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:::::I don't think your Dutch is the problem. My German is fairly reasonable and the languages are not dissimilar, but I still can't understand what this translation is trying to say. [[User:Rumiton|Rumiton]] ([[User talk:Rumiton|talk]]) 13:04, 1 December 2008 (UTC) Looking at it again, the brain gets tangled trying to sort out what the author means by the word "charisma." The Oxford says, "Divinely conferred power or talent; capacity to inspire followers with devotion and enthusiasm." The German word is similar, and similarly positive in tone, but maybe it means something a bit different in Dutch, as what follows ''materialistic, pampered and intellectually unremarkable'' and stage-managed doesn't sit with charismatic at all. Bad sentences like this don't add to anyone's understanding of the subject, unless they can be radically rephrased. Anyone care to try again? [[User:Rumiton|Rumiton]] ([[User talk:Rumiton|talk]]) 13:38, 1 December 2008 (UTC) |
:::::I don't think your Dutch is the problem. My German is fairly reasonable and the languages are not dissimilar, but I still can't understand what this translation is trying to say. [[User:Rumiton|Rumiton]] ([[User talk:Rumiton|talk]]) 13:04, 1 December 2008 (UTC) Looking at it again, the brain gets tangled trying to sort out what the author means by the word "charisma." The Oxford says, "Divinely conferred power or talent; capacity to inspire followers with devotion and enthusiasm." The German word is similar, and similarly positive in tone, but maybe it means something a bit different in Dutch, as what follows ''materialistic, pampered and intellectually unremarkable'' and stage-managed doesn't sit with charismatic at all. Bad sentences like this don't add to anyone's understanding of the subject, unless they can be radically rephrased. Anyone care to try again? [[User:Rumiton|Rumiton]] ([[User talk:Rumiton|talk]]) 13:38, 1 December 2008 (UTC) |
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::::::I combined material ascribed to him (mea culpa) -- I was not sure why the second sentence was there, nor how it directly related to Rawat and "charisma" but I figured whoever juxtaposed the material must have some sort of balancing intent of some sort. [[User:Collect|Collect]] ([[User talk:Collect|talk]]) 13:46, 1 December 2008 (UTC) |
::::::I combined material ascribed to him (mea culpa) -- I was not sure why the second sentence was there, nor how it directly related to Rawat and "charisma" but I figured whoever juxtaposed the material must have some sort of balancing intent of some sort. [[User:Collect|Collect]] ([[User talk:Collect|talk]]) 13:46, 1 December 2008 (UTC) |
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:::::::That may be correct, but as it stands that part of the section is not earning its keep, especially with the words "pure example" of charisma. Instant confusion. If nobody can resolve this dilemma I suggest we remove the whole paragraph. [[User:Rumiton|Rumiton]] ([[User talk:Rumiton|talk]]) 14:03, 1 December 2008 (UTC) |
Revision as of 14:03, 1 December 2008
![]() | Prem Rawat was a Philosophy and religion good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | |||||||||||||||
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Current status: Former good article nominee |
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- This talk page contains numerous non-archive subpages involving past disagreements, including: /Bio, /Bio proposal, /Bio proposal/talk, /Bio proposal nr2, /Bio proposal nr2/talk, /Comments, /GA Review March 07, /GA review 1, /Teachings, /Teachings (draft), /criticism, /lead, /temp1
- Sources: /scholars, /journalists, /WIGMJ, /First person accounts, /Lifestyle, /Bibliography
- Reference quotations removed from inline cites: /References
- Related talk of a merged page: Talk:Criticism of Prem Rawat (and archives of that talk page: Archive 14 • Archive 13 • Archive 12 •Archive 11 • Archive 10 •Archive 9 • Archive 8 • Archive 7 • Archive 6 • Archive 5 • Archive 4 • Archive 3 • Archive 2 • Archive 1)
Free of charge
If we're going to cite sources saying that the initiation is free of charge then we also need to include the sources that say initiates are expected to pay for having received the Knowledge. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 03:33, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
- Which sources? The techniques have been always offered free of charge. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:00, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
- We have several sources that say initiates were told they were in Maharaj Ji's debt for the rest of their lives. Here's a variation on the theme:
- The Knowledge session began about noon with an examination of each of the potential premies. Do you really believe Guru Maharaj Ji is the Lord? Do you really want to serve Him and Him alone? Do you have any other gurus? One young man made the mistake of saying that he wanted to receive Knowledge even though he was still a follower of Jesus. "Then get Jesus to give you Knowledge," retorted the mahatma. Asked why she wanted to receive Knowledge, one girl replied innocently enough that she wanted to find God. She was rejected along with nearly half of the others. After a lunch break we settled into the serious business of making contact with the primordial vibrations of the universe. We were instructed to sit up straight, keep our eyes on the mahatma and answer all his questions in loud, clear voices. The first step was for everyone to take all the money out of his pockets, present it at the foot of the altar and express eternal gratitude and devotion to Guru Maharaj Ji. "If all you have is a check, sign it so that it can be cashed," instructed the mahatma. One boy was found to be holding out enough for his bus fare home. "What if Guru Maharaj Ji doesn't want you to go home?" asked the mahatma. [...] He told us to meditate sever hours a day, covering the head for the divine light pa and told us that the first time we saw Guru Maharaj in person we should turn our right ear to him so that he might "blow you a puff of grace." He gave us greeting to be used in addressing other premies an passed out pieces of paper with his name and address. "Send your worldly possessions here," he said. "Do you love Guru Maharaj Ji, or do you love your money?"
- Rawson, Jonathon (November 17, 1973), "God in Houston: The Cult of Guru Maharaji Ji", The New Republic, p. 17
- That doesn't seem consistent with being free. I'm not saying we shouldn't report the claim that it's free, I'm just saying that if we do we also need to report on the actual reality. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:49, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
- Well, I do not know where that reported got that, but the "actual reality" is that techniques are free of charge and have always been free. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:50, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
- The citation information is there. It's not alone - I've seen at least one other source that says a follower was told after the "free" initiation that he was now in debt to Guru Maharaj Ji. We can report both the claims of it being free and the reports of demands of money. Or we can leave them both out. But it wouldn't be NPOV to include only half of the story. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:07, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
- Well, I do not know where that reported got that, but the "actual reality" is that techniques are free of charge and have always been free. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:50, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
- We're talking about official policy not what one Indian mahatma said. Momento (talk) 00:45, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
- That's fine. We might phrase it something like, Officially, there is no charge for receiving Knowledge, but initiates have reported demands for payment. Let me dig up the other source and then we can decide on the exact wording. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:53, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
- Not "payment". There has been, and still is, always a demand for money, and money has never been scorned. But Prem Rawat has sysytematically made it clear that money has nothing to do with the initiation and the practice of Knowledge, and the issue of raising money has been very distinctly and sensibly been seperated from the core issue of spreading Knowledge. In the very early Indian mahatma days of DLM the leading staff obviously was not aware of the touchiness of western society concerning monetary issues, but even then it was clear for every interested person that there was no such thing as payment. Rawat has repeatedly publicly stressed that he personally resisted tendencies in DLM to charge money for the initiation, and he made sure that lack of money never was an obstacle for receiving Knowledge. Otherwise propagation could hardly have been successful in Africa, India, South America. And even in the rich countries a person without money has in no way been discriminated or barred from participating at events. This has been policy for several decades now, and is in fact quite remarkable. There has never been a pretense that money is worthless, when everybody knows it is not. But there was cleary never a sense of payment. Hard to understand for tabloid minds.--Rainer P. (talk) 04:05, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
- I don't have the advantage of personal experience in this field. I only know what I read. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:15, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
- Sure. I'm just trying to help with understanding, can't hurt.--Rainer P. (talk) 07:42, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks for clarifying, Rumiton. The German word in my mind was "Bedarf". I was not aware of the ambiguity of "demand".--Rainer P. (talk) 15:00, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
- Not "payment". There has been, and still is, always a demand for money, and money has never been scorned. But Prem Rawat has sysytematically made it clear that money has nothing to do with the initiation and the practice of Knowledge, and the issue of raising money has been very distinctly and sensibly been seperated from the core issue of spreading Knowledge. In the very early Indian mahatma days of DLM the leading staff obviously was not aware of the touchiness of western society concerning monetary issues, but even then it was clear for every interested person that there was no such thing as payment. Rawat has repeatedly publicly stressed that he personally resisted tendencies in DLM to charge money for the initiation, and he made sure that lack of money never was an obstacle for receiving Knowledge. Otherwise propagation could hardly have been successful in Africa, India, South America. And even in the rich countries a person without money has in no way been discriminated or barred from participating at events. This has been policy for several decades now, and is in fact quite remarkable. There has never been a pretense that money is worthless, when everybody knows it is not. But there was cleary never a sense of payment. Hard to understand for tabloid minds.--Rainer P. (talk) 04:05, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
- That's fine. We might phrase it something like, Officially, there is no charge for receiving Knowledge, but initiates have reported demands for payment. Let me dig up the other source and then we can decide on the exact wording. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:53, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
- We have several sources that say initiates were told they were in Maharaj Ji's debt for the rest of their lives. Here's a variation on the theme:
- Again, what happened in early DLM times, mentioned 30 years later, gives a false impression. What is important is what the general policy has been in the last decades and specially now on the "payment"/donation subject. There may have been some mahatmas in early times that did or said wrong things, at a time when control was rather by Prem's mother, and some mahatmas perhaps brought wrong habits from India. You probably know that Prem has dismissed mahatmas due to wrong behavior, and I am not even sure if some mahatmas were "inherited" from his father's times. Was it easy for a 12 or 13 year old boy to control all that?
- The master is responsible for policies and guidelines, but is it right to blame the master for each action of each mahatma, initiator or follower? One of the ex-premies of the early organization wanted to charge a fee for receiving Knowledge, which of course Prem rejected. He was later dismissed from the organization and decades later still has a website dedicated mainly to denigrate and ridicule Prem's early times. If Prem complied with his view, no university would accept Prem. Please do not ask me names, I have found this information in internet and you may find it too.
- Is it not logical to bring a present to a Satguru at initiation? It would be extremely ungrateful that a present is given to friends and family every birthday, and to the person who gives you the most precious gift, not only of this lifetime, but of all your dozens or hundreds of lifetimes, which is the possibility of liberation from the long imprisonment of the soul in the bodily prison and limitations, you would not give anything.
- You may call it payment or you may call it gift, according to your perception. In my case, in 1974, in London, where I went from the Canary Islands, I was told in Spain to bring a gift, not money, so I gave the gift I had brought, gold-engraved hand-cuffs and a neck-tie clip, which the Mahatma returned to me, they were useless for him or Maharaji (though they could have sold them) as they used oriental clothes, no tie (imagine my ignorance of oriental things at the time, like most western people).
- The mahatma accepted what we had brought (aprox. 15 people for iniciation in the room), some brought gifts, some money and some nothing, and did not check who brought something and who did not, nobody was refused initiation for that (or any other reason in my case), nor have I ever heard of anyone not initiated for lack of gifts or money, nor refused to attend an event for the same reason. I have been attending events for years without doing any regular donation or contribution at all, (apart from the entrance fee to pay the event expenses), nobody ever asked me at the door if I was contributing with anything or not.
- Is it right to bring negative anecdotes from 30 years ago as part of Prem's biography? That is not the story of Prem's life, which does not include all his followers experiences, nor a description of his message, which is the most important thing, but is almost buried under the negative opinions of "experts" (in many different fields that have little to do with yoga, which is the origin of Prem's teachings) and negative anecdotes. Sorry to say, Prem's biography is a disaster.--Pedrero (talk) 02:24, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
- How much are the entrance fees? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 02:39, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
- My highlights . ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:42, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
The cost of producing the Keys is covered by the contributions of people who support Maharaji's efforts to make his message widely available. The preparation process and the session where the techniques are taught are free of charge. Knowledge is a gift from Maharaji. The Keys are distributed around the world by various nonprofit organizations, formal and informal, staffed mainly by volunteers. The Keys are not sold, and neither Maharaji nor the organizations supporting his work receive a financial benefit from their distribution. There is no charge for the Keys or the preparation process. In some areas, a shipping and handling fee and a deposit may apply.[1]
- Is it right to bring negative anecdotes from 30 years ago as part of Prem's biography? That is not the story of Prem's life, which does not include all his followers experiences, nor a description of his message, which is the most important thing, but is almost buried under the negative opinions of "experts" (in many different fields that have little to do with yoga, which is the origin of Prem's teachings) and negative anecdotes. Sorry to say, Prem's biography is a disaster.--Pedrero (talk) 02:24, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
This event is supported by contributions. $90 per person is the average amount needed to cover the anticipated costs. Each person is invited to contribute according to his or her ability. Our combined generosity will make this event successful.[2]
- Perhaps it would be better to say something like, "contributions are requested but not required." ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:00, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
- Any other thoughts? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:26, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
- No other thought than that Knowledge has always been free of charge.Momento (talk) 23:55, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
- So Knowledge is free, but there's a fee for attending the meeting where Knowledge is given? (Waived for those who show financial need?) ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:46, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
Might I try figuring this all out? The lessons are free, though it is expected that donations will be made. Now, are the donations like the Mormon Church, where some set percentage is expected? Like the Protestant tradition of a "weekly offering"? Like the (all too common) Jewish practice of an annual fee for the High Holidays? The televangelist model of "send us all you can spare"? Which model comes closest to the Prem Rawat model? Thanks! Collect (talk) 00:03, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- Everything has always been free - attending the meetings and learning the techniques. In the 70s "Indian" days people often brought gifts like fruit, flowers or something symbolic to the Knowledge session but they were never mandatory or necessary. Some Indian mahatmas may have asked for donations in the early 70s but they were wrong to do so. As Rawat made clear in his first talks in the west "This Knowledge is for you...it has been made absolutely free for you" Westminster Hall 1971. These days receiving Knowledge involves watching the Keys videos. The Keys website says "There is no charge for the Keys videos or for the Knowledge session. The Keys are available on a loan basis. Shipping and handling charges and a deposit may apply. The costs of producing the Keys are met by the voluntary contributions of people who appreciate Maharaji's message. Knowledge is a gift from Maharaji and is offered free of charge".Momento (talk) 02:02, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- Might I get a more realistic answer? Running the organization costs money. What is the mode of raising money? Does it meet any model above? If not, what is the fundraising model? What are the levels of "voluntary contributions" for example? Are they given weekly? Annually? Randomly? And further lessons beyond the Keys? Thanks! Collect (talk) 02:07, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- Here you go: There is no tithe or other similar types of requests; people donate as they do to any other non-profit organizations. You may read http://tprf.org/tprf/annual_report.htm which may clarify this for you. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:05, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- Here you go again: there is no financial statement from Elan Vital anywhere that I can find. The Prem Rawat Foundation financial statement only contains relatively small numbers, not really commensurate with costs of running a jet airplane. Can you post a link to the Elan Vital annual report and, if that too isn't very impressive, the annual report of another Prem Rawat organisation that does contain numbers that make sense? Surely there must be some way to explain how Prem Rawat can be confident that his travel expenses will be met, particularly if, as people here claim that he claims, he never asks people to give him or the organisations whose executive he appoints any money. Matt Stan (talk) 12:14, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
- Am I correct that the average donation for the Foundation is about $750 per annum from the 2,000 donors? Is money donated to other entities as well, or is the Foundation the primary recipient of gifts? Collect (talk) 14:18, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- I have been paying/donating nothing for years, since 2000, I pay 25 euros/month. You give as much as you want whenever you want, you may stop whenever you want and restart whenever you want. From which source is the figure of $750?--Pedrero (talk) 06:16, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
- So there's no entrance fee to any of Rawat's talk? No charge to attend festivals? That's not what our sources say. One, I'd have to go check, says that the number of festivals were increased in order to raise more money, and that followers were pressured to attend. ·:· Will Beback ·:·
- Here you go: There is no tithe or other similar types of requests; people donate as they do to any other non-profit organizations. You may read http://tprf.org/tprf/annual_report.htm which may clarify this for you. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:05, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- Might I get a more realistic answer? Running the organization costs money. What is the mode of raising money? Does it meet any model above? If not, what is the fundraising model? What are the levels of "voluntary contributions" for example? Are they given weekly? Annually? Randomly? And further lessons beyond the Keys? Thanks! Collect (talk) 02:07, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- If the question is "does Rawat charge for Knowledge or speaking engagements?" then Rawat is the obvious one to answer that question and he says he doesn't. I'm sure you can find a source that says he charges but as we know even the most reliable sources can get it wrong and some of the sources we've used get it wrong often.Momento (talk) 10:56, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- Everything has always been free - attending the meetings and learning the techniques. In the 70s "Indian" days people often brought gifts like fruit, flowers or something symbolic to the Knowledge session but they were never mandatory or necessary. Some Indian mahatmas may have asked for donations in the early 70s but they were wrong to do so. As Rawat made clear in his first talks in the west "This Knowledge is for you...it has been made absolutely free for you" Westminster Hall 1971. These days receiving Knowledge involves watching the Keys videos. The Keys website says "There is no charge for the Keys videos or for the Knowledge session. The Keys are available on a loan basis. Shipping and handling charges and a deposit may apply. The costs of producing the Keys are met by the voluntary contributions of people who appreciate Maharaji's message. Knowledge is a gift from Maharaji and is offered free of charge".Momento (talk) 02:02, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- In the 1970s DLM encouraged premies to tithe their incomes and many premies did indeed tithe their incomes in the U.S. The ashrams, of course, tithed its combined income to Prem Rawat and gave another 10% on top of that to DLM. It's ridiculous to say "everything is free of charge." Donations are requested constantly and Elan Vital and TPRF goe out of their way to ask for donations all of the time, including how a premie can make EV or Prem Rawat, the beneficiary of a premie's life insurance policies and their estates upon their deaths. The Gulfstream V jet Rawat uses exclusively isn't paid for by Prem Rawat, so someone is paying for it. And he didn't get wealthy by working. The carrot on the stick in this NRM is that "everything is free." And, of course, no one has to pay to enter a Knowledge Session to get the meditation techniques nor do they pay to watch the 70+ hours of dvds (except for postage and handling) that's required for a newcomer to "prepare" themselves to be considered able to enter that Knowledge Session. Nor do newcomers pay for the facilities that they go to when they "receive" the Knowledge techniques, but somebody is paying for all of those things: those facilities, dvd production, the cost of live programs around the world, Rawat's travel expenses, including the the jet fuel and upkeep and maintenance of the jet, which runs around $300K to $400K per month, etc., etc. Now, whether there are sources that state all of the above is another question, but for anyone to say that no one has to pay anything, is absurd. Gimme a break, "free of charge." :) Sylviecyn (talk) 14:04, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- Do you have any cite for such a jet having such high maintenance charges? Jossi pointed me to the Foundation financial report, but any further cited info would help a lot! Collect (talk) 14:21, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- The plane costs lots, hundreds of thousands of miles per year, and therefore are donations necessary. Since people in poor countrys cannot pay, then people in rich countries pay the travel expenses to poor countries. Prem travelled in regular flights and planes for years, until it was impossible to keep a schedule of over 100 events per year, because there were not enough connections and sometimes there was no plane, so he had to fly from Africa to London to take another plane to another African country. That is why he needs "his" "own" plane which he uses almost exclusively to come and see us so we do not need to go to the US or Europe, as most third world premies cannot afford it. But if anyone likes to think that Prem does all this only for money, why don't you then go and follow someone like Sri Yukteswar and Yogananda? There must be many gurus in India with no wealth, living in the jungle or in the Himalayas with a few followers. They are also critized for not going out to the world, or to the west, and help a world in growing pyschological collapse, and now also in material collapse (perhaps as a consequence). Who is not criticized? If you want to beat someone you will always find a stick.
