81.100.211.196 (talk) →Paint it black written by the Rolling Stones!: new section |
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{{WPRollingStones |class=start| importance=high}} |
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|action1date=19:53, 17 January 2021 |
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{{WikiProject Songs|class=Start|auto=inherit|importance=high}} |
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|action1link=Talk:Paint It Black/GA1 |
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|action1result=listed |
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{{Notice|{{find}}}} |
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|action2 = PR |
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== Requested move == |
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|action2date = 19 July 2021 |
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<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top --> |
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|action2link = Wikipedia:Peer_review/Paint It Black/archive1 |
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:''The following discussion is an archived discussion of a [[WP:RM|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. '' |
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|action2result = reviewed |
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|action2oldid = 1033119104 |
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|action3 = FAC |
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|action3date = 2021-09-18 |
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|action3link = Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Paint It Black/archive1 |
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|action3result = promoted |
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|action3oldid = 1044975686 |
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|currentstatus=FA |
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|maindate=16 May 2023 |
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|topic=music |
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|dykdate=31 January 2021 |
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|dykentry= ... that "'''[[Paint It Black]]'''" by [[the Rolling Stones]], which was inducted into the [[Grammy Hall of Fame]], was almost scrapped? |
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|dyknom= Template:Did you know nominations/Paint It Black |
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}} |
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{{WikiProject banner shell|collapsed=yes|class=FA| |
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{{WikiProject The Rolling Stones|importance=high}} |
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{{WikiProject Rock music|importance=high}} |
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{{WikiProject Pop music|importance=high}} |
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{{WikiProject Songs}} |
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{{WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors|user=Twofingered Typist|date=22 August 2021}} |
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== Tour of Duty (TV series) soundtrack == |
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The result of the move request was: '''No consensus, page not moved''' '''[[User:Ronhjones|<span style="border:1px solid black;color:black; padding:1px;background:yellow"><font color="green"> Ron<font color="red">h</font>jones </font></span>]]'''<sup>[[User talk:Ronhjones| (Talk)]]</sup> 00:59, 17 April 2010 (UTC) |
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There has been a dispute regarding the listing of ''[[Tour of Duty (TV series)|Tour of Duty]]'' in the "Cover versions and usage in media" section. I was mistaken in my edit summary to link [[WP:COVERSONG]] as I actually meant to link the section below it, which covers pop culture and usages in other media ([[WP:SONGTRIVIA]]). The concern that I have with this four-fold: |
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---- |
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# [[WP:SONGTRIVIA]] states that the inclusion of an entry should only occur when it has "gained its own critical attention...is discussed by a [[WP:RS|reliable source]]...and is "not merely listed or mentioned in passing". |
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# [[WP:VERIFIABILITY]]'s section [[WP:BURDEN]] requires inline citations be given and places the burden to do so on those who either add or restore the content at hand. |
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# The fact that [[Template:Citation needed]] exists does not discount the above |
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# In short order, I plan to close the peer-review and work on nominating this article to become a featured article ([[WP:FAC]] / [[WP:FA]]). Citation needed templates and unsourced information is not appropriate for an FA nor an FAC |
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It is worth noting that [[WP:IMDB]] is not [[WP:RS]] per [[WP:Perennial sources]]. --[[User:TheSandDoctor|<span style="color:#FF9933; font-weight:bold; font-family:monotype;">The</span><span style="color:#009933; font-weight:bold;">SandDoctor</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:TheSandDoctor|<span style="color:#009933;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 22:51, 15 April 2021 (UTC) |
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== Accuracy of statements == |
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This sentence surprises me on two fronts: "The unexpected success of the single in the US prompted the Stones to add the song to the American release of ''Aftermath'', as its opening track, replacing "Mother's Little Helper" to avoid the controversy its release had caused in the UK." |
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[[:Paint It, Black]] → [[Paint It Black]] — [[WP:COMMONNAME]] [[User:PatrikR|PatrikR]] ([[User talk:PatrikR|talk]]) 18:31, 4 April 2010 (UTC) |
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Was the single's success really unexpected? One might expect to read that about "Satisfaction", but by mid 1966 the Stones were on a run of huge hit singles – "Satisfaction", "Get Off of My Cloud", "19th Nervous Breakdown" and then "Paint It Black". To the point that the limited success of "Have You Seen Your Mother, Baby ..." truly was unexpected, and a major surprise. I can't access the source, but I question its accuracy and whether we should include the point even if a reliable source does state this. |
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*'''Support''' - This is the name of the song. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 04:48, 5 April 2010 (UTC) |
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Also (and again perhaps the source supports it, I can't check), it seems slightly illogical to say that "Mother's Little Helper" was omitted from the album to "avoid the controversy its release had caused in the UK" yet it was issued as a US single instead. It would've received far more attention in the US as a new Stones A-side than as an album track. Strange, no? |
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*'''Support'''. Most utterly ridiculous article name I've seen yet. This is a rock standard and the comma is just never used in the song title. Dunno how it survived this long. A quick Google confirms; Wikipedia is unusual if not unique in using the comma. [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] ([[User talk:Andrewa|talk]]) 09:58, 5 April 2010 (UTC) |
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Oh, and it's incorrect to be saying that in 1966, "Paint It Black" topped the likes of the UK Singles Chart and the Official German Charts. These charts and organisations didn't exist then – they were the ''[[Record Retailer]]'' Chart and, most likely, the [[Musikmarkt|''Musikmarkt'' Hit-Parade]]. It would be like saying the band played at a concert venue or recorded in a studio that was subsequently rebuilt and renamed, but using the modern-day name. (For example, the Rolling Stones recorded parts of their albums ''[[Goats Head Soup]]'' and ''[[It's Only Rock 'n Roll]]'' at Island Studio in Notting Hill, but we don't refer to the facility as [[Sarm West Studios]].) [[User:JG66|JG66]] ([[User talk:JG66|talk]]) 04:11, 24 August 2021 (UTC) |
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*Normally, go with what the song was titled ("Paint It, Black") but, since a bandmember disputes this title and subsequent releases haven't used it, then '''support''' per [[WP:UCN]]. (''cf.'' [[Pencil Thin Mustache]]). — <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;">[[User talk:AjaxSmack|<font style="color:#fef;background:navy;">''' AjaxSmack '''</font>]]</span> 01:21, 6 April 2010 (UTC) |
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:{{re|JG66}} ''Rolling Stone'' states {{xt|"The unexpected success forced the group to add it to the American release of Aftermath."}} in reference to "Paint It Black". The Billboard Book of Number One Hits (published by Billboard Books) stated {{xt|"Written during a March, 1966, tour of Australia and recorded at RCA's studios in Hollywood, "Paint It Black" was included on American copies of ''Aftermath'' instead of "Mother's Little Helper," a song that scandalized England with its saga of suburban drug abuse."}} |
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*'''Oppose''' This is the title of the song, [[:File:Paintitblack.jpg|per the cover]]. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (koavf)]]❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯ 04:56, 7 April 2010 (UTC) |
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:I don't see the issue here given that it is sourced in RS? |
