→Word 'Cult", Structure: Agree with Alec. |
→"Criticism and 'cult' allegations": Heh, is that the famous love-bombing? |
||
Line 602: | Line 602: | ||
:Maybe once i've made the full prose section, if the celebrities (Bish,Doc, et al) think it needed, we could add more supporting/rebuttal material. --[[User:Alecmconroy|Alecmconroy]] 16:04, 2 December 2006 (UTC) |
:Maybe once i've made the full prose section, if the celebrities (Bish,Doc, et al) think it needed, we could add more supporting/rebuttal material. --[[User:Alecmconroy|Alecmconroy]] 16:04, 2 December 2006 (UTC) |
||
::"Star-struck"? Heh, is that the famous [[love-bombing]]? :-) Yes, I think the canonization statements by John Paul II should be removed from the response section. ''Or'', at least, from the "historical" response section—my big point was that it's a bit absurd to have it in both places (and it's not like it hasn't also been mentioned before). |
|||
::I too have made a prose version of the criticism section, [[User:Bishonen/Opus Dei|here]]. It turns out to be a good deal like yours, Alec; in fact I guess mine might have been more to the purpose if I'd gotten round to posting it a bit sooner. Anyway, feel free to mine it for any details that might be of use. A minor matter, btw, Alec and Lostcaesar: you both use the word "claims" in your redactions of the criticism section. That's a bit of a weaselly word, please see [[Wikipedia:Words to avoid]]. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|talk]] 21:03, 2 December 2006 (UTC). |
|||
== Word 'Cult", Structure == |
== Word 'Cult", Structure == |
Revision as of 21:03, 2 December 2006
This article was featured in Wikipedia Selected anniversaries for October 2 on 2.10.05/06.
Archives |
---|
A Major Rewrite
In May of 2006, I watched a History Channel special on Opus Dei and decided to look up the Wikipedia article on the subject. When I first came to this article six months ago, I knew almost nothing about Opus Dei and had absolutely no strong feeling about it. (I still don't have any strong feelings about it). I did however notice that I felt the page had numerous NPOV problems. I noticed that many other people have had similar views about the page, but yet the problems persisted. For several months, I and other outside editors actively discussed the issue with the authors of this page, but failed to convince the pro-Opus Dei editors that a problem existed. Later, I engaged in mediation in at attempt to convince them, but this also failed to resolve our disputes. Since that time, I have showed a number of outside editors the Opus Dei page and asked their opinion on it-- all have detected severe NPOV problems and suggested ways I could resolve the issue. None have informed me I was in error in finding a problem. And now, just recently, I notice a similar problem has developed at the article on Escriva, with uninvolved editors finding major NPOV problems, only to have their improvements reverted by the same group of dedicated editors. For me, this is the final proof that my feelings on the article are correct, and I am now sufficiently confident that consensus will support my views that I am confident enough to act on this issue.
For the record, I myself do not believe the criticisms of Opus Dei. I do not believe that it is a "cult", and what is a cult but an unpopular religious group anyway? But Opus Dei is undisputedly the most controversial religious entity in all of the catholic church. So when I first saw the article on Opus Dei, I asked myself: "how is it that the wikipedia article on 'The Most Controversial Force in the Catholic Church' doesnt' have even one single section dedicated to the controversy?"
After all these months and thousands of words spent in discussion, I am now ready to officially declare that I believe a number of editors are not acting in good faith. By which I just mean: people are putting their "Duty to God" above their "Duty to Wikipedia" and they are actively seeking to promote their own religious beliefs on Wikipedia. I will not name names, but there are at least six different editors with 3000 edits between them, all with a distinctinly pro-Opus Dei editing tendency. Indeed, I believe I am correct in saying that none have made even a single edit that wasn't related to Opus Dei. They actively remove criticism of Opus Dei, regularly insert praise, and have generally sought to promote Opus Dei and its members-- creating at least 22 different Wikipedia articles on Opus Dei. This is extremely suspicious, and despiting being a huge believing in WP:Assume Good Faith, I do not think I would be too "off base" in suggesting these editors are single purpose accounts who are actively seeking to promote Opus Dei on Wikipedia.
Therefore, I am going to work hard to take the steps necessary to defend the encyclopedia and to bring this article up to feature article quality, taking whatever actions are necessary to ensure that we get the very best article possible. If I am wrong, and the true consensus of the good-faith editors is that my edits do not improve the article, I will welcome that conclusion, as it will require the least amount of work on my part, and I have no ax to grind against OD whatsoever. I, however, am now fully convinced that I am correct in my conclusions, and if I fail to work hard towards improving the article, I am merely putting off a problem, making some other person in the future have to clean up the mess i'm unwilling to fix. I apologize for the strife I expect these actions will create, I am confident the encyclopedia will be better for it.
As such, I'm going to put up the new version for people to look at. I will automatically add the NPOV tag to it so people can know a dispute is ongoing about whether my rewrite is an improvment. I will create Request for Comment so that uninvolved editors may work to improve the article. Since our last RFC in May got exactly 1 new opinion, I will work to solicit more by personally contacting some editors who have in the past been involved in this article, as well as other editors whose opinions I would value on this issue. I will keep restoring this version, as long as policy permits, if it is removed by accounts that appear to have been created only to edit Opus Dei-related articles, and if such deletions are persistent, I will seek administrator intervention against those tendentious editors who appear to be in violation of Wikipedia is not a soapbox. Lastly, I should reiterate-- my interest here is in Wikipedia, not Opus Dei, and at no time will I act contrary to a firm consensus of good-faith editors who do not appear to be single purpose accounts created just to promote Opus Dei. --Alecmconroy 07:33, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
- As a practising Roman Catholic, one time Numerary Likely, and future priest of the Roman Catholic Church I would like to add my voice to serious concerns expressed here over the level of POV being used in this article and in the biography of Escriva. The Church contains 1,000,000,000+ members - of which the astoundingly vast proportion are not Opus Dei members nor never will be. Wikipedia is an open source encyclopedia, and as such it operates via consensus backed by academic source. I have countless attempts at introducing balance into this article simply slapped down. Now, we have two options. Either Alec's adaptations are treated honestly and with a modicum of fairplay or we can ask an admin to slap a lock on the article as a whole and be done with it. Opus Dei has much to offer, but if the millions of users who contribute to the site see nothing but heavyhandedness it reflects very badly who those who purport to defend the prelature and its aims. Thanks, Iamlondon 14:11, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Problems with the old version of the article
- Verifiablity. Numerous staments in the old article were unverifiable. Some portions were essentially extended original essays on "What Opus Dei Means To Me". Opinions were often presented as facts. Religious opinions and personal observations were often presented as facts rather that opinions.
- Citations. Despite the extensive energy that was dedicated to it, the old article was mostly uncited. This is because much of the old article was uncitable, even in principle. For example, what citation could one produce in order to verify the sentence: "Each person is free —in control of his actions— and thus responsible for his spiritual and social life. Jesus redeemed us with the free choice of love"
- Balance. The old article was greatly unbalanced towards the pro-OD point of view. One editor, speaking sincerely, said he felt that the article should be at least 90% pro-OD, and indeed, about 90% of the article he created praised Opus Dei, with the remainder of the space used to introduce and dismiss the criticisms.
