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::::::Now I added a Stanford University source for Will Hutton. --[[User:Mr. Magoo and McBarker|Mr. Magoo and McBarker]] ([[User talk:Mr. Magoo and McBarker|talk]]) 02:45, 5 October 2015 (UTC) |
::::::Now I added a Stanford University source for Will Hutton. --[[User:Mr. Magoo and McBarker|Mr. Magoo and McBarker]] ([[User talk:Mr. Magoo and McBarker|talk]]) 02:45, 5 October 2015 (UTC) |
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::::::I added two more for Will Hutton, I believe this settles it. --[[User:Mr. Magoo and McBarker|Mr. Magoo and McBarker]] ([[User talk:Mr. Magoo and McBarker|talk]]) 03:07, 5 October 2015 (UTC) |
::::::I added two more for Will Hutton, I believe this settles it. --[[User:Mr. Magoo and McBarker|Mr. Magoo and McBarker]] ([[User talk:Mr. Magoo and McBarker|talk]]) 03:07, 5 October 2015 (UTC) |
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:::::::I now notice Aquillion has returned after long being gone after the sources were posted. I looked into the history of Pincrete and Aquillion and found out they know each other: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Discrimination#Propose_widening_the_topic_area_of_.22Racism_in_....22_articles_through_moves_to_.22Racism_and_prejudice_in_....22_or_.22Discrimination_and_racism_in.22_titles |
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:::::::It's not a coincidence they find each other on the same side, again. They have a history of editing articles like this from the same viewpoint. --[[User:Mr. Magoo and McBarker|Mr. Magoo and McBarker]] ([[User talk:Mr. Magoo and McBarker|talk]]) 03:43, 5 October 2015 (UTC) |
Revision as of 03:45, 5 October 2015
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Political correctness is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed. | ||||||||||||||||||||||
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Untitled
Please Post All Comments at the End of this Page!
Please Note: This article is not about language evolution in general, nor mere euphemism.
Index 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 |
This page has archives. Sections older than 100 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present. |
Former Featured Article Nominee
(FormerFA)
A version of this article was once nominated (June 2004) to be a featured article.
See:
- Original nomination page: June 28 2004 version of this article.
- Why is was removed: Wikipedia:Featured article removal candidates/Political correctness/archive2
- Archived discussion: Talk:Political correctness/Featured article removal candidates results
False Accusations
This section is completely subjective and biased and should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.179.168.183 (talk • contribs) 15:17, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
- What's subjective or biased about it? It cites reliable sources for everything it says. --Aquillion (talk) 23:25, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
It suggests that the news story about Baa Baa Black Sheep is untrue but the basis of the story that the words were changed IS true. "They sing happy, sad, bouncing, hopping, pink, blue, black and white sheep etc." The whole point is that the words of the song were changed to make it meaningless. Black and white sheep exist. Pink and blue sheep dont. Black sheep are due to a genetic process of recessive traits and black wool is hard to sell. This is the meaning of the rhyme. The black sheep has "three bags full" because no one wants them. The idiom is thus deemed potentially racist - as meaning that black sheep are genetically inferior to white sheep. The words have been changed in a futile attempt to obscure this fact with the result that the rhyme has become meaningless. Whether this is a good idea or a bad idea the article is bang on the money. There were guidelines set out by Birmingham City Council stating the song should not be sung in schools. Where is the "false accusation" here? There was a policy to change the words and someone implemented a policy to change the words. The whole article is a patchwork of such retroactive after the fact denial and discontinuity by people who just can't cope with the fact that PC is a censorship agenda. It has no other purpose. And I disbelieve the statement in this article that the words were either pejorative and/or an in-joke. I remember the 1980s when comedy became "politically correct" and the words were about then and very real and not meant as a joke as they are and continue to be today. Utter biased rubbish. The worst of wikipediaAnthonyEMiller (talk) 10:26, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
Sapir-whorf
The Sapir-whorf connection is one of the weaker ones concerning the impact of language and can be traced to a multitude of more respected sources ranging from Hegel to Nietzsche to Heidegger. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.64.217.8 (talk) 05:41, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
Pejorative?
Absolutely ridic to see this is the first sentence! Should be removed! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eomurchadha (talk • contribs) 13:21, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
How did this article devolve?
Looking at the 2004 Featured Article version, it was once a readable article, although needing work in my opinion. The major missing piece would appear to be a dictionary definition in the lead. And I don't understand how the history of the term became divorced from a history of its usage.
So why not begin again with the Oxford English Dictionary?
"The avoidance, often considered as taken to extremes, of forms of expression or action that are perceived to exclude, marginalize, or insult groups of people who are socially disadvantaged or discriminated against."
This does not sound like a pejorative to me. PC can be "taken to extreme" (See National Association of the Deaf), but this does not mean the term is now synonymous with the "leftist language police", it is only conservatives who think so and use the term to attack liberal positions that some language does continue to "exclude, marginalize, or insult groups of people who are socially disadvantaged or discriminated against". However it is difficult to determine whether conservatives are saying that all liberal arguments are groundless because no insult is intended (or one can always find at least one liberal to be insulted by anything); or are they saying that anyone should be able to use any language whether it is insulting to others or not (also know as verbal harassment or bullying). Perhaps no one has a handle on the current meaning because there is no consensus among those that continue to use it.
I do not have the time to improve this article, my only interest is due to the term being used by many to argue about the topics of article that I do edit.FriendlyFred (talk) 04:08, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
- Wikipedia isn't a dictionary, so it doesn't make sense for an article to lead with a dictionary definition... and the purpose of the lead is to summarize the article, which indicates, overall, that the term has never had any significant non-pejorative meaning (and that its usage in the modern day was mostly forced into the public discourse specifically to serve as a pejorative political attack.) If you want the lead to say that it wasn't always pejorative, or that it has significant non-pejorative usage today, you need to find usable secondary sources stating that -- pointing at a dictionary definition and then saying "this doesn't look pejorative to me" is original research, after all. Beyond that, the core problem with the article has always been poor sourcing; the 2004 version passed FA when standards were much lower; it had terrible sourcing and would never pass FA today. So we need to focus on removing badly-sourced or poorly-sourced sections, and on finding high-quality sources to build the rest of the article around. An additional problem is that (because the term is very popular among talking heads) the article is full of people dropping random examples, opinion-pieces, essays and so forth into it; this is part of the reason many sections of it have ended up so incoherent. So it's important to think about how to arrange the aspects worth covering, and to remove the bits that seem to be giving WP:UNDUE weight to one controversy or opinion-piece. --Aquillion (talk) 05:45, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
- FriendlyFred, apart from our use of 'pejorative' (which I broadly agree with Aquillion about), and our using 'seen as excessively' rather than 'often considered as taken to extremes', our opening is inline with the OED definition already, isn't it?Pincrete (talk) 09:01, 10 August 2015 (UTC) ... ps the only change which might make sense is to change 'IS a pejorative' to 'ordinarily used as a pejorative', there are enough examples of non-pejorative usage, to claim that the term is not inherently pejorative.Pincrete (talk) 10:22, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
- FriendlyFred, apart from our use of 'pejorative' (which I broadly agree with Aquillion about), and our using 'seen as excessively' rather than 'often considered as taken to extremes', our opening is inline with the OED definition already, isn't it?Pincrete (talk) 09:01, 10 August 2015 (UTC) ... ps the only change which might make sense is to change 'IS a pejorative' to 'ordinarily used as a pejorative', there are enough examples of non-pejorative usage, to claim that the term is not inherently pejorative.Pincrete (talk) 10:22, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
- This is an article about the origin, meaning and usage of a term. A dictionary entry, particularly a descriptive definition, is a summary of the current usage of the term found by lexicographers. How is this OR? The WP is not a dictionary guideline states that an article begins with a definition of a topic and expands upon it. What better start than the dictionary?
