming. Thus there is no need for a taboo; current harmonious editing interaction, case-by-case, is sufficient. JJB 16:32, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
- I specifically said "in this case". Sometimes it's appropriate to use "pro-life", but it's not required in the Ron Paul article (with the exception of his explicit self-description) . You need to explain why a neutral editor would object to the formulations I put above.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 16:48, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
- You speak vaguely. For as long as I can remember we've had a compromise between pro-choice/pro-life. Roscelese has attempted to substitute the term pro-life with language she finds more neutral and descriptive. Her precise wording has met with near universal objection on the grounds that what she perceives as neutral wording others find less than neutral. I don't know how, exactly, you would go about changing the descriptions on abortion related articles (of which, there are at least tens of thousands) so you will understand my supreme hesitation. - Schrandit (talk) 20:35, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
- For as long as I can remember we've had a compromise between pro-choice/pro-life. - Go ahead and prove it then. The whole reason this discussion is happening is because there is no consensus on how to describe laws. (Check out that "near universal objection," too - you and JJB against me, Laser brain, Vsevolod, and Kansan. Maybe a little review of math would help here: 2 < 4. Even if you count ClovisPt, who hasn't joined the discussion, as being on your side, you're still outnumbered - hell, even if you weren't outnumbered that's hardly a "near universal" objection!)
- I don't know how, exactly, you would go about changing the descriptions on abortion related articles (of which, there are at least tens of thousands) so you will understand my supreme hesitation. - Don't you worry your pretty little head about that. Not a lot of articles actually use the objectionable phrase, so it'll be quite simple, and of course, no one's making you do it. Roscelese (talk) 21:09, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
- You speak vaguely. For as long as I can remember we've had a compromise between pro-choice/pro-life. Roscelese has attempted to substitute the term pro-life with language she finds more neutral and descriptive. Her precise wording has met with near universal objection on the grounds that what she perceives as neutral wording others find less than neutral. I don't know how, exactly, you would go about changing the descriptions on abortion related articles (of which, there are at least tens of thousands) so you will understand my supreme hesitation. - Schrandit (talk) 20:35, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
- I don't really have a problem with adding a few extra words (ie. "pro-life legislation" to "legislation which would restrict abortions and ban embryonic stem cell research") in the interest of neutrality. Not only is it more neutral, it also provides more information! Right now, a reader can't necessarily know whether a politician who sponsors "pro-life legislation" is active only on the abortion issue or also in embryonic stem cell research, physician-assisted suicide, etc. (Parental notification laws are anti-abortion, though, so no luck there.)
- the reliable sourcing for "pro-life" (or "pro-choice") is just overwhelming - Such as? NYT doesn't use "pro-life law/legislation" at all (the only hit is from an op-ed), BBC doesn't use it at all, AP doesn't use it at all, Guardian doesn't use it at all, the notably conservative Telegraph doesn't use it at all, Time appears to have used it only once, it isn't used any more often than "anti-abortion legislation" in WSJ, Fox News uses almost always "anti-abortion law/legislation," and uses of it in Newsweek outnumber uses of "anti-abortion legislation/law" only by one. Where is this overwhelming consensus you're talking about? Roscelese (talk) 21:09, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
- Come here to have a civilized conversation or stay at home.
- WP goes with self-ID, yes, even with laws right now, that's why you had to run around trying to change all these articles.
- Over 30,000 articles use the two phrases (I didn't even look for the stray anti-abortion/pro-abortion) so you will forgive my "pretty little head" for its worries. I'd like to know what, exactly, you plan on substituting them with.
- "Parental notification laws are anti-abortion, though, so no luck there." There are another half dozen ways those laws could also be described. The issue is not nearly as simple as you make it out to be. - Schrandit (talk) 21:27, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
- WP goes with self-ID, yes, even with laws right now, that's why you had to run around trying to change all these articles. - Which is, of course, why "anti-abortion law/legislation" gets more hits than "pro-life," even ignoring my recent edits. That really proves your point!
- Over 30,000 articles use the two phrases - LOL yes, over 30,000 articles use "pro-life law/legislation."
- ^ Remember that suggestion I made about math?
- I'd like to know what, exactly, you plan on substituting them with. - Then I suggest you read all the comments I've been making, in which I've explained that very thing a number of times.
- Debate it if you like, but there's no way in which the laws are "pro-life" other than the way in which they're anti-abortion. Embryonic stem cell research and physician-assisted suicide are often grouped under the same heading, but parental consent/notification can't possibly be argued to promote "life" other than by restricting abortion access. Roscelese (talk) 22:14, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
- I specifically said "in this case". Sometimes it's appropriate to use "pro-life", but it's not required in the Ron Paul article (with the exception of his explicit self-description) . You need to explain why a neutral editor would object to the formulations I put above.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 16:48, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
- While that would be acceptable in some cases, it should not create a requirement to delete the objected phrasing everywhere. Sometimes the shorter phrase is clearer (re R's query 1). As American Heritage makes clear, sometimes "pro-life" conveys a nuance that "antiabortion" does not (laws banning embryonic stem cell research and mandating parental notification for abortions are not antiabortion per se, but are pro-life). And sometimes (as in the cases where R has been reverted), the reliable sourcing for "pro-life" (or "pro-choice") is just overwhelming. Thus there is no need for a taboo; current harmonious editing interaction, case-by-case, is sufficient. JJB 16:32, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
- I agree entirely with Roscelese. The best choice between two loaded descriptors in this case is - neither. "Abortion-related legislation" / "Legisation on abortion" and "...supports a law that would..." There's simply no need to get tied up in the issue. VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 08:59, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
<R, you say, "There's no way in which the laws are 'pro-life' other than the way in which they're anti-abortion," which logically entails that "antiabortion" has some broader way of use than "pro-life"; but the dictionaries above, the experts on word use, all disagree with you, as does the OED implication you cite. Wikipedia is not a site for unilateral language taboos as you seem to favor. You are to be thanked for not continuing the crusade in the light of the nonconsensus, of course. Maybe you can find a reliable source taking your novel view that "pro-life law" is some kind of contradiction in terms. JJB 22:55, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
- When I say "There's no way in which the laws are 'pro-life' other than the way in which they're anti-abortion," I'm referring to the above discussion on whether or not "pro-life legislation" can be used to describe laws against embryonic stem cell research and physician-assisted suicide, as I explained above. (I do not think that is appropriate usage either.) Parental notification laws don't prevent suicide or the destruction of lab embryos. All they do is restrict abortion. (Putting aside proponents' tendency to describe them as "protecting parental rights" or whatnot, that's not at issue here.)
- Maybe you can find a reliable source taking your novel view that "pro-life law" is some kind of contradiction in terms. - I? Why don't you find a reliable source that consistently uses that phrase in preference to "anti-abortion"? I've already discussed, at length, how my position is based on Wikipedia's NPOV principles.