- Controversy. Despite the indisputed fact that Opus Dei is "the most controversial force in all of catholicism", the old article did not have even a single section devoted to the controversy or criticism of Opus Dei. Such material had been repeatedly introduced by numerous outside editors, only to be deleted repeatedly by members of OD.
- Tone. The old article lacked encyclopedic tone. Instead, numerous outside editors had referred to it as a "brochure for Opus Dei".
- Brevity. The old article was over 60kb-- more than double the recommended limit. This was due largely to the extensive use of direct quotations which praised Opus Dei and its members. There simply was no need for such length-- the rewritten article covers all the same basic information, while being under the recommended 30kb article length.
- Organization. The old article was extremely poorly organized. Section headings often had little connection to their contents, and it was unclear where in the article one would find what information.
--Alecmconroy 07:33, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
An example comparision between New and Old
Taxico mentioned that it's sometimes hard to tell what has been changed so I thought I'd highlight some of the differences, so that commentors can see the difference. Let me show how I rewrote the Theology Section, which I think it representative of the whole problem of the article
- Here are links to the Old section, the New Section (a not very helpful diff)
The old Theology section, oddly entitled "Lay Spirituality" essentially an original essay on Opus Dei. The section is not encyclopedic, it is written in persuasive writing that attempts to justify, not convey, Opus Dei's theology. Consider just a few representative sentences which were found in the old theology section:
- Since the Bible stated that man was created "to work" (Gen 2:15) and that Jesus "did all things well" (Mk 7:37), Escrivá encouraged Christians to work excellently out of love. By doing so, their work is a service to society and a fitting offering to God.
- All of creation is sanctified by the God-made-flesh: movies, boardrooms, gardens, sports are meeting points with the Father God who is near.
- Each person is free —in control of his actions— and thus responsible for his spiritual and social life. Jesus redeemed us with the free choice of love: As man, he obeyed his Father's will throughout his life of work, "unto death, even death on a cross" (Phil 2:8). Each one then directs himself with autonomy in earthly affairs towards eternal union with or separation from God, the two ultimate ends of life.
- By practicing these teachings, a Christian has no double life; he has a unity of life.
These are not statements found in an encyclopedia. They are unverifiable. They are essentially "original research" which presents the personal spiritual opinions of some editors as facts.
The old theology section used 8 different subject headings-- but these headings are completely arbitratry, chosen essentially because "That's what being a member of Opus Dei means to me". We could pick 8 completely different heading and justify them just as well. The organization and choice of topics was unverifiable-- I could ask 20 different people what Opus Dei "means" and get 20 different responses.
In contrast, the new section is brief, encyclopedic, verifiable, well-cited, and NPOV. It presents only those elements of Opus Dei theology which are attested in all reliable sources. It does not try to justify (nor criticize) the validity of Opus Dei's theology, it merely summarizes it. It does not try to persuade the reader, nor does it use flowerly "sermon-style" language. The rewrite of the theology section improves it.
And, I think a close reading will show, the other sections of the article have all been improved as well. I firmly believe outside editors, with no agenda pro- or con- OD, will agree with me. --Alecmconroy 10:33, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Request for Comment
All comments about how to create the best article on Opus Dei are most welcome. One specific question that might be useful is:
- Does this newer version of the article represent an improvement in any way over the old version?
Statement by previously involved editors
- The new rewrite is better. Nearly every sentence is not only verifiable, but is actually backed up by citation. Extra attention has been given to having a neutral, encyclopedic tone that is grounded in fact. A very brief section discussing the controversy has been created which succinctly summarized the allegations that have been made. An even longer section of praise as support has been created to rebut those criticisms. It is a better article, created neither to criticism nor to promote Opus Dei, but merely to improve Wikipedia. I sincerely believe the rewrite would need only minor changes to become a Featured Article. --Alecmconroy 07:33, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
- I reverted back to the version of Pradeshkava. Major changes are intended to be discussed initially in this talk page before implementation. I don't see any other correct line for Alec's intent than arbitration. Undoubtedly, Alec's article is more concise, referenced with more footnotes. Undoubtedly too, the previous article was adjudged neutral. It brims with reference materials and contains a plethora of analysis from world-class experts. Ran9876 12:03, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
- User has less than 50 edits over past 9 months, has only edited Catholicism-related articles. --Alecmconroy
- Lafem opposed the rewrite for the reasons discussed below.
- Congratulations Alec!!! Contributions like these, about the new version of OD article, are very wellcome by many wikireaders. You are not alone, I am agree with your changes because your editions are improving a lot this article. I would strongly support the use of the newer version too. Thank you for your encyclopediatic style.Heavyrock 21:21, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Comments by outside editors
- The new version looks a lot better. Most of the statements are properly sourced, and that's just great. But it's really hard to follow what exactly you have changed; this is why you should try to expand rewrites of this kind over at least 10 different well-explained edits. Otherwise the nature of the rewrite is not really transparent. Taxico 07:57, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
- Upon further inspection, Alecmconroy's edit seems to have been very well-intentioned. It has also improved the article's overall status (in terms of citation, concision, and avoiding original research). So I support the new version. Taxico 04:46, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
- I noticed that there is already a revert war brewing on this issue, and my first comment is: Leave up the version with 30 extra refs while it's being discussed. Strong preference should always be given to well-referenced material. If some editors feel that the cites aren't reliable or verifiable, then those could be discussed singly, or in small closely-related groups. There do seem to be some valid POV concerns here as well. Given the amount of material involved, those are probably best discussed in small sections as well. Doc Tropics 08:41, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
- I didn't look at the article until the message requesting comment on WP:AN, I have no interest in getting dragged into editing it, and I won't comment again. A neutral view: the new version is vastly superior to the old one, except for the removal of some nice pictures (unless there's copyvio issues, always keep the images, although contantly alternating them, as the old article did, is ugly - put them all on the right). Apart from that, the new version is better referenced, more balanced, and reads a lot better. So, my vote goes to the new one. Proto::type 12:41, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
- The newer version is very well referenced and verifiable, so it should be a keeper. The old version made some unsourced statements, especially in the fourth paragraph. As for the POV problems, could someone point them out so that they can be fixed? That way, you can be more specific when calling in third opinions. I'm not going to edit this article either apart from reverting vandalism. MER-C 12:58, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
- Looks much better, article is better referenced and verifiable. There was much propaganda in the old article, this is definitely much better. I didn't really bother looking at the article until Alcencomroy told me to look at it after participating at an AFD related to Opus Dei. Is there a page of their beliefs, like they cannot eat full meals and kissing the floor? My local news channel had a documentary about Opus Dei believers in my country. I don't know much about Opus Dei so I don't wish to edit the article, besides doing any vandal fighting. --Terence Ong (C | R) 14:30, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
- The referencing in the newer version is far superior. And that settles that (WP:V, you know). · j e r s y k o talk · 15:00, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
- More encyclopediatic, better referenced, shorter than the former which was longer than ideal (>30K?). Alec's version is clearly a better version for WP inclusion. If there is a dispute as to the process in which this large set of changes was made, I would like to