- Some people are just addicted to critic and negative thoughts like others to anything else. A Spanish saying says "piensa el ladrón que todos son de su condición", a thief thinks everyone is like him. All the intellectuals, including ministers, who go to his speeches in famous universities are not stupid. Nor his followers, who in the seventies were considered the crazy followers of a crazy guru by the "mainstream media", so avid for truth as we have seen recently in the US. Someone is mentioning an article by Time magazine. Would you consider that Time is independent media? May be it is for most Americans but not for most Europeans. Now those arguments of the seventies are lost in time, even if you can still read them in ex-premies websites, obsessed with the seventies, as their mind stopped there and does not want to know that we are in 2008, just like Prem's biography, that some want to make another ex-premies website.--Pedrero (talk) 09:01, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
- Any comments in this section are addressing the issue brought up in the opening comment which was "If we're going to cite sources saying that the initiation is free of charge then we also need to include the sources that say initiates are expected to pay for having received the Knowledge. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 03:33, 3 November 2008 (UTC) And as you, SylvieCyn confirm "of course, no one has to pay to enter a Knowledge Session to get the meditation techniques nor do they pay to watch the 70+ hours of dvds (except for postage and handling) that's required for a newcomer to "prepare" themselves to be considered able to enter that Knowledge Session. Nor do newcomers pay for the facilities that they go to when they "receive" the Knowledge techniques", So yes, "Everything (regarding receiving Knowledge) has always been free - attending the meetings and learning the techniques". But many people support making this gift available to others and contribute time and money to do so. Just like people support the Red Cross that is a multi million dollar enterprise with cars and planes and buildings and paid staff. No one makes them, they want to help.Momento (talk) 18:49, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- Your comparison of anything Rawat-related to The Red Cross is specious, misleading, and false. It's tantamount to Jossi's comparison of "Millennium '73" to the bombing of Pearl Harbor which was a grandiose comparison. Elan Vital, The Prem Rawat Foundation, and Prem Rawat are in no way "like" the Red Cross. You're misleading people by saying that, you know you're misleading people, and you ought to stop doing it. The fact is that the Red Cross isn't an NRM or a cult, it doesn't keep it's fundraising secret from the public, it never conceals its fundraising efforts by keeping them private from some contributors, as in Rawat-related organization's practices of holding secret meetings with wealthy, major donors.
- Any comments in this section are addressing the issue brought up in the opening comment which was "If we're going to cite sources saying that the initiation is free of charge then we also need to include the sources that say initiates are expected to pay for having received the Knowledge. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 03:33, 3 November 2008 (UTC) And as you, SylvieCyn confirm "of course, no one has to pay to enter a Knowledge Session to get the meditation techniques nor do they pay to watch the 70+ hours of dvds (except for postage and handling) that's required for a newcomer to "prepare" themselves to be considered able to enter that Knowledge Session. Nor do newcomers pay for the facilities that they go to when they "receive" the Knowledge techniques", So yes, "Everything (regarding receiving Knowledge) has always been free - attending the meetings and learning the techniques". But many people support making this gift available to others and contribute time and money to do so. Just like people support the Red Cross that is a multi million dollar enterprise with cars and planes and buildings and paid staff. No one makes them, they want to help.Momento (talk) 18:49, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- Furthermore, The Red Cross doesn't have a spiritual leader, titular or otherwise, therefore it never holds private programs on private "charity" held land where darshan lines are conducted so Red Cross contributors can line up to kiss the feet of its spiritual Master, while handing over envelopes filled with undocumented cash. The Red Cross doesn't conduct secret initiation sessions for people, like Elan Vital does (which the Knowledge sessions surely are), there are no requireiments of members or donors to make promises to keep secrets in the Red Cross, as Elan Vital and Prem Rawat asks of its initiates, and there are no requirements when one contributes to the Red Cross, that donors devote themselves to an individual Avatar, Messiah-figure, as Prem Rawat surely is. So please stop talking to people here as if they are morons, Momento. Divine Light Mission/Elan Vital and TPRF don't hold a candle to any legitimate charity organizations that have decades-long legitimacy and a legitimate focus on helping people (for the sake of helping people, not enriching a leader or CEO). The fact is that anyone who becomes a follower of Prem Rawat is strongly pressured to donate money, with urgency to do so applied. And anyone who denies that fact is a baldfaced liar. Sylviecyn (talk) 22:29, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- I fear this sort of message is getting far afield of the purpose of a talk page. This is a biography of a living person. The article has many faults, to be sure, and needs much work, but argumentation is not going to help much. I know religion and politics always arouse strong feelings, but can we possibly remove feelings from this article so that it fairly represents Rawat's life? That is why I wanted to know precisely the model for financing (which I am still not sure about) and the like. Calling people liar or the like, by the way, rarely makes them disposed to reach compromise in the goal of improving the article. Thanks! Collect (talk) 01:47, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- You're right. But you know what? I've had it with Wikipedia's idiotic rules and guidelines when they are rewritten to promote a destructive personality cult which is what Prem Rawat is all about. I've also had it with Wikipedia's inability to recognize a COI when it's staring them in the eyes ... [refactored]
- I fear this sort of message is getting far afield of the purpose of a talk page. This is a biography of a living person. The article has many faults, to be sure, and needs much work, but argumentation is not going to help much. I know religion and politics always arouse strong feelings, but can we possibly remove feelings from this article so that it fairly represents Rawat's life? That is why I wanted to know precisely the model for financing (which I am still not sure about) and the like. Calling people liar or the like, by the way, rarely makes them disposed to reach compromise in the goal of improving the article. Thanks! Collect (talk) 01:47, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- Furthermore, The Red Cross doesn't have a spiritual leader, titular or otherwise, therefore it never holds private programs on private "charity" held land where darshan lines are conducted so Red Cross contributors can line up to kiss the feet of its spiritual Master, while handing over envelopes filled with undocumented cash. The Red Cross doesn't conduct secret initiation sessions for people, like Elan Vital does (which the Knowledge sessions surely are), there are no requireiments of members or donors to make promises to keep secrets in the Red Cross, as Elan Vital and Prem Rawat asks of its initiates, and there are no requirements when one contributes to the Red Cross, that donors devote themselves to an individual Avatar, Messiah-figure, as Prem Rawat surely is. So please stop talking to people here as if they are morons, Momento. Divine Light Mission/Elan Vital and TPRF don't hold a candle to any legitimate charity organizations that have decades-long legitimacy and a legitimate focus on helping people (for the sake of helping people, not enriching a leader or CEO). The fact is that anyone who becomes a follower of Prem Rawat is strongly pressured to donate money, with urgency to do so applied. And anyone who denies that fact is a baldfaced liar. Sylviecyn (talk) 22:29, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- Have you taken the time to read all of the archives of all of the Rawat articles and their talk pages? You really need to do that before you insert yourself here because this is a series of extremely contentious articles that are filled with controversy and a helluva lot of craziness courtesy of the Rawat adherents. You also need to get hold of the informal Mediation pages (there are many, Will may be able to hook you up) and their associated talk pages, as well as the ARBCOM request/decision/talk pages and their many associated talk and draft pages, before you jump in here. Then there are the many requests for comments, and requests for comments on reliable sources and those associated talk pages. Five years worth. This isn't a simple bio article about a "living person" on Wikipedia.
- I'm not trying to be rude or contrary, but the fact is that when someone makes comments like Momento and Jossi have done in the past few days about Rawat's path of practicing Knowlege being free of charge, I just refuse to stand by and let [it] go unchallenged. Frankly, I don't care if it doesn't foster good relations with them. I wish you well and good luck, Collect, as well as happy reading and best wishes to you too. Please notice that I don't edit the main pages, even though I don't have a real COI as Jossi and Momento here do have. I restrain myself from doing that on purpose becasue I've been accused of having a COI and nefarious motives here, which are also all lies. I merely make comments when the truth is stretched to such a degree that it becomes intolerable. You really need to read up on this and get up to speed. Sylviecyn (talk) 03:23, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- Let's remain calm, everybody. This is obviously a can of worms. It gets into the subject's sources of income, I suggest we go with something simple, like, "Rawat does not charge money for initiating students into Knowledge, but students are encouraged to give donations." ·:· Will Beback ·:· 07:40, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- Still creates a misleading impression. It insinuates money does play a role in receiving and practicing Knowledge, even if only in a covert manner. Rawat goes to great lengths to systematically avoid the impression of any connotation between Knowledge and money. And people who are interested in the Knowledge are actually as a rule never even only “encouraged” to give money, not even in an indirect way. People donate, to keep it like this. If aspirants happen to be willing to donate, they probably won’t be rejected, as that would be neurotic. If they are satisfied with the experience of Knowledge and wish to contribute, that’s o.k. Of course money is always needed for keeping the activities of the organisation going. But Rawat and EV are really very sensitive about this issue, and that is in itself quite noteworthy and should not be overlooked deliberately. Rawat does not live from donations. Different statements are merely based on assumptions.--Rainer P. (talk) 11:41, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- The source says "Each person is invited to contribute..." So whether we say students are encouraged to donate or are invited to donate the meaning is the same. The source makes it clear that Rawat doesn't wait for people to donate whatever sum strikes their fancy - a specific sum is suggested. I think the proposal I put forth is simple and avoids getting into detail either about the finances of EV or Prem Rawat. It's sourced directly from EV. Can you suggest better text that includes the fact that donations are invited? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 17:12, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- Still creates a misleading impression. It insinuates money does play a role in receiving and practicing Knowledge, even if only in a covert manner. Rawat goes to great lengths to systematically avoid the impression of any connotation between Knowledge and money. And people who are interested in the Knowledge are actually as a rule never even only “encouraged” to give money, not even in an indirect way. People donate, to keep it like this. If aspirants happen to be willing to donate, they probably won’t be rejected, as that would be neurotic. If they are satisfied with the experience of Knowledge and wish to contribute, that’s o.k. Of course money is always needed for keeping the activities of the organisation going. But Rawat and EV are really very sensitive about this issue, and that is in itself quite noteworthy and should not be overlooked deliberately. Rawat does not live from donations. Different statements are merely based on assumptions.--Rainer P. (talk) 11:41, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- No. It would be more accurate to say "Rawat personally has never asked for donations but senior members ask for donations to cover expenses of Prem's travels, national and local organizations, events, etc. and to compensate for poor countries that cannot pay all the costs involved in the organizations and events. In Europe the cost of an average event with 3.000 persons is about $90 which may be paid in advance through Internet or at the entrance, and persons with special economic difficulties may ask for free entrance". That would be in my opinion something reflecting the truth. Prem has to fly sometimes for many hours 10 or 12, and then go to an event, then back to the hotel, sleep, in the morning back to the plane more hours, then another event, usually each tour including 5 o 6 countries, etc. He could hire a pilot, but flying himself has saved the organizations the salary of a pilot for many years. These are the things people do not like to see. We see what we want to see.--Pedrero (talk) 07:32, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
- What EV says and what Rawat says are two different things. You can put it in the EV article.Momento (talk) 18:27, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- Agreed. This is about Rawat, what he did and what he said.Momento (talk) 19:23, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- I'd be fine with moving the whole topic of Knowledge being free and donations being invited to the EV article. But we can't include just half of the matter in this article. If Rawat and EV disagree on whether to collect donations for his appearances then that's also a worthwhile topic, though I haven't seen any sources to document this supposed disagreement. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:34, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- The page that Will linked to relates to an official event where Rawat gave Knowledge, does it not? If so, then I don't think we can honestly say that this is nothing to do with Rawat, or with Knowledge being free. That said, I would rather have a secondary source commenting on this matter than extrapolating from this primary source. Failing that, and pending verification that this cost structure is typical at Knowledge-giving events, we could say that "participants are encouraged to contribute a specified amount to the cost of events where Knowledge is given." Jayen466 19:54, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- Jayen: That event was not an event in which "Knowledge was given". It was an event to which PR was invited to speak at. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:21, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- I think I see your point clearly. What was the nature of his speech? Collect (talk) 20:30, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- (e/c, reply to Jossi:) Ah, you're right. My reading skills were off. Not the same thing. Cheers, Jayen466 20:32, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- Does Jossi or anyone have links to notices of events at which "Knowledge is given" that clearly indicate the events are free and that donations are neither invited nor encouraged? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:10, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- Jayen: That event was not an event in which "Knowledge was given". It was an event to which PR was invited to speak at. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:21, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- That doesn't really answer the question of whether donations are solicited. It does say:
- When you have watched Keys #1 through #5 and are clear that you would like to be taught the techniques of Knowledge, you may send a request to Maharaji. Key Six is shown during a special session in which Maharaji teaches the techniques of Knowledge via a video presentation. Such sessions take place throughout the year all over the world.... There is no charge for The Keys or the preparation.
- What we're looking for is a description of one of these events that makes it clear that donations aren't invited or encouraged, as they are at personal appearances by Rawat. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:34, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- That doesn't really answer the question of whether donations are solicited. It does say:
- No Will, what you should be looking for is a source which provides a "description of one of these events that makes it clear that donations ARE invited or encouraged" but there isn't one. PS. I'm looking for a source that says "Wikipedia isn't responsible for World War II. Does anyone have one?Momento (talk) 21:43, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- Does anyone have a link to an announcement for one of these events? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:45, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- There is no such a thing as an "announcement" that I am aware. When you prepare via the Keys, on Key 5 you get a form to ask for Knowledge and in response you get an invitation to attend a session in your locality. See How do I ask for Knowledge?, and Is there a charge for viewing the Keys and receiving Knowledge? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:24, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- May we see what an invitation looks like? So far I haven't seen anything that would indicate this language is incorrect: "Rawat does not charge money for initiating students into Knowledge, but students are encouraged to give donations." ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:42, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- Why is that you are doubting what it says in these web pages? For your information, no donations are requested for attending a Key Six session, in fact it is much simpler than you think: you get the invitation with a list of locations and dates, and you show up on that day at the time established. You even get some refreshments mid-way through the session which are provided by local volunteers, also at no charge. There is not much to it, really, and I do not know why are you and others making such a big deal of it, unless you have been reading too much into dubious sources. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:52, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- Which sources are dubious? Can you show us one of these invitations? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:58, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- Whichever sources are you using to make that assertion. Even if I can get hold of an invitation letter, how would we be able to use it in WP? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:05, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- This discussion is quite surreal. Jossi, Momento, Rumiton, and every other follower of Rawat who is/was on their local/national communities' mailing list knows that there has been a constant stream of requests for donations from Elan Vital/Divine Light Mission/TPRF. There was a time when Rawat's personal address was publicised at official Elan Vital events for people to send him donations. It is one thing for Jossi, Momento, et al to argue that there are no usable sources for these facts, but for them to claim that such requests for money have not been a constant part of Rawat's movement brings their good faith into serious question. --John Brauns (talk) 00:27, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- Why is that you are doubting what it says in these web pages? For your information, no donations are requested for attending a Key Six session, in fact it is much simpler than you think: you get the invitation with a list of locations and dates, and you show up on that day at the time established. You even get some refreshments mid-way through the session which are provided by local volunteers, also at no charge. There is not much to it, really, and I do not know why are you and others making such a big deal of it, unless you have been reading too much into dubious sources. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:52, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- May we see what an invitation looks like? So far I haven't seen anything that would indicate this language is incorrect: "Rawat does not charge money for initiating students into Knowledge, but students are encouraged to give donations." ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:42, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- There is no such a thing as an "announcement" that I am aware. When you prepare via the Keys, on Key 5 you get a form to ask for Knowledge and in response you get an invitation to attend a session in your locality. See How do I ask for Knowledge?, and Is there a charge for viewing the Keys and receiving Knowledge? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:24, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- Well, we have New Republic quoting mahatma telling initiates to empty their wallets (see above). We have Richardson talking about the financing of new religions:
- Messer (1976) goes into some detail about DLM finances, and her findings are substantiated by Pilarzyk (1978a) and Stoner and Parke (1977). Messer notes that the DLM receives many large donations from members and outsiders, but most funding comes from more regular smaller donations by communal members who work outside the ashrams (communes) or who live noncommunally and work at outside jobs of one type or another. Funds are also received from service-like businesses (such as janitorial services) operated by individual ashrams, but these usually are not large moneymakers. The only public solicitation used by the DLM seems to be asking merchants or other people for old possessions to sell in rummage sales and small secondhand stores. A DLM former member in the Netherlands claimed that the group there gathered and sold over five hundred thousand dollars worth of such goods in their most fruitful year.5 A high-level decision was made by DLM leadership in America several years ago to sponsor more festivals, because the festivals, which are major ritual events for members of the DLM, are money-making events. The participants, most of whom are members, must pay sizeable amounts of money (fifty to one hundred dollars) to participate, and sometimes the festivals attract thousands of followers. Also, the devotees in festivals take part in the ritual of darshan, which involves offering goods or money during the time of the festival when they receive a personal blessing from the guru. Large offerings are sometimes received, which adds to the financial attractiveness of the festivals.