- If you want to see for yourself, why don't you try editing something like Nuremberg Laws to say that they protected German blood and German honor? That's how one proponent described them - indeed (since they have a title) how they self-described! - and we know the way in which proponents describe them is always right. Roscelese (talk) 23:35, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
Easy there, Godwin. You say "Parental notification laws don't prevent suicide or the destruction of lab embryos. All they do is restrict abortion." Who says all they do is restrict abortion? Again, I can think of half a dozen ways to accurately describe such laws. Why must we be boxed in to describing them the way you see them? - Schrandit (talk) 23:39, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
- All right, shoot. How are parental notification laws "pro-life" other than by restricting abortion access? Roscelese (talk) 23:50, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
That's not what I said. I said they do more than restrict abortion. - Schrandit (talk) 23:54, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
- And as I've been saying the whole time, that's not what's at issue here. JJB said above, "laws...mandating parental notification for abortions are not antiabortion per se, but are pro-life." I've been explaining that that position makes no sense. Roscelese (talk) 00:03, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
Parental notification laws are about many things. Why must we be cornered into only describing them, and the sentiment behind them, as you wish? - Schrandit (talk) 00:08, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not even addressing whatever else you want to call them. JJB said above, "laws...mandating parental notification for abortions are not antiabortion per se, but are pro-life." I've been explaining that that position makes no sense. Roscelese (talk) 03:10, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
Your contention that we should neglect description save that which you favor makes less sense. - Schrandit (talk) 03:31, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- LOL, yes, I'm totally saying we should neglect description. That's why I've been continually advocating for providing a description of the laws in question rather than just saying "pro-life" and leaving - that really reflects a desire to neglect description. Roscelese (talk) 03:36, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
random break
Woah. You lot are really going off on one. If I understand this discussion correctly, you want to use it to decide the use of the terms "pro-life" and "anti-abortion" across all pages? Wow. A tad ambitious. Frankly, I think you should not have brought this discussion here, because it's not about the Pro-life movement per se. Schandit considers my suggestion "vague", which I find puzzling. I'll try to make it clearer how I think the other article (you know, the one with its own talkpage) should be.
- The section title should be either "Legislation on abortion" or "Abortion-related legislation".
- The quoted self-descriptor is entirely appropriate.
- In the text, one can write "Paul argued that his
pro-lifeposition was consistent with his libertarian values". (Obviously not actually with the strikeout, that's just to illustrate what I would remove. His "position" is quite clear from the text.) - There is simply no need to label opposition to stem cell research either "pro-life" or "anti-abortion". It adds nothing to the text but POV and produces reams of circular talkpage clutter.
I fail to see how a neutral editor would find a problem with this version. Now, unless there are any other of the regular editors of this page out there willing to give their advice on how another particular page might handle the issue (not how the whole encyclopedia should), I humbly suggest you repair to talk:Political positions of Ron Paul to continue your discussion.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 04:00, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- Oh, I think it's a useful conversation to have. This started because I replaced "pro-life legislation" with "anti-abortion legislation" across a number of pages, and I think finding some kind of standard is a good idea. I've actually thinking of putting in an RfC though, because apparently being actually outnumbered is not enough to make certain editors stop claiming they have an overwhelming consensus in their favor - do you think that would help?
- Also, there does exist a tag for random break, but I can't remember what it is, sorry. Roscelese (talk) 04:07, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- In that case, my recommendation is to avoid conflict and POV by avoiding either term where possible. (In the Ron Paul article it seems eminently possible, and I suspect it is elsewhere too). The current discussion seems not to appreciate that "pro-life" and "anti-abortion" are part of a bigger debate that includes the pair "pro-choice" and "pro-abortion". (pro-abortion is generally deemed quite offensive by "pro-choice" people; anti-abortion sounds negative, and pro-choice and pro-life are apple pie phrases) All four terms are not very NPOV. I think that an RFC is a better idea than randomly selecting one of the talkpages in the area to carry on a dispute.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 04:28, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
TLDR
Basically, labels like "pro-life" should be attributed (one person's "pro-life" is another's "anti-abortion", and so forth). So, "org X says that law Y is pro-life" is fine. Tijfo098 (talk) 06:52, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- In this case, it's not attributed, so both "pro-life" and "anti-abortion" should be avoided in favour of the non-controversial phrase "abortion legislation".VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 07:12, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- In some of the articles where I changed "pro-life legislation" to "anti-abortion legislation," it wasn't clear from the article what specific policies were being referred to (and presumably it would be a good idea to somehow indicate what side the person is on). What would you advise in that situation? "Anti-abortion" with a [clarification needed] tag? Roscelese (talk) 20:28, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- I don't know if we should make "pro-life" into "anti-abortion" just as a rule-of-thumb for the same reasons that people would object if we changed all references of people being "pro-choice" to "pro-death." Pro-lifers claim it's about life; pro-choicers claim it's about choice.
- By the same merit, if we changed all of the above-mentioned phrases to "abortion legislation" as to use a 'non-controversial phrase,' then some might argue that "life legislation' (or the termination thereof) could/should also be used. I could be be wrong; just a thought. Invmog (talk) 02:26, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
- Er, okay, maybe you didn't read the discussion, but:
- 1. We're not discussing changing references to people being "pro-life" or "pro-choice." The statement "X is pro-life" sort of implies "X identifies as pro-life." But "This legislation is pro-life" means that someone has described it as "pro-life." Someone has probably described it as "anti-choice" too - why do we put one and not the other in our text, since it's not a question of implied self-identification?
- 2. There is absolutely no equivalency between "anti-abortion" and "pro-death." Period.
- Anyway - "life legislation" is still a non-neutral phrase, because a lot of "pro-choice" people would probably disagree that it was about life. Whereas I doubt that a supporter of "pro-life" legislation would flatly deny that it was about abortion! Roscelese (talk) 02:35, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
- Er, okay, maybe you didn't read the discussion, but:
There has been a breakdown in communications on this article, resulting in removal of well-cited material, tendentious editing and unlikely claims about consensus. Outside assistance would be helpful. Dylan Flaherty 04:20, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
Legal and Political Aspects
The following suggested edit in this sentence has been challenged and reverted: "However, following Stupak's vote in favor of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, pro-life organizations accused Stupak of having betrayed the pro-life movement,[1][2][3][4][5][6] and the SBA List revoked a pro-life award it had planned to give to him.[7]"
This sentence is well-cited, balanced, and highly relevant to the rest of the section. The section lists Bart Stupak as a leading pro-life Democrat in the United States. Following the health care reform controversy, it is fair to say that Mr. Stupak's pro-life credentials are not deemed to be in good standing by some in the pro-life community. The article should reflect that. Thoughts?184.74.22.161 (talk) 06:58, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
- I'm hardly the first person to object to this, so let's see what the previous stated reasons were.
- "(Reverting to balanced statement about Stupak and the award he was not given, not Dannenfelser's global redefinition about who cannot be pro-life.)"