point outsuggest that since there seems to be a growing consensus as to the content improvement made, let's keep this version up on these grounds and settle any dispute subsequently. And I acknowledge my historical support for Alec's version which s/he alludes to elsewhere on the page. Baccyak4H (talk) 15:24, 27 November 2006 (UTC) - I much prefer the newer version. On a topic as controversial as this, point-by-point citations are invaluable. This is a good point to move forward from. -- The Anome 16:34, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
- 2nd Comment: After an in-depth review I'd like to make a much more emphatic comment. The "new" version, with its more concise layout, NPOV, and thorough sourcing is much better. Seriously. This represents a significant improvement over the less-referenced, and more-biased version of the article. I would strongly support the use of the newer version, while encouraging the participants to discuss contentious points calmly and rationally. As mentioned above, any problematic points should be addressed one at a time, on the talkpage, rather than with blanket reverts to the article itself. This represents an opportunity to make major improvements to an important article about a little-understood organization. This is obviously going to be a touchy subject for OD editors who have strong feelings on the topic, but this is a perfect example of how we can build better articles. The suggested changes not only improve the article, they bring it a lot closer to FA status; that should be a high-priority goal for any article! Doc Tropics 18:59, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
- Support New Version. I am glad to see a consensus that the Opus Dei article does not carry a NPOV. The Josemaria Escriva article is just as much a "brochure" for Opus Dei supporters as the Opus Dei article is. -- AJ24 23:58, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
- Support new version. I'm not sure which section I ought to opine in, or which category of editor I am: I've barely edited the article at all, but I attempted to give advice on encyclopedic tone during and after the latest FAC, and interacted positively with Thomas (hello, Thomas). Looking at the "old version" linked to by Alecmconroy, I see that the article had, since I last had anything to do with it, bounced back to advocacy so egregious it made me blink in disbelief. Alecmconroy has done a very good job of replacing that... hmmm, I can't think of a polite word here, forget it. It would be an embarrassment to Wikipedia to go back to a page of such low quality of the "old version", on an important topic such as Opus Dei. To the one-issue editors responsible for that version, and now, if I understand the situation, threatening to revert to it yet again, let me just say that Opus Dei benefits much, much more from having a real encyclopedia article, than from a piece of advocacy immediately recognizable as such by any reader. I've argued this point at length once, I'm not going to do it again, as the article and topic aren't, as such, really interests of mine. I feel I've spent enough time on them, and also, pessimistically, that there's something hopeless in the cycle of laborious improvement followed by, yet again, the page sinking into promotion and advocacy. As for the new version, it's not much of a compliment to say it's a lot better than the old. Even without reference to the old version, the new is an interesting and informative article IMO. It does suffer a little from "insiderism", but in the benign and I think pretty easily fixed form of taking for granted that what is well-known and obvious to Catholics is so to the world. To fix this, it needs a little more editing by the ignorant. :-) Bishonen | talk 23:56, 29 November 2006 (UTC).
- Easily the most impressive editing I have seen in all my time on Wikipedia. Fair, balanced, informed and renewed. 5 Gold Stars to Alec.Iamlondon 00:03, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Process issues
After mediation, the logical next step is arbitration. RFC is a pre-mediation step, Alecmconroy. This method is all wrong! Do not revert until you have answered my point convincingly. Pradeshkava 08:54, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
- Prad-- RFCs may be done at any point in time that we want more comments done. That our mediation was unsuccessful in no way prevents me from asking the community to take a look at this issue again now that I've implemented some of the mediatiors suggestions in my rewrite. Indeed, it's only logical for us to ask people to take a look at this, and judging by the comments so far, all uninvolved editors to date have liked the rewrite. If you feel it's inappropriate to do this RFC, you can request the Arbitration Committee to stop it perhaps, but I for one have never heard of anything prohibiting RFCS-- enlisting uninvolved editors to generate a consensus is to be encouraged, not deterred. --Alecmconroy 09:04, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
- The newer edit has already gained great approval. It takes nothing away from former editors and I fear that ego may be an issue in this. I support, as a pracising Roman Catholic, Alec's revision and expansion.Iamlondon 00:05, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
- Sorry, Alec. Your personal version was on display since May. People treated it with indifference, to say the least. Two mediators found the established article neutral. People of Good Article found it neutral and Good!
- If you want another RFC, okay. But modify the article after there is consensus. As the saying goes, let's put Wikipedia first and not our personal versions. Okay? Pradeshkava 09:11, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
- Prad, as of this writing, I, the two commentors, Baccyak4H from a while back, and the GA reviewer all think the rewrite improves the article. It's a good bet that Iamlondon and AJ are going agree. We are all experience wikipedia editors with no particular tendency toward promoting or criticizing Opus Dei. Meanwhile, the only people who disagree so far appear to be users who have an exclusive history of editing Opus Dei articles, who presumably are here exclusively to promote their organization-- the best advertising in the world. If nobody likes the rewrite, nobody has to take it, but forgive me if I don't take your word for which version is best. --Alecmconroy 09:45, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Why is this RFC here and not on its own page? William M. Connolley 10:32, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
- The instructions on WP:RFC#Request_comment_on_articles say just to put it in an different section on the article talk page.--Alecmconroy 11:16, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
I find it very disturbing that this article is being reverted continually with essentially no comment on its *content*. Revert summaries like Reverting to version of Pradeshkava. Major changes should be discussed in the talk page. The correct next step is arbitration or revert Not Wikipedia method to have rfc after mediation; after mediation, please go to arbitration; one editor cannot undo work of many supported by official mediation are not at all helpful - if there is something wrong with the new version, please discuss it here.
The aim is to discuss things here to *avoid* arbitration - not to head straight for it!
William M. Connolley 12:05, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Pure vandalism!!
We discussed the new version ad nauseam in mediation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_mediation/Opus_Dei
Don't you get it guy? Mr. Ideologue http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_mediation/Opus_Dei#Actions_and_ideology is on a rampage!! Ndss 14:24, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
- In his 247 edits since December of 2005, Ndss has never made even a single edit that did not relate to Opus Dei. He is, it would seem, merely a dedicated member who has come to Wikipedia exclusively to promote Opus Dei. --Alecmconroy 14:28, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Very Important information
Please check these out. They contain very important information: results of two mediations, comments of Good article guys.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Opus_Dei/FAQ
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_mediation/Opus_Dei
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Alecmconroy&oldid=55128870
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Good_articles/Disputes/Archive_5#Opus_Dei
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Pradeshkava (talk • contribs)
- Why exactly are these important to this discussion? All they seem to do is essentially show the former version had merit (which I've yet to see anyone deny). They do very little to illuminate the new version. The question on the table is: does it have more merit? Or not? Baccyak4H (talk) 21:00, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
- Since Prad mentions the GA dispute, people might also want to note that the GA reviewer who promoted this article before has also expressed the opinion that the rewrite was an improvement. --Alecmconroy 21:27, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Steps in dispute resolution
Check this out guys!!