- Are these dubious sources? As for the invitation, it might help clear this up. So far we have notices saying that students are invited to donate, which is what I'm suggesting we add to the article. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:21, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- The first source is from 35 years ago, and refers to a "mahatma" and not to PR, and the Messer source is from 32 years ago, which does not refer to the subject at hand. So, may you consider that things have evolved since the crazy 70's? As for the letter, I have seen such letters and as I said, it simply states the location, date and time for the session, and there are no requests or other type of solicitations. Maybe this is way too honorable for the perspective you have developed on the subject, but it is that plain and simple: there is no requests for donations, solicitations or any other such actions as it pertains to preparing for Knowledge and receiving it. It s a gift, as stated in the official Website. So, why don't you use the source that says just that? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:31, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- (e/c) Not dubious, but quite old. From what I read, the Knowledge session today is a DVD presentation, and it's free, just like the other Keys. In the session, people are asked to keep in touch, i.e. to attend events where Maharaji speaks: at those, as we've seen, they are asked to contribute, if they can, to the cost of the event. I don't see anything particularly suspicious in that. Zillions of churches ask for similar, sometimes greater commitments. Some premies get together and fund outreach efforts to make equipment available so that Key Six presentations can happen in less well-off countries. Again, that's a humanitarian effort if you believe in what you're doing, so the comparison to the Red Cross is not entirely misplaced. If you're an ideologically opposed outsider, you'd call it a missionary effort. But again, many religions engage in those. At least, here people are given a tool to work with themselves, while other missionaries may tell you that you are saved simply by converting (or may tell you that you will burn in some kind of hell if you don't convert). Just musing. I think we should abandon this OR effort. Jayen466 00:35, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- Quite right. See:
Is there a requirement to join something or contribute financially? No, there is nothing to join and no obligation to contribute financially either during the preparation process or after a person receives these techniques. There are registration fees to attend some of the larger events, but both the fee and attendance are voluntary. Donations are sometimes requested at local events to help cover such costs as meeting room space or audiovisual equipment, but giving is always a matter of voluntary choice. Admission is never denied because of inability to contribute. [3]
- ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:45, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- [E/C] Many sources for this article are old because the article deals with someone who has been around for decades. If this article was title "Prem Rawat since 2001" then we wouldn't need to use any of them. His mahatmas may have demanded money in the 1970s and no longer demanded money in the 1980s. Fine, we can say that if we have sources for it. If we're going to include the assertion that there is no charge for Knowledge then we also need to mention that sources dispute that assertion. Otherwise we'd give readers with a one-sided view of the matter, and that would violate NPOV. Anyway, the assertion has been removed from the article. Unless someone wants to add it back I'm happy to drop this. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:47, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- There is no "one-side view of the matter, if we simply attribute the assertion to the sources, as we have done with other material. The fact was and remains that Knowledge has always been given free of charge, even at the time of Swarupanand or even before that. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:51, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
According to yoga initiation has always been free for thousands of years. But since masters do not work, or at least most of them, followers always helped with money, Prem's father always gave free lodgning and meals to people in his house. Money cannot come from heaven literally.--Pedrero (talk) 06:16, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
- Tell that to Rawson, who was told to take all of the money out of his pockets and place it before the photo of the subject, and who was asked "Do you love Guru Maharaj Ji, or do you love your money?" Clearly, initiates have been asked for money. Again, I think we should just leave out this disputed matter unless we want to give a full discussion of it that includes all significant points of view. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:57, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- Is that a "significant point of view"? I doubt it, and even if you can make a case for being significant which I seriouls doubt, in reading that piece one can see what Rawson's intention was. Unless you are unable to see that, in which case there is no much more to dicuss here. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:04, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- If no one is planning to add back the assertion then there's nothing further to discus. If an editor intends to do that then we need to resolve this. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:09, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- Is that a "significant point of view"? I doubt it, and even if you can make a case for being significant which I seriouls doubt, in reading that piece one can see what Rawson's intention was. Unless you are unable to see that, in which case there is no much more to dicuss here. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:04, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- Tell that to Rawson, who was told to take all of the money out of his pockets and place it before the photo of the subject, and who was asked "Do you love Guru Maharaj Ji, or do you love your money?" Clearly, initiates have been asked for money. Again, I think we should just leave out this disputed matter unless we want to give a full discussion of it that includes all significant points of view. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:57, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- It's back.Momento (talk) 01:33, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- That wasn't helpful. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:42, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- I thought some one might have removed the section "taught free of charge" but I was amazed to see the whole section was removed. What is a guru without a teaching?Momento (talk) 01:50, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- Is the subject still a guru? Anyway, since the "free of charge" assertion is back I'll add the "donations are encouraged" view as well. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 02:09, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- If Rawat says Knowledge is free, it should be in this article. And if he has asked for donations, it should be in too. But whatever mahatma, premie or organization has said should be in their article, not this. Simple.Momento (talk) 02:36, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- If we didn't mention anything about the subject's following, that might make sense. But the subject does have followers who are reportedly asked to donate money. The mere fact that those requests come from people beside the subject doesn't that money isn't being requested. If I go to a concert it isn't the performer who collects the money: it's the fellow at the ticket counter. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 03:14, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- If the performer says it's a free concert and thousands of people get in for free but some one says you need to buy a ticket, you cannot say the performer is asking for money or that money is being asked for on his behalf. Fakiranand attacked Halley despite Rawat saying "I don't want him arrested or harmed". We have a premie saying "Venusians are coming to Millennium", and we don't say Rawat made the claim. This article is about what Rawat did and said, not any one or two of his millions of followers.Momento (talk) 03:41, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- Will, do not keep adding non Rawat material to this article.Momento (talk) 03:57, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- The things that are said by Rawat's senior aids on his behalf, by the TPRF, are indeed relevant. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:41, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- Your assumption that they are said on his behalf is OR. But just so you know "There is no commitment expected of those not living in the ashram to contribute to the guru, Mishler added, although many do".(Sat, Aug. 19, 1972 GREELEY (Colo.) TRIBUNE 21)Momento (talk) 05:34, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- I can find more sources. Please stop reverting this, or just leave it out entirely. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:45, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- Just one source of Rawat saying "Knowledge is free but I encourage you to donate" will do. Here's the first half, Rawat says "Knowledge has been made absolutely free for you" WIGM p229. Now you provide the quote that says "but I encourage you to give donations (for it).Momento (talk) 05:59, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- It is wrong to say that Prem encourages us to donate. Prem never asked for money. His followers did. Of course people are asked to donate, because many times expenses were and are higher than donations, specially in poor countries. Prem travels to his followers doing 200/300 thousand miles per year. Concerning the figure of $750 per follower/year, I want to know where it comes from, or is it another rumor?. Do you think people can pay $750 per year in poor countries? Or is that the average and to compensate for poor people/countries who give little or nothing the figure for US and Europe should rise to thousans of $ per year? If someone says I have heard/read that each member is asked to pay (or is paying without being asked) $x thousand/year is that fair to make it part of Prem's biography though no one can quote him saying anything like that? There are hundreds, perhaps thousands of hours of his speeches along more than four decades on print, audio and video. When did he ever ask for money? Please.--Pedrero (talk) 06:16, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
- Please provide another source for "Knowledge has been made absolutely free for you": WIGM can only be used for non-controversial statements in this context; the assertion of Knowledge being free is controversial: third-party journalists tell a different story.
- The same goes for thekeys.maharaji.net, a promotional website, currently used as a reference for the "free of charge" material in the intro of the Rawat article. --Francis Schonken (talk) 06:17, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- Nothing controversial about it. And WIGM is independently published and a reliable source for anything.Momento (talk) 06:32, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- So are you saying that a 1973 book is acceptable but a 1973 magazine is too old? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:35, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- Nothing controversial about it. And WIGM is independently published and a reliable source for anything.Momento (talk) 06:32, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- I'm not saying that Will. Be careful.Momento (talk) 07:04, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- You're right, it was Jayen who discussed old sources. So I gather you don't agree with his point. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 07:18, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
Sources
- In the first years of the twentieth-first century, Prem Rawat once again began a process of deconstruction, dismantling the overhierarchical structures of the organisation, leaving it toothless except as a vehicle for dealing with official bodies such as hiring of halls, legal frameworks, health and safety issues, rights of volunteers, and the financial management of donations to support the promotion of the teachings.
- Geaves, (2006) Globalisation, charisma, innovation, and tradition:
- Elan Vital was organized, wherever possible, as an educational charity or trust responsible for promoting Maharaji's teachings. Its main activity was the dissemination of Maharaji's message through the organization of various types of events, including national and international venues where Maharaji spoke in person, and smaller, local venues where his discourses were presented by video. It was also involved in sustaining the necessary financial base through donations to make these activities possible.
- Geaves, 2004
- It is not clear whether it is possible to receive Knowledge from anyone other than Maharaji. He claims only to encourage people to 'experience the present reality of life now. Leaving his more ascetic life behind him, he does not personally eschew material possessions. Over time, critics have focused on what appears to be his opulent lifestyle and argue that it is supported largely by the donations of his followers. However, deliberately keeping a low profile has meant that the movement has generally managed to escape the gaze of publicity that surrounds other NRMs.
- Hunt, 2003
- Therefore, an attempt was made to broaden financial support in the U.S. through the formation and coordination of Divine Information Centers (DIC) and the institution of a movement-wide plea to all members for donations. The donational "decree" subsequently became reinterpreted by the hierarchy as a "regular contribution" from all premies on a weekly or monthly basis. These new sources of financial support were expected to guarantee an increased effectiveness of planning for the organization, including a trend toward computerized finances.
- Pilarzyk, 1978
- As devotees moved out of ashrams, their weekly paychecks, previously turned over to the guru's treasury, were missed. Donations fell from more than $100,000 a month to 70 per cent of that, although Anctil said 3,000 regular donors remain.
- Espo, David (November 26,1976), "Followers Fewer, Church Retrenching for Maharaj Ji", The Charleston Gazette: 8C
- Even Guru Ma ha raj Ji, 17, Perfect Master of the Divine Light Mission and well-known lover of sports cars, cabin cruisers and good living, may soon face some economic problems. At least he will if a British Columbia court believes Michael Garson, 35, the guru's former financial analyst. Garson claims that the mission has been more than $240,000 in debt for over a year and its donations declining. He testified as a witness in a case seeking to prevent U.S. Heiress Darby McNeal, 31, now a British Columbia resident, from signing over an estimated $400,000 inheritance to the Divine Light Mission. Each week about $35,000 in donations and income flow into the mission's Denver headquarters, said Garson, and "approximately 60% of the gross receipts are directed to maintain the life-style of the Maharaj Ji and those close to him. So far as I could see, the whole function of the organization was to provide an opulent existence for the Maharaj Ji."
- TIME, Apr. 07, 1975 [2]
- In theory, all funds on which the Mission runs are donations, which come from a number of sources:
- 2. All devotees are encouraged and nagged to donate funds of their own. They are also encouraged, on rare occasion, to solicit funds from nonmembers. Some devotees have signed pledges to donate a dollar a day to provide the Mission with some reliable income.
- 3. Premie Centers turn over 30 percent of their household income to the Mission. This provides the Mission with a regular income, the ugh centers are not yet numerous.
- 4. Periodic crises require fund raising across the country. To pay the debts remaining from the Houston event, devotees all over the country turned over their own possessions to Divine Sales, which had crash garage sales, attended flea markets, and invented numerous activities to dispose of the goods.
- Messer, 1974
I have never heard the 30 % figure and I am a follower since 1974, 34 years now. I had only heard the 10% which is traditional in many religions for thousands of years. It was one of the "Church Commandments" I learned as a Catholic child, and it is also so in other religions. But I heard this once or twice in the seventies, never again: You are asked to give if you can and want. And the same for events. I go if I can, and if I can't, I don't go. I do not feel obliged to go to any event, I go because I like it. Just like people go to music festivals to see pop stars. Simple. I heard a mahatma say in a speech: "You only have to do reasonable efforts to go to an event, you do not need to sell your child". And if you do not want to pay anything nobody can force you, and this will not prevent you from attending events, so please stop trying to convince people of anyone doing extorsion or forcing us to pay: I have never heard that, and I have been within for 34 years, and people who are outside know better than me? Please. If someone says in a web site that we have been threated and beaten like Jim Jones' followers than that is true? Please. I have seen a website saying that Prem smokes, is an alcoholic, and has affairs with women. Why do people say things like that? Well, good question.--Pedrero (talk) 07:32, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
Discussion
- Excellent sources Will. But none have Rawat saying "Knowledge is free but I encourage you to make donations". Everybody knows devotees contributed to support the Mission and spread the teachings, you can put these in the DLM EV articles.Momento (talk) 07:03, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- This article discusses followers. Should we move that entire discussion to the DLM/EV articles too? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 07:16, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- You need to understand the difference between what Rawat says and what others say. And the difference between providing information and Knowledge free to new people and the supporting and funding of those activities by people who already have Knowledge and want to see it spread. Perhaps a less taxing example will help. A man provides free food for people made homeless after a disaster. After a while some of the people who received the free food recognise its value and start working with the man to spread the free food system. As a result of their efforts more free food is made available. The food is always free for those who need it but the energy and money needed to expand it is donated by those who see the value of it. You cannot say the food isn't free just because some of the people who received it contribute to the service, voluntarily at a later date.Momento (talk) 07:33, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- I don't find this matter taxing, though it's kind of you to be concerned. Regarding your first point, the subject was head of an organization. No one here disputes that. No one has presented any sources saying that the subject didn't want his followers nagged to make donations, or that he discouraged his mahatmas from demanding money before initiations, or that he didn't want his followers to buy him new jet planes, or to pay for the planes' operating expenses. If you have those sources please provide them. From what I've read, a closer analogy would be to a restaurant offering free food, but after the meal diners are told they are now indebted to the chef for the rest of their lives. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 07:56, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- So much OR. And now you're turning Wiki policy on its head. No longer do we have to supply sources to verify claims, we have to find sources to dispute unverified claims. And you still can't tell the difference between offering Knowledge for free and people donating money so that it can be offered for free. As for our restaurant, we have 10s of 1000s fed for free and one mahatma saying "now your indebted to the chef for the rest of their lives". No wonder Rawat sent them all packing.Momento (talk) 08:21, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- What claim is unverified? That followers were asked for donations by the people in Rawat's organizations? See above - that assertion is indeed verifiable. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 08:31, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- Excellent sources Will. But none have Rawat saying "Knowledge is free but I encourage you to make donations". Everybody knows devotees contributed to support the Mission and spread the teachings, you can put these in the DLM EV articles.Momento (talk) 07:03, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- Is everyone happy with the version as it stands now? We have: "According to publications by Rawat's organizations he does not charge money for initiating students into Knowledge.[146][147] Students are however encouraged to give donations.[148][149]"
- I thought we could use Jossi's primary source making reference to optional registration fees at speaking events, and voluntary donations being invited at other times, but if everyone is happy as is I can live with that too. Jayen466 15:00, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- The problem is the second unverified claim that "According to publications by Rawat's organizations he does not charge money for initiating students into Knowledge. Students are however encouraged to give donations." Since the "encourager" is not separately identified and the article is about Rawat the structure suggests that the person who (Rawat) does not charge money for initiating students into Knowledge" is the same person who does "however encourage (students) to give donations". The sources supplied have the organizations not Rawat encouraging people to give donations. I have therefore made it clear that Rawat does not charge but the organizations are supported by volunteers and donations.Momento (talk) 18:09, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- How about, ""According to publications by Rawat's organizations he does not charge money for initiating students into Knowledge,[146][147] though the organizations encourage students to give donations.[148][149]" That indicates who is doing the encouraging. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:28, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- It's fine as is. We don't need to qualify who says what Rawat does. And it is sufficient to say how the organizations operate which includes volunteers.Momento (talk) 20:40, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- OK, then how's this, "Rawat says he does not charge money for initiating students into Knowledge,[146][147] though his organizations encourage students to give donations.[148][149]"? That eliminates the unnecessary attribution. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:43, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- The current version, which Momento just wrote, says he doesn't charge for talk, which is misleading since an expected donation. And "organizations that support his work" is unnecessarily elliptical. We can just call them "his organizations". ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:46, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- It isn't misleading. He doesn't charge and he doesn't expect a donation. The organizations may suggest a donation from people who have Knowledge to cover the cost of an event but non members are not asked for a donation. And they aren't "his" organizations they're "organizations that support his work".Momento (talk) 21:01, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- The source doesn't say that only initiated followers are asked for donations. "This event is supported by contributions. $90 per person is the average amount needed to cover the anticipated costs. Each person is invited to contribute according to his or her ability." I'm not quite sure why you say they aren't "his organizations". We say that he founded the TPRF. Is that incorrect? Is he not the spiritual leader of the EV? I believe it says so on the articles of incorporation, IIRC. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:11, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- The problem is the second unverified claim that "According to publications by Rawat's organizations he does not charge money for initiating students into Knowledge. Students are however encouraged to give donations." Since the "encourager" is not separately identified and the article is about Rawat the structure suggests that the person who (Rawat) does not charge money for initiating students into Knowledge" is the same person who does "however encourage (students) to give donations". The sources supplied have the organizations not Rawat encouraging people to give donations. I have therefore made it clear that Rawat does not charge but the organizations are supported by volunteers and donations.Momento (talk) 18:09, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- I've edited it to read, "Rawat does not charge for initiating students into Knowledge. His organizations solicit donations from students to support his work." The line about not charging for talks is misleading since donations are requested, and saying his organizations are supported by volunteers implies that it is a volunteer organization without paid staff. I'm not sure what the source is for volunteers anyway. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:40, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- You're too U.S. centric Will. There are dozens of organizations around the world who spread Rawat's message which have no legal or organizational links to Rawat and are run entirely by volunteers. But rather than find sources I'm changing the second sentence to mirror the lead "Organizations that assist in spreading his message are supported by donations".Momento (talk) 22:00, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- I only know what I read. I haven't read anything about these all-volunteer organizations. You left off the "solicited from students" part, which is sourced. I've added it back. In its current form, I think this is acceptable. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:12, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- I thought we had a consensus, but Momento keeps changing it. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 08:51, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- Keep the source Will and you'll have less trouble. It isn't only students who support the organizations, there's doctors and mothers and little old ladies. In other words, all sorts of people who appreciate his message. Just like the source says.Momento (talk) 08:55, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- What do you mean that it isn't "only students who support the organizations"? Are you asserting that non-students/followers/initiates/premies are significant contributors? I've never heard that before. As for the sources, yes, let's stay close. Messer says that "All devotees are encouraged and nagged to donate funds of their own." I've tried "encouraged to donate", and you didn't like that. I tried "solicited donations" and you reverted that repeatedly. How about "According to one member, followers are nagged to donate funds of their own." Is that close enough to the source for you? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 09:18, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- LOL. :-)) But then that source is 35 years old.