- "(rv too much emphasis given Dannenfelser, per WP:COATRACK)"
- Have to admit he has a point, eh? Dylan Flaherty 07:05, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
- Given that Dannenfelser's name is not even mentioned in the disputed sentence, I most certainly do not believe that the other editor has a point. What's the problem?184.74.22.161 (talk) 07:09, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
- No responses for a week, and the objection to the sentence doesn't make very much sense. I am re-inserting it.184.74.22.161 (talk) 18:16, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
bioethical utlitarianism
Hi everyone,
A recent edit brought me to the sentence:
- The contemporary pro-life movement is typically, but not exclusively, influenced by Conservative Christian values, especially in the United States, and has influenced certain strains of bioethical utilitarianism.<ref>Holland, S. (2003). Bioethics: a Philosophical Introduction Cambridge, UK : Polity Press; New York : Distributed in the USA by Blackwell Pub.</ref>
What is bioethical utilitarianism? What forms of bioethical utilitarianism have been influenced by Conservative Christian values?
The words, "bioethical utilitarianism", were added in August 22, 2006:
- This perspective is historically deriven from Judeo-Christian ideology and its influenced forms of bioethical utlitarianisms. <ref>Holland, S (2003) Bioethics: a Philosophical IntroductionCambridge, UK : Polity Press ; New York : Distributed in the USA by Blackwell Pub</ref>
Can someone with a copy of Bioethics: a Philosophical Introduction verify this?
I read the exerpt of the book thoughtfully supplied by Amazon.com:
- page 206-207
- [A] 'consequentialist' is someone who thinks that consequences alone determine morality. ... Utilitarianism, the main version of consequentialism, says that good consequences are ones that maximize happiness, whilst bad consequences fail to maximize happiness. ... Utilitarianism is an intuitively appealing line of thought. It pervades our liberal, secular culture.
(Note that the author is writing in the UK. I suggest that "liberal culture" he is talking about is classical liberalism rather than modern liberalism in the United States.)
It sounds like utilitarianism conflicts with Conservative Christian values.
--Kevinkor2 (talk) 11:45, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
- While Christianity is probably worth mentioning in the overview (though I could see a reasonable opposing argument) that sentence is vague and not terribly informative. Is bioethical utilitarianism a common defined term? I imagine my definition of it could very from another man's. Outside of a quote from that book I think that sentence has been mashed with others to the point of being less than accurate at the moment. - Haymaker (talk) 12:04, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
Requested move
Pro-life → Anti-abortion — The name Pro-life is what they call themselves, however, for our international audience such as what we have on Wikipedia, a more precise term would probably be more appropriate. Anti-abortion is also the word often used by neutral sources in describing organizations that call themselves "pro-life" [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] There are plenty more, it is clear that news writers approaching this from a neutral point of view use anti-abortion as their term of choice because of its preciseness rather than the more vague term "pro-life." By calling this article "pro-life" wikipedia is inherently promoting these anti-abortion organization's viewpoint. Also, there are clearly those that see abortions as being "pro-life." [6] This term, in its current usage on the site, is clearly used primarily to promote the view that abortions should be banned in all circumstances, and as such, has no place in a neutral encyclopedia. As nominator, I SUPPORT this move. -WikiManOne 20:36, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
- We've been through this debate already, and I doubt consensus has changed since then. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 20:41, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
- All commenters should read #Rename, move back to pro-life above (referring to an out-of-process move), as R's comment suggests. JJB 23:52, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
- Also, unless it's a fringe theory, nominator's link to AbortionIsProLife dotcom should be mentioned as one POV on any page called "pro-life", and that actually argues against nominator. JJB 04:23, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Support, I think its pretty fair to say that Anti-abortion is more neutral and that pro-life is a loaded term. Though it seems that Pro Life at 3 million has a fair number more Google hits than Anti abortion which has 800k I think anti-abortion is well enough used that going for the more neutral term is better. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:48, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose, while I'd be fine with switching pro-life/pro-choice to anti-abortion/pro-abortion I think we're better off sticking with self-identification. - Haymaker (talk) 21:10, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
- You're missing an important point: pro-choice is accurate in that people/organizations that consider themselves pro-choice are just that, they support the choice in various issues. They do not push abortions, they push the choice to have an abortion, or to keep it, or to use proper birth control, etc. "Pro-life" is inaccurate for the reasons I listed above, organizations that call themselves pro-life are perpetuating the unscientific notion that birth begins at fertilization/conception which is a POV, anti-abortion would be more appropriate because that's exactly what they're referring to. However, if it would make you feel better, would you Support this move if I also nominated pro-choice to be called pro-abortion? WikiManOne 21:16, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
- You'd never get consensus for that move, so from a purely practical perspective, I'd advise against bothering. There isn't really a concise common-use term for "pro-choice" that's equivalent in neutrality to "anti-abortion," and having the article titles be equivalent is important. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 21:23, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
- I have nominated Pro-choice to be renamed Pro-abortion access, you can input there if you'd like. WikiManOne 06:40, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Support, pro-life is a vague term, designed for people to be OK with. Who's going to be against life? The opposite term could be "people in favor of the legality of abortion". --Againme (talk) 21:25, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose, propose speedy close as stoking unnecessary controversy. Roscelese seems to confirm my suspicion that this attempts to overturn a recent significant consensus. "Pro-life" correctly includes "anti-abortion", "anti-infanticide", "anti-euthanasia", includes some anti-contraception and anti-capital-punishment, and supports the nexus of all these positions with an essential undergirding "whole-life" ethic. I have no problem with "anti-abortion" being a spinout article extending coverage on that portion of the pro-life position. Self-identification is very applicable. JJB 21:44, 3 February 2011 (UTC) Rationale added JJB 21:51, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
- Well, that sounds like a support for renaming this article and creating a new article on your position about what "pro-life" means, since this article is only about anti-abortion. 64.229.101.119 (talk) 23:47, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
- Please can you justify your position? -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:46, 3 February 2011 (UTC) Thanks. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:56, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
- Sir, from the lead of this article: "Pro-life describes the political and ethical opposition to elective abortion, and support for its legal prohibition or restriction." This article clearly discusses the abortion debate. Therefore, your reasoning is invalid. WikiManOne 21:53, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
- It's not my fault that this article, which I have avoided editing in the past, fails to accomplish WP's purpose of including all POVs about what "pro-life" is, and that the notable view I just enunciated among pro-life leaders like Ron Sider has been kept out of the article for whatever reason. However, the proposed move is from a broader term to a narrower term without any compensating proposal for accommodating the broader material. To quote myself from a discussion above: 'If anything there is a sense of "anti-abortion" that restricts it effectively to "anti-induced-abortion", making it the wrong word due to that ambiguity, which "pro-life" does not have'; 'the first citation of "pro-life" is 10 years older than the first of "antiabortion"'; dictionaries 'WNW and AH clearly give "antiabortion" a narrower scope than "pro-life", WNW limiting antiabortion to induced abortion, and AH expanding pro-life to all embryo/fetus protection'; 'As American Heritage makes clear, sometimes "pro-life" conveys a nuance that "antiabortion" does not (laws banning embryonic stem cell research and mandating parental notification for abortions are not antiabortion per se, but are pro-life)'. This is all in addition to the "whole-life" POV. JJB 23:28, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