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*'''Strongly Oppose''' This is definitely the correct song title, people! Anyone familiar with [[The Rolling Stones|the Stones']] discography can tell you that! [[User:PatrikR|PatrikR]], [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] & [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] are obviously not. Utterly ridiculous indeed! Especially since the single sleeve is there for all to see (as noted by [[User:Koavf|Justin (koavf)]] above) - an inexcusable oversight by these Supportees! (For a [http://www.sleurink.nl/images/album_covers/thumbs/980b.jpg recent example] of "Paint It, Black"'s unusual, but enduring, typography see the back cover of ''[[Forty Licks]]''. Also ''[[Live Licks]]'' - but I couldn't find a convenient picture. Try eBay.) "Dunno how it survived this long"??!!! Do your homework! The people who wrote this article weren't stupid... And btw, COMMONNAME? Are you serious? Whatever happened to CORRECT NAME...?? This is an encyclopedia after all, not some trend-chasing social site. [[User:Wikkitywack|Wikkitywack]] ([[User talk:Wikkitywack|talk]]) 12:03, 7 April 2010 (UTC) |
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:With respect to the chart names, the confusion would've arisen due to the fact that the modern charts list them. For example, take [https://www.officialcharts.com/search/singles/paint-it,-black/ Official Charts] listing "Paint It Black" as having charted No. 1 on 25 May 1966. --[[User:TheSandDoctor|<span style="color:#FF9933; font-weight:bold; font-family:monotype;">The</span><span style="color:#009933; font-weight:bold;">SandDoctor</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:TheSandDoctor|<span style="color:#009933;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 04:46, 24 August 2021 (UTC) |
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**The concept of ''CORRECT NAME'' begs the question: Correct according to whom? That's one of the many reasons that using the [[WP:common name|common name]] is Wikipedia policy. Record cover art is not a good indicator of common usage, to say the least. Sure we've all seen the record conver. It's no oversight. As to being familiar with Stones discography, I've lost count of the number of versions of this song I've played live with various bands, let alone the number of other bands I've heard cover it, and I've yet to see the commma in a playlist. It's just not there! No change of vote. [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] ([[User talk:Andrewa|talk]]) 07:19, 12 April 2010 (UTC) |
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::Pinging FAC participants to date {{re|John M Wolfson|Aoba47}} --[[User:TheSandDoctor|<span style="color:#FF9933; font-weight:bold; font-family:monotype;">The</span><span style="color:#009933; font-weight:bold;">SandDoctor</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:TheSandDoctor|<span style="color:#009933;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 04:47, 24 August 2021 (UTC) |
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**Yeah...sorry about the overreaction. But tell me: why is record cover art not a good indicator of common usage? Btw, aren't playlists notoriously unreliable when it comes to correct song titles? -Aren't they usually abbreviations of the actual song titles (like on the back cover of Dave Matthews Band ''Live at Red Rocks '95'' - see eBay for a picture)? [[User:Wikkitywack|Wikkitywack]] ([[User talk:Wikkitywack|talk]]) 09:06, 12 April 2010 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose'''. The Stones' official website still uses the comma; just follow the external link in the article to verify this. [[User:ReverendWayne|ReverendWayne]] ([[User talk:ReverendWayne|talk]]) 15:29, 7 April 2010 (UTC) |
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:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a [[WP:RM|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.</div><!-- Template:RM bottom --> |
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::1) Well, my point is, ''was'' the success unexpected after the Stones' previous hits? One RS might say this but dozens wouldn't, I believe. I helped get the ''Aftermath'' article to FA, using loads of the Stones biographies I own, and it's the first I've heard of "Paint"'s success coming as a surprise to anyone. |
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[[WP:COMMONNAME]] is a policy - it is not decided by a local poll, but by looking at what reliable sources use. |
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::2) Yes, "instead of" Helper, but does that source support the idea that the motivation was to avoid a repetition of the controversy that had taken place in the UK? Because that's what we're saying. |
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::3) Of course the contemporaneous charts have become the official ones we know now. But it's wrong to report that the song topped a chart that didn't yet exist by that name. I've given an example of a recording studio (and how we don't resort to using the present-day name); it would be the same for a music magazine or national newspaper – a reviewer would've reviewed a Stones album or single in ''Stereo Review'' magazine in 1966, not ''[[Sound & Vision (magazine)|Sound & Vision]]'', which ''SR'' became. On Wikipedia, it's only with music sales charts that I see this revisionism applied. It's historically inaccurate; I don't see editors of sports or history articles, for instance, having a problem with adhering to the correct contemporaneous names and organisations – quite the opposite, they're very fastidious about this. [[User:JG66|JG66]] ([[User talk:JG66|talk]]) 05:12, 24 August 2021 (UTC) |
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:::With regard to JG's second point, I agree that there is a disconnect between what the source says, only that MLH "scandalized England", and the article's claim that the change was made specifically "to avoid the controversy its release had caused in the UK." A new source will be needed for this point. Also, with regard to point three, I haven't seen anything in article style guides, but I agree that the established practice is to avoid anachronisms in chart names. <span style="font-weight:bold;text-shadow:1px 1px 40px black">[[User:Tkbrett|<b><span style="color: #000000;">Tkbrett</span></b>]][[User talk:Tkbrett|<span style="color: #FF0000;"> (✉)</span>]]</span> 12:49, 24 August 2021 (UTC) |
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*"Paint It Black": [http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22rolling+stones%22&hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=fWd&tbo=s&rlz=1R1GGLL_en-GB___GB379&tbs=bks:1,bkv:p&source=lnt&ei=hXftS7-gPIWunQPO1KiqDg&sa=X&oi=tool&resnum=1&ct=tlink&ved=0CBQQpwU The Rolling Stones: off the record By Mark Paytress]; [http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=k27BVJZzIwoC&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22rolling+stones%22&hl=en&ei=i3ftS-v2M4WGmwPGtqmqDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=paint%20it%20black&f=false The Rolling Stones By Thomas Forget]; [http://www.rollingstones.com/album/aftermath rollingstones.com]; [http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/reviews/album-the-rolling-stones-exile-on-main-street-polydor-1972701.html [[The Independent]]]; [http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/cd_reviews/article7125456.ece The Times]; [http://edition.cnn.com/2010/SHOWBIZ/Music/04/26/eric.lewis.interview/ CNN], etc. |
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*{{re|JG66|Tkbrett}} Copy edited to address all points. With respect to #3, I was pointing out the rational cause for the confusion with respect to the UK (that the UK Official Charts claims it charted in it on that date that predates their existence), not arguing for revisionism as was [[WP:AGF|seemingly implied]]. I was unable to find a ref for it peaking German number one, but did find Billboard tracking it internationally at number 2, so updated accordingly; I have a feeling it did hit no 1 given its trajectory, but Google Books appears to have a hole in its issues for Billboard. [[Template:Single chart]] doesn't support Record Retailer or Musikmarkt and could/should probably be added. --[[User:TheSandDoctor|<span style="color:#FF9933; font-weight:bold; font-family:monotype;">The</span><span style="color:#009933; font-weight:bold;">SandDoctor</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:TheSandDoctor|<span style="color:#009933;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 14:52, 24 August 2021 (UTC) |
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*"Paint It, Black": [http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2010/may/13/rolling-stones-full-album-gigs The Guardian]; [http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=b2b3HmK4bOoC&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22rolling+stones%22&hl=en&ei=i3ftS-v2M4WGmwPGtqmqDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=paint%20it%2C%20black&f=false The complete guide to the music of the Rolling Stones By James Hector]. |
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*A search on Google Scholar for "Paint It, Black" only returned "Paint It Black" - [http://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?hl=en&q=%22paint+it%2C+black%22+rolling+stones&btnG=Search&as_sdt=2000&as_ylo=&as_vis=0]. |
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*Images show a variety of record sleeves using "Paint It, Black" and "Paint It Black" - [http://www.google.co.uk/images?hl=en&q=%22paint%20it%2C%20black%22%20rolling%20stones&sa=N&tab=si]. |
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*A web search shows overwhelming use of "Paint It Black" - [http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=%22paint%20it%2C%20black%22%20rolling%20stones&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=iw]. |
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*The search term "Paint It Black" gets input into Wikipedia over 5,000 times a month - [http://stats.grok.se/en/201003/Paint_It_Black]. |
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*There is overwhelming evidence that most reliable sources and most readers use "Paint It Black" so that should be the name of this article. <span style="border: 1px #F10; background-color:cream;">'''[[User:SilkTork|<font face="Script MT" color="#1111AA" size="2">SilkTork</font>]]''' *[[User talk:SilkTork|<sup>YES!</sup>]]</span> 16:48, 14 May 2010 (UTC) |
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:I don't necessarily disagree, but I think you should've filed a new [[WP:RM]] rather than boldly overturned the above discussion. There was also non-trivial history and talk page discussion at {{la|Paint It Black}}. As such, I've reverted the bold move for now. –[[user:xeno|<font face="verdana" color="black">'''xeno'''</font>]][[user talk:xeno|<font color="black"><sup>talk</sup></font>]] 17:19, 14 May 2010 (UTC) |