- Jossi has taken "solicited" out again. [3] Is that section fine now as it stands? Or should we agree to some compromise such as "Related organizations that support the dissemination of Rawat's message invite contributions from students and are funded by donations." --? Jayen466 19:24, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- I've compromised every which way on this, and still it gets deleted. So I'm going to add the text above. It's sourced, neutral, and goes to the issue of how donations were obtained. If anyone has a contrary source saying that followers aren't nagged then they're welcome to add that too. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:56, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
- Once again, Momento deleted the sourced material. He copied a small portion to the DLM article. In order to maintain NPOV, I've copied the rest of what I added along with the claims of the teachings being free. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:53, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
- It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to copy this to DLM, given that it's talking about the Keys and the present time. And FWIW, what you added about the nagging, while not without its comic effect, does not belong into a "Teaching" section IMO. I think I'll go to bed now and come back another day when it's slightly less hot in the kitchen. Suggest everyone take it easy. Cheers, Jayen466 02:08, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
- My only request here, is that if we're going to say that "Knowledge is free" that we also say that "donations are encouraged" at the same time. That is an extremely mild statement. We have plenty of sources for the fact that Rawat's early followers were strongly encouraged to donate large sums of money, indeed their entire inheritances, with the implicit agreement that entry into an ashram was akin to entry into a convent - a lifetime commitment. Then, after giving everything they had, that commitment was unilaterally ended by Rawat when he closed the ashrams a few years later after collecting (and spending) millions of dollars in donations. This is all material that's well-sourced. So, we have the choice of saying nothing about Knowledge being free, or we can say there's no charge but donations are encouraged, or we can devote a section to discussing the finances related to the teaching of Knowledge. I think the first two choices are better. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 02:30, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
- It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to copy this to DLM, given that it's talking about the Keys and the present time. And FWIW, what you added about the nagging, while not without its comic effect, does not belong into a "Teaching" section IMO. I think I'll go to bed now and come back another day when it's slightly less hot in the kitchen. Suggest everyone take it easy. Cheers, Jayen466 02:08, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
- What do you mean that it isn't "only students who support the organizations"? Are you asserting that non-students/followers/initiates/premies are significant contributors? I've never heard that before. As for the sources, yes, let's stay close. Messer says that "All devotees are encouraged and nagged to donate funds of their own." I've tried "encouraged to donate", and you didn't like that. I tried "solicited donations" and you reverted that repeatedly. How about "According to one member, followers are nagged to donate funds of their own." Is that close enough to the source for you? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 09:18, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
From 1974 to 2008, 34 years going to an event almost every year, and I never heard that anyone was asked to give any property. Are rumors and things like and "I have read" and "I have heard" accepted?--Pedrero (talk) 06:16, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
- "Donations are encouraged" or "... invited" is fine by me, and I believe both fair and accurate. I'd be happy to mention as well that this invitation to contribute funds is in relation to Rawat's speaking events, or to Premies' participation in outreach efforts. The nagging story and the pocket-emptying story are perhaps best placed in the DLM article. Jayen466 02:39, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
- As long as we keep it to a line or so, that's fine with me too. It's when folks want to add several lines about how the teachings are free that there's a need for more material to balance it. The DLM was an important part of the subject's life. Unless we start this biography in 1982 we can't leave out relevant DLM material. It may be that as the subject's fortunes grew he no longer needed to have his mahatmas present him with bags of money. Many parts of the subect's suituation changed between 1966 and 2008. We're writing a biography of the whole man. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:26, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
- "Donations are encouraged" or "... invited" is fine by me, and I believe both fair and accurate. I'd be happy to mention as well that this invitation to contribute funds is in relation to Rawat's speaking events, or to Premies' participation in outreach efforts. The nagging story and the pocket-emptying story are perhaps best placed in the DLM article. Jayen466 02:39, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
- Why should DLM/EV/TPRF be singled out as "soliciting, encouraging or inviting" donations. This page says "Donate now" to Wikipedia but nothing is said about ""soliciting, encouraging or inviting" donations in the Wikipedia article. The Wikimedia Foundation, Inc. is described as "a non-profit charitable organization" that "is dependent mostly on donations". Nothing about "soliciting, encouraging or inviting" donations". Yet right up the top of this page is the demand "Donate now". It would easier to edit Rawat and related articles if Rawat was treated as an individual and DLM/EV/TPRF were described in the same way as other " non-profit charitable organizations" without the weasels words and phrases.Momento (talk) 02:53, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
- Every article should reliably summarize relevant material found in reliable sources. This articles isn't about Jesus or Wikipedia. Those topics have sub-articles like Jesus' sexuality and Criticism of Wikipedia. Would you like to see this article have comparable subarticles? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:26, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
- There are already articles on DLM and EV so that's covered.Momento (talk) 21:54, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
- "...so that's covered." So what is covered? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:31, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
Does Wikipedia discriminate?
1) All religions and spiritual movements started being considered sects or cults by previous religions, including Christians, etc. No one started with millions, that came long after masters or leaders died. Why are there not similar "cult" or "sect" remarks in all other biographies of religious and spiritual leaders and movements?
2) All masters, true or false, lived without working, preaching was their job. There is no proof that Jesus worked as a carpenter until he was 30, that is just how we have tried to fill the inexplicable silence of the gospels on most of his life. All masters have lived from the "payments" of their followers, including Jesus, etc. Prem Rawat may be the first or one of the few to be financially independent. Why are there not similar remarks on "payments" in all other biographies of religious and spiritual leaders?
3) All masters, prophets, etc. have been critisized in their time, Jesus too. Two examples of masters who came from India and preached in the US, Vivekananda and Yogananda. They were also critized, specially by Christian church authorities. There are no negative comments in their biographies, nor in those of most Indian masters, but many in Prem Rawat's article. --Pedrero (talk) 21:56, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- This isn't a discussion forum. No discrimination is going on surrounding this topic. There are discussion forums available for you to join if you want to have discussions with other premies. See Chatanand. There are also many blogs you can read that are written by adherents of Prem Rawat which give you the chance to comment if you want. Just do a Google Blog search and plug in "Maharaji." You'll find plenty of premies to contact and converse with. There's no discrimination happening here because as Maharaji always says, as well as his organizations' FAQ state, practicing Knowledge and following him is compatible with, but not a spiritual practice, philosophy, life-style or religion. Therefore, your complaints about discrimination are unfounded. Best wishes. Sylviecyn (talk) 22:50, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- The job of Wikipedia editors is to verifiably summarize reliable sources using the neutral point of view. In this case, sources have devoted considerable attention to the subject's lifestyle. The biography of Jesus spends time talking about his relationship to his apostles. Yet this biography doesn't even mention the mahatmas that were called the apostles of Guru Maharaj Ji. We have an entire article devoted to the shoes that the Pope wears, yet we don't even mention Prem Rawat's footwear. So it goes. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:39, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- Well, if instead of looking at Jesus Christ, we go look at Rawat's contemporaries, like Jim Jones, Satya Sai Baba, Rev. Moon, etc, I think you'll find similar topics covered. The fact that Pedrero would compare Rawat to Christ speaks volumes. Folks keep saying that the movement has changed, but the 1970s DLM repeatedly compared to Guru Maharaj Ji to Christ. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 17:19, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- You mentioned 3 cases (etc.) out of many dozens or hundreds. What about the rest? To find more negative comments than in Prem Rawat's biography, you have to go to someone like Jim Jones, very different from Prem. Clear discrimination. To me it seems someone in Wikipedia is obsessed with defaming Prem Rawat. Again, how many spiritual biographies have more negative comments than Prem's?--Pedrero (talk) 16:46, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- What negative comments are you referring to? WP:NPOV requires that we include all significant points of view: positive, negative, or neutral. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:39, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
- You mentioned 3 cases (etc.) out of many dozens or hundreds. What about the rest? To find more negative comments than in Prem Rawat's biography, you have to go to someone like Jim Jones, very different from Prem. Clear discrimination. To me it seems someone in Wikipedia is obsessed with defaming Prem Rawat. Again, how many spiritual biographies have more negative comments than Prem's?--Pedrero (talk) 16:46, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- Would you consider the tart-on-the-face incident a positive or a negative comment? And the "he has been critized for his opulent lifestyle"? I do not see the same for the Pope, the Orthodox Patriarc in Moscow, etc., who also have opulent lives being Jesus' successors or representatives. I suppose the highest hierarchies of other churches do not live in slums, in Spain they used to live and I suppose many still live in an "Episcopal Palace". Where are the equivalent comments? Do you think that Prem's biography is normal for a person as respected as to speak in the House of Representatives in the US, and in the best universities and other respected institutions, with a respected audience of intellectuals including ministers? Find me a few biographies with more negative comments than Prem's biography. But do not include people like Osho Baghwan, rejected by the Beatles for good reasons, and imprisoned by the FBI also for good reasons, or Jim Jones, or the man in Waco, (David Koresh?) etc., no pyscopaths, please, they are the only ones that seem to have a worse biography than Prem. I will count the negative comments in Prem's biography and others if I have time, which is difficult.--Pedrero (talk) 08:04, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
Teachings duplicated
per conversation with jossi et al, the Teachings section is basically duplicated elsewhere in WP. As a result, most of it is not pertinent to the BLP of Prem Rawat. Can we go back to a much shorter version rather than have the whole section back in place? I am not sure, in point of fact, that any of it is needed here, but would think a very short precis would work. Thanks! Collect (talk) 18:55, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- That's what we've got now.Momento (talk) 19:20, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks! Is the line about opinions of practitioners directly germane, however? Collect (talk) 19:28, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- I think that the teachings should be removed pretty much completely -- they are not directly related to the BLP, they are duplicated in other articles, and they serve, at best, to attract discussion unrelated to a biography. I note a great deal has been re-added, although in my discussion with jossi I was told there should be no objection to the removal. Collect (talk) 01:44, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- I agree that the material is unnecessary in this article. At most a short paragraph might be left, per WP:SUMMARY. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 02:17, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- I think that the teachings should be removed pretty much completely -- they are not directly related to the BLP, they are duplicated in other articles, and they serve, at best, to attract discussion unrelated to a biography. I note a great deal has been re-added, although in my discussion with jossi I was told there should be no objection to the removal. Collect (talk) 01:44, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks! Is the line about opinions of practitioners directly germane, however? Collect (talk) 19:28, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- Rawat's teachings are more important to his notability than anything else. No teachings no notability. The fact that we have a separate article for teachings show how important they are. But readers should be able to get some understanding of his claim to fame from this article without having to go elsewhere.Momento (talk) 02:28, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- As per "Each article on a subtopic, are encyclopedic articles in their own right and contain their own lead sections (which will be quite similar to the summary in their 'parent' article". And that is what we have here.Momento (talk) 02:31, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- Per Wikipedia:SUMMARY#Levels_of_desired_details, this section should be at least several paragraphs long, which is now the case. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:00, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- That article is due for an overhaul, and after that the summary that Momento wrote for this article also needs to be worked on to properly cover the topic. There's no end to the work to be done on Wikipedia! ·:· Will Beback ·:· 09:31, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- It is ridiculous to have the teachings separate from the biography. What is the problem if it is long? It is already much longer than in other languages. His teachings are more important for his biography than how many premies were there in Netherland in 1984 or any of the too many absurd details the purpose of which is to portray what the media said, the same media that said there were WMD in Iraq and a plane dissapeared and vaporised for the first time in a century of aviation history, and 3 skyskrapers in NY decided to choose the same day to be the fist ones to collapse by fire. Is there an article for Picasso and another one for his paintings or one for Mozart and another one for his music, etc.? Put all or most of the DLM times anecdotes where they belong, in the DLM article, and put the teachings where they belong. Why are there very few or no comments from DLM times in Wikipedia's articles in other languages and a lot in English? It has nothing to do with the language, so unless I find a better explanation, the explanation I have is that after all Wikipedia is American, and many things are seen very differently in the US and elsewhere, including other democracies. Prem without his teachings is not Prem, no matter how long the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pedrero (talk • contribs) 07:00, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
- That article is due for an overhaul, and after that the summary that Momento wrote for this article also needs to be worked on to properly cover the topic. There's no end to the work to be done on Wikipedia! ·:· Will Beback ·:· 09:31, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- Pedrero, you ask if we have separate articles for Mozart and for his music. Yes, we do. In fact Wikipedia has over 100 articles on Mozart, his life and his music. See Category:Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart. WE have over fifty articles on Picasso. Category:Pablo Picasso. In both cases there are separate biographies and articles on their works. Prem Rawat is a teacher, but he is also a man. He has a wife, children, brothers, and properties, just like Mozart did. Regarding the Prem Rawat articles in other languages, they are not as well developed. The article in Spanish is very incomplete and barely mentions some of the subject's most important periods, like his time with the DLM. Even worse is the Simple English version. Of course, these versions have at least one editor in common, so if there's a fault that may be the place to look. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:39, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
- That's what we've got now.Momento (talk) 19:20, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
I may have made a mistake with Picasso and Mozart, but is it normal for spiritual figures to have a separate place for their teachings? Majority? 50-50? Minority?--Pedrero (talk) 06:10, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
Halley beating
Restored the deletion of the paragraph about the Detroit incident, which was performed by an uninvolved editor User:Collect. It can be moved to the DLM article, and summarized in a short sentence here is indispensable. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:38, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- We've been over this before. The pie throwing and subsequent beating were highly-reported events in the history of the subject. I've restored the well-sourced material. It would take far more than a short sentence to summarize the matter with its correct weight. Since the material partly involves Rawat and partly involves the DLM, and since there is so many sources available, perhaps it's time to spin this out into a separate article. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:48, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- Really? I think that it is unnecessary... It was incident, sure. It may need to be reported, sure. But a paragraph of that size in the context of this article. No, don't think so... It simply does not fit with the rest of the article's subject. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:56, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- The subject is the life or Prem Rawat. I don't know what you mean by it doesn't fit with the subject. It was the subject who was the target of the pie, it was the subject's top followers who committed the .beating, it was the subject's name featured prominently in every description of the event, it was the subject's reputation which changed, and it was the subject's organization that paid damages to settle a civil suit. And we're still omitting many important details about the event. I suggest again that the best solution is to spin this off into a standalone article. The event is sufficiently notable for one. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:02, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- No, it is not that notable, Will. It is miscellanea at best. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:16, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- If it's an article, AfD could help us settle that. For now, I'd be amenable to just reverting to the version of that incident from a month ago, before Momento started re-writing it with no discussion. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:18, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- Agree Jossi. It's undue weight on a massive scale and guilt be association. Rawat's involvement was he was attacked by Halley and forgave him, that's where it ends. The fact of the attack by unrelated assailants is of lesser note and only of interest because Rawat organized an enquiry that found the assailants and held them for the police.Momento (talk) 01:26, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- If you think it's undue weight then why did you add more (unsourced) text, thereby giving it greater weight? Does anyone object to reverting this paragraph to how it was a month ago? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:08, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- No, it is not that notable, Will. It is miscellanea at best. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:16, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- The subject is the life or Prem Rawat. I don't know what you mean by it doesn't fit with the subject. It was the subject who was the target of the pie, it was the subject's top followers who committed the .beating, it was the subject's name featured prominently in every description of the event, it was the subject's reputation which changed, and it was the subject's organization that paid damages to settle a civil suit. And we're still omitting many important details about the event. I suggest again that the best solution is to spin this off into a standalone article. The event is sufficiently notable for one. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:02, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- It's a beat up. It deserves two sentences at most.Momento (talk) 06:36, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- Then why did you expand it? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:48, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- To include what Rawat did.Momento (talk) 07:09, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- Really? I think that it is unnecessary... It was incident, sure. It may need to be reported, sure. But a paragraph of that size in the context of this article. No, don't think so... It simply does not fit with the rest of the article's subject. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:56, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- While we're on the topic of weight, why is an appearance at Hynes Civic Auditorium in Boston so important that it deserves a paragraph of its own? How widely reported was it? Just the single source? Also, would Momento please include proper citations, including the title of the article? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:16, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- Because it describes Rawat speaking. And if you care to look you will see the cite includes the title of the article " EastWest Journal "An Expressway over Bliss Mountain"by Phil Levy P 29". Momento (talk) 06:39, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- Are you saying that every speech of Rawat's deserves a pararaph? This article is gonna be awfully long! The citation that needs a title, and author if there is one, is this: Page 2 - Section B – Sun News – Las Cruces, New Mexico - Wednesday, August 22, 1973. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:44, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- It certainly has more value than the joke paragraphs about the cars.Momento (talk) 07:09, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- Title? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 07:18, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- Because it describes Rawat speaking. And if you care to look you will see the cite includes the title of the article " EastWest Journal "An Expressway over Bliss Mountain"by Phil Levy P 29". Momento (talk) 06:39, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- We still need a title for this source. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:31, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
- Mahatma Fakiranand was absolutely not an unrelated assailant, quite the contrary, he was a close associate of Prem Rawat. He was also an agent of Divine Light Mission of which Prem Rawat was the spiritual leader and titular head. One cannot merely report one portion of the incident without reporting the other. One cannot report that Prem Rawat was the victim of a simple assault (the pieing) and leave out the fact that the person who pied him became the victim of attempted murder within days of his simple assault on Rawat. It's like reporting that there was a motorcade in Dallas, TX on November 22, 1963 and omitting the assassination of JKF. It was the assault on Haley that made international news as well as the pieing. No one is suggesting that Rawat be blamed for the attack, and anyway there are no sources that would substantiate such a claim here. Sylviecyn (talk) 04:38, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- Wasn't Fakiranand the most senior Mahatma, the first one chosen by Prem Rawat himself? I keep seeing the name. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:41, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- Ah, here's this:
- Mahatma Fakiranand is a very special mahatma, being one of the first premies elevated to that sacred state after the barely pubescent godhead (he's one day older than Donny Osmond) assumed the title of Perfect Master in 1969 upon the death of his father, the founder of the Divine Light Mission. Fakiranand is fondly referred to as Guru Maharaj Ji's "drunken puppy," because of his rather peculiar sense of devotion. The day after the Detroit incident Tina Sanderson was receiving The Knowledge from Fakiranand, and she was more than a little perturbed by his zeal. He made the twenty-odd premies-to-be clean their pockets of all their possessions, scooping the spare change into a paper bag which, along with many other paper bags he would collect from other Knowledge sessions, he would personally deliver to the feet of his master. Tina remembers being particularly disturbed by the fanatical display of adoration Fakiranand exhibited. "He made us bow twenty times to a picture of Guru Maharaj Ji, making us promise to renounce all other gurus and religious beliefs. There was a picture of Guru Maharaj Ji which had fallen to the floor. He got all agitated and scolded us for not rushing over to pick it up. Other premies later told me that he would berate them for even turning their backs on a picture of Maharaj Ji." Considering that in most ashrams the divine physiognomy is present on all walls, even Rose Mary Woods would have a hard time contorting her body in such a manner as to face all four sides simultaneously.
