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:::::I just took a look at the [[Easter]] article, and it's '''full''' of references to Passover. It also discusses such issues as Christian groups that are against the celebration of Easter, and [[Pagan]] influences. -- [[User:Cecropia|Cecropia]] 21:44, 13 April 2006 (UTC) |
:::::I just took a look at the [[Easter]] article, and it's '''full''' of references to Passover. It also discusses such issues as Christian groups that are against the celebration of Easter, and [[Pagan]] influences. -- [[User:Cecropia|Cecropia]] 21:44, 13 April 2006 (UTC) |
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What has been done to this article on the very first day of Passover is going to make me lose my faith in Wikipedia. If you look at the top of this discussion page, you will see a lot of discussion about whether or not to include Christian views of Passover in this Jewish-oriented article. Obviously, there are marked differences between the way Christians and Jews think about and celebrate Passover. '''The consensus was to make two separate articles'''. Now along comes [[User:Fishhead64|Fishhead64]] who (in all good faith) decides to put the articles back together again. In my opinion, [[User:Fishhead64|Fishhead64]] should devote his significant writing talents to rewriting the [[Passover (Christian holiday)]] article, because he will be able present the information better than the way that article looks now. '''However, the whole section he added here has nothing to do with the Jewish Passover'''. And the '''first thing''' the reader sees when he opens this page is a clear directional reference: "Do you want to read about the Christian Passover? Then click here. Do you want to read about the Jewish Passover? Then keep reading." How could anything be encyclopedically clearer? [[User:Yoninah|Yoninah]] 22:24, 13 April 2006 (UTC) |
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==Red Sea?== |
==Red Sea?== |
Revision as of 22:24, 13 April 2006
Traditions and those who celebrate the Passover
Modern Jewish customs
Pasta is not leavened. Why must it be replaced?
- It increases in size when it cooks. For the same reason, rice and most beans are forbidden. So are most foods other than matzah that contain wheat flour, even if they don't increase in size when they cook. It may not be entirely rational, but religious observances tend to be based on belief and tradition, not reason. --Avocado 20:01, 2005 Apr 29 (UTC)
THE FIRST DAY OF PASSOVER IS AS WELL A DAY OF MOURNING AS IT IS THE BEGINNING OF A CELEBRATION. IN JEWISH TRADITION THE FIRST BORN MALE IN EVERY HOUSEHOLD FASTS COMPLETELY AS A SIGN OF MOURNING FOR ALL THE FIRST BORN EGYPTIAN MALES WHO DIED DURING PASSOVER. THIS IS IN RECOGNITION OF THE FACT THAT SMALL CHILDREN WERE INNOCENT OF THE SINS OF EGYPTIAN SLAVERY AND DID NOT NECCESSARILY DESERVE TO DIE AS PUNISHMENT.
- Nonsense. The firstborn fast on the day before Passover. The reason you give is not the accepted one. The firstborn fast because God still regretted having to kill any human (see eg Talmud Megillah 10b). JFW | T@lk 12:27, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Christian Passover
Similar traditions in Roman Catholic and Protestant beliefs
I think this should be a separate article. A "Christian Passover" topic will confuse anyone who is first learning about the true meaning of Pesach (Passover).
The "true meaning of Pesach (Passover)" for who? Christians who observe Passover believe they are celebrating the culmination and "true meaning of Passover." -- ASmolderingWiki 22 June 2005.
There is no such thing as "Christian" Passover
Can you name one mainstream Church that celebrates Passover alone as a full festival and not just as an adjunct to Easter? By the way as you consider this question you may also want to answer: Are there people on Mars? IZAK 08:45, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
- I agree. This should go - not notable, unless someone brings proof. JFW | T@lk 12:54, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
- Google lists ~4520 hits for the phrase "Christian Passover". A quick scan of pages from the 1st page seems to indicate a distinction between it and Easter celebrations. — Jeandré, 2005-07-29t21:33z
Specifying 'mainstream Church' excludes a very large percentage of the world. There are hundreds of thousands of people who celebrate the Christian Passover. They do not celebrate the Eucharist or Easter, but Passover!
If you don't know about it, you shouldn't be writing about it or editing other peoples writings. Saying that, "There is no such thing as 'Christian' Passover" indicates that your knowledge in this area is insufficient for you to comment.