- I came here to find out what the term means, but have had to drill down to the sources to do so. Perhaps I am just saying the article is poorly organized and the content does not appear to match what I have been reading in those sources. The article by Andrews (1996) is very helpful, contrasting Cultural Sensitivity (CS) and PC. While some may continue to use PC in the non-pejorative sense to refer to the implementation of CS with regard to language, that usage may now be in the minority, as per one of the more recent articles NPR. Conservatives have largely taken over the term to frame any discussion of Cultural Sensitivity as "just PC", often meaning "a few over-sensitive individuals have had their feelings hurt, but they have suffered no harm, or insufficient harm to infringe upon the right of free expression". What term can liberals now use to continue to discuss the words used by the majority or individuals in a position of power to insult or marginalize minorities?FriendlyFred (talk) 16:37, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
- I think what was meant was that concluding from a dictionary definition alone that a word was not pejorative was OR. I read 'your link', the author is complaining that the term has been 'hijacked', they are asking 'what is wrong with being political and being 'correct' in one's politics?', but fundamentally the piece is confirming that the term is ordinarily used in order to be dismissive or derogatory. A similar point is made by Polly Toynbee in our article.Pincrete (talk) 17:27, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
- Perhaps this is what I was seeking to clarify. The term PC no longer seems useful in conveying facts, if it ever was. It is like "tax relief" another term that conservatives use to frame the discussion of taxation as if it is always a burden unfairly imposed by the government, rather than an obligation citizens agree to share in order to maintain the common good. Political Correctness now frames another common good, civility in public discourse, as the unfair imposition of rules by "bleeding heart liberals". The moderate position, that sometimes objections to language are justified, and sometimes not, is hard to articulate given this polarization. The origins and prior meanings of PC are too prominent. I cannot know from reading the article which is the most common current meaning of the term, which is the only thing that interests me. Perhaps that is because there is none, and the term is a moving target. If there is no consensus in the real world how can there be one on WP? The only alternative is to attribute each statement to the author of its source, but in the absence of a RS that presents a NPOV, the cataloging of opinions tends toward SYNTH within sections with no overall sense.FriendlyFred (talk) 18:54, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
- I think 'moving target' is exactly it, in the UK examples of what I have seen described as PC language include, the word 'gay', (actually originally a 'code word' used by gay people themselves, the word came out of the closet!), 'Collateral damage' (actually a military euphemism), 'cosmetically/intellectually etc. challenged' (actually 'mock PC' insults) etc. etc. etc. I think the most common modern use is derogatory, though I'm not sure it ever had much 'serious' use. The first use I came upon ('80s) was self-mockery (using 'significant other' instead of same/other/no sex, wife/husband/partner/lover/boy-girlfriend/whatever you call yourselves).Pincrete (talk) 21:50, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
- Perhaps this is what I was seeking to clarify. The term PC no longer seems useful in conveying facts, if it ever was. It is like "tax relief" another term that conservatives use to frame the discussion of taxation as if it is always a burden unfairly imposed by the government, rather than an obligation citizens agree to share in order to maintain the common good. Political Correctness now frames another common good, civility in public discourse, as the unfair imposition of rules by "bleeding heart liberals". The moderate position, that sometimes objections to language are justified, and sometimes not, is hard to articulate given this polarization. The origins and prior meanings of PC are too prominent. I cannot know from reading the article which is the most common current meaning of the term, which is the only thing that interests me. Perhaps that is because there is none, and the term is a moving target. If there is no consensus in the real world how can there be one on WP? The only alternative is to attribute each statement to the author of its source, but in the absence of a RS that presents a NPOV, the cataloging of opinions tends toward SYNTH within sections with no overall sense.FriendlyFred (talk) 18:54, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
- I think what was meant was that concluding from a dictionary definition alone that a word was not pejorative was OR. I read 'your link', the author is complaining that the term has been 'hijacked', they are asking 'what is wrong with being political and being 'correct' in one's politics?', but fundamentally the piece is confirming that the term is ordinarily used in order to be dismissive or derogatory. A similar point is made by Polly Toynbee in our article.Pincrete (talk) 17:27, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
By definition things that are politically correct are things that mainstream media support, so since wikipedia relies on mainstream media citations nothing challenging any specific politically correct belief can get into the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.207.135.183 (talk) 04:17, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
- The above is incorrect on both counts: (1) PC is an element in the right-left culture wars, with many points of view on both sides in the mainstream media and (2) the best citations are academic analyses of these mainstream discussions.FriendlyFred (talk) 14:14, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
- FriendlyFred, sorry the cn tag was my response to a vague, PoV, IP, comment. Pincrete (talk) 17:51, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
- A talk page is for free discussion, thus the only meaningful response to nonsense is rebuttal, not the tags that would be used in an article.FriendlyFred (talk) 18:26, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
- FriendlyFred, sorry the cn tag was my response to a vague, PoV, IP, comment. Pincrete (talk) 17:51, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
Worldwide view banner ?
Is the 'worldwide view' banner still necessary? Examples are mainly UK/US but is there a distinct view outside these two which the article is not reflecting?Pincrete (talk) 12:02, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
Extremely biased/one-sided
The section on the '90's is jaw-dropping. Specific criticisms and specific important, well-known cases go completely unmentioned. Every criticism is attributed to "conservatives" and the "right-wing" and "reactionaries"...many of whom, we are then told, *ad hominem*, were former communists... However, in fact, PC was not a liberal movement, but--at least according to many liberals--a movement of the radical left. *Certainly it was opposed by many liberals.* One would at least expect some discussion of some of the flagship cases that gave content to the rhetoric of PC, and which generated the widespread anti-PC sentiment that were largely responsible for generating pushback against the movement--e.g. the infamous Penn "water buffaloes" case, the faculty response in the Duke Lacrosse case, the battles over speech codes at many different universities, the restriction of free speech to "free speech zones," the Antioch sex policy, the infamous 'niggardly' cases...one could go on and on...and on and on...but *none* of this is discussed here. How can a section on PC in the '90's not have a single such example?
Most of the section focuses on the *term* 'political correctness' rather than the phenomenon, about half the section is spent in thinly-veiled criticism of the "conservatives" who opposed the view, and the only discussion of semi-substantive points is the "liberal" response to these criticism--where the criticisms (never actual articulated) of "conservatives" are characterized without argument as attempts to prop up discrimination. Perhaps "poisoning the well" should re-direct here? The final unsubstantiated accusations of the section--e.g. that the term is "an empty right-wing smear"--seem plausible after reading a section in which every item is cherry-picked to support that very point.
Honestly, this is one of the most biased entries I've ever seen on Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.126.47.138 (talk) 14:02, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
- If you want to make additions, please provide reliable sources for the things you want to add! But I don't feel that the article is improved by trying to give it an exhaustive list of everything that anyone has ever claimed to be political correctness. As it is, there's a risk that the things you're talking about could fall into original research or synthesis -- that is, if you want to imply that there's a formal "PC movement" (rather than it just being a pejorative term people use to attack each other in politics), you need reliable sources saying so explicitly, not just a string of events that you feel represent it. --Aquillion (talk) 18:32, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
- User:134.126.47.138, I don't know the cases which you refer to as I'm UK. Many notorious cases in the UK during that period turned out to be fiction or were very falsely reported, or only called 'PC' by critics. There were numerous 'urban myths' in the UK about local govt's supposed policies in the '90s. But as Aquillion says, we need RSs rather than your or my recollection/interpretion of what was/was not 'PC'. Pincrete (talk) 19:30, 11 August 2015 (UTC) … … … Water buffalo incident, Duke lacrosse case, Antioch College, these are some of the events I think you are referring to, in terms of WP coverage, only Water buffalo incident, mentions PC as a factor. Personally, I don't see why notable incidents which were widely blamed on PC could not be a section, just as we have the 'false accusations' section.Pincrete (talk) 19:58, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
Lack of structure and coherence
I became involved with this article only because of a quibble over the lead. Looking it over though, there is an overall lack of structure and coherence, quite a lot seems off-topic and possibly OR (eg explaining scientific methodology or linguistic ideas in order to make a simple point about overlap with PC), section titles bear little relationship to content and aren't very informative nor do they progress coherently. Thoughts? Ideas? Strategy? Pincrete (talk) 12:16, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
- I generally agree. I think the best thing to do would be to focus primarily on it as a term, with sections for its history, who uses it and how, and the broad things people say about it. --Aquillion (talk) 22:34, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
- Initially I also though that defining the term would be the best starting place, but I now see, after reading some of the sources cited, that the "moving target" nature of the term precludes this. From reading several of the chapters in "Beyond PC" (Aufderheide (Ed.), 1992), there needs to be a focus on the history:
- The first use was very limited, but planted the seed for later usage: some socialists used it to describe American communists that continued to "toe the party line" after Stalin's 1939 non-aggression pact with Hitler. This was an act that the socialists, many of them Jewish, could not support, nor think of Russia as a true example of a Socialist government. One faction of the left was mocking another, but not in the global sense; there remained much agreement between the two groups in America in the 40s and early 50s. (Then came McCarthy and no one could admit to being any kind of leftist.)
