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=== "Refs" === |
=== "Refs" === |
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{{reflist}} |
{{reflist}} |
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{{reply to|User:HistoryofIran}} |
{{reply to|User:HistoryofIran}} |
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'''First''' |
'''First''' |
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To the "'''''Historyofiran''''"' who accuses me to fabricat Information How It's fabricated ( when It's mentioned in source (1) That Sasanian called the Gulf '''Gulf of Arabs''' (!?) How can I fabricate this fact (lol), You may wanna Report GARY G. SICK and LAWRENCE G. POTTER for POV Pushing ! |
To the "'''''Historyofiran''''"' who accuses me to fabricat Information How It's fabricated ( when It's mentioned in source (1) That Sasanian called the Gulf '''Gulf of Arabs''' (!?) How can I fabricate this fact (lol), You may wanna Report GARY G. SICK and LAWRENCE G. POTTER for POV Pushing ! |
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'''Second''' |
'''Second''' |
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The book translated from Middle Persian ie '''Pahlavi''' to Modern Persian so It's obvious that you see Modern Terms like "Taziyan" (Arabs) Instead of Pahlavi "Tazigan" , The Book even translated and Published in Iran with exact Term '''Daryaye Tazian''' (Gulf of Arabs), (Screen shot provided) maybe The Persian authors are fabricating historical texts too!? |
The book translated from Middle Persian ie '''Pahlavi''' to Modern Persian so It's obvious that you see Modern Terms like "Taziyan" (Arabs) Instead of Pahlavi "Tazigan" , The Book even translated and Published in Iran with exact Term '''Daryaye Tazian''' (Gulf of Arabs), (Screen shot provided) maybe The Persian authors are fabricating historical texts too!? |
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Screen shot of the Persian Translation: see term درياي تازيان : Gulf of Arab |
Screen shot of the Persian Translation: see term درياي تازيان : Gulf of Arab |
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http://uupload.ir/files/1hk5_44444444444444444444444444444.jpg |
http://uupload.ir/files/1hk5_44444444444444444444444444444.jpg |
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{{reply to|User:Wario-Man}} |
{{reply to|User:Wario-Man}} |
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"'''''First'''''" |
"'''''First'''''" |
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Fare enough, the two gentelmen GARY G. SICK and LAWRENCE G. POTTER are not historian but they are quoting from a '''Historian''' which is expert in Iranian studies , If you see the page attached in ref (1) they cited a reference for their statement which is the book "''''' Eranshahr'''''" by [[Josef Markwart]] the German historian who was an expert in old Persian language and Iranian studies, enough says about him that the ''[[Encyclopædia Iranica]]'' wrote that: |
Fare enough, the two gentelmen GARY G. SICK and LAWRENCE G. POTTER are not historian but they are quoting from a '''Historian''' which is expert in Iranian studies , If you see the page attached in ref (1) they cited a reference for their statement which is the book "''''' Eranshahr'''''" by [[Josef Markwart]] the German historian who was an expert in old Persian language and Iranian studies, enough says about him that the ''[[Encyclopædia Iranica]]'' wrote that: |
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"''His books are full of profound and nearly inexhaustible erudition, revealing that their author was a learned historian, philologist, geographer, and ethnologist." <ref name="ei">{{cite web|url=http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/markwart-josef|title=MARKWART, JOSEF|work=iranicaonline.org}}</ref> The encyclopedia cited his 1901 book '''Ērānšahr''' as "still an authoritative work and probably his most important''"."<ref name="ei" /> |
"''His books are full of profound and nearly inexhaustible erudition, revealing that their author was a learned historian, philologist, geographer, and ethnologist." <ref name="ei">{{cite web|url=http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/markwart-josef|title=MARKWART, JOSEF|work=iranicaonline.org}}</ref> The encyclopedia cited his 1901 book '''Ērānšahr''' as "still an authoritative work and probably his most important''"."<ref name="ei" /> |
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Link to his book : https://archive.org/details/Eranshahr/page/n5 |
Link to his book : https://archive.org/details/Eranshahr/page/n5 |
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"'''''Second'''''" |
"'''''Second'''''" |
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This is the screen shot from page 167 of PhD. Touraj Daryaee the Iranian scholar's book Translted in Persian, mentioning '''دریای تازیان''' : "'''''Gulf of Arabs'''''" |
This is the screen shot from page 167 of PhD. Touraj Daryaee the Iranian scholar's book Translted in Persian, mentioning '''دریای تازیان''' : "'''''Gulf of Arabs'''''" |
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This book published in Iran and this is Its full Information : |
This book published in Iran and this is Its full Information : |
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Name : ناگفته های امپراطوری ساسانی |
Name : ناگفته های امپراطوری ساسانی |
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"The Untold Aspects of Sassanian Empire" |
"The Untold Aspects of Sassanian Empire" |
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Page : 167 |
Page : 167 |
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Screen shot of the page : http://uupload.ir/files/xjj0_pic20190311194725.jpg |
Screen shot of the page : http://uupload.ir/files/xjj0_pic20190311194725.jpg |
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⚫ | "'''And last word is a question, I don't know how a document from one of earliest Persian empires doesn't count "old" to you , you request a source even for this obiouvs fact that this document from Sassanian era considers "Old" but you don't need a source for a phrase which is not mentioned in cited Refrence in another page (lol) anyways you can change the term "'''Old'''" to what ever you like but this peace of information should add to this article and I'm reporting this double standard of engaging different topics to wiki Adminstartion anyways''" [[User:Ted hamiltun|Ted hamiltun]] ([[User talk:Ted hamiltun|talk]]) 14:15, 13 March 2019 (UTC) |
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⚫ | "'''And last word is a question, I don't know how a document from one of earliest Persian empires doesn't count "old" to you , you request a source even for this obiouvs fact that this document from Sassanian era considers "Old" but you don't need a source for a phrase which is not mentioned in cited Refrence in another page (lol) anyways you can change the term "'''Old'''" to what ever you like but this peace of information should add to this article and I'm reporting this double standard of engaging different topics to wiki Adminstartion anyways''" |
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⚫ | |||
: Here is the direct link to Touraj Daryaee's book regarding the so-called "Darya-e Tazigan" [https://archive.org/details/ShahrestanihaIEransahr/page/n53], the text is as shown: |
: Here is the direct link to Touraj Daryaee's book regarding the so-called "Darya-e Tazigan" [https://archive.org/details/ShahrestanihaIEransahr/page/n53], the text is as shown: |
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: -War I tazlgan; “Wall / Fortress of the Arabs” |
: -War I tazlgan; “Wall / Fortress of the Arabs” |
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:Markwart translates it as the “lake of the Arabs” (Markwart 1932; 14) |
:Markwart translates it as the “lake of the Arabs” (Markwart 1932; 14) |
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:"which he thought stood for the Persian Gulf. From the early Islamic pe- |
:"which he thought stood for the Persian Gulf. From the early Islamic pe- |
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:As you can see he explicitly rejects the translation "War-i Tazigan" as "Gulf of the Arabs", and instead translates it to "Wall/Fortress of the Arabs" (referencing the series of fortifications the Sassanids built on the south side of the Persian Gulf). He cites numerous other scholars (Nyberg, Morony, Frye, Bailey) to support his argument. |
:As you can see he explicitly rejects the translation "War-i Tazigan" as "Gulf of the Arabs", and instead translates it to "Wall/Fortress of the Arabs" (referencing the series of fortifications the Sassanids built on the south side of the Persian Gulf). He cites numerous other scholars (Nyberg, Morony, Frye, Bailey) to support his argument. |
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:And as for the picture you have linked of the Persian translation, you can see on the bottom right of that exact picture [http://uupload.ir/files/xjj0_pic20190311194725.jpg] (that has been cropped with low resolution) the following phrase: "بر دیوار تازیان بگمارده", which means "to mean the Arabian Wall". Which is again exactly the translation I have posted above. So seriously, who are you trying to fool with this? -- [[User:Qahramani44|Qahramani44]] ([[User talk:Qahramani44|talk]]) 04:54, 14 March 2019 (UTC) |
:And as for the picture you have linked of the Persian translation, you can see on the bottom right of that exact picture [http://uupload.ir/files/xjj0_pic20190311194725.jpg] (that has been cropped with low resolution) the following phrase: "بر دیوار تازیان بگمارده", which means "to mean the Arabian Wall". Which is again exactly the translation I have posted above. So seriously, who are you trying to fool with this? -- [[User:Qahramani44|Qahramani44]] ([[User talk:Qahramani44|talk]]) 04:54, 14 March 2019 (UTC) |
