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:::::::::honestly, if I had kids I'd do the same thing. I'm just worried about using wikipedia to impose that as a norm for everyone. and if you find any good phrases, let me know. I swear, I have a French soul trapped in an American's mind, which I'm pretty sure constitutes a new circle of hell. {{=)|biggrin}} --[[User_talk:Ludwigs2|<span style="color:darkblue;font-weight:bold">Ludwigs</span><span style="color:green;font-weight:bold">2</span>]] 17:39, 6 September 2011 (UTC) |
:::::::::honestly, if I had kids I'd do the same thing. I'm just worried about using wikipedia to impose that as a norm for everyone. and if you find any good phrases, let me know. I swear, I have a French soul trapped in an American's mind, which I'm pretty sure constitutes a new circle of hell. {{=)|biggrin}} --[[User_talk:Ludwigs2|<span style="color:darkblue;font-weight:bold">Ludwigs</span><span style="color:green;font-weight:bold">2</span>]] 17:39, 6 September 2011 (UTC) |
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:::::::::Littleolive, I think your view is more the norm than you think, especially outside some parts of the US. Most northern European countries would have no problem at all with the nude image and even the relatively prudish UK would find the nude image quite appropriate for educating children. [[User:Martin Hogbin|Martin Hogbin]] ([[User talk:Martin Hogbin|talk]]) 17:41, 6 September 2011 (UTC) |
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== Copyright issues == |
== Copyright issues == |
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Hormonal changes
Under the subtopic Hormonal Changes it states "Levels of progesterone and oestrogens rise continually throughout pregnancy, making the mother a huge bitch and suppressing the hypothalamic axis and subsequently the menstrual cycle. The woman and the placenta also produce many hormones." Is this a professional opinion? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.194.130.145 (talk • contribs) 04:12, 7 April 2009
Once again, image in lead
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Image 1
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- I know Wikipedia is WP:NOTCENSORED. But can we use some common sense here? I imagine there are some pretty young kids researching for school reports who are going to find the image shocking. Perhaps we can move that image further down or make a gallery section? NYyankees51 (talk) 20:56, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
Which image? The profile shot of an apparently naked pregnant woman? Are you serious? Can you explain why it would be shocking to someone researching pregnancy, apart from yourself? Greglocock (talk) 21:10, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
Yeah I agree - that person has GOT to be kidding... "Shocking?" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.127.212.149 (talk) 05:07, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- Yes we have discussed this a lot before. Opinion is fairly divided. Some feel that image 1 is simply a better image with as much educational content. I also consider image 3 and 4 to also be superior. That moving image two to latter in the article would improve the page. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 21:27, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
- 2 3 or 4 make sense. I'll leave the aesthetics to those who care. Woman modelling maternity blouse (image 1) is not a useful representation of the article's subject. Greglocock (talk) 21:35, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
- Ideally four would be placed side by side and have the background changed to white. But this one provides both an AP and L of pregnancy. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 21:48, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
- Human pregnancy is not only clinical. A first picture, like the one in place now, running parallel to the lead in the article, that like a lead gives a sense of the overarching aspects of the topic/pregnancy, and that includes a recognizable human being and her responses to her child, is both emotional and clinical (ie, human), more inclusive than "headless" images, and carries more information. Not sure why that should be changed. There may be room for most of the other photos later in the article (olive (talk) 21:51, 16 March 2011 (UTC))
- I came here from the RfC listing, and I actually don't care very much which image is used. But reading olive's comment just above mine, it occurs to me that Image 1 has the advantage of putting the emphasis on those overarching aspects, whereas the others focus more narrowly on the clinical aspects. I don't buy the argument made above that it is just modeling apparel. After all, pregnant women do not typically spend their pregnancies walking around naked. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:20, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
- This has been going on for years. Every so often, someone gets all sensitive and worries about the kiddies seeing a naked woman and then we all have to bow down to their worries and discuss the issue all over again. Where do kids think they came out of? Oh horror! Olive is right. Pregnancy is not a clinical condition but a human one. Image 2 has been the consensus image for the past few years. There is no reason to change it now. Gillyweed (talk) 22:50, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
- Pregnancy affects the entire body and those changes are not visible with clothing...This is a consensus version and unless there is a clear new consensus I can't see a change is appropriate... As an aside: you'd be surprised at what pregnant women get up to when they've put on 40 pounds and they're carrying a kicking ten pound basket ball around on their fronts.(olive (talk) 23:00, 16 March 2011 (UTC))
- Different cultures, as well as different families' moral beliefs and religious beliefs consider different things to be offensive. While I don't see any reason to change this image, I also don't see any reason why it would be silly not to. If people determine there is enough need to change the image, which is clearly scientific in nature, then sure, change it. Many families do not teach their children about sex and differences between the bodies at an early age. So yes, it would be shocking for these children. There is also an issue that nobody can look at this article in public, even if it is purely clinical. A topic that is more safe--pregnancy--doesn't have to have a nude subject. Unlike looking up different sexual organs, which most people are smart enough not to look up in public. Most kids only learn about the intricacies when parents discuss it with them. I am talking about children under the age of ten, of course, and you would be surprised how young children are when they start surfing the net.
- In any event, the point of the matter in this instance is more adults who find it offensive. But because this photo is clearly clinical, the photo itself has no issues. Now its use in the article is debatable, and Wikipedians who might not want to see this article in public are limited because the only answer is, "Don't look at WP in public." --Henriettapussycat (talk) 16:13, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
- On this subject, I have to agree totally with the argument made above stating that an article on human pregnancy should focus on more than clinical aspects of the subject. Neither image is ideal in this situation, but I think that Images 2,3 and 4 should not be used because they do not provide a complete image of the social aspects of pregnancy (as mentioned by Tryptofish). Furthermore, I believe that using images 2/3/4 may cause readers to look at human pregnancy purely from a medical aspect. Parakoopa72 (talk) 05:01, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- I'm not sure how the addition of a piece of clothing is overarching or gives any kind of information. By 'overarching', I meant a picture in which much of the body can be seen with the physical changes pregnancy induces, as well the emotional aspect - the woman's obvious emotional connection to the child she carries. Covering the body leaves us with a shirt with a bump, and that bump could be anything. Pregnancy is about the human body. If we want an article on 'foot', how could we see the foot, and know what it looks like with a shoe on it.(olive (talk) 19:44, 17 March 2011 (UTC))
- I came back here to see if there were any response to my comment, and I guess I have to agree with the observation that different editors find the same justification leading to different images, and that's indeed quite ironic. Anyway, please do take to heart what I said about me not really feeling strongly about this at all. Please don't let what I said have too much influence on what you decide. Happy editing! --Tryptofish (talk) 23:23, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- Image 2 is a perfect representation of a pregnant woman. It is in no way prurient. It should stay. Rebel1916 (talk) 20:32, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
- There is no profanity in any of the later 3 images. These images depict the natural condition of pregnancy (external manifestation, physical changes, etc), to which image 1 alone would not be able to do justice. If these are to be removed based on argument of children visiting wikipedia, then much of the other contents of wikipedia needs to be deleted as well. There are wikipedia articles on human sexual activities, and even on various paraphilia. Wikipedia is not a children's encyclopedia. - Subh83 (talk | contribs) 21:51, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
- Of course, there's no profanity, because profanity requires words. :) I think you meant obscenity. But I agree with you, if we're worried about children, then we'd have to censor 75% of the project. Not going to happen. I believe that there have been discussions about this photo for five years (give or take). Unless there's a substantial consensus to remove it or change it, this discussion is a huge waste of time. There will never be a change, unless there's a significant change in policy regarding images of nudes, or this image is in violation of Wikipedia's licensing rules. Seriously, this discussion is inane, and there are so many other things to be done with this article. Someone below suggested adding stuff about subsequent pregnancies. That's more useful. But I'm sure someone in the future will come here complaining about the photo, and we'll spend tons of bandwidth discussing it, and nothing will change. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 22:00, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
- I recommend putting Image 1 in the lead and Image 2 under ==Second trimester==, along with a more complete description of the changes to the mother's body during that time. Someone recently used the phrase "adolescent glee" to describe the attitudes of some editors who argue for the most prominent possible placement of nudity, and that resonates with me. Just because we can (and IMO should) include this image somewhere in the article does not mean that we should make it be the first and largest image—or that we should have zero images of pregnant women who aren't in a state of undress. If you want to present pregnancy as a part of normal life, then showing exclusively images of women who are undressed isn't the way to go about it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:29, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
- I have and continue to support the inclusion of many controversial images (including ones of nudity ). However completely agree with WhatamIdoing's comments here and her suggestion. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 04:40, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
- I like Image 2, it's fine. Image 1 is OK too. Images 3 & 4, enh, they're OK too but not as aesthetically pleasing in my opinion. I do kind of want to support Image 1 on these grounds: 1) snotty teenagers are not pleasing to me, and 2) their jejune attitudes and tiresome insults are not helpful to the the Wikipedia, in the sense of making for a better community and, ultimately, attracting and retaining editors, which 3) is important, and so 4) not rewarding this kind of thing is a valid consideration. So take that as you will. From a purely technical standpoint, either 1 or 2 are fine. I slightly prefer 2. I don't have a problem with the nudity in this context. Herostratus (talk) 06:41, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
- I came here from the RFC. Image 2 is the best, clearest, and most succinct, and it should therefore be the first and most prominent one. I really don't think considerations of "adolescent glee" do or should enter into it. Oreo Priest talk 01:12, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
- I fully support the use of such images in wikipedia, and in this article, but I feel that the nude image being right at the top of the article, and so prominent is a bad thing. It means that I really couldn't go on this wikipedia page at work, for example. It should absolutely be included, but further down the page, and less prominent. I really don't understand the logic of showing a nude image so blatantly in an article in which the female body is really only a secondary topic. The nell 87 (talk) 10:37, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
- Photograph 1 is clearly of much higher quality than the other photos. It looks professional — well composed, with even lighting, and a pleasant non-distracting background. Plus it's nice that it adds some racial diversity to the article (and Wikipedia). The other photographs look like low quality snapshots. Plus, the woman in the 2nd photo looks like she's only slightly pregnant (Yes, I know that is impossible) :) Kaldari (talk) 17:37, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
- The article for Woman doesn't start with a big picture of a naked woman. I vote for image 1. I've been pregnant, and I usually wore clothes. If people constantly raise issues with image 2 obviously it's a problem. --Spacefem (talk) 13:00, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
- Photograph 1 might be of higher quality but I feel that the main picture must show a naked abdomen, much like the current picture in the Third Semester section. Moreover as mentioned earlier, the picture should not be cropped below the head, we are not showing a clinical case as detailed by Olive. 82.66.206.198 (talk) 14:43, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
- for goodness sake, if its so much of an issue as to whether its actually an issue or not, just use a cross sectional line diagram instead of a photograph! --BuddhikaD (talk 14:11, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
- I'm not sure why the main image needs to be unsafe for work.--Scottandrewhutchins (talk) 21:04, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
- I'm of the mind that the only reason to use a picture of a nude woman is deliberately to seem more mature and "encyclopedic", as it provides no more information than that of a clothed woman. One might argue it's more difficult to discern breast size, but that's irrelevant if there are no before/after pictures, and even that could still be done with a clothed image. I agree that this is a topic likely to be researched by elementary-aged students. I see no reason to use this image (which is of fairly mediocre quality to begin with) when other, better images are available that cause absolutely no controversy. A clothed image focuses more on the mother and less on the physical change of her body, while still not hiding that. Saibh (talk) 05:16, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
- I agree it does seem to be an issue of nudity for nudities sake.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 05:30, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
- You're not going to be able to see typical breast changes even with before-and-after images. The typical change is half a cup size, which amounts to an increase of just 2cm in the total circumference. So unless you've worked in a lingerie department for so long that you can spot the difference between a 36B and a 38B bra size at a glance, then there are no typical images that will show you that level change. If we needed to illustrate it, we'd need to get a pair of images that showed abnormally large growth (which is not impossible: some women see zero change; others see dramatic change). WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:41, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
- I agree it does seem to be an issue of nudity for nudities sake.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 05:30, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what you are suggesting. There are multiple changes with pregnancy. I don't think a single picture can illustrate them all. I would think a best scenario is to have a picture that gives an overview for the reader first coming to the article just as the lead does, then move on to more specifics. (olive (talk) 03:04, 2 September 2011 (UTC))
- Agreed. The lead image doesn't have to cover all aspects of pregnancy. It should just show a high quality image of a typical pregnancy. It doesn't make any sense that the lead image be required to be nude (which seems to be the only reason anyone supports the current image). Why isn't anyone discussing the actual quality of the photographs? Kaldari (talk) 03:41, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
- Well, we do talk about it the poor technical qualities of the lead image, and everyone agrees that it has problems, but we have a couple of people who like its emotional content, and a couple of people who seem just determined that the article contain zero images of fully dressed women, so they don't really care about the poor lighting, etc.