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:*{{u|TheSandDoctor}}, thank you, that's very good of you to address those points so quickly. |
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::I'm not sure I completely follow your rationale here. You don't disagree, yet you revert because you feel process hasn't been followed? If I had read the above poll I would have closed it as move because not only are there four supports to three opposes, but also because there have been previous attempts to put this article right, and the [[WP:COMMONNAME]] policy directs us not to have a discussion first but to look at reliable sources, and the reliable sources - as I have shown above (including the Rolling Stones own website) - plus common usage (as I have shown above), plus all the sources used in the article, all indicate "Paint It Black". The move was compliant with [[Wikipedia:Move]] and [[WP:COMMONNAME]]. It is only when there is some doubt about which name to use, do we need to have a discussion. When most reliable sources, including the writer of the song, and most readers use one version, we go with that version. I'd welcome you doing some research of your own into the title, and if your findings are different to mine that would be the time to have a discussion. If you find that your findings match mine, then I would hope you'd do the right thing and move it back to "Paint It Black". <span style="border: 1px #F10; background-color:cream;">'''[[User:SilkTork|<font face="Script MT" color="#1111AA" size="2">SilkTork</font>]]''' *[[User talk:SilkTork|<sup>YES!</sup>]]</span> 18:09, 14 May 2010 (UTC) |
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:*With regard to Template:Singles chart, I confess I've felt the need to avoid using it (and the album version) for any articles I work on that cover music from this period. The template just doesn't seem to take into account that there was a chart world before things got official and before formal, national music industries took hold. The ''Melody Maker'' and ''NME'' charts were more prestigious than ''Record Retailer'' in the 1960s, for instance, it's just that the OCC and its antecedents subsequently recognised the RR chart for the 1960–69 period, because it was independently audited. But the point is, in 1966 it wasn't a BMRB, Gallup or OCC compiled chart. This era is of great interest to me but it's way before my time, and I'd similarly need to get educated if I was working on music articles from the 1950s – but again, the templates would have us believe that charts back then followed the present-day models. [[User:JG66|JG66]] ([[User talk:JG66|talk]]) 15:28, 24 August 2021 (UTC) |
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:::{{re|JG66}} I try to address and work through concerns as quickly as possible. {{smiley}} The templates sure would; I am glad that we can manually add entries outside of them. Would you be interested in checking out [[Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Paint It Black/archive1|the current FAC]] for this article now that concerns are addressed? --[[User:TheSandDoctor|<span style="color:#FF9933; font-weight:bold; font-family:monotype;">The</span><span style="color:#009933; font-weight:bold;">SandDoctor</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:TheSandDoctor|<span style="color:#009933;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 15:54, 24 August 2021 (UTC) |
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::::{{u|TheSandDoctor}}: Not big on the FAC thing, to be honest, but I will try to leave some drive-bys there. Good luck with the nom. So sad about Charlie, such a gent ... [[User:JG66|JG66]] ([[User talk:JG66|talk]]) 02:18, 25 August 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::I heard the news myself. Being a drummer myself, it hits hard... – '''[[User:Zmbro|zmbro]]''' <sub>([[User talk:Zmbro|talk]])</sub> 02:29, 25 August 2021 (UTC) |
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::::::{{re|Zmbro|JG66}} His passing was an unexpected gut punch to the music industry, I think. It is heartwarming -- and breaking -- to see all the tributes that are being made from artists spanning all genres and eras. Definitely shows he made a difference during his life. --[[User:TheSandDoctor|<span style="color:#FF9933; font-weight:bold; font-family:monotype;">The</span><span style="color:#009933; font-weight:bold;">SandDoctor</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:TheSandDoctor|<span style="color:#009933;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 03:26, 25 August 2021 (UTC) |
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::Thanks {{u|TheSandDoctor}}. I didn't realize this was up for FA, or I wouldn't have made all those changes on my own without commenting at the review. I anticipate being a little busy for the next couple weeks, but if it's still up as an FAC I'll try to get a review in. Cheers. <span style="font-weight:bold;text-shadow:1px 1px 40px black">[[User:Tkbrett|<b><span style="color: #000000;">Tkbrett</span></b>]][[User talk:Tkbrett|<span style="color: #FF0000;"> (✉)</span>]]</span> 17:21, 24 August 2021 (UTC) |
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:::Just playing devils advocate, but COMMONNAME is only ''part'' of the article naming policy, it's not the cardinal rule. |
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:::In my opinion, another RM is required here, so I won't move it myself as you suggest. |
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:::I still think the above shouldn't be simply unilaterally overturned; '''however''', I won't consider it wheel-warring if you re-implement your bold move (but I advise you against it). However, on a strictly procedural note, you'll need to move the redirect with non-trivial history and talk page content currently living at "Paint It Black" somewhere first (perhaps "[[Paint It Black (Rolling Stones song)]]"). –[[user:xeno|<font face="verdana" color="black">'''xeno'''</font>]][[user talk:xeno|<font color="black"><sup>talk</sup></font>]] 18:39, 14 May 2010 (UTC) |
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== |
== Title == |
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Embedded lists and trivia are discouraged per [[Wikipedia:Embedded lists]] and [[Wikipedia:Handling trivia]]. Unsourced material is discouraged per [[Wikipedia:Verifiability]]. The list is moved here as it may be used by editors to refer to as the basis for constructing a sourced prose section. <span style="border: 1px #F10; background-color:cream;">'''[[User:SilkTork|<font face="Script MT" color="#1111AA" size="2">SilkTork</font>]]''' *[[User talk:SilkTork|<sup>YES!</sup>]]</span> 16:08, 14 May 2010 (UTC) |
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===Other versions=== |
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{{Example farm|section|date=February 2010}} |
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"Paint It Black" has been covered by many other bands and music artists, including: |
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{{col-begin}} |
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{{col-3}} |
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<!-- Please keep entries in alphabetical order --> |
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*[[3 Steps Ahead]] |
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*[[7 Shot Screamers]] |
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*[[Anti-Nowhere League]] |
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*[[Anvil (band)|Anvil]] |
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*[[The Avengers (band)|The Avengers]] |
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*[[Astrovamps]] |
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*[[Azúcar Moreno]] |
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*[[Band of Susans]] |
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*[[Blondie (band)|Blondie]] |
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*[[Blue Öyster Cult]] |
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*[[Bluebeard (band)|Bluebeard]] (''[[The Devil's Advocate (film)|Devil's Advocate]]'' [[Soundtrack|OST]]) |
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*[[Burn It Down (band)|Burn It Down]] |
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*[[Caterina Caselli]] (in [[Italian language|Italian]] as ''Tutto Nero'') |
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*[[Chris Farlowe]] |
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*[[Crack]] |
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*[[Darkseed]] |
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*[[David Essex]] |
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*[[Deadsy]] |
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*[[Deep Purple]] |
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*[[Deranged]] |
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*[[Die Puhdys]] |
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*[[Dirk Bach]] (in [[German language|German]] as ''Schwarz und Rot'', Cover Version of the Cover by [[Karel Gott]]) |
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*[[Dirty Heads]] |
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*[[Dragan Kojic Keba]] (in [[Serbian language|Serbian]] as ''U crno obojeno'') |
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*[[Duran Duran]] |
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*[[Earth Crisis]] |
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*[[Echo & the Bunnymen]] |
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*[[Einherjer]] |
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*[[Example]] |
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*[[Face to Face (punk band)|Face to Face]] |
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*[[Firewater (band)|Firewater]] |
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*[[Françoise Hardy]] (in [[French language|French]] as ''Marie Douceur'') |
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*[[Gábor Szabó]] |
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*((Gary Hart And Diablo Vibe)) |
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*[[Gina Glocksen]] |
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*[[Glenn Tipton]] |
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*[[Gob (band)|Gob]] |