Although there are some Christians who celebrate the Passover in a manner similar to the Jews, others celebrate in a purely Christian manner following instructions set out in the New Testament of the Bible.
The title of this article is "Passover", not "the Jewish Passover". Therefore, information regarding how other people observe this event is entirely appropriate and should NOT be delegated to another article.
Christians no more "hijacked" Passover from the Jews, than Jews hijacked it from Egyptians or Bedouins. ASmolderingWiki 07:04, 07 Aug 2005 (UTC)
Ok, everyone, how about this idea: A disambiguation page called simply "Passover". It will then connect to two separate articles, and in that way no one will be misled or anything. As the titles of the two articles, I think the most NPOV might be "Passover in the Jewish tradition" and "Passover in the Christian tradition". One or the other will have to be first, so how about the Jewish one, as it is the older one?--Keeves 13:37, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
Apparently the majority here are not interested in a NPOV.
Maybe a better way to approach this is to have a section about the "Christian understanding" of the passover. It is certainly true that Christians rarely, and certainly not corporately, keep the Passover. However, the Passover has tremendous significance, like it or not, to the Christian understanding of Christ. For example, the gospels of the New Testament clearly point to the death of Christ on Passover. The bitter herbs correlate with the suffering of Christ (Is 53). The sacrifice of the lamb correlates with His sacrifice. The blood on the doorpost correlates with the understanding of Christ's blood which sanctifies. Eating of the lamb, correlates with the notion that the body and character of Christ is to be made an internal work (Jeremiah 31:31-33). The removal of leaven correlates with the notion of the removal of sin from the life, and the searching of heart.
I'm not sure where people are getting the idea that John says the cross occurred prior to Passover. The closest I can come to is a comment in John 19 that states it was the Preparation day of the Passover when the Pilate scene took place. It is noteworthy that John 13:1-4 states that the Lord's supper happened prior to Passover; and after the Lord's supper, His death took place. Pilate makes a point in John 18 of stating that a prisoner is released on the Passover, so just as Barabbas was let go at that time, so also Christ was sent to His death. Further in other places in John it makes a point of the Jewish leaders specifically not wanting Christ's death on Passover because of the effect it would have on the people, which it did have as we know.
Some groundwork on the Preparation day text. First understand that just as the word Pentecost is used in Acts but nowhere in the Torah, so also there are conventions of terminology that Jews have taken on that can be confusing as to the sequence of days. That is, you will find some that refer to the "Passover" as the whole sequence of days including the feast of unleavened bread, or you also find some that refer to the Feast of Unleavened bread as the whole sequence (starting with the 14th, Passover). Read Leviticus 23:5-11 and you'll see that there is a sequence of the 14th day as Passover (not a sabbath; important) then the Feast of Unleavened bread (starting the 15th with a holy convocation and ending with a holy convocation with NO WORK, sabbaths) then on the 16th the day of first fruits. Preparation days in the bible are prior to a sabbath, see Mark 15:42 Luke 23:54 John 19:31. So, the preparation day here is prior to the first day of unleavened bread, which I believe was both a yearly sabbath and a weekly sabbath overlapped, and landed on the 14th of Abib/Nisan which is Passover as described in Leviticus.
Gregorian dates
http://www.jewfaq.org/holidaya.htm#Dates and http://www.hebrewcalendar.net/htdocs/main.en.html as at 2004-12-17t13:22z. — Jeandré
I don't know how to fix a table, but can someone please fix the table that gives the dates Gregorian dates that pesach begins and ends? Since Pesach is 7 days in Israel and 8 in the Diasporah, the table really needs two columns for the dates it ends. Chani 65.74.59.37 06:50, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
See also, overpass
I really see no point in having this reference on this article. Any objections to removal? Jwinters
Ok, I just deleted it. Jwinters | Talk 18:35, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Alleged "genocidal atrocity"
"the (alleged) fact that (the hypothetical) God killed all Egyptian firstborn sons": There should be some reference or comment on this genocidal atrocity.
- as far as I can tell, that's in the article.