- Interestingly, that also covers the matter of mahatmas asking initiates to empty their pockets in order to give the money to Guru Maharaj Ji, who we know never charged for Knowledge. I guess he never inquired about where the bags of money appeared from. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:03, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- Mahatma Fakiranand was absolutely not an unrelated assailant, quite the contrary, he was a close associate of Prem Rawat. He was also an agent of Divine Light Mission of which Prem Rawat was the spiritual leader and titular head. One cannot merely report one portion of the incident without reporting the other. One cannot report that Prem Rawat was the victim of a simple assault (the pieing) and leave out the fact that the person who pied him became the victim of attempted murder within days of his simple assault on Rawat. It's like reporting that there was a motorcade in Dallas, TX on November 22, 1963 and omitting the assassination of JKF. It was the assault on Haley that made international news as well as the pieing. No one is suggesting that Rawat be blamed for the attack, and anyway there are no sources that would substantiate such a claim here. Sylviecyn (talk) 04:38, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- Petty is such an unreliable source. It can't even get the date of Shri Hans' death right.Momento (talk) 06:43, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- Just like Melton is unreliable because he can't even get Mishler's name right? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:47, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- Melton's a scholar. It's clear the above source is a poor journalist.Momento (talk)
- Clear because they got an immaterial year wrong? As we all know, you don't like journalists, Christian scholars, etc. etc, etc. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 07:16, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- Will, do not distort chronology to eliminate the fact that DLM identified the assailants and informed the police.Momento (talk) 08:36, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- There are many sources for this material, and they don't all agree on all of the details. You appear to be deleting details. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 08:50, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- No one knew who the assailants were followers until DLM identified them. That is important and you can't keep taking it out.Momento (talk) 08:59, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- Several sources say that the DLM misidentified the attackers, and may have even claimed, at first, that they weren't part of the movement at all. Like I said before, there are conflicting sources and we can't pick just one explanation and call it the right one. The version we had a month ago seemed an appropriate length and depth - why don't we just go back to that?
- On August 7, 1973, Rawat attended a Detroit Common Council gathering for a testimonial resolution praising his work. There he was hit with a pie made of shaving cream by a reporter from the Fifth Estate, an underground Detroit newspaper.[46][47] Rawat responded immediately by saying that he did not want his attacker arrested or hurt, but a week later two followers attacked the reporter and fractured his skull.[17][48] When local members heard of the incident they notified Rawat in Los Angeles who extended his regrets and condolences to Pat Halley's family, and requested that the DLM conduct a full investigation. The suspected assailants, one of them an Indian mahatma, were identified. They admitted their part in the attack and offered to turn themselves in. The Chicago police were immediately notified and contacted the Detroit Police,[49] who declined to initiate extradition proceedings, variously claiming that they were unable to locate the assailants, or that the cost of extraditing the assailants from Chicago to Detroit made it impractical.[50] This lack of action by the Detroit police was attributed by some to Halley's radical politics.[51][17][52] 01:18, October 24, 2008
- Let's just backtrack all of this recent editing and go back to the version that Jossi and I and everybody else worked on months ago. This is the "consensus version". ·:· Will Beback ·:· 09:12, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- Several sources say that the DLM misidentified the attackers, and may have even claimed, at first, that they weren't part of the movement at all. Like I said before, there are conflicting sources and we can't pick just one explanation and call it the right one. The version we had a month ago seemed an appropriate length and depth - why don't we just go back to that?
- I have never yet seen a "consensus" version of this article. Rumiton (talk) 13:46, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- Coming from an outside point of view, a "pieing" is generally considered trivial in biographies. In fact, it is generally not even mentioned. On the other hand, I would also like the biography trimmed to being a biography, instead of a melange of philosophy, teachings, events and politics. The customs issue is also something which, in most biographies, would be held to maybe two sentences. Collect (talk) 13:08, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- I agree, and this article has gone in a direction that it took previously a couple of years ago, with highly POV'd editors adding more and more supporting refs until the article became what a Good Article reviewer described as "bloated." It will take a major effort of conciliation now to agree to a sensible reduction. And if it happens, I anticipate pressure to hive off trivia into secondary articles and claim they do not constitute living biographies. Rumiton (talk) 13:46, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- Coming from an outside point of view, a "pieing" is generally considered trivial in biographies. In fact, it is generally not even mentioned. On the other hand, I would also like the biography trimmed to being a biography, instead of a melange of philosophy, teachings, events and politics. The customs issue is also something which, in most biographies, would be held to maybe two sentences. Collect (talk) 13:08, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- I'm afraid the opportunity to have a biography of a fascinating and determined person who came to the west as a 13 year old and created the fastest growing NRM in the west against the opposition of his family, the ridicule of the media and the stupid acts of others (customs, Halley, Millennium) is impossible owing to Will's insistence that the article's major focus is on money, the ridicule of the media and the stupid acts of others.Momento (talk) 18:03, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- And here's two sentences on the "customs incident" - "On arrival, Indian customs claimed a suitcase containing money and gifts was not properly declared which was widely reported in the western media as "Guru caught smuggling".[4][5] The allegations were investigated by the Indian government and the Indian government later issued an apology which was not widely reported in the western media.[6] Momento (talk) 18:15, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- Petty is such an unreliable source. It can't even get the date of Shri Hans' death right.Momento (talk) 06:43, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- If the incident had ended with the pie throwing, it probably wouldn't be worth mentioning at all. But the near-fatal beating of the pie thrower not only made national news, it changed the public's perception of the Guru. The event received significant coverage right away as well of over the following years. I hope that Rumiton is not including me among the "highly POV'd editors". It is Momento who started adding more material to this incident. Again, I suggest that this topic is worthy of an article of its own, and that in the meantime we'd best go back to the version that had a consensus, one which Jossi and I and others all worked on. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:13, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- Yes that's right Will. Because the newspapers we're heavy on guilt by association and strangely quiet on Rawat's contribution to identifying the culprits and making them available to the police. Just like with the customs, just like with Millennium and just like with this article. It is your POV that dominates the Millennium article and now this one. Here's how the Halley section should be "On August 7, 1973, Rawat attended a Detroit Common Council gathering for a testimonial resolution praising his work. There he was hit with a pie made of shaving cream by Pat Halley, a reporter from the Fifth Estate, an underground newspaper.[46][47] Rawat responded immediately by saying that he did not want Halley arrested or hurt, but a week later Halley was attacked and his skull fractured. Suspecting that they might be followers, Rawat requested that the DLM conduct a full investigation, and the assailants were identified and held for the police. The Detroit Police[49] declined to pursue that matter, attributed by some to Halley's radical politics.[51][17][52] Momento (talk) 22:18, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- It's totally off base. For example, nowhere does it say that one of the followers was the senior mahatma in the U.S., that the fled across state lines, etc., etc. What is wrong with the version I posted above, that was in the article last month? Why is it that after spending a month working on this with Jossi, with Momento also around, he now feels the need to make a total re-write? This article is like a merry-go-round. Things get settled then folks want to start all over again. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:38, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- Will, I hadn't noticed the previous consensus version in the above swathe of text. Sorry. It isn't bad at all, and I can understand that you want the reference to the mahatma in there. But the "crossing state lines" thing I think can be jettisoned – it's too peripheral and too much for the reader to take in, IMO; Chicago Police, Detroit Police and all. I only "got it" after reading your commentary here on the talk page.
- If fiddling with it is too much to deal with at the moment, I'd support a return to the old "consensus" version until there is a quieter day. Jayen466 01:43, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
- The mahatma was one of hundreds appointed by Rawat's mother and he left Rawat when he married. The problem with the "consensus" version is that it identifies the assailants as "followers" when no one knew who they were until DLM investigated. Chronologically it shouldn't be mentioned until after the DLM investigated. It's a little thing but it shows the sequence of events and the instrumental part Rawat played.Momento (talk) 02:29, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
- Indian or American, state lines or footpath is irrelevant to Rawat. What my version has that yours does not is that it is concise and covers only the main points and summarizes what happened - pie thrown, Rawat forgives, Halley attacked, followers suspected, Rawat orders investigation, assailants identified and held, police do nothing, Halley's political views. Seen in its bare bones Rawat looks good and that is why people with a negative POV don't like it.Momento (talk) 23:55, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- No, it isn't irrelevant to Rawat. What you call "my" version was the result of consensus between Jossi and me. The version you've got is incomplete and misleading. His senior apostle nearly killed a man on for throwing shaving cream, then the followers fled across state lines and were hidden at an ashram, the police and media were given conflicting stories by the DLM, and Rawat took no action against the attackers. In response, Rawat received a large amount of negative press. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:23, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
- Can editors slow down a bit? I am sure that there is a compromise version between Momento/Jayen's version and the previous agreed version. (Will: WP:Consensus can change) ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:36, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
- It always does, at least on this article. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:45, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
- When it comes to "weight" I'd complain if this incident, reported by newspapers across the country, by magazines, and by scholars, is given the same or less weight than a speech in Boston reported in only one source and with no larger significance. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:52, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
- Can editors slow down a bit? I am sure that there is a compromise version between Momento/Jayen's version and the previous agreed version. (Will: WP:Consensus can change) ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:36, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
- No, it isn't irrelevant to Rawat. What you call "my" version was the result of consensus between Jossi and me. The version you've got is incomplete and misleading. His senior apostle nearly killed a man on for throwing shaving cream, then the followers fled across state lines and were hidden at an ashram, the police and media were given conflicting stories by the DLM, and Rawat took no action against the attackers. In response, Rawat received a large amount of negative press. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:23, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
- And that of course is the major problem with this article and your POV. What Rawat says or does is not nearly as important to you as what some crazy follower does.Momento (talk) 01:02, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
- Please don't discuss my POV unless you're willing for your own to become a topic of discussion. We have to follow our sources to judge how much weight to give to various issues. Numerous writers and scholars found the beating notable, only one obscure magazine writer found the Boston speech worth reporting. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:10, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
- Also, remember that this article is the biography of Rawat. There is a separate article that covers his teachings. Obviously, the fact that his senior apostle nearly beat a man to death has nothing to do with Rawat's message of peace. Right? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 07:54, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
- My POV is well known and frequently discussed on these pages, even by you. Is this encyclopedia going to be written as a popularity contest? The Fifth Estate and every magazine/newspaper that repeats its material should be considered suspect since it was its reporter that attacked Rawat. Is there any doubt that the Fifth Estate knew of Halley's attack before hand?Momento (talk) 01:27, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
- Is there any doubt that the DLM knew of Mahatma Fakiranand's attack beforehand, considering he spent DLM money to fly to Detroit, and borrowed a DLM car to drive to the scene of the attack? Yes, the Fifth Estate is a reliable source. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:36, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
- Are you seriously suggesting that DLM officials encouraged this guy to do what he did then put him in to the police? Rumiton (talk) 12:18, 23 November 2008 (UTC) And "consensus between Jossi and me?" What about the rest of us? I wonder if you understand the open-ended nature of this beast. There will always be new editors like Collect who show up and think it is nuts. It's too long, it's trivial in tone, it's biased, it's...whatever. You are going to look pretty silly saying "But Jossi and I reached a consensus on this version." And by the way, too long, trivial in tone and biased is exactly how it looks to me right now. Rumiton (talk) 12:18, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
- Is there any doubt that the DLM knew of Mahatma Fakiranand's attack beforehand, considering he spent DLM money to fly to Detroit, and borrowed a DLM car to drive to the scene of the attack? Yes, the Fifth Estate is a reliable source. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:36, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
- No, I never said that the DLM encouraged the beating of Halley. Momento asserted that the Fifth Estate , and anyone influenced by their writing, may be [suspect]
an unsuitable source because of his unproven suspicion[and] that the editors there many have known about the pie throwing incident beforehand. As for Collect's edits, he deleted the entire Teachings section. Yet I don't see Rumiton saying that we should keep it deleted just because an uninvolved editor thought it was unnecessary. Uninvolved editors can help by providing outside views, but they often won/t know the relative significance of events, and if they stick around long enough they're not uninvolved any longer (like me). When Jossi and I were discussing the Halley incident months ago everyone was around and active, and so they were an implicit part of the consensus too. I don't think that anyone would be surprised that followers of Rawat would think that a discussion of the beating of Halley should be suppressed. As Jayen advises, WP:Writing for the enemy is a good way of achieving NPOV. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:50, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
- No, I never said that the DLM encouraged the beating of Halley. Momento asserted that the Fifth Estate , and anyone influenced by their writing, may be [suspect]
- The sentence about being "shipped off" to Germany and not "demoted" is unrelated to Rawat and should be removed.Momento (talk) 06:51, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
- Why? Rawat was in charge of the mahatmas, who initiated followers into Knowledge on his behalf. This particular mahatma was hand-picked by Rawat himself, and was the senior mahatma in the US, so he wasn't just some flunky. Rawat expressed regret for the beating, but his actions also speak. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 07:01, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
- That's your OR. I hope you're not using Penthouse as your source "Mahatma Fakiranand is a very special mahatma.. assumed the title of Perfect Master in 1969 upon the death of his father"? There are numerous sources that say his mother and Satpal were in charge of DLM. We know that Rawat was not of legal age and we know he did not have administrative control of DLM. And we know Fakiranand disobeyed Rawat. So what basis is there to think Rawat had any control over him a t all.Momento (talk) 07:44, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
- There are many sources for this stuff. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 07:59, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
- Many sources, that Rawat was in charge of the mahatmas? Please provide a source.Momento (talk) 08:22, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, many sources. But aside from what outsiders say, he had to have been in charge of them. I mean, he was saying that only he could provide Knowledge. Yet the way he was providing Knowledge was through the mahatmas who gave the actual initiations. If the mahatmas were under the authority of someone else, then it wasn't Guru Maharaj Ji who was supplying Knowledge. If that were the case then he was just giving talks at festivals. Was it BBJ who was really in charge of the mahatmas and of initiating followers into Knowledge? What was Guru Maharaj Ji's role in conducting initiations, if it wasn't supervising the mahatmas? Did someone else do the training and initiation of mahatmas? We have outside sources that say he took over administrative control when he turned 16, about five months after this incident. But what sources do we have that say he wasn't in control of the spiritual arm of the movement, or that he wasn't actually responsible for providing Knowledge by supervising or training the mahatmas? See, it doesn't make logical sense to say that he wasn't in charge of the mahatmas, because that would imply that Knowledge flowed from another source. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 09:15, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
- No source, no inclusion.Momento (talk) 09:33, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
- Please don't delete sourced, neutral material while we're discussing it. There are many sources for GMJ being the head or leader of his movement, which included the mahatmas and lower level folks too. While I'm digging up your sources, can you answer my question? If he wasn't in charge of the mahatmas, then what was his role in teaching the techniques of Knowledge? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 09:52, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
- It isn't enough that material be sourced, I can find a source that says ice cream is made of cream, it has to be relevant to the subject. And please note "This is not a forum for general discussion of Prem Rawat".Momento (talk) 09:59, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
- If the subject had no control over the teaching of Knowledge, then it'd be good to have a source for that, because it tends to contradict statements he was making at the time. Should we write, "Rawat described himself as the only source of Knowledge, though it was actually his brother and mother who were in charge of initiating followers into the techniques"? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 10:16, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
- Rawat was always acknowledged as the source of Knowledge but it is also well know that because of his age his mother and Satpal controlled the mission.Momento (talk) 21:04, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
- How did he spread that Knowledge oif not through his mahatmas? Do you have any sources that say the mahatmas reported to BBJ or Mata Ji? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:33, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
- Also, we're not talking about the mission, we're talking about the mahatmas. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:50, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
- The source you're looking for and haven't provided is that Rawat sent Fakiranand to Europe and didn't demote him. It's coming out. Momento (talk) 21:09, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
- The sources below, and this is just a start, refer to them as "his mahatmas". They don't call them "BBJ's mahatmas". ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:33, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
- So what? Sources refer to his followers, does that mean we can put the actions of the ouiji board follower in this article? This is about Rawat not what his Mahatma or his mother or his followers do.Momento (talk) 21:48, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
- We talk about the followers and organizations extensively in this article. If we deleted every mention of those then that'd be different. But the fact is that leaders are responsible for the actions of the people under them, especially when they act in the leader's name. And even more so when those senior disciples are "hand-picked" by the leader. If Rawat picked the mahatmas, if they were "his" mahatmas, then it's logical that he had authority over them. What source says he didn't have control over the mahatmas? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:57, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
- I've got news for you, leaders aren't responsible for the actions of people "under them", they are only responsible for their own actions. Otherwise, George Bush would be responsible for every crime committed by every U.S. govt employee. And for the last time, I do not need a source that says " he didn't have control over the mahatmas", you need a source that says "Rawat sent Fakiranand to Europe". If you can't provide that source then where Fakiranand goes is irrelevant to this article.Momento (talk) 23:09, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
- See Ronald Reagan. Even though Reagan professed ignorance of the Iran-Contra Affair, it still gets covered. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:38, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
- Here's an example of what you need "In 1969 the new leader, Guru Maharaj Ji, sent one of his mahatmas, or a 'realised soul', to Britain as a missionary to win converts for his master".Price, 1979
- Well, that's sufficient. It shows that Maharaj Ji, even as early as 1969, was responsible for telling mahatmas where to go. It disproves that he was not in control of them. ·:· Will Beback ·:·
- No it doesn't. It only tells us that he sent Charananand to England. Next you'll be saying he sent Fakiranand to Detroit. But while we're on the subject where is the source of the comment your provided that Rawat took the pieing with good grace?Momento (talk) 02:56, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
- We have sources that call them "his mahatmas", that describe them as "hand-picked" or as his "personal representatives" who were "authorized" by Rawat to teach Knowledge. We have a reliable source saying that he ordered one to go England when he was only nine years old. There is no evidence that four years later he was no longer in control of the mahatmas, or that they had suddenly ceased to be his hand-picked personal representatives. We also have a source that says the DLM lied and tried to hide the follower's involvement or their identities. So their statements cannot be taken at face value. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:30, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
- I can’t really source it properly, but it is quite realistic and plausible to assume that Prem mainly „inherited“ the whole flock of Indian mahatmas from the days his father built up the mission, after whose death they were mainly under contol of Mata Ji and Bal Bhagwan Ji to begin with, while Prem in the beginning served more as a figurehead, until the transition and the family rift finally came to effect. The going after the split also shows in this direction, when almost all mahatmas followed Mata Ji, Fakiranand first of all. If they were hand-picked, then most probably by his father. The interim phase before the final switch from Indian to international mode must have been a very sensitive and dangerous time for Prem, and incidents like the one in Detroit show the urgency and necessity of a thorough reform. Indian mahatmas were known to be pretty much unadapted to Western culture, and some were rather militant, though not conspicuous under Indian conditions.--Rainer P. (talk) 09:26, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
- What you say may or may not be true, since there are apparently no sources for that version of events. We do have a source saying that Fakiranand in particular was chosen by Rawat himself.