Wikipedia:Dispute resolution Contents
* 1 Avoidance * 2 First step: Talk to the other parties involved * 3 Second step: Disengage for a while * 4 Further dispute resolution o 4.1 Informal mediation o 4.2 Discuss with third parties o 4.3 Conduct a survey o 4.4 Mediation * 5 Last resort: Arbitration * 6 Requesting an Advocate (at any time) * 7 See also
Hey Alec!! After step 1,2,3, 4.1, 4.2, 4.3, 4.4, what comes next? Ndss 14:40, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
- Ndss-- are you honestly suggesting it is wrong of me to Request Comments in order to build a consensus on this issue? I'll personally buy and ship you one 8 oz bottle of Coke anywhere in the world, if you can find me even one admin, out of the 1000 or so, who feels it's wrong to do an RFC in order to try and build consensus. :) --Alecmconroy 14:44, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
- Build consensus pal. Go on. BUT don't IMPOSE your pet article, pal!! Ndss 14:50, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
- There seems to be a misunderstanding here. An RfC IS how we build consensus about an article. If you review the comments to date, there is absolutely overwhelming support for the new version. This has obviously upset some of the "established" editors of this article, so let me offer a brief reminder: No one owns this article. Regardless of what your personal involvemnet with OD is, wikipedia requires you to work with other editors in building the best article possible. This is best achieved through discussion rather than reverts. If there is a particular cite that you consider unreliable, bring it to the talkpage; but don't just delete or revert material that you personally don't approve of...that way lies revert wars and blocking.
- Indeed there is mis-understanding... the DR is not a one-way process. Once you've been to Med, you aren't precluded from going back to earlier stages. What I don't see here is any evidence that Ndss, etc, are willing to discuss the "new" article, or say what is wrong with it. Trying desperately to force things into Arbcomm will *not* impress the Arbcomm, quite the reverse William M. Connolley 19:32, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
- There seems to be a misunderstanding here. An RfC IS how we build consensus about an article. If you review the comments to date, there is absolutely overwhelming support for the new version. This has obviously upset some of the "established" editors of this article, so let me offer a brief reminder: No one owns this article. Regardless of what your personal involvemnet with OD is, wikipedia requires you to work with other editors in building the best article possible. This is best achieved through discussion rather than reverts. If there is a particular cite that you consider unreliable, bring it to the talkpage; but don't just delete or revert material that you personally don't approve of...that way lies revert wars and blocking.
- Build consensus pal. Go on. BUT don't IMPOSE your pet article, pal!! Ndss 14:50, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Our GA review, CTSWyneken, was kind enough to explicitly ask the head of the Mediation Commitee about this procedural issue. You can read his full response [[1]], but to quote part of it:
- The Mediation Committee does not render decisions. The Mediation Committee does not provide binding resolution. The Mediation Committee provides voluntary, formal mediation whereby parties may come to a voluntary solution. Mediation is a process of facilitating discussion between parties in order to allow them to come to a solution that is agreeable to everyone involved; it is not intended to provide a binding resolution to any issue. (Wikipedia:Mediation, Wikipedia:Requests for mediation, Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Guide to filing a Request for Mediation, Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Common Reasons for Rejection) Formal, binding resolution can only come from the Arbitration Committee, Jimbo Wales, or the Foundation Board.
- For the Mediation Committee, Essjay (Talk) 02:27, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
So, that's good to know. --Alecmconroy 08:25, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Comments and a means to an end...
I have one comment, this seems to be out of control. What substantive difference is made from old to new article that changes that character of the article? Give me one example each to start with. Insults, childishness and mocking comments seem to be the only problem. Please don't respond to each other, just answer my question. Dominick (TALK) 16:26, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
- See above for a start. Does this answer your question? Baccyak4H (talk) 16:30, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
- ----
- I'm not entirely sure what you're looking for, or from whom, but let me take a stab at answering you question. To me, the main substantive change is one of verifiability. The old article was not only uncited in some places, it was uncitable. Let me show you what I mean.
- One of the things that keeps coming out about Opus Dei is the theme of "Work". Here is what the old article said about the importance of Work in Opus Dei:
- Since the Bible stated that man was created "to work" (Gen 2:15) and that Jesus "did all things well" (Mk 7:37), Escrivá encouraged Christians to work excellently out of love. By doing so, their work is a service to society and a fitting offering to God. "'Great' holiness consists in carrying out the 'little duties' of each moment", says Escrivá.
- Now, that paragraph has lots of problems. For one it doesn't really talk about Opus Dei at all, directly. It cites the bible to justify Opus Dei's theology, but it doesn't ever really talk about Opus Dei itself. It quote Escriva, but it quotes him in a poetic, flowery way, without getting to the heart of Opus Dei itself. And how can I possibly find a cite to prove that "work is a fitting offering to God"? Whether work is a fitting offering to God isn't verifiable.
- There's nothing wrong with the basic idea of telling our readers how important "Work" is to Opus Dei. We just need to do it in a way that complies with WP:Verifiability. This is how the new version addressed "Work":
- Similarly, Opus Dei stresses the importance of work.[1] Opus Dei places a great value on industriousness, diligence, and hard work.[2] Where some religious orders might encourage their members to withdraw from the material world, Opus Dei's members take an active role in careers or charitable works.[3] Opus Dei teaches that work is "a path to holiness"[4], and its founder famously advised members to "Sanctify your work. Sanctify yourself in your work. Sanctify others through your work."[5]
- This accomplishes all the same basic goals as the original text, but it does so in a way where every single sentence is provable, verifiable, encyclopedic, and cited. Escriva is quoted in the new text as well, but it's a more famous quote and one that gets to the heart of the matter. The new text is "about" Opus Dei's theology, rather than "justifying" Opus Dei's theology. It conveys the same basic information, but in the new version, someone can say "Well.. prove it" and I can give them a reference that proves it. The new rewrite isn't trying to "criticize" Opus Dei in any way whatsoever, it just does a somewhat better job of presenting the same basic information that was found in the old article, but it does it in a way that's completely verifiable and easier for a lay audience to understand.
- I hope this comparison helps you and all the commentors out there.
- --Alecmconroy 16:51, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
- Look at the differnce between those two versions: The first is, as stated, both uncited and almost certainly unverifiable; also, the prose reads like an OD pamphlet. In contrast, the second version has FIVE cites and is written in a totally NPOV fashion. This is exactly what we should be striving for in any article! Doc Tropics 19:26, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
- It doesn't seem that specific facts have been disputed, at least yet. What has been disputed is the wholescale revamping of an article with previous GA status. That is understandable. Yet there is strong and still growing consensus that the new article, notwithstanding the means of its inception, is an improvement. The dispute at this point is a procedural one, so there is not really a ground to find the middle of. Obviously, if you see a factual error, you can be bold, although in principle I would suggest freezing the content as much as possible until the procedural dispute is resolved (say, you could bring it up here, or put in an editor's comment). Baccyak4H (talk) 14:24, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks and further minor improvements
I'd like to thank everyone who commented today for all their help! I sincerely appreciate it. Thanks also to all the original editors who worked so hard to create the pre-rewrite page: ultimately, you did all the hard work of actually writing the article, I just did some final pre-FAC polishing of Tone and Verifiability.
I expect there's still some objections left to be aired and discussed, but given the overwhelmingly positive response the RFC received, I think it's not unrealistic to slowly begin looking at FAC. IF the rewrite becomes stable, I think there's an excellent chance of us all getting a Wikipedia Featured Article on Opus Dei-- which would be wonderful for everybody.
