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::Per what I stated above, we are defining pedophilia by stating the medical definition first. That is the authoritative/accurate definition of pedophilia; this is something you agree with, or at least have agreed with in the past; see [[Talk:Pedophilia/Archive 15#Consensus: General use before authoritative use?]]. Your change has not removed the medical definition coming first; it has removed the context that goes with that definition, which is "As a medical diagnosis," and placed it second. Per WP:LEADSENTENCE, we should give that context as early as possible. The layperson (common use) definition of pedophilia is not first, nor should it come first, because laypeople generally define pedophilia as adult sexual attraction to any [[Minor (law)|minor]] (any person under 18)...as the lead and lower body of the article notes. The layperson (common use) definition comes after the medical definitions, as it should. Again, your first sentence does not note that pedophilia is a mental disorder, yet speaks of "diagnostic criteria" and "disorder," which makes it sloppy. Like I stated, it also does not note that pedophilia is a late adolescent/adult sexual attraction. |
::Per what I stated above, we are defining pedophilia by stating the medical definition first. That is the authoritative/accurate definition of pedophilia; this is something you agree with, or at least have agreed with in the past; see [[Talk:Pedophilia/Archive 15#Consensus: General use before authoritative use?]]. Your change has not removed the medical definition coming first; it has removed the context that goes with that definition, which is "As a medical diagnosis," and placed it second. Per WP:LEADSENTENCE, we should give that context as early as possible. The layperson (common use) definition of pedophilia is not first, nor should it come first, because laypeople generally define pedophilia as adult sexual attraction to any [[Minor (law)|minor]] (any person under 18)...as the lead and lower body of the article notes. The layperson (common use) definition comes after the medical definitions, as it should. Again, your first sentence does not note that pedophilia is a mental disorder, yet speaks of "diagnostic criteria" and "disorder," which makes it sloppy. Like I stated, it also does not note that pedophilia is a late adolescent/adult sexual attraction. |
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::As a compromise, I suggest we go back to even older wording for the first sentence: "'''Pedophilia''' or '''paedophilia''' is a psychiatric disorder in which an adult or older adolescent experiences a primary or exclusive sexual attraction to prepubescent children." Or perhaps "late adolescent" in place of "older adolescent," though [[User:RJR3333|RJR3333]] (who is now indefinitely blocked) [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pedophilia&diff=499373862&oldid=499249680 replaced "late |
::As a compromise, I suggest we go back to even older wording for the first sentence: "'''Pedophilia''' or '''paedophilia''' is a psychiatric disorder in which an adult or older adolescent experiences a primary or exclusive sexual attraction to prepubescent children." Or perhaps "late adolescent" in place of "older adolescent," though [[User:RJR3333|RJR3333]] (who is now indefinitely blocked) [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pedophilia&diff=499373862&oldid=499249680 replaced "late adolescents" with "older adolescents" for one version of the first sentence.] It might also be good to keep the "generally age 11 years or younger, though specific diagnostic criteria for the disorder extends the cut-off point for prepubescence to age 13" text as a part of the first sentence (though that's kind of run-on sentence territory if not placed in parentheses), or it can be added to the "As a medical diagnosis" sentence that currently comes second. [[User:Flyer22|Flyer22]] ([[User talk:Flyer22|talk]]) 18:23, 10 January 2014 (UTC) |
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Number of pedophiles among child molesters
I noticed, that the number of pedophilic offenders in Hall & Hall study is possibly misquoted. There are two citations in the study, one is Abel GG, Harlow N. The Abel and Harlow child molestation prevention study. Hall & Hall study claims 88 % of offenders are pedophiles, but it the Abel study, the number is related to number of victims molested by pedophiles. The number of pedophilic offenders is about 65 % based on the Abel study.
Does anyone have more resources? We have one study, that says 7 % identified themselves as exclusive and one study, that say 88 % (or 65 %?) of offenders are pedophiles, but I found for example claim of Dr. Hubert Van Gijseghem: "For instance, it is a fact that real pedophiles account for only 20% of sexual abusers." http://www.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?DocId=4959361&Language=E&Mode=1 I've also seen somewhere a resource claiming it's about 50 %, but I don't remember which one and only the abstract of the cited study was freely available, which didn't contain such claim. But the numbers I've found differs significantly, so I don't think one study is enough here.
Also I think it would be good to add a note what definition of pedophilia is used, the numbers can differ based on the definition used. Lunruj (talk) 16:11, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
- Similar comments were brought up at the Child sexual abuse talk page. See Talk:Child sexual abuse/Archive 8#Error in Mayo Clinic article, pedophiles account for 65% of child molesters, not 88% and Talk:Child sexual abuse/Archive 8#Personal opinion about the Mayo Clinic reference and some comments. As for definitions, we can if the sources note what their definitions are. But scholarly sources on the topic of pedophilia are usually speaking of prepubescent children, whether they define pedophilia as an exclusive or primary sexual attraction to them or not. Flyer22 (talk) 16:28, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
- It seems that more people agree, that there's a misquotation in the Mayo Clinic report. So I think it should be either replaced with the number in the original study and changing the source to the original study or removed. But I can't edit semi-protected arcticles. Lunruj (talk) 20:41, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
You are still wrong here. Reports tend to define "children" at the start. In the Mayo report they define children as "under 13". So the report is about pedophiles and molestation of pre-pubescent children. As in pedophilic activity.
So 65%/88% (not sure which one it is in the report) of sexual abuse of pre pubescent children is done by pedophiles. It's not data for all child abuse
Cjmooney9 (talk) 14:10, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
- Like I just stated in the media/common use section below, "under 13" does not automatically equate to "prepubescent," especially with regard to girls (most girls are pubescent before age 13, usually showing breast development). Furthermore, the aforementioned past discussions about the Mayo Clinic source clearly show problems with that source. Flyer22 (talk) 14:29, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
Sorry, I agree. But as in my below point, "child abuse" refers to sexual activity with anyone under the age of 18 in the US. And 16 in Europe. Any study of children under 13 is not a study of child abuse. It's a study of very particular child abusers. As stated (and I will pull up the stats - sorry, I'm a bit busy at the minute). Most child abuse is against teenagers, in an opportunistic way.
Cjmooney9 (talk) 11:27, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
- We should keep this discussion in one spot instead of replying in two different spots. But, in part, I stated below: First, we are talking about child sexual abuse, so it's best that you make that clear by stating exactly that and not "child abuse." Secondly, like we both stated, when considering to diagnose a person with pedophilia, the research concerns prepubescent children (usually anyway); this is because researchers generally know that sexual attraction to a 17-year-old, for example, is not pedophilia; furthermore, the terms child sexual abuse and child molestation most commonly refer to prepubescent children, and child sexual abuse (child molestation) is generally a more serious crime than statutory rape (which usually concerns clearly pubescent or post-pubescent minors). Flyer22 (talk) 12:34, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
media/common use
The common/media (use of the term) paragraph at the beginning, belongs in the misuse (of the clinical term) section. You're just repeating yourself. Also, putting it at the start, and outside the right (misuse of clinical terminology) section, gives it some sort of factual relevance - when there is no factual relevance. It's just the misuse/incorrect use of a clinical term.
Please be careful with this. Many people with Anxiety disorders and OCD visit pages like this, to research these things (as part of their Obsessive/compulsion rituals). For such reasons, medical/clinical articles need to be clinically accurate.