- But is that the common usage of "pro-life?" Type the phrase in any search engine, I would say at least 80% will be referring to the position on abortion. WikiManOne 23:38, 3 February 2011 (UTC)One 23:38, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
- The first sentence of the Overview sections gives a good indication that the article is about more then "anti-abortion". It says "Pro-life individuals generally believe that human life should be valued either from fertilization or implantation until natural death." It sounds like the lead just needs more clarification that pro-life generally encompasses more then just an abortion debate.Marauder40 (talk) 23:46, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
- You cannot possibly be arguing that parental notification laws are not anti-abortion, what else are they? Feel good and make people like Becky Bell die laws? They're definitely anti-abortion, saying that they are pro-life though is definitely a stretch. WikiManOne 00:32, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- But is that the common usage of "pro-life?" Type the phrase in any search engine, I would say at least 80% will be referring to the position on abortion. WikiManOne 23:38, 3 February 2011 (UTC)One 23:38, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
- It's not my fault that this article, which I have avoided editing in the past, fails to accomplish WP's purpose of including all POVs about what "pro-life" is, and that the notable view I just enunciated among pro-life leaders like Ron Sider has been kept out of the article for whatever reason. However, the proposed move is from a broader term to a narrower term without any compensating proposal for accommodating the broader material. To quote myself from a discussion above: 'If anything there is a sense of "anti-abortion" that restricts it effectively to "anti-induced-abortion", making it the wrong word due to that ambiguity, which "pro-life" does not have'; 'the first citation of "pro-life" is 10 years older than the first of "antiabortion"'; dictionaries 'WNW and AH clearly give "antiabortion" a narrower scope than "pro-life", WNW limiting antiabortion to induced abortion, and AH expanding pro-life to all embryo/fetus protection'; 'As American Heritage makes clear, sometimes "pro-life" conveys a nuance that "antiabortion" does not (laws banning embryonic stem cell research and mandating parental notification for abortions are not antiabortion per se, but are pro-life)'. This is all in addition to the "whole-life" POV. JJB 23:28, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
- Support per neutral sources using Anti-Abortion. Also, Pro-life would suggest the opposite is Anti-life. GoodDay (talk) 22:10, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
- Support self-evident that "Pro-Life" is not NPOV; it means their opponents are 'anti-life'. It also lacks precision as it does not accurately describe the article. The article is not about, eg, anti-euthanasia or anti-suicide. The article says it's about "the political and ethical opposition to elective abortion, and support for its legal prohibition or restriction". 'Anti-abortion' is more accurate, mor neutral and more international ('pro-life' being especially associated with the US) DeCausa (talk) 22:52, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose as has been said before in the archive the last time this came up. "The convention throughout abortion-related articles is to use the terms "pro-life" and "pro-choice" per the self-identifying terminology guideline in WP:MoS." Marauder40 (talk) 23:07, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
Can you link to this exact guideline, I can't see anything on WP:TITLE that makes that point?I'd have thought WP:NDESC or WP:POVTITLE would be the most relevant pieces of policy. EDIT: I found the guideline MOS:IDENTITY - but that's a guideline, whereas the other two are policies and thus carry more weight. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 23:14, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose This discussion will end up being more about editor's views regarding abortion rather than a dispassionate analysis of the content of the article against WP:AT, which is sad. A move here is likely to see a cascading series of move requests that will have more to do with US domestic politics than Wikipedia's naming policy. While this could be seen as Wikipedia defining the opposition to this group's aims as "Anti Life" this is easily avoided by actually naming the opposing topic Pro-choice, which of course we do. I find the whole "defining the opposition" argument a little strange to use as justification for this move however. If the article on this topic was named as "Anti abortion" wouldn't that then define the opposition as "Pro-abortion". Is this any better than "Anti Life"? -- Mattinbgn (talk) 23:17, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
- Your argument does not answer any of the arguments made in favor of the move above.
I understand that as Catholic, it is hard for you to think that your position is anything but pro-life, butcould you consider allowing it to be renamed to be a more precise description of what the position is all about? Anti-abortion would not define the opposition, it would not define anything but provide precise identification for the article. Pro-life inherently endorses the view that a fetus is somehow a "life" and therefore violates WP:NPOV. WikiManOne 23:27, 3 February 2011 (UTC)- 70% of UK catholics are
pro-lifepro-choice, so I'm not sure how ones religion means you cannot be pro-choice. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 23:32, 3 February 2011 (UTC) - What makes you think I am Catholic? Provide evidence, please or withdraw. You have absolutely no idea about my views on abortion and I suggest you stop trying to tell me what I think. Your comment and your unwarranted assumptions here has strengthened my belief that this move discussion has little to do with improving Wikipedia and more about using this encyclopedia to fight off-wiki political battles. -- Mattinbgn (talk) 23:38, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
- 70% of UK catholics are
- Your argument does not answer any of the arguments made in favor of the move above.
- Seconding Eraserhead here. Please don't attack people's editing on the basis of their religion. That would not be appropriate even if being Catholic meant that you opposed abortion. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 23:36, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
- (ec) Good crystallization of issues above. First, pro-life and pro-choice are not antonyms, defusing any argument from antonyms (as use of proabortion and antiabortion would permit and inflame). Second, most Catholics are broadly pro-life as I state above (often "whole-life"): I understand they often connect their pro-life position also to ESCR, contraception, euthanasia, capital punishment, nuclear war, etc. Third, we are rapidly descending into POV arguments if WikiManOne infers that "pro-life" endorses a fetus being the second half of Webster's 1life 8 : a vital or living being; specif : PERSON; in fact, "pro-life" actually only endorses what everyone agrees to, the first half. (1live 1 : to be alive : have the life of an animal or plant; 1life 1 a : the quality that distinguishes a vital and functional being from a dead body.) Please do not use the ambiguity of "life" to insist on swapping one of its meanings for another. JJB 23:42, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
- JJB, pro-life is clearly used by anti-abortion activists as a way to promote their cause and has been clearly noted as a deliberate misnomer. [9] [10] This [11] LA Times article which states "The term pro-life is a misnomer when used to describe people who oppose legal abortion because it implies that they have a greater respect for life than [pro choice individuals]." There are plenty more such sources from mainstream literature. Pro-life in this article is being used to describe those that oppose abortion, which in this usage is clearly simply a misnomer. WikiManOne 23:52, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
- Support "anti-abortion" is accurate and fairly common. "pro-life" is inaccurate, since many of the anti-abortionists support the death penalty, and are not vegans, so support the killing of animals, and are not pacifists, so some of them also support some wars, and support the use of deadly force in self-defense. 64.229.101.119 (talk) 23:44, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
- Strictly speaking, by your definition, if you believe in killing plants to eat, that's also "anti-life". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:15, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Support The current title is needlessly controversial. "Anti-abortion" is the most commonly-used terminology, including by the activists themselves as clearly demonstrated by the sources. The Celestial City (talk) 23:54, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
- Support makes a heap of sense, why wouldn't you? 166.137.139.66 (talk) 23:59, 3 February 2011 (UTC) This template must be substituted.