- I'd like to see this one moved to ==Second trimester==, and use it to actually illustrate the content of the article, rather than merely to decorate the page. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:57, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
- Agreed. The lead image doesn't have to cover all aspects of pregnancy. It should just show a high quality image of a typical pregnancy. It doesn't make any sense that the lead image be required to be nude (which seems to be the only reason anyone supports the current image). Why isn't anyone discussing the actual quality of the photographs? Kaldari (talk) 03:41, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what you are suggesting. There are multiple changes with pregnancy. I don't think a single picture can illustrate them all. I would think a best scenario is to have a picture that gives an overview for the reader first coming to the article just as the lead does, then move on to more specifics. (olive (talk) 03:04, 2 September 2011 (UTC))
- No, kids are not going to find this image shocking at all. There is no reason to censor Wikipedia to cater to what amount to religious views. Wikipedia is one of the tamer places on the web, and anyone who wishes to censor their children's web viewing experience has software options to help them. The current image, image 2, has its problems, notably that it is of a white woman, when it should be of an Asian or Indian (per the percentage of world population), but it's apparently the best we have. Why do we show women undressed when discussing pregnancy? Because clothes serve to hide the subject matter, which is the state of the human body during pregnancy: they are therefore both irrelevant and detrimental to our description of the subject. Why do we keep the nude image at the top in the most prominent place? Because it is the best image we have to illustrate our description of the subject. Censorship, especially censorship which actually pretends that it's kids, not grownups, who are shocked by nudity, is inappropriate on Wikipedia. And no, woman does not start with a big picture of a naked woman: it starts with a small one. Keep image 2, per Gillyweed, Subh83, olive, et al. Be——Critical__Talk 15:21, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
- I don't find the image sexual or shocking. And I think children would only find it shocking if they family has not taught them about sex and the differences between men and women from the get-go. But because famlies like that are in an extreme minority (my parents taught me about sex and such at the age of three), I can see your point. It's not actually to do with kids so much as to do with the parents who will say their kids cannot look at the page. But in all honesty, I feel like those parents would not let their kids look at a page on pregnancy to begin with, as well as Wikipedia to begin with. And those who consider Wikipedia to be tame are obviously not looking up certain articles that Wikipedia covers.
- I also disagree with the people who are paranoid about censorship concerning sex and nudity. For the most part, humans are a smart lot, and the people who argue that this is probably paranoia about nudity are probably paranoid themselves about certain issues they find important, or may even have ulterior motives.
- I ALSO disagree that a photo of a nude model must be used. That simply isn't true. Even if I don't find the image offensive or sexual, that's just not true.
- In any event, the picture, as determined by me, is harmless, and children whose parents are bothered by it probably do not let them surf Wikipedia to begin with. There are more pressing concerns with photos, like the one that illustrates vagina, which is not a medical photo but obviously porn to anyone who has seen hardcore porn--including myself. This photo passes the Miller test, and is not obscene or overtly (or even suggestively) sexual. Someone might say that is not the point--female nudity is much more accepted than male nudity. This is true. But that is a social issue, and wiping out all female photos that have nudity, even those that demonstrate a scientific phenomenon in a non-sexual way, should be censored, is extreme in my opinion. It's more case by case.--Henriettapussycat (talk) 15:46, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
- Some kids will be shocked, others won't. For that matter, some adults will be shocked. More than 5,000 people look at this page each day. The only thing we can guarantee is that they will not all have the same response.
- I disagree that this image is the best we could put in the lead, but I share your concerns about the lack of racial diversity and the apparent commitment of some editors to show strictly light-skinned women in a state of undress. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:57, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
- Personally, I don't care if children see nude images or not. And I strongly oppose any religious views influencing the content of Wikipedia. In fact, I oppose censorship so much that I founded WikiProject Wikipedians against censorship. However, I still think that image #1 is a better choice than our current lead image. Kaldari (talk) 19:05, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
- Despite the fact that I am not of any practicing or traditional religion, I still find it a little offensive that people are assuming that people raised this conversation because they are of a certain religion. This is seriously prejudiced to be "othering" like this. I don't think the person's religion matters in accordance to their views. --Henriettapussycat (talk) 00:07, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
- Personally, I don't care if children see nude images or not. And I strongly oppose any religious views influencing the content of Wikipedia. In fact, I oppose censorship so much that I founded WikiProject Wikipedians against censorship. However, I still think that image #1 is a better choice than our current lead image. Kaldari (talk) 19:05, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
- I totally agree with the remarks made by WhatamIdoing at 02:29 on 6 April 2011 [2]. Therefore I recommend using Image 1 in the lead and Image 2 under ==Second trimester==. I have nothing further to add. Rubywine . talk 19:08, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
Any chance of getting something like this? Doesn't address the racial issue, but it seems pretty good. Be——Critical__Talk 22:33, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
Um, isn't that sort of image exactly the problem here? The issue is not about whether we should show a nude image because people will get offended by nudity, it's whether the nudity is gratuitous and unnecessary. And I think WhatamIdoing has hit it on the head ... there's no real reason to depict the woman's breasts in the lead since there's nothing they could effectively illustrate. Exposed belly, yes. Breasts, no. Daniel Case (talk) 05:10, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
This image shows breast changes during pregnancy much better than the current lead. Thus its addition will hopefully address these concerns.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 05:32, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
- I have no problem with adding the new mages to the article in an appropriate spot. The image which parallels the lead must be a whole body image.(olive (talk) 11:46, 3 September 2011 (UTC))
- Agree that it should be the whole body. Thus am proposing image 1 for the lead. Image 2 lower in the article and this image to show breast changes. Seems to be support here fore that.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 11:50, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
- Per OrangeMarlin above: No consensus for change of current image.(olive (talk) 12:09, 3 September 2011 (UTC))
- There is definitely no consensus to change the image. See, the problem with getting too technical here, is that you are trying to opt for a pregnant woman with clothes, thus hiding what we're talking about, or for other less-than-full depictions. If not clothing, then break the pregnant body/form/shape into different images. But it seems people are trying to avoid the subject, which is the pregnant body. That includes the head, feet, breasts, knees, belly and everything surrounding them. Having a picture of a pregnant woman without any interference and without dividing the pregnant body up into separate pictures is exactly what we need here. Give the whole body first, then the closeups of the different parts for purposes of illustrating changes or giving higher resolution. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, that is going to be better than showing the subject of this article without interference. And that subject is pregnancy, that is the carrying of offspring inside the womb. And what is "carrying inside the womb?" The womb alone? Clothes? Breasts? No... it's the whole human body which carries, and the whole human body, as effected by pregnancy, is the subject of the article. Showing anything less than the female human body, without interference, is inappropriate to this article. Be——Critical__Talk 19:14, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
- Per OrangeMarlin above: No consensus for change of current image.(olive (talk) 12:09, 3 September 2011 (UTC))
- Agree that it should be the whole body. Thus am proposing image 1 for the lead. Image 2 lower in the article and this image to show breast changes. Seems to be support here fore that.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 11:50, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
The argument is for a more professional looking image for the lead. Concerns where raised that we needed to show breast changes in pregnancy. Thus an image of these changes was found addressing this. Will return to another RfC.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 22:32, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
- I totally agree with the comments of Doc James, WhatamIdoing and the rest of the folks who spoken up here calmly and clearly about the need for better image. Photo 1 is clearly preferable for a whole host of reasons. It's higher quality even just on a basic photographic quality level when you compare light levels, contrast, and balanced composition. There is plenty of room in the rest of the article for any nude images which may be necessary to describe specific physical changes of pregnancy, but it is more dignified and educational for Wikipedia to depict a pregnant woman in the infobox as you are most likely to encounter a pregnant woman: wearing clothes. Steven Walling • talk 22:39, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
- There are multiple arguments in this thread which began months ago on what kind of photo should be in the lead. I'm afraid we can't now dismiss those comments and concerns, and there is no consensus so far that overturns the majority view. Professional is a very subjective term, and does not only include the more suoerficial elements like lighting but also the impact including the emotional impact a photograph has. The photograph in place as has been said many times before describes the change in the human body which pregnancy is, and includes a sense of the emotional quality of the mother. Descriptive of that physical change is not a blue top under which could be anything, even a watermelon. The reader should see what pregnancy looks like. If we were looking at an article on 'foot' would we hide the foot in a shoe. Doubtful.(olive (talk) 23:19, 3 September 2011 (UTC))
- The "quality" objection is not relevant, Steven Walling: photo quality is irrelevant unless the subject is not easily discernible, because we are illustrating, not trying to have a beautiful or artistic image. And please reveal to us how a lack of clothing is "undignified." We should not be basing Wikipedia content on cultural biases. The only argument that has some basis is that in real life one is more likely to encounter a pregnant woman clothed; but the same argument could be applied to breast and arm and buttocks penis Human penis and vagina. Looking at those articles, I think your "dignity" argument thoroughly refuted for WP purposes. Be——Critical__Talk 00:25, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
Mother?
A pregnant woman is not necessarily a mother. Ignoring the potential for pregnant men, many pregnant women have no children, and do not go on to have children. They are not mothers and do not necessarily become mothers. Unfortunately, the most proper alternative is either the unpleasant "gravida" or the lengthy "pregnant woman." Thoughts? Triacylglyceride (talk) 05:55, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
- Most sources—and most pregnant women—refer to pregnant women as mothers. When the source assumes that the pregnancy is not going to be terminated, the practice of calling pregnant women "mothers" is almost universal. Wikipedia follows the sources in these things, not editors' personal preferences or political positions.
- Also, your assertion that the "unborn baby" is always an embryo is wrong. There are multiple stages of development, and the embryo stage only lasts for a few weeks. Mercury can harm development in any of the stages, not just between weeks one and eight. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:13, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
- I object to your stating that I asserted this. I did inaccurately correct "unborn baby" to "embryo," and I thank you for catching it, but that was not the assertion that you have characterized it as. I have changed it to "embryo or fetus." It is also irrelevant to the topic "mother?" and I suggest you start a new topic for it if you have further objections. (I will have further rebuttals.)
- On the topic of the word mother, let me reply to your points in order.
- Yes, most sources refer to pregnant women as mothers. Most sources that deal with pregnancy are referring to pregnancies that are intended to be carried to term. The Wikipedia article on abortion at no point refers to pregnant women as mothers. Do you feel it should?
- It is irrelevant that you feel most pregnant women refer to each other as mothers. Most pregnant women who are referring to themselves or each other in ways that disclose their pregnancy status are intending to give birth. You have a confirmation bias.
- This is both a personal preference and political position, but it also follows the sources. This article cites the American Heritage Medical Dictionary, which states that a mother is "1. A woman who conceives, gives birth to, or raises and nurtures a child." A pregnant woman has conceived an embryo or fetus, not a child. Triacylglyceride (talk) 03:15, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
- Well, the idea that the pre-birth developmental stages—which, forgive me for being pedantic, encompass more than merely "embryo" and "fetus", so your change is still inaccurate; the failure of the medical community to come up with a word that means "whatever that genetically distinct organism is, from conception to delivery, but not overlapping even slightly with neonate" is exactly why we, and other reliable sources, are stuck with unfortunate phrases like "unborn baby" or "unborn child"—somehow do not constitute "a child" is itself a political position.
