TheSoundAndTheFury (talk | contribs) →Article's title: Then why not two articles? |
Nikkimaria (talk | contribs) ga pass - well done! |
||
Line 1: | Line 1: | ||
{{GA |
{{GA|00:32, 25 September 2010 (UTC)|nominator=<span style="border: 1px #F10; background-color:cream;">'''[[User:SilkTork|<font face="Script MT" color="#1111AA" size="2">SilkTork</font>]]''' *[[User talk:SilkTork|<sup>YES!</sup>]]</span>|page=1|topic=Biology and medicine|status=|note=}} |
||
{{Talk header|search=y}} |
{{Talk header|search=y}} |
||
{{WikiProjectBannerShell|collapsed=yes|1= |
{{WikiProjectBannerShell|collapsed=yes|1= |
Revision as of 00:32, 25 September 2010
![]() | This article is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Good article
I would certainly not rate this as a good article, not in its current form. —Zujine|talk 21:53, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
- I'm quite open to that possibility, but it's difficult being objective with something one's had a major hand in writing. It would be great if you would care to elaborate, or roll your sleeves up... Ohconfucius ¡digame! 01:56, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
I think that the article is actually very good, from a quick view. The information is detailed and long enough. I think the beginning needs a major facelift. A good article must be not only full of knowledge, but visually appealing. Otherwise, the article is very nice. Ryderofpelham123 (talk) 20:50, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
- Would you expand what you mean by "major facelift" and "visually appealing"? I've looked again at the article and I'm not sure what you mean - other than perhaps having an image in the lead. I agree that images are useful, though I haven't found a suitable free use image of organ transplantation in China, other than Falun Gong related ones, and I would rather not use those in the lead as that would be giving undue weight to the Falun Gong issues. SilkTork *YES! 10:34, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think a serious article like this needs to be overly "visually appealing." In particular, we should be wary of adding too many lurid FLG "torture displays," thus compromising what should be a neutral presentation of quite serious allegations. Zujine, are you sure you read the article carefully? It actually appears to be quite thorough and well-researched. I'm impressed with the work of the editors here. This subject is notoriously controversial, and a neutral, independent presentation is often hard to come by. Bravo. The Sound and the Fury (talk) 18:58, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
Article's title
From the title of the article, I was expecting to read about the number of organ transplants being done, which centres (hospitals) are involved, differences in treatment regimens with the West, etc.. This article is actually about illegal organ harvesting. The title should be changed accordingly. Axl ¤ [Talk] 09:47, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
- That bit certainly needs to be built up. --Ohconfucius ¡digame! 10:03, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
- There is general information on the numbers of transplants, and history and development of transplants, the local attitude toward transplants; the legal situation regarding transplants, and how this has changed over the years, and how the local attitude toward transplants is changing. There is a fair amount of general information regarding organ transplantation in China. I agree, however, that there is a weighting toward the some of the international concerns regarding organ transplantation - this, though, is appropriate, as that is the most significant aspect of the topic, and needs to be explored in reasonable depth. Where I am less certain, is the amount of material on the Falun Gong allegations - that does seen disproportionate, and should be split out per WP:Summary style; and it has long been my intention to split that out into a stand alone article. There are issues surrounding that, however. A stand alone article previously existed, and has been merged into this article - and that has been disputed, and some of the people involved in that dispute are under ArbCom sanctions. I am interested to see how an uninvolved GA reviewer would deal with 3 (b) (stays focused) of the Wikipedia:Good article criteria. SilkTork *YES! 11:21, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
- There is indeed some general information regarding the number of transplants, local attitudes, and the legal situation. This is all relevant background information for an article about "Illegal Organ Transplantation in China". It is entirely inadequate in an article about "Organ Transplantation in China". If I was GA reviewing this article, I would require that the article's title should be changed. If you really expected me to review this article with its current title, I would quick-fail it. It has excessive undue weight on the illegal aspects of transplantation. It has no mention of the numbers of lung transplants, heart transplants, etc.. Which hospitals is this done in? What are the indications for the various transplants? How many lung transplants are performed for cystic fibrosis? How many for emphysema? What are the drug regimens used? How long do patients survive after transplant? How does this compare with the West? Axl ¤ [Talk] 09:50, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
- That is a good point. Then why not change it to "Illegal Organ Harvesting in the PRC," and have another article called "Organ Transplantation in the PRC," which discusses the legitimate aspects of the Chinese trade in organs? Those two articles should be sufficient. From what I can see on the page now, FLG's sensational claims don't warrant a new article.
Another approach is to clearly break the article into parts that discuss the legitimate and illegitimate organ transplanting practices. However, the same undue weight problem may emerge, when it's discovered that there is an abundance of information on illicit practices, but little on legal ones.The Sound and the Fury (talk) 19:04, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
- That is a good point. Then why not change it to "Illegal Organ Harvesting in the PRC," and have another article called "Organ Transplantation in the PRC," which discusses the legitimate aspects of the Chinese trade in organs? Those two articles should be sufficient. From what I can see on the page now, FLG's sensational claims don't warrant a new article.
GA Review
- This review is transcluded from Talk:Organ transplantation in the People's Republic of China/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Nikkimaria (talk) 03:23, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
Hello! I'll be reviewing this article for possible GA status. My review should be posted within the next day or two. Cheers, Nikkimaria (talk) 03:23, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
- I've decided to place this article on hold to allow time for the below issues to be addressed. I am watching this review page, so please respond below. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:07, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
Writing and formatting
- Be consistent in using American or British English
- "In the 1990s, growing concerns about possible ethical abuses arising from coerced consent and corruption led medical groups and human rights organizations to start condemning the practice in the 1990s" - no need to repeat 1990s
- "the Chinese Medical Association agreed not to use the organs of prisoners for transplantation, except for members of their immediate family" - please tell me "their" refers to the prisoners and not the CMA!
- Spell out or link MP on first occurrence
- Should include a few more internal links. I'm surprised that Organ donation wasn't linked as a matter of course. Other likely links include hepatitis, Amnesty International, etc
- "In China, organ transplantation began in the 1960s, which grew to a peak of over 13,000 transplants a year by 2004" - grammar. Also, transplants peaked in 2004
- "development of immuno-supressant drug, cyclosporine A, made transplants a more viable option for patients since the 1970s" - grammar
- "condemned taking organs from executed prisoners as it was not known if they had given consent to the use of their organs" - reword for clarity
- What is WHA44.25?
- Check use of semi-colons
- "assisted Wang to give" -> "assisted Wang in giving"?
- "was cite by ET" - grammar
- "argued that the hospital was incapable of housing 6,000 persons" - okay, but what does that have to do with anything?
- The mini-paragraph at the start of the Falun Gong section should be reworked and moved to the start of the report subsection
- Don't abbreviate their names as "K&M"; do so for the report title only if the sources do so
- "US dollar price lists various vital organs such as kidneys and hearts" - grammar
- "Chinese authorities to adequately respond... and an explanation" - grammar
- "holocaust" should be capitalized
- Minimize the number of one-sentence paragraphs
- Kilgour-Matas report or Kilgour Matas Report?
- "which stipulated that medical centres must meet for transplant services" - missing word?
- "In March, 2006, the Ministry of Health issued the Interim Provisions on Clinical Application and Management of Human Organ Transplantation, which stipulated that medical centres must meet for transplant services; the provinces were made responsible for plans for clinical applications. Establishments performing transplantation are thereby obliged to incorporate ethics, medical and surgical expertise, and intensive care" - I'm not sure I follow the progression here, could you clarify?
- "to restrict transplantations from donors to their immediate relatives" - all donors, or prisoners?
- The human rights article is linked in the text and thus shouldn't be in See also
- I think that Ohconfucius has dealt with these matters. Please let me know if any have been missed. I comment on WHA44.25 below. SilkTork *YES! 11:52, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
- Just a couple of points: check "ise" vs "ize" (and derivatives - for example, is the WHO an organisation or an organization?). Second, I would suggest reading it over and doing some general copy-editing - there are other issues with grammar and clarity. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:12, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
- As I have set all spellings to British variant, it would be an 'organisation. OTOH, the official name is spelt with a 'z'. --Ohconfucius ¡digame! 14:44, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
- British spelling accepts both ise and ize, so other than proper names such as WHO, either can be used used in this article. I'll scan through for other issues with grammar and clarity - though if they are mine I am likely to miss them! I hope to pick up other people's errors, and that Ohconfucius will pick up mine! SilkTork *YES! 15:04, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
- As I have set all spellings to British variant, it would be an 'organisation. OTOH, the official name is spelt with a 'z'. --Ohconfucius ¡digame! 14:44, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
- Just a couple of points: check "ise" vs "ize" (and derivatives - for example, is the WHO an organisation or an organization?). Second, I would suggest reading it over and doing some general copy-editing - there are other issues with grammar and clarity. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:12, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
- I think that Ohconfucius has dealt with these matters. Please let me know if any have been missed. I comment on WHA44.25 below. SilkTork *YES! 11:52, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
Accuracy and verifiability
- See here for a list of problematic links
Use a consistent formatting for references- Include retrieval dates for all web sources
Include publisher for all sourcesInclude page numbers for multi-page documents, journals, and newspapers (where applicable)- Address unreliable-source tag
- When I try to load canadianchristianity.com, my anti-virus software sends up a warning about it being an "attack page"
- Would you look at Wikipedia:What the Good article criteria are not, and separate your concerns related to GA criteria, and your general guidance for ongoing development of the article. It may, however, be worth waiting until the Falun Gong section is dealt with, as I feel that some of your concerns may be dealt with at the same time. SilkTork *YES! 11:33, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
- I have struck three points. Note also that I'm not asking that the problematic links be removed, simply that you check to see if the issues can be addressed. If they cannot, then say so. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:12, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
- Would you look at Wikipedia:What the Good article criteria are not, and separate your concerns related to GA criteria, and your general guidance for ongoing development of the article. It may, however, be worth waiting until the Falun Gong section is dealt with, as I feel that some of your concerns may be dealt with at the same time. SilkTork *YES! 11:33, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
Broad
- Need more emphasis on what here is termed "Background". Are there any breakdowns of donation/transplant counts by organ? Which hospitals are equipped to perform these procedures? Any particularly well-known for transplantation surgery? Why is organ donation so contrary to Chinese culture (just a sentence needed to explain)? Also, the section should be split or renamed, as most of it deals with the 2000s, not "1960s-1984"
- Will look into this. SilkTork *YES! 11:33, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
- Have made some adjustments. I am concerned about going too far though. The main notability of China's transplant programme is the organ harvesting and trade, so that has to be both the bulk and focus of the article; however to ensure balance, context neutrality, and broad coverage I have included some background detail. There is, however, a danger of downplaying the harvesting and trading if one goes too much into the other aspects. There has to be a balance, but that balance mustn't obscure what was in effect a very disturbing practise. And this article isn't about organ transplantation in general. The notability in China's programme is not the everyday transplanting, but the exceptional aspects of it. I'll be advised by you if you feel that coverage of other aspects is, though, still too little. Ensuring neutral balance isn't always easy. The face transplanting might be seen by some people as a smoke screen, so care has to be taken! SilkTork *YES! 12:39, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
- Understood. I think what is present now is probably sufficient. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:12, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
- Conversely, the section on Falun Gong should be shortened or spun off. I realize it's an important consideration, but it shouldn't be given more weight than the two International sections combined
- Ah! I've been working through these points backwards, and I have commented on this below. Yes, I agree that the section on Falun Gong is too long. I will consult with Dilip rajeev, Jayen466 and Ohconfucius on splitting that section out per WP:Summary style into a new article to be called Kilgour-Matas report. SilkTork *YES! 11:24, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
- I have already reduced the length of that section considerably, whilst preserving the essence. Let me know if it is still overweight. --Ohconfucius ¡digame! 12:31, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
- It's probably good enough now. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:12, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
- Does this article include the issue of tissue transplantation? It's mentioned in the lead, but not anywhere else
- I have removed tissue from the lead. Organ transplantation by implication includes tissue so there is no need to highlight it. I don't think there is one common word which covers both organs and tissue, so "organ transplantation" generally covers everything. I think "organ and tissue" was used in the lead so readers would understand that "organ transplantation" does involve both organs and tissue, but if you feel it sets up an expectation that is not delivered, then it is better removed. And the article and operational practise does focus on the organs rather than tissue anyway. SilkTork *YES! 11:21, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
Neutrality
- Make sure you distinguish between "acknowledged" and "not denied"
- There is one instance I can find of "acknowledged", and that accords precisely with the source, and is about trading in organs. The use of "not denied" is in taking organs from prisoners. They are related but different. One is the operation to remove organs from prisoners. The other is trading those organs on the international market. China denied they were involved in illegal trading, though did not deny they took organs from prisoners. They eventually acknowledged they not only took organs from prisoners, but also then sold those organs. I have reworded the lead to, hopefully, make this clearer. Does that help? SilkTork *YES! 11:12, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, thank you. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:12, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
- There is one instance I can find of "acknowledged", and that accords precisely with the source, and is about trading in organs. The use of "not denied" is in taking organs from prisoners. They are related but different. One is the operation to remove organs from prisoners. The other is trading those organs on the international market. China denied they were involved in illegal trading, though did not deny they took organs from prisoners. They eventually acknowledged they not only took organs from prisoners, but also then sold those organs. I have reworded the lead to, hopefully, make this clearer. Does that help? SilkTork *YES! 11:12, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
- Since this is a controversial topic, be very careful about WP:W2W, WP:ASF, and WP:UNDUE
- The reason I am involved is because of the controversy surrounding this and related Falun Gong articles - see Talk:Falun Gong/Moderated discussion. However I am not the only editor, and I don't check every edit. If there are any aspects or phrases that you feel are suspect, please indicate them so we can discuss it more fully. One of the concerns is that the Falun Gong allegation takes up a disproportionate amount of space, and should be split out per WP:Summary style into a separate article on the Kilgour-Matas report. The history of this article, however, is that any attempts to do that have been reverted. An experienced GA reviewer giving an impartial assessment of the article and reaching a decision either way regarding 3 (b) - "it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail" would be helpful. SilkTork *YES! 11:12, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
- The total wordcount without the lede section is 2689. The Falun Gong section is currently at 1053 words – I lopped 20% off. It's probably in balance now. --Ohconfucius ¡digame! 14:55, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
- The reason I am involved is because of the controversy surrounding this and related Falun Gong articles - see Talk:Falun Gong/Moderated discussion. However I am not the only editor, and I don't check every edit. If there are any aspects or phrases that you feel are suspect, please indicate them so we can discuss it more fully. One of the concerns is that the Falun Gong allegation takes up a disproportionate amount of space, and should be split out per WP:Summary style into a separate article on the Kilgour-Matas report. The history of this article, however, is that any attempts to do that have been reverted. An experienced GA reviewer giving an impartial assessment of the article and reaching a decision either way regarding 3 (b) - "it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail" would be helpful. SilkTork *YES! 11:12, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
Stability
No problems noted
Images
- A lead image would be great if you can find one - not a big problem, though
- Moved up the graph that Ohconfucius made as that is fairly neutral. previously there were no suitable neutral images - using a Falun Gong related image would have weighted the article. SilkTork *YES! 10:45, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
- I have no issue with that. --Ohconfucius ¡digame! 12:28, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
- The caption for the graph says "liver and heart transplants", while the graph itself specifies liver and kidney
- The Falun Gong image has a poster about "genocide camps" - are these the same as the "concentration camps" discussed in article text?
- I assume so. SilkTork *YES! 10:45, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
- That's what Falun Gong are drumming on about. --Ohconfucius ¡digame! 12:28, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
- Caption for Kilgour image contradicts image description page - which is correct?
- Ohconfucius must have fixed that as I see no inconsistency. SilkTork *YES! 10:45, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
- I did not touch it, as I saw no inconsistency either. --Ohconfucius ¡digame! 12:28, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
- Was his title "Secretary of State" or "Secretary for Asia and the Pacific"? Nikkimaria (talk) 14:12, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
Response
- I have dealt with most of the points raised under writing and formatting, and some of the others. Thanks! --Ohconfucius ¡digame! 07:20, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
Hi. Sorry, I didn't notice that a review was under way. I'll take a look at the points raised. Thanks for doing the review. SilkTork *YES! 08:54, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
- WHA44.25 is an international guideline on human organ transplants. I think originally I placed it in brackets, but these were removed in subsequent edits - I have restored the brackets. Let me know if you think that makes it clearer. SilkTork *YES! 10:41, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, that's better. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:12, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
- I think all the points have been addressed. Let us know if there's anything else. And thanks again for taking on this task. Not the most pleasant or easiest of articles to work through. I fully understand why it was left for so long on the GAN pile. You have done a thorough and admirable job. SilkTork *YES!