Cjmooney9 (talk) 13:51, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
- You are violating WP:Consensus and WP:Lead with your repeated reverts:[1][2][3][4]. That paragraph has been placed third in the lead, not at the beginning. And like I've stated to you in my reverts of your edits, this article (topic in general) is not only a medical topic. The lead is supposed to sufficiently summarize the most prominent/controversial parts of the article, per WP:Lead. That paragraph is not only a summary of that section you put it in. It's a summary of different parts of the article. It's summarizing the fact that, in common usage, pedophilia often means any sexual interest in children or the act of child sexual abuse, the fact that "[t]his common use application also extends to the sexual interest in and sexual contact with pubescent or post-pubescent minors," and the fact that "[r]esearchers recommend that these imprecise uses be avoided because although people who commit child sexual abuse commonly exhibit the disorder, some offenders do not meet the clinical diagnosis standards for pedophilia and these standards pertain to prepubescents. Additionally, not all pedophiles actually commit such abuse." Those are important details that should be in the lead, all of it. That paragraph is tackling the topic of medical accuracy, which you are trying to deprive readers of. It is not misinforming readers, but informing them/clearing up their misconceptions. Thanks to your edit, if it were to stay (it won't), a lot of them will keep on using the term inaccurately, since (according to statistics gathered by Wikipedia), most of our readers don't read past the lead. Yes, a lot of our articles tackle misconceptions in the lead, especially if those misconceptions are as prominent as the misuse of the term pedophilia. But this is not simply about tackling misconceptions, as I've already pointed out. Your edit also duplicates information in the section you put it. As you are clearly a newbie (meaning your sporadic editing, not the fact that you've been editing Wikipedia as Cjmooney9 since 2010) who does not understand Wikipedia's core policies and guidelines, I suggest you read Wikipedia: Policies and guidelines, and learn to follow the Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle essay. Your WP:Edit warring this important material out of the lead is most unfortunate. And if you continue to edit war it out of the lead (which I've stated because someone else will revert you), that will eventually lead to you being blocked. Flyer22 (talk) 14:24, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
Thank you for the message. I am happy to discuss.
Firstly, I don't see any consensus on here. In fact it doesn't seem to have been discussed at all.
Secondly, I agree that this is not only a medical topic. But is a primarily clinical article. The subject does also appears as part of discussion in popular culture. But if you wish to discuss the area of media inaccuracy and misuse of the term, then please put it under a section named thus. Or create an article about it. You've decided to put the entire section, in the introduction, of a primarily clinical article. I have no idea why. This gives the implication that this opinion is also clinical. It's not. And unless either the point is clearly made within the paragraph, or it appears under it's own section, it remains ambiguous.
Thirdly, I don't think the paragraph is that clear at all. There's far too little clinical knowledge displayed here. And it's very ambiguous.
Fourthly, I did not create a misuse section. The section already existed in the article. That is my entire point. You are attempting to have the entire misuse/inaccuracy section, in the introduction. Making up more than 50% of the introduction in fact. And then it's being repeated again in the correct section. The subject should be approached in the correct section.
A small section about misuse of the term in the introduction is fine. However, you seem convinced that 50% of the entire introduction of a (primarily) clinical article, should refer to this. Again, it's a primarily clinical article.
Cjmooney9 (talk) 17:04, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
- Cjmooney9, you don't see discussion because it has been archived long ago after said discussions were concluded. There are pages and pages about this matter that have come and gone (see archive links at the top of this page). Second, the misuse paragraph is 1/5 the lead, not half.
- I happen to be quite familiar with patients who have the OCD subtype where they obsess about having deviant sexualities (it's called Primarily Obsessional OCD) but I am not finding it a plausible concern, nor a notably large enough population to accommodate, that we would need to remove this material from the lead completely. Indeed I fail to see why this section would affect such a person. The one matter I will give you is that the paragraph in question should more forcefully express how wrong the popular usage is, in the way Schizophrenia is often confounded with dissociative identity disorder, which it most certainly is not. Legitimus (talk) 17:56, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
- Cjmooney9, you can check the archives for consensus about the lead; the lead has been thoroughly worked out, and what was there prior to your removal was there for the reasons I noted above. Though consensus can change, it has not changed on this. Your sloppy, damaging edit should be reverted for the reasons I've already made clear. The entire misuse section is not in the lead. Again, read what I stated above about that paragraph summarizing parts of the article; it is not only summarizing that section. If you read the article, you should see that. That paragraph is completely in compliance with WP:Lead. You call it repeating, when that is exactly what providing an adequate lead is about -- summarizing what is stated lower in the article. It is not a word-for-word repeat; it's a summary, just like the parts you chose not to remove or move are summaries. Per WP:Content fork, we will not be creating a separate article just to go over those aspects. Those aspects are not presented ambiguously; the paragraph makes perfectly clear that what it is talking about is common use and misuse of the term pedophilia and that this is not how experts on the topic define pedophilia. It also talks about the very important fact that child molestation does not necessarily equate to pedophilia and that pedophilia does not necessarily equate to child molestation. There additionally is not "far too little clinical knowledge displayed here" in this article. What is in this article, which is also a social topic, among other topics (see the WP:WikiProject tags on the top of the talk page), is most (the significant majority) of the clinical knowledge known about pedophilia. And, as the third paragraph, and not even the biggest paragraph, what you moved certainly did not "[make] up more than 50% of the introduction." Before your removal, and after what you removed is restored, this is how the lead reads: The first two parts of the introduction go over the medical definitions. The third part goes over the common use definition/common misconceptions. The fourth part goes over what has been known about pedophilia and what is currently known about it; it essentially summarizes the topic as a whole. All very important paragraphs for the lead. I can only consider your take/response on this matter to be due to your inexperience with the way Wikipedia is supposed to work, and due to your inexperience with the emphasis that experts put on not misusing the term pedophilia and not necessarily confusing pedophilia with child molestation. Flyer22 (talk) 18:09, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
Hello all - firstly, please don't let my rather sloppy edit make everyone desperate to stick to the status quo. If something is odd and ambiguous, it's just odd and ambiguous. I've read it through, twice again, now, and I still don't follow it.
I do not have inexperience in clinical psychology. I'm probably considered an expert. And I still don't follow the paragraph!
And the problem I have is not the emphasis of that paedophilia is not child abuse (this is an important point), but the lack of emphasis that common/media use of the term paedophilia is not actual clinical, medical, scientific paedophila.
Reading the paragraph, it's large amounts of information, and quotes, about media common use, but all it actually says in response, to me, is that people who commit child offenses aren't always paedophiles. There's a tiny bit at the end with the disclaimer that "these standards pertain to prepubescents" but it's very hard to understand. And not clear at all.
I agree with the second comment. If you're going to talk about common use/media use, then please make it clear whose this opinion is, and that it's not clinical, scientific or medical. And make it clear how wrong it is, clinically.
Answering your question about POCD, it's about the 2nd most common form of OCD. Huge numbers of people are affected. They come to sites like this as part of their obsession/compulsion ritual. Reading about it (and realizing they're not)makes them feel better. It's imperative that what they do read, is accurate, and clear. I realize this is possibly seen as a niche, but I'd have thought the whole point of these articles is they're accurate and clear.
thanks Cjmooney9 (talk) 20:22, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
- I see that you want the paragraph tweaked. Okay, but would you at least defer to WP:Consensus and revert your edits until that text is tweaked (proposals worked out on this talk page)? I would be largely repeating myself if I further emphasized why that paragraph should be in the lead. Your alteration certainly should not remain while this discussion is going on. Remember that you've made the Misuse of terminology section significantly even more redundant. Because what you have altered is the WP:Consensus version, you are supposed to convince us of why that material should not be in the lead or should be significantly cut down. You have not convinced me of either. After having worked out this matter several times before, it's not surprising that you would not. But as Legitimus shares your point about further emphasizing the inaccuracy of the common use definition, I am slightly convinced to oblige you on this. In the meantime, do try to take the time to better understand the WP:Lead guideline. Flyer22 (talk) 21:00, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
- On second thought, I'm taking this article off my WP:Watchlist for now, and for the first time ever. I have too many other things, including stressful things with regard to Wikipedia, to have to worry about. The last thing I need is to have to worry about a matter that I've worked out for the umpteenth time. And I certainly don't have any time, or the patience, to guide another editor on any Wikipedia policy or guideline. Have a blast. I'll check in on this article at a later date. Flyer22 (talk) 00:41, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
Yes please learn how the rules of this wiki work first, Cjmooney9. If you ignore this and continue to just repeat yourself or edit-war, your account can be blocked from editing.