- Support. The main purpose of pro-life organizations, the main purpose of the pro-life movement is to end abortion, or at least to heavily limit access to it. This purpose is anti-abortion, plain and simple. Australian news agencies almost always use "anti-abortion" rather than "pro-life". Binksternet (talk) 00:05, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Comment If we change pro-life to anti-abortion, what rationale is there for keeping pro-choice as opposed to pro-abortion? And yet pro-choice activists do not see themselves as promoting abortions for all. I think self-identification for both is a better compromise than trying to adjudicate which tiny sound-bite more accurately describes somebody else's position. betsythedevine (talk) 00:09, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Opppose They self-identify as pro-life, and this usage puts them on equal footing with pro-choice. The seems the more clearly neutral approach. The only way it would be acceptable to support this move is if we simultaneously moved pro-choice to pro-abortion. —Torchiest talkedits 00:15, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Comment The sources provided include the feminist Ms. Magazine, which is obviously a POV source, and not neutral. Also, it seems like WP:COMMONNAME might apply to this. —Torchiest talkedits 01:01, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Support "Pro-life" is a marketing term. It is self selected to sound nicer than being anti-something, and it's a motherhood name, because it sounds like something everyone should want to be. It does not tell the truth. There is nothing to prevent someone claiming to be pro-life being pro-capital punishment. I know some such people. So, it's not a clear name in plain English. It's a marketing name, particularly in the USA. Anti-abortion is much simpler, clearer and straightforward description of those who oppose abortion. Just look at the words in the last sentence. Can there logically be a more honest name than anti-abortion? As for the question just above - "...what rationale is there for keeping pro-choice as opposed to pro-abortion?" - well, "pro-choice" too is a perfectly accurate description of the position of those who are willing to accept abortion in some situations. I hate the idea of abortion, but I see that it is the best approach in some situations. That does not make me pro-abortion. That would be a very inaccurate description of my position. HiLo48 (talk) 00:22, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Plenty of movement names or company names are marketing names. The tea party movement is not predominately about literally conducting parties in which people are drinking tea - rather, the term is a marketing one in reference to the tea parties during the American revolution. --B (talk) 00:36, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose. "Pro-life" is a political position or a movement. "Anti-abortion" is a particular bill. Used in a sentence, "Pro-life members of congress sponsored an anti-abortion bill that would ban late term abortions". Similarly, "pro-gun control members of congress sponsored an anti-gun measure that would ban assault rifles". "Anti-abortion" and "anti-choice" are also used as a pejorative by persons who support legalized abortion (incidentally, that article is "pro-choice", not "pro-abortion"). --B (talk) 00:36, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- That's merely a parochial US perspective (assuming it's true even in US) DeCausa (talk) 00:54, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Perhaps, but the French article is fr:Mouvement pro-vie (I don't speak French, but I understand that), German is de:Lebensrechtsbewegung (Google translates it "right to life movement"), Spanish is es:pro vida, Italian is it:Movimento pro-life. While I'm freely willing to admit that my perspective of the world outside the US is limited, at least four non-English Wikipedias call this article "pro life", not "anti-abortion". If the concern is that the "pro-life movement" also devotes some energy to other issues like embryonic stem cell research and the death penalty, maybe the solution should be to incorporate that into the article, not to rename the article. Pro-life doesn't have to be the exact opposite of pro-choice. --B (talk) 01:03, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- That's merely a parochial US perspective (assuming it's true even in US) DeCausa (talk) 00:54, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Support Assuming someone not familiar with the debate or the naming conventions were to come to an encyclopedia to look for information on the subject, the proposed title is more neutral, and Pro-Life (and Pro-Choice, for that matter) should be made to redirect. David Able 00:43, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- As long as there is a redirect, we could name the article evil people who don't agree with a woman's god-given right to abort her unborn baby and people searching for information could find it. Besides, if the more common term is "pro-life", not "anti-abortion", it seems like the more common term would be the preferred one, if the title of the article actually did make a difference in someone's ability to find it. --B (talk) 00:54, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- That's one of the points - it's not the "more common term". Anti-abortion is. Pro-Life is only ever used by the groups themselves as a marketing tool. Generally, no one else calls them that.— Preceding unsigned comment added by DeCausa (talk • contribs)
- I don't believe that's true. Encyclopedia Britannica says pro-life. Encarta says pro-life. Neither of them have "anti-abortion" as an entry. Here's the reason for the misconception - you're relying on what people who are opposed to the pro-life movement call it. Abortion is a wedge issue and it isn't one on which anybody is truly neutral. When US news media types refer to it as the "anti-abortion" movement (as opposed to an "anti-abortion" protest or an "anti-abortion" bill) they are simply showing their bias. The term for the movement itself is and always has been the "pro-life movement". Even if that is the movement's preferred name, so what? How many articles about groups don't refer to the group by its preferred name? --B (talk) 01:16, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- That's one of the points - it's not the "more common term". Anti-abortion is. Pro-Life is only ever used by the groups themselves as a marketing tool. Generally, no one else calls them that.— Preceding unsigned comment added by DeCausa (talk • contribs)
- As long as there is a redirect, we could name the article evil people who don't agree with a woman's god-given right to abort her unborn baby and people searching for information could find it. Besides, if the more common term is "pro-life", not "anti-abortion", it seems like the more common term would be the preferred one, if the title of the article actually did make a difference in someone's ability to find it. --B (talk) 00:54, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Comment - is there not a way to disambiguate it? You are never going to reach a consensus. I know what my view is but feel that it would add little to the debate. It is one of those issues of semantics that will never be resolved, although there might be a place in the article to explain - NPOV'ly, of course - why even the terminology is controversial. The actual choice of term is, well, "deja vu, all over again". Sitush (talk) 01:09, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Comment Noting that this is a global encyclopaedia, I politely ask those who claim that "Pro-life" is the more common term if they have ever looked outside the USA? HiLo48 (talk) 01:24, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Purely anecdotal, and therefore worthless I guess, but in the UK most people I talk with use the word "abortion" and see "pro-life" as an emotive phrase. "abortion" or "termination" are the medical terms here, and many even scoff at "termination". But that might be down to whom I converse with, hence a POV etc. This is the problem. I have no great inclination towards one or the other: one appears to soft-soap and the other, whilst medically correct, is seen by a significant number to be "cruel", even in the way it is pronounced (too many hard consonants cf sibilants of "pro-life"). Weird. Sitush (talk) 01:32, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Well, if you google site:bbc.co.uk "pro-life", you get 1510 g-hits and if you google site:bbc.co.uk "anti-abortion", you get 1130 g-hits. Google site:uk "pro-life" and you get 49K g-hits and google site:uk "anti-abortion" and you get 12K g-hits. As I stated above, Encarta and Britannica both have entries for pro-life and neither has an entry for anti-abortion. This whole thing is a ridiculous discussion. The term for the movement used by anyone who isn't opposed to it is "pro-life". --B (talk) 03:27, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose. We must be neutral, and that means we must use terms of self-identification over terms used by opponents that assume the opponents' perspective. In this sense, every "support move" opinion I read above this comment shouts loudly why we must not move the article, precisely because every support opinion conveys a belief that we had better present the pro-choice worldview as so correct as to properly be assumed without comment. — Gavia immer (talk) 02:14, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Lobbying by "Oppose" voter: User Kenatipo has violated the WP:CANVASS policy by lobbying another user to change their comment from "Comment" to "Oppose." [12] WikiManOne 03:33, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- That's not canvassing. Betsythedevine had already commented here. Please focus on the debate. Fences&Windows 03:37, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- (ec)A conversation between exactly two editors is not a violation of the canvassing guideline, nor should it be interpreted as one. Persuasion is not only allowable, but much to be desired if a consensus is to be reached. — Gavia immer (talk) 03:39, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Fine, I have renamed it "lobbying" instead of canvassing. I still think it falls under the same category but regardless. WikiManOne 03:41, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- With just over 1500 edits to your credit, you have a lot to learn about how Wikipedia works with the relevant policies. ArcAngel (talk) ) 04:01, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Support move. I think the sources are such that such a retitle can be made. Moreover, "pro-life" doesn't always just refer to anti-abortion sentiments. It can mean opposition to euthanasia, for example. Anti-abortion is quite neutral and far more specific. Just because anti-abortion activists might not like the term doesn't mean it's non-neutral. Lovetinkle (talk) 03:46, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose Unless you are going to propose to change "pro-choice" to something similar so that our "international" audience can understand it better. ArcAngel (talk) ) 04:01, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Comment I think that should also be renamed (as this should be renamed), though to what is less obvious. abortion-access is a possibility. 64.229.101.119 (talk) 05:16, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Comment - I did propose that Pro-choice be renamed to something similar. So now I guess you aren't opposing anymore? See discussion at Talk:Pro-choice. WikiManOne 06:40, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose That's how they self-identify, and it's the most common term. Dayewalker (talk) 04:40, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose - both terms are violations of NPOV ... "anti-anything" tends to have a negative connotation, and "pro-anything" has a positive connotation (I cannot in anyway buy for a moment people here saying "pro-" is so POV, but "anti-" is perfectly neutral). Arguing that one term is more NPOV is not something that I would buy. I thought it was true that many (though not all) pro-life groups go beyond the abortion issue (ie, opposing doctor assisted-suicide) ... so using a term like anti-abortion in this case may not be any more or less NPOV, I think it would be less precise. Not to mention, I think that most pro-life groups refer to themselves in that way ... I could get a lot of people to support moving "New York Yankees" to "Evil Empire", but that's not what the Yankees call themselves ... even if I found a vast majority of sources supporting that this is what a majority of people call the Yankees, it still shouldn't be moved. LonelyBeacon (talk) 05:28, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose, precisely per Mattinbgn. -- Lear's Fool 05:57, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Support - Generally, we should be supportive of what a movement calls itself, except, of course, when that description is deliberately obfuscatory, as "Pro-life" is, since it seeks to hide the primary thrust of the movement, which is to outlaw abortions. If the abortion-rights movement started to try to position itself as the "Unwanted Child Protection Movement", the questin would be the same: which name most accurately represents the focus of the movement, versus one selected for its public-relations value? In this instance, "anti-abortion" is the name which most accurately describes the movement. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:24, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Deliberately obfuscatory? Good grief, do you really think that any person who self-identifies as pro-life doesn't intend for you to understand that they oppose abortions? The pro-abortion movement is "pro choice". The anti-abortion movement is "pro life". In both cases, the terms avoid the word abortion and describe something we would all find positive. All of us believe that life is a good thing and all of us believe that choice is a good thing. Who in the world is going to name their organization or movement something that doesn't sound like a good thing? If the guy who founded McDonald's had called it McPoopburgers, would you go there? The Wikipedia article should be about what the movement is really called, not about what you wish it was called. It is really called the "pro-life movement" whether you like the name or not. Microsoft is called Microsoft, even though I'd rather call them "company that makes software that blue screens constantly". Phillip Morris isn't called "company that sells death sticks". Apple isn't called "overpriced toys for nerds and limousine liberals". --B (talk) 06:34, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- In case it isn't obvious, I meant that to be light hearted, this thread is getting very heated.
- Oppose Per Dayewalker. Jclemens (talk) 06:50, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose - Both "Pro-Life" and "Pro-Choice" are "marketing terms". You can't change the one to anti-abortion without changing the other to pro-abortion. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:13, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Bugs, how exactly is the pro-choice-movement "pro-abortion"? Are they the folks who want to force every woman to abort at least one of their fetuses? Never heard of them... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 07:15, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- They support the right to abortion-on-demand, while the other group opposes it. And since you bring it up, there are very few who support a blanket ban of all abortions. Primarily it's abortion-on-demand that they oppose. Abortion as a medical decision (i.e. to save the mother's life) has much less traction. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:21, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- "Anti-abortion" isn't even an accurate substitute for "pro-life." There are quite a few pro-choice people who are also anti-abortion, but they still support the legality of abortion. The issue isn't actually abortion, but rather the legality of the act. Dayewalker (talk) 07:27, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Bugs, you're confusing those who are for a right vs. those who are for a duty; on the one side you have people who want to tell others what to do, on the other you have those who want to leave everybody alone. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 08:04, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- "Anti-abortion" isn't even an accurate substitute for "pro-life." There are quite a few pro-choice people who are also anti-abortion, but they still support the legality of abortion. The issue isn't actually abortion, but rather the legality of the act. Dayewalker (talk) 07:27, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- They support the right to abortion-on-demand, while the other group opposes it. And since you bring it up, there are very few who support a blanket ban of all abortions. Primarily it's abortion-on-demand that they oppose. Abortion as a medical decision (i.e. to save the mother's life) has much less traction. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:21, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Comment, for those of you who say that pro-choice is the correct term, perhaps you could give me a rationale why all of the following news articles in mentioning someone's "pro-life" identity state "pro-life, meaning anti-abortion" or some variation of that: [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] [19]