- As for the dictionary definition, I'm actually not sure how one conceives "a child", if by "child" you mean only post-birth humans. I know how one conceives a zygote, which is the first of those developmental stages that you've been ignoring. In fact, I think the definition here plainly indicates that "a mother" is "a woman who conceives", and that she attains that status from the very moment of conception. I believe that if they meant something like, "a previously pregnant woman, beginning after the birth, but only if the pregnancy wasn't deliberately terminated", then they would have said something like that. Oh, and you might like to look up how your dictionary defines "child", in definition #2: "An unborn infant; a fetus." I think we can assume that its use of words is internally consistent. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:41, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
- According to prenatal development, "the embryonic period in humans begins at fertilization (penetration of the egg by the sperm) and continues until the end of the 10th week of gestation (8th week by embryonic age)." I don't mind your being pedantic, but I would like you to be more specific: the only developmental stage you feel we're omitting that you mention is the zygote. In this context, though, we're discussing a set of cells that has a developing nervous system. I do not think that a zygote can be reasonably said to have a "developing nervous system." Why are we still discussing this here?
- I did look that up and see that definition, but that hardly helps your argument, unless you support replacing all instances of the word "fetus" with "child." It's also moot because the dictionary this article uses is the American Heritage Medical Dictionary, which has it as: "1. A person who has not yet reached puberty. 2. A son or daughter; an offspring. 3. A person not of legal age; a minor."
- I recall the dictionary that had the definition which you mention (which, for some reason, I'm not seeing at the moment -- I can't explain why, as I was seeing it earlier) also included as an example the phrase "with child," meaning pregnant.
- Your points on conceiving children are semantic. If a pregnancy is not carried to term, was a child conceived? I can say that, "Dan, a forty-year-old man, was conceived in 1970," but that doesn't mean that he was conceived as a forty-year-old man. I feel they include the conception part for two reasons: one being to account for gestational surrogates, and the other being that, as a dictionary, they are trying to reflect common usage, which includes, as we've discussed, expecting mothers who intend to carry a pregnancy to term. See mother for further difficulty in definitions here.
- I was initially approaching this question as a cost-benefit analysis of accuracy vs. accessibility, and we've ended up debating accuracy. At what point do you think a woman becomes a mother? Conception? Implantation? Triacylglyceride (talk) 06:14, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
- The source says she becomes a mother at the point of conception. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:53, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
- Please be specific. Which source? Triacylglyceride (talk) 19:43, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
- The source you quote above, namely American Heritage Medical Dictionary. It defines mother as "1. A woman who conceives, gives birth to, or raises and nurtures a child." If a mother is "a woman who conceives", then she becomes a mother at the point of conception. (She may additionally become a mother at the point of giving birth, if she can somehow do this without conceiving, or when she raises and point of nurturing a child, if this somehow [e.g., through adoption or step-parenting] precedes both conception and giving birth.) The definition is phrased in terms of or, rather than and, and therefore any one of these conditions is adequate to define a woman who meets any single condition as being a mother. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:26, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
- Please be specific. Which source? Triacylglyceride (talk) 19:43, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
- By the definition, a mother is not "a woman who conceives," but "a woman who conceives... a child." (This is a grammatically sound assertion: if they meant to include conception of anything, they would have written "a woman who conceives, or gives birth to or raises a child.") And, as we've discussed, pregnant women have not necessarily conceived children (any more than they have conceived forty-year-old humans), they have conceived embryos and fetuses. (And blastulas, and morulas, and zygotes...) Unless you support referring to all of these nascent entities as children, which I am assuming you don't.
- And remember that you've already asked how one can ever conceive a child, and the answer is by conceiving a zygote that then becomes a child. One can conceive a forty-year-old human in a similar fashion. Triacylglyceride (talk) 01:36, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
- The same dictionary defines "child" as encompassing "an unborn infant; a fetus". Making their definition of mother not including any woman whose egg was just fertilized inside her body requires twisting their words out of recognition. Note that I don't require you to agree with their definition; I'm merely telling you what that source's definition is. As far as I'm concerned, you can define mother in any way you want, including as a class of green Martians that lay eggs. Your personal beliefs really don't matter to me. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:54, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
- It sounds like you agree with my assertion that defining "mother" to include women who are pregnant but have had no past births is predicated on defining "child" as including fetuses and embryos. Additionally, as we've discussed before, the dictionary gives an example of that use as "she is with child" -- it is clearly a colloquial use. As using "child" to mean "fetus" is an inaccurate and politically charged choice of phrasing, I assert that using "mother" to mean "pregnant woman" is similarly charged.
- Re: green Martians: you're bringing the level of this discussion down. Mother, as is clearly discussed on its page, is very difficult to define. Ultimately, it's something of an identity that people choose for themselves: some pregnant women feel like mothers, some don't. I assert that we should not make that assignment for them on this page. Triacylglyceride (talk) 21:47, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
- Worldwide, more than half of pregnant women have already given birth, and so are already mothers irrespective of the current pregnancy.
- I do not agree with your opinion that it is inaccurate to use the word child to refer to an unborn human. That word has actually been used that way for centuries, and its use is supported by the medical dictionary you name. I suppose it might be uncomfortable for the small subset of readers who are thinking about pregnancy primarily in terms of a voluntary termination, but that's not actually our problem. Wikipedia isn't censored, not even to the extent of telling people that some diseases normally result in death, or that a baby is statistically the most common result of a pregnancy.
- On your broader point, it would be just as inappropriate for us to "deny" a pregnant woman recognition as a mother as it would be to "assign" that label on a pregnant woman who does not identify with it. There is no good solution here: we must use some term, and whatever term we choose will offend some affected women. I recommend that we therefore not worry about it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:58, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
- We are not denying recognition to pregnant women who consider themselves mothers. We are not saying, "pregnant women, who are not mothers." We are saying, if anything, "pregnant women, some of whom consider themselves mothers and some of whom do not." Realy, we're just saying, "pregnant women." When a woman is called a "person," it is not denying her womanhood; when a pregnant mother is called a pregnant woman, it is not denying her motherhood.Triacylglyceride (talk) 00:08, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
This discussion really should be limited, as Triacylglyceride requested at the beginning, to the use of the term "mother". The separate issue of "fetus" (etc) vs "child" should be discussed separately. Regarding using "mother" to refer to pregnant women, one reason (apart from inaccuracy) not to do this is because not all pregnancies result in a live baby. Therefore even a pregnant woman prematurely calling herself a "mother" can be setting herself up for even more disappointment/sadness should a miscarriage occur. This is a compassionate as well as realistic motivation for avoiding the premature use of "mother". It is, moreover, simply and quite obviously inaccurate to refer to a woman as a "mother" solely because she is pregnant.-- TyrS chatties 00:20, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- That's your opinion. The source that Triacylglyceride quoted above defines the woman as being a mother from the moment of conception—and it is far from the only source to do so. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:08, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Glad to hear I have some support. TyrS. Triacylglyceride (talk) 20:11, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
I'm fine with the uses of 'mother' and 'child' in this article, no need to further remove things by changing 'mother' to 'woman'; or debating the definition or exact point of conception/motherhood/fetus/baby/child/etc. The sources are clear, as is general use of the terms. I can't agree with changing "exercise...is recommended for healthy pregnancies" to "exercise....is said to have ...health benefits. "Said to have" is an unnecessary qualifer and does not match the sources, it seems to cast doubt on the value of exercise, which may be a disservice to our readers. Dreadstar ☥ 04:46, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Why is that relevant to this thread? Triacylglyceride (talk) 20:11, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
- Because someone chose to combine the two into one edit. Dreadstar ☥ 00:25, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
Embryo at 4 weeks image
The image of the "4 week" embryo is actually a 6 week embryo, according to the cited source, ref 41. A four week embryo does not have a humanoid shape, eyes or limb buds. 99.235.4.123 (talk) 12:59, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
- No, it's correct as written. The caption in the article specifies four weeks after fertilization; the source specifies six weeks after a last normal menstrual period (and silently assumes that all women always have a predictable menstrual cycle of 28 days in length, and they always conceive on the 14th day of that cycle). Consequently, these are the same dates. The LMP system that the source is using declares the pregnancy to begin two weeks before conception.
- LMP sometimes produces idiotic results in the one-third of women who don't have menstrual cycles that are consistently about 28 days in length, but it's what the men decided to use in the 19th century, so we're apparently stuck with it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:50, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
Lead image RfC
-
Proposed image
Image 1 -
Current image
Image 2 -
Image showing breast changes, proposed image
Image 3
This proposal is to move the current image (image 2) lower in the article to the section on second trimester and replace it with image 1. Concerns in the past have been raised regarding the importance of showing breast changes however the current image does not show breast changes and a better image has been subsequently found to illustrate this point (added lower in the article). There is also a potential issue with the current image licence as discussed in greater detail below. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:03, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
I strongly object to your non-neutral RFC statement, which violates RFC "Include a brief, neutral statement of the issue below the template", your RFC statement above is in no way neutral, presenting your POV about the images and cherry-picking an item out many in this dispute. I suggest that any 'consensus' that comes out of your biased and incorrect RFC statement would be flawed and therefore invalid. Dreadstar ☥ 17:35, 4 September 2011 (UTC)Thanks for addressing my concerns about neutrality. Dreadstar ☥ 21:07, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- There is no licensing issue with the current lead image, it was verified by an administrator/reviewer in 2006 [3] and was kept per two different deletion discussions [4][5] - including keep votes by the person purporting to be the photographer. Please read the comments made in both deletion discussions by the photographer, Inferis. Dreadstar ☥ 15:50, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- You are not a neutral party thus please do not edit my comments. Thanks.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 17:37, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- You're not a neutral party either, and you certainly shouldn't be making your argument in the RFC statement to begin with. Look to your own inappropriate behavior before criticizing good faith efforts by others to follow Wikipedia guidelines and instructions. Fix the RFC statement and make it neutral. Dreadstar ☥ 17:44, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- You are not a neutral party thus please do not edit my comments. Thanks.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 17:37, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- I second the objections to this RfC. No neutral editor can come in, see the RfC text, and offer an opinion. The RfC text was highly biased, and as currently edited acts as if the concerns are mainly about breast changes. I suggest that the current RfC be thrown out, and another take its place with a neutrally stated question. I did not object earlier, although I wanted to, and refrained from saving edits which either stated the RfC text was non-neutral or edited it. I didn't want to cause trouble. But Dreadstar is right, and no RfC can be legitimate which starts out with an extremely biased question. Also, changing the text mid-way through an RfC makes former opinions obsolete. I'm sorry this comes so late in the process. Be——Critical__Talk 21:56, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- I'm very sorry to hear that you believe your fellow editors are so gullible. I suggest that you assume the typical editor is just as capable as you of making his own decision. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:35, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you for the assumption of good faith in my willingness to research former discussion, but I might in fact offer an opinion based only on the question were I to come here. I usually feel that the obvious conclusion is probably the right one, and might well depend on the phrasing of an RfC. Be——Critical__Talk 05:45, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- I'm very sorry to hear that you believe your fellow editors are so gullible. I suggest that you assume the typical editor is just as capable as you of making his own decision. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:35, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- I second the objections to this RfC. No neutral editor can come in, see the RfC text, and offer an opinion. The RfC text was highly biased, and as currently edited acts as if the concerns are mainly about breast changes. I suggest that the current RfC be thrown out, and another take its place with a neutrally stated question. I did not object earlier, although I wanted to, and refrained from saving edits which either stated the RfC text was non-neutral or edited it. I didn't want to cause trouble. But Dreadstar is right, and no RfC can be legitimate which starts out with an extremely biased question. Also, changing the text mid-way through an RfC makes former opinions obsolete. I'm sorry this comes so late in the process. Be——Critical__Talk 21:56, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
Support change
- Support as person starting this RfC. Another issue with the current image is its licence. The person who took the picture states that he has never released this image under a license that allows commercial reuse.[6] Concerns in the past have been raised regarding the importance of showing breast changes however the current image does not show breast changes and a better image has been subsequently found to illustrate this point (added lower in the article). --Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:03, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
- Change image: Seems like a better image all around. The current image would not be needed - it can be removed, and should be removed if there are licensing issues. --Ludwigs2 00:25, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- Support as the new image is higher technical quality, does a fine job of showing the most obvious physical signs of pregnancy, and adheres to the principle of least surprise which was outlined as being officially supported in a recent Board resolution. Also note that the full image of the naked woman does not strictly adhere to our resolve to have consent of images of identifiable people. The original photo seems have to been deleted from Flickr ([7]) and it's thus unclear that it is morally acceptable for us to display such an image not knowing whether we have the consent of the subject to be displayed in such a prominent venue. Steven Walling • talk 02:20, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- Change lead image, but move elsewhere in the article. I want to move the current image from the lead down to the un-illustrated ==Second trimester== section, where we can use it to illustrate the specific, relevant concepts, rather than merely to decorate the page with a "beautiful" or "emotional" image. Past opposition appears to have focused on the idea that any one-time image can show nine months' worth of changes to the breast (it can't, and furthermore, most of the changes happen in the months after this image was taken) and an apparent aversion to including even a single image of a pregnant woman that isn't a European or American in a state of undress. There's a whole world out there that isn't white: at least Image 1 would begin to acknowledge this fact. We might also be able to get images like these snapshots, but the multi-racial woman in the blue shirt is fine with me.