- In the 1970s, some activists used the term to describe social and political change in the "correct" direction. Again, the term was used in discussion between different factions of the movement regarding priorities and tactics. However there was no real agreement on what the term meant, it was almost always in the context of a particular person's using it, whether that usage was positive, mocking/ironic, or negative.
- Before any consensus on a positive meaning could be reached (although the OED definition implies that it emerged, could they be wrong?) the opponents of social change took it up as a pejorative to describe the excesses of liberals, more than implying that they were all leftists. In the 80's and early 90's this was mainly confined to academia to describe many issues, not only language but all topics regarding racism and sexism. In this Dinesh D'Souza's book "Illiberal Education" defined the term, and the liberal response did not reclaim it, but defended the underlying social processes being criticized.
- There are few references to current usage, but the term seems to have moved into popular culture with only the entirely negative meaning while being abandoned in academia. All I want to do is to be able to explain something like this.FriendlyFred (talk) 06:03, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
- I am saying that the historical progression should be used to organize the entire article, limiting the History section to possible origins and beginning Modern usage with the 1970s. The subsection on the 1990s in the former covers the same material as the subsection on Education in the latter. The politicization of science likely began in the 90s also, but has become more prominent more recently.FriendlyFred (talk) 14:17, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
Vindictive protectiveness
Added a summary of a new article in the Atlantic. Much more could be said, and the article contains many references that could be used.FriendlyFred (talk) 18:09, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
- The problem is that the article isn't really about political correctness. In fact, the only section that mentions political correctness is here: "The press has typically described these developments as a resurgence of political correctness. That’s partly right, although there are important differences between what’s happening now and what happened in the 1980s and ’90s. That movement sought to restrict speech (specifically hate speech aimed at marginalized groups), but it also challenged the literary, philosophical, and historical canon, seeking to widen it by including more-diverse perspectives. The current movement is largely about emotional well-being." In other words, the authors briefly allude to their previous opinions on political correctness, but only to say that they believe trigger warnings are different (and even worse, which is saying something, coming from the president of FIRE.) I'd be cautious about relying on the one paragraph in there that mentions political correctness to source anything for this article, both because their main concern in that essay isn't political correctness, and because, well, one of them is the president of FIRE, whose views we already cover in the previous paragraph. Given that, I'm not sure it's a useful source for this article -- it would be more appropriate in an article on trigger warnings (or the section in Trauma trigger, anyway, since it lacks its own article.) --Aquillion (talk) 22:05, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
- It is a basic problem with the article: is it about the specific term "political correctness" or about an underlying social phenomena, the limiting of speech or behavior because it is continues the marginalization of a historically disadvantaged group? The current lack of focus is due to the former, including anything that anyone in the media has called "PC" even when it does not meet the criteria of the underlying phenomena. A backlash because the Dixie Chicks expressed a liberal view? Fringe science is not welcome in academia? Since when are country singers and white conservatives an historically disadvantaged group? I think the Vindictive protectiveness article has more to do with the underlying phenomena. It is proposing everyone as a potential member of a disadvantaged group, since everyone potentially has a "trigger" that might be activated.FriendlyFred (talk) 02:11, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
- The problem with 'an underlying social phenomena', is that WE are then subjectively determining what is/is not PC. I also think that while the 'underlying social phenomena', may be (have been?) real, the use of the term PC to describe such actions, is largely confined to critics (a feminist decrying a certain word, attitude or practice is probably not going to use the term 'PC', she is going to be more exact and forceful in her objection). To that extent, the article has to be about the use of a term. I suggested above that it is possible to include 'notable examples' of incidents criticised as being 'PC', though the danger there is that we will end up with every trivial use of the term.Pincrete (talk) 08:53, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
- It is a basic problem with the article: is it about the specific term "political correctness" or about an underlying social phenomena, the limiting of speech or behavior because it is continues the marginalization of a historically disadvantaged group? The current lack of focus is due to the former, including anything that anyone in the media has called "PC" even when it does not meet the criteria of the underlying phenomena. A backlash because the Dixie Chicks expressed a liberal view? Fringe science is not welcome in academia? Since when are country singers and white conservatives an historically disadvantaged group? I think the Vindictive protectiveness article has more to do with the underlying phenomena. It is proposing everyone as a potential member of a disadvantaged group, since everyone potentially has a "trigger" that might be activated.FriendlyFred (talk) 02:11, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
Jonathan Haidt was on MSNBC Aug. 11 to discuss the Atlantic article under the show title "How political correctness is impacting colleges". That is a difficulty with the term, it is so ingrained in the public mind that even saying "this is not PC, but something new" frames the discussion and Haidt does not try to reframe it.FriendlyFred (talk) 00:53, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
Historical canon
Aquillion, re. your quote: it also challenged the literary, philosophical, and historical canon, seeking to widen it by including more-diverse perspectives. Is this missing from the article? The (here only implied) accusation that 'gender studies' etc and changes to the mainstream curriculum were an 'attack' on academic values. At the moment, we largely concentrate on 'social' aspects.Pincrete (talk) 09:35, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
- I would be reluctant to use that specific quote as a basis for anything in the article, since it's just an aside in an essay about something else. My general feeling (again, given that one of the authors is the president of FIRE, which has a clear position on this topic that we already touch on) is that that paragraph is mostly a rhetorical device where they're referencing what they see as a past political conflict they were involved in in a 'reasonable' tone as part of a rhetorical flourish so they can say that they feel that trigger warnings are even worse. I do think that part of the difficulty in writing the article is that Greg Lukianoff might describe gender studies or the push for more diverse viewpoints as part of some unified push for "political correctness", but I don't think any of the people actually teaching within those fields generally would (and they would probably give different reasons than him for it.) We could try and find sources discussing that from various perspectives more directly, but again, I'm reluctant to rely on this one because here it's just mentioned in passing. --Aquillion (talk) 10:11, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
- I agree. We shouldn't be deciding what is PC and what isn't, we should only use sources which mention PC. When writing about "notable examples", I agree with Pincrete that we should be careful not to just mention everything we can find. To do that we should make sure it's discussed in several reliable independent sources. And to reply to FriendlyFred, if our sources all mention political correctness we should be ok. Doug Weller (talk) 12:51, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
- The reason I have not done as much work on this article is that the term has devolved into a rhetorical device. I don't see where there is any current sources that analyze all of the uses from a NPOV (As the Aufderheide book did in the 90s), which would be a basis for selecting and categorizing content from the current century. In the absence of such a source we are doing OR in selecting what is "really PC" or not; and including all the mentions of the term implying such a categorization is SYNTH. FriendlyFred (talk) 14:06, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
- Aquillion, just to clarify, I wasn't intending to use your quote, I was 'leaving a marker' as an aspect of the subject currently missing. I am hampered because I have no access to any libraries of any kind (expat), only online resources. It is almost inevitable, that it is the accusers who will define actions as 'PC', since the term is almost always dismissive, at best. Nonetheless I think overall balance is achievable. Hypothetically, "when institution X added controversial subject, to its curriculum commentator Y observed "Blah blah blah". Institution X replied by pointing out etc."Pincrete (talk) 15:16, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
- The reason I have not done as much work on this article is that the term has devolved into a rhetorical device. I don't see where there is any current sources that analyze all of the uses from a NPOV (As the Aufderheide book did in the 90s), which would be a basis for selecting and categorizing content from the current century. In the absence of such a source we are doing OR in selecting what is "really PC" or not; and including all the mentions of the term implying such a categorization is SYNTH. FriendlyFred (talk) 14:06, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
- I agree. We shouldn't be deciding what is PC and what isn't, we should only use sources which mention PC. When writing about "notable examples", I agree with Pincrete that we should be careful not to just mention everything we can find. To do that we should make sure it's discussed in several reliable independent sources. And to reply to FriendlyFred, if our sources all mention political correctness we should be ok. Doug Weller (talk) 12:51, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
Entertainment section
Adding the Seinfeld content meant deciding where to place it. Certainly not notable enough to go directly under the "Modern usage" section and not directly related to the other existing sub-sections. Certainly there is more to say about PC in entertainment.FriendlyFred (talk) 19:05, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
Foucault
The item bothered me, so I looked at the cited source and found it to be a published interview rather than something written by Foucault. It is also in French.
I read a little French but would not rely upon it for anything technical.
Basically, the term is used relative to its origin regarding the leftist "party line", thus the move to the prior section.
The cited question and answer in its entirety, according to Google translate:
How would you define your attitude to the action and politics?