To that end: is there a better picture of Pope John Paul II? Currently we're using this one, but its from 1997-- I'd rather have one of him circa 1982, when he made Opus Dei a personal prelature. Something like this, only something we can use, copyright-wise.
Similarly, if anyone wants to help tackle bringing the cites into proper format, you are MOST welcome to do so-- there are still PLENTLY left. :)
Again, thanks everyone. --Alecmconroy 22:05, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Mediation resolution: non-equal validity
Hi everyone. Thanks so much for your help and contribution. :)
As we discussed at mediation, I think the main problem that the mediator Wisden17 saw in Alec's proposal is that it does not follow the non-equal validity clause of Wikipedia:NPOV, which gives more space to "prominent sources."
He also said that "the body of evidence is against" the proposed equal treatment of the two sides of the controversy.
I copy here below what the article's Q&A did to summarize the body of evidence:
- John Allen's book on Opus Dei has been hailed by the press, professional reviewers, and the public (3 Ps). Martha Teichner of CBS, a four time Emmy Awardee, stated that the book of Allen "is widely considered as the definitive book about Opus Dei." [2] Professional reviewers routinely call Allen, a "respected" journalist and praised his book: [3]. Here is the public's assessment: [4]. Thus the POV held by Messori, Introvigne, Wilson, Thierry, John Paul II, Benedict XVI, etc which coincides with Allen is established as the majority POV for this article.
Aside from non-equal validity, there are other points that go against the proposal: it does not take a deep, analytical, encyclopedic treatment of the roots of the controversy, the theology of Opus Dei and its practices.
Since I lack time now, I am going to stop here, although indeed there are other points for disagreement. I do intend to bring the issue up to arbitration, since to my mind the crux of the matter is an understanding of Wikipedia policies, and arbcom is the right body to determine the rightness or wrongness of our application of them.
Thanks again for everyone's collaboration. I agree with the suggestion that we tackle this issue with calm and peace. :) Thomas 03:15, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
- I agree with Thomas. These recent changes are being put through in the teeth of the result of mediation, and the effective appeal is to arbitation. I think also that if applying "verifiability" leads one to disallow well known quotations from the Bible, as in the example given by Alec, it must be an idiosyncratic concept of verifiability. Anonimus 17:59, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
- If you read Alec's entire discussions above closely and with good faith, you will see you have misrepresented (at least) 5/6 of his changes' motivation, and 6/6 of his concept of verifiability. That said, I think no one denies there is a procedural dispute here. In the meantime, why don't you answer above in the RfC section as has been requested? Baccyak4H (talk) 18:21, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
- Using the Bible as a reliable source in articles is actually a rather complex issue. While verses can certainly be cited to indicate support for (or origins of) various belief systems, using the Bible as a source for almost anything else, especially historical matters, is questionable; preference would always be given to more scholarly sources. Doc Tropics 18:10, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
- But we have been through all this. Alec objects to statements such as "Christians are called to holiness" as being unverifiable. This boils down to the question of the validity of expertise (or "technical knowledge") in theology: in fact this statement can easily be arrived at through very simple theology, e.g. via one or more New Testament quotations.
- The main point is that the statement is clearly verifiable unless atheism is implicitly adopted as the measure of all belief systems.
- I don't think an atheistic standpoint is necessary in an encyclopedia. It could be chosen if the Wiki community decided. In that case everyone would be aware that Wikipedia was an encyclopedia where the rules were skewed against religion and would discount it accordingly. Anyway, it is not the present situation.
- Having an atheistic standpoint dominate and be allowed to stand in judgment, as it were, in an article on an entity that is essentially religious, is not neutral: it amounts to a strong anti-religious position, as it disallows all theological statements as being POV. It's a non-too-veiled attack.
- I have written about this before in the discussion thread, and in mediation.
- Anonimus 18:27, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
- Ummm, perhaps I'm misinterpreting what you just said, but making a claim that "Christians are called to holiness", then citing Bible verses to "prove" your point, sounds a lot like original research. Drawing such conclusions exceeds the scope of an encyclopedia. Also, I'm not aware that any editor has ever suggested that wikipedia should adopt, "an atheistic standpoint". This appears to be a Straw man argument. Doc Tropics 18:37, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, atheism is indeed a complete strawman. There is a subtle but crucial distinction between "Christians are called to holiness" and "Christians believe they are called to holiness". Admittedly there is some room for semantic hair splitting with the meaning of "called", so a better example would be his own, "work is a fitting offering to God" vs. (say) "Christians believe work is a fitting offering to God". Certainly Scripture can be used to reference a statement of a belief system without being OR, but the whole construction has to make logical sense. Baccyak4H (talk) 18:53, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
- But rather than split hairs, why don't you add a source (or have one on hand) that not only reports OD's attitudes toward work (we already have those) but rather documents the motivation as coming from Scripture? If indeed that is the case, I cannot imagine that would be difficult at all. Baccyak4H (talk) 18:57, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
- There are many such possible quotes, and Alec rejected the one in the piece because s/he regards theology as POV. That is the point at issue.
- I have not made any edits because, as I said, the entire philosophy of the piece as changed is biased. I made the point about smuggled-in atheism at an earlier stage, and if I misrepresented Alec at the time he did not say so. In fact he defended his position by calling it "non-theism" rather than "atheism". (All this is verifiable.) Non-theism in the field of religion equates to an atheistic POV.
- Is it not obvious what is happening here? According to Baccyak, nobody is claiming that the orginal article was bad. But if 100+ edits are made in the course of 48 hours, which completely change the piece and make it rather like an option that was rejected during mediation five months ago, is it not blindingly clear that little respect is being shown for Wikipedia and the mediation in question? That is why I would support a move to the next stage, i.e., arbitration.
- Anonimus 22:29, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
- The quote he rejected did not document the motivation as coming from Scripture, which is what I asked for. (Thus you have not answered my offer, which still stands.) It could easily be read as asserting Scripture. Use-mention again. Please understand this. Alec does; s/he doesn't want to "use" a POV. But has "mentioned" many.
- I will let others speak for themselves. But neither you, I or any others are in the field of religion when we are here. We are in the field of Wikipedia. In this field, non-theism, in conjunction with non-atheism, is neutrality. But again, we can mention both, and others if appropriate.
- "Bad" and "able to be significantly improved" need not be synonymous, and for these purposes are not. I had expressed the latter on 08 Sept 2006 in the talk archive, without any knowledge of Alec's work. And many others have expressed same above in RfC response. There is full agreement to date that I can see on five of the six goals Alec claimed very clearly. On the sixth (NPOV) there is a lack of consensus (ironically) on this page. The previous POV decision should carry the day with regards to the issue of the non-equal validity concept of neutrality. So what is happening is indeed obvious. A vast potential for improvement is being sacrificed to maintain what was deemed a neutral POV with regards to non-equal validity. Most of the improvement of this article has already been worked out, at the expense of a certified NPOV vis-a-vis validity. NPOV is an essential goal of any article. But the ultimate goal is to make the best article, which includes by necessity NPOV. It would seem much easier to rework the POV here than rewriting for encyc. tone, digging up refs, reorganizing sections, changing language to declarative, etc, that Alec as already done. So no, it is not blindingly clear, or even vague. Baccyak4H (talk) 04:40, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
- This 'non-theism' may be neutral when writing an article about, say, the Paris Metro, or Sonata Form. But in a piece related to religion it equates to atheism. Why? Because one adopts a sceptical tone as if 'from outside' in a way that one would not if writing about the Paris Metro, where things are allowed 'to be' rather than 'held by believers to be'. This is an implied downgrading of religion. It is therefore an anti-religious philosophy, and is no more neutral than any other philosophy or ideology. As I noted earlier, Wikipedia could adopt this philosophy, but it has not done so so far, and it is misleading to imply that an entry need adopt the line proposed by Alec.