Now, as a show of good faith, let me offer a tweak. Here is what I propose: In popular usage, the word "pedophilia" is often incorrectly used to mean any sexual interest in children or the act of child sexual abuse.[1][2][3][4] For example, The American Heritage Stedman's Medical Dictionary states, "Pedophilia is the act or fantasy on the part of an adult of engaging in sexual activity with a child or children."[5] This common use sometimes even conflates the sexual interest in and sexual contact with pubescent or post-pubescent minors.[6][7] Researchers recommend that these imprecise uses be avoided because although people who commit child sexual abuse commonly exhibit the disorder,[2][8][9] some offenders do not meet the clinical diagnosis standards for pedophilia and these standards pertain to prepubescents.[6][10][11] -Legitimus (talk) 01:29, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
- I found it difficult to see exactly what Legitimus had changed in the proposal above, but by using a file diff viewer, I have been able to work it out. For the benefit of others, here are the proposed changes:
- First sentence, "In popular usage, pedophilia means any sexual interest in children or the act of child sexual abuse, often termed "pedophilic behavior"." changed to "In popular usage, the word "pedophilia" is often incorrectly used to mean any sexual interest in children or the act of child sexual abuse".
- "This common use application also extends to the sexual interest in and sexual contact with pubescent or post-pubescent minors." changed to "This common use sometimes even conflates the sexual interest in and sexual contact with pubescent or post-pubescent minors."
- The last sentence, "Additionally, not all pedophiles actually commit such abuse." removed.
- For my own part, I agree with (1): it provides clarity that this is an incorrect use of a word. Wikipedia articles are mostly about the subject matter encompassed by each article title, not the word or words used in the title, but in this case we are discussing a popular misuse of a technical term, so it is good to make that clear. I agree with (2) as well: I was unsure what was meant by a "common use application" – either use of the word, or application of the word, not both at once. I'm not sure we need "even" in the new version: we have said that this is a misuse, and "sometimes conflates" is enough, I think. I'm not sure what is wrong with the sentence in (3). Is this not the final part of the disjunction between the two uses (clinical and popular), and so worth mentioning? It could be reduced to ", and not all pedophiles actually commit such abuse." and tagged onto the preceeding sentence for less emphasis.
- For the larger point, I think that it is important, both in the lead and the body of this article, that we cover all significant aspects of this subject - clinical, social, psychological, popular. This is the top-level article on the topic. I'm not sure if there are any others yet, but per WP:SPLITOUT, if it were to get much larger, then aspects of the topic may end up in sub-articles. Even should that happen, it will still be important that this parent article covers all aspects of the topic. --Nigelj (talk) 15:38, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
- Nigelj glad you agree with most of these. Regarding (2) I am fine not using the word "even." Not necessary. Regarding (3) I actually was not sure why it is relevant to popular usage. The problem in popular usage is over-use of "pedophilia" to things it does not apply to, and the "some offenders do not meet the clinical diagnosis standards" sentence is supposed to dispel that. The remark that not all pedophiles commit abuse is dispelling a misconception that is never stated.Legitimus (talk) 17:36, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
- I thought that the common misconceptions inherent in the 'everyday' use of the term (which are trying to document and dispel here) are (a) all sexual abusers of children are pedophiles and (b) all pedophiles sexually abuse children, as well as (c) any sexual interest in people under 16 (or 18, or whatever) is pedophilia. --Nigelj (talk) 17:47, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
- (b) is a common misconception about pedophilia, but not a misuse of the term. Further, it is not mentioned as being a misconception in the first place in the lead. Actually I don't see a source stating it's even a common misconception (that is, that all medically diagnosed pedophiles abuse children).Legitimus (talk) 19:30, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
- I thought that the common misconceptions inherent in the 'everyday' use of the term (which are trying to document and dispel here) are (a) all sexual abusers of children are pedophiles and (b) all pedophiles sexually abuse children, as well as (c) any sexual interest in people under 16 (or 18, or whatever) is pedophilia. --Nigelj (talk) 17:47, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
- Nigelj glad you agree with most of these. Regarding (2) I am fine not using the word "even." Not necessary. Regarding (3) I actually was not sure why it is relevant to popular usage. The problem in popular usage is over-use of "pedophilia" to things it does not apply to, and the "some offenders do not meet the clinical diagnosis standards" sentence is supposed to dispel that. The remark that not all pedophiles commit abuse is dispelling a misconception that is never stated.Legitimus (talk) 17:36, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
Note: For documentation in this section, Widsith removed "incorrectly". Unlike Widsith, I would not state that most of those sources don't feel that their use of the term is incorrect; they simply don't know that it is incorrect, or, other times, don't care and want to use a term that the public is generally familiar with vs. an obscure but accurate term. And there's also the fact of sensationalism. Furthermore, no non-medical (non-psychology/psychiatric) source is an authority on pedophilia. As for the rest of Legitimus's text, it's obviously fine. However, I thought the same as Nigelj about the word "even" not being needed. And as for keeping or not keeping "Additionally, not all pedophiles actually commit such abuse.", I would have preferred that remain in the lead, and there is no better place for it than in the paragraph it was placed in. However, it's not discussed lower in the article (not in a significant or even minor way), and so it is not WP:LEAD-compliant. Flyer22 (talk) 21:21, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
Section break
I disagree with the point about the use of the word "incorrectly". If a person truly believed that water was a gas, as they knew little about science, it wouldn't mean they were correct or speaking about it correctly to their friends. It is incorrect.
Also, I felt the balance in one of the sentences was wrong so tweaked a few words.
Most clinical research shows that the majority of (total) child abuse is committed by none-pedophiles. A lot of the research you cite is studies into pre-pubescent child abuse - in which around 65% of perpetrators are pedophiles.
Cjmooney9 (talk) 09:40, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
- With regard to your balance edit, wrong again, and reverted again. I was going to state, "And you are going to edit war again, aren't you?" But while I was typing up this reply earlier the previous hour while busy with matters off Wikipedia, you predictably did. And perhaps just as predictably, I reverted you. It's made very clear by the sources in the Pedophilia article and in this section above that it's very often that the word pedophilia is "used to mean any sexual interest in children or the act of child sexual abuse." It is hardly a "sometimes" matter. And with regard to "[m]ost clinical research show[ing] that the majority of child [sexual] abuse is committed by none-pedophiles", read the Pedophilia article; the sources quite clearly differ on that matter, and that matter has been discussed before on this talk page; see Talk:Pedophilia/Archive 17#Confusion of Pedophilia and Child Molestation, Talk:Pedophilia/Archive 17#Prevalence rates, Talk:Child sexual abuse/Archive 8#Error in Mayo Clinic article, pedophiles account for 65% of child molesters, not 88% and Talk:Child sexual abuse/Archive 8#Personal opinion about the Mayo Clinic reference and some comments. We should not put "many" when the "clinical research" reports differently on that topic. Where are your sources (appropriate sources, mind you) that state that "Most clinical research shows that the majority of child [sexual] abuse is committed by none-pedophiles"? Note: I left out the "total" add-in to your post. Also, the lead text you changed was not debating whether or not they are technically pedophiles; it was simply noting that "some offenders do not meet the clinical diagnosis standards for pedophilia and these standards pertain to prepubescents." You added in to your comment above, "A lot of the research you cite is studies into pre-pubescent child abuse." Well, yeah, since pedophilia accurately concerns prepubescent children. Therefore, the appropriate action on your part should have been to change "although people who commit child sexual abuse" to "although people who have sexually abused prepubescent children" (or something like that), not to add-in "sometimes." This, re-adding "incorrectly," is not a compromise; everything you added in that edit is WP:Synthesis, which is against policy. It is also still edit warring. Flyer22 (talk) 12:13, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
I don't plan to edit war. But if I truly believe something is wrong, I should change it.