The French left has lived on the myth of a holy ignorance. What changes is the idea that a political thought can not be politically correct only if it is scientifically rigorous. And to that extent, I think all the effort is being done in a group of communist intellectuals to reassess the concepts of Marx finally to resume at the root, to analyze, to define the use that we can and must do, it seems to me that all this effort is an effort to both political and scientific. And the idea that it is turning away from politics than to devote himself, as we do now, to strictly theoretical and speculative activities, I think this idea is completely false. This is not because we turn away from the policy we are dealing with theoretical problems so narrow and so meticulous, it is because we now realize that any form of political action can only be articulated the most closely on a rigorous theoretical reflection.
The Original:
Comment pourrait-on définir votre attitude à l'égard de l'action et de la politique ?
La gauche française a vécu sur le mythe d'une ignorance sacrée. Ce qui change, c'est l'idée qu'une pensée politique ne peut être politiquement correcte que si elle est scientifiquement rigoureuse. Et, dans cette mesure, je pense que tout l'effort qui est fait actuellement dans un groupe d'intellectuels communistes pour réévaluer les concepts de Marx, enfin pour les reprendre à la racine, pour les analyser, pour définir l'usage que l'on peut et qu'on doit en faire, il me semble que tout cet effort est un effort à la fois politique et scientifique. Et l'idée que c'est se détourner de la politique que de se vouer, comme nous le faisons maintenant, à des activités proprement théoriques et spéculatives, je crois que cette idée est complètement fausse. Ce n'est pas parce que nous nous détournons de la politique que nous nous occupons de problèmes théoriques si étroits et si méticuleux, c'est parce qu'on se rend compte maintenant que toute forme d'action politique ne peut que s'articuler de la manière la plus étroite sur une réflexion théorique rigoureuse.
Not sure whether this adds anything, though its function was to serve as a 'bridge'. The (unintended?) consequence of that 'bridging', was to imply that Foucault said it and shortly therafter 'the US left' were parroting it. Pincrete (talk) 08:59, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
Seinfield redux
We should only include his comments if we include other comments on what he said, eg [1] and [2] by Dean Obeidallah. There's more of course. Doug Weller (talk) 20:34, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
- I feel that devoting an entire section to it is WP:RECENTISM that grants WP:UNDUE weight to his opinion. If we had a larger section with a wider variety of sources on other aspects, maybe he could get one sentence or so, but as it is it feels like an entire section is being devoted purely to his opinion -- it's hard to imagine that, a year or so from now, his comments will still be worth covering. Adding other people commenting on his comments would help a bit in terms of balance, but it would mean we're focusing even more attention on his personal opinions, which seems like a mistake. I mean, that's a risk throughout the article, but this section in particular was nothing but his opinion and reactions to it. Being well-known as a comedian doesn't make his comments automatically important or relevant here, at least not to the extent of devoting a whole section to them like this. --Aquillion (talk) 21:02, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
- I agree with Aquillion, that this is UNDUE and off-topic. This is pretty much a 'throw-away' remark by an individual on a talk-show. If we rephrased the sentence 'well known middle-aged comic believes that 20 year old college kids are too PC, because they don't laugh at his jokes anymore', it would give a better idea of the real weight of the remark. Including the criticism would improve matters, but is the page about Seinfeld? Comedy? Generational differences? Changes in what is acceptable humour? Pincrete (talk) 21:29, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
- I agree as well - personally I don't think this should be in the article at all. In the long history and use of this term, this little episode/comment is pretty insignificant. Fyddlestix (talk) 22:02, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
- Upon reflection, the two responses to Seinfeld, discuss 'how things have changed' as well as him, I could see the potential for that as a worthwhile section, however the focus would need to move away from JS himself and critics to the broader issues, if the material supports such a section. Pincrete (talk) 09:39, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
- I agree as well - personally I don't think this should be in the article at all. In the long history and use of this term, this little episode/comment is pretty insignificant. Fyddlestix (talk) 22:02, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
- I agree with Aquillion, that this is UNDUE and off-topic. This is pretty much a 'throw-away' remark by an individual on a talk-show. If we rephrased the sentence 'well known middle-aged comic believes that 20 year old college kids are too PC, because they don't laugh at his jokes anymore', it would give a better idea of the real weight of the remark. Including the criticism would improve matters, but is the page about Seinfeld? Comedy? Generational differences? Changes in what is acceptable humour? Pincrete (talk) 21:29, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
- I feel that devoting an entire section to it is WP:RECENTISM that grants WP:UNDUE weight to his opinion. If we had a larger section with a wider variety of sources on other aspects, maybe he could get one sentence or so, but as it is it feels like an entire section is being devoted purely to his opinion -- it's hard to imagine that, a year or so from now, his comments will still be worth covering. Adding other people commenting on his comments would help a bit in terms of balance, but it would mean we're focusing even more attention on his personal opinions, which seems like a mistake. I mean, that's a risk throughout the article, but this section in particular was nothing but his opinion and reactions to it. Being well-known as a comedian doesn't make his comments automatically important or relevant here, at least not to the extent of devoting a whole section to them like this. --Aquillion (talk) 21:02, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
Congratulations
This article is officially at the bottom of Wikipedia. I came here to learn about political correctness and I find an article constantly fighting to convince people that "it's not a bad thing", "people just don't understand it," and "It doesn't even exist." It reads like a definition that is followed by 10 pages of rebuttal from people who identify so much with liberalism they have to protect it to protect themselves.
You have cherry-picked your sources so hard you struggle wildly to even present a readable page.
All of you should be ashamed of yourselves for smearing the Wikipedia project with this filth. Wikipedia is better than this. YOU are better than this.
73.190.174.12 (talk) 15:30, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
- Thanks for the congratulations and constructive suggestions, it's always nice to be appreciated.Pincrete (talk) 16:28, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
Congratulations Pt. 2 (left-wing affiliation attribution)
- This article does seem to be managed by those it criticizes. It's constantly mentioned Dinesh D'Souza, referred to as simply an "author" by the article itself, is right-wing and conservative. When a left-wing author, who is associated with a left-wing party, is quoted; his political view isn't to be mentioned because it's completely unrelated? They undo any such mention. My god. Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 23:48, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
- The reason D'Souza is identified as conservative and right-wing is twofold: First, his politics are highlighted in all of the sources that discuss his role in this topic. Second, maybe more importantly, he's primarily notable as a conservative political commentator (for conservative think-tanks like the American Enterprise Institute, the Heritage Foundation, the Hoover Institution, and so on.) In a situation like that, we have to follow what the sources say on the topic and highlight why what he says matters. The people you added 'left-wing' to, though, are primarily notable as academics; their politics aren't really the focus of the things written about them, nor is it really what makes their opinions significant. (This isn't to say that they don't have politics, but highlighting them absent a source focusing on them in this context is a WP:NPOV and WP:OR violation for the same reason eg. it would be wrong to quote Richard Alley as "left-wing climatologist Richard Alley" or the like.) We do use 'liberal' and 'left-wing' as identifiers in other parts of the article where they're properly-sourced as relevant. --Aquillion (talk) 01:39, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- Very likewise Polly Toynbee and Will Hutton are both associated with the Labour Party. Toynbee even stood for Social Democratic Party as a candidate. These are the only two I added political affiliations to. Toynbee is even more political than D'Souza, Hutton only comparable. Richard Alley is not associated with the left wing nor the Labour Party. Isn't that just a straw man? Picking the most non-political person ever and then acting like I'm treating them as political. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 03:06, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- Mr. Magoo, SDP was about as centrist/liberal as you can get, it even merged with the Liberal party eventually, but I am fairly sure Toynbee was never a candidate. SDP was formed precisely because the Labour party had become too left-wing for some people. I think you would find it very hard to find sources in the UK that described either as 'left-wing'. Social democrat (not capitals), would probably be accurate for both.Pincrete (talk) 07:25, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- On her article it says she strongly criticized the merging with the Liberal party, and because of that left SDP and rejoined Labour. Her article also states she's urging the Labour party to be even more left-wing, which means she's to the left from the Labour party. In addition she did gather 9351 votes in the 1983 election, standing for SDP. However she did not get elected, as she finished third. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 09:44, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- Mr. Magoo, SDP was about as centrist/liberal as you can get, it even merged with the Liberal party eventually, but I am fairly sure Toynbee was never a candidate. SDP was formed precisely because the Labour party had become too left-wing for some people. I think you would find it very hard to find sources in the UK that described either as 'left-wing'. Social democrat (not capitals), would probably be accurate for both.Pincrete (talk) 07:25, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- Very likewise Polly Toynbee and Will Hutton are both associated with the Labour Party. Toynbee even stood for Social Democratic Party as a candidate. These are the only two I added political affiliations to. Toynbee is even more political than D'Souza, Hutton only comparable. Richard Alley is not associated with the left wing nor the Labour Party. Isn't that just a straw man? Picking the most non-political person ever and then acting like I'm treating them as political. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 03:06, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- The reason D'Souza is identified as conservative and right-wing is twofold: First, his politics are highlighted in all of the sources that discuss his role in this topic. Second, maybe more importantly, he's primarily notable as a conservative political commentator (for conservative think-tanks like the American Enterprise Institute, the Heritage Foundation, the Hoover Institution, and so on.) In a situation like that, we have to follow what the sources say on the topic and highlight why what he says matters. The people you added 'left-wing' to, though, are primarily notable as academics; their politics aren't really the focus of the things written about them, nor is it really what makes their opinions significant. (This isn't to say that they don't have politics, but highlighting them absent a source focusing on them in this context is a WP:NPOV and WP:OR violation for the same reason eg. it would be wrong to quote Richard Alley as "left-wing climatologist Richard Alley" or the like.) We do use 'liberal' and 'left-wing' as identifiers in other parts of the article where they're properly-sourced as relevant. --Aquillion (talk) 01:39, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- This article does seem to be managed by those it criticizes. It's constantly mentioned Dinesh D'Souza, referred to as simply an "author" by the article itself, is right-wing and conservative. When a left-wing author, who is associated with a left-wing party, is quoted; his political view isn't to be mentioned because it's completely unrelated? They undo any such mention. My god. Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 23:48, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
- Mr. Magoo &, to the left of what? There are people in all the parties urging them to be more left, more right, more centre all the time. But anyway this is OR, and synth. Is Toynbee generally described as 'left-wing' by most RS? I doubt it, 'Left of centre', 'social democrat', 'liberal', (all without caps) perhaps. The paper she mainly writes for (Guardian) is broadly 'left of centre' but has no permanent political loyalty. Pincrete (talk) 14:58, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- How in the world is that OR? I literally simply visited her Wikipedia page and all of that was there. Her article's not even that big. And Labour is "left from centre", as it's described centre-left. Then we take into account she's urging them to be more left, as stated in the very header of her article. Where does that leave her? Not even left of centre is enough. Her article also has the following description of her: Toynbee has been described as "the queen of leftist journalists." --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 21:12, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- You can't use a Wikipedia page as a source. Even if you could, the issue isn't "she has been described as liberal in some reliable source"; the issue is "does that label matter for this topic?" For example, D'Souza is a Christian (as it says on his article, and as is covered by many reliable sources), but we don't describe him as a Christian here, because no sources have highlighted that as relevant to the topic. All sources that discuss D'Souza in relation to this topic, though, make it clear that his conservative politics are central to his involvement. You would need something similar for the other labels you want to add; we can't, ourselves, take an academic and decide that in this situation they are speaking "as a liberal" or "as a conservative", but we can rely on the numerous sources about D'Souza's position in this particular case. --Aquillion (talk) 21:25, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- The Wikipedia page has already listed the sources, which means I'm referring to them. And she hasn't been described "liberal" (which is you watering down her stance), she's described "leftist" by a fairly neutral Wikipedia article. And why bring up religion? The article constantly refers to right-wing writers. It has 11 mentions of "right-wing"! That's just with the wing alone, many more referring to simply "right" (harder to count from unrelated rights). Toynbee is considerably more politically active "wing" than D'Souza. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 22:09, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- We still can't use a Wikipedia page as a source, regardless of how you feel about it. If you want, you can go to the other sources you're referring to and we can discuss those, but the key point is whether they're relevant to what we're quoting her for here -- we need sources on that specifically, which you haven't provided. You've asserted that it's relevant; you've argued that it's relevant based on your own personal readings of 'leftist' and 'liberal' and her position and the article as a whole, but all of that is WP:OR. What you need to provide are something similar to the numerous sources we have that put D'Souza's publication in the context of a larger conservative broadside against what he sees as a liberal bias in higher education. You are arguing, implicitly, that Toynbee et all are part of a left-wing response to that, but to imply that in the article, you need sources saying so specifically. It should not be hard to find them, if it is as obvious as you're saying. --Aquillion (talk) 22:19, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- Wait then, I'll just paste them here. Also, in that case I request each instance of right-wing to be dropped from the article. It shall only be applied when you find an academic source that describes the person in question to be right-wing. Any news article won't do since they won't do for Polly Toynbee either, it seems. The subsection "Right-wing political correctness" shall also be retitled "Other instances of political correctness." --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 22:34, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- We still can't use a Wikipedia page as a source, regardless of how you feel about it. If you want, you can go to the other sources you're referring to and we can discuss those, but the key point is whether they're relevant to what we're quoting her for here -- we need sources on that specifically, which you haven't provided. You've asserted that it's relevant; you've argued that it's relevant based on your own personal readings of 'leftist' and 'liberal' and her position and the article as a whole, but all of that is WP:OR. What you need to provide are something similar to the numerous sources we have that put D'Souza's publication in the context of a larger conservative broadside against what he sees as a liberal bias in higher education. You are arguing, implicitly, that Toynbee et all are part of a left-wing response to that, but to imply that in the article, you need sources saying so specifically. It should not be hard to find them, if it is as obvious as you're saying. --Aquillion (talk) 22:19, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- The Wikipedia page has already listed the sources, which means I'm referring to them. And she hasn't been described "liberal" (which is you watering down her stance), she's described "leftist" by a fairly neutral Wikipedia article. And why bring up religion? The article constantly refers to right-wing writers. It has 11 mentions of "right-wing"! That's just with the wing alone, many more referring to simply "right" (harder to count from unrelated rights). Toynbee is considerably more politically active "wing" than D'Souza. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 22:09, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- You can't use a Wikipedia page as a source. Even if you could, the issue isn't "she has been described as liberal in some reliable source"; the issue is "does that label matter for this topic?" For example, D'Souza is a Christian (as it says on his article, and as is covered by many reliable sources), but we don't describe him as a Christian here, because no sources have highlighted that as relevant to the topic. All sources that discuss D'Souza in relation to this topic, though, make it clear that his conservative politics are central to his involvement. You would need something similar for the other labels you want to add; we can't, ourselves, take an academic and decide that in this situation they are speaking "as a liberal" or "as a conservative", but we can rely on the numerous sources about D'Souza's position in this particular case. --Aquillion (talk) 21:25, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- How in the world is that OR? I literally simply visited her Wikipedia page and all of that was there. Her article's not even that big. And Labour is "left from centre", as it's described centre-left. Then we take into account she's urging them to be more left, as stated in the very header of her article. Where does that leave her? Not even left of centre is enough. Her article also has the following description of her: Toynbee has been described as "the queen of leftist journalists." --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 21:12, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- Mr. Magoo &, to the left of what? There are people in all the parties urging them to be more left, more right, more centre all the time. But anyway this is OR, and synth. Is Toynbee generally described as 'left-wing' by most RS? I doubt it, 'Left of centre', 'social democrat', 'liberal', (all without caps) perhaps. The paper she mainly writes for (Guardian) is broadly 'left of centre' but has no permanent political loyalty. Pincrete (talk) 14:58, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
Instead of pasting these to the right, I'll paste them to the left here where there's more space. I can add more but here's a few:
http://inthesetimes.com/article/13634/defender_of_the_commonweal
Polly Toynbee, The Guardian’s voice of leftist dissent
Polly Toynbee, the queen of leftist journalists
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0319h3b
queen of leftist journalists
Journalist posits Polly as strongly left-wing.
http://www.thecommentator.com/article/1480/polly_always_sees_red_toynbee_s_rewriting_of_history
Polly is again described as strongy leftist.
Polly is again described as strongly leftist.
--Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 22:47, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
Here's a quote straight from her:
http://www.totalpolitics.com/print/230562/toynbee-and-hutton-on-fairness-and-the-left.thtml
left-wing people are more intelligent, and just generally better people
She also seemingly describes The Guardian as left-wing press.
She also talks about Will Hutton, the other person I added the centre-left note about:
Will Hutton is a perfect example of just the kind of intelligent, independent-minded left-wing commentator that costs Labour votes according to Toynbee.
--Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 22:53, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- You're missing the point. The question isn't whether people have described her as leftist; the question is whether people have described her as leftist in this context. "Someone called her leftist once, therefore we must slap that as an identifier in front of everything she says" is inappropriate. You need sources specifically stating that her views on this subject are part of that view, in the same way that eg. you would need sources relating them to her race, religion, or gender before you could add that as a disclaimer. Meanwhile, for the 'conservative' identifiers you're talking about, the sources are already in the article. See eg. Wilson, John. 1995. The Myth of Political Correctness: The Conservative Attack on High Education. Durham, North Carolina: Duke University Press (especially the "Conservative Correctness", since you asked for a cite for the 'right-wing political correctness' section). Or, for D'Souza's role and the importance his conservative politics played in it, see D. Charles Whitney and Ellen Wartella (1992). "Media Coverage of the "Political Correctness" Debate". These are respectable academic sources by historians and scholars who have carefully analyzed the subject of political correctness as a term, traced its history, and go into depth on the politics involved; whereas most of the sources you listed above are links to blogs, tabloids, and opinion pieces, none of them touching on this topic, which you are using to try and argue via WP:SYNTH that Toynbee's politics are relevant here. I'm not denying that people have described Toynbee as left-wing; my point, as I've said several times, is that in order to use that as a qualifier to her quotes here, you need a source relating it to that quote specifically. You seem to believe that if someone is identified as left-wing anywhere, that this means we must use that as a disclaimer to anything they say everywhere; but this is not true. Most people do not get such identifiers. D'Souza gets one in this case solely because there is overwhelming coverage that his role in this subject was part of a larger conservative push against what they saw as left-wing bias in academia. If you want to argue that Toynbee et all are part of some liberal pushback, that's fine, but you need sources for that specifically -- you cannot simply post a bunch of opinion pieces and blogs arguing that she's left-wing in general, and take it as a given that anything anyone who is left-wing does or says is defined by that label. --Aquillion (talk) 23:02, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- If you go through the sources, they describe her left-wing in this particular context as well. I think you simply didn't bother going through the links. I'll state again: the article has 11 mentions of right-wing without need of sources or context. You now provided one which talks about "conservative correctness." That's not the same thing, is it. Especially right after your speech about context. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 23:06, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- I don't see any academic sources in your list describing her position on this subject as left-wing. I see one quote, in an opinion piece, that mentions the term at all, in passing, and without reference to her views on its history. I don't see any discussing the essay she's quoted for here (whereas we have numerous academic sources discussing D'Souza's positions as they relate directly to Illiberal Education and his efforts to push this term in particular.) Virtually all of the sources you provided are either opinion-pieces, blogs, tabloids, or all three; none of them are usable for statements of fact (such has someone's political position.) I provided an academic source that goes into extensive depth, which you dismissed based on (I guess?) its section heading. Here are some more if you want, covering various aspects you've objected to: Manufacturing the Attack on Liberalized Higher Education, Ellen Messer-Davidow. Debra L. Schultz, To Reclaim a Legacy of Diversity: Analyzing the 'Political Correctness' Debates in Higher Education. Paul Lauter, 'Political Correctness' and the Attack on American Colleges". James Axtell, The Pleasures of Academe: A Celebration & Defense of Higher Education. Valerie L. Scatamburlo, Soldiers of Misfortune: The New Right's Culture War and the Politics of Political Correctness. These are all high-quality sources by respectable experts in the field going into depth on this subject in particular; your sources are blogs, tabloids, and opinion-pieces by talking heads focusing on unrelated subjects. Most of the sources you provided fail the standard that WP:RS places on making statements of fact about a living person, and none of them focus on this subject the way the ones I've listed do. --Aquillion (talk) 23:18, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- Here is a book which talks about both Polly Toynbee and Will Hutton as leftists on the matter of political correctness: https://books.google.com/books?id=H5i7BAAAQBAJ&pg=PT32
- The book was published by Imprint Academic: http://www.imprint.co.uk/, "A peer-reviewed journal which examines issues in plain English." --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 23:21, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- You're confused, I think? It was published in Andrews UK Limited, at least according to Google Books. That's a self-publishing service which offers print-on-demand. Imprint Academic is likewise a self-publishing service; it specializes in peer-reviewed journals (that is to say, it publishes some, in addition to stuff like the thing you linked), but that doesn't mean that everything published through them was published in a peer-reviewed journal. Either way, anyone can publish anything they please through either service; the book you're linking wasn't peer-reviewed or even approved by a conventional publisher. Things published via self-publishing services don't pass WP:RS and can't be cited here. --Aquillion (talk) 23:27, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- It was first published through Imprint Academic. Apparently there are two publishers. And like I wrote, you require me to find some sort of an academic book only published by the most highest authority clearly stating that yes, Polly Toynbee is left-wing in the particular context of political correctness. Near a dozen newspapers and articles and a book as close to full academic as you can get aren't enough. Meanwhile you throw random sources out which don't even mention the words right-wing. And that's just fine in your view. Everything's as it should be. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 23:35, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- A self-published source and a bunch of WP:NEWSBLOGs and opinion pieces (most of which make no mention of political correctness) isn't enough, no! The sources I cited are all high-quality, all go into depth on the subject, and several of them do mention 'right-wing'. (Scatamburlo even has 'The New Right' in the title, if you don't want to read the papers themselves!) --Aquillion (talk) 23:40, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- Does he attribute it to D'Souza? Is there such a quote to be had? I posted some new sources. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 23:50, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- A self-published source and a bunch of WP:NEWSBLOGs and opinion pieces (most of which make no mention of political correctness) isn't enough, no! The sources I cited are all high-quality, all go into depth on the subject, and several of them do mention 'right-wing'. (Scatamburlo even has 'The New Right' in the title, if you don't want to read the papers themselves!) --Aquillion (talk) 23:40, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- It was first published through Imprint Academic. Apparently there are two publishers. And like I wrote, you require me to find some sort of an academic book only published by the most highest authority clearly stating that yes, Polly Toynbee is left-wing in the particular context of political correctness. Near a dozen newspapers and articles and a book as close to full academic as you can get aren't enough. Meanwhile you throw random sources out which don't even mention the words right-wing. And that's just fine in your view. Everything's as it should be. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 23:35, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- You're confused, I think? It was published in Andrews UK Limited, at least according to Google Books. That's a self-publishing service which offers print-on-demand. Imprint Academic is likewise a self-publishing service; it specializes in peer-reviewed journals (that is to say, it publishes some, in addition to stuff like the thing you linked), but that doesn't mean that everything published through them was published in a peer-reviewed journal. Either way, anyone can publish anything they please through either service; the book you're linking wasn't peer-reviewed or even approved by a conventional publisher. Things published via self-publishing services don't pass WP:RS and can't be cited here. --Aquillion (talk) 23:27, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- I don't see any academic sources in your list describing her position on this subject as left-wing. I see one quote, in an opinion piece, that mentions the term at all, in passing, and without reference to her views on its history. I don't see any discussing the essay she's quoted for here (whereas we have numerous academic sources discussing D'Souza's positions as they relate directly to Illiberal Education and his efforts to push this term in particular.) Virtually all of the sources you provided are either opinion-pieces, blogs, tabloids, or all three; none of them are usable for statements of fact (such has someone's political position.) I provided an academic source that goes into extensive depth, which you dismissed based on (I guess?) its section heading. Here are some more if you want, covering various aspects you've objected to: Manufacturing the Attack on Liberalized Higher Education, Ellen Messer-Davidow. Debra L. Schultz, To Reclaim a Legacy of Diversity: Analyzing the 'Political Correctness' Debates in Higher Education. Paul Lauter, 'Political Correctness' and the Attack on American Colleges". James Axtell, The Pleasures of Academe: A Celebration & Defense of Higher Education. Valerie L. Scatamburlo, Soldiers of Misfortune: The New Right's Culture War and the Politics of Political Correctness. These are all high-quality sources by respectable experts in the field going into depth on this subject in particular; your sources are blogs, tabloids, and opinion-pieces by talking heads focusing on unrelated subjects. Most of the sources you provided fail the standard that WP:RS places on making statements of fact about a living person, and none of them focus on this subject the way the ones I've listed do. --Aquillion (talk) 23:18, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- If you go through the sources, they describe her left-wing in this particular context as well. I think you simply didn't bother going through the links. I'll state again: the article has 11 mentions of right-wing without need of sources or context. You now provided one which talks about "conservative correctness." That's not the same thing, is it. Especially right after your speech about context. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 23:06, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
Here are some more:
https://books.google.com/books?id=-0jqaa-73mgC&pg=PA161
"Open University Press"
left-wing Guardian newspaper columnist Polly Toynbee
https://books.google.com/books?id=e8WoAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA170
British liberal-left journalist Polly Toynbee
https://books.google.com/books?id=bx9h0XuYSlUC&pg=PA119
prominent left-wing journalist Polly Toynbee
https://books.google.com/books?id=0MIoXxnwmAUC
left-wing social-policy commentator Polly Toynbee
--Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 23:47, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
Some less academical ones:
https://books.google.com/books?id=8-AKAQAAMAAJ
The above one is a lot less academic but goes into great detail about Polly and her, quote: "leftist" political correctness.
https://books.google.com/books?id=q0gKAQAAMAAJ
Polly Toynbee, a left-wing British journalist for the Guardian
https://books.google.com/books?id=-SpLAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA107
Toynbee, in particular, has made her mark as a commentator; her op-ed pieces in the Guardian, penetrating, provocative and polemical, are always worth reading. She is the standard-bearer for a particular kind of leftwing politics: aggressively feminist, militantly atheist, conspicuously compassionate towards favoured victim groups, she gives voice to an important constituency within the broader left.
--Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 00:09, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
I think all of these books and sources have established that she's commonly referred to as a left-wing journalist. Among were a few attributing the same to Will Hutton. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 00:25, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
- Apart from Aquillon's point about relevance, (why not describe her as conspicuously compassionate?) many of your quotes say 'leftist' which means 'left-leaning', and the last one says 'within the broader left', ie 'left of centre'. Pincrete (talk) 06:57, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
- Many of them also describe her left-wing. And according to dictionary definitions, leftist either means a member of the left i.e. a left-winger or leaning like you say; which then coupled with the many that call her left-wing and the fact that she stood in the elections for a left-wing party would mean she's most likely being referred to as the former as in left-wing by those you pointed out only talking about leftist. Also, the last one called her a standard-bearer for an aggressively social-values version of "leftwing" (note the leftwing that comes before your broader left), which is the one most often blamed of and related to political correctness. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 09:36, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
- Apart from Aquillon's point about relevance, (why not describe her as conspicuously compassionate?) many of your quotes say 'leftist' which means 'left-leaning', and the last one says 'within the broader left', ie 'left of centre'. Pincrete (talk) 06:57, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
- Well the whole world can be divided into left or right, but it isn't very subtle or precise. No one in the UK would define the SDP as 'left-wing', it was formed and supported by people who, yes believed in 'social justice policies' but who strongly opposed the Labour party at that time for being unrealistically left-wing. It was almost the epitome of slightly-left-of-centre. But why is her political affiliation relevant to her remarks, which are mainly about people who want to use derogatory language such as 'Paki(Pakistani), spastic, or queer (faggot) '. Pincrete (talk) 16:33, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
- But she was later disillusioned with SDP as they joined with the Liberal Party, and she joined with Labour once again. And she has apparently changed over time, as now she's urging Labour to be more left. Left has two meanings these days, both economical and social. She most likely represents both. Her contextual view is of the social left. Her description of criticism of political correctness also reeks of a straw man, which picks the heaviest insults people get punished for instead of the slightest. Few contest punishments for the heaviest insults, yet she describes absolutely everyone using the term PC to be these kind. Her motivation is of course to elevate even the slightest perceived affronts to be heavily punishable. One such recent case comes to mind, when Alexander Carter-Silk messaged a woman on LinkedIn that her profile photo is stunning. Whether that is sexism can be argued about. To Polly Toynbee, it most likely can't be argued about. Her motivation is most likely to force her will that cases like this can't be argued about. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 17:04, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
- I very much doubt if she is NOW urging Labour to be more left-wing, under Blair, Brown, Milliband perhaps, especially over 'social-welfare' issues (not economic, she has never to my knowledge advocated state-ownership or increased union powers, or leaving EU and NATO, all of which are defining characteristics of 'the left' in UK). However this does not answer the question why is it relevant ? Hers is a very caustic characterisation of why people object to 'PC language', sure. That isn't a particularly right-left issue. I'm ignoring your speculations about what PT possibly thinks about hypothetical situations. Pincrete (talk) 19:51, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
- I just explained. You didn't bother reading but the first two sentences? --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 21:21, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
- What did you explain? Why it is relevant? Most of what I see is speculation about what she probably believes/what she would probably think or do. Pincrete (talk) 22:13, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
- I explained why it's a left-right issue. Obviously you only read the first two and last two sentences. Left has two meanings these days, both economical and social. She does seem to represent both. Many of her opponents cry foul of her economical in addition to social leftism in the above sources. But her contextual view is of the social left. Also, if left and right are only economical, why does the article refer to the right-wing with and without the dash 13 times, and to the "right" 4 times? If it means fiscally conservative, what does that have to do with political correctness? --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 22:29, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
- btw. This is the 'left-wing party' that Toynbee was a candidate for, its core policies are described as having been Centrism and Social liberalism. At the same time there was a much more strongly 'left' Labour party. But none of this is anyway relevant to her views on PC-ness. Pincrete (talk) 22:23, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
- Firstly, she has possibly changed her stance like I've written many times. She's now encouraging Labour to be even more left. Secondly, we don't know why she changed to SDP at the time. Maybe it's because SDP had a stronger push of social liberalism. She changed with her husband, so that might be it. Or maybe it's because she might've not been as economically left as today. And most of all, the centrist description of SDP might be from their final years, just before the actual merger, when they ceased to exist. Perhaps before that they were centre-left. But all in all, she stands very much deep in the left now. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 22:29, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
- And why would you push this into another subsection? I didn't make the "Left Wingers" section as you edited it to look like (I wouldn't make a section with such name in any case), I responded to the Congratulations subsection. That's where it all began. The opening is only a few lines long. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 23:35, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
- What did you explain? Why it is relevant? Most of what I see is speculation about what she probably believes/what she would probably think or do. Pincrete (talk) 22:13, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
- I just explained. You didn't bother reading but the first two sentences? --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 21:21, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
- I very much doubt if she is NOW urging Labour to be more left-wing, under Blair, Brown, Milliband perhaps, especially over 'social-welfare' issues (not economic, she has never to my knowledge advocated state-ownership or increased union powers, or leaving EU and NATO, all of which are defining characteristics of 'the left' in UK). However this does not answer the question why is it relevant ? Hers is a very caustic characterisation of why people object to 'PC language', sure. That isn't a particularly right-left issue. I'm ignoring your speculations about what PT possibly thinks about hypothetical situations. Pincrete (talk) 19:51, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
- But she was later disillusioned with SDP as they joined with the Liberal Party, and she joined with Labour once again. And she has apparently changed over time, as now she's urging Labour to be more left. Left has two meanings these days, both economical and social. She most likely represents both. Her contextual view is of the social left. Her description of criticism of political correctness also reeks of a straw man, which picks the heaviest insults people get punished for instead of the slightest. Few contest punishments for the heaviest insults, yet she describes absolutely everyone using the term PC to be these kind. Her motivation is of course to elevate even the slightest perceived affronts to be heavily punishable. One such recent case comes to mind, when Alexander Carter-Silk messaged a woman on LinkedIn that her profile photo is stunning. Whether that is sexism can be argued about. To Polly Toynbee, it most likely can't be argued about. Her motivation is most likely to force her will that cases like this can't be argued about. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 17:04, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
- Well the whole world can be divided into left or right, but it isn't very subtle or precise. No one in the UK would define the SDP as 'left-wing', it was formed and supported by people who, yes believed in 'social justice policies' but who strongly opposed the Labour party at that time for being unrealistically left-wing. It was almost the epitome of slightly-left-of-centre. But why is her political affiliation relevant to her remarks, which are mainly about people who want to use derogatory language such as 'Paki(Pakistani), spastic, or queer (faggot) '. Pincrete (talk) 16:33, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
- I looked into the other sections and I noticed that quite many accused the article of being written by political correctness pushers and being biased. Who do I see responding to all of them? You and Aquillion. You vaguely, casually shoot down all of their points, which seem valid enough. Even then most likely most wishes of change are shot down at the editing section, like I once were multiple times. You are practicing systematic control of the article to fit your lopsided view. This article has little to no views of those editors who would accuse someone of political correctness, but it's mostly been written by those who deny political correctness exists and who think anyone using it is an extreme right-winger or alike (you seemed to hold the opinion that anyone using the term automatically also uses strong racial epithets). Even adding a note that a quote comes from a notably left-wing politically correct person — with the article already FULL of similar remarks (17 mentions of the right) for anyone vaguely right-wing — takes an eternity to fight through. Have you ever considered what kind of an editor a centrist would be on a hotly politically contested article? He would note party affiliations for all. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 23:53, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
- I changed the sub-section title, since the subject clearly ISN'T 'congratulations, if you want to change it to something else, please do so.