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*[[Grace Potter and the Nocturnals]] |
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{{col-3}} |
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<!-- Please keep entries in alphabetical order --> |
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*[[Grip Inc.]] |
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*[[Half Japanese]] |
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*[[Hampton String Quartet]] |
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*[[Hayseed Dixie]] |
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*[[Inkubus Sukkubus]] |
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*[[Johnny Harris (musician)|Johnny Harris]] |
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*[[Jonny Lang]] |
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*[[Kalan Porter]] |
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*[[Karel Gott]] (in [[German language|German]] as ''Schwarz und Rot'') |
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*[[Keith Fullerton Whitman|Hrvatski]] |
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*[[Krzysztof Grabowski|Grabaż]] and [[Strachy na Lachy]] (in [[Polish language|Polish]]) |
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*[[Laibach]] |
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*[[Lee Mead]] |
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*[[Leftover Salmon]] |
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*[[London Symphony Orchestra]] |
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*[[Los Mockers]] |
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*[[Marc Almond]] and The [[Royal Philharmonic Orchestra]] |
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*[[Marduk (band)|Marduk]] |
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*[[Marie Laforêt]] (in [[French language|French]]) |
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*[[M-Clan]] |
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*[[Mephisto Walz]] |
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*[[Mig Ayesa]] |
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*[[Mind Garage]] |
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*[[Nautilus Pompilius (band)|Nautilus Pompilius]] |
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*[[New Monsoon]] |
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*[[Nicotine]] |
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*[[Ottmar Liebert]] |
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*[[Panzer X]] |
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*[[Plan B (rapper)|Plan B]] |
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*[[Puhdys]] |
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*[[Quasi]] |
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Iron Maiden |
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Rammstein |
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*[[R.E.M.]] |
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*[[Rage (band)|Rage]] |
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*[[RC Succession]] |
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*[[Rick Wakeman]] |
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*[[Rush (band)|Rush]] |
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Marilyn Manson |
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Helloween |
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Amy Winehouse |
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{{col-3}} |
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<!-- Please keep entries in alphabetical order --> |
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*[[Samhain (band)|Samhain]] |
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*[[Siobhan Magnus]] |
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*[[Smack (Finnish band)|Smack]] |
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*[[Sum 41]] |
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*[[Television (band)|Television]] |
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*[[The Accüsed]] |
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*[[The Agony Scene]] |
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*[[The Animals]] |
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*[[The Avengers (band)|The Avengers]] |
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*[[The Big Wu]] |
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*[[The Black Dahlia Murder (band)|The Black Dahlia Murder]] |
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*[[The Doors]] |
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*[[The Feelies]] |
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*[[The Flamin' Groovies]] |
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*[[The Living End]] |
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*[[The Meteors]] |
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*[[The Mighty Lemon Drops]] |
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*[[The Mo-dettes]] |
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*[[The Quakes]] |
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*[[The Radiators (US)|The Radiators]] |
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*[[The Residents]] |
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*[[The Standells]] |
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*[[The Tea Party]] |
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*[[The Unseen (band)|The Unseen]] |
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*[[The Ventures]] |
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<!-- The Vines has NOT performed this song. Don't add it here! --> |
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*[[Tracy Lawrence]] |
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*[[Tunnel of Love]] |
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*[[Type O Negative]] |
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*[[U2]] |
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*[[Ümlaut]] |
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*[[Utada Hikaru]] ([http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVLxGGDrD1E&feature=player_detailpage#t=257s Ami Wana ~Paint it, Black]) |
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*[[Vanessa Carlton]] |
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*[[VersaEmerge]] |
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*[[Vicious Rumors]] |
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<!-- VNV Nation has NOT performed this song. Don't add it here! --> |
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*[[W.A.S.P. (band)|W.A.S.P.]] |
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*[[Witchfynde]] |
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*[[Within Temptation- (http://iLike.com/s/2G9HN)]] |
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*[[Zdob si Zdub]] |
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{{col-end}} |
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<!-- Please keep entries in alphabetical order --> |
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Is it really "Paint It Black" or rather "Paint It, Black" as written on the single cover for example? <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/77.1.167.199|77.1.167.199]] ([[User talk:77.1.167.199#top|talk]]) 13:31, 24 August 2021 (UTC)</small> |
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===References in popular culture=== |
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{{Trivia|date=March 2009}} |
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In recent years, the song was used in the ending credits of ''[[Full Metal Jacket]]'' and the opening credits of ''[[Tour of Duty (TV series)|Tour of Duty]]''. It was also used in 2004 in an episode-ending [[montage sequence|montage]] in the [[NBC]] television show ''[[American Dreams]]'', when a major character went missing in Vietnam. In the BBC [[Top Gear (2002 TV series)|Top Gear]] Vietnam special, aired in December 2008 the song is played briefly after an American decorated motorbike is unveiled as a threat to the presenters. |
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:Refer to the [[Paint It Black#cite note-2|explanatory note]]. <span style="font-weight:bold;text-shadow:1px 1px 40px black">[[User:Tkbrett|<b><span style="color: #000000;">Tkbrett</span></b>]][[User talk:Tkbrett|<span style="color: #FF0000;"> (✉)</span>]]</span> 17:38, 24 August 2021 (UTC) |
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Its other film appearances include ''[[For Love of the Game (film)|For Love of the Game]]'' and 1997's ''[[The Devil's Advocate]]'', played during the closing credits. The pilot of ''[[Nip/Tuck]]'' TV show also uses the Rolling Stones' version of the song. The song, as covered by [[Gob (band)|Gob]], was also featured in the film ''[[Stir of Echoes]]''. The Gob cover also plays over the end credits of the 2004 mini-series of ''Salem's Lot''. A French version of the song, recorded by [[Marie Laforêt]], appears in both ''The Devil's Advocate'' and the 2006 film ''[[Talladega Nights: The Ballad of Ricky Bobby]]'', and an alternative version appears on commercials for ''[[The Sopranos]]'' on [[A&E Network|A&E]]. |
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== RfC on Insider source started == |
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"Paint It Black" was also used in six video game titles. ''[[Conflict: Vietnam]]'' used the song during the opening sequence, while ''[[Twisted Metal: Black]]'' used the beginning of the song in the opening screen, then the whole song again in its end credits, and inserted into level music throughout moments of gameplay. A version of the karaoke game ''[[SingStar]]'' also features "Paint It Black". The song is also featured in ''[[Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock]]'' as a playable track, with an extended ending to avoid fading out like the original did (the game makes use of the master track). However, it is unable to be played in Co-op mode, as the bass and guitar tracks could not be separated (this can be heard in single-player mode also; when one makes a mistake, both the guitar and bass cut out). It is also heard playing on some static radios in the Eve of Destruction total conversion for ''[[Battlefield 1942]]'', ''[[Battlefield: Vietnam]]'' and ''[[Battlefield 2]]''. In addition, it was used in the television commercial for [[Vietcong (computer game)|Vietcong: Purple Haze]]. ''[[Karaoke Revolution]] Presents: [[American Idol]] Encore 2'' allows players to sing it and unlock a video of it being performed on ''[[American Idol]]''. |