"Often" is meaningless in an encyclopedic article. I could say that "often pedophilia is not used to describe post pubescent children". In certain contexts (ie the media, newspapers)it is used with that definition. But the context was undefined. What you meant originally I think is that often, in some contexts, it's defined this way.
Most of the clinical research you have posted seems to back my point about the other change, having a quick look. As does most of the debate on the boards. For example The Mayo Clinic research, quoted above defines "children" as under 13 in the study. As in, it's a study of Pedophilic sexual molestation only. In which they found 88% were pedophiles. Many studies are like this - they say "children" but they also define what they mean by children. I believe this was originally used to verify that child molesters "were commonly pedophiles". Again, I can dig out some research, or perhaps someone else can comment, but I was under the impression that research shows that the majority of child molestation is opportunistic. Cjmooney9 (talk) 13:23, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
- Posting this as an example of one of the times you changed your "13:23, 27 December 2013 (UTC)" reply. I don't care if you plan to edit war or not. Edit warring is obviously always your initial response to someone rejecting your edit, judging by your contributions. You always seem to think that your edit is supposed to stay until WP:Consensus is to remove it; for some reason, you still think that, despite having been told above that that's not the way Wikipedia is supposed to work. And you have not proven that your edits are more accurate on this matter. You stated, "Most of the clinical research you have posted." What clinical research have I posted? How can it be called "most"? What the clinical research shows is that researchers are not generally sure whether or not most child molesters are pedophiles. Indeed, a lot of researchers don't believe that most people who sexually abuse prepubescent children are pedophiles. Go ahead; have more than "a quick look," including with regard to the discussions about the accuracy of the Mayo Clinic source (as recently as higher on this talk page, but then again, I see that you are now familiar with that section). And do look at/read what the Pedophilia article states on the prevalence subject. Because of all that, I haven't a clue as to what you are talking about on this matter. And the term often is not "meaningless in an encyclopedic article"; neither is commonly. If they were, they would not be needed in many of our WP:MED articles, something specifically stated in, or clearly supported by, the sources. They give appropriate context, just like you feel that the terms incorrectly and sometimes give appropriate context. However, you add such words without the correct context and against the WP:Synthesis policy. Either revert yourself...or give the correct context, like you are supposed to do. No, that is not what I meant with regard to the common use matter; I meant what I stated -- "it's very often that the word pedophilia is 'used to mean any sexual interest in children or the act of child sexual abuse.'" Besides being covered by many sources, it is quite easy to see that the general public has not a clue about how to correctly use the term pedophile or pedophilia. And "under 13" does not automatically equate to "prepubescent," especially with regard to girls (most girls are pubescent before age 13, usually showing breast development). Flyer22 (talk) 14:29, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for the reply. You're completely correct in saying that "under 13" isn't necessarily pre pubescent. What I mean is "child abuse" in the US refers to any sexual activity with a child up to the age of 18 years of age. And 16 years of age in Europe. So a study of 0-13 is not a study of child abuse. It's a study of very particular child abuse. I will pull up some research, but if you check any information sites on the subject, they have general stats, and most child abuse is by people who can not possibly be diagnosed as pedophiles. As it's usually against teenagers, in an opportunistic way. So when the article says it's common for pedophiles to be involved in child abuse cases, it's not an accurate choice of words. It's common for them to be involved in child abuse against pre-pubescent targets. But it's actually uncommon for general child abuse. A more neutral choice of words is necessary in my opinion.
As for "often", I just don't agree. It's often said that global warming is a hoax, in the media and by the public. That's the common use. I can verify this millions of times. But it's often said by people who don't know much about environmental science. At the same time, classic global warming theory is often used by people that do know a bit more. Some context is needed. I'm not saying it has to be one way or the other, but surely there can be some common ground.
Cjmooney9 (talk) 11:22, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
- Cjmooney9, I told you what should have been done about the child abuse part; I stated "the appropriate action on your part should have been to change 'although people who commit child sexual abuse' to 'although people who have sexually abused prepubescent children' (or something like that), not to add-in "sometimes." That stated, even though "sometimes" is likely WP:Synthesis, it's not problematic (or else some other Wikipedian who watches this article would have reverted you) and it may be more accurate...considering that, to reiterate, researchers are not generally sure about whether or not most child molesters are pedophiles. The use of "many" in place of "some" for "many offenders do not meet the clinical diagnosis standards" is still a bit concerning; this is because, not only is it likely not supported by the sources you have attributed it to (meaning that it is WP:Synthesis), a lot of people take "many" to mean "most" or may otherwise think that "many" in this case means that most people who sexually abuse prepubescent children aren't pedophiles; it is likely true that they are not, but, again, "researchers are not generally sure about whether or not most child molesters are pedophiles." It's difficult to come by statistics on pedophilia, for the reasons named in the "Talk:Pedophilia/Archive 17#Prevalence rates" discussion. And use of "incorrectly" is WP:Synthesis, unless supported by the sources you have attributed it to; I don't think it is supported by them.
- You stated "but if you check any information sites on the subject, they have general stats, and most child abuse is by people who can not possibly be diagnosed as pedophiles." First, we are talking about child sexual abuse, so it's best that you make that clear by stating exactly that and not "child abuse." Secondly, like we both stated, when considering to diagnose a person with pedophilia, the research concerns prepubescent children (usually anyway); this is because researchers generally know that sexual attraction to a 17-year-old, for example, is not pedophilia; furthermore, the terms child sexual abuse and child molestation most commonly refer to prepubescent children, and child sexual abuse (child molestation) is generally a more serious crime than statutory rape (which usually concerns clearly pubescent or post-pubescent minors). Lastly, the sites you speak of (general sites out there about child sexual abuse and/or pedophilia) generally do not count as WP:Reliable sources for medical content; what counts in that regard is Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (medicine) (WP:MEDRS-compliant sources). So all in all, I consider your abuse arguments with regard to research to be weak.
- As for "often", we'll have to agree to disagree, because, like I stated, the same can be said of other words. My main point on the "often" matter is that "often" is more accurate than stating "sometimes" for the line "In popular usage, the word pedophilia is often incorrectly used to mean any sexual interest in children or the act of child sexual abuse." Common ground, a good compromise on this matter, would be to use "commonly" in place of "often." Flyer22 (talk) 12:34, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
I agree with your point about changing it to "although people who have sexually abused prepubescent children are commonly pedophiles'"
However, you've changed argument a little bit.
"Many offenders do not meet the clinical diagnosis standards" was only added as the current version states, to paraphrase, that most child sex offenders are pedophiles. Most are in fact not. As discussed child sex abuse is defined, as either 0-18 or 0-16. With the majority of offenders offending against teenagers. Statutory rape basically. So I think the whole sentence needs to be re-worded to something like the above. The Child Abuse article, actually has it right already, with a good sentence on this, so maybe it can just be the same?