- You change it to a straw man to make me look bad. And my line starts out of nowhere like that of a madman's. You're such a handful. But, to appease concensus, I shall let it be but with a new title that really explains what the section is about. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 01:09, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- MIGHT MIGHT MIGHT MIGHT MIGHT. Perhaps PT's cat told her to join the SDP, perhaps SDP was secretly an anarcho-syndicalist organisation waiting to show its true face. I'm sorry this speculation is a waste of both our times. As far as I can see the only party affiliation noted in the article is 'Australian Labor leader Mark Latham'. D'Souza is described as 'conservative author Dinesh D'Souza' and elsewhere as a 'right-wing libertarian'. In Michel Foucault it is implied that he is Marxist, since his Marxism is relevant to what he is saying, but I could see no one else whose politics were characterised.
- Her article is full of attributions of her party support to Labour. She's active all around, calling for more political correctness and calling the Labour to be more left. SDP can be disregarded. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 01:09, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- Re: Even adding a note that a quote comes from a notably left-wing politically correct person … … who is the notably left-wing politically correct person, and noted by whom as being 'politically correct'?
- Her article itself has a quotation which calls her "the high priestess of our paranoid, mollycoddled, risk-averse, airbagged, booster-seated culture of political correctness." --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 01:09, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- Re: This article has little to no views of those editors who would accuse someone of political correctness, but it's mostly been written by those who deny political correctness exists … firstly WP isn't a blog to put the views of those editors who would accuse someone of political correctness …
- Secondly, in the modern usage, the term is almost always derogatory, it is almost always being used by 'critics'. Almost no organisation or individual, ever says 'I/we are doing this to be more politically correct',(except humourously) the term is almost always used to 'belittle' the language or policy being introduced. So yes, PC does NOT exist except in the perception of critics, as a blanket term to describe various tendencies of which they disapprove. The tendencies may be real (efforts to make language or policies less sexist, racist etc. etc.), some of those tendencies and policies may be TERRIBLE ideas, or badly implemented. Others may be ideas that most civilised humans would welcome (like racial epithets being no longer acceptable), but either way, the idea that there is a single 'mindset' behind all these tendencies that is called 'political correctness', that idea exists almost SOLELY in the minds of critics. Pincrete (talk) 18:07, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
- According to you. Again, the talk page has had plenty of opinions against that. You shoot them all down, utilizing one or two sources at best. If they have any sources of their own, you question of the source's validity on whatever vulnerability you can find. Your own sources, even though always shoddy at best, are never to be questioned. And I never brought up any single mindset so I don't understand where you're going with that. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 01:09, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- I changed the sub-section title, since the subject clearly ISN'T 'congratulations, if you want to change it to something else, please do so.
Pincrete's Bradley correct. As for Steve Moxon (whistleblower), there's no chance we'd use him as a reliable source except in his article for his own opinions. Doug Weller (talk) 18:18, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
- Doug Weller, sorry I don't understand your comment.Pincrete (talk) 19:07, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
- User:Pincrete, I'm referring to the author of the Imprint Academic book[3] mentioned above. See also[4] Doug Weller (talk) 20:35, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
- I've allowed myself to get side-tracked about this. Aquillon's point seems the pertinent one, are Toynbee and Hutton's political views widely seen as relevant to their views on PC? The second point is simply that we AREN"T in general identifying individual's political allegiances in the article. No one would deny that both Toynbee and Hutton are 'on the left' (mainly on social rather than economic issues in the case of Toynbee), but why would we include it, rather than their professions, or any of the other characteristics for which they are known. 'Left-winger' is crude and uninformative rather than wrong. Pincrete (talk) 08:36, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
- It seems you have taken the matter into your own hands without concensus, so I properly undid your edit until we find concensus. I also added a source to the page itself this time to appease you. Firstly, it's not "left-winger" but left-wing. Secondly, I have to yet again point out the article has 13 mentions of right-wing with and without dash and 4 mentions of the right. D'Souza himself is called "right-wing" in the header of the article. You seem to have little interest in these facts. You seem to ignore them every time I mention them. I have also provided an academic source (not the Imprint one) of Polly being called a left-wing columnist. Very many near-academic sources also describe her as left-wing. Two, while talking about Polly, also happened to attribute the very same to Mr. Hutton. In light of these facts, how can you still disagree? On a personal note, I'm interested: why are you so vehemontly interested in removing Polly Toynbee's political affiliation in a hotly-contested political article? I hope to continue our discussion amiably. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 01:09, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- Going by the people who have weighed in on this specific topic, I do sort of see a consensus against your changes -- in fact, you seem to be the only one advocating them. In any case, since you're making a claim about a living person, and since you're suggesting a change to an article, the burden is on you to get consensus to include it. Regarding your specific points, though: We have many sources in the article that D'Souza's politics are relevant to this specific topic, and specifically to the publications we're discussing. There's no similarly high-quality sources stating that Toynbee and Hutton's political views are relevant here. The issue isn't whether you can prove people have said they're left-wing or the like; the issue is that it violates WP:NPOV to always qualify someone's statements with their politics, religion, or some other identifier. You need some specific reason to do so, and your sources and arguments here haven't provided that. --Aquillion (talk) 02:31, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- Whom? Aquillion gave up after I posted the sources. There's only you, who ignores the sources. I have yet to see any sources that call D'Souza right-wing especially. I asked for one, didn't get it. And I provided the academic source — which especially states left-wing — which you are again ignoring. The reason for noting is that the article has, like I've mentioned what four times now: 13 mentions of right-wing with and without the dash and 4 mentions of the right. This is a political article. Political affiliations are noted. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 02:40, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- Now I added a Stanford University source for Will Hutton. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 02:45, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- I added two more for Will Hutton, I believe this settles it. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 03:07, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- I now notice Aquillion has returned after long being gone after the sources were posted. I looked into the history of Pincrete and Aquillion and found out they know each other: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Discrimination#Propose_widening_the_topic_area_of_.22Racism_in_....22_articles_through_moves_to_.22Racism_and_prejudice_in_....22_or_.22Discrimination_and_racism_in.22_titles
- It's not a coincidence they find each other on the same side, again. They have a history of editing articles like this from the same viewpoint. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 03:43, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- Going by the people who have weighed in on this specific topic, I do sort of see a consensus against your changes -- in fact, you seem to be the only one advocating them. In any case, since you're making a claim about a living person, and since you're suggesting a change to an article, the burden is on you to get consensus to include it. Regarding your specific points, though: We have many sources in the article that D'Souza's politics are relevant to this specific topic, and specifically to the publications we're discussing. There's no similarly high-quality sources stating that Toynbee and Hutton's political views are relevant here. The issue isn't whether you can prove people have said they're left-wing or the like; the issue is that it violates WP:NPOV to always qualify someone's statements with their politics, religion, or some other identifier. You need some specific reason to do so, and your sources and arguments here haven't provided that. --Aquillion (talk) 02:31, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- It seems you have taken the matter into your own hands without concensus, so I properly undid your edit until we find concensus. I also added a source to the page itself this time to appease you. Firstly, it's not "left-winger" but left-wing. Secondly, I have to yet again point out the article has 13 mentions of right-wing with and without dash and 4 mentions of the right. D'Souza himself is called "right-wing" in the header of the article. You seem to have little interest in these facts. You seem to ignore them every time I mention them. I have also provided an academic source (not the Imprint one) of Polly being called a left-wing columnist. Very many near-academic sources also describe her as left-wing. Two, while talking about Polly, also happened to attribute the very same to Mr. Hutton. In light of these facts, how can you still disagree? On a personal note, I'm interested: why are you so vehemontly interested in removing Polly Toynbee's political affiliation in a hotly-contested political article? I hope to continue our discussion amiably. --Mr. Magoo and McBarker (talk) 01:09, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- I've allowed myself to get side-tracked about this. Aquillon's point seems the pertinent one, are Toynbee and Hutton's political views widely seen as relevant to their views on PC? The second point is simply that we AREN"T in general identifying individual's political allegiances in the article. No one would deny that both Toynbee and Hutton are 'on the left' (mainly on social rather than economic issues in the case of Toynbee), but why would we include it, rather than their professions, or any of the other characteristics for which they are known. 'Left-winger' is crude and uninformative rather than wrong. Pincrete (talk) 08:36, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
- User:Pincrete, I'm referring to the author of the Imprint Academic book[3] mentioned above. See also[4] Doug Weller (talk) 20:35, 3 October 2015 (UTC)