If pro-life is really the most common and appropriate term to describe these people, why is it necessary for them to note that that means anti-abortion? The truth is that its an imprecise propaganda term used by the anti-abortion lobby, and a neutral point of view would require its renaming. WikiManOne 07:22, 4 February 2011 (UTC)- And "Pro-Choice" is a propaganda term to describe supporters of abortion rights. In fact, I have often heard Pro-Life folks refer to abortion-on-demand advocates as "Anti-Life", and sometimes I think they're onto something. Some in the so-called "Pro-Choice" folks, like the vegan somewhere up the page, oppose defending ourselves against enemy nations without and murderers within, yet somehow killing the unborn is perfectly OK. Go figure. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:25, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- That didn't sound like a rationale, this is about neutral point of view and making the article accessible, not pushing a certain point of view. If pro-life is so widely used, then why did all the articles above feel the need to clarify what they meant by pro-life? Because its an inherently vague term. WikiManOne 07:28, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- "Anti-abortion" is neither neutral nor accurate. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:30, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- "Anti-abortion" is perfectly accurate, and it gets its neutrality from its accuracy. Binksternet (talk) 07:55, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- "Anti-abortion" is neither neutral nor accurate. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:30, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- That didn't sound like a rationale, this is about neutral point of view and making the article accessible, not pushing a certain point of view. If pro-life is so widely used, then why did all the articles above feel the need to clarify what they meant by pro-life? Because its an inherently vague term. WikiManOne 07:28, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- And "Pro-Choice" is a propaganda term to describe supporters of abortion rights. In fact, I have often heard Pro-Life folks refer to abortion-on-demand advocates as "Anti-Life", and sometimes I think they're onto something. Some in the so-called "Pro-Choice" folks, like the vegan somewhere up the page, oppose defending ourselves against enemy nations without and murderers within, yet somehow killing the unborn is perfectly OK. Go figure. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:25, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- But "pro-abortion" doesn't? - Haymaker (talk) 08:02, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Indeed it doesn't. Pro-choice says "it's up to you, you can either do it, or you don't". Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 08:05, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Can't you say the same thing of which ever side is arguing for less government regulation in any argument? People who argue for an unobstructed right to union membership, politicians who wants courts to be able to hand out the death penalty, folks who want fewer firearm regulations are all saying "it's up to you, you can either do it, or you don't". Pro-choice is emotive and non-specific, if we knock pro-life to anti-abortion there is no reason to keep "pro-choice". - Haymaker (talk) 08:13, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- You seriously don't see the difference? >> "You must eat Bananas." — "You must not eat Bananas." — "If you want some, there are Bananas on the table." And the firearm-thing is called "gun-rights," not "pro-gun" for a reason: we don't have legislation which forces you to own a gun. That only exist in some nutcase village in Utah I was told. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 08:17, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Can't you say the same thing of which ever side is arguing for less government regulation in any argument? People who argue for an unobstructed right to union membership, politicians who wants courts to be able to hand out the death penalty, folks who want fewer firearm regulations are all saying "it's up to you, you can either do it, or you don't". Pro-choice is emotive and non-specific, if we knock pro-life to anti-abortion there is no reason to keep "pro-choice". - Haymaker (talk) 08:13, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Indeed it doesn't. Pro-choice says "it's up to you, you can either do it, or you don't". Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 08:05, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- But "pro-abortion" doesn't? - Haymaker (talk) 08:02, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Neutral, Although it is a POV term. I concur with all the points raised by the nominee. However, we would also have to change the pro-choice title for the same reason. So i think this is nullified. Someone65 (talk) 08:33, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Comment - That is completely wrong, and I explicitly made a point of saying so above. (I wish we had a rule in AfDs that said any post that ignored previous posts got automatically deleted.) Anti-abortion means exactly that. Total opposition to abortion. Pro-choice does not mean pro-abortion. I hate the idea of abortion, but I see it as a necessary evil in some cases. So, I am not pro-abortion, but I certainly want a choice to exist in some situations. HiLo48 (talk) 10:11, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Pro-choice doesn't mean anything. What choice is being presented? It is intentionally hazy and non-specific. - Haymaker (talk) 10:25, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- I think what's really the problem here is that positions on abortion cover a continuum, ranging from total opposition in any circumstances, through allowing it in extreme situations such as after rape, then to where the mother's health is genuinely threatened, and ultimately to giving the mother an absolute right to choose. (And there are many positions in between.) The first group can be easily and clearly described as anti-abortion. Pro-life only works in the narrow self selected definition of one particular anti-abortion movement. Obviously, as a selection of English words, it could mean much more than just anti-abortion, but doesn't necessarily do so. It's not so easy to come up with a simple term to describe people in other places on that continuum. Maybe pro-choice would work for the last of my four groups, but I have no idea how to create a simple label for those in between. And that's the real problem. We are trying to create simple labels for what can be very complex perspectives. There IS no simple annswer. HiLo48 (talk) 10:44, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose The article is about a movement, called "Pro-life". That's how they self-identify and the term is commonly used. I do not see that "Anti-abortion" is more commonly used in the sources. I should also point out that the "Pro-life" gets nearly 40x as many hits as the "Anti-abortion" redirect, so I think it's clear what people are searching. Clearly, the POV status of the name is a hot topic, which I'm not offering an opinion on because that is not what this discussion should be about. Worm 11:19, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Comment That seems a particularly American POV. The sentence "That's how they self-identify and the term is commonly used" is a classic case of WP:OR. Where do "they" self identify that way? Which people self identify that way? Obviously a lot of the big noise makers on the issue use that term, but I know of some anti-abortion folks who want nothing to do with those who have made it a big-scoring political issue. One can be anti-abortion without being part of any movement. HiLo48 (talk) 11:28, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- I'm not American :) I distinctly consider myself un-American. Yet, I am well aware of the term Pro-life and in the sources I've read the campaigners identify as "pro-life". I haven't seen campaigners saying "We're anti-abortion" in sources. News sources seem pretty split down the middle on which term to use, in my opinion, so I don't see a clear need to change it based on that either. Worm 11:41, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Apologies for the suggestion of Americanism. (I might feel insulted myself by such a slight ;-) ) I feel the term "pro-life" certainly came from America, and isn't used universally around the English speaking world. My position is that "anti-abortion" is 100% clear and concise, and relates only to the abortion debate, while "pro-life" can (and does) get used beyond that area. It's not a 100% clear term. The two don't mean the same thing. And what we're talking about here is what is only accurately described by "anti-abortion".