In regards to your second point, I agree with your general point about people commonly assuming child sex abuse refers to pre-pubescent child abuse, but officially it very much is 0-18 or 0-16. And it has it's own research. As I said, most papers define age ranges, so not to have these problems with the definition of "children". This is part of my argument -many people who read "child sex abuse" will assume it is actually anyone under the age of consent. The wikipedia article for child sex abuse says this as well. So it needs to be clearer what the article is actually referring to and consistent.
cheers
Cjmooney9 (talk) 13:53, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
- Cjmooney9, I'm not sure what you mean by "changed argument a little bit." The current version of the article does not state that most child sex offenders are pedophiles, either before or after your latest edits to the article. The reason it does not is already addressed by me above. And "commonly" did not imply "most." Either way, I don't understand your need to stress that we are speaking of prepubescent children. This is already very clear by the lead; it clearly defines what we mean by "pedophilia" and that the term is also used inaccurately. The only parts of this article that relate to people as old as 16 is when speaking of the fact that 16-year-olds can also be pedophiles and when relaying text in the In law section. The part you are referring to with regard to the Child sexual abuse article is not much different than what the lead of the Pedophilia article stated, and it is something that I tweaked months ago (meaning the line in the Child sexual abuse article). It uses the word some, just like this article used to, with regard to offenders not meeting the clinical diagnosis standards for pedophilia. However, it uses the word prepubescent as well, so I can see what you mean about wanting the Pedophilia article's lead to be similar. Still, once again, "when considering to diagnose a person with pedophilia, the research concerns prepubescent children (usually anyway); this is because researchers generally know that sexual attraction to a 17-year-old, for example, is not pedophilia"; this fact is why your need to stress that the sex offenders being considered are being considered with regard to prepubescent children makes little sense to me. Because the article clearly defines what pedophilia is in the medical sense, the article already makes clear that the sex offenders being considered with regard to child sexual abuse are being considered with regard to prepubescent children. We even state "and these standards pertain to prepubescents." So of course the offenders who are not sexually interested in prepubescent children do not meet the clinical diagnosis standards for pedophilia; of course we are excluding those offenders. It's because of that, that this change I made just minutes ago to the Child sexual abuse article is likely not necessary. That stated, I made this tweak that we have both agreed on for the Pedophilia article (the prepubescent mention). I didn't add back "commonly" because of the aforementioned debate concerning whether or not most offenders who have sexually abused prepubescent children are pedophiles. And I didn't change "many" back to "some" for "many child sexual abuse offenders do not meet the clinical diagnosis standards for pedophilia and these standards pertain to prepubescents." because, when taking into account the aforementioned "Pedophile or not a pedophile?" debate, as well as the fact that child sexual abuse cases can refer to sexual offenses committed by adults against pubescent and/or post-pubescent minors, "many" is more accurate and the rest of the line specifies the prepubescent focus.
- With regard to "people commonly assuming child sex abuse to pre-pubescent child [sexual] abuse"... No, I was not only referring to what people commonly think. I was more so referring to law; this is something that the Statutory rape article makes clear (though it currently needs to be better sourced). A 23-year-old man who has had sex with a 17-year-old girl who is under the age of consent, for example, usually will not be charged with "child rape" or "child sexual abuse"; sexual offenses against prepubescent children are treated far more seriously than an adult engaging in sex with a post-pubescent minor and therefore sexual offenses against prepubescent children are always labeled "child rape," "child sexual abuse" or "child molestation" (or something that quite clearly stresses that the minor is very much a child). That 23-year-old man would mostly likely be charged with statutory rape, though it would typically be called something different under the law. Whatever it is called, it typically would not be called "child rape," "child sexual abuse" or "child molestation" by the law; the general public would be more likely to call it such. And 0-18? For the vast majority of the world, including in the United States and United Kingdom, a person who is age 18 is not a child (but rather an adult), and many parts of the world define a 16 or 17-year-old as an adult. Flyer22 (talk) 17:25, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
Edit request on 7 October 2013
Please change "Another study, using structural MRI, shows that male pedophiles have a lower volume of white matter than a control group.[84] Functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) has shown that child molesters diagnosed with pedophilia have reduced activation of the hypothalamus as compared with non-pedophilic persons when viewing sexually arousing pictures of adults.[88] A 2008 functional neuroimaging study notes that central processing of sexual stimuli in heterosexual "paedophile forensic inpatients" may be altered by a disturbance in the prefrontal networks, which "may be associated with stimulus-controlled behaviours, such as sexual compulsive behaviours". The findings may also suggest "a dysfunction at the cognitive stage of sexual arousal processing".[89]" to " "In another study using structural MRI, no differences were observed on a particular male pedophile from control groups, but on a small sample group, a statistical group average of lower white matter was observed.[84] In contrast, in Germany, functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) has shown that a small sample of child molesters diagnosed with pedophilia have reduced activation of the hypothalamus as compared with non-pedophilic persons when viewing sexually arousing pictures of adults.[88] A 2008 functional neuroimaging study notes that central processing of sexual stimuli in heterosexual "paedophile forensic inpatients" may be altered by a disturbance in the prefrontal networks, which "may be associated with stimulus-controlled behaviours, such as sexual compulsive behaviours". The findings may also suggest "a dysfunction at the cognitive stage of sexual arousal processing".[89]"
Reason for change: No difference in white matter can be observed in one individual alone. It is a statistical average (reworked data) of a small sample of people compared to a small control group. Research bias (talk) 00:18, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
- As I say, I think it would be more appropriate for other editors than me to lead the discussion. I would offer, however, that the suggested edit unnecessarily relies on a single primary source. A new meta-analysis of all existing fMRI data (available here) provides a superior encapsulation, however.— James Cantor (talk) 01:12, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
- Not done: Have the discussions, reach a consensus with the other interested editors, then ask for the edit. Editors responding to the {{edit semi-protected}} template should never make edits which do not have either an implied consensus or an established, explicit consensus. (In practice, some number of the other interested editors will be auto-confirmed and they will be able to implement the agreed-upon changes.) Thanks, Celestra (talk) 01:03, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
Eyes, please?
As the sections above show, the single purpose account has not gained any support for the repeatedly suggested changes. However, an IP account has nonetheless just instituted those same edits at James Cantor. Rather than address the errors and POVs in those changes myself, I'd prefer that someone else take a look and provide whatever input appropriate. Thanks.— James Cantor (talk) 16:46, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
- Replied on Talk page, but with explanation about these edit requests as well since they are related.Legitimus (talk) 19:32, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
Eyes again, please?
This time at Virtuous pedophiles. An editor there has had difficulty establishing talkpage consensus for a series of mainpage edits. The editor previously AfD'd the article, but did not gain consensus for that either. At the failed AfD of the article, the editor expressed his opinion about the page as "a pro-pedophile rant," "not NPOV and I dont think, looking at the article, that we can make it NPOV." Despite the talkpage accusations against me from that editor, I have no COI about the group, other than I happen to respect what they are doing. Nonetheless, the page would benefit from input from folks other than me.— James Cantor (talk) 20:50, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
- What has this got to do with the pedophilia article, or are you just canvassing? And which editor are you referring to? ie which of the thousands who didnt afd the Virtuous Pedophile article? Strikinmg your knowingly false claims is not impressive. You apparently think you are above responding to the very real COI charges but this isnt the place to discuss your COI activities anyway, this si the place to discuss the pedophile article. If you want to canvas you should go to Wikipedia:WikiProject Pedophilia Article Watch, that, notn here, is the appropriate place. ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 00:21, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
Age limit of children
A pedophile for most people is someone attracted to children up to around 20 or 21. Boys are still children at 19, especially if they don't have facial hair. So puberty ends with full facial hair. 19 year old with no facial hair is pubescent or prepubescent. So-called ephebophiles are a subset of paedophiles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.154.252.81 (talk) 20:33, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- IP, none of what you stated is even remotely true. For example, most people think that sexual attraction, any attraction, to a 19, 20 or 21-year-old (all who are adults) is pedophilia? That is obviously false. As for facial hair, I made this statement today with regard to puberty and facial hair. And like I stated, "Continuing to physically mature does not equate to continuing to go through puberty. For example, many men don't start to grow facial hair until their early 20s; starting to grow facial hair at age 22 does not mean that the 22-year-old man is still going through puberty." Flyer22 (talk) 21:21, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- Paediophilia is conventionally (and NPOV) defined by the kegal rulings of age of consent.