- In any case, since we can't seem to agree on these recent changes, I've restored the version from 01:18, October 24, 2008. I also deleted the Boston speech, which only has one source and doens't seem especially significant in the life of the subject. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 17:32, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
- I can’t really source it properly, but it is quite realistic and plausible to assume that Prem mainly „inherited“ the whole flock of Indian mahatmas from the days his father built up the mission, after whose death they were mainly under contol of Mata Ji and Bal Bhagwan Ji to begin with, while Prem in the beginning served more as a figurehead, until the transition and the family rift finally came to effect. The going after the split also shows in this direction, when almost all mahatmas followed Mata Ji, Fakiranand first of all. If they were hand-picked, then most probably by his father. The interim phase before the final switch from Indian to international mode must have been a very sensitive and dangerous time for Prem, and incidents like the one in Detroit show the urgency and necessity of a thorough reform. Indian mahatmas were known to be pretty much unadapted to Western culture, and some were rather militant, though not conspicuous under Indian conditions.--Rainer P. (talk) 09:26, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
- We have sources that call them "his mahatmas", that describe them as "hand-picked" or as his "personal representatives" who were "authorized" by Rawat to teach Knowledge. We have a reliable source saying that he ordered one to go England when he was only nine years old. There is no evidence that four years later he was no longer in control of the mahatmas, or that they had suddenly ceased to be his hand-picked personal representatives. We also have a source that says the DLM lied and tried to hide the follower's involvement or their identities. So their statements cannot be taken at face value. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:30, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
- Do not keep making large edits without discussion or reason. The Halley paragraph has been stable for weeks apart from your attempts to insert irrelevant material. And the Boston description is one a very few first hand descriptions a Rawat talking in the U.S. in 73 and is therefore of great value.Momento (talk) 21:10, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
- No, that paragraph has not been stable. You never initiated a discussion before making changes to it. FWIW, Jayen agreed that the October version would be OK. And if we're going to insert random quotes from single sources then this article could easily grow ten times as long. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:22, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
- Considerably more stable than your attempt with the irrelevant Fakiranand "description". And if you want to introduce a new Wiki rule that says only material with multiple sources can be used, I've got a few rules I'd like to introduce. Momento (talk) 22:02, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
- What was wrong with the October version? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:57, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
- The sentence about being "shipped off" to Germany and not "demoted" is unrelated to Rawat and should be removed.Momento (talk) 06:51, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
I've added
- One of the assailants was eventually identified as Mahatma Fakiranand, one of the first mahatmas designated by Rawat and described as his "number one disciple".
That is sourced and relevant to Rawat. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:42, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
- No Will, it has nothing to do with Rawat. The paragraph is about Rawat being attacked and how Rawat reacted. The incident ends with the decision by the police to take no action. A description of Fakiranand is completely unnecessary.Momento (talk) 20:09, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
- Fakiranand was Rawat's hand picked number one disciple who nearly beat a man to death for throwing a pie at Rawat. I don't think you have the objectivity to recognize that the strong connection between them is relevant to this incident. Since you I'll take this to a notice board since we don't seem to be able to get a consensus here. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:23, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
- Number one disciple? According the the 5th Estate.Momento (talk) 20:57, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
- No Will, it has nothing to do with Rawat. The paragraph is about Rawat being attacked and how Rawat reacted. The incident ends with the decision by the police to take no action. A description of Fakiranand is completely unnecessary.Momento (talk) 20:09, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
Please let's not forget that Pat Halley was a person who lived in the world. He was creative, smart, funny, talented, and he had friends and family who loved him very much. This particular conversation (on the part of adherents only, not neutral editors like Will) has been the most stone-cold discussion I've yet read on Rawat-article talk pages. To give folks more perspective Pat Halley, please read Memorial Note Mike Neiswonger's memorial of Pat which gives a good explanation of how Pat's life was changed forever because of the murder attempt, as well as some background on the pieing. Scroll to bottom of the memorials for Mike's coments. Mahatama Fakiranand, a close underling of Prem Rawat, repeatedly hit Pat in the head with a hammer and left him for dead. I spoke with Pat a couple of times around seven years ago and he was still very afraid of anyone associated with Prem Rawat, including myself, even though I tried to reassure Pat that I was no longer associated with Rawat and deplored the attack. Pat went out of his way to describe how he still was in possession of books that had blood spatter on them from his attack. Just about a year ago last week Pat committed suicide. I trust what his friends have to say about Pat. Also, here is a short discussion about Pat by his friends Friends of Pat. Please show some respect and sensitivity while discussing this issue. Pat told me he regretted ever pieing Maharaji and he suffered so much for it for the rest of his life. Thank you. Sylviecyn (talk) 22:20, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
As I see it, this incident is a typically American event that Americans find fascinating. US mainstream media may say this changed his followers, but why did they keep on growing until now then? US mainstream media is really something. Spain's tourist slogan used to be "Spain is different". I think it fits the US better. I wonder who was the person who first had the idea and passed it over perhaps to other lower ones in a chain until it got down to Pat Halley. It is not impossible that he was asked to do it, or ordered to do it or paid to do it. Mainstream media probably wanted that picture and they got it. That could happen anywhere, of course, but happened in the US. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pedrero (talk • contribs)
- I'm not familiar with Spanish history sufficiently to know of similar incidents. But from reading the sources on this matter, I think that some writers were taken by the contradiction between the movement's philosophy of non-violence and the beatings administered by a senior follower. If a reporter threw a pie at the Pope and was then almost beaten to death by a cardinal I'm sure it would receive wide coverage in Spain. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 07:13, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
- Will you keep doing this thing of misquoting Prem Rawat or the DLM and then crying HYPOCRISY! It is most irresponsible. Where did you get the "movement's philosophy of non-violence"? Inner peace is not non-violence. I was a cadet military officer around that time, learning to attack with and defend against nuclear weapons, and I was a premie, too, going for inner peace as I still am. Fakiranand was not a "senior follower" he was just one of dozens of mahatmas, and IMO he was a certifiable lunatic. And all sources show that Prem Rawat abhorred this attack, and it is about time you acknowledged that. Rumiton (talk) 16:03, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
- All I know is what I read. I don't think I've misquoted the sources that I'm thinking of. The article in The Realist includes an interview with another Mahatma in which he's asked about how the Vietnamese should respond to being bombed by U.S. B-52s. He said they should do nothing and just allow themselves to be bombed rather than fighting back. As for Fakiranand, we have sources that say he was the first mahatma personally chosen by Rawat, and that he was among the first to come to the U.S. If you have sources to the contrary please provide them, but don't say I'm wrong unless there is a evidence of it. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 17:45, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
- Will you keep doing this thing of misquoting Prem Rawat or the DLM and then crying HYPOCRISY! It is most irresponsible. Where did you get the "movement's philosophy of non-violence"? Inner peace is not non-violence. I was a cadet military officer around that time, learning to attack with and defend against nuclear weapons, and I was a premie, too, going for inner peace as I still am. Fakiranand was not a "senior follower" he was just one of dozens of mahatmas, and IMO he was a certifiable lunatic. And all sources show that Prem Rawat abhorred this attack, and it is about time you acknowledged that. Rumiton (talk) 16:03, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
Mahatma sources
- I resolved to return to the ashram a week later when Mahatma Fakirand, the boy guru's number one disciple, would be back from a tour of the U.S. to "give knowledge." ... "Ah," said the Mahatma, "then who is the more important, guru or God?" Flashing on about 500 complexities and figuring I had had it, I replied, "God." At which the Mahatma told me that I should then ask God for knowledge; the guru is more important than God because the guru gives knowledge of God. The Mahatma advised me to get some more "satsang" and come back when I really believed that the guru is indeed the key to my life.
- "The Guru on Fourteenth Street" STEPHEN C. ROSE. the christian CENTURY. January 19, 1972, pp. 67-69
- Mahatma Fakiranand, close disciple of 14-year-old Guru Maharaj Ji, will be in Concord Friday afternoon at the Divine Light Mission on Baker Avenue.
- Disciple of 14-year-old Guru to visit Concord, the Lowell Sun, 9/14/72, p. 13
- Shortly after 11 o'clock the mahatma-one of a reported 2000 persons authorized by the Perfect Master to impart Knowledge-arrived.
- Rawson, 1973
- As Christ was worshiped by His followers, guru Maharaj Ji is also worshiped, having under him in his Divine Light Mission priests or apostles, who are called mahatmas (groat souls). They travel around the world conducting initiations, providing initiates "with a direct experience of C=God within themselves."
- "'Guru Is Perfect Master'", SANDRA HENDRICKS, Kingsport Times-News, Religion page. no date, circa 1974.
- God was having one of those weeks. First he had gotten bit in the face with a shaving-cream pie and shortly thereafter he had to be admitted to a Denver hospital with an ulcer in his small intestine. Arriving in Houston in the wake of these events, I found some dismay among the 300-odd devotees assembled there under Rennie's command to put together the Astrodome jamboree. To some, at least, it was no minor matter that the pie thrower lay in critical condition in a Detroit hospital after two of the gurus followers had attempted to bust his skull open with a blackjack. The blackjack wielder himself, described simply as an Indian in the first press accounts, had turned out to be Mahatma Fakiranand, one of the gurus high priests; in Rennie's words, "a man of extreme devotion and internal peace who had given knowledge to many of the American premies." Rennie was less disturbed. "The mahatma had great love for Guru Maharaj Ji and his emotions got the best of him. These things happen in any movement."
- Scheer, 1974
- (A week before Rennie had told me of another test for the premies when he admitted that Mahatma Fakiranand, one of the first Mahatmas to give Knowledge in the U.S., had been the one to nearly murder an underground reporter in Detroit last August after the reporter had thrown a pie in The Kid's face. The DLM had tried to cover up the fact by simply giving the Mahatma's Indian name and falsely claiming that he had been banished from the Divine Light Mission.)
- Kelley, February 1974
- The news of the Detroit incident was not long in reaching Boston. At the local ashram of the Divine Light Mission, a dismayed premie named Tina Sanderson showed a copy of the Boston Globe story to another premie named Juteswar Misra. Misra is no ordinary premie. He is in fact a mahatma, Fakiranand by name, one of the super-elite clan of several in the Western world empowered by Guru Maharaj Ji with dispensing his secretive meditation technique that premies call simply The Knowledge. ... Mahatma Fakiranand is a very special mahatma, being one of the first premies elevated to that sacred state after the barely pubescent godhead (he's one day older than Donny Osmond) assumed the title of Perfect Master in 1969 upon the death of his father, the founder of the Divine Light Mission. Fakiranand is fondly referred to as Guru Maharaj Ji's "drunken puppy," because of his rather peculiar sense of devotion.
- Kelley, July 1974
- The members are those who have received "the Knowledge" through a laying-on-of-hands technique taught to them in a secret rite by the Guru or one of his numerous mahatmas. ... In 1969 the first Western premies arrived at the Divine Light ashram at Prem Nagar, on the banks of the Ganges, and in October of that year the first of Maharaj Ji's mahatmas, Guru Charnanand, was sent westward, to London,... a satsang given in New York City by one of the Guru Maharaj Ji's mahatmas...
- Moritz 1974
- (at this writing, all but one of Guru Maharaj Ji's some two thousand mahatmas are from India or Tibet) ... Since all countries share Maharaj ji, those few mahatmas he has permitted to leave India, and Maharaj ji's family, there is continuous cooperation with respect to itineraries (though this is one area dominated by Maharaj Ji's personal decisions) ... The best estimates are based on attendance at unadvertised programs when Guru Maharaj Ji or one of his mahatmas is in town.
- Messer, 1974
- 0f course, not everyone was ready to buy the Guru's message. A young underground newspaper writer by the name of Pat Halley hit Maharaj Ji in the face with a shaving cream pie while the Guru was visiting Detroit to receive a humanitarian award. Halley saw his action ,as a "dramatic demonstration against mysticism." Whatever it was, it almost cost Halley his life because he forgot he was dealing with religious fanatics. One week later two men arrived in Detroit from the Boston Ashram. They conned Halley into letting them into his apartment by telling him that what he had done was "a courageous act." They said they had information that could further discredit the Guru. Halley, sensing a journalistic coup equal to the pie throwing one, jumped at the opportunity. Once inside, the Guru's goon squad used blackjacks to impart "Knowledge" to the hapless writer, and he was carted off to the hospital more dead than alive. In fact, when the police first received the call, they assigned two homicide detectives to investigate what they believed to he just another D.O.A. For Halley, it was a very long night. He had suffered massive brain damage. It required 55 stitches to close the wounds on his head, including the one made by the doctors to insert a plastic plate. The very first blow of Knowledge had turned the top of his skull into little slivers of hone. Officially, no formal complaint was ever filed and no warrants were ever issued. But soon after the beating, Ken Kelly, writing in a national magazine, identified the assailants as two important members of the Divine Light Mission, one a Mahatma and the other thought to be the reincarnation of St. Peter. The DLM public relations office at first denied the whole thing. Then they said, "Both men arc being held in protective custody in the Chicago Ashram. We will turn them over to the police department." But in fact, one Mahatma from the Boston Ashram was suddenly transferred to Germany where he is still giving Knowledge. and St. Peter seems to have disappeared. The Detroit Police have filed the case away. The interesting thing was that none of the Premies blinked an eye when they learned their God resorted to goons when he got upset. Typically, they would smile back with that "blissed-out" grin and say, "Man. I'd do it to you if Guru Maharaj Ji told me to."
- Baxter, 1974
- These techniques are taught by the guru or by the Mahatmas authorized by him in a secret initiation ceremony, which includes meditation.
- Magalwadi, 1977
- In 1969 the new leader, Guru Maharaj Ji, sent one of his mahatmas, or a 'realised soul', to Britain as a missionary to win converts for his master.
- Price, 1979
- They recruit members primarily through newspapers and yellow-pages advertising and by "personal witnessing" in which premies speak glowingly of their new-found peace and happiness since "receiving Knowledge" from Maharaj Ji or one of the Mahatmas or Prime Disciples designated by the guru to dispense "Knowledge."
- Rudin & Rudin, 1980
- Maharaj Ji's scores of hand-picked evangelists, called mahatmas, were reduced to twenty and renamed "initiators."
- Larson, 1982
- At initiation, a mahatma, the personal representative of Maharaj Ji...
- Melton, 1986
- Maharaj Ji chose his most faithful followers to be his personal 'mahatmas', later called 'initiators'.
- Nichols, et al., 2006
Misrepresenting
- Will,I have warned you several times about misrepresenting me. "Lies, including deliberately asserting false information on a discussion page in order to mislead one or more editor" is unacceptable. I did not assert "that the Fifth Estate , and anyone influenced by their writing, may be an unsuitable source because of his unproven suspicion that the editors there many have known about the pie throwing incident beforehand". I said "The Fifth Estate and every magazine/newspaper that repeats its material should be considered suspect since it was its reporter that attacked Rawat". This is not an isolated incident, he does it constantly. Two days ago we had this exchange -
- So are you saying that a 1973 book is acceptable but a 1973 magazine is too old? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:35, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- I'm not saying that Will. Be careful.Momento (talk) 07:04, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- You're right, it was Jayen who discussed old sources. So I gather you don't agree with his point. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 07:18, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- The above incident could be seen as a simple accident but nevertheless I warned Will about misrepresenting me. But as the block quote below proves beyond a shadow of doubt that Will is engaged in a deliberate pattern of harassment against. Is any admin reading this prepared to take a stand? Momento (talk) 23:06, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
Here Will asks me me if Collier is the most reliable source we can use for this article. Three times I say "no" and two days later he tells another editor I said "Yes".
- Momento, Are you asserting that Collier is the most reliable source we can use for this article, more reliable than newspapers or scholarly accounts? If so there's lots of material from that book that I'd like to add. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 17:53, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
- No.Momento (talk) 20:06, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
- No what? Is Collier a reliable source for the comments of Rennie Davis, and other personal observations? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:21, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
- You asked me a question. The answer is "No". Yes, Collier is a reliable source, providing normal Wiki policies are followed.Momento (talk) 21:20, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
- So if you agree that Collier is not more reliable than newspapers why did you assert that previously? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:34, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
- You asked me if Collier is " the most reliable source we can use for this article". And the answer is still "No". As for whether Collier is more reliable than "newspapers", that obviously depends on the particular material in question and the newspaper concerned.12 MayMomento
And two days later he wrote to another editor -
- Momento asserts that Collier is the most reliable source available. If a highly reliable source says that someone was drunk then it is not a BLP violation to discuss that. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:07, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- Let's stick to the topic at hand. Dredging up old, unrelated disputes isn't going to get us any closer to a resolution of this matter. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:23, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
- And, for the record, I apologize for mischaracterising Momento's assertion. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:31, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
- This is the topic at hand and will continue to be so every time you do it.Momento (talk) 01:41, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
- Article talk pages aren't for discussing editors, so this is off-topic. The topic of this page is improving the article titled "Prem Rawat", and the topic of this thread is the Halley incident. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:50, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
- The topic is you misrepresenting my comment on the Fifth Estate as a source on Halley.Momento (talk) 02:27, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
- This is the topic at hand and will continue to be so every time you do it.Momento (talk) 01:41, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
Sorry to say I find Will heavy. He always has something to say to everything everybody else says. It reminds me of "filbustering" in US politics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pedrero (talk • contribs) 08:27, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
Millennium
- A separate section on Millennium makes sense when you remove the interview paragraph. Better balance and reduces to over emphasis on money.Momento (talk) 21:43, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
- It's disingenuous to move something, and then to delete it for better flow. The material you deleted is not included in any other article, except for the first two sentences. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:00, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
- I'll put it in the Millennium article where it belongs. Any mention of Millennium in this article should be a balanced summary and certainly not highlight one question from the press conference. And please integrate this "Rawat said "I have something far more precious to give them than money and material things - I give peace".[86] "What do you expect him to do," a premie said, "travel from LA. to Houston on a donkey?"[71] "Maharaj Ji's luxuries are gifts from a Western culture whose fruits are watches and Cadillacs," a spokesman explained.[87] In their view, the messiah had come as a king this time, rather than as a beggar.[71][88] Other premies asserted that he did not want the gifts, but that people gave them out of their love for him.[89] They saw Rawat's lifestyle as an example of a lila, or divine play, which held a mirror to the "money-crazed and contraption-collecting society" of the West.[90]" better.Momento (talk) 23:16, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
- Why don't we just go back to the version before you moved all this stuff around without any discussion or consensus? As for that other material, it appears related to the lifestyle issues, not to the Millennium festival. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:19, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
- It's much better the way it is, a short summary of Millennium without the cherry picked press conference question. It should never have been there in the first place.Momento (talk) 23:27, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
- That sentence concerned his explanation of the luxury automobiles. Though the question was asked at the festival press conference, it was otherwise unassociated with it. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:21, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
- A separate section on Millennium makes sense when you remove the interview paragraph. Better balance and reduces to over emphasis on money.Momento (talk) 21:43, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
Managerial mentality?
To me, the sentence which begins, "He described the managerial mentality in the Mission..." makes little sense in the light of what follows. Does it mean the mentality that made people think management was necessary? Or the way they were going about it? Or the people themselves? Does anyone have the source for context? Rumiton (talk) 14:24, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
- In a positive sense - the mind-set neded to run a complex organization. In a negative context, see Dilbert. Collect (talk) 15:03, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
Shorten this article
- Several people have suggested shortening this article. I'd like to start by removing the entire reception section. Anything a value can be incorporated in the article. "Media" can easily be incorporated, "Charisma and Leadership" belongs in a text book, not here; and "Following" is mainly a bunch of conflicting data and generic.Momento (talk) 07:34, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
- Who are these people suggesting that the article should be shortened? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:59, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
- Several people have suggested shortening this article. I'd like to start by removing the entire reception section. Anything a value can be incorporated in the article. "Media" can easily be incorporated, "Charisma and Leadership" belongs in a text book, not here; and "Following" is mainly a bunch of conflicting data and generic.Momento (talk) 07:34, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
- I strongly disagree. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 16:30, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
- Why do you disagreee?--Pedrero (talk) 03:03, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
- Let's start with the Reception section. I've relocated Downton to where it belongs and removed the Melton which is already used earlier. Is there anything in "Reception" of any value? I don't think so.Momento (talk) 21:51, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
- The "reception" section, or something like it, is required by NPOV. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:09, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
WP:IDONTLIKEIT --Francis Schonken (talk) 06:48, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
- WP:IDONTLIKEIT makes a number of good points, among the more definitive of which is ...it is important to realize that countering the keep or delete arguments of other people by simply referring them to this essay is not encouraged. It goes on to suggest more compelling reasons to consider when pondering if content should be kept or removed. WP:BLP, WP:RS and so forth. Over to you. Rumiton (talk) 13:10, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
- There is zero point from an encyclopedic point in having a source say - "I didn't like it but others did". Particularly some one like Kent.Momento (talk) 09:01, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
- I have just been looking at Charisma and Leadership, trying to figure if any of it might be relevant to this biography and notable enough for inclusion. There doesn't seem to be much. It seems to be mainly a bunch of speculative hypotheses on the general nature of leadership, with allusions to possible claims possibly made by such leaders and the difficulties those claims might create, with no reliable sources telling us that the subject of this article ever made those claims or experienced those difficulties. Then there are contradictory statements, "on the one hand" and "on the other hand" type stuff, the result being near incoherency. Let's toss it. Rumiton (talk) 13:31, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
- I once again object to any substantial edits being made on this article without prior discussion here. I don't care that "some people" want the article shortened. It most likely cannot be shortened to satisfy "some." There is much too much sourced material that gives context to this article to just start chopping away at it willy nilly. Besides, the "puff" isn't being removed, quite the contrary, the "puff" is staying and the context and important truths about Rawat are being removed. Please discuss edits here first. Remember, this article is still on probation. Sylviecyn (talk) 00:20, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
- What, precisely, do you feel is essential which is not in other articles? This, as I understand it, is supposed to be his biography, not a theological opus nor a list of his faults enumerated one by one. As there is no sign of any editwar going on, I doubt that the "probation" of this article is an impediment to improving the article. Collect (talk) 21:18, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
- If you'd like the probation to be lifted then you'll need to apply to the ArbCom, the entity that put the topic on probation. See Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Prem Rawat. As for what's essential to this article, that's the same as for any article - it should summarize what reliable sources say about the subject using the neutral point of view, giving appropriate weight to each issue. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:40, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
- What, precisely, do you feel is essential which is not in other articles? This, as I understand it, is supposed to be his biography, not a theological opus nor a list of his faults enumerated one by one. As there is no sign of any editwar going on, I doubt that the "probation" of this article is an impediment to improving the article. Collect (talk) 21:18, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
- I once again object to any substantial edits being made on this article without prior discussion here. I don't care that "some people" want the article shortened. It most likely cannot be shortened to satisfy "some." There is much too much sourced material that gives context to this article to just start chopping away at it willy nilly. Besides, the "puff" isn't being removed, quite the contrary, the "puff" is staying and the context and important truths about Rawat are being removed. Please discuss edits here first. Remember, this article is still on probation. Sylviecyn (talk) 00:20, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
Schnabel=Babble
To do the poor chap justice he has probably been badly translated, but I agree. The resulting gibberish has no place here. Rumiton (talk) 14:16, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
Nice edits
Good going, Collect. The article looks better already. Rumiton (talk) 14:20, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
- Long way to go. And I hope no one gets offended by my edit summaries <g>. Collect (talk) 14:23, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
- Let's tackle "Charisma and leadership" next. The last thing we should have is a slimmed down article with a fat "Charisma".Momento (talk) 19:51, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
- And "Following" could got straight to the DLM article.Momento (talk) 20:10, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
- Moved Pilarzyk to DLM as it was about the movement, not Rawat.Momento (talk) 20:56, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
- Following on from Collect, I've reduced the lead. Primarily removing the sentence about organization to keep the focus on Rawat. Removed Shri Hans and gave greater emphasis to the explosive growth of Rawat and DLM in the west.Momento (talk) 21:18, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
- I object to all of these edits being made without discussion beforehand. This is once again becoming another sanitized, hagiographical revision of Prem Rawat's life. What Rawat teaches isn't even mentioned in the lede -- Knowledge -- and Shri Hans, the most important part of the origin of Rawat's becoming a guru has been deleted from the lede. So much context is being removed. Please have the courtesy to discuss your edits before making them in the future. Thanks Sylviecyn (talk) 00:13, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
- In the 39 edits since WillBeback's last edit the majority have been small grammar changes and relocating within the article. The only material removed that is no longer in the article in some other place is either irrelevant or, as Collect terms, puff. From THE LEAD ""His tens of thousands of followers in the West see themselves as adherents of a system of teachings that extol the goal of enjoying life to the full" puff. From LEAVING INDIA "One secretary accepted responsibility for the valuables and another for failing to declare them" irrelevant. From AMERICA 1973 "One of the assailants was eventually identified as Mahatma Fakiranand, one of the first mahatmas designated by Rawat and described as his "number one disciple" being discussed elsewhere. From COMING OF AGE "What do you expect him to do," a premie said, "travel from LA. to Houston on a donkey?"" puff. "After scaling down the DLM's activities in the early 1980s, Rawat created the North American Sponsorship Program to help pay for the property" irrelevant. From TEACHINGS "and says that "Knowledge" will take "all your senses that have been going outside all your life, turn them around and put them inside to feel and to actually experience you." puff & "Knowledge, roughly translated, means the happiness of the true self-understanding. Each individual should seek to comprehend his or her true self, which brings a sense of well-being, joy and harmony. The Knowledge includes four meditation procedures: Light, Music, Nectar and Word. The process of reaching the true self within can only be achieved by the individual, but with the guidance and help of a teacher. Hence, the movement seems to embrace aspects of world-rejection and world-affirmation. The tens of thousands of followers in the West do not see themselves as members of a religion, but the adherents of a system of teachings that extol the goal of enjoying life to the full." puff. From RECEPTION - Pilarzyk about DLM relocated to DLM and Kent because it means nothing. From MEDIA - "Media reports were unfavorable and many of the people who were antagonistic toward Rawat and the movement were ill informed and not interested in learning how his followers might be benefiting from his teachings. Downton gives an example of a woman who told him "'I can't stand the boy guru' but all she knew was what she read in the newspapers, she had never met or talked at length to a premie" already covered elsewhere & examples of media & Words of Peace, a television series based on speeches by Rawat, was broadcast internationally, and received several Brazilian community television awards". From FOLLOWERS - lots of membership figures that belong in DLM and Schnabel which is unimportant. Perhaps you can explain how this deleted material "sanitizes" RawatMomento (talk) 04:31, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
- This article blew out outrageously some time ago, and entirely without discussion as to relevance. The only justification seemed to be "These are reputable sources" and "Length doesn't matter... this is not a paper encyclopedia." Now that time has allowed some perspective the puff on both sides is becoming clear, as are the examples of uninspired writing. Btw, my dictionary gives sanitise as create the conditions necessary for good health. A healthy article is surely a good thing. Rumiton (talk) 07:27, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
- Sylviecyn, if the article right now seems promotional to you, then please make suggestions that will help neutralise it, but without sending it back in the direction of snide insinuations and slanted wording we have seen in the past. We have seen that this only invites more of the opposite as payback, which gets us more of the nastiness, and the downward spiral continues. A new day dawns. Yes. Rumiton (talk) 12:44, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
- This article blew out outrageously some time ago, and entirely without discussion as to relevance. The only justification seemed to be "These are reputable sources" and "Length doesn't matter... this is not a paper encyclopedia." Now that time has allowed some perspective the puff on both sides is becoming clear, as are the examples of uninspired writing. Btw, my dictionary gives sanitise as create the conditions necessary for good health. A healthy article is surely a good thing. Rumiton (talk) 07:27, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
Rawat speaks
- This article is about someone who is notable for leaving home to travel the world spreading his message. Without the material Will deleted and I have now re-instated you could be forgiven for thinking he spent the 70s in Malibu. A Rawat article without mentioning where he travelled and independent first hand perception of his talks is a grave disservice to our readers.Momento (talk) 00:48, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
- We need reliable sources. Cagan is not a reliable source. His speeches are his techings, which belong in the "teachings" article. If you want to include one impression of his speaking style then you shold also include the Hunt impression, which you deleted. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:54, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
- Cagan is reliable for non contentious material as agreed by all. I think you mean Kent and his remarks are useless since it says - I though it stupid, others though it great. This is exactly the puff that should be removed.Momento (talk) 01:01, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
- Please point to this agreement. If we're going to remove Kent then remove the Levy bit too. It's just fluff. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:22, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
- Cagan has been quoted in this article for months. You can put Kent back in if you like. It's a ridiculous quote that adds nothing.Momento (talk) 01:41, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
- I've moved the speech, etc, to the "Teachings" article, and added Kent there. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:31, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
- I've re-inserted the travel info which you also removed. And the important and rare first hand description of Rawat. People, and I include you Will, need to know what Rawat was like from a neutral POV. Momento (talk) 01:41, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
- Kent is a first-hand view too, one who gives a different point of view. Include both or neither. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:43, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
- Kent is first hand but adds nothing. "I didn't like it, my companions did". Can you explain how that advances anyone's understanding of Rawat. I can't see it.Momento (talk) 01:45, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
- He is currently, by profession, an inspirational speaker. Levy says his speaking style is humble, Kent says it is banal. Both perspectives add to the readers knowledge of the subject's speaking and teaching style. NPOV requires that we include all significant points of view. Kent is a scholar while Levy is, what? Further, if we're going to add an assertion that he says he isn't divine then we need to add a lot more information about that sticky wicket in order to give a complete picture. Right now it's too one-sided . ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:52, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
- Cagan is reliable for non contentious material as agreed by all. I think you mean Kent and his remarks are useless since it says - I though it stupid, others though it great. This is exactly the puff that should be removed.Momento (talk) 01:01, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
Maybe you both should consider to take a much needed break from this article? I have reverted to the last edit by Collect. Please stop your tit-for-tat edits and remember that the article is under probation. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:23, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
- Reverting isn't helpful Jossi. Can you please give an explanation for your edit? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 02:26, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
- If Jossi doesn't explain his revert of many edits then I'll undo it. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:44, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
- Ah, I see rather than explain he reverted himself. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:13, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
- And the article has returned to the pile of contradictory gibberish it was before. Let's see what happens next. Rumiton (talk) 13:08, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
- Most of the meterial I removed is fully covered in other articles. There is no need for this article to attain the status of an elephant in WP <g>. And making it a camel buy adding bits and oeces of puff and counter-puff is not the way to go in my opinion. Collect (talk) 14:05, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
- Collect, it seems to me you are a genuinely neutral voice, perhaps the only one around here. Puff and counter-puff has long been the bane of this group of articles. I hope you have long legs. Rumiton (talk) 14:12, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
- OK, now this is looking good to me, neutral and informative, without the sensationalist 1970s news reporting that always has to be debunked when the fuller picture comes in. The only problem I see is that now it is looking like a press release, and I sincerely ask for the help of all in further neutralising the tone of this article. Rumiton (talk) 14:27, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
- Collect, it seems to me you are a genuinely neutral voice, perhaps the only one around here. Puff and counter-puff has long been the bane of this group of articles. I hope you have long legs. Rumiton (talk) 14:12, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
Collect, could you please explain why you restored this text, and why it doesn't count as "puff"?