- This point was covered in Mediation, although at the time it wasn't the main issue. Alec and I agreed to differ; and it is not just a question of style: it's an atheistic tone. I think Doc Tropic's comment above, which was softened by Baccyak a couple of paragraphs later (on Scripture being used to reference a belief), reflects that philosophy honestly. Those biblical quotes were edited out because the philosophy of the new entry discounts Scripture as a worthwhile source. It is actually an anti-religious position.
- Anonimus 16:37, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
- My understanding is they were edited out because a purported fact that they motivated a particular belief, tenet or set of actions, etc., was not sourced. Without that the quotes become irrelevant to the article as written that way (I encourage the original rewriter to correct me if I am wrong). I fully encourage you and others to bring to this page any sourced claims of certain spiritual writings motivating a particular aspect. Baccyak4H (talk) 16:51, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
- I see Alec hasn't yet commented on the point two paragraphs above, but I think there is more ideology behind the re-writing of this entry than Baccyak realises. So I would ask Alec here to correct me if the following statement is inaccurate:
- Alec's position, as expressed earlier in the discussion threads, is that religion and morality, not being verifiable, are areas where there are no experts, just opinions. Thus theology is a matter of opinion, in contrast to, say, the sciences, which are areas where genuine expertise exists. And therefore, in order to avoid promoting opinions (POV), the article should avoid theology, hence too, Scripture.
- If accurate, I would dispute these concepts of verifiability and expertise, as well as the conclusion drawn from the premises. The very philosophy, or framework if you prefer, is hostile to theology, and to institutions whose identity or actions have their foundation in theology.
- Minor edits to the new article and line by line discussion would thus miss the point: the broader question needs to be tackled, otherwise the anti-religious philosophy sets the ground rules for future edits and maybe other entries too. If one ground rule is that you cut out theology (but not other disciplines), life can be made very difficult for the apologist.
- Anonimus 12:40, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
- What s/he said earlier really isn't important. If s/he says something now that is equivalent to asserting a theologic POV, or an atheistic POV (or any other), it is inappropriate. Done deal. If anything is described with respect to any POV, or described given that one holds a POV, in itself that is OK (balance etc issues still hold, but another day...).
- And to avoid the fallacy of confounding day-to-day logistics and having a life outside of WP with the arbitrary and arguably disingenuous demands of WP editors, I will ask that Alec now correct me if my description is inaccurate. Thus silence now leads to an entailment paradox and we are forced to conclude Alec has supported neither position in any way. If s/he does chime in, well we shall find out otherwise.
- But please recognize that any ideology can exist simultaneously in any antecedant of Modus_ponens. The reader is left to decide whether to affirm or not, and any affirmation is possible. There is no suggestion toward any particular decision is implied. Only the tools are elucidated. That is a goal of NPOV in WP. Baccyak4H (Yak!) 05:25, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
- Anonimous-- you're sort of confusing a bunch of different things I said about different subjects and squishing them all into a analgamous, and taking them more as some sort of world philosophy rather than what they actually were-- commentary on this article.
- In all the stuff that I said that I see you referencing above, I've been trying to get at the idea that the article must be verifiable and in encyclopedic tone. So, for example, the statement "Christians are called to holiness" is absolutely and completely unverifiable, as the term "verifiable" is used by Wikipedia. Now, I've been accused of "atheism POV PUSHING" for saying that, which is wrong on so many levels I don't know where to start. I get the feeling that Anonimous et al think I'm making some sort of major theological argument-- something like weak atheism or mysterianism or something. Trying to say in essence that God is unknowable even in principle.
- But I'm totally not trying to say anything like that. When I say "Christians are called to holiness" is unverifiable, I'm not making a large theological comment, all I mean to say is that the sentence does not comply with WP:V. That doesn't mean it's false, that doesn't mean we as humans can never know if that is true, it just means it's not in compliance with WP:V. The sentence "Christians are not called to holiness" would ALSO not comply with WP:V.
- Instead, WP:V requires us to say things more like "Christians believe they are called to holiness". That's all I'm saying. --Alecmconroy 06:54, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
- I am grateful for Alec's explanation as to the scope of those comments. By the way, I did not mean to imply anything outside Wikipedia. I think this particular edit shows fair-mindedness on its own terms, i.e., in spite of the principles, which I disagree with. I think, though, that it is more superficial than what was there before, and the procedure used for the wholesale changes makes me uneasy.
- My opposition on principle is to an interpretation of verifiability that leads to something that we can know is true being considered unverifiable. I don't think that is is a reasonable result, I don't think that Wikipedia intends that result, and I don't agree that an entry need or indeed should take the line that Alec proposes.
- The question of mode of speech is reasonable on the "executive" level, but that is only the application in language to a prior question of what *is* in real life - it's not just a question of use/mention or modus ponens, but of a hidden reductionism in the view of reality being promoted by that use of language. I view this reductionism as toxic to religion, because when detailing a religious subject, more weight is given to the "verifiable" perspective of the social sciences (for instance), than to the "POV" perspective of its own category, theology - which leads to superficiality at best, if not a systematic scepticism. But I have repeated this in different ways several times now. Maybe my question lies on the "judicial" level.
- Anonimus 16:37, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
- Actually, and only with respect to the sentence you quoted ("Christians are called to holiness"), one could plausibly argue that this is verifiable (thus to agree, with qualifications, to your verifiability objection), due to differing interpretations of the word "called". One could say that a particular Scripture verse, Apostolic Exhortation, etc. says that explicitly, if it was actually written as such. One should be very hesitant to try this, as the language would need to be very clear that that indeed is a calling, and it is indeed to holiness—otherwise it would approach OR; additionally the intermediate logical step "Christians look to source X for inspiration" is not explicit, and one could protest that implicitness. But in principle it should be possible to to make statements like that and source them. But it would need to be done carefully—the previous version failed to do so many times. Baccyak4H (Yak!) 17:55, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Burden of proof and reversion
Nobody --not even one-- has been able to counter the non-equal validity clause, and the "body of evidence." Those accusing the old article of non-neutrality carry the burden of proof. If anyone thinks that Wisden17 was incorrect, prove it. Prove whether Walsh, Tapia, Hutchinson, Kung are more prominent than John Allen, Jr., Vittorio Messori, Massimo Introvigne, Benedict XVI, John Paul II. In the absence of such proof, I can only agree with Anonimus: it is blindingly clear that little respect is being shown for Wikipedia, and therefore the radical change is a form of vandalism and should be reverted.
Isn't it funnny that Opus Dei is referred to as cult in a subsection, while the personal prelature subsection was removed? Isn't it strange that one of the most referenced word, if not the most, is Hitler? And Mr. Conroy wants us to believe he does not have anything against Opus Dei? I assume good faith, but I am not naive.