- However, there is likely a sociological definition, but that opens a whole can of worms. But perhaps if there is literature we can use tht as definitionalLihaas (talk) 20:07, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
- The act of sexually abusing a child, which is related to but distinct from pedophilia, is defined by the legal rulings of age of consent/age of majority; I further addressed this in the #Broader scope section below. Flyer22 (talk) 21:43, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
Puberty is a relatively short period - around 3 years. Ephebophile means an attraction to someone who has finished puberty. You're referring to physical maturity, which for many people doesn't end until they're over 30.
Cjmooney9 (talk) 09:48, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
Edit suggestion regarding Treatment (not NPOV)
This phrase:
- "Although pedophilia has yet no cure"
is not NPOV as it implies that one will be found at some point. Perhaps the wording below would be better;
- "Although no cure has been found for pedophilia"
(192.0.204.205 (talk) 00:19, 21 November 2013 (UTC))
- Firstly Im not sure you need to add cure, period. It is a phenemenoa that is age-old and at various points in history what is regarded negatively today has been viewed not so unvafavourably. GHeck, evfen today you have child marriage in some places that is at least quasi-legal (and marriage means consummation)Lihaas (talk) 20:12, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
Note: Legitimus I already accepted the IP's request. Flyer22 (talk) 21:43, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
Broader scope
This article seems to predominantly focus on the phenomenon as pornographic (and its legal requisites) in peacetime. I think it needs a broader scope to tackle/represent issues of paedophilia elsewhere. By this I mean war rape (see that talk page for what I am working on). As defined by "under 18," it occurs in virtually every such conflict where there is war rape (and my current case study is Latiam). But in some conflicts its worse with children even much younger than merely the legal definition. At the same time boys are also victims. Similarly (and I dont know if this qualifies) but there is also child perpetrated rape/sexual violence.
Id also like to add that sexual violence is not only rape/penetration, according to the literature in academia. Would those other mechanisms (?) not count as paedophilia too?Lihaas (talk) 20:04, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
- Lihaas, I'm not entirely sure where you are coming from on this matter...either here or on my talk page; pedophilia is not every sexual attraction/sexual act between an adult and someone under the age of consent/age of majority; not only have we gone over this before extensively on this talk page (including at a point in time with you), the article quite clearly addresses this. If pedophilia were defined by the age of consent/age of majority, then that would mean that a person has a mental disorder/is a pedophile in one state or country but not in another; it would mean that sexual attraction to a post-pubescent 17-year-old is pedophilia; it would mean that an 18-year-old adult who has sex with a 17-year-old minor, for example, is a pedophile. That is not what pedophilia is, and this article should not misrepresent pedophilia as such.
- And as for this edit you made with regard to war rape, sexually abusing a child is not always about being sexually attracted to that child; this article addresses that. And it is especially true with regard to war rape, where rape is often used as a weapon instead of as a means to satisfy one's libido. Flyer22 (talk) 20:31, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
- Its late and Ill get to the first point later
- But actually war rape ALSO @"satisfies"...it is in the literature. war rape then DOES INCLUDE PaedophiliaLihaas (talk) 02:12, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
- Nope, there is nothing to discuss on this matter between us because after years since I last clarified to you what pedophilia is and is not, you continue to confuse what it is. Refrain from trying to discuss this with me any further. Go to the archives of this talk page and read what has been made clear about what pedophilia is and is not, or, hey, read this Wikipedia article. And comprehend it. I know what the literature on pedophilia is -- the actual literature on it (meaning scholars who study the subject); if you knew, you would not still be confusing the matter. Flyer22 (talk) 02:31, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
Redefining pedophilia as "sexual orientation"?
Without comments but with emphasys added, here is the transcript of the top half of page 698 of the "Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fifth Edition" (DSM-V) published by the American Psychiatric Association in Arlington, VA, 2013:
"The diagnostic criteria for PEDOPHILIC DISORDER are intended to apply both to individuals who freely disclose this paraphilia and to individuals who deny any sexual attraction to prepubertal children (generally age 13 years or younger), despite substantial objective evidence to the contrary. Examples of disclosing this paraphilia include candidly acknowledging an intense sexual interest in children and indicating that sexual interest in children is greater than or equal to sexual interest in physically mature individuals. If individuals also complain that their sexual attractions or preferences for children are causing psychosocial difficulties, they may be diagnosed with pedophilic disorder. HOWEVER, if they report an absence of feelings of guilt, shame, or anxiety about these impulses and are not functionally limited by their paraphilic impulses (according to self-report, objective assessment, or both), and their self-reported and legally recorded histories indicate that they have never acted on their impulses, then these individuals have a PEDOPHILIC SEXUAL ORIENTATION but not pedophilic disorder." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.247.171.150 (talk) 01:17, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
- See Talk:Pedophilia/Archive 17#Development and Sexual Orientation and Talk:Pedophilia/Archive 18#Edit to reflect the DSM-V changes?. Flyer22 (talk) 01:25, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
Etymological misapplication
The Greek root Anglicised as Phile does not cover sexual attraction or activity. The term was misapplied in the early and mid twentieth century. As Greek is a prescriptive language these errors cannot constitute valid applications.
The misapplied term paedofphile / Paedophilia needs to be removed from medical, scientific and legal use. If these disciplines wish to use words from other languages as definitive terms they need to have much greater respect for the historical context and idioms in which they were applied.
Until this travesty has been corrected, please can Wikipedia provide a disclaimer to the misapplication of the Greek root.
Science relies on pedantry for us to communicate with other scientist through time. This is why we are supposed to use dead prescriptive languages.
“You Keep Using That Word, I Do Not Think It Means What You Think It Means” from the Princess Bride, William Goldman
Robert J Price (talk) 19:43, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
- We already say "As pedophilia denotes sexual attraction, the term's Greek meaning is not employed by medical authorities" and that's plenty sufficient I think. Herostratus (talk) 23:08, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
Whether to keep the section Pedophilia#Distinguish from?