(If anyone's up for a photog commission, at the moment, my ideal image for the lead would be a well-composed, well-lighted picture of a racially mixed group of pregnant women, at different stages of pregnancy, possibly including one shortly after birth (with her baby), rather than an image of any one woman—something like this, but preferably with faces and more women.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:42, 4 September 2011 (UTC) - Support change No really solid reason has been given for why we need to see a pregnant woman in the altogether. Issue of nudity per se and censorship concerns are a red herring here; gratuitous nudity is a problem if it makes a not-insignificant portion of our community uncomfortable that would not otherwise be uncomfortable with nude images where such have a clear encyclopedic purpose. Daniel Case (talk) 05:18, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- Daniel Case - I just followed the link behind your text "...makes a not-insignificant portion of our community uncomfortable". It's to an article called Hostile environment sexual harassment, which is all about posting pictures of pornography in employee's cubicles, dirty jokes, sexually suggestive remarks, asking for dates, and derogatory terms with a sexual connotation. That has absolutely nothing to do with this topic. Not a helpful contribution at all. HiLo48 (talk) 07:16, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, it does have everything to do with this topic. You don't get this at all. I repeat: Not only is there no encyclopedic reason for this, in this context it becomes gratuitous nudity, which can be part and parcel of a hostile-environment claim, or the whole claim, depending on the situation (Question: Assuming you do not work in a doctor's office, or even if you do, is this something you would put up where visiting members of the public would see it?). Daniel Case (talk) 00:31, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- Yes HiLo48 (talk) 01:02, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- OK. You are aware, I take it, that most workplaces have rules against that? Daniel Case (talk) 02:30, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- Yes HiLo48 (talk) 01:02, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, it does have everything to do with this topic. You don't get this at all. I repeat: Not only is there no encyclopedic reason for this, in this context it becomes gratuitous nudity, which can be part and parcel of a hostile-environment claim, or the whole claim, depending on the situation (Question: Assuming you do not work in a doctor's office, or even if you do, is this something you would put up where visiting members of the public would see it?). Daniel Case (talk) 00:31, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- Support change. Higher quality with the added benefit of less nudity. JFW | T@lk 06:42, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- Strong support. Most important reason being that it is unclear if the (easily identifiable) woman in the pic consents to our use of the pic. See comment by Steven Walling. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 10:43, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- Support change: There are so many pictures representing pregancy as such without identifiable person in the image. Why not having such a picture in the lead so then we wouldn't have these debates. NCurse work 11:59, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- Support change: As I said above, the use of a nude woman, over a clothed one, seems entirely to be about wanting to seem mature and a gut negative reaction to any sort of "censorship". Pregnancy is about both the psychological and physical aspects of the image--and I believe that a nude image focuses on mostly the physical. All physical changes are going to be apparent in a clothed image as well. Others, like breast sizes, can not be accurately depicted without a before and after image. There is room for nude images later in the article as well. Saibh (talk) 18:30, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- Support: The fact that the pregnancy article is NSFW does not put Wikipedia in a positive light. Also, the first image is tasteful, well done, and better quality. I'd also kill someone if my photo showed up of me naked on Wikipedia...and the source link for that photo is dead. SarahStierch (talk) 00:50, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- Support: Really unnecessary to have a naked female. Plus all the reasons stated above. CarolMooreDC (talk) 01:02, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- Support change : I am very concerned that the nude woman photo lacks consent and the source on Flickr is gone. Also, not sure the nudity is needed in the lead image. Cheers. --Aude (talk) 01:10, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- Comment Appears we do have consent [8] so I think the image is okay copyright-wise, but still think nudity is not needed in the lead image. This or another image showing breast changes would be okay, in my opinion, elsewhere in the article -- just not the lead image. --Aude (talk) 01:19, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- Support: File:Pregnant woman.jpg seems a little better for the lead image, although the image in use is tasteful also. User:Fred Bauder Talk 01:12, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- Support Proposed image is more appropriate. The current lede image is okay, but like Aude, I don't think it should be in the infobox. Bejinhan talks 13:00, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
Support keeping current image in the lead
- Keep current image or replace it with a similar image which is properly licensed. A clothed image would only obscure the subject of the article, which is the entire female body during pregnancy (and that's why the full-body photo should be in the lead). There are many reasons for keeping the nude image expressed above, and most of the opposition to the nude image is purely a matter of dislike of nudity. Photo quality is irrelevant; nudity is not undignified; it is traditional in WP to present nude images for articles on the body, see Human body, breast, buttocks Human penis and vagina. And the full image should be first with other images used to illustrate details: it's a summary image, and belongs in the lead. Be——Critical__Talk 00:32, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- Seeing that I have added many images showing nudity this is not an accurate claim. I have no issue with nudity just there is a better image. I have found and acquired a license which allows our use of an image that actually shows the breast changes of pregnancy.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:25, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- Keep current image, for many of the same reasons I outlined in at least two previous discussions about these same images here and here. The original image is superior to the new photo. The original image is very descriptive of the subject, it is a dignified and beautiful picture, that to me at least, conveys a sense of warmth, of motherhood…like she’s responding to that which she carries…it’s contemplative, lovely and not at all obscene or even titillating…I think it’s just perfect for the lede. I agree with BeCritical's comments above. There are no licensing issues. The licensing was confirmed by an administrator/reviewer and was kept per two different deletion discussions [9][10]. Dreadstar ☥ 02:16, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- Not sure why you are not taking into account the statements of the person who actually took the photo per here [11]? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:26, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- Dreadstar, as you pointed out here we have no way of knowing if Inferis is the actual photographer. More importantly, we have no way of knowing if the easily identifiable woman in the picture really consents to our use of that picture. Yes, she posed for that photo. This doesn't mean that she wants her photo used on Wikipedia.
- Why hold on to a picture that has provoked so many different objections in the past? I read the arguments that the nude, lower-quality image is "dignified and beautiful," that it should stay because physicians don't treat patients through their clothes, and that more skin equals a better understanding of pregnancy, or as one editor put it, a better understanding of how the body is "deformed and changed" (as if picture 1 and the other images in the article don't do the job and as if physical "deformation" is the most important aspect of pregnancy). These arguments are not convincing, to put it very mildly. The suggestion that editors who want to replace the current image are prudes is unconvincing and uncivil.
- Bottom line is: Picture 1 (pregnant woman in blue looking into the camera) is of higher quality than picture 2 (pregnant woman in the nude). Picture 1 shows the most visible signs of pregnancy. Picture 1 doesn't come with the same licensing/commercial reuse uncertainty as picture 2. Picture 2 doesn't add any relevant (yes, we see stretch marks on the hips, cellulite, we see breasts etc. but who says that the stretch marks, cellulite, breast size, Areola coloring etc. are related to her pregnancy and weren't there before her pregnancy?) information that we don't get from picture 1. Picture 1 adds ethnic diversity to an article that lacks images of women of color... Picture 1 is a better option all around. So what is the problem here? --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 23:55, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- Not sure why you are not taking into account the statements of the person who actually took the photo per here [11]? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:26, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
Hat off-topic part of discussion. Dreadstar ☥ 14:36, 5 September 2011 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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- Keep image currently in place. The first and critical criteria for an image encyclopedic article is that it be informative. Pregnancy is physiological, not about fashion and not about symbolism. In western culture the front 'bump' has become the accepted symbolic image for pregnant women. But in fact the clothed image only tells us something if we know what the symbol means. It tells us little if we have never seen a pregnant body. Information that is outwardly informative includes the position of the child in relation to the hips, the height at which the baby might be carried, the size relative to breast size, and I could go on and on. Information is available in the nude body. The clothed body tells us almost nothing. Its for the most part decorative. And imagine if someone from another country whose clothing was not like ours saw the clothed image. How much information are we giving them. Very little. Why bother with an image that tells us Westerners what we already know and anyone else, nothing (olive (talk) 03:34, 4 September 2011 (UTC))
- Or to put part of your post another way, the reader's question is: what does a pregnant woman really look like, and it's our duty as an encyclopedia to answer that question directly. Be——Critical__Talk 04:27, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- Are you two seriously suggesting that image 1 doesn't show the reader what a pregnant woman really looks like? MastCell Talk 05:39, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- Well, it chooses to hide certain aspects for presumably cultural reasons, so, no. HiLo48 (talk) 05:46, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- Agreed. Yes, MastCell, that's what we're saying. Drop the information you already have, and ask how much information you'd get from a clothed image. Be——Critical__Talk 06:32, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- I'd get about the same amount of information I get from an unclothed image. But that's just me. I don't really feel the need to view images of naked cancer patients, or children, or Republican Presidential contenders to gain an encyclopedic understanding of what they look like, either, despite the fact that all three of those conditions are marked by distinct physical characteristics. Anyhow, you've answered my question. MastCell Talk 06:48, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- The "cancer" one would be the only one relevant here, since there are pedophilia concerns with pictures of children. I've seen cancer up close, and I assure you that we ought to have a nude picture of a cancer patient. It's one of the most informative images that sticks in my mind, and is definitely encyclopedic. What is the distinct feature of nude Republicans? Be——Critical__Talk 06:59, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- Possibly about the same as Old age, where we also don't show nude images, despite many visible changes.
- A nude picture of a cancer patient is only informative (for the general article) if you confuse 'having cancer' with 'having end-stage invasive cancer' or 'having cancer wasting syndrome'. The majority of people who have cancer don't have a distinctive appearance. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:45, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- That's true about cancer, but an illustrative image would show a body which showed effects. You're right that the old age article, as with the pornography article, does not have nude images. But is that the most informative we can be? I find pictures like these very informative. Be——Critical__Talk 05:45, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- IMO a biased image would show a person with severe cancer wasting. The median cancer patient looks nothing like that, and an NPOV-compliant image would show what's typical, not what's extreme.
