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:: Gotha is not a RS, and Bertrand is not cited by it. Brazil is a republic since 1889 and do not recognize this and other "princes". You was reported to [[WP:ANI#DWC_LR_monarquism_civil_push-pov|WP:ANI]]. [[User:Ixocactus|Ixocactus]] ([[User talk:Ixocactus|talk]]) 21:04, 27 February 2022 (UTC) |
:: Gotha is not a RS, and Bertrand is not cited by it. Brazil is a republic since 1889 and do not recognize this and other "princes". You was reported to [[WP:ANI#DWC_LR_monarquism_civil_push-pov|WP:ANI]]. [[User:Ixocactus|Ixocactus]] ([[User talk:Ixocactus|talk]]) 21:04, 27 February 2022 (UTC) |
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:::Gotha is a reliable source as are the others. Sources disagree that these people are not princes. Russia says Crimea is part of Russia which de facto it is, Wikipedia just have to go along with that? Hungary says you can’t change your birth gender, Wikipedia have to label those people by birth gender as is the legal case? - [[User:DWC LR|dwc lr]] ([[User talk:DWC LR|talk]]) 09:39, 28 February 2022 (UTC) |
:::Gotha is a reliable source as are the others. Sources disagree that these people are not princes. Russia says Crimea is part of Russia which de facto it is, Wikipedia just have to go along with that? Hungary says you can’t change your birth gender, Wikipedia have to label those people by birth gender as is the legal case? - [[User:DWC LR|dwc lr]] ([[User talk:DWC LR|talk]]) 09:39, 28 February 2022 (UTC) |
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:::: Oh god there was yet ''another'' one. Let me be explicitly clear: this kind of edgelord analogy is grossly inappropriate trolling, and if I see it again you can be sure that you will find yourself the subject of an ANI thread about it. --[[User:JayBeeEll|JBL]] ([[User_talk:JayBeeEll|talk]]) 03:48, 1 March 2022 (UTC) |
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== Requested move 28 February 2022 == |
== Requested move 28 February 2022 == |
Revision as of 03:48, 1 March 2022
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Untitled
Brazil, one imagines. Absolutely brain-softening. --Wetman 04:59, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
"Being a Traditionalist Catholic and a member of Tradition, Family and Property, Prince Bertrand is not married and has no issue, so his dynastic heir is his younger brother, Prince Antonio of Orléans-Braganza, who is married to a Belgian princess, Princess Cristina of Ligne, with issue."
Sorry, I don't seem to have my log-in name ready right now, but I wanted to address an issue on this page. I know for certain that there is no prohibition on Traditionalist Catholics marrying, and I don't believe that TFP members take any kind of vow of celibacy, so if Prince Bertrand is unmarried I don't believe that this is directly caused by his traditionalism or his TFP membership. —Preceding unsigned comment added by D.E. Aurelius (talk) 23:18, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
206.78.191.99 (talk) 23:14, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
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Not a prince
Please @DWC LR:, provide a source to use Prince in title. I reverted you and, by history,
{{subst:DNAU|Sturm}} are against your move too. Next time you will be reported to WP:ANI. Ixocactus (talk) 10:35, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
- Many respected reference works attribute a royal title for example Burke's Royal Families of the World: Europe and Latin America v. 1, Almanach de Gotha’s etc. [1] calls him Prince imperial of Brazil. Also Prince of Orleans- Braganza is a French title so what does the legal view of Brazil matter.-dwc lr (talk) 14:19, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
- Gotha is not a RS, and Bertrand is not cited by it. Brazil is a republic since 1889 and do not recognize this and other "princes". You was reported to WP:ANI. Ixocactus (talk) 21:04, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
- Gotha is a reliable source as are the others. Sources disagree that these people are not princes. Russia says Crimea is part of Russia which de facto it is, Wikipedia just have to go along with that? Hungary says you can’t change your birth gender, Wikipedia have to label those people by birth gender as is the legal case? - dwc lr (talk) 09:39, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
- Gotha is not a RS, and Bertrand is not cited by it. Brazil is a republic since 1889 and do not recognize this and other "princes". You was reported to WP:ANI. Ixocactus (talk) 21:04, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
Requested move 28 February 2022
Prince Bertrand of Orléans-Braganza → Bertrand of Orléans-Braganza – There is dispute over whether "Prince" should be part of the title and a move war over this. I have no personal opinion on this, but am reverting the latest move back to the stable page name and creating this RM as the proper course of action for concerned parties to discuss. Spike 'em (talk) 09:40, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose thank you Spike 'em for your sensible neutral intervention here. Same logic as at Talk:Princess Maria Francisca of Orléans-Braganza#Requested move 18 February 2022, also WP:NCNT and for consistency across the articles on the Orleans-Braganza’s, Burkes Peerage calls him Prince as does the French reference works Le Petit Gotha. The Almanach de Gotha 1944 calls him Prince on p34 , the 2013 calls him Prince Imperial of Brazil. Then there are news outlets [2], [3]. The irony is this article doesn’t even use a Brazilian title, for example Prince Imperial of Brazil or Prince of Brazil, but instead Prince of Orleans-Braganza which has only existed since 1909 by recognition of the French pretender the Duke of Orleans. Prince has been in the title since day 1 in 2005 and stable Bar a short period following an undiscussed move. dwc lr (talk) 10:20, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