- Please discuss here whether to keep that new section. It was claimed "We don't include these type of sections in articles; see WP:LAYOUT; we also don't tell readers what is important to note.". But many men have been wrongly accused of paedophilia because of this sort of misunderstanding, and have suffered serious consequences thereby, as is known from newspaper reports. Wikipedia, ultimately, is an information source for the general public. There are "distinguish from" entries in many disambig pages. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 06:13, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
- Anthony Appleyard, with as long as you have been registered with Wikipedia, and considering that you are a Wikipedia administrator as well, it's difficult for me to believe that you do not know that this and this that I reverted you on is inappropriate text to be included in this article. It's just as difficult for me to believe that anyone has confused pedophilia with pediatrics. But either way, I suggest you become more familiar with Wikipedia policies and guidelines, such as the WP:NOTREPOSITORY policy. This article is not a disambiguation page, and Wikipedia disambiguation pages usually distinguish without stating "distinguish from"; after all, because those pages are disambiguation pages, meaning that they are meant to distinguish, there is no need to add "distinguish from." Flyer22 (talk) 07:26, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
- I also don't like this spelling variation edit you made, considering that I view it as lead clutter and considering the way that you added it is not the standard way such text is added to Wikipedia articles, but I'll worry about that at a later date (such as whether or not to put it in a footnote or regulate it to the Etymology and definitions section). Also note that with regard to reverting each other on your Distinguish from section, it was on you to follow Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle (WP:BRD) before it was on me to do so. Flyer22 (talk) 08:03, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
- This is an article, not a dab. Challenged new text is generally not forced in before a discussion. The purpose of an article is to provide reliably sourced and encyclopedic information—protecting people is not Wikipedia's role. Further, no amount of dictionary information tacked on this article is going to make the slightest difference to the claimed problems. The only way to make a possible encyclopedic entry on this would be to find a couple of good secondary sources that make the points claimed in the OP. Johnuniq (talk) 08:14, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
- "confused pedophilia with pediatrics" :: this confusion by uneducated people in the street who don't properly know what either word means, has happened and has been documented in reputable newspapers. People colloquially slang shorten "p(a)edophile" to "p(a)edo", and so uneducated people in the street guess wrong meanings for words whose spelling starts with "p(a)ed(o)-". OK, OK, sorry, I'll leave it. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 13:10, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
- I would like to see the documentation that such confusion occurs. The vast majority of such alleged incidents I investigated turned out to be jokes and cartoons, some of which evolved into urban legends. The only real incident was able to find was a British pediatrician (a woman, mind you) had "paedo" spray-painted on her front door by teenage miscreants. And even in that case the evidence seemed to hint that the miscreants were trying to be funny rather than genuinely believing she was a pedophile.Legitimus (talk) 14:02, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
- Anthony Appleyard, I've seen pedophilia/podophilia confusion before; see Talk:Pedophilia/Archive 17#Major Error. However, I have never witnessed a person confusing the words pedophilia and pediatrics or pedophile and pediatrician; the spellings are completely different, even when shortened to "pedo" and "pedi" (or "pedia") and the pronunciations are completely different. That is why I can't understand how anyone would confuse these two terms. Same goes for comparing the term podiatry with pedophilia, though that confusion is more reasonable than the pediatrics example. Flyer22 (talk) 14:31, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
- "were trying to be funny" :: if so, it was a joke in very bad taste and risking starting serious harassment against the victim. Currently here in England the word "paedophile/-ia" is very well known to the general public beyond the point of wearisomeness in the newspapers and the television news; not so the other words mentioned here. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 23:23, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
- I don't doubt that it's horribly misused and abused in the UK. Heck I remember watching Peep Show where some pre-teen hooligans harass Mitchell's character by calling him "paedo." But similar to the doctor's story, the hooligans do not actually believe he is attracted to children; they're merely saying it to embarrass and upset him because they dislike him. I've not seen any evidence that people genuinely mix up the words and attack innocent people based on the words alone.Legitimus (talk) 01:38, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
Treatment section problems
The sections "Pharmacological interventions" and "Limitations of treatment" are problematic. In the latter, there is really only one statement about any limitations, "but this method is not recommended ...", and the source is not reliable. Unless someone objects, I will combine these into a section titled "Castration", or perhaps "Chemical or physical castration" (other suggestions welcome), and reorganize it a bit. I'd like to incorporate some info from this source. Klortho (talk) 21:52, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
- I'm fine with giving the section some adjustments. Do you need full-text copies of any sources?Legitimus (talk) 13:41, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
history
this article needs a history section. i just read suetonius' 'the twelve caesars' and was looking for some info/understanding. i expected to find a reference to this disorder having existed among several roman emperors, and much more. an example would be the article on 'mental illness'; its history section provides at least some historical/broader perspective, preventing anyone's coming away with the impression that, say, mental illness as a general phenomenon suddenly sprang to life in the late 19th century. from this article, lacking any alternative info, one could get just that impression re pedophilia. 63.142.146.194 (talk) 16:33, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
"Pedophilia" in other animals section
I have reverted this ridiculous section that was added by CensoredScribe; I reverted per what was already discussed on this talk page (Talk:Pedophilia/Archive 17#Inclusion RFC); there is no documented evidence that pedophilia exists in non-human animals. Pedophilia is a mental disorder documented in humans; it is about a deep-rooted, mentally-driven desire (a primary or exclusive sexual attraction to prepubescents, prepubescent children), not simply the behavior (the act of sexually abusing a prepubescent child), which is why pedophilia and child sexual abuse are very much noted as distinguished in this article.
I'm surprised it took me showing back up to this article after many hours from Wikipedia for this mess to be reverted. Flyer22 (talk) 21:27, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
Sources
Found this article while reading one of Rush Limbaugh's blogs: Paedophilia: bringing dark desires to light --173.51.29.188 (talk) 22:12, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 10 January 2014
Development and sexual orientation
... Quote: "These observations, however, do not exclude pedophilia from the group of mental disorders because pedophilic acts cause harm, and pedophiles can sometimes be helped by mental health professionals to refrain from acting on their impulses."
This sentence should be removed, because the two arguments used here are complete nonsense. I will explain them seperately:
1) "...because pedophilic acts cause harm"
a) The term "pedophilic acts" doesn't make sense, the author must mean "child rape" or "child abuse" instead. Those criminal acts can be committed by anybody, regardless their sexual preference. Because if somebody rapes a woman, can this be written as a typical "heterophilic act"? Of course not, because in that case you directly connect all heterosexuals to crimes such as rape and abuse.
b) Also, "causing harm" is not a valid argument to determine if somebody suffers from a mental illness, because then a burglar, a murderer, or somebody who sets cars on fire as a form of protest must also be mentally ill, because he obviously "causes harm". So some people deliberately cause harm because of reasons, such as surviving in a poor country, as a form of political protest or just for fun. We CAN NOT connect those things directly to mental illness!
2) "... because pedophiles can sometimes be helped by mental health professionals to refrain from acting on their impulses."
This is also not a valid reason to classify pedophiles as mentally ill, because EVERYBODY can be trained to refrain from acting on their impulses, regardless their sexual preference. A heterosexual priest can be trained to refrain from sex because he or his community expects him to devote his life to God, a homosexual person can be trained to refrain from sex because he could be born in an evangelical community which expects him to do so, and so a pedophile can be trained to refrain from sex because admitting would cause social problems and harm children. So if this argument would be valid, EVERYBODY who can refrain from sexual acts should be mentally ill. This is of course complete nonsense. Abstinence however doesn't change people's sexual orientation, and there is still no scientific proof that pedophily can be "helped" or "cured" by "mental health professionals" with the method of applying abstinence. On the contrary, neuroscientists recently have discovered that people can be classified as pedophiles already BEFORE BIRTH, by studying their pre-natal brains, and those people will stay pedophiles during their entire life. Also there is no scientific proof that the number of pedophile men who rape children is significantly higher than the number of heterosexual men who rape women or the number of homosexual men who rape other men. Because of this, pedophiles can not automatically be classified as people with "stronger" impulses than other people, and therefore, the assumption that the impulses of pedophiles are a result of mental health problems is not based on any reliable scientific source.
Scientific source: http://www.uam.es/personal_pdi/psicologia/fpelaez/Ev_Int_P_sexuales/Documentos/Swaab_07.pdf
Most relevant quote from this source: "There are also claims of a change from pedophiles and homosexual men into heterosexual behavior through stereotactical psychosurgery by means of lesions in the nucleus ventromedialis, but these interventions are not only of questionable ethical quality, they also do not meet any scientific standard and thus cannot teach us anything."
Conclusion: Any claim that certain criminal acts like child rape are directly connected to pedophily, or that mental health coaches can "help" pedophiles from their impulses, are NOT based on any reliable scientific source.
AW78 (talk) 14:13, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- I don't where to start with your post other than you say you need to do some serious reading on Wikipedia's polices about No original research (i.e. you cannot use you personal observations and/or opinions in an article), Synthesis of published sources (i.e. using a good source that is only tangentially related to the topic and putting a "spin" on it to advance your personal opinions), and on the practice of mental health in general, because you seem to have no concept of what actually defines a mental illness.Legitimus (talk) 15:24, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- Not done: I fully concur. This is not WP:NPOV but is blatant synthesis - drawing your own, extremely broad, conclusion from one cherry-picked quotation. Arjayay (talk) 17:58, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
Definition yet again
SqueakBox, what problem do you have with the WP:Consensus lead version of the first sentence that you felt the need to change it? Is it the fact that it clearly states that 16-year-olds can be pedophiles as well? I disagree with your change to that first sentence, because pedophilia is first and foremost a medical term, at least if going by the most reliable sources on this topic -- WP:MEDRS-compliant sources, and it is also first and foremost a mental disorder. Per WP:LEADSENTENCE, "if the title is a specialised term, provide the context as early as possible. For example, instead of:
A trusted third party is an entity that facilitates interactions between two parties who both trust the third party.
write:
In cryptography, a trusted third party is an entity that facilitates interactions between two parties who both trust the third party."