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::{{ping|Wario-Man}} & {{ping|Wikaviani}} Can we report him for a indef block him already? He keeps fabricating stuff that suits his pov-pushing agenda, it's actually sad. --[[User:HistoryofIran|HistoryofIran]] ([[User talk:HistoryofIran|talk]]) 14:39, 14 March 2019 (UTC) |
::{{ping|Wario-Man}} & {{ping|Wikaviani}} Can we report him for a indef block him already? He keeps fabricating stuff that suits his pov-pushing agenda, it's actually sad. --[[User:HistoryofIran|HistoryofIran]] ([[User talk:HistoryofIran|talk]]) 14:39, 14 March 2019 (UTC) |
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How can I try too fool any body when It mentioned in source 1 Sassanian Called the Gulf "Gulf of Arabs" you said it your self |
How can I try too fool any body when It mentioned in source 1 Sassanian Called the Gulf "Gulf of Arabs" you said it your self |
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"''Markwart translates it as the lake of the Arabs''" |
"''Markwart translates it as the lake of the Arabs''" |
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Is Markwart the well know iranologist was fabricating the truth, hah! |
Is Markwart the well know iranologist was fabricating the truth, hah! |
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And for the Petsian translations these are the High resolution screen shots from |
And for the Petsian translations these are the High resolution screen shots from |
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'''THE PAHALAVI TEXT, JAMASAP G''' : |
'''THE PAHALAVI TEXT, JAMASAP G''' : |
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http://uupload.ir/files/yi2c_333333333333333333333333333_(1).jpg |
http://uupload.ir/files/yi2c_333333333333333333333333333_(1).jpg |
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http://uupload.ir/files/ois_44444444444444444444444444444.jpg |
http://uupload.ir/files/ois_44444444444444444444444444444.jpg |
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Toujad daryaree, Untold Aspect th Sasanian empire : |
Toujad daryaree, Untold Aspect th Sasanian empire : |
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http://uupload.ir/files/2y0d_1111111111111111111111111111.jpg |
http://uupload.ir/files/2y0d_1111111111111111111111111111.jpg |
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http://uupload.ir/files/jwmx_22222222222222222222222222222.jpg |
http://uupload.ir/files/jwmx_22222222222222222222222222222.jpg |
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⚫ | |||
: >>It mentioned in source 1 Sassanian Called the Gulf "Gulf of Arabs" you said it your self, Is Markwart the well know iranologist was fabricating the truth, hah! |
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[[User:Ted hamiltun|Ted hamiltun]] ([[User talk:Ted hamiltun|talk]]) 14:46, 14 March 2019 (UTC) |
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: What is mentioned in the source (both from Daryaee and Markwart) is that the Sassanids referred to an entity called "War-i Tazigan". Markwart translated "War" to Gulf and claimed it meant "Arabian Gulf", Daryaee disputes this and cites Henrik Nyberg and Richard Frye (two well known Iranologists), and a few other scholars (Bailey, Bahar, Behzadi) to show that "War" means "Wall" in Middle Persian, and referred to the Sassanid fortification system on the Arabian Peninsula. Markwart being a respected Iranologist doesn't make his statements immune to criticism or dismissal by other respected Iranologists, nor does it mean Markwart is "fabricating the truth". |
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: As for the jpg files you linked, the first one of "Pahlavi Text", is a cropped screenshot of a single page. Post a link to the book itself, to see who the author references for that translation. If it's Markwart, then the same refutation above applies to this one/ |
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: The second set of jpg files of the page of Daryaee's book, literally says what I have posted above, including the explanation of the translation being "Arabian Wall". It is literally the exact same as the English translation of that page posted above, and in the archive link here [https://archive.org/details/ShahrestanihaIEransahr/page/n53]. -- [[User:Qahramani44|Qahramani44]] ([[User talk:Qahramani44|talk]]) 04:59, 15 March 2019 (UTC) |
Revision as of 03:59, 15 March 2019
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Persian name of the Gulf
Native Persian word for "gulf" is 'var' not the manufactured "shakhab". The Sasanian geographical codex, the Shahristanha-yi Eranshahr, records the name as Var-i Pars
Semi-protected edit request on 8 June 2017
2.50.39.90 (talk) 08:22, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
This is not the right name of this part of the gulf, please edit it to Arabian Gulf with reference to the history of the region this was always Arabian Gulf and the Southern coast was Arabian territory and now its part of Iran.
We request to the author to respect the history rather than change the facts with biased views.
Thank you
- Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the
{{edit semi-protected}}
template. Izno (talk) 12:22, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
What do you know about history? Remember that most of Arab countries were parts of Iran. These countries were separated from us. So everyone can understand that you want to steal something as always. USA2009AJ (talk) 10:31, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 16 October 2017
Persian Gulf has been Persian gulf for centuries and no one knows it as Arabian gulf, please remove the second part Monasadati (talk) 00:22, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
- Not done: The current text is the end result of large amounts of discussion and consensus-building on this talk page. It is very unwise to change it for one person's request. If you wish to review those decisions, you can read further in the archives. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 01:01, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 4 March 2018
37.32.117.7 (talk) 06:42, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
خلیج همیشگی فارس
- Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. DRAGON BOOSTER ★ 11:49, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
Persian Gulf for ever ♥️ USA2009AJ (talk) 10:34, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
File nominated for deletion on commons
The file c:File:Downtown Burj Dubai and Business Bay, seen from Safa Park.jpg used in this article has been nominated for deletion but was kept
Message automatically deposited by a robot - -Harideepan (talk) 09:10, 9 April 2018 (UTC).
A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 10:38, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request
In April 2017, two edits were made by Ahakim95 (talk · contribs) which added the words "(in Iran this is called "Arvand Rood", where "Rood" means "river")". This is clearly in the wrong place because it is referring to the Shatt-al-Arab river, rather than the country of Saudi Arabia. Please move these words up by one paragraph to where it says the name of the river. 90.197.140.22 (talk) 18:44, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
Arabic language
wikaviani Arabs dont use the term or write خليج فارسي to refer to this gulf. Why add the Arabic name of the internationally known name? I'm not here to fight on whats the correct name of this place or push POVs. Use the correct Arabic terminology. It is already included "known to some Arab countries as خليج العربي" in the lead. writing the Persian name in Arabic makes no sense. Sounds like The lady doth protest too much, methinks Wikiemirati (talk) 05:38, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
- WP:COMMONNAME helps redirect users to more commonly known names. The Arabic writing of Persian gulf is not as commonly used "خليج الفارسي". This is an accessibility issue, not a POV issue. Whats your reasoning? Wikiemirati (talk) 05:44, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
- Reading through the talk page archive, I understand that this is a very sensitive issue for Iranians who may perceive the addition of the Arabic name as challenging the Persian name due to historical naming issue. Honestly, going through all those pages undoubtedly gave me a headache. It seems that its almost teetering on an offensive side for certain groups to include the two names as any other disputed territory article in Wikipedia and my change, as well as million other person who heard the other name who may stumble apon this page and think "oh but its also call this why inst it here" will proceed to get reverted. Sounds like gazillion consensus existed, sometimes with including the Arabic name, sometimes without. As no one actually sat down and weighted in arguments this will probably continue to be an issue. Regardless, I stand with my point that, if you want to use the Arabic language' in this article then proceed with writing the correct known, Arabic naming, otherwise just remove the Arabic title. Regards. Wikiemirati (talk) 06:27, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
- Common name in English matters. Third paragraph has already mentioned your concern:
- The body of water is historically and internationally known as the "Persian Gulf".[2][3][4] Some Arab governments refer to it as the "Arabian Gulf" (Arabic: الخليج العربي, translit. Al-Khalīj al-ˁArabī) or "The Gulf",[5] but neither term is recognized internationally. The name "Gulf of Iran (Persian Gulf)" is used by the International Hydrographic Organization.[6]
- And, Egyptian Arabic Wikipedia uses الخليج الفارسى. So what? But since the Arabic variant added in this revision[1] without any edit summary or explanation, I'll remove it. --Wario-Man (talk) 15:58, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
- Common is common and helps the average wiki reader redirect to the page. I already mentioned above that I understand your concern due to the sensitivity of the topic and I am willing to not add the Arabic variant in the lead. However, don't add an uncommon Arabic translation in the lead to show etymology. This serves no purpose and is against wiki's manual of style as per MOS:FORLANG. Regards. Wikiemirati (talk) 16:11, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
- Edits like replacing "Qeshm island belongs to Iran" with "administred by Iran" or replacing "some Arab countries refer to it as the Arabian Gulf" with "the Arab world refers to it as the Arabian Gulf" sound like POV editing and have been reverted. Cheers.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 17:04, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
- just FYI, you can assume good faith and revert it with your reasoning without reverting the poor copy editing that was in the previous versions. Regards. Wikiemirati (talk) 18:47, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
- Edits like replacing "Qeshm island belongs to Iran" with "administred by Iran" or replacing "some Arab countries refer to it as the Arabian Gulf" with "the Arab world refers to it as the Arabian Gulf" sound like POV editing and have been reverted. Cheers.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 17:04, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
- @Wikiemirati: The fact is that i don't think that the previous stable version was "poor", that, again is only your POV and is far away from any consensus. You've already been reverted by two different users, therefore, i would suggest you to drop the stick. Wish you a great rest of your day.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 18:56, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
- BTW, thanks for the removal of the Arabic name which has been added months ago with no legit reason. I was about to remove it, but you were faster. Cheers.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 19:01, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
I have already agreed to your concerns. I understand how changing "Arab government to Arab world" and "Qeshm island belonging to Iran" to "Qeshm island administered by Iran" may get on your nerve and call me a POV pusher. Here, let me show you what I mean that you could have reverted without reverting valid edits:
Almost no species in the Persian Gulf is spared from the real estate development of UAE and Oman, including the hawksbill turtle, greater flamingo, and booted warbler, mainly due to destruction of the mangrove habitats to make way for towers, hotels, and luxury resorts.
First sentence is clearly user-generated as the source mentioned ("hawksbill turtle, greater flamingo, and booted warbler") as mentioned in the next sentence, and kingfisher only, which I added but you removed. Source does not state "Almost no species spared" when I checked and amounts to POV pushing, which you're against according to your comment.
In recent years, there has also been addition of artificial islands, often created by Arab states such as UAE for commercial reasons or as tourist resorts.
No other Arab state created artificial islands except UAE, which I clarified, sourcing The World Islands. You have removed this item too.
The Persian Gulf is home to many small islands. Bahrain, an island in the Persian Gulf, is itself a Persian Gulf Arab state.
You have removed my change which was a more concise version "The Persian Gulf is home to many islands such as Bahrain, an Arab state".
WP:Copyedit is: making the article clear, correct, concise, comprehensible, and consistent. Now, since you and other sensitive people are watching this page I would like to remind you to assume good faith, before reverting any edit you feel like a POV push. All the best. Wikiemirati (talk) 19:26, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
- "I have already agreed to your concerns. I understand how changing "Arab government to Arab world" and "Qeshm island belonging to Iran" to "Qeshm island administered by Iran" may get on your nerve" : Easy man, you did not get on my nerve at all, your changes were POV pushing (you confessed that yourself) and i reverted them, nothing less, nothing more. My turn to remind you that Wikipedia goes with what reliable sources state, not users' personal opinions.
- The rest of your changes are fine for me, if i did not edit the article that way, it's just because i'm far from being a birds/turtles' expert like you.
- As to your last comment about assuming good faith and me or Wario-Man being "sensitive", let me remind you again that my reverts have nothing to do with not assuming good faith or being sensitive (which i'm not at all ...), but with verifiability on this encyclopedia. I expected an experienced editor like you to be aware of such rules. Cheers.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 22:55, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
- "if i did not edit the article that way, it's just because i'm far from being a birds/turtles' expert like you." Sounds like WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT since you proceeded to revert the edits in that section. Reverting valid edits makes you look like using discredit tactics manifested by calling me "POV pushing". Assuming good faith, I suspect this was not your intention. However, my remark is to remind you to be cautious. If you see a particular editorial bias point it out, don't delete the entire user's contribution. You reverted my initial edits on basis of POV, and I understood your concern and did not engage in an edit war. Yet, you proceeded to tell me to "drop the stick" when I mentioned the reverted copyediting which really makes you sound like eliminating any future discussion. Wikiemirati (talk) 00:49, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
- As i said above, your other edits (about the islands, the birds and turtles) are fine for me and for the community, as you can see, nobody reverted them. My concerns were about you rewording the parts of the article i mentioned above with no sources and no consensus for that. As to your other edits (about the islands, the birds and turtles), if i reverted them then this only means that i was mistaken (not the first time and probably not the last time either). Now, i think we're done here. Cheers.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 01:07, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
sea passage disputes
I can't believe there's nothing here about the dispute over passage through the seas here -- it's something that really should be included. Dismalscholar (talk) 02:46, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
Arabian Gulf
Arabian Gulf in Sasanian Middle Persian texts
I request from editors to add this Inforamtion to the article
One of the oldest documented refrence to Gulf may be the one mentioned in Middle Persian text on geography "Šahrestānīhā ī Ērānšahr" (literally "The Provincial Capitals of Iran"), which is a source of historical records concerning names of the Sasanian kings as the builder of the various cities, It is in this Persian document that sasanias make the unique reference to gulf as "Daryay Taziyan" (In Persian : دریای تازیان) which literally means "Arabian Gulf or The Gulf of The Arabs"[1][2] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ted hamiltun (talk • contribs) 00:20, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
- Just NO. Because Citation #1 is not an expert source for history because both GARY G. SICK and LAWRENCE G. POTTER are not historian:
- GARY G. SICK is Executive Director of the Gulf/2000 Project at Columbia University, where he is also Adjunct Professor of International Affairs. He formerly served on the U.S. National Security Council as the principal White House aide for Persian Gulf Affairs from 1976 to 1981. LAWRENCE G. POTTER is Deputy Director of Gulf/2000 and Adjunct Assistant Professor of International Affairs at Columbia University.[2]
- Citation #2 could be reliable if you provide page number and quote of Touraj Daryaee's work. --Wario-Man (talk) 16:07, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
- I for one couldn't find it on the second source [3]. Looks like pure fabrication by him, and even that he can't do properly. "Taziyan" is a New Persian term (the Sahrestaniha I Eransahr has all the names in Middle Persian - so in Middle Persian it would be "tazigan"), and "daryay" looks like a poor attempt to spell "darya(-e)" (which is also a New Persian term, dunno how much it differs from the Middle Persian version though, perhaps "draya(-i)"?). Not to mention one of his earlier diffs included more of his personal opinion (in broken English that is); "How ever the oldest documented refrence to Gulf may be the one mentioned in" [4]. --HistoryofIran (talk) 16:24, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
- Sounds like a WP:NOTHERE case as I said it here.[5] But let's wait and see what he provides after the release of block. --Wario-Man (talk) 16:49, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
- I for one couldn't find it on the second source [3]. Looks like pure fabrication by him, and even that he can't do properly. "Taziyan" is a New Persian term (the Sahrestaniha I Eransahr has all the names in Middle Persian - so in Middle Persian it would be "tazigan"), and "daryay" looks like a poor attempt to spell "darya(-e)" (which is also a New Persian term, dunno how much it differs from the Middle Persian version though, perhaps "draya(-i)"?). Not to mention one of his earlier diffs included more of his personal opinion (in broken English that is); "How ever the oldest documented refrence to Gulf may be the one mentioned in" [4]. --HistoryofIran (talk) 16:24, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
"Refs"
- ^ Security in the Persian Gulf: Origins, Obstacles, and the Search for Consensus, By G. Sick, L. Potter, Palgrave Macmillan US, 2002, Page 81: http://uupload.ir/files/a71t_negar_11032019_012004.png
- ^ Sahrestaniha I Eransahr: A Middle Persian Text on Late Antique Geography, Epic, and History, By Touraj Daryaee
@HistoryofIran: First To the "Historyofiran'"' who accuses me to fabricat Information How It's fabricated ( when It's mentioned in source (1) That Sasanian called the Gulf Gulf of Arabs (!?) How can I fabricate this fact (lol), You may wanna Report GARY G. SICK and LAWRENCE G. POTTER for POV Pushing ! Second The book translated from Middle Persian ie Pahlavi to Modern Persian so It's obvious that you see Modern Terms like "Taziyan" (Arabs) Instead of Pahlavi "Tazigan" , The Book even translated and Published in Iran with exact Term Daryaye Tazian (Gulf of Arabs), (Screen shot provided) maybe The Persian authors are fabricating historical texts too!? Screen shot of the Persian Translation: see term درياي تازيان : Gulf of Arab http://uupload.ir/files/1hk5_44444444444444444444444444444.jpg
@Wario-Man: "First" Fare enough, the two gentelmen GARY G. SICK and LAWRENCE G. POTTER are not historian but they are quoting from a Historian which is expert in Iranian studies , If you see the page attached in ref (1) they cited a reference for their statement which is the book " Eranshahr" by Josef Markwart the German historian who was an expert in old Persian language and Iranian studies, enough says about him that the Encyclopædia Iranica wrote that: "His books are full of profound and nearly inexhaustible erudition, revealing that their author was a learned historian, philologist, geographer, and ethnologist." [1] The encyclopedia cited his 1901 book Ērānšahr as "still an authoritative work and probably his most important"."[1] Link to his book : https://archive.org/details/Eranshahr/page/n5
"Second" This is the screen shot from page 167 of PhD. Touraj Daryaee the Iranian scholar's book Translted in Persian, mentioning دریای تازیان : "Gulf of Arabs" This book published in Iran and this is Its full Information : Name : ناگفته های امپراطوری ساسانی "The Untold Aspects of Sassanian Empire" Translate by : Ahang Haghani and Mahmoud Fazeli Birjandi Publication: Tehran , Parse Publication Page : 167 Screen shot of the page : http://uupload.ir/files/xjj0_pic20190311194725.jpg "And last word is a question, I don't know how a document from one of earliest Persian empires doesn't count "old" to you , you request a source even for this obiouvs fact that this document from Sassanian era considers "Old" but you don't need a source for a phrase which is not mentioned in cited Refrence in another page (lol) anyways you can change the term "'Old" to what ever you like but this peace of information should add to this article and I'm reporting this double standard of engaging different topics to wiki Adminstartion anyways" Ted hamiltun (talk) 14:15, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
- Here is the direct link to Touraj Daryaee's book regarding the so-called "Darya-e Tazigan" [6], the text is as shown:
- -War I tazlgan; “Wall / Fortress of the Arabs”
- Markwart translates it as the “lake of the Arabs” (Markwart 1932; 14)
- "which he thought stood for the Persian Gulf. From the early Islamic pe-
- riod the name of this gulf was known as (Arabic) Bah ' Faris or Xalij
- Paris and by the later Europeans of the sixteenth century as Sino Persico
- or Sinus Persicus (Bosworth 1997; 84-89). Thus it is surprising that such
- a well known name for this boundary of water would be the “Arab Gulf’
- (During the end of the Qajar Period and the time of Reza Shah the British
- for the first time called this body of water the Arabian Gulf, and it be-
- came a term used from the 1960’s as part of Arab nationalist activities).
- Nyberg had seen this discrepancy and stated that war stood for “wall,”
- “enclosure,” or “fortress” (Nyberg 1959; 316-326). One can suggest that
- war was part of the Sasanian wall defense system (Frye 1979; in 11 :
- Azamoush 1374; 3-15), here standing for the Khandaq i Sabuhr (Mo-
- rony 1982; 28). This meaning for war can also be found in Vedic void,
- Avestan var-; Khotanese vara-, WaxT wirg (Bailey 1954; 26-28). In the
- Sasanian period (Avestan) Puitika /(Middle Persian) Piidig which is
- mentioned in the Widewdad (V.19) was equated with the Persian Gulf
- (Bahar 1375; 142-143 : BehzadI 1368; 244).
- As you can see he explicitly rejects the translation "War-i Tazigan" as "Gulf of the Arabs", and instead translates it to "Wall/Fortress of the Arabs" (referencing the series of fortifications the Sassanids built on the south side of the Persian Gulf). He cites numerous other scholars (Nyberg, Morony, Frye, Bailey) to support his argument.
- And as for the picture you have linked of the Persian translation, you can see on the bottom right of that exact picture [7] (that has been cropped with low resolution) the following phrase: "بر دیوار تازیان بگمارده", which means "to mean the Arabian Wall". Which is again exactly the translation I have posted above. So seriously, who are you trying to fool with this? -- Qahramani44 (talk) 04:54, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- @Wario-Man: & @Wikaviani: Can we report him for a indef block him already? He keeps fabricating stuff that suits his pov-pushing agenda, it's actually sad. --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:39, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
How can I try too fool any body when It mentioned in source 1 Sassanian Called the Gulf "Gulf of Arabs" you said it your self "Markwart translates it as the lake of the Arabs" Is Markwart the well know iranologist was fabricating the truth, hah!
And for the Petsian translations these are the High resolution screen shots from THE PAHALAVI TEXT, JAMASAP G : http://uupload.ir/files/yi2c_333333333333333333333333333_(1).jpg http://uupload.ir/files/ois_44444444444444444444444444444.jpg
Toujad daryaree, Untold Aspect th Sasanian empire : http://uupload.ir/files/2y0d_1111111111111111111111111111.jpg http://uupload.ir/files/jwmx_22222222222222222222222222222.jpg
Ted hamiltun (talk) 14:46, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
- >>It mentioned in source 1 Sassanian Called the Gulf "Gulf of Arabs" you said it your self, Is Markwart the well know iranologist was fabricating the truth, hah!
- What is mentioned in the source (both from Daryaee and Markwart) is that the Sassanids referred to an entity called "War-i Tazigan". Markwart translated "War" to Gulf and claimed it meant "Arabian Gulf", Daryaee disputes this and cites Henrik Nyberg and Richard Frye (two well known Iranologists), and a few other scholars (Bailey, Bahar, Behzadi) to show that "War" means "Wall" in Middle Persian, and referred to the Sassanid fortification system on the Arabian Peninsula. Markwart being a respected Iranologist doesn't make his statements immune to criticism or dismissal by other respected Iranologists, nor does it mean Markwart is "fabricating the truth".
- As for the jpg files you linked, the first one of "Pahlavi Text", is a cropped screenshot of a single page. Post a link to the book itself, to see who the author references for that translation. If it's Markwart, then the same refutation above applies to this one/
- The second set of jpg files of the page of Daryaee's book, literally says what I have posted above, including the explanation of the translation being "Arabian Wall". It is literally the exact same as the English translation of that page posted above, and in the archive link here [8]. -- Qahramani44 (talk) 04:59, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
- ^ a b "MARKWART, JOSEF". iranicaonline.org.