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So while it may be possible to find such stuff in depictions predating 1600, it should be considered random ornamentation, and not integral part of the coa. For the coas of 1600 to present, it is possible to add such items, ''provided'' they are based on a reference, and this reference is presented explicitly. |
So while it may be possible to find such stuff in depictions predating 1600, it should be considered random ornamentation, and not integral part of the coa. For the coas of 1600 to present, it is possible to add such items, ''provided'' they are based on a reference, and this reference is presented explicitly. |
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--[[User:Dbachmann|dab]] <small>[[User_talk:Dbachmann|(𒁳)]]</small> 10:48, 1 March 2013 (UTC) |
--[[User:Dbachmann|dab]] <small>[[User_talk:Dbachmann|(𒁳)]]</small> 10:48, 1 March 2013 (UTC) |
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*for Clemens VIII, I found a reasonably close and reasonably contemporary depiction of his coa [[File:Papst Clemens VIII Italian 17th century.jpg|here]], so I am for the moment assuming that coa's will be likely to be correct (which is not the same as verification) from there onward |
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*for Innocent IX, I find [[:File:Innocent9.jpg|this]], which is also claimed as contemporary (1590s), but being black-and-white, I cannot judge which tinctures the keys are supposed to be in. At least the basic ingredients keys, tiara, cord, are there. |
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*for Gregory XIV, Urban VII, Sixtus V, I have no information |
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*for Gregory XIII, I find [[:File:1358 - Bologna - Palazzo Comunale 1o piano - Lapide erezione statua Gregorio XIII - Foto Giovanni Dall'Orto, 9-Feb-2008.jpg|this image]], apparently a coa dedicated to him when he was already pope (1580), but ''not'' showing any keys or mitre. |
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So I suppose it is reasonable for the moment to assume the keys-and-mitre fashion for papal coas arose in the 1590s. --[[User:Dbachmann|dab]] <small>[[User_talk:Dbachmann|(𒁳)]]</small> 11:31, 1 March 2013 (UTC) |
Revision as of 11:31, 1 March 2013
Heraldry and vexillology List‑class | ||||||||||
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Crowned Ethiopian
What is the significance of the so-called "crowned Ethiopian"?
The upper left-hand section of the arms depicts a brown-faced Moor with red lips, crown and collar; it is a symbol of the former Diocese of Freising, of which Benedict was bishop, dating back to the eighth century. Though it is not known why the Moor came to represent Freising, the Pope wrote in his book "Milestones" "it is an expression of the universality of the church which knows no distinctions of race or class since all are one in Christ".
So it looks somewhat surprising (!), but seems to be OK...
Wrong color for Pope Benedict XVI
The color of the Coat of Arms for Pope Benedict XVI is wrong. The bagground for the bear should be bluw, see Local Catholic Network / Kurt L - Denmark
Dead Popes COA
I read that once a pope dies, his coat of arms no longer has the keys... is this true? 68.175.27.35 07:53, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Crossed Keys
Surely, the crossed keys are not classical or pagan in origin but a reference to Matthew's Gospel, chapter 16, verses 18-19?
"You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Thus, one key symbolises the binding or loosing on earth, and the other in heaven, and hence, the spiritual authority of the Papacy to forgive sin. Isn't this axiomatic?
Blazonings
Shouldn't the blazons of the various coats of arms be listed on this page, instead of just showing images? -Agur bar Jacé (talk) 17:00, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Fair use rationale...
- Image:JohnXXIIICOA.jpg is being used on this article....
- Image:BenedictXVCOA.jpg is being used on this article....
- Image:LeoXIIICOA.jpg is being used on this article.... BetacommandBot (talk) 23:34, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
I recall some previous discussion of use of images from [1], but I can't find the discussion. Gimmetrow 00:01, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Found explanation on Image:Stemma-Leone-XIII.jpg on commons.