- Also, complete nudity isn't even remotely necessary to illustrate cancer wasting. Wasting can be seen in lightly clothed person. An image like this adequately illustrates wasting despite not showing the man's genitals. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:23, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- I agree, complete nudity is not necessary for cancer wasting (although having seen it, I disagree that the image you found is a very good illustration, they look more like Nazi prison camp pictures). And really, I don't think it's biased to show extreme cases, that's just illustration. You don't show mild cases of starvation, for example, you show extreme cases. Like the picture at malnutrition [12] and those at Acute myeloid leukemia, you show a picture of the subject when there's something to see. But in the case of pregnancy, breasts and genitals are such a large part of the process that not showing them, or showing them in isolation would be remiss. Pregnancy is a whole body change particularly involving the belly, breasts, and genitals, and we should have at least one whole body image without interference from clothing. Be——Critical__Talk 21:36, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- That's true about cancer, but an illustrative image would show a body which showed effects. You're right that the old age article, as with the pornography article, does not have nude images. But is that the most informative we can be? I find pictures like these very informative. Be——Critical__Talk 05:45, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- The "cancer" one would be the only one relevant here, since there are pedophilia concerns with pictures of children. I've seen cancer up close, and I assure you that we ought to have a nude picture of a cancer patient. It's one of the most informative images that sticks in my mind, and is definitely encyclopedic. What is the distinct feature of nude Republicans? Be——Critical__Talk 06:59, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- I'd get about the same amount of information I get from an unclothed image. But that's just me. I don't really feel the need to view images of naked cancer patients, or children, or Republican Presidential contenders to gain an encyclopedic understanding of what they look like, either, despite the fact that all three of those conditions are marked by distinct physical characteristics. Anyhow, you've answered my question. MastCell Talk 06:48, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- Agreed. Yes, MastCell, that's what we're saying. Drop the information you already have, and ask how much information you'd get from a clothed image. Be——Critical__Talk 06:32, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- Well, it chooses to hide certain aspects for presumably cultural reasons, so, no. HiLo48 (talk) 05:46, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- Are you two seriously suggesting that image 1 doesn't show the reader what a pregnant woman really looks like? MastCell Talk 05:39, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- Or to put part of your post another way, the reader's question is: what does a pregnant woman really look like, and it's our duty as an encyclopedia to answer that question directly. Be——Critical__Talk 04:27, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- Keep image currently in place ...at least until a sensible RfC is made. The suggestion to "replace it with another image" is too vague. Does the proposer object to the nudity, the licencing issues, the quality of the image, or something else? This leads to a confused discussion covering all of those matters. All pretty pointless really. HiLo48 (talk) 05:28, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- The proposer objects to the licensing issue and the quality of the image. These objections where removed by user Dreadstar in these edits here [13] and I am not sure why.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 05:33, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- Doc - I think these comments were refactored rather than removed - they were argumentation in the RfC description, which should be reserved for a neutral statement of the issue. --Ludwigs2 05:55, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, thanks Ludwigs, that's exactly the point: "Include a brief, neutral statement of the issue below the template", the RFC statement above by James is in no way neutral. I will again attempt to remove the POV commentary and cherry-picking by James. Dreadstar ☥ 16:09, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- Doc - I think these comments were refactored rather than removed - they were argumentation in the RfC description, which should be reserved for a neutral statement of the issue. --Ludwigs2 05:55, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- The proposer objects to the licensing issue and the quality of the image. These objections where removed by user Dreadstar in these edits here [13] and I am not sure why.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 05:33, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- Keep For reasons stated in all the other discussions about this picture. On that note, however, I find it odd that we're discussing whether or not there's licensing for the picture, it's something that never stuck me as being a problem before, since I'm pretty sure the permission to use the picture was clear. --HoneymaneHeghlu meH QaQ jajvam 16:14, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- Wikimedia's standards for licensing have changed since the image was reviewed about five years ago. In particular, back then, we really only cared about copyright, our policies on preserving the privacy of the subject have been dramatically strengthened. So the copyright is probably okay, but we have no idea if the identifiable individual in the image agreed to this. Wikipedia:Image use policy#Privacy_rights defines "Nudes, underwear or swimsuit shots, unless obviously taken in a public place" as images that require not only a suitable copyright license from the photographer, but consent from the subject. (The consent required is not just for the image to be taken, but for the image to be used on Wikipedia.) The privacy rights policy on en.wiki was added less than two years ago/several years after the image was uploaded. There is no "grandfather clause" that says it's okay with us to invade someone's privacy so long as you did it before the en.wiki policy addressed privacy directly. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:53, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- Keep It serves an encyclopedic purpose and the licensing seems not to be a problem. Martin Hogbin (talk) 22:13, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- Keep (or replace with a similar image) ...we should be be wary of rampant censorship. It starts in an apparently very innocuous way, invoking what seems sensible requirements, but once the genie is out of the bottle... Dessources (talk) 09:56, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- Not all slopes are slippery ... Daniel Case (talk) 00:33, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- This one is. It's all about nudity, read the "keeps" above and discussion. Be——Critical__Talk 01:09, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- It's not about nudity per se, and it's not censorship ... we are not calling for the image to be deleted, nor (in some cases) for its removal from the article (though I have some separate concerns about its free-image status which, granted, would result in its deletion if acted on). It's about the placement of the image within the article, and whether that is a wise decision. The encyclopedic need to show a pregnant woman naked has not been adequately established, and the given justifications for doing so have been challenged without response. We, the support voters, have asked those who favor retaining the image to consider that, in light of the doubtful utility of this image, to consider whether having a nude picture of a female of dubious encyclopedic value is really the way to make female contributors, both potential and actual, feel that Wikipedia is not the men's locker room or the garage (I don't care that the image is tasteful, and that the woman involved consented. Those are not the issues involved here.
Abusum non tollit usum. The fact that such images are removed or replaced from places other than Wikipedia for irrational reasons does not mean that no rational reasons for doing so exist. We do not need to fight censorship by putting nude photos of people in articles about medical conditions with slim justification (in fact, IMO, that helps the censor's side of the argument). If that's your justification for this, then this should be the lead image for baldness. Daniel Case (talk) 02:27, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- Would anyone mind if this discussion were moved into the 'discussion' section?
- It's not about nudity per se, and it's not censorship ... we are not calling for the image to be deleted, nor (in some cases) for its removal from the article (though I have some separate concerns about its free-image status which, granted, would result in its deletion if acted on). It's about the placement of the image within the article, and whether that is a wise decision. The encyclopedic need to show a pregnant woman naked has not been adequately established, and the given justifications for doing so have been challenged without response. We, the support voters, have asked those who favor retaining the image to consider that, in light of the doubtful utility of this image, to consider whether having a nude picture of a female of dubious encyclopedic value is really the way to make female contributors, both potential and actual, feel that Wikipedia is not the men's locker room or the garage (I don't care that the image is tasteful, and that the woman involved consented. Those are not the issues involved here.
- This one is. It's all about nudity, read the "keeps" above and discussion. Be——Critical__Talk 01:09, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- Not all slopes are slippery ... Daniel Case (talk) 00:33, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- Daniel, you say, 'The encyclopedic need to show a pregnant woman naked has not been adequately established'. To me the advantages of this seem self-evident. On the other hand, the need to remove, reduce, or limit nudity within WP has not been established at all . Martin Hogbin (talk) 08:18, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- Is saying it's "self-evident" another way of saying that we need to show pictures of BIG HAPPY B(•)(•)BIEZ? WhatamIdoing has argued repeatedly that:
- not all women experience breast-swelling during pregnancy
- and in those cases the changes to breast size are not so significant that they would be adequately demonstrated in a photo taken at that range (And I would say one picture alone doesn't demonstrate mammary swelling ... you'd need two pictures)
- I have not seen anyone offer any effective rebuttal to this. I have barely seen anyone try despite multiple opportunities. Therefore the need to use this picture as the defining image of pregnancy has not been demonstrated. Daniel Case (talk) 15:30, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- Is saying it's "self-evident" another way of saying that we need to show pictures of BIG HAPPY B(•)(•)BIEZ? WhatamIdoing has argued repeatedly that:
- Daniel, you say, 'The encyclopedic need to show a pregnant woman naked has not been adequately established'. To me the advantages of this seem self-evident. On the other hand, the need to remove, reduce, or limit nudity within WP has not been established at all . Martin Hogbin (talk) 08:18, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
Keep current. I honestly don't think a naked pregnant woman in the lead is surprising anyone. Images of pregnant women are ubiquitous in the media (Demi Moore for example) and noone in the english speaking world will be shocked or surprised. The image is decent and appropriate for this article and not at all "erotic" or pornographic. And by the way: the alternative image with the blue dress has a resolution of 400 × 616 pixels only. This is not about censorship or nudity or prudeness or whatever it is or at least should be only about the best image. The blue dress image is not better for this purpose. If there is a better alternative I might !vote otherwise. Adornix (talk) 15:30, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
Discussion
I want to make a comment to frame the issue as I see it. I happen to like the original picture - it's well-done, tasteful, and all around pleasantly artistic. However, I think we all recognize that the image is not to everyone's tastes; some people object to depictions of nudity on any of various grounds. The issue at hand, then, is whether the picture itself adds enough value to the article to justify the risk of offending some people. In this particular case that is a close call: the nude picture does not seem to offer much more to the reader than the non-nude picture in terms of information. It is a bit more artistic, though somewhat lower quality; it may show more detail, but it would be easy enough to find an image that exposes a woman's belly without straying into actual nudity.
In my judgement - nice as the picture is - it doesn't add anything to the article that cannot be achieved with pictures that would cause no one offense. If we can achieve the same result without the risk of offense, why take the risk? --Ludwigs2 05:51, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- That's a big "If". I have a pretty good idea of what's under a pregnant woman's clothes, but if we assume that position of all of our readers, there's no point in having a picture at all. Clothes hide things. (That's the goal of those who don't like nudity.) We shouldn't hide things in a picture of a pregnant lady when the purpose is to give the best possible information. It forces those who don't know to guess. Encyclopaedias shouldn't force readers to guess. HiLo48 (talk) 06:42, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- Ludwigs, you put it well. I would object that "offending people" is not a consideration that an encyclopedia takes into account. And as I and others argued above, one gets almost nothing from the clothed picture, but a lot from the nude one. You framing the issue so well actually shows how the only reason for not using the image is that it's nude: and I don't think that should be a consideration unless there it is the only factor to consider; even a small amount of extra information would be sufficient to justify the use of the current image. Personally, I think that it adds a lot. In the way that people say "a picture is worth a thousand words" I would say "a complete picture is much better than an incomplete one," even while it is difficult to thoroughly quantify the difference (although olive tried above).
- Agree with HiLo48 Be——Critical__Talk 06:45, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- How do you know what's under the shirt MastCell? We are not viewing the pictures of anyone here for gratuitous reasons which seems to be implied. This article should inform those who do not know what pregnancy looks like. What modern physician treats a patient through their clothes? How can he see the body? How can he inform himself? What physician is trained by looking at bodies through clothing? With respect to the idea that we want to err on the side of safety, there is nudity in the article and Doc wants to add more...I'm not sure why we should be protecting the reader in the lead picture, but not in the rest of the article. Do we put bras on the breast pictures? Why not? I'm an artist. I was trained to draw the human body by looking at the human body. I couldn't have been trained properly on a clothed body-not enough information, and frankly had I been presented with a clothed model, I would have been offended. Our readers need information. Can we put ourselves in place of a reader who has never seen a pregnant body?(olive (talk) 14:06, 4 September 2011 (UTC))
- (e/c) B - Frankly, the argument "offending people is never a consideration for an encyclopedia" strikes me as a perversion of logic and common sense. There are obviously times when we have to present content that some people find distasteful in order to properly and fully explain a given point, but if we present such material as matter of unquestionable policy then we turn the entire project into one of those tactless, self-righteous oafs. You know who I mean: those people who feel entitled to be rude to anyone who's not like them, because they are convinced anyone who's not like them must be ignorant.
- I disagree with the assessment that one gets almost nothing from the clothed picture but a lot from the nude one. what exactly are you getting? The nude one shows a lot more skin, sure, but skin is not really relevant to the issue. The fact that you cannot quantify the difference you're talking about is a clear sign that the difference is emotional rather than intellectual, but if it's an emotional difference… why should your emotions on this matter outweigh the emotions of people who disapprove of the image? Olive does make an interesting argument, but I would counter by saying that we could physicalize the image without sexualizing it. Almost every pregnancy website has images of a women's exposed bellies that don't involve nudity; why are we different?