Nonsense. Genocide would be the killing of all Egyptians, not just the firstborn. If you can find the Latin word for firstborn, then add -cide at the end, and presto, you've found the right term for the killing of the firstborn. And therefore... JFW | T@lk 23:25, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Since I reorganized the talk page yesterday, allow me to clarify my position. Someone (unknown user) had written the above statement about the "genocidal atrocity". I then replied "as far as I can tell, that's in the article." What I mean by that is there is already a point in the article about the killing of the firstborn. Jwinters
The fact is that the angel of death targeted only Egyptian children and while this may not be genocide it is certainly a crime against humanity. The festival of passover is celebrated over the bodies of countless dead children who no power over the fact that the Pharaoh kept the Jews as slaves. I feel that this should be made clear in the article. Holden 27
- I don't know much about terminology and "political correctness", but since when God (in any religion) can be a criminal and/or participate in a crime against humanity ? Using this view would also make noah flood as a crime against all living creatures! This was not a person doing the killings, but an angel sent by God.
What? I'm not sure how old this conversation is, but since nobody has said this it has to be said. It's that kind of misunderstanding of the Jewish Religion from many outside of it that leads to huge antisemitism. First off Holden 27, Passover is observed, as are most jewish holidays, since celebrated really isn't the right overall word to describe what we do. We ESPECIALLY do not celebrate the killing of the first born, or any of the Plagues for that matter. In fact, an entire portion of the seder is devoted to mourning for the pain the egypitians felt for the plagues. (The part with emptying the wine cups) How dare you say something like that. If you knew anything at all about the jewish religon, you would know That goes beyond offensive. And for you to suggest that anti-semitic Point of view should be written in the article. Frankly I'm Discusted.--Sgore
date
Someone should clear this issue up and delete one or the other of the statements.
Although the Christian Holy Week occurs around the same time as Passover, Passover rarely occurs during Easter. This is because the Jewish holidays follow a lunar calendar, and Christian holidays follow the Gregorian calendar. Not exactly correct. The Christian calendar is designed so that Easter nearly always falls out during the week of passover or immediately after. When it doesn't, it is simply an error in the Christian calendar. Lukobe
- It's not only the Christian calendar that is at fault. Look at this year (5765/2005): Easter is March 27, and the first day of Passover is April 24. Both are supposed to be near the vernal equinox (chodesh ha-aviv), and I'd say Easter gets it right this time. The reason Pesach is so late is the drift of the Hebrew calendar, which moves all of the holidays (relative to the solar calendar) an average of 1 day later every 200 years. (This is because the cycle of 7 leap years every 19 years is close, but not quite. We probably should have had one fewer leap year in there somewhere, so that Pesach would be a month earlier this year.) Dreyfus 23:47, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- I'm not sure that it's sensible to have a long debate about the date of Easter here. Christians, Roman or Eastern or Protestant, don't think if it as 'celebrating Passover' they think of it as celebrating Easter. It's virtually never called 'Passover' in Christian circles (possibly in Messianic Jewish circles). DJ Clayworth 14:55, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- There are Christians (now and throughout history) who celebrate Passover according to the Jewish calendar. It is a very separate and distinct celebration from Easter. (see [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter#Easter_and_the_early_Christian_Church Easter]) Also, according to both articles (Passover and Easter) many languages call Easter by some name that is derived from "Pasch".
Duplication with Passover Seder
Should parts of the "Modern Jewish Customs" section be merged with / replaced with a link to Passover Seder? There is substantial overlap. Avocado 01:10, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)
Move/disambig
Keeves split off Passover in the two religions and turned this into a disambig. This is completely uncalled for. The significance of Passover in Christianity derives completely from its status as a Jewish holiday (if Jesus had died on the 10th of August Passover would have been of no relevance to Christianity). To grant equivalence in this area is a misrepresentation.
Apart from an illogical move, Keeves is also acting against consensus on this talk page. Please discuss. JFW | T@lk 12:45, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
- That move was just silly. Passover needs a disambig like a fish needs a bicycle. This "Christian Passover" notion sounds like original research to me, and in any case, there is something POVish in placing these two Passovers next to one another on a disambig page, ie: it gives undue weight to this little known Christian Passover. If the notion is deserving of its own article at all, then a link in the See also section should suffice. Func( t, c ) 12:59, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
- Agreed, what Keeves did was silly, however he did have a point that the christian passover doesn't belong on this page, therefore the way it is currently after the edits by JFW it is perfect, that there is a link to the christian passover but the main page is the Jewish one. --Eliezer | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€ 13:19, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
- My apologies for going against a consensus that I did not see. What I see are two very different and incompatible views. I suggested this idea above in the section There is no such thing as "Christian" Passover, and when there was no comment after almost three days, I acted on it. Looks like I've been outvoted, so be it. --Keeves 13:51, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
Passover is primarily understood in a Jewish context; until the late 20th century no Christians celebrated it. When the reader is looking for Passover, he is almost certainly looking for the Jewish one, celebrated for thousands of years, not the Christian one, celebrated for the last couple of decades by a tiny minority of Christians. Wikipedia should cater to the needs of the reader, and have the main article here, with a disambiguation link to the extreme minority usage at the top. Jayjg (talk) 15:55, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
- For the record, I like and prefer it the way it is now, with the Jewish version on the main page, and Christian stuff elsewhere. And I probably would have split it in that manner, but I would have expected complaints from the people who have been adding the Christian stuff all along, and that's why I figured that two branches would have been more successful. I'm glad to see that I was wrong.--Keeves 17:59, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
"Until the late 20th century..."? Again, this shows that those of this group of editors are ignorant of history beyond their own interests. If you had only read the article you are so keen on burning, you would have seen that the Passover has been kept by Christians since the time of Christ! And they are not much more of a minority than the Jews!
"The reader...is almost certainly looking for the Jewish" Passover, -- And if he is not, you will make sure he doesn't find it anyway. And so, you do not want the reader to become any wiser! I'm glad to know that it is YOU who determines what a reader wants and needs to know and should know. Hiel!
If splitting the two entries is "silly", then splitting off the one part is abserd. -- ASmolderingWiki 13:40, 11 AUG 2005 (UTC)
Separate from the Passover disambiguation argument, maybe the term "pasch" should not lead directly to the Jewish passover page, as "pasch" can refer not only to the Jewish or Christian Passovers, but to Easter as well. (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=pasch&x=0&y=0) ----Michael
Section Request
Fast of the First Born. — <TALKJNDRLINETALK> Found it. Fast of the firstborn Added a See Also. Jndrline 23:27, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
Matza Picture
I think someone should substitute the square matza picture with a picture of shmura matza.
Reverting to months ago
Some IPs have vandalized this page slowly over time censoring Jewish parts and swaping them for Christian parts. As can be seen in this comparing. ems 14:28, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Looks like some people misunderstood the concensus a while ago, and several little mistakes have been creeping in since. I'd suggest an article RfC to sort out whether the two articles ought to remain split or be re-merged. Following that, it will be easier for the editors to tell what's needed on the page. Rob Church (talk) 14:47, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
- OK, further discussion with Ems has convinced me there is, at least for the present, no need for a second RfC; see how things pan out. Rob Church (talk) 15:06, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Warnings
I am giving warnings to each person that edited after the edit I reverted to. Anyone who reads this, take it as a warning, please keep christianity views on Passover (Christian holiday). And please do NOT remove Jewish views off this article. ems 16:02, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
"warnings" The word Passover isn't even a Jewish word in it's origin. And in wikipedia, excepting administrators, there are no absolute authorities. Now, while I agree that comments about observance of Passover by Christians are out of place, Passover has a huge significance to Christianity and it is absurd to be shunting it off to another forum simply because you don't like Christianity. You are actually not in keeping with NPOV by excluding all comments relating to Christianity. If you read the NPOV description in wikipedia, it very specifically states that it can be achieved by presenting opposite views. The section on the Christian understanding does not trample in any way on the rest of the article, leave it be. Wintermancer 18:16, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
- Your making BOTH articles according to christian views. It has been agreed that christian views will be kept on Passover (Christian holiday). This article is about JEWISH views. ems 06:17, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
From what I'm reading, the separation has occurred as a result of individuals that wish to discuss 1. Easter in the context of Passover and 2. Christians observing Passover in the present. I'm not sure where the ideas are coming from, but you can see by the title "passover Christian HOLIDAY" that this is what is being addressed. Yes, they so happen to discuss the implications to the Christian world as well. However, there is not a single Christian I know that doesn't appreciate the Passover specifically with its importance pertaining to history and the cross, as it was kept during that day by JEWS. When the public is looking for information on Passover, they are not going to be looking for the "Passover Christian HOLIDAY" and you know it. And while the Jewish observance is important, yes, the Christian side huge as well, but you appear to not want to acknowledge that, and I certainly will call POV here. If you want to say it's about JEWISH views only, why is it that you don't put it in a Passover JEWISH holiday section, or Pesach. Just because you have talked with a former admin doesn't mean "it has been agreed." And no, I don't want the entire article to become Christian, far from it, but a statement on the Christian perspective should be there, and futher it should be separate, not mixed in with the rest of the article, I wouldn't go near all that Talmud stuff. Call it a foot note if you will, I'll even put it after the Gregorian dates. You will notice that nothing else in the article has been touched, I haven't EVER removed anything Jewish from this article. It is amazing to me that with things like Zech 8:18-23 and Isaiah 49:6 there is this move push all goyim out the door, what gives? Wintermancer 07:17, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
- 99% of the time the term Passover is mostly used to refer to Jewish holiday. Please see Wikipedia:Disambiguation. ems 14:48, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
More like 99.99% of the time. If you ask virtually anyone about Passover, they'll say something about Jews, and the flight from Egypt. It is a Jewish holiday, and has been usurped by a minority of Christians. Keep the christian stuff off the main passover page. HedgehogNewt
Agreed. The Traditional Passover is concidered to be the Jewish Passover. There isn't a section called the Jewish Christmas in the Christmas Article, although there may be jews that have ways of celebrating Christmas. (Chinese food and A movie customarily.;)) Technically In any religon believeing in the Old Testimet, this is the traditional passover. Actually there is a special name for the Christian version "Pasch", although some may call it passover. The Jewish version is called "Pesach" So why not just create an article on "Pasch" instead of Christian Passover. Pesach is passover. Pasch is something else. That actually settles everything--Sgore
Factual tag
There's a {{factual}} tag on the article. What's the matter? Can't we get rid of it? JFW | T@lk 19:02, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
- I just did a thorough article expansion to cover the many different aspects of Pesach which were not included here. I also trimmed down the Passover Seder section, because it is really redundant vis-a-vis the Passover Seder article. Everything here is factual; perhaps it just needs a little more sourcing. Yoninah 23:17, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Note 1 on chametz
I think that this note is completely confusing and contradictory. In the interests of NPOV, someone has lumped together all the Orthodox, Conservative, and Karaite practices together into an unintellible mess. If someone is interested in the subject, he can view the chametz page, where all this information is stated again (that also needs a rewrite). Can we delete this note? Yoninah 08:01, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Chametz extended?
Chametz is the pre-passover foodstuffs, right? What about the food-stuffs bought kosher for passover. Could it be used after passover or must they be burnt also after? John wesley 17:29, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
- Chametz refers to the type of grain products we eat year-round. This can mean bread, pasta, cookies, soup nuts, and even matzo in which the flour and water have stayed in contact long enough for the dough to ferment and "rise." (According to Jewish law, it takes 18-22 minutes for a mixture of flour and water to start rising.) Thus, the matzo which is sold year-round in stores is not kosher for Passover because the manufacturers have no obligation to be careful about the time limit year-round.
- Anything that is chametz must either be eaten or disposed of (thrown away) before Passover. The ceremony of burning the chametz actually applies only to a few morsels, since this ritual is a symbolic statement that all the chametz in our possession has been cleaned out or nullified. After Passover ends, we put away all the Passover dishes for the next year and then go back to buying and eating chametz again.
- In contrast, grain products made from kosher for Passover matzo (like matzo itself, matzo farfel cookies or matzo meal cakes) can be eaten year-round, not just on Passover. There is no obligation to burn it after the holiday (in fact, we have to finish it up!). Yoninah 20:36, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
Origins of the Feast -- Zecher Korban Pesach
User:Yoninah wrote that the Zecher Korban Pesach is "usually a roasted chicken wing," and commented in the changelog that "According to Halakha, a roasted lamb bone resembles the korban Pesach and can't be used."
I looked in the Mishneh Brura to see what he holds, and met partial success. I could not find a discussion of what food item to use for the Korban Pesach, but I did find a discussion of eating roasted meat. The Shulchan Aruch (סימן תעו, סעיף א) says you must follow the local Minhag vis-a-vis the permissibility of roasted meat. The Mishnah Brura remarks that the Minhag "in these lands" (at least Poland, but what else?) is not to eat Tzli.
The Shulchan Aruch goes on to say (in סעיף ב) that anywhere roasted meat is Assur, so is roasted poultry ("anything that requires Schita"). So it would seem that either a "roasted lamb bone" and a "roasted chicken wing" are both Mutar, or both Assur.
Finally, Guidelines (publ. Feldheim, by R' Barclay and R' Jaeger) says to use "A piece of roasted meat or poultry" (#300), which implies that he does not hold like the Mishneh Brura. Guidelines elaborates to use "the shankbone [i.e.] the foreleg of the animal" (in the case of meat) and "the wing or neck" (for poultry), allowing any piece Bidi'avad (#307). The wording seems to imply that meat is preferable to poultry. Unfortunately, I can't decipher his footnote references, so I don't know his sources.
(caveat: I have not asked a Shailah on this yet!)
If we want the article to be complete, it should say "usually a roasted lamb shankbone, chicken wing, or chicken neck." But maybe simplicity is better than completeness?
In any case, I'm going to add this to the article, and if it's too much we can remove it.
-- Nmagedman 22:08, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
- Dear Nmagedman, thank you for pursuing this so diligently. My Sephardi neighbors use a leg of lamb on their Seder plate, so your amendation sounds fine to me. (Perhaps you also want to correct what I wrote under Z'roa in the Passover Seder Plate article?) Yoninah 22:18, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
- Discussion of what to use on the Seder Plate is found in Shulchan Aruch 473:4. It is NOT eaten; it only represents the Korban Pesach. Therefore, roasted meat is okay even for those who do not eat roasted meat at the Seder. --Keeves 16:49, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
- Excellent! Great work, Keeves!
- -- Nmagedman 21:18, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Just for your information, this is Wikipedia style. Yoninah 14:27, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Someone changed the date on Fast of the firstborn to April 12 a few hours ago. [1] Is this right ? If so, should the date of Passover be April 13 instead of April 12 as displayed right now ? -- PFHLai 07:40, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
- Nay, the fast takes place during the day until it's broken with the Seder dinner. Both occur on the 12th. Dbratton 11:19, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
- To clarify matters, every Jewish date begins at sundown and ends at sundown the next day. Thus Passover, which starts on 15 Nisan, begins at sundown on April 12. The second day of Passover, 16 Nisan, begins at sundown on April 13. Etc.
- Thanks for the quick responses. :-) -- PFHLai 23:08, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Eastern European Liquor Raids
"In the Eastern European shtetls, the Jews, who were often tavern keepers, would sell their chametz in this way to neighboring gentiles, and risk having the non-Jews enter their cellars to drink all the liquor during the holiday—which they often did."
This sentence seems completely out of place compared to the rest of the text. It looks to me like inflamatory supposition, or like the expression of an old grudge. Entering a neighbor's cellar and drinking all their liquor seems more like an incident than a common practice. In any case it seems completely unrelated to the act of selling chametz. If it is attached to a larger concern, maybe it needs to be moved to a different article.
- I was just trying to show that the sale of chametz is an actual sale, not a charade. I'll try to find a published source for this after the holiday (Passover). Yoninah 21:36, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Omission
There currently appears to be no mention whatsoever of Christian beliefs regarding Passover on this page. Whatever about the rationale of keeping most such content in separate articles, it is the height of political-correctness to not even remark on the relationship of Passover to Easter, and indeed the early (and even today) Christian celebrations of passover (not to mention mainstream Christian beliefs concerning the symbolism between Jesus and Passover elements).
The fact that Easter's name is derived from "Pesach" in almost every language (other than English, German and a few others) is telling.
Please rectify this - Wikipedia should not be attempting to ensure its article content is pleasing to the majority rather than fully informative.
At the very least there should be a short section with the usual "Main article" line, linking to Passover (Christian holiday).
zoney ♣ talk 12:06, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
- Removing Easter from the "see also" links is absolutely absurd. To say it has nothing to do with Passover shows the "contributor" has not even had a cursory look at our own Easter article, not to mention being wholly ignorant of even simply the name of the observance in most languages.
- zoney ♣ talk 12:12, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
- There's no need to be insulting. I have no problem opening this up for discussion, but since this is likely to be a very controversial topic it would probably have been better for the original contributor to have done so before making the edit. Either way, since I have no interest in a revert war, I look forward to hearing the thoughts of some of the other editors. Dbratton 12:30, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
- This article, as it happens, is about a Jewish holiday. I would not object to adding a link to Passover (Christian holiday) in the "See also" section, but separate section devoted to an unrelated holiday celebrated by a few people adhering to a different faith is unnecessary in this article. Pecher Talk 15:03, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
- Easter is not an unrelated holiday, and is not celebrated merely by a "few people". Not to mention that regardless of the small observance of "Passover (Christian holiday)", there are definite Christian views on Passover shared by the mainstream churches. You may not like including such information on this page, but the fact of the article being about a Jewish holiday does not exclude it (even if the actions of biased contributors have thus far succeeded in doing so). It is entirely relevant and pertinant to include a short introduction to the issue while linking to the main article(s) dealing with the subject. This is the Wikipedia and indeed encyclopaedic model. zoney ♣ talk 16:28, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
- The Collect for the Great Vigil of Easter includes the phrase "This is the Passover of the Lord," and the Exsultet includes the line, "This is our passover feast, when Christ, the true Lamb, is slain, whose blood consecrates the homes of all believers." The Liturgy of the Word for the Great Vigil includes Exodus chapters 14 and 15. The Renewal of Baptismal Vows for the day includes a thanksgiving to God for "leading the children of Israel out of the bondage of Egypt into the land of promise."
- The rationale for the significance of Passover for Christians is based on the tradition that Jesus was crucified on the first day of Passover. Rather than regard the insertion of the historical and theological significance of Passover for Christians as an example of Christian triumphalism (and believe me, I can totally understand that concern), it should be viewed as an example of the deep Jewish roots of Christianity, and the huge debt Christianity owes to Judaism. St. Paul described Gentile believers as wild shoots grafted on to the tree of Israel (Romans 11:17), and the continued centrality of the Passover tradition in Christian faith manifests this. Fishhead64 20:56, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
How about a mention that the Christians developed Easter from Passover? A simple statement of history, not of theology? John wesley 16:31, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
- Easter was developed from Passover, as Christmas was developed as a counter to Bacchanalia and other Winter Solstice celebrations; but the connection of Passover in Judaism and Easter in Christianity is much more intimate than that. Jesus was a Jew, and most scholars believe that The Last Supper was a Passover sedar. Some Christians have been taught that Jesus was only born a Jew, but that he somehow "converted" after death. I can understand that some Jews would feel that mentioning Easter in the context of Passover is a Christian appropriation of an important Jewish holiday, but it is historic fact and I don't see what gain there is for Judaism or for scholarship to try to distance Christianity from its strong Jewish roots. That Christianity does, in effect, acknowledge that Easter = Passover with the addition of Jesus' cruxification is perhaps best attested to by the fact that Christian calendar-makers have done handsprings to have Easter on a Sunday close to Passover without actually acknowledging that that is wha they are doing, rather than have it on a date fixed on the "Christian" calendar. -- Cecropia 21:46, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
- I obviously agree with you (see above), and unless some compelling argument is presented shortly as to why a small section on the significance of Passover in the Christian tradition should not appear here, I will append one by Good Friday. Hopefully that will spur further discussion and reflection. Be assured that anything I do add will be done sensitively and will be brief. Hopefully that will be a satisfactory compromise. Fishhead64 23:40, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
- I'm sure you would do it well, and I think it is enyclopedically important. I think it would be well to position and describe it in such a way as to describe a recognition of the holiday by a different but related religious tradition rather than as continuum of Jewish practice, since Jews obviously would not see it in the latter sense. -- Cecropia 01:10, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Happy Passover! Pesach! 71.80.36.167 01:00, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Passover in the Christian tradition
I included this new section which, I believe, is unsuitable for the separate article on Passover (Christian holiday), since it does not describe Passover as a Christian holiday, but its significance in Christian self-identity and its connection with the events of Holy Week. Let me know what you think! Fishhead64 03:28, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
- I like what you wrote very much and hope it will be satisfactory to all. As this is the first night of Passover, I imagine many Jewish people may not be reading and posting, so we may have to wait for more reaction and discussion. Trying to look at it as a disinterested reader might (i.e., coming upon the article as an encyclopedia reader) I think I would want to see a concluding paragraph tying the issue back into Easter's inheritance from the Jewish festival. You also emphasize the importance of Passover in church teachings, but is this knowledge passed on to the church members in the different denominations today? Or is the understanding of Easter divorced from Passover in the sense that the Jewish Sabbath, a critical observance in Judaism, is divorced from Christian Lord's Day observance, with the notable exception of some denominations, notably the Seventh Day Adventists? -- Cecropia 03:46, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Pretty sneeky adding in a Christian section while all the Jews were alway celebrating Passover. I have read both the added section and Passover (Christian holiday) and they are both saying basicly the same thing. It appears to me that the original reason for making two articles hasn't changed. Having a Christain section in passover is like having a Kwanzaa section in Hanukkah article. While Kwanzaa borrowed elements from Hanukkah its connected to Hanukkah is only breifly mentioned. As the jewish holiday stand on their own they are mentioned alone. As they later holidays are based on the ealier holidays the earilier holiday are mentioned. (Let hold off on any more additions until the holiday is over in america and the Jews can return to wikipedia; however some may take a week wikibreak for Chol HaMoed)Jon513 18:16, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
- I would ask you to assume good faith. The gentleman who posted this (see his talk page) is not a vandal or Christian POV-pusher. I almost never ask for an apology on Wikipedia (for myself or anyone else) but your comment "while all the Jews were alway celebrating Passover" is way out of line. It accuses this decent person of the worst practices of a vandal. Do you suppose he thought "the Jews" would return and not notice? Your comparison to Kwanzaa is inappropriate. Kwanzaa does not claim to be a religious holiday of any kind, but a cultural celebration. They don't claim their candelabra to be an extension of the Jewish menorah, no matter how similar looking. The connection between Jews and Christians and Passover and Easter are several orders of magnitude more intimate than Kwanzaa's symbolism. -- Cecropia 19:16, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
- Thank you for your defence, Cecropia. Indeed, what put me in mind of Passover was Holy Week - not some neferious desire to "sneak" something in. I don't think it's unreasonable to discuss the centrality of Passover in the Christian tradition — but, if someone wants to argue why it might be, I'm all for a discussion. Fishhead64 20:49, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
- I fully agree. I don't think that the discussion should be limited to one article or the other. The Passover has a relationship to Easter and vice versa. Fishhead64 21:01, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
- I think that is a wonderful idea, Pecher. Maybe Fishhead64 will do the honors since he is evidently knowledgeable. I'm in no way a professional at it, but my journeys have brought me in contact with people of many religions and denominations (but a tiny fraction of the world's) so I've heard people discuss their own religions in their own terms (and sometimes their beliefs about others'). I fully except that most religious people consider their own religion "the best" or "the true religion," but I think everyone should at least understand other religions, and when two great religious traditions are bound by common threads (even if spoiled by terrible conflict) it is well to understand them. Oh, and my post-sermon message. This is an encyclopedia: readers deserve to know this stuff if they're interested, even if they profess no religion at all. -- Cecropia
What has been done to this article on the very first day of Passover is going to make me lose my faith in Wikipedia. If you look at the top of this discussion page, you will see a lot of discussion about whether or not to include Christian views of Passover in this Jewish-oriented article. Obviously, there are marked differences between the way Christians and Jews think about and celebrate Passover. The consensus was to make two separate articles. Now along comes Fishhead64 who (in all good faith) decides to put the articles back together again. In my opinion, Fishhead64 should devote his significant writing talents to rewriting the Passover (Christian holiday) article, because he will be able present the information better than the way that article looks now. However, the whole section he added here has nothing to do with the Jewish Passover. And the first thing the reader sees when he opens this page is a clear directional reference: "Do you want to read about the Christian Passover? Then click here. Do you want to read about the Jewish Passover? Then keep reading." How could anything be encyclopedically clearer? Yoninah 22:24, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Red Sea?
Is a damn typo! As Moses was the the baby in the "bulrushes" - it actually is the "sea of reeds!" So please fix it. Or I will. - 67.20.71.218 17:47, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
- The Passage of the Red Sea hebrew (ים סוף Yam Suf) took place in the Red Sea. There is speculation that the name Red Sea came from a mistranslation of what should have been the Reed Sea in the Biblical story of the Exodus. The Sea of Reeds (in Hebrew Yâm-Sûph) may have been mistranslated as the "Red Sea". I see no reason not to use it more common name. Jon513 18:06, 13 April 2006 (UTC)