- Support No one born in 1941 is a prince of an empire than ended in 1889, nor a prince of Orleans, etc., obviously, because there is no kingdom for him to be a prince of. The fact that people pretend to be princes is sort of tediously predictable, as is the fact that people obsessed with tracing the lineages of former monarchies take those pretenses seriously, as is the fact that various news sources incidentally use the titles people falsely claim. Luckily objective reality is sufficiently clear that it shouldn't even be necessary to point out the farcically poor quality of the sources dwc lr has chosen to present. --JBL (talk) 16:08, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
- Is the BBC a garbage source? They call also him Prince Imperial of Brazil! This is a BLP yet you’ve not cited a single source here. The fact the monarchy is abolished is irrelevant no one is pretending Brazil is a monarchy but it is a long established tradition that royal status is widely recognised regardless as sources support in this case. Swedish royals used to only be able to marry princes/princesses to keep their titles, the current kings father married the ”legally” German commoner Miss Prinzessin von Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha, yet when a couple of his brothers married commoners (Miss Erica Maria Patzek and Miss Kerstin Wijkmark) they had to give up their rights. Funny reality that - dwc lr (talk) 17:06, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
- Listen, I understand, some people like furries or BDSM, your kink is with the idea that there are lots of nobility running around just waiting to be restored to their rightful place or whatever; on a personal level, more power to you. But please, do it at fandom.com and stop polluting Wikipedia with this garbage. --JBL (talk) 22:46, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
- Is the BBC a garbage source? They call also him Prince Imperial of Brazil! This is a BLP yet you’ve not cited a single source here. The fact the monarchy is abolished is irrelevant no one is pretending Brazil is a monarchy but it is a long established tradition that royal status is widely recognised regardless as sources support in this case. Swedish royals used to only be able to marry princes/princesses to keep their titles, the current kings father married the ”legally” German commoner Miss Prinzessin von Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha, yet when a couple of his brothers married commoners (Miss Erica Maria Patzek and Miss Kerstin Wijkmark) they had to give up their rights. Funny reality that - dwc lr (talk) 17:06, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
- Reading WP:NCNT the relevant section seems to be
Do not use hypothetical, dissolved or defunct titles, including pretenders (real or hypothetical), unless this is what the majority of reliable sources use.
which turns this into a commonname discussion. Are there any BBC articles about him in English as it is generally English language sources that we should poll for this? Spike 'em (talk) 23:33, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
- Reading WP:NCNT the relevant section seems to be
- Support. There are plenty of RS that not only don't play into this monarchist promotionalism, but even explicitly reject it, e.g. La Times/Financial Times:
Época Negócios:Bertrand Maria José Pio Januário Miguel Gabriel Rafael Gonzaga de Orleans e Bragança e Wittelsbach has a regal name but no crown — which is what he craves.
“A return to monarchic rule is the only way to rule Brazil,” said the man more simply known as Dom Bertrand or, as he may prefer, “Prince Imperial of Brazil,” heir to Brazil’s defunct throne.Heir to the extinct throne, Dom Bertrand de Orleans e Bragança lives in a rented 2-bedroom house. A British newspaper report describes the routine of the self-proclaimed Imperial Prince of Brazil.
Metrópoles:Dom Bertrand Orleans and Bragança, theoretically the "Imperial Prince of Brazil"...
BBC:
Another FT piece:the monarchist leader Bertrand Maria José Pio Januário Miguel Gabriel Rafael Gonzaga de Orleans e Bragança had scheduled meetings with newly sworn in parliamentarians.
In the office of federal deputy Carla Zambelli (PSL-SP), Dom Bertrand - as he is called by followers...Dom Bertrand, heir to a defunct throne ... This is not what readers of the FT want to see in an article about the illustrious “Prince Imperial of Brazil” — heir to Brazil’s defunct throne...
Folha de S. Paulo:At the age of 78, Dom Bertrand de Orleans e Bragança travels Brazil...
R7:The imperial family "has black blood", says "prince" of Brazil. D. Bertrand de Orleans and Bragança leads movement that tries to restore the monarchy.
Given he is legally not a prince but seeks to promote himself as such, that we have RS regularly referring to him as simply "Bertrand de Orleans e Bragança", and that multiple RS assert the "prince" title is self-proclaimed and used only by the small percent of Brazilians who are monarchists; and also given the successor to the defunct throne is disputed anyway; the NPOV position is very clearly on the side of moving this article to the proposed name. JoelleJay (talk) 01:18, 1 March 2022 (UTC) - Support. As tempting as it is to simply comment "Prince of what?", I will also mention that including "Prince" goes against WP:TITLESINTITLES. The "Mother Teresa" exception clearly does not apply. There are, I am sure, a significant number of articles in RSs that refer to "Sir Patrick Stewart" or "Dame Judi Dench", but we don't title their articles that way. Egsan Bacon (talk) 02:10, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
- Support. all titles specific to the monarchy of brazil in articles of people born after the end of the monarchy in Brazil should be removed. See, e.g., Prince Luiz of Orléans-Braganza, Prince Pedro Henrique of Orléans-Braganza, Prince Pedro Luiz of Orléans-Braganza, Princess Pia Maria of Orléans-Braganza etc. Pls, can someone edit in order to movie of all applicable cases? Sturm (talk) 03:25, 1 March 2022 (UTC)