- Please note that I am not making a moral argument about nudity here. I'm fine with nudity as a rule. The moral argument I'm making is that we should not tweak people's noses for no good reason. Sure, one has to be a hell of a prude to object to this image, but wikipedia should not as a matter of policy assert that prudes are too stupid to pay attention to. Prudes are people too, and as an encyclopedia we ought to respect all of our readership. --Ludwigs2 14:35, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- Nudity is not sexuality, in my opinion anyway. Muscle, skin, position of weight per hip placement, position of baby per spinal position. What does the belly actually look like. we can't see any of that under clothes. Pregnancy is not just about the belly, it is a huge whole body change, and you can't see that under a top. We have to inform otherwise why bother. The reader is dealing with a physiological change and has to be able to see it prude or not. I guess I'll agree to just disagree.(olive (talk) 15:09, 4 September 2011 (UTC))
- Olive, a physician trying to diagnose a patient is a very different context than a general-purpose encyclopedia reader seeking information about pregnancy. That analogy seems so far afield to me that I'm a bit pessimistic about reaching a consensus here. Actually, though, Ludwigs2 expressed my viewpoint more articulately than I could, so I'll just agree with his comment of 14:35 4 Sept, above. MastCell Talk 17:48, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- Mastcell, the issue is information. A reader in a general purpose encyclopedia needs information, so does a physician, so does an artist. While an MD may need more of a certain kind of information than a WP reader, both need information. No none is suggesting that the reader needs to understand disease , but the reader does deserve to have a minimum amount of information pertaining to the human body in this physiological state. (olive (talk) 22:49, 4 September 2011 (UTC))
- Possible interpretation stemming from the masking problem. Dreadstar ☥ 22:59, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- Hmmm… I see. we need a picture of a naked woman to be sure she's not faking pregnancy with a watermelon. but then, how do we know that the nude image is not a non-pregnant woman with some artful photoshopping? How do we know it's not a photoshopped picture of a man? The mind boggles...
- Seriously, though, I'm not buying the 'we need nakedness because it's informative' argument. I could see that argument with respect to a bare belly, but extending it to full nudity is a real stretch (no pun intended). These images are not intended to add to content so much as give visual foci to orient the reader to the subject - neither picture explains what pregnancy means in any real way - and so using an informativeness argument is a bit odd. --Ludwigs2 00:11, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- LOL! Well, that's not my argument, I merely find that the current image is a precious and warm display of motherhood, the bare bones of mother and child captured in what to me is such a meanginful way that it truly represents the article's subject. Dreadstar ☥ 00:21, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- You think the current image is "precious and warm." You like the image. Okay.
- Now let's get serious here. Why do you believe that the current image is a better representation of the article's subject? Please be as specific as you can. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 00:33, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- Actually, I agree with Dread's assessment: I think it's a nice picture. The place where I disagree with Dread and and others is over the following
- Is the image anything more than aesthetically pleasing?
- Is the aesthetics of it sufficient cause to risk giving offense to those who might be offended by it?
- Some people have argued that it's more, some have argued the aesthetics is enough, I tend to think not on both grounds. There's room for debate. --Ludwigs2 03:58, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- I agree with Dreadstar that it's a beautiful picture. But the "I like it" argument is not good enough to keep the picture.
- "I tend to think not on both grounds." Agree (with this and all your other comments on this talk page so far). --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 10:27, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- Actually, I agree with Dread's assessment: I think it's a nice picture. The place where I disagree with Dread and and others is over the following
- LOL! Well, that's not my argument, I merely find that the current image is a precious and warm display of motherhood, the bare bones of mother and child captured in what to me is such a meanginful way that it truly represents the article's subject. Dreadstar ☥ 00:21, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- Possible interpretation stemming from the masking problem. Dreadstar ☥ 22:59, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- Mastcell, the issue is information. A reader in a general purpose encyclopedia needs information, so does a physician, so does an artist. While an MD may need more of a certain kind of information than a WP reader, both need information. No none is suggesting that the reader needs to understand disease , but the reader does deserve to have a minimum amount of information pertaining to the human body in this physiological state. (olive (talk) 22:49, 4 September 2011 (UTC))
- Olive, a physician trying to diagnose a patient is a very different context than a general-purpose encyclopedia reader seeking information about pregnancy. That analogy seems so far afield to me that I'm a bit pessimistic about reaching a consensus here. Actually, though, Ludwigs2 expressed my viewpoint more articulately than I could, so I'll just agree with his comment of 14:35 4 Sept, above. MastCell Talk 17:48, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- but the reader does deserve to have a minimum amount of information pertaining to the human body in this physiological state Pregnancy is more than the sum of the physical changes during pregnancy but okay...
- Be so kind and explain why you believe that the current image gives more relevant information about pregnancy. As I wrote elsewhere, it is true that we see more skin. We see stretch marks, cellulite, breasts, nipples, and Areola coloring etc. Women don't need to be pregnant to have stretch marks, cellulite, the same breast size and coloring. Can you prove that the woman in the picture didn't have the same stretch marks, cellulite, breast size, coloring etc. before her pregnancy? If you are interested in the physical tranformation you need a before picture. If we focus on the belly, I don't see how the current picture offers more information about pregnancy than the proposed new picture. The nude woman covers her belly and we only see her left side. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 23:46, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- Wow, that's a nasty, insulting post, and it distorts the comments by editors here. I'd suggest you try and restrain yourself. Dreadstar ☥ 00:08, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- Actually, I quoted one editor, olive. Please provide evidence that I misquoted him/her.
- I find the suggestion that editors who want to replace the current image are prudes distasteful. I find the suggestion that women's bodies are "deformed" during pregnancy distasteful. I find rewriting, moving, and otherwise editing other editors' comments distasteful. But I certainly don't find my request for more specific explanation nasty and/or insulting. Please be so kind, Dreadstar, and explain specifically and in detail why you believe that the current picture offers more information about pregnancy. You have been very unclear on that so far. Can you prove that the physical attributes that I described and that you find so nasty are related to her pregnancy? --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 00:28, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- Wow, that's a nasty, insulting post, and it distorts the comments by editors here. I'd suggest you try and restrain yourself. Dreadstar ☥ 00:08, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
I agree with Ludwigs2 that "offending people is never a consideration for an encyclopedia" is wrong, we always have to consider the wider picture. However in this case I would say that the encyclopedic value of retaining the original picture far outweighs the offence that might be caused to a minority of readers. Martin Hogbin (talk) 15:46, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- The discussion is not about getting ride of the image just moving it.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 17:18, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- Getting rid of it from the lead, is what it's about. Dreadstar ☥ 18:02, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- Well, it's become pretty obvious that the only major reason for moving the image is that it's nude. If it were a porn image, there might be something more to this argument, since porn is specifically meant for a different purpose than simple information. But the arguments for a nude image in the lead are, again, that there actually is more information in the unclothed image, if only to show what is not there. Olive did a good job of saying specifically what is there, but we are forgetting that the overall form is obscured by clothing. The relationships of the parts and how they stretch amazingly is a large part of the information, and very much obscured in the clothed image. The relevant information exists in what the image lacks, that is a believable support structure, and thus the nude image gives an idea of how drastically the whole body is deformed and changed, which the clothed image does not. And it is the informational value that we are trying to maximize, without regard to cultural bias unless there is no informational price. So again, why have that image in the lead specifically? Because it's a summary of pregnancy in picture form, and the lead is supposed to be a summary. Be——Critical__Talk 19:02, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- I agree that the image is fine in the lead. It is picture of the subject of the article. Martin Hogbin (talk) 19:36, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- And I argue that the only reason to keep the image is because it's of a nude woman. You are wrong to say that the image is more informative because she is nude--the only difference that a person could actually say for sure had changed is her stomach. The rest requires a fairly good image of what she looked like before. I argue that a nude image focuses more on her physical changes, while a clothed image would focus on both emotional and physical. Saibh (talk) 18:44, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- The discussion is not about getting ride of the image just moving it.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 17:18, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
Sonicyouth86, are you saying that if we were to procure a high quality image of a woman who met all our other criteria- good illustration and good photo quality etc., that it would be okay if she happened to be nude? Because that's not what I'm getting from the discussion. I'm getting that nudity itself is an issue for people. That hasn't been a hidden part of the discussion. Be——Critical__Talk 00:27, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- Could you explain why you believe that "nudity is an issue" for me or for the other editors who have voted in favor of replacing the current image?
- You wrote here that nude pictures show how a woman's body is "deformed" during pregnancy. I pointed out that if you want to focus on the physical changes during pregnancy (not just the belly) you need evidence that the physical attributes of the nude woman are really due to her pregnancy. It is possible that the woman had the exact same topographic skin changes on her hips (apparently, I am not allowed to say cellulite) before pregnancy. So why illustrate the topographic skin change on her hips if it is unrelated to her pregnancy?
- If you focus on the one obvious sign of her pregnancy, her belly, then there is no reason to believe that the current image offers more information about pregnancy than the new image.