- Rawat returned to England and the United States in June and in August he spoke in Boston to a crowd of 9,000. [46][47] A reporter described Rawat as "...a real human being. He spoke humbly, conversationally, and without any apparent notion that he was God. In fact he seemed to consciously undercut the divine stage show and the passionate words said in his honor. Devotees and mahatmas speak of him as the guy who will out-Christ Christ, yet the guru himself claims, not that he is divine, but that his Knowledge is".[48] Sociologist James Downton said that from his early beginnings Rawat appealed to his followers to give up concepts and beliefs that might impede them from fully experiencing the "Knowledge" or life force, but this did not prevent them from adopting a fairly rigid set of ideas about his divinity, and to project millennial preconceptions onto him and the movement.[49]
The material appears to be to a one-sided assessment of the subject, and a non-biographical assessment of his teachings. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:17, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
- I would appreciate definitions of "puff" and "fluff, from Rumiton, Collect, and Momento,please, because I think we're talking about completely different things when using those terms. :) It's time to reinstate the "Criticism of Prem Rawat" article, if this kind of whitewashing of history is going to continue. I strongly encourage everyone to start specific discussions about any future edits prior to making the actual edits -- that's how it was done during mediation. Btw, I don't agree that Cagan's book is acceptable for anything in this article. I consider Cagan's book to be a paid-for piece of work by a Hack writer and definitely not a bona fide biography with chapter notes, and source notations, as any reputable biography will contain, plus it's filled with factual errors and omissions as was well-demonstrated during informal mediation. By the way, here's the latest fundraising effort by Elan Vital, U.S. and by The Priyan Foundation which is the entity that owns and operates Prem Rawat's private Gulfstream 550 jet. Sylviecyn (talk) 18:28, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
- "Puff" includes effusive praise of a subject, and material which is of trivial importance in a biography of a living person. "Counter-puff" includes criticism about minutia in a person's life, and categorizing the person in a negative light. WP is not a theological debating society. It is intended to have encyclopedia-quality articles. If you would like to debate a reference, then do so. Categorizing a reference as being by a "hack writer" does not, alas, meet the criteria for finding a book to not be a "reliable source." News about fundraising should probably be found in the articles about the organizations. Collect (talk) 22:53, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
- In that case, please discontinue using those terms and use better descriptive terms in the future to describe your edits because "puff" and "fluff" are not descriptive for purposes of English, and certainly are not defined in any English Language dictionaries as you described above. I may be old-fashioned but I still go by Websters and other dictionaries to get definitions of English words in order to use them correctly, and I'm definitely not willing to try to decipher what your or others' made-up definitions may or may not be. Therefore, if you use those terms in the future, I'll be reverting each of your edits that don't have commonly understandable edit summaries. Btw, I'm not debating theology, so don't accuse me of doing that. Moreover, it's my opinion that Cagan didn't write a credible biography of Rawat, based on all of my own and others' research on the book, as well as many lengthy discussions over the past twelve months about it. It's not necessary to reinvent the wheel here by rehashing the subject of Cagan's credibility again. That's why I suggested to you that you take some time to review the talk archives of each article,the ARBCOM case, as well as the mediation discussion pages and proposed edits there. To get you started, Please read Mediation Cabal/Cases/2008-04-20 Prem Rawat, and Issue Topic D: Cagan for previous discussion regarding Cagan's book. Based on those and many other discussions, I won't be convinced that Cagan is a reliable source for anything in this article. That's simply not a happening thing. Happy reading! Thanks! :) Sylviecyn (talk) 23:53, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
- RHD " a commendation, esp. an exaggerated one, of a book, an actor's performance, etc. " AHD: "a. An approving or flattering recommendation. b. A piece of writing, as on the jacket of a book, containing often exaggerated praise, used for promotional purposes. " Also "O.E. pyffian "an act of puffing," of imitative origin. Used of small swellings and round protuberances since 1538. Meaning "type of light pastry" is recorded from 1419; that of "small pad for applying powder to skin or hair" is from 1658. Figurative sense of "flattery, inflated praise" is first recorded 1732. Puffy "swollen" is from 1664. Puff-ball, type of fungus, is from 1649; puffer, type of fish, is from 1814." So "puff" is, indeed, found in dictionaries with the meanings used here. As for threats of reversion, such does not meet any WP guidelines I have found. Lastly as for your vaunted cite, I have not added any ref from Cagan, so I fail to see why that ref suddenly becomes important when, if anything, I have tried to remove unneeded material here. BTW, the cites from Cagan appear to be non-controversial (dates and the like) can you show me an objectionable use in the article so we can address it? Thanks! Collect (talk) 11:46, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks. I knew that. My point is that "puff" and "fluff" terms are far too ambiguous for anyone's use when editing this particular article and calling this or that "puff" or "fluff" is so subjective on this article that using them as edit summaries renders them useless. I trust you take some time to read at least some of the talk page archives, as well as all of the scholarly material which is linked at the top of this page in order to familiarize yourself with the subject of this article. It's important that you do so, imo, because you admit that you know little about this subject. That fact doesn't make you more neutral, it only makes you uninformed should you choose to ignore previous discussions, which admittedly are lengthy. This is an encyclopedia, after all, which deals with writing sourced facts. Btw, this article is very well-sourced. So, I ask that before you do anymore editing, you follow Jayen's example below by offering revisions here prior to making them on the article. Btw, I do like the way you edit, in terms of rewriting awkward text to make it more reader-friendly -- you do an exceptional job at that, but please don't remove important information in the process, for example, as you did in the Charisma section. Hope this explains my position. Thanks! (FYI, Jossi is a man.) Sylviecyn (talk) 13:24, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
- I have generally used "puff" as it is a specific word, and no one else said they did not know what it meant. I have gone through the archives enough to see how the article got to here. I read enough (well, I do not read Dutch well) to recognize why all those sociologists were used ... they have books which can be cited as reliable sources, whether or not the material actually improves an article's clarity. They were placed in a strange attempt to give criticism strong weight when some were fighting against anything smacking of criticism. The resulting give-and-take resulted in the "camel" we had. This camel is now down 20% in size (more or less) and can lose more weight without affecting the value of the article (I would argue that criticism which is unreadable is not very strong at all - and important or not, if people do not understand what is being said, it becomes unimportant totally). Collect (talk) 13:44, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
- In that case, please discontinue using those terms and use better descriptive terms in the future to describe your edits because "puff" and "fluff" are not descriptive for purposes of English, and certainly are not defined in any English Language dictionaries as you described above. I may be old-fashioned but I still go by Websters and other dictionaries to get definitions of English words in order to use them correctly, and I'm definitely not willing to try to decipher what your or others' made-up definitions may or may not be. Therefore, if you use those terms in the future, I'll be reverting each of your edits that don't have commonly understandable edit summaries. Btw, I'm not debating theology, so don't accuse me of doing that. Moreover, it's my opinion that Cagan didn't write a credible biography of Rawat, based on all of my own and others' research on the book, as well as many lengthy discussions over the past twelve months about it. It's not necessary to reinvent the wheel here by rehashing the subject of Cagan's credibility again. That's why I suggested to you that you take some time to review the talk archives of each article,the ARBCOM case, as well as the mediation discussion pages and proposed edits there. To get you started, Please read Mediation Cabal/Cases/2008-04-20 Prem Rawat, and Issue Topic D: Cagan for previous discussion regarding Cagan's book. Based on those and many other discussions, I won't be convinced that Cagan is a reliable source for anything in this article. That's simply not a happening thing. Happy reading! Thanks! :) Sylviecyn (talk) 23:53, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
- Collect, you restored the paragraph I cite above, even though it seems to fit your description of "puff". Can you explain why you restored it? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:21, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
- Also, please explain why you reverted many edits here: [4]. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:25, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
- I reverted on person only -- jossi had reverted to my last version, reverted self, and so I reverted back to the last version I did. Not "many edits" at all. I trust this is clear. Collect (talk) 11:46, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
- No, it's not clear. You haven't said why you reverted. And you still haven't answered the specific question of why you restored the cited paragraph. I'm having trouble figuring out why Helen Jones-Kelley[5] is being edited so differently from this article. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 12:16, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
- I reverted because jossi had sound reasons for her reversion. I did not get rid of "many" edits, and I trust my neutral postion here is unquestioned. And for some odd reason if I revert, I do not then make lots of other edits at the same time. As for any other article, would you like the full talk pages inserted here? In that case, there is an editor who deletes almost everything critical of J-K, while adding puff for her, (including deletion of her political party <g>). In this article there remains a fulsome amount of critical commentary related to a BLP. I happen to think that critical commentary of his movements belong in those articles, while criticism of him in this article has not been removed. The ideal of a BLP is "NPOV" and I will gladly push against any editor who pushes POV to the detriment of the article. Collect (talk) 12:46, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
- Every editor is responsible for his or her edits. Reverting because some other editor momentarily thought it a good idea doesn't absolve responsibility for the edit. If Jossi had good reasons for making and then undoing an edit let him explain them himself. NPOV does not mean that the article is neutral balanced between negative and positive. It means that all significant viewpoints are presented using the neutral point of view. If there is more negative material written about a subject then we include more negative material on the subject. In the cases of [[Helen Jones-Kelley] and Prem Rawat, there are many negative remarks in reliable sources. We would be violating WP:NPOV if we didn't give them sufficient weight. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 12:54, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
- And the edit you accused me of making (the paragraph which was there when I edited before) was not an accurate claim against my edits, which are uniformly based on removing puff and counter-puff. As for saying that incomprehensible material is somehow balancing of anything, I think the comments in thatsection don't mean anything to most readers. Can you find actual readable sources for criticism of Rawat directly? Collect (talk) 13:35, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
- Every editor is responsible for his or her edits. Reverting because some other editor momentarily thought it a good idea doesn't absolve responsibility for the edit. If Jossi had good reasons for making and then undoing an edit let him explain them himself. NPOV does not mean that the article is neutral balanced between negative and positive. It means that all significant viewpoints are presented using the neutral point of view. If there is more negative material written about a subject then we include more negative material on the subject. In the cases of [[Helen Jones-Kelley] and Prem Rawat, there are many negative remarks in reliable sources. We would be violating WP:NPOV if we didn't give them sufficient weight. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 12:54, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
- I reverted because jossi had sound reasons for her reversion. I did not get rid of "many" edits, and I trust my neutral postion here is unquestioned. And for some odd reason if I revert, I do not then make lots of other edits at the same time. As for any other article, would you like the full talk pages inserted here? In that case, there is an editor who deletes almost everything critical of J-K, while adding puff for her, (including deletion of her political party <g>). In this article there remains a fulsome amount of critical commentary related to a BLP. I happen to think that critical commentary of his movements belong in those articles, while criticism of him in this article has not been removed. The ideal of a BLP is "NPOV" and I will gladly push against any editor who pushes POV to the detriment of the article. Collect (talk) 12:46, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
- No, it's not clear. You haven't said why you reverted. And you still haven't answered the specific question of why you restored the cited paragraph. I'm having trouble figuring out why Helen Jones-Kelley[5] is being edited so differently from this article. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 12:16, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
- I reverted on person only -- jossi had reverted to my last version, reverted self, and so I reverted back to the last version I did. Not "many edits" at all. I trust this is clear. Collect (talk) 11:46, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Undiscussed deletions
I agree with Will's revert, and was just about to revert myself. We can't just jettison the entire scholarly reception. Cheers, Jayen466 12:04, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
[E/C] I reverted the deletion of the "Charisma and leadership" section.[6] Deleting neutral, sourced content can be tantamount to vandalism. Please make a reasonable attempt to discuss and get consensus for major changes to the article. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 12:07, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
- No problem -- it needed major pruning and hopefully oinly acrtually relevant stuff will get put in. And parts were literally unreadable. As for all the stuff being "neutral" -- I could not tell what it was saying, so there was no way for anyone to tell how neutral it was at all. Lastly AGF instead of making asides about "vandalism." Another editor might miscomprehend your point. Collect (talk) 12:28, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
- May I ask: how many of these sources have you read? There appear to be cases where things are getting deleted because an editor isn't sure what the point is or whether the material is presented neutrally. None of the material in this article is irrelevant to Prem Rawat, so that's not a reason to delete anything. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 12:34, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
- Only a bit using Google book search. Enough to doubt the actual relevance of such stuff in a BLP to be sure. And where the material is incomprehensible to a college graduate, I suspect that it is incomprehensible to most other people. The article is, as I stated, a "camel" (a horse designed by a committee). Schnabel, for example, is in Dutch. WP guidelines state that English is the language of these articles, and that foreign lanhuage sources without translations should be avoided. So I did not read Schnabel, and I doubt many readers here did either. you did either. McGuire's text does not primarily deal with DLM, and is likely overused here. And so on -- the refs are primarily to the religion and not to the person. I trust the tweaks will be satisfactory. Collect (talk) 12:59, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
- May I ask: how many of these sources have you read? There appear to be cases where things are getting deleted because an editor isn't sure what the point is or whether the material is presented neutrally. None of the material in this article is irrelevant to Prem Rawat, so that's not a reason to delete anything. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 12:34, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Rewrite
How about this rewrite? It loses a stranded sentence sourced to Mcguire, and straightens out Schnabel a bit.
Melton refers to Rawat's personal charisma as one of the reasons for the rapid spread of his message among members of the 1960s counterculture.[7] The Dutch sociologist Paul Schnabel described Rawat as a pure example of a charismatic leader. He characterized Rawat as materialistic, pampered and intellectually unremarkable compared to Osho, but no less charismatic. Schnabel remarks that although Rawat's charisma was originally a routinized form of charisma resulting from hereditary succession, this aspect played a negligible role in the Western context, where he saw Prem Rawat's charisma primarily as the result of careful staging supported by an entire organization dedicated to that purpose.[8]
Lucy DuPertuis, a sociologist and follower who assisted James V. Downton with his book about the Divine Light Mission, described Rawat's role as a Master as emerging from three interrelated phenomena: traditional or theological definitions of Satguru, adherents' first-hand experiences of the Master, and communal accounts and discussions of the Master among devotees. Her ultimate assertion is that imputation of charisma is an active, conscious, changing process which, in this context, involves non-cognitive modes of perception. She also observed that Rawat's charisma did not prevent some devotees from discovering that they had learned the "experience of God" on their own, and to drift away, not in disillusionment but in fulfillment.[9] Jayen466 12:12, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
- Still a "Huh?" section. Perhaps:
- Rawat's personal charisma is cited by Melton as one of the reasons for the rapid spread of his movement in the 1960s counterculture.[7] Dutch sociologist Paul Schnabel described Rawat as a pure example of a charismatic leader, as well as materialistic, pampered and intellectually unremarkable. He says that although Rawat's charisma was originally a routinized form of charisma from hereditary succession, this aspect was unimportant in the Western context. He said Rawat's charisma primarily was the result of careful staging supported by an entire organization dedicated to that purpose.[8]
- Lucy DuPertuis, a sociologist and follower who assisted James V. Downton with his book about the Divine Light Mission, described Rawat's role as a Master as emerging from three interrelated phenomena: traditional or theological definitions of Satguru, adherents' first-hand experiences of the Master, and communal accounts and discussions of the Master among devotees. She asserts that imputation of charisma is an active, conscious, changing process which involves non-cognitive modes of perception. [9]
- "..appears to be possibly pertinent" seems about right. One of the tests of pertinence that seems valid to me is to try to paraphrase a sentence. I can't do that with either of the above, in either Jayen's or your version. They are linguistic dead-ends, which to me says there is something wrong with them, either the original writing or the translation. Where can I find Tussen stigma en charisma: in the original to check it? It doesn't seem to be on the internet. Rumiton (talk) 12:51, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think your Dutch is the problem. My German is fairly reasonable and the languages are not dissimilar, but I still can't understand what this translation is trying to say. Rumiton (talk) 13:04, 1 December 2008 (UTC) Looking at it again, the brain gets tangled trying to sort out what the author means by the word "charisma." The Oxford says, "Divinely conferred power or talent; capacity to inspire followers with devotion and enthusiasm." The German word is similar, and similarly positive in tone, but maybe it means something a bit different in Dutch, as what follows materialistic, pampered and intellectually unremarkable and stage-managed doesn't sit with charismatic at all. Bad sentences like this don't add to anyone's understanding of the subject, unless they can be radically rephrased. Anyone care to try again? Rumiton (talk) 13:38, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
- ^ "The Keys, by Maharaji".
- ^ "Maharaji in North America".
- ^ "NAM Frequently Asked Questions: "Knowledge"". Retrieved 2008-11-20.
- ^ "Guru's Pupil Slates Talk", SYRACUSE POST-STANDARD Feb. 3,1973. p. 3
- ^ "Gifts for a guru". AP, THE STARS AND STRIPES November 15, 1972. p.4
- ^ Downton (1979), pp. 187-8
- ^ a b Partridge (2004)
- ^ a b Cite error: The named reference
Schnabel1982
was invoked but never defined (see the help page). - ^ a b Cite error: The named reference
DuPertuis1986
was invoked but never defined (see the help page).