La bildo estas kopiita de wikipedia:it. La originala priskribo estas: Stemma di Leone XIII Dalla pagina: http://www.araldicavaticana.com/Pontefici.htm Autorizzato alla pubblicazione dal detentore del copyright, via e-mail. Autorizzazione del curatore Fabio Ceresa in data 01.11.2004 Gentile Sig. Silla, grazie per i complimenti, inaspettati e graditi. Se non fossi preso dalla redazione della tesi gusterei il suo studio sui due poteri, ma temo che dovrò rimandare il piacere; in ogni modo, contraccambio il complimento sulla fiducia. Usi pure gli stemmi come meglio crede; purtroppo il webmaster (che non sono io) ha dovuto rimpicciolirli per questioni di spazio e memoria, quindi la definizione ne è lievemente compromessa. La saluto con cordialità e stima, Fabio Ceresa Autorizzazione del Webmaster Giovanni Sicari in data 02.11.2004 Se il signor Ceresa è d'accordo per me va bene. Giovanni Sicariresa è d'accordo per me va bene. Giovanni Sicari {{GFDL}}
Gimmetrow 08:02, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Accuracy
Hi, How does one know if these images are accurate? There is This image which is different and a new user added this image now which he made by himself which is ornate and different from the usual 2 dimensional Vatican coat of arms images. How do we know which was Leo's coat of arms? Thanks. History2007 (talk) 17:34, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
- They're equally valid representations of the same concept, except that Liptak's comet looks too much like an estoile. —Tamfang (talk) 01:35, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
Colour of the cord
sorry, I do not know the “cord fixing the keys” correct heraldic name: is it red, or gold? in fact, http://www.vaticanstate.va/IT/homepage.htm shows red cord, http://www.vatican.va/phome_ge.htm just shows b/w. by now, in article is given: CoA Pope gold, Vatican red, "emblem" both red --W!B: (talk) 17:49, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
Displays of keys and tiara
The coats of arms presented here are all in the current fashion and not accurate to contemporary depictions. This presents inaccurate coats of arms that were created based not on historical content, but, rather, out of misunderstandings and a misguided belief that things that are were always thus. Some things to note are:
- The two keys are crossed in saltire for the first time in the 12th century.
- Both keys ar depicted as argent until the 15th century; examples of this are found well into the 16th century still.
- The keys are not always found displayed with or in the arms, sometimes only the tiara was used. Sometimes neither.
- The tiara is not always found above or in the arms, somtimes only the keys were used. Sometimes, as mentioned before, neither are used.
- The tiara did not always have three crowns. ThEven after the first triple-coronet tiara appeared, double- and single-coronet types were still occasionaly found.
- The keys and tiara (or one and not the other) were often added as an augmentation to a pope's arms on a chief gules. This was a common practice up to at least the 16th century.
- Another display seen in earlier centuries is the use of a cross wbehind the pope's arms. Usually this would be seen in use with the tiara, the cross ofset to the dexter instead of being centered.
50.44.145.236 (talk) 09:18, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
I was going to complain about the same thing. If you have information on a coat of arms, just create an image based on the information you have, and cite your information. Don't just make up stuff by analogy, it does not work like this. I don't know how many coas shown here are correct, probably just the ones of the 19th to 20th centuries, perhaps also the 18th, probably not the 17th, certainly not the older ones. --dab (𒁳) 10:42, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
It seems that the problem originates with commons:User:Odejea who made a File:Template for Papal coat of arms.svg in 2008, and then like a golem combined it with absolutely every papal coa he could find. I.e. we do have File:Blason UrbainVIII.svg (uploaded in 2007), but Odejea turned this into File:C o a Urbano VIII.svg in 2008, and he then put them all on this page. To be fair, he just based his images on templates like File:Urbano VIII.jpg, which were in turn taken from this website. Well, the mistake was made by araldicavaticana.com, but this is no excuse for Wikipedia, because anyone editing here should know better than just to trust random webpages they find online.
The anonymous user states that "The two keys are crossed in saltire for the first time in the 12th century", but our article Coats of arms of the Holy See and Vatican City provides references which claims that this was first the case in the 14th century, so I don't know about the 12th and 13th, references are needed. As for the heraldic customs of arranging stuff around the escutcheon as an integral part of the coa, this practice originates in the 17th century. So while it may be possible to find such stuff in depictions predating 1600, it should be considered random ornamentation, and not integral part of the coa. For the coas of 1600 to present, it is possible to add such items, provided they are based on a reference, and this reference is presented explicitly. --dab (𒁳) 10:48, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
- for Clemens VIII, I found a reasonably close and reasonably contemporary depiction of his coa , so I am for the moment assuming that coa's will be likely to be correct (which is not the same as verification) from there onward
- for Innocent IX, I find this, which is also claimed as contemporary (1590s), but being black-and-white, I cannot judge which tinctures the keys are supposed to be in. At least the basic ingredients keys, tiara, cord, are there.
- for Gregory XIV, Urban VII, Sixtus V, I have no information
- for Gregory XIII, I find this image, apparently a coa dedicated to him when he was already pope (1580), but not showing any keys or mitre.
So I suppose it is reasonable for the moment to assume the keys-and-mitre fashion for papal coas arose in the 1590s. --dab (𒁳) 11:31, 1 March 2013 (UTC)