- The fact that the new image is of better quality and of a woman of color... more advantages. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 01:02, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- It's a matter of how the evidence of pregnancy relates to the rest of the body. Not necessarily the changes of the body. As to the issue of nudity, it's there in the top of this discussion, and other places. Be——Critical__Talk 01:14, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- "It's a matter of how the evidence of pregnancy relates to the rest of the body." I'm not sure if I understand. Do you mean proportions? I really don't think that an average Wikipedia reader needs to compare the size of the belly to the size of other body parts in order to understand pregnancy. I doubt that readers will go: "Oh look, Nancy, that is one mighty big belly. It's twice as big as her head. Now I understand pregnancy, finally!" Moreover, the new proposed image is not worse in this regard. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 10:58, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- Um, yes, the clothed image is worse in this regard, as you say. And actually, your thought process seems to me fairly accurate. That's how humans think, and that's why we're able to deal with the real world, whereas robots have extreme difficulty dealing with real-life situations but are nevertheless good at chess or math. Be——Critical__Talk 21:41, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- "It's a matter of how the evidence of pregnancy relates to the rest of the body." I'm not sure if I understand. Do you mean proportions? I really don't think that an average Wikipedia reader needs to compare the size of the belly to the size of other body parts in order to understand pregnancy. I doubt that readers will go: "Oh look, Nancy, that is one mighty big belly. It's twice as big as her head. Now I understand pregnancy, finally!" Moreover, the new proposed image is not worse in this regard. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 10:58, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- It's a matter of how the evidence of pregnancy relates to the rest of the body. Not necessarily the changes of the body. As to the issue of nudity, it's there in the top of this discussion, and other places. Be——Critical__Talk 01:14, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
Copyright issues
Is this really an argument about nudity or is it about copyright and having the consent of an identifiable person? Martin Hogbin (talk) 15:19, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
Per Dreadstar above: "There are no licensing issues. The licensing was confirmed by an administrator/reviewer and was kept per two different deletion discussions."[14][15]. (olive (talk) 15:38, 4 September 2011 (UTC))
- Thanks. Martin Hogbin (talk) 15:46, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
There is no licensing issue with the current lead image, it was verified by an administrator/reviewer in 2006 [16] and was kept per two different deletion discussions[17][18] - including keep votes by the person purporting to be the photographer. Please read the comments made in both deletion discussions by the photographer, Inferis. Dreadstar ☥ 15:50, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- While the photographer and the subject (per the photographer) is fine with Wikipedia using the image he has stated he has never released it under a license that allows commercial use. And upon further questioning that he does not wish to release this image under a license that allows commercial reuse. If this get to FA this image will be a problem. Wikipedia requires that uploaders of images allow commercial reuseDoc James (talk · contribs · email) 17:26, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- Actually, the reviewer/administrator's comment says exactly the opposite of your assertions, that the image was indeed released under licensing that allows for its use in Wikipedia: [19]. And from the photographer's comments, he may be willing to re-upload the image and release it under whatever WP licensing needed; but it appears that this is not necessary since all indication are that appropriate licensing was established in 2006. Dreadstar ☥ 17:40, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- Per the uploader:
- "I'm not going to change the license because Wikipedia "requires" it. I never posted the photos to Wikipedia, but I'm fine with them being used. If there's any problem using the pictures now because of the license on flickr, so be it. Like I said, I don't mind them being used on Wikipedia, but I'm not going to change the license for everyone. Inferis (talk) 00:04, 8 January 2011 (UTC) Besides, as far as I can remember, the license has always been non-commercial. Inferis (talk) 00:04, 8 January 2011 (UTC)"
- [20] So yes there are concerns regarding the interpretation of this users comments. IMO it appears that he is okay with Wikipedia using it but does not lease it under a license that allows commercial reuse by anyway. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 17:45, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- Again, the permissions were established to be appropriate in 2006, and I'm not convinced that your conversation with the 'uploader' contained sufficient information, (e.g. your own comments, which change the context from this one image to all of the photographer's images on flickr; as well as displaying your own uncertainty about licensing issues:[21][22]. Dreadstar ☥ 17:58, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- If the uploader says it's "OK for Wikipedia" but has not explicitly allowed commercial reuse, then not only is it not fit for this page, it must be nominated for deletion as it does not comply with our image use policy: "Licenses which restrict the use of the media to non-profit or educational purposes only (i.e. non-commercial use only), or are given permission to only appear on Wikipedia, are not free enough for Wikipedia's usages or goals and will be deleted." It will therefore have to be nominated post-haste since it can't be on Commons, and I don't see anything remotely resembling a fair-use rationale being possible when there are plenty of replacement free images already, assuming we even wanted another nude pregnant woman. The existing permissions were not appropriate even in 2006 ("Wikipedia-only" licensing has been disallowed since May 19, 2005); it's just that the policies enabling its enforcement (policies, ironically, that I was critical enough about at that time, and still am ...) weren't agreed on until about late summer 2006). Daniel Case (talk) 01:00, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- Again, the permissions were established to be appropriate in 2006, and I'm not convinced that your conversation with the 'uploader' contained sufficient information, (e.g. your own comments, which change the context from this one image to all of the photographer's images on flickr; as well as displaying your own uncertainty about licensing issues:[21][22]. Dreadstar ☥ 17:58, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- Per the uploader:
- Actually, the reviewer/administrator's comment says exactly the opposite of your assertions, that the image was indeed released under licensing that allows for its use in Wikipedia: [19]. And from the photographer's comments, he may be willing to re-upload the image and release it under whatever WP licensing needed; but it appears that this is not necessary since all indication are that appropriate licensing was established in 2006. Dreadstar ☥ 17:40, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- While the photographer and the subject (per the photographer) is fine with Wikipedia using the image he has stated he has never released it under a license that allows commercial use. And upon further questioning that he does not wish to release this image under a license that allows commercial reuse. If this get to FA this image will be a problem. Wikipedia requires that uploaders of images allow commercial reuseDoc James (talk · contribs · email) 17:26, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
Let ask the uploader to clarify if he is willing to have this image under a creative commons license which allows commercial reuse... Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 19:17, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- I believe it's already been released under the appropriate license per the 2006 review; and I've already written the photographer off-wiki to find out more. Dreadstar ☥ 19:20, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- Great and I have asked for him to comment here [23] Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 19:25, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- Hopefully he'll respond to the off-wiki request so we can make certain we have the right person. You also might want to add more details, like the links to the copyright and OTRS pages; and the fact that he retains the copyright of his work, and retain the right to be attributed in accordance with the license chosen. The free license only concerns copyright, and the owner still has the option to take action against anyone who uses this work in a libelous way, or in violation of personality rights, trademark restrictions, etc... Things I included in my email to him. Dreadstar ☥ 19:38, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- Great and I have asked for him to comment here [23] Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 19:25, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- If you wish to add this to my comment please do.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 19:43, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks. One would hope you'd want to include the details so they could make a truly informed decision, but I guess not. Also, I don't know that we can rely on that talk page, have we confirmed that's the actual photographer? And no matter what the response from there, it's hard to get around the failed deletion request based on your same assertions about lack of licensing. If the photographer or his wife objected to the image being used on WP, then for the sake of sensitivity, I'd recommend its removal immediately - but that's clearly not the case. Dreadstar ☥ 19:56, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- If you wish to add this to my comment please do.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 19:43, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
Wikipedia does not allow people to upload images "for only Wikipedia's use" Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 19:59, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- And no one, to my knowledge, has claimed that here; and the image is clearly marked and has been verified as being under Attribution-ShareAlike 2.0 Generic (CC BY-SA 2.0). Dreadstar ☥ 20:00, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
Doc, as a newcomer here I am puzzled as to how the, 'proposal ... to move the current image (image 2) lower in the article to the section on second trimester and replace it with what some have deemed a better quality image...', would resolve any licensing problems. Could you explain please? Martin Hogbin (talk) 20:12, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- It doesn't and unless this issue is addressed the image will need to be removed from commons and thus from all the projects. I do not have an issue with a similar image however lower in the article. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:23, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- I do not follow you. You are proposing to move the lead image lower down. What is the reason for this? As you say it is nothing to do with licensing. Martin Hogbin (talk) 22:07, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- It doesn't and unless this issue is addressed the image will need to be removed from commons and thus from all the projects. I do not have an issue with a similar image however lower in the article. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:23, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
I hope the issue of licensing can be cleared up. But let's assume the photographer did originally post the images to Flickr with a licence that allowed commercial re-use, and has subsequently fixed this because that was never his intention, and has now stated that he doesn't not want the images to be used commercially. People make mistakes. Wikipedia and Commons should do the right thing and remove the images. Yes, the licence is irrevocable, which means if it has been or does get used commercially, then the photographer can't complain. That doesn't mean we should perpetuate the mistake and make commercial use more likely by continuing to host/use it. If the folk at Commons want to have their deletion discussions in an ethical vacuum then that's up to them. Wikipedia doesn't have to behave that way. Particularly as this is an image of a person, and not just some flower or bird. Colin°Talk 20:17, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- That all seems clear to me then, technically we are allowed to keep the image and the uploader has confirmed that they are happy with it remaining here. Or have I missed something? Martin Hogbin (talk) 22:09, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- I think you have it down perfectly, Martin! Dreadstar ☥ 22:35, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- No, you don't:
- In this instance, the photographer was not the uploader.
- Neither the uploader nor the photographer are (so far as we know) the subject, and both en.wiki and commons (relatively new, compared to this photo) privacy policies require that the subject of any nude photo consent to it being uploaded to WMF projects. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:00, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- Agree with WhatamIdoing per Commons:Photographs of identifiable people. Colin°Talk 18:34, 5 September 2011 (UTC) Ah, I see permission has been requested and sort-of given ("Knows its on WP" isn't strictly enough). We should really have a formal set of questions to make sure everyone is fully aware of what they have given away and allowed. Colin°Talk 18:39, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- No, you don't:
- I think you have it down perfectly, Martin! Dreadstar ☥ 22:35, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
This whole RfC is a pointless mess. It's obvious to me that its wording has changed at least twice since the discussion began. (Possibly more times.) Comments from editors therefore address different proposals. Any chance we can start again please, WITHOUT any changes to what we're discussing? HiLo48 (talk) 05:53, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- <sigh…> This is what I hate about wikipedia. Everyone gets so hyped up and paranoid about silly points. RELAX. Trust your fellow editors to do the right thing in the long run. I they don't, try, try again, but calmly please. It's either that or you might as well give it up as a lost cause and go play pinochle. --Ludwigs2 06:06, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- I'm actually concerned that I have made posts of my own here that bear no relationship to the current wording of the RfC. Should I go back and delete them, or strike them through? That would just increase the mess. But leaving them there is nonsensical too. HiLo48 (talk) 08:00, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
Nudity
Nudity in the context of such an article is not objectionable, but rather natural. It's enough to see the images retrieved by Google when searching for "pregnancy": the majority of them have an element of nudity in them, either total or partial. What I find really objectionable , on the other hand, with the images chosen to illustrate the Pregnancy article is that all women represented are of the white Caucasian type, and therefore fail to be representative of the diversity of the human species. Further, many arguments advanced here to remove the picture from the top seem inconsistent with the action proposed, which is to place it lower in the article. So, the arguments about licence issue, image quality and image of identifiable people do not fit with such action. Which leaves only one common denominator among the proponents of removing the image: undeclared censorship of nudity. Dessources (talk) 11:06, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- That last point is much the same conclusion that I have come to. Martin Hogbin (talk) 11:36, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
All those editors claiming that a clothed picture can tell us just as much may want to read this. How would know whether or not a person in a clothed image was wearing one of these? HiLo48 (talk) 22:38, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- Oh God ... we're really reaching for straws here. Daniel Case (talk) 00:47, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- Not at all. Those claiming "We know what's under the clothes" are applying a particular cultural perspective. (That there's only one layer of clothes there?) And one that's pretty silly for an encyclopaedia. There is a point in everyone's lives where they don't know what a pregnant lady looks like. That's where Wikipedia comes in. And there are better "pregnancy suits" than the one I've shown there. They are used in professional theatre, TV and movies, and are quite undetectable to most viewers WITHOUT undressing, getting very close, or touching. HiLo48 (talk) 04:39, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- Heavens to Betsy, you are being ridiculous! This is not an issue about whether the model in question is really pregnant. This is an issue about whether the image in question gives a decent depiction of pregnancy. As I said above (jokingly, because I didn't believe anyone could seriously go down this road) that picture of a naked pregnant woman could easily be a picture of a man photoshopped to look like a naked pregnant woman. I could do that myself (though I don't have the skills to do a quality job). If we are going to start questioning the veracity of images at this trivial level then it should be obvious to everyone that nakedness is no guarantee of veracity, because someone skilled with digital images could make Saddam Hussein look like a naked pregnant woman. Now lets drop this silly line of argument and get back to substantive points, please. --Ludwigs2 05:56, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- You have missed my point entirely, and gone close to being abusive there. I'm not sure I have the energy to try to explain it any further. As I have said earlier more than once, this is already an appallingly structured conversation, and every time I make a thoughtful post, someone misinterprets it or changes the subject. The poor level of discussion convinces me even more that the real motivation of some is simply a cultural (and hence non-rational) objection to nudity. HiLo48 (talk) 08:36, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- (e/c)I didn't miss your point at all. You are making the argument that we need to show a naked picture rather than a clothed picture so that people can 'really see' what pregnancy looks like. But that's not an argument that stands up under water. FOr instance, pregnant women often get swollen feet, hemorrhoids, acne, extra layers of fat: shouldn't we have a picture where people can 'really see' those as well? I suspect if we had such a picture you'd be arguing against it, because it would offend your sensibilities. Like many people (this is endemic in modern culture) you miss the distinction between information and trivia, as though everything you personally want to know - no matter how vain or trivial - should be a matter of public record. It's the same reasoning that makes tabloids, gossip columns, and the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Edition so wildly popular. Is that the level you want Wikipedia to operate on?