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[[Talk:Westworld_(TV_series)#RfC Insider reliable for information on Westworld soundtrack?|An RfC]] at Westworld (TV Series) was spawned due to discussion at the FAC and PR related to this article. Please feel free to comment there. ---04:45, 28 August 2021 (UTC) |
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[[Isaac Brock]]'s indie side project [[Ugly Casanova]] has referred to the song in "Barnacles". |
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== Release date in infobox == |
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''[[American Idol]]'' Top 6 covered a short version of this for the [[Ford]] music video. |
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At the moment, the infobox provides only the US release date, written as "7 May 1966 (US)". I [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Paint_It_Black&type=revision&diff=1046898907&oldid=1046892021 added] the UK release date (13 May) but {{u|TheSandDoctor}} [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Paint_It_Black&diff=next&oldid=1046898907 removed] it since he and {{u|zmbro}} discussed this in the [[Wikipedia:Peer review/Paint It Black/archive1|January 2021 peer review]]. Apologies on not seeing that SandDoctor – I checked the FAC to see if it was mentioned but didn't think to look at the PR. |
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At 0:48 in the song "At This Hour" on the [[Spin Doctors]]' ''[[Turn It Upside Down]]'' album, they sing "You see a red door and you want to paint it black", a reference to this song. |
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Anyway, here are my concerns: [[Template:Infobox song]] mentions the following: {{xt|1=Generally, later releases or in secondary markets, reissues, on compilations, etc., should only be included in the body of the article.}} As well: {{xt|1= Usually, this is the date that it became widely available to the public, such as in retail.}} My concern is that having it written as "7 May 1966 (US)" implies at first glance that the single only came out in the US. I think it would be clearer to write either "7 May 1966 (US) [break] 13 May 1966 (UK)" or "7 May 1966". Neither the UK nor US market can be considered "secondary", and the single did not become widely available in the UK until its release there, so I would prefer to have both, but I think having "7 May 1966" without the "(US)" would be acceptable as well. <span style="font-weight:bold;text-shadow:1px 1px 40px black">[[User:Tkbrett|<b><span style="color: #000000;">Tkbrett</span></b>]][[User talk:Tkbrett|<span style="color: #FF0000;"> (✉)</span>]]</span> 11:46, 28 September 2021 (UTC) |
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The 1972 song "Thirteen" on the [[Big Star (band)|Big Star]] album ''[[Number 1 Record|#1 Record]]'' contains the lyrics "Won't you tell your dad to get off my back/Tell him what we said about 'Paint It Black.' " |
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:Since the other UK stuff is mentioned maybe it would be better to have both. Or we just remove "(US)" and keep it like that. – '''[[User:Zmbro|zmbro]]''' <sub>([[User talk:Zmbro|talk]])</sub> 12:39, 28 September 2021 (UTC) |
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::Given that {{u|Zmbro}} is cool with it, I've restored your edit, {{u|Tkbrett}}. I hope that you don't take the revert personally, I just wanted further discussion given that it was part of the PR. --[[User:TheSandDoctor|<span style="color:#FF9933; font-weight:bold; font-family:monotype;">The</span><span style="color:#009933; font-weight:bold;">SandDoctor</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:TheSandDoctor|<span style="color:#009933;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 02:23, 29 September 2021 (UTC) |
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:::Thanks {{u|TheSandDoctor}}. And no worries at all, everything here followed [[WP:BRD]] to the tee. The Wikimedia Foundation doesn't pay me enough to takes things around here too seriously. <span style="font-weight:bold;text-shadow:1px 1px 40px black">[[User:Tkbrett|<b><span style="color: #000000;">Tkbrett</span></b>]][[User talk:Tkbrett|<span style="color: #FF0000;"> (✉)</span>]]</span> 12:43, 29 September 2021 (UTC) |
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::::{{u|Tkbrett}} [https://tenor.com/view/kenny-were-the-millers-wait-you-guys-are-getting-paid-will-poulter-gif-15947359 Hold up...] – '''[[User:Zmbro|zmbro]]''' <sub>([[User talk:Zmbro|talk]])</sub> 12:47, 29 September 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::{{re|Zmbro}} I was just thinking the same! Clearly, we've been doing this all wrong from the start! {{u|Tkbrett}} I don't know how you did it, but you must show us your ways of getting the WMF to pay ''you'' instead of the other way around {{=P}} --[[User:TheSandDoctor|<span style="color:#FF9933; font-weight:bold; font-family:monotype;">The</span><span style="color:#009933; font-weight:bold;">SandDoctor</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:TheSandDoctor|<span style="color:#009933;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 02:07, 30 September 2021 (UTC) |
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== Erroneous quote from James Joyce's Ulysses == |
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Prior to being banned from ''[[The Howard Stern Show]]'', [[Crazy Cabbie]] was often introduced to his own [[theme song]], a variation of "Paint It Black", although with lyrics mocking Cabbie. |
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"Commentators often speculated that Jagger took inspiration from novelist James Joyce's 1922 book Ulysses, particularly the excerpt "I have to turn my head until my darkness goes", referring to the novel's theme of a world view of desperation and desolation." |
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In the [[Stephen King]] series ''[[The Dark Tower (series)|The Dark Tower]]'', "Paint It Black" is heard by several characters as they pass the same music shop in New York at different time periods. |
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The commentators are wrong. There is no such line in "Ulysses", or any other work of James Joyce. |
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The [[Kaiser Chiefs]]' song "[[Heat Dies Down]]" is loosely based on the guitar riff of "Paint It Black". |
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[[User:Irl32csc|Irl32csc]] ([[User talk:Irl32csc|talk]]) 00:11, 9 February 2022 (UTC) |
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:The line is from "Paint It Black", not ''Ulysses''. As your post suggests, the sentence ought to be reworded since it allows for this ambiguity. <span style="font-weight:bold;text-shadow:1px 1px 40px black">[[User:Tkbrett|<b><span style="color: #000000;">Tkbrett</span></b>]][[User talk:Tkbrett|<span style="color: #FF0000;"> (✉)</span>]]</span> 00:17, 9 February 2022 (UTC) |
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::One can apply Joyce to anything, but "Paint It Black" does not feel particularly derivative of Joyce or ''Ulysses''. Rather than expressing a worldview of desperation and desolation, ''Ulysses'' "celebrates the strength of spirit required to endure the trials of everyday life". https://www.ulyssesguide.com/ [[User:Irl32csc|Irl32csc]] ([[User talk:Irl32csc|talk]]) 13:18, 9 February 2022 (UTC) |
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In [[Good Charlotte]]'s song "[[All Black (song)|All Black]]", from their fourth album ''[[Good Morning Revival]]'', the line "...like the Rolling Stones wanna paint it black" refers to the song. |
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:::The fourth edition of Tony Visconti's book, '' 1,001 Songs You Must Hear Before You Die'', is used to source this particular claim. The version of the book [https://archive.org/details/1001songsyoumusttolistenbeforeyoudie/1001_Songs%2C_you_must_to_listen%2C_before_you_die/page/n368/mode/2up on the Internet Archive] (I believe the first edition) writes: {{quote|Mick Jagger's lyrics – "I have to turn my head until my darkness goes" references James Joyce's ''Ulysses'' – make the death of a loved one a catalyst for a blanket worldview of desperation and desolation, with no hint of hope. "It's like the beginnings of miserable psychedelia," Jagger reflected years later, "That's what The Rolling Stones started."}} This is a far cry from what it says in the body of the article: "Commentators often speculated that Jagger took inspiration from novelist James Joyce's 1922 book ''Ulysses'', particularly the excerpt 'I have to turn my head until my darkness goes', referring to the novel's theme of a world view of desperation and desolation." From my reading, all Visconti is saying is that the "darkness" line references ''Ulyssess'', but the comparison to Joyce ends there. Does anyone have access to the fourth edition of Visconti's book? Unless he greatly revised this particular bit of commentary, the source does not support the article's statement. <span style="font-weight:bold;text-shadow:1px 1px 40px black">[[User:Tkbrett|<b><span style="color: #000000;">Tkbrett</span></b>]][[User talk:Tkbrett|<span style="color: #FF0000;"> (✉)</span>]]</span> 13:45, 9 February 2022 (UTC) |
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::::I've [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Paint_It_Black&type=revision&diff=1071029412&oldid=1069400757 reworked] Visconti's statement in this part of the text. <span style="font-weight:bold;text-shadow:1px 1px 40px black">[[User:Tkbrett|<b><span style="color: #000000;">Tkbrett</span></b>]][[User talk:Tkbrett|<span style="color: #FF0000;"> (✉)</span>]]</span> 14:16, 10 February 2022 (UTC) |
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:::: Maybe the Joyce comparison can be included as a footnote? It's an interesting reference... [[User:Piotr Jr.|Piotr Jr.]] ([[User talk:Piotr Jr.|talk]]) 21:09, 25 February 2022 (UTC) |
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In "The Jeep Song" by [[The Dresden Dolls]], Track 10 on their 2003 [[The Dresden Dolls (album)|self titled]] debut album, [[Amanda Palmer]] sings "I see a red jeep and I want to paint it black" in reference to the "Paint It Black" line "I see a red door and I want to paint it black". |
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:::::I don't remember ever having noticed that line in ''Ulysses'', so I was surprised to see Visconti mention this, since I'm sure it would've stuck out to me. Searching editions of the book of the [[Internet Archive]] seems to indicate the line doesn't actually come from the book, and a [https://www.quora.com/Dozens-of-online-sources-claim-the-line-turn-my-head-until-my-darkness-goes-from-The-Rolling-Stones-Paint-It-Black-was-borrowed-from-James-Joyces-Ulysses-But-online-scans-of-the-text-of-that-novel-contain-no-such-phrase-Whats-the-truth Quora post] suggests it's a myth. I'm worried it may be a case of [[WP:CITOGENESIS]], or at least Visconti drawing from another source without actually checking to see if it's true himself. <span style="font-weight:bold;text-shadow:1px 1px 40px black">[[User:Tkbrett|<b><span style="color: #000000;">Tkbrett</span></b>]][[User talk:Tkbrett|<span style="color: #FF0000;"> (✉)</span>]]</span> 22:01, 25 February 2022 (UTC) |
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:::::: Yes. On the other hand, the doubts raised by folks online could be a reverse citogenesis, simply working against one author's particular interpretation of Joyce and Paint It Black. Ultimately, I don't think this is a major loss to the article. But could still be phrased as that he interpreted this as such. [[User:Piotr Jr.|Piotr Jr.]] ([[User talk:Piotr Jr.|talk]]) 22:14, 25 February 2022 (UTC) |
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== Black Adam (2022) == |
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The second chapter in [[Alan Moore]]'s ''[[The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, Volume III: Century]]'' is set in 1966 and titled "Paint it Black". |
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It was used in the 2022 film Black Adam. [[Special:Contributions/2600:1000:B161:8936:B83F:BEFC:3810:1614|2600:1000:B161:8936:B83F:BEFC:3810:1614]] ([[User talk:2600:1000:B161:8936:B83F:BEFC:3810:1614|talk]]) 10:45, 31 January 2023 (UTC) |
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The song "[[Welcome to the Black Parade]]" by [[My Chemical Romance]] makes reference to it in the line "... so paint it black and take it back..." |
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== [[The Feelies]] cover == |
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Japanese pop star [[Hikaru Utada]] revamps the first line at the end of "Amai Wana: Paint It, Black". |
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A cover version done by [[The Feelies]] could be included in the article. [[User:Zwerg Nase|Zwerg Nase]] ([[User talk:Zwerg Nase|talk]]) 07:02, 16 May 2023 (UTC) |
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[[Janet Fitch]]'s 2006 novel ''Paint It Black'' is named after the song; also, the quote before the first chapter is the first four lines of the Rolling Stones song.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://literati.net/Fitch/FitchBooks.htm |title=Books by Janet Fitch |publisher=Literati.net |date= |accessdate=2010-03-17}}</ref> |
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:How is it [[WP:SONGCOVER|notable]] compared to other covers? – '''[[User:Zmbro|zmbro]]''' <sub>([[User talk:Zmbro|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Zmbro|cont]])</sub> 13:59, 16 May 2023 (UTC) |
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The music website [[Last.FM]] has two skins, [[Simply Red]] and Paint It Black. |
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== What it's about == |
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The Lee Mead version of "Paint It Black" was used by Vincent Simone & Louisa Lytton due to represent the United Kingdom at the [[Eurovision Dance Contest 2008|2008 Eurovision Dance Contest]]<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.eurovisiondance.tv/event/artistdetail?song=24557&event=1473 |title=Vincent Simone & Louisa Lytton - Paint It Black - United Kingdom 2008 | Eurovision Dance Contest - Glasgow 2008 |publisher=Eurovisiondance.tv |date= |accessdate=2010-03-17}}</ref>. |
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Remarkable, a Wikipedia article about a song actually discusses what the song is about/the meaning of the lyrics. Commendations for that! Might there be more? (The discussion seems a little offhand right now.) --[[User:Piledhigheranddeeper|Piledhigheranddeeper]] ([[User talk:Piledhigheranddeeper|talk]]) 14:31, 16 May 2023 (UTC) |
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The web comic [[Order of the Stick]], strip #635<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0635.html |title=Giant In the Playground Games |publisher=Giantitp.com |date= |accessdate=2010-03-17}}</ref>, is entitled, "I See a Red Robe and I Want to Paint it Black", clearly in reference to this song. |
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== Mo-dettes cover == |
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In “The Christmas Show” episode of ''[[Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip]]'', Studio 60 co-executive producer Matt Albie ([[Matthew Perry]]) is complimenting Studio 60 cast member Harriet Hayes (Sarah Paulson) on being cast as Anita Pallenberg in a new movie about the Rolling Stones. He says “…you’re great casting for that…It’s a great part. Brian, Keith, Mick Jagger – they all considered her a musical confidante. ‘Paint It Black’ was all her.” |
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As noted in their article, the [[Mo-dettes]] version peaked at number 42 in the UK charts. The band article does not provide a reference. Is it notable? As an example of a recording being taken up by a group and genre that were promoted as being estranged from acts such as the Rolling Stones, and attracting sales, then perhaps. If alternative charts are consulted, then there may be a case that this was a considerable 'punk' success. [[User:LessHeard vanU|LessHeard vanU]] ([[User talk:LessHeard vanU|talk]]) 16:05, 16 May 2023 (UTC) |
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The song was once used in a promotional campaign for the [[All Blacks]] by one of their corporate sponsors, [[Steinlager]] beer, in the late 1990s. |
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== "Racial interpretation" == |
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The song was used as the entrance song for [[Johny Hendricks]] at [[UFC 101]]. |
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Congratulations to all editors who had a hand in getting this to FA status! It would feel in poor form for me to add a {{t|clarification needed}} on its day on the main page, but for a normal article, I would have done so on this statement: |
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The third book in the Sonja Blue series (''Midnight Blue: The Sonja Blue Collection''), by [[Nancy A. Collins]], is titled ''Paint It Black''. |
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:The song was originally released as "Paint It, Black", the comma being an error by Decca, which stirred controversy over its racial interpretation. |
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I don't have ready access to the source, but this is tantalizing in its vagueness. What is the "racial interpretation"? I can't find it mentioned or alluded to elsewhere in the article. If there isn't much to elaborate on regarding this interpretation or controversy, it might be better to say the comma was an error and leave it at that. --[[User:BDD|BDD]] ([[User talk:BDD|talk]]) 17:06, 16 May 2023 (UTC) |
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== Erkin Koray - Bir Eylül Akşamı == |
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Siobahn Magnus and Gina Gloksen sang this song on ''[[American Idol]]''. Each performance was one of the best for the singers. |
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"Paint It Black" is a clear imitation of Erkin Koray's song "Bir Eylül Akşamı", even Jagger is not denying it at all and I guess this information should be placed in the article. |
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== Paint it black written by the Rolling Stones! == |
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* [https://web.archive.org/web/20210813155717/https://rockcelebrities.net/did-the-rolling-stones-steal-paint-it-black-from-a-turkish-song/ How Could ‘Bir Eylül Akşamı’ Reach Mick Jagger And Keith Richards In The 1960s?] |
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This was written by the Rolling Stones. Mick Jagger and Keith Richards have openly discussed it. According to the introduction James Taylor disputes it. Well James Taylor never wrote a song called 'paint it black'. He wrote a song called rainy day man, in late 1966, (not released until 1971), after Paint it Black had been released. I would correct this article, as connecting James Taylor to the song, is bordering on fantasy. Wikipedia should be more focused on facts than fiction! |
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* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKmPlZHakQo Erkin Koray - Bir Eylül Akşamı] |
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[[User:Cemyildiz|Cemyildiz]] ([[User talk:Cemyildiz|talk]]) 03:10, 14 August 2023 (UTC) |
Revision as of 08:56, 8 February 2024
Paint It Black is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | ||||||||||||||||||||||
This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on May 16, 2023. | ||||||||||||||||||||||
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This article is rated FA-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Tour of Duty (TV series) soundtrack
There has been a dispute regarding the listing of Tour of Duty in the "Cover versions and usage in media" section. I was mistaken in my edit summary to link WP:COVERSONG as I actually meant to link the section below it, which covers pop culture and usages in other media (WP:SONGTRIVIA). The concern that I have with this four-fold:
- WP:SONGTRIVIA states that the inclusion of an entry should only occur when it has "gained its own critical attention...is discussed by a reliable source...and is "not merely listed or mentioned in passing".
- WP:VERIFIABILITY's section WP:BURDEN requires inline citations be given and places the burden to do so on those who either add or restore the content at hand.
- The fact that Template:Citation needed exists does not discount the above
- In short order, I plan to close the peer-review and work on nominating this article to become a featured article (WP:FAC / WP:FA). Citation needed templates and unsourced information is not appropriate for an FA nor an FAC
It is worth noting that WP:IMDB is not WP:RS per WP:Perennial sources. --TheSandDoctor Talk 22:51, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
Accuracy of statements
This sentence surprises me on two fronts: "The unexpected success of the single in the US prompted the Stones to add the song to the American release of Aftermath, as its opening track, replacing "Mother's Little Helper" to avoid the controversy its release had caused in the UK."
Was the single's success really unexpected? One might expect to read that about "Satisfaction", but by mid 1966 the Stones were on a run of huge hit singles – "Satisfaction", "Get Off of My Cloud", "19th Nervous Breakdown" and then "Paint It Black". To the point that the limited success of "Have You Seen Your Mother, Baby ..." truly was unexpected, and a major surprise. I can't access the source, but I question its accuracy and whether we should include the point even if a reliable source does state this.
Also (and again perhaps the source supports it, I can't check), it seems slightly illogical to say that "Mother's Little Helper" was omitted from the album to "avoid the controversy its release had caused in the UK" yet it was issued as a US single instead. It would've received far more attention in the US as a new Stones A-side than as an album track. Strange, no?
Oh, and it's incorrect to be saying that in 1966, "Paint It Black" topped the likes of the UK Singles Chart and the Official German Charts. These charts and organisations didn't exist then – they were the Record Retailer Chart and, most likely, the Musikmarkt Hit-Parade. It would be like saying the band played at a concert venue or recorded in a studio that was subsequently rebuilt and renamed, but using the modern-day name. (For example, the Rolling Stones recorded parts of their albums Goats Head Soup and It's Only Rock 'n Roll at Island Studio in Notting Hill, but we don't refer to the facility as Sarm West Studios.) JG66 (talk) 04:11, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
- @JG66: Rolling Stone states "The unexpected success forced the group to add it to the American release of Aftermath." in reference to "Paint It Black". The Billboard Book of Number One Hits (published by Billboard Books) stated "Written during a March, 1966, tour of Australia and recorded at RCA's studios in Hollywood, "Paint It Black" was included on American copies of Aftermath instead of "Mother's Little Helper," a song that scandalized England with its saga of suburban drug abuse."
- I don't see the issue here given that it is sourced in RS?
- With respect to the chart names, the confusion would've arisen due to the fact that the modern charts list them. For example, take Official Charts listing "Paint It Black" as having charted No. 1 on 25 May 1966. --TheSandDoctor Talk 04:46, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
- Pinging FAC participants to date @John M Wolfson and Aoba47: --TheSandDoctor Talk 04:47, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
- 1) Well, my point is, was the success unexpected after the Stones' previous hits? One RS might say this but dozens wouldn't, I believe. I helped get the Aftermath article to FA, using loads of the Stones biographies I own, and it's the first I've heard of "Paint"'s success coming as a surprise to anyone.
- 2) Yes, "instead of" Helper, but does that source support the idea that the motivation was to avoid a repetition of the controversy that had taken place in the UK? Because that's what we're saying.
- 3) Of course the contemporaneous charts have become the official ones we know now. But it's wrong to report that the song topped a chart that didn't yet exist by that name. I've given an example of a recording studio (and how we don't resort to using the present-day name); it would be the same for a music magazine or national newspaper – a reviewer would've reviewed a Stones album or single in Stereo Review magazine in 1966, not Sound & Vision, which SR became. On Wikipedia, it's only with music sales charts that I see this revisionism applied. It's historically inaccurate; I don't see editors of sports or history articles, for instance, having a problem with adhering to the correct contemporaneous names and organisations – quite the opposite, they're very fastidious about this. JG66 (talk) 05:12, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
- With regard to JG's second point, I agree that there is a disconnect between what the source says, only that MLH "scandalized England", and the article's claim that the change was made specifically "to avoid the controversy its release had caused in the UK." A new source will be needed for this point. Also, with regard to point three, I haven't seen anything in article style guides, but I agree that the established practice is to avoid anachronisms in chart names. Tkbrett (✉) 12:49, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
- @JG66 and Tkbrett: Copy edited to address all points. With respect to #3, I was pointing out the rational cause for the confusion with respect to the UK (that the UK Official Charts claims it charted in it on that date that predates their existence), not arguing for revisionism as was seemingly implied. I was unable to find a ref for it peaking German number one, but did find Billboard tracking it internationally at number 2, so updated accordingly; I have a feeling it did hit no 1 given its trajectory, but Google Books appears to have a hole in its issues for Billboard. Template:Single chart doesn't support Record Retailer or Musikmarkt and could/should probably be added. --TheSandDoctor Talk 14:52, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
- TheSandDoctor, thank you, that's very good of you to address those points so quickly.
- With regard to Template:Singles chart, I confess I've felt the need to avoid using it (and the album version) for any articles I work on that cover music from this period. The template just doesn't seem to take into account that there was a chart world before things got official and before formal, national music industries took hold. The Melody Maker and NME charts were more prestigious than Record Retailer in the 1960s, for instance, it's just that the OCC and its antecedents subsequently recognised the RR chart for the 1960–69 period, because it was independently audited. But the point is, in 1966 it wasn't a BMRB, Gallup or OCC compiled chart. This era is of great interest to me but it's way before my time, and I'd similarly need to get educated if I was working on music articles from the 1950s – but again, the templates would have us believe that charts back then followed the present-day models. JG66 (talk) 15:28, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
- @JG66: I try to address and work through concerns as quickly as possible. The templates sure would; I am glad that we can manually add entries outside of them. Would you be interested in checking out the current FAC for this article now that concerns are addressed? --TheSandDoctor Talk 15:54, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
- TheSandDoctor: Not big on the FAC thing, to be honest, but I will try to leave some drive-bys there. Good luck with the nom. So sad about Charlie, such a gent ... JG66 (talk) 02:18, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
- I heard the news myself. Being a drummer myself, it hits hard... – zmbro (talk) 02:29, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
- @Zmbro and JG66: His passing was an unexpected gut punch to the music industry, I think. It is heartwarming -- and breaking -- to see all the tributes that are being made from artists spanning all genres and eras. Definitely shows he made a difference during his life. --TheSandDoctor Talk 03:26, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
- I heard the news myself. Being a drummer myself, it hits hard... – zmbro (talk) 02:29, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
- TheSandDoctor: Not big on the FAC thing, to be honest, but I will try to leave some drive-bys there. Good luck with the nom. So sad about Charlie, such a gent ... JG66 (talk) 02:18, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
- @JG66: I try to address and work through concerns as quickly as possible. The templates sure would; I am glad that we can manually add entries outside of them. Would you be interested in checking out the current FAC for this article now that concerns are addressed? --TheSandDoctor Talk 15:54, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks TheSandDoctor. I didn't realize this was up for FA, or I wouldn't have made all those changes on my own without commenting at the review. I anticipate being a little busy for the next couple weeks, but if it's still up as an FAC I'll try to get a review in. Cheers. Tkbrett (✉) 17:21, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
Title
Is it really "Paint It Black" or rather "Paint It, Black" as written on the single cover for example? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.1.167.199 (talk) 13:31, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
- Refer to the explanatory note. Tkbrett (✉) 17:38, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
RfC on Insider source started
An RfC at Westworld (TV Series) was spawned due to discussion at the FAC and PR related to this article. Please feel free to comment there. ---04:45, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
Release date in infobox
At the moment, the infobox provides only the US release date, written as "7 May 1966 (US)". I added the UK release date (13 May) but TheSandDoctor removed it since he and zmbro discussed this in the January 2021 peer review. Apologies on not seeing that SandDoctor – I checked the FAC to see if it was mentioned but didn't think to look at the PR.
Anyway, here are my concerns: Template:Infobox song mentions the following: Generally, later releases or in secondary markets, reissues, on compilations, etc., should only be included in the body of the article. As well: Usually, this is the date that it became widely available to the public, such as in retail. My concern is that having it written as "7 May 1966 (US)" implies at first glance that the single only came out in the US. I think it would be clearer to write either "7 May 1966 (US) [break] 13 May 1966 (UK)" or "7 May 1966". Neither the UK nor US market can be considered "secondary", and the single did not become widely available in the UK until its release there, so I would prefer to have both, but I think having "7 May 1966" without the "(US)" would be acceptable as well. Tkbrett (✉) 11:46, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
- Since the other UK stuff is mentioned maybe it would be better to have both. Or we just remove "(US)" and keep it like that. – zmbro (talk) 12:39, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
- Given that Zmbro is cool with it, I've restored your edit, Tkbrett. I hope that you don't take the revert personally, I just wanted further discussion given that it was part of the PR. --TheSandDoctor Talk 02:23, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks TheSandDoctor. And no worries at all, everything here followed WP:BRD to the tee. The Wikimedia Foundation doesn't pay me enough to takes things around here too seriously. Tkbrett (✉) 12:43, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
- Tkbrett Hold up... – zmbro (talk) 12:47, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
- @Zmbro: I was just thinking the same! Clearly, we've been doing this all wrong from the start! Tkbrett I don't know how you did it, but you must show us your ways of getting the WMF to pay you instead of the other way around --TheSandDoctor Talk 02:07, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
- Tkbrett Hold up... – zmbro (talk) 12:47, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks TheSandDoctor. And no worries at all, everything here followed WP:BRD to the tee. The Wikimedia Foundation doesn't pay me enough to takes things around here too seriously. Tkbrett (✉) 12:43, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
- Given that Zmbro is cool with it, I've restored your edit, Tkbrett. I hope that you don't take the revert personally, I just wanted further discussion given that it was part of the PR. --TheSandDoctor Talk 02:23, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
Erroneous quote from James Joyce's Ulysses
"Commentators often speculated that Jagger took inspiration from novelist James Joyce's 1922 book Ulysses, particularly the excerpt "I have to turn my head until my darkness goes", referring to the novel's theme of a world view of desperation and desolation."
The commentators are wrong. There is no such line in "Ulysses", or any other work of James Joyce. Irl32csc (talk) 00:11, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
- The line is from "Paint It Black", not Ulysses. As your post suggests, the sentence ought to be reworded since it allows for this ambiguity. Tkbrett (✉) 00:17, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
- One can apply Joyce to anything, but "Paint It Black" does not feel particularly derivative of Joyce or Ulysses. Rather than expressing a worldview of desperation and desolation, Ulysses "celebrates the strength of spirit required to endure the trials of everyday life". https://www.ulyssesguide.com/ Irl32csc (talk) 13:18, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
- The fourth edition of Tony Visconti's book, 1,001 Songs You Must Hear Before You Die, is used to source this particular claim. The version of the book on the Internet Archive (I believe the first edition) writes:
This is a far cry from what it says in the body of the article: "Commentators often speculated that Jagger took inspiration from novelist James Joyce's 1922 book Ulysses, particularly the excerpt 'I have to turn my head until my darkness goes', referring to the novel's theme of a world view of desperation and desolation." From my reading, all Visconti is saying is that the "darkness" line references Ulyssess, but the comparison to Joyce ends there. Does anyone have access to the fourth edition of Visconti's book? Unless he greatly revised this particular bit of commentary, the source does not support the article's statement. Tkbrett (✉) 13:45, 9 February 2022 (UTC)Mick Jagger's lyrics – "I have to turn my head until my darkness goes" references James Joyce's Ulysses – make the death of a loved one a catalyst for a blanket worldview of desperation and desolation, with no hint of hope. "It's like the beginnings of miserable psychedelia," Jagger reflected years later, "That's what The Rolling Stones started."
- The fourth edition of Tony Visconti's book, 1,001 Songs You Must Hear Before You Die, is used to source this particular claim. The version of the book on the Internet Archive (I believe the first edition) writes:
- One can apply Joyce to anything, but "Paint It Black" does not feel particularly derivative of Joyce or Ulysses. Rather than expressing a worldview of desperation and desolation, Ulysses "celebrates the strength of spirit required to endure the trials of everyday life". https://www.ulyssesguide.com/ Irl32csc (talk) 13:18, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
- Maybe the Joyce comparison can be included as a footnote? It's an interesting reference... Piotr Jr. (talk) 21:09, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
- I don't remember ever having noticed that line in Ulysses, so I was surprised to see Visconti mention this, since I'm sure it would've stuck out to me. Searching editions of the book of the Internet Archive seems to indicate the line doesn't actually come from the book, and a Quora post suggests it's a myth. I'm worried it may be a case of WP:CITOGENESIS, or at least Visconti drawing from another source without actually checking to see if it's true himself. Tkbrett (✉) 22:01, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
- Yes. On the other hand, the doubts raised by folks online could be a reverse citogenesis, simply working against one author's particular interpretation of Joyce and Paint It Black. Ultimately, I don't think this is a major loss to the article. But could still be phrased as that he interpreted this as such. Piotr Jr. (talk) 22:14, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
- I don't remember ever having noticed that line in Ulysses, so I was surprised to see Visconti mention this, since I'm sure it would've stuck out to me. Searching editions of the book of the Internet Archive seems to indicate the line doesn't actually come from the book, and a Quora post suggests it's a myth. I'm worried it may be a case of WP:CITOGENESIS, or at least Visconti drawing from another source without actually checking to see if it's true himself. Tkbrett (✉) 22:01, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
- Maybe the Joyce comparison can be included as a footnote? It's an interesting reference... Piotr Jr. (talk) 21:09, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
Black Adam (2022)
It was used in the 2022 film Black Adam. 2600:1000:B161:8936:B83F:BEFC:3810:1614 (talk) 10:45, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
The Feelies cover
A cover version done by The Feelies could be included in the article. Zwerg Nase (talk) 07:02, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
What it's about
Remarkable, a Wikipedia article about a song actually discusses what the song is about/the meaning of the lyrics. Commendations for that! Might there be more? (The discussion seems a little offhand right now.) --Piledhigheranddeeper (talk) 14:31, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
Mo-dettes cover
As noted in their article, the Mo-dettes version peaked at number 42 in the UK charts. The band article does not provide a reference. Is it notable? As an example of a recording being taken up by a group and genre that were promoted as being estranged from acts such as the Rolling Stones, and attracting sales, then perhaps. If alternative charts are consulted, then there may be a case that this was a considerable 'punk' success. LessHeard vanU (talk) 16:05, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
"Racial interpretation"
Congratulations to all editors who had a hand in getting this to FA status! It would feel in poor form for me to add a {{clarification needed}} on its day on the main page, but for a normal article, I would have done so on this statement:
- The song was originally released as "Paint It, Black", the comma being an error by Decca, which stirred controversy over its racial interpretation.
I don't have ready access to the source, but this is tantalizing in its vagueness. What is the "racial interpretation"? I can't find it mentioned or alluded to elsewhere in the article. If there isn't much to elaborate on regarding this interpretation or controversy, it might be better to say the comma was an error and leave it at that. --BDD (talk) 17:06, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
Erkin Koray - Bir Eylül Akşamı
"Paint It Black" is a clear imitation of Erkin Koray's song "Bir Eylül Akşamı", even Jagger is not denying it at all and I guess this information should be placed in the article.