That is one reason why "As a medical diagnosis" fits coming first in this case. Your version removes first defining this topic in the medical field, that it is a disorder and that it is about adults (or rather late adolescents and adults) having this disorder. Yet it still currently uses the words "diagnostic criteria" and "disorder" in the first sentence without context, and has the linked "psychiatric disorder" mentioned in the second sentence somewhat out of context. I would be all for beginning by stating that "Pedophilia or paedophilia is a mental disorder," but the wording "As a medical diagnosis" was added as a compromise for the few people stating that calling pedophilia a mental disorder is non-neutral or puts heavy emphasis on the medical aspect; so "As a medical diagnosis" was added to make it clear that it is the medical field that calls pedophilia a mental disorder. The first and second paragraphs are set up to focus on how the term is medically defined. The common (non-medical) use of the term comes after that. All that stated, your version does flow better; it just needs tweaking, in my opinion. The only reason that I didn't revert your change to the first sentence is because I know that you very likely would have reverted instead of simply bringing this matter to the talk page to discuss it. Flyer22 (talk) 16:38, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- My issue has been that we need to define pedophilia before stating the medical definition, for readability. I am here in this edit purely trying to make the article read better, I am not carrying an agenda about the content itself, for example that 16 year olds can be pedophiles sounds fine to me (its not like I make the definition, we leave to the experts whom we record through reliable sources) nor am I doubting that it is a medical term though we arent a medical encyclopedia and must assume our readers are medical laypersons with no background in medicine (much like me) and so what they will want to read first is a simple layperson definition of pedophilia, and I have tried to do that without altering the content in any way. Too often consensus edits can read badly because they are consensus and my concern here and now is that the opening reads well, and for me this means putting the layperson definition first.♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 17:25, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- Per what I stated above, we are defining pedophilia by stating the medical definition first. That is the authoritative/accurate definition of pedophilia; this is something you agree with, or at least have agreed with in the past; see Talk:Pedophilia/Archive 15#Consensus: General use before authoritative use?. Your change has not removed the medical definition coming first; it has removed the context that goes with that definition, which is "As a medical diagnosis," and placed it second. Per WP:LEADSENTENCE, we should give that context as early as possible. The layperson (common use) definition of pedophilia is not first, nor should it come first, because laypeople generally define pedophilia as adult sexual attraction to any minor (any person under 18)...as the lead and lower body of the article notes. The layperson (common use) definition comes after the medical definitions, as it should. Again, your first sentence does not note that pedophilia is a mental disorder, yet speaks of "diagnostic criteria" and "disorder," which makes it sloppy. Like I stated, it also does not note that pedophilia is a late adolescent/adult sexual attraction.
- As a compromise, I suggest we go back to even older wording for the first sentence: "Pedophilia or paedophilia is a psychiatric disorder in which an adult or older adolescent experiences a primary or exclusive sexual attraction to prepubescent children." Or perhaps "late adolescent" in place of "older adolescent," though RJR3333 (who is now indefinitely blocked) replaced "late adolescents" with "older adolescents" for one version of the first sentence. It might also be good to keep the "generally age 11 years or younger, though specific diagnostic criteria for the disorder extends the cut-off point for prepubescence to age 13" text as a part of the first sentence (though that's kind of run-on sentence territory if not placed in parentheses), or it can be added to the "As a medical diagnosis" sentence that currently comes second. Flyer22 (talk) 18:23, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
Hat note removal
The hat note says <quote>This article is primarily about the sexual interest in prepubescent children. For more in depth information on the sexual act, see Child sexual abuse. For the primary sexual interest in 11–14 year old pubescents, see Hebephilia. For the primary sexual interest in mid-to-late adolescents (15–19), see Ephebophilia.</quote>
We already state what the article is about in the opening, we dont need that in the hat note too. We also cover both Hebephilia and Ephebophilia in the article itself and I have now linked to the child sex abuse article in the opening. So IMO the hat note is unnecessary and merelyy distracts the reader, the majority of whom wont have heard of Hebephilia and Ephebophilia before reading the article and if they dont know the names they can find them out when they read the article♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 17:34, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- I think I was the one who originally added it. At that time, the lead didn't seem terrible clear on the matter and I had been encountering infuriating misuse of the word "pedophilia" itself left and right. You know, the usual stupidity of thinking it literally is the word for CSA or that it means being attracted to anyone under age 18. Based on the currently phrasing of the lead, I could go either way and am open to the opinions of other experienced editors in this area.Legitimus (talk) 17:47, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- Legitimus, I think you added that WP:Hatnote when the lead was clear enough, but you added it to make it clearer that child sexual abuse does not automatically equate to pedophilia. I agreed with that addition, and added on to it (it's also been edited by others since then). The WP:Hatnote in this case helps people not only find the topic they might actually be looking for (Child sexual abuse, Hebephilia and/or Ephebophilia), but also distinguishes these related terms right off the bat for readers. Keep in mind that, like WP:LEAD notes, many who read Wikipedia don't read past the lead. In fact, Wikipedia statistics report that most people who read Wikipedia don't read past the lead. So not having that WP:Hatnote up there is a disservice, I feel. However, I am not too hard-pressed to keep it up there. Flyer22 (talk) 18:23, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
- ^ Cite error: The named reference
britannica
was invoked but never defined (see the help page). - ^ a b Cite error: The named reference
faganJAMA
was invoked but never defined (see the help page). - ^ "Pedophilia". Psychology Today Diagnosis Dictionary. Sussex Publishers, LLC. 7 September 2006. Retrieved March 15, 2012.
Pedophilia is defined as the fantasy or act of sexual activity with prepubescent children.
- ^ Burgess, Ann Wolbert (1978). Sexual Assault of Children and Adolescents. Lexington Books. pp. 9–10, 24, 40. ISBN 0-669-01892-9.
the sexual misuse and abuse of children constitutes pedophilia
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suggested) (help) - ^ ""pedophilia" (n.d.)". The American Heritage Stedman's Medical Dictionary. Retrieved 2010-09-23.
The act or fantasy on the part of an adult of engaging in sexual activity with a child or children.
- ^ a b Ames MA, Houston DA (1990). "Legal, social, and biological definitions of pedophilia". Arch Sex Behav. 19 (4): 333–42. doi:10.1007/BF01541928. PMID 2205170.
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ignored (help) - ^ Cite error: The named reference
lanning3e
was invoked but never defined (see the help page). - ^ Finkelhor, David (1986). A Sourcebook on Child Sexual Abuse: Sourcebook on Child Sexual Abuse. Sage Publications. p. 90. ISBN 0-8039-2749-5.
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suggested) (help) - ^ Hall, MD, Ryan C. W. (2007). "A Profile of Pedophilia: Definition, Characteristics of Offenders, Recidivism, Treatment Outcomes, and Forensic Issues". Mayo Clinic Proceedings. 82. MAYO Foundation for medical education and research: 457–471.
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suggested) (help) - ^ Blaney, Paul H.; Millon, Theodore (2009). Oxford Textbook of Psychopathology (Oxford Series in Clinical Psychology) (2nd ed.). Oxford University Press, USA. p. 528. ISBN 0-19-537421-5.
Some cases of child molestation, especially those involving incest, are committed in the absence of any identifiable deviant erotic age preference.
- ^ Edwards, M. (1997) "Treatment for Paedophiles; Treatment for Sex Offenders". Paedophile Policy and Prevention, Australian Institute of Criminology Research and Public Policy Series (12), 74-75.