- The main value this nude picture has is that it is emotionally stirring (you can read that in the warm and fuzzy 'it's touching' sense or in a more prurient sense, as you like). You are arguing that the emotional stir you feel should take precedence over the negative emotional stir other people feel, by misrepresenting that emotional state as information. That's poor logic, and it degrades the value of the emotion. --Ludwigs2 16:26, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- I can't speak for HiLo, but personally I do not like pregnancy or am at best ambivalent about it. Nor do I think that the picture in question is very appealing. I don't want to come off as horrible to those who feel warm and fuzzy, but please don't think that it's about that emotion for everyone here. Be——Critical__Talk 16:35, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, it is. It's a "we don't put pictures of nude people up in the place where we work because we are mature adults who don't feel the need to constantly be titillated" cultural thing. It's not a "we don't like nude photos" thing ... this is actually a very nicely done photo. If we were to have an article on cultural attitudes towards pregnancy, or something like that, then I would support its inclusion there, perhaps as lead image even, because it would convey the same information as the famous Demi Moore Vanity Fair cover without the fair-use issue. Daniel Case (talk) 15:38, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- So it's not just about nudity, it's about thinking that nudity must be about fetishism. Got it. Be——Critical__Talk 16:19, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- You have missed my point entirely, and gone close to being abusive there. I'm not sure I have the energy to try to explain it any further. As I have said earlier more than once, this is already an appallingly structured conversation, and every time I make a thoughtful post, someone misinterprets it or changes the subject. The poor level of discussion convinces me even more that the real motivation of some is simply a cultural (and hence non-rational) objection to nudity. HiLo48 (talk) 08:36, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- Heavens to Betsy, you are being ridiculous! This is not an issue about whether the model in question is really pregnant. This is an issue about whether the image in question gives a decent depiction of pregnancy. As I said above (jokingly, because I didn't believe anyone could seriously go down this road) that picture of a naked pregnant woman could easily be a picture of a man photoshopped to look like a naked pregnant woman. I could do that myself (though I don't have the skills to do a quality job). If we are going to start questioning the veracity of images at this trivial level then it should be obvious to everyone that nakedness is no guarantee of veracity, because someone skilled with digital images could make Saddam Hussein look like a naked pregnant woman. Now lets drop this silly line of argument and get back to substantive points, please. --Ludwigs2 05:56, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- Not at all. Those claiming "We know what's under the clothes" are applying a particular cultural perspective. (That there's only one layer of clothes there?) And one that's pretty silly for an encyclopaedia. There is a point in everyone's lives where they don't know what a pregnant lady looks like. That's where Wikipedia comes in. And there are better "pregnancy suits" than the one I've shown there. They are used in professional theatre, TV and movies, and are quite undetectable to most viewers WITHOUT undressing, getting very close, or touching. HiLo48 (talk) 04:39, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
Wow Dessources, you put it so well. Agree on all points. And please, stop trying to pretend this is not about nudity: that's blatantly obvious. Everyone knows, as HiLo48 said "There is a point in everyone's lives where they don't know what a pregnant lady looks like." That is exactly the audience which an encyclopedia should address. We shouldn't be making assumptions about what the reader already knows, and therefore what we can afford to not show due to cultural bias. Let's not get side-tracked by the arguments concerning pregnancy suits. This should be about which picture best represents pregnancy as a pictorial summary of the subject for the lead. Inserting clothing between the subject (the pregnant body) and the viewer is simply a denial of information to the reader. We might not even know what information they're getting. No one can believably deny that the naked image conveys more information, and is a better summary of the subject, than the clothed image. This is all about nudity. If it's not about nudity, then will people be accepting of a brown-skinned nude woman? That's about the only valid point I see here for changing the current lead image. Be——Critical__Talk 15:37, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- B - First, I can and do reasonably deny that the naked picture has more information. You cannot reasonably argue that it does, not in any way that cannot be reduced to pure aesthetics. Second, you seem to be saying that Wikipedia should enforce your cultural bias over everyone else's. In most cultures, a question about what a pregnant woman looks like will lead to someone pointing out a clothed pregnant woman on the street, and further inquiries about what one 'really' looks like will result in instructions to get married and find out for oneself. Even in California, people would not answer a child's question about this by hiring a pregnant woman to come by their house and strip down, and yet you are essentially arguing that this is what wikipedia needs to do.
- Your argument seems to be that absolutely nothing should ever be left to the imagination (at least not where the human body is concerned). Not only is that impossible in any realistic sense, I question the wisdom of it, and I question motivations behind it. --Ludwigs2 16:45, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- That's right, as an encyclopedia, we don't leave things to imagination. And nudity isn't a cultural bias. Clothing is. Nudity is what you have when you don't have culture, and is thus NPOV. That's another argument here, that clothing is automatically not culturally neutral. Also, your argument applies to so many other things in WP that it should either be withdrawn or you should make it on all those other articles. Re your observation that questions about what a pregnant woman looks like are going to lead to being pointed to a clothed woman, that's true and that's when the asker turns to the internet, and to WP in particular when they want accurate info. And are you saying we should not have the image at all? Because the choice here is whether to have it in the lead, and so the decision is about which image better summarizes pregnancy. A question about whether a person at this article is going to see the nude picture isn't relevant. Be——Critical__Talk 17:03, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- So what you're saying is that what you believe isn't a cultural bias - only people different from you have cultural biases. and I take it from your opinion that you live in a nudist colony where people only wear clothes to keep warm? please… --Ludwigs2 17:19, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- Never said that. But nudity isn't a cultural bias because nudity is pre-cultural. Be——Critical__Talk 17:35, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- I guess this entire discussion makes no sense to me at all. We don't want the nude picture in the lead, but its OK further down. Nude breasts are apparently not acceptable in the lead but once again they're ok in other places. We don't want a picture of pregnant woman because it might titillate, but fetishes aren't the norm and we are not going to start censoring images on Wikipedia in case some one with a fetish comes along. Its ok on Wikipedia to show other body parts like a sprained ankle with out socks on [25] because that gives us information about what is going on in the body, but here a picture of a pregnant body, a significant physical change, must be covered. One editor suggested the emotional qualities in the photo were important but that was idea was stepped on despite the fact that if human offspring are not given physical care they die and if not given emotional care will be damaged emotionally. The picture in place gives us an over arching sense of human pregnancy which include both physical and emotional information. We take for granted information in our culture that has become so common place and so integrated into the culture that we no longer need the information itself but understand the information through a symbol. The picture of a woman with a bump under her shirt is symbolic of pregnancy in our culture. It is not necessarily informative to those who do not have the initial information that underlies the symbol. I can understand personal concerns about depicting nudity which none of us has a right to judge, but that isn't an argument for excluding an informative image in my opinion. Is it necessary to delineate personal concerns from the need of the article to inform?(olive (talk) 16:42, 6 September 2011 (UTC))
- Olive, The issue of nudity on wikipedia is tangled mess. As far as I can tell we have:
- editors who oppose the inclusion of nudity on moral/cultural grounds
- editors who advocate for the inclusion of nudity on prurient or aesthetic grounds
- editors who oppose the first group because of moral principles about freedom of expression and censorship
- In other words, we have three groups arguing from deep-seated emotional attachments to utterly incommensurate ideological precepts, and it's not always possible to tell who's making which argument at any given moment. it's a wonder the entire project hasn't gone up in flames.
- Olive, The issue of nudity on wikipedia is tangled mess. As far as I can tell we have:
- I guess this entire discussion makes no sense to me at all. We don't want the nude picture in the lead, but its OK further down. Nude breasts are apparently not acceptable in the lead but once again they're ok in other places. We don't want a picture of pregnant woman because it might titillate, but fetishes aren't the norm and we are not going to start censoring images on Wikipedia in case some one with a fetish comes along. Its ok on Wikipedia to show other body parts like a sprained ankle with out socks on [25] because that gives us information about what is going on in the body, but here a picture of a pregnant body, a significant physical change, must be covered. One editor suggested the emotional qualities in the photo were important but that was idea was stepped on despite the fact that if human offspring are not given physical care they die and if not given emotional care will be damaged emotionally. The picture in place gives us an over arching sense of human pregnancy which include both physical and emotional information. We take for granted information in our culture that has become so common place and so integrated into the culture that we no longer need the information itself but understand the information through a symbol. The picture of a woman with a bump under her shirt is symbolic of pregnancy in our culture. It is not necessarily informative to those who do not have the initial information that underlies the symbol. I can understand personal concerns about depicting nudity which none of us has a right to judge, but that isn't an argument for excluding an informative image in my opinion. Is it necessary to delineate personal concerns from the need of the article to inform?(olive (talk) 16:42, 6 September 2011 (UTC))
- Never said that. But nudity isn't a cultural bias because nudity is pre-cultural. Be——Critical__Talk 17:35, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- So what you're saying is that what you believe isn't a cultural bias - only people different from you have cultural biases. and I take it from your opinion that you live in a nudist colony where people only wear clothes to keep warm? please… --Ludwigs2 17:19, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- That's right, as an encyclopedia, we don't leave things to imagination. And nudity isn't a cultural bias. Clothing is. Nudity is what you have when you don't have culture, and is thus NPOV. That's another argument here, that clothing is automatically not culturally neutral. Also, your argument applies to so many other things in WP that it should either be withdrawn or you should make it on all those other articles. Re your observation that questions about what a pregnant woman looks like are going to lead to being pointed to a clothed woman, that's true and that's when the asker turns to the internet, and to WP in particular when they want accurate info. And are you saying we should not have the image at all? Because the choice here is whether to have it in the lead, and so the decision is about which image better summarizes pregnancy. A question about whether a person at this article is going to see the nude picture isn't relevant. Be——Critical__Talk 17:03, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- The obvious solution to my mind is to take the middle road - include nudity only where there is a clear and obvious need to do so, and where no non-nude picture will suffice. And in fact, I'm pretty sure this is the right solution because every time I suggest it I seem to piss off practically everyone (I have some people convinced I'm a censoring prude and others from different discussions who think I'm a licentious perv; a situation that clearly calls for some pithy phrase that can only be properly expressed in French). However, I think we are stuck with the misbegotten compromises that we come up with because there are just too many people working out their personal issues using Wikipedia as a form of drama-therapy.
- Ugh. I obviously need more coffee. --Ludwigs2 17:14, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is an educational forum. If I wanted children to understand pregnancy I would indeed show them a picture like the ne in the lead over one that is clothed. Children know that it is appropriate to clothe the body in public. How they view that body whether seeing shame or sexuality or anything else is taught. But as a disclaimer I have drawn nudes most of my life. I see a body as a beautiful working machine imbibed with human awareness that to draw and know it I have to see it. I don't see bodies as shameful, or something to be hidden, so my view may not be the norm. (olive (talk) 17:15, 6 September 2011 (UTC))
- honestly, if I had kids I'd do the same thing. I'm just worried about using wikipedia to impose that as a norm for everyone. and if you find any good phrases, let me know. I swear, I have a French soul trapped in an American's mind, which I'm pretty sure constitutes a new circle of hell. --Ludwigs2 17:39, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- Littleolive, I think your view is more the norm than you think, especially outside some parts of the US. Most northern European countries would have no problem at all with the nude image and even the relatively prudish UK would find the nude image quite appropriate for educating children. Martin Hogbin (talk) 17:41, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
Copyright issues
I do not think closing discussion of copyright issues was particularly helpful. It does seem clear that the copyright issue has nothing to do with the position of the disputed image within the article and thus is not relevant to the principle subject of the RfC, which is over the position of the image. That is why I have started a completely separate section for this subject.
I also agree that this page may not be the right place to discuss the wider licensing/copyright/privacy issues that have been raised here and I would support a consensus to move it elsewhere, however it has been discussed here and there does seem to be some unfinished business which might be better discussed somewhere rather than just pushed aside where it will continue to hamper the RfC discussions. Clearly if the disputed image is found to be in breach of WP policy on licensing/copyright/privacy then it will have to be removed regardless of the outcome of the RfC, however it is important not to conflate the two issues. Can I therefore suggest that all discussion regarding licensing/copyright/privacy is kept to this section, or whatever better home is found for this subject, and completely out of the RfC. Martin Hogbin (talk) 10:28, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- I contacted Inferis to ask him about the privacy issue, and he says the model is his wife and aware of it's use on Wikipedia. Hopefully this will resolve the policy issues.--HTalk 16:13, 5 September 2011 (UTC)Also, off topic, but I'm the user known as Honeymane, I've just recently changed my username. I realize this might cause some confusion.--HTalk 16:16, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- I think that pretty much nails it. Martin Hogbin (talk) 19:55, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- That resolves the permission issue but not the copyright issue.
I have not seen a statement from him anywhere that confirms he has granted permission for any and all commercial reuse of the image,or for modification in any way. Both of those conditions have to be met for it to comply with our image use policy. He has said he's "OK with it being used on Wikipedia" ... that is not enough, and hasn't been enough since 2005. Daniel Case (talk) 15:42, 6 September 2011 (UTC) - OK, I see that he has assented to dropping any NC restriction. But he should be further asked to clarify he has no problem with the derivative works aspect ... i.e., that anyone may modify it any way they want. Daniel Case (talk) 15:47, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- That resolves the permission issue but not the copyright issue.
- I think that pretty much nails it. Martin Hogbin (talk) 19:55, 5 September 2011 (UTC)