- No worries, as you said, the term has come from America, but I do believe it is has infected other English speaking countries. I can only speak for UK, but as I said, I was aware of the term and only know it in regards to an opinion on abortion. However, I would be persuaded by your argument of accuracy if you could provide me a recent source which discusses pro-life as a term unrelated to abortion. By recent, I mean since the term "pro-life" has enterred the public conscience, the last few years. Just because the term could be interpretted differently doesn't mean it is. Someone mentioned the Tea party movement above. I don't follow American politics enough to know much about it, but I have a feeling it's nothing to do with Tea drinking rights. Worm 11:58, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- It's not just English-speaking countries. Click on the article and look at the interwiki links to this article in other languages. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM calls it some form of "pro life". Latin and Simple English may have evil Americans dominating them, but other Wikipedias have a strong international flavor and they too think the movement is "pro life". In French, pro-vie (the term for "pro life") gets 425K g-hits and anti-IVG (the term for "anti-abortion") gets 243K g-hits. --B (talk) 13:39, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- No worries, as you said, the term has come from America, but I do believe it is has infected other English speaking countries. I can only speak for UK, but as I said, I was aware of the term and only know it in regards to an opinion on abortion. However, I would be persuaded by your argument of accuracy if you could provide me a recent source which discusses pro-life as a term unrelated to abortion. By recent, I mean since the term "pro-life" has enterred the public conscience, the last few years. Just because the term could be interpretted differently doesn't mean it is. Someone mentioned the Tea party movement above. I don't follow American politics enough to know much about it, but I have a feeling it's nothing to do with Tea drinking rights. Worm 11:58, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose. Commenting as an editor who is not involved in this subject. The movement generally describes itself as 'pro-life' because they regard the life of an unborn foetus as taking priority over any rights the mother has to control her body. In general, political campaigns and social movements should have their articles located at the terminology they use to describe themselves. I am not convinced by the suggestion that English-speaking countries other than the USA do not use the term; it certainly seems to be standard in the UK. Even if usage in the UK and other countries is influenced by the USA, then that is something in society which we should reflect. If the use of the terms 'pro-life' and 'anti-abortion' were in roughly the same proportion, I would also argue for using 'pro-life' as it is better, if possible, to describe a movement by what it supports than what it opposes. Sam Blacketer (talk) 12:58, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Support. "Pro-life" is a hugely loaded term and implies that people who support abortion are "anti-life", which is ludicrous. Both terms are commonly used (usually by people with different viewpoints), so the less POV one should be used for the article title. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:03, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Your value judgment about whether or not you like the term doesn't cause the reality to be adjusted. "Pro-life" is overwhelmingly more used, is the title of every single corresponding article in Wikipedia's other languages, and is what the movement calls itself. Not liking the term doesn't change what it is any more than not liking the term "pro choice" would change what it is. Believe it or not, even pro-lifers favor choice in most aspects of life - you choose what to eat for breakfast, what kind of car to buy, and what color shirt to wear. Even pro-lifers support those choices - they are not "anti-choice" any more than pro-choicers are "anti-life". --B (talk) 14:11, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- "Overwelmingly more used"...what nonsense. In the UK, no one would use "pro-life" unless they are a pro-life supporter. The reason is it's inflammatory, and obviously so. It's nothing to do with an individual 'value judgment'. DeCausa (talk) 14:20, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- I take exception to the concept that using the term implies you support the movement. For example, BBC News has 512 instances of "pro-life", and I do not believe they support it. They also have 549 instances of "anti-abortion", not much difference. Worm 14:25, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- irrelevant - see below.
- Indeed. In fact, suppose we check several UK publications:
- "Overwelmingly more used"...what nonsense. In the UK, no one would use "pro-life" unless they are a pro-life supporter. The reason is it's inflammatory, and obviously so. It's nothing to do with an individual 'value judgment'. DeCausa (talk) 14:20, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Your value judgment about whether or not you like the term doesn't cause the reality to be adjusted. "Pro-life" is overwhelmingly more used, is the title of every single corresponding article in Wikipedia's other languages, and is what the movement calls itself. Not liking the term doesn't change what it is any more than not liking the term "pro choice" would change what it is. Believe it or not, even pro-lifers favor choice in most aspects of life - you choose what to eat for breakfast, what kind of car to buy, and what color shirt to wear. Even pro-lifers support those choices - they are not "anti-choice" any more than pro-choicers are "anti-life". --B (talk) 14:11, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
Publication | Pro-life g-hits | anti-abortion g-hits |
---|---|---|
express.co.uk | 506 | 150 |
thesun.co.uk | 1610 | 140 |
guardian.co.uk | 32K | 4890 |
telegraph.co.uk | 3240 | 750 |
independent.co.uk | 13K | 1222 |
- I think I've made my point. --B (talk) 15:34, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- No you haven't because you haven't bothered to look at these hits. Most of them are using them in clearly not a neutral way eg quotes from the likes of Ann Widdecombe!!! You have to go through each hit and distinguish bewtween when the news organisation is using the word 'itself', when a columnist is editorialising and when it's being quoted, usually of a pro-lifer. What you've produced is worthless - except... the one's I did take a look at support the view that pro-life is used in a non-neutral context. (Oh, and by the way, the Sun/Express/Telegraph are hardly 'neutral'! DeCausa (talk) 16:01, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- I think I've made my point. --B (talk) 15:34, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Support. "Pro-life" is of course just a euphemism for anti-abortion, in the same way that "pro-choice" is a euphemism for pro-abortion. We should not use euphemisms as titles, especially when they are as cryptic as these two are to an international audience. "Pro-life" might just as well refer to activism against the death penalty, and "pro-choice" might just as well refer to activism for the right of employers to discriminate on the basis of race and gender. This article should be renamed to anti-abortion, and pro-choice should be renamed to pro-abortion. If necessary, a joint move proposal should be created and announced on WP:CENT. Hans Adler 15:19, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- If you're going to rename the one, you need to rename them both. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:25, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- I'm not sure about that. This BBC glossary points out that "Supporters of the pro-choice agenda do not necessarily support abortion itself, only the position that women are entitled to make the decision themselves." Worm 15:36, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Oddly enough, that same glossary has an entry for pro life, but not for anti-abortion. I think it's a real shame that the BBC is so biased towards America that they are using the America-only term instead of the proper international term. (dripping with sarcasm) --B (talk) 15:40, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- I'm not sure about that. This BBC glossary points out that "Supporters of the pro-choice agenda do not necessarily support abortion itself, only the position that women are entitled to make the decision themselves." Worm 15:36, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- If you're going to rename the one, you need to rename them both. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:25, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose Basically WP is not the place to open cans of worms indiscriminately, and that would be the primary result of such a move. Nor is the title "inflammatory" to anyone I have known. Collect (talk) 15:43, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose per WP:UCN. This is a pointless ideological dispute. I'm a firm pro-Choicer in my own political life, but this clearly against WP:UCN. We do not dissect the meaning of words that go into group labels here, and determine on our own that they are illogical, irrational, etc. People should also be reminded that WP:BATTLEGROUND is part of the policy WP:N - "Wikipedia is not a place to ... carry on ideological battles." Let's end this nonsense and carry on improving the encyclopedia.Griswaldo (talk) 15:47, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you for so succintly saying what I was thinking. Worm 15:50, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose Why not rename it Anti-choice or Anti-death.Slatersteven (talk) 16:06, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Highly suggest that someone WP:SNOW close this immediately, and let everyone get back to doing something useful with their time. I'd do it myself but Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions#Non-admin closure suggests that I shouldn't. SnottyWong babble 16:13, 4 February 2011 (UTC)