Given a respectable time limit, I will revert Mr. Conroy's "50-50" version unless somebody submits convincing proof that outmatches the prestige of John Allen, Jr. et al. And please do not bring me the latest CNN, ABC, Time, Newsweek coverage on Opus Dei, for they give the pro-Opus line a clear majority. Lafem 01:26, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
- See above about the respect accusation. How is the resectioning funny? There may be other ways to skin this cat, but note 1) the cult related accusations are particular to OD, the status of being a prelature (and subsequent details of prelatureness) is (in principle) not. 2) there is no fork mentioned for the cult allegations themselves (there is general "Opposition" however); there is a wikilink to Prelature (ironically, there is a wikilinked "response to cult allegations", which is quite absurd given the allegations' page's absence). So anyone wanting to research the allegations will effectively need to see what's here; not so for Prelatures. Seems a very natural (though certainly not unique) division. Re Hitler, Carl Sagan once said "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." Here "claims" can be "people think OD is associated" as much, or even more than "OD is associated" (Use-mention again). Although the corollary is of course that the sources need to be good ones; here their quality varies greatly and perhaps half can safely, even approvingly, be removed.
- Lastly, thanks for your patience; I encourage you to rather bring this version up to speed with respect to reflecting JA et al's prestige. That is a much shorter route to a suberb article rather than one which is merely "not bad" ;). Better yet, propose improvements here, say paragraph by paragraph. And why not bring the latest mainstream coverage? It's relevant and notable and including edits reflecting them would tend to help, not hinder, the article converge towards NPOV vis-a-vis nonequal validity (which seems the sole objection to this version), whatever it may be. Baccyak4H (talk) 04:40, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
- Mr. BaccyakH. Opus Dei is the sole personal prelature of the Catholic Church at this moment. It is particular to Opus Dei. The cult accusation is not particular to Opus Dei. YWCA and multilevel marketing are accused of such but the world cult does not appear in their articles, much less does it appear in the form of a subsection.
- NPOV is not vis-a-vis nonequal validity, Mr. BaccyakH. Non-equal validity is the meaning of NPOV. "All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing views fairly, proportionately and without bias." "NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a verifiable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each."
- Verifiability means: "1. Articles should contain only material that has been published by reliable sources. 2. Editors adding new material to an article should cite a reliable source, or it may be challenged or removed by any editor. 3. The obligation to provide a reliable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not on those seeking to remove it."
- All the material in the spiritual teaching section of the former article are cited, taken from Holiness in the World and the writings of Escriva. They are not original materials. They are verifiable, because they are citations from a reliable source, a book written by luminary theologians, e.g. Ratzinger, William May, Fernando Ocariz.
- You do not seem know your Wikipedia policy, Mr. BaccyakH. You do not seem know Opus Dei either. Mr. Conroy is in the same boat, I presume.
- I will be patient. Thank you. But the clock is ticking. And I am waiting for proof. Without it, I revert to the old version deemed by outsiders to be a Good Article. The present one is not a Good Article. Lafem 08:43, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
- Again thanks again for your patience. A few points.
- You are comparing apples and oranges. OD has the status of being a Prelature, and of having cult allegations made against it. The former is currently unique, the latter, as you point out, is not. Thus there can be, and are, particular instances of cult allegations which are completely immaterial to this article, since they pertain to other targets. So to cover that issue, the only plausible option is to cover (to an appropriate extent of course, but another that's another thing altogether) the allegations specific to OD. But if there is no other Prelature currently, there is nothing about prelatureness that is demonstrably unique to OD in the sense of another Prelature being different from it in this particular way. Thus in principle the main Prelature article is all one needs. This is not to imply another organizational scheme is impossible—far from it, but only that this one is indeed defensible. Why don't you bring some allegation material to this page, or propose some Prelature detail (as per above I would not recommend a lot) and let's rework them?
- I am puzzled as to how you can say that is "the" (my emphasis) meaning of NPOV. Nonequal validity is an attribute that a collection of at least two sources can have, or not. NPOV includes always reflecting this presence or absence. Your second quoted policy sentence summarized that well, and the first refers to it with "proportionately". The first also mentioned however, "fairness" and "bias" which can in addition refer to e.g., tone, independently of any source proportion. And I do understand verifiability just as you quoted.
- The verifiability of the previous content is itself not the issue. What needed to be verified is that this particular facet of OD was motivated by this particular spiritual writing. Without rereading the original I actually would assume that it indeed sometimes did happen. But it sometimes did not (Alec's example, and I recall it often did not, but I trust Alec's very clear exposition over my memory, at this time). It is these relationships, the motivations in this case, that needed documenting. Alec has done that. At the risk of being redundant, I rerefer to the crucial distinction again, although I point out it seems necessary at this time.
- While I know far more about WP than you give me credit for, if you wish to accuse me of failing to be wikiomniscient, OK I'm guilty as charged. And I do indeed know very little about OD, nor do I have any need to here. Although I am of the opinion that if John Paul II deemed it of high esteem, it probably is of high esteem.
- Lastly, you are certainly entitled to your opinion as to the article being good or not, even if you don't make clear that is indeed your opinion (we can all agree it's not perfect). I took the liberty of moving what I took as your RfC response to what I thought a more appropriate section; I hope you don't object—it was in good faith. But I would ask you again to refrain from reverting, and rather concentrate on bring specific disputed stuff in here to discuss, as your opinion on the article taken as a whole is currently a small minority. Baccyak4H (talk) 16:10, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
- I agree with Lafem. Things have come to a pretty pass when one can attempt what really amounts to a coup (by analogy only, obviously) and then complain at charges of 'vandalism'.
- Anonimus 16:42, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
- posted to User_talk:Alecmconroy:
- Mr. Conroy. I plan to revert to the old version until you have provided proof as stated here. Lafem 09:10, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
- There are two issues here, a behavior one and a content one. I'll talk about the behavior issue first. You threaten to revert the article-- that is your choice if you decide to do so. There is an overwhelming consensus for the rewrite (11 out of 11 outside editors in the RFC supported the rewrite). Given the degree of support, I would regard such a revert as vandalism, as I think would most of the editors involved. If you would like to try to convince the community or the Arbitration Comittee that a revert should take place, you are free to do so. If you would like to simply revert it back against consensus without having convinced anyone, that you will not be permitted to do.
- As to the content issue itself-- I strongly feel that the rewrite is a major improvment in terms of tone, verifiability, and citatations. It really all comes down to the difference between "Christians are called to holiness" and "Christians believe they are called to holiness". As we know, I've spent many many words trying to explain why one is acceptable while the other is not. I don't think there's anything else I could say to you on that subject. You could reread WP:V, or perhaps you could post to the talk pages of some of the editors who offered outside comments and maybe they could say something to you that I haven't. --Alecmconroy 09:31, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
- Can we all please all refrain from throwing vandalism accusations around, please? The rewrite was just *bold* and the preponderance of feedback supports this and refutes vandalism overwhelmingly. Any reversion at this point cannot be considered vandalism simply on account of the previous mediation; a far more defendible accusation might be wikilawyering but that's far from vandalism. Thank you, all. Baccyak4H (talk) 15:05, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
- Well, I think a revert, without a consensus would border on vandalism given the overwhelming support it's gotten. All the talk about the mediator last summer 'ruling' against a rewrite that happened this week is misleading on so many levels. Mediators don't 'rule' in the first place, and those ruling certainly aren't binding in any way-- mediatiors just try to help two people resolve their differences-- something it became pretty clear wasn't going to happen. If someone wants a definitive binding ruling that can trump community consensus, they need to be filing a Request for Arbitration. --Alecmconroy 15:13, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
- Can we all please all refrain from throwing vandalism accusations around, please? The rewrite was just *bold* and the preponderance of feedback supports this and refutes vandalism overwhelmingly. Any reversion at this point cannot be considered vandalism simply on account of the previous mediation; a far more defendible accusation might be wikilawyering but that's far from vandalism. Thank you, all. Baccyak4H (talk) 15:05, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
- As to the content issue itself-- I strongly feel that the rewrite is a major improvment in terms of tone, verifiability, and citatations. It really all comes down to the difference between "Christians are called to holiness" and "Christians believe they are called to holiness". As we know, I've spent many many words trying to explain why one is acceptable while the other is not. I don't think there's anything else I could say to you on that subject. You could reread WP:V, or perhaps you could post to the talk pages of some of the editors who offered outside comments and maybe they could say something to you that I haven't. --Alecmconroy 09:31, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I would urge strongly against any blanket reverts at this point. While it's clear that certain editors are disgrunteld by recent changes, it's also clear the there is overwhelming positive support for the changes, for a number of valid reasons that have been explained in-depth elsewhere on this page. I would also suggest that after this "improved" version is discussed and polished a bit, it should be re-submitted for reivew and grading. It appears to me that there has been a significant overall improvement in quality, and I suspect outside editors would agree. FA staus for this article might actually be possible with a bit more work. Doc Tropics 17:20, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
- I agree with Lafem. I do not buy the reasons given for the blanket change just taken place.
- Anonimus 17:35, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Discussion of Old-vs-New
Discussion in response to Talk:Opus_Dei#Problems_with_the_old_version_of_the_article
- (regarding Citations) Wikipedia:Verifiability means: "1. Articles should contain only material that has been published by reliable sources. 2. Editors adding new material to an article should cite a reliable source, or it may be challenged or removed by any editor. 3. The obligation to provide a reliable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not on those seeking to remove it." All the material in the spiritual teaching section of the former article are cited, taken from Holiness in the World and the writings of Escriva. They are not original materials. They are verifiable, because they are citations from a reliable source, a book written by luminary theologians, e.g. Ratzinger, William May, Fernando Ocariz. Lafem 09:16, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
- (regarding balance) See Thomas's Mediation Resolution:Non-equal validity below. Lafem 09:16, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
- (regarding controvesy) Possibly the longest section in the old article was Reception History and Controversy. Lafem 09:16, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
- (regarding Tone) This is only your opinion, Mr. Conroy. A Lutheran Pastor at GA didn't think so. Lafem 09:16, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
- (regarding Brevity) The numerous criticism demanded appropriate length from experts to elucidate. Lafem 09:16, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
- (regarding organization) This is only your opinion, Mr. Conroy. A Lutheran Pastor at GA didn't think so. Lafem 09:16, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
- My only main comment is to point you to this discussion. CTSWyneken, the GA reviewer, was one of the people I consulted before deciding to go forward with the rewrite-- he was shown the rewrite and found it was not only a Good Article, but in fact, a better article that the old one. --Alecmconroy 09:47, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Disputed References
Disputed
These references are not acceptable, some are blogs, some are unsourced articles, and some are oped pieces. I found a few that could be used. Does anyone else feel this way? Dominick (TALK) 12:43, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
- I see it in approximately the opposite way. It seems most refs should be beyond dispute. Perhaps 20% or so might have caveats. I am looking at the entire list—might you be looking at a particular subset? Baccyak4H (talk) 14:29, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
- I dont understand that statement. Wikipedia is particular about references. Journal articles and primary sources sit at the top. Disallowed are Opinion pieces, most blogs, and blog like sources. I think a lot of these are blogs or blog like, and a few are op-ed pieces about the Da Vince code. The ODAN critique website should be included but it seems the accusations it makes are given much more weight, and it should not be so heavily used in the Opus Dei article. Some of the sources are particular flights of fancy, like the morification section. I don't know one Opus Dei member who practices flaggelation or cuts themself. There is a simple way to prove this, and that would be to find a Opus Dei article detailing how to practice physical self mortification. I don't see that. Dominick (TALK) 14:48, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
- You don't have to know any. You, as a "source", is not acceptable. But three of the sources in that section are beyond dispute (for relevance, not necessarily accuracy). So it seems a better course would be to remove the dubious tags from ODAN's links (as you seem to be objecting to the amount of coverage their views are getting, not that it is inappropriate to do at all; you have a good case I would think), and rather put them on the truly questionable sources. Perhaps replace the worst cites with a fact tag.
- But it seems you are missing the point of the rewrite completely. It is (as in: has been deemed to be by every public comment in answer to a call for them) an improvement. A step towards the perfect article. No not the final step, but we mustn't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Before we pull out the fine toothed combs to continue improvement, please chime in above with your overall assessment. Baccyak4H (talk) 16:14, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
- Just on the mortification issue-- that OD numeraries use the discipline (whip) and the cilice is actually one of the things that actually isn't in dispute. It's well-documented, non-controversial fact. It's just something they do to be closer to God, and it has a very long history. Now, what is controversial is saying that this practice is somehow "bad". Making a negative value judgment about free adults of sound mind voluntarily choosing to perform such actions as a way to achieve closeness with God. That is a opinion-- the mention of which is limited to just two short sentences in the article.
- I don't think there are any real facts in dispute in the rewrite. Maybe I'm wrong on that, but I don't think we are saying any new facts that weren't in the old version-- it's basically the same factual content as in the old article, just rewritten for purposes of verifiability, encyclopedia tone, organization, and citation. --Alecmconroy 13:26, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
On Sources
First off, Dominick and others-- thanks so much for going through and looking at all the sources. If we're going to get to FAC, more eyeballs are always a good thing. I'll get right on trying to find better sources for the ones that were marked dubious.
For sentences that were completely and utterly non-controversial facts, I was content to cite pretty much anything. So for example I cited an oped piece to justify Opus Dei has a "focus on the lives of average Catholics". Basically, I just threw it up so that people could see it wasn't original research. I think that's probably good enough, but if we want to find an even better source that to says the same thing, it will only make the article better, and I'll work on finding even better cites right now. :)
If you could, I would ask that you not remove the cites outright unless it's so unrelated that it looks like a mistake or something. A 'suboptimal' cite is better than nothin'-- it shows it's not OR, for example. But if you add the "citation needed" tag, I or others can go through and try to find an even better one. :)
Also, important is when you change a "named" citation-- it means that somewhere else in the article, that same cite is used elsewhere, so if you just delete it outright, the other places it's cited will turn into broken cites. Instead, if you want to remove the first instance of a named citation, cut and paste it to where i'ts used the second time in an article-- then everything will work. --Alecmconroy 00:50, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
What's "Portillo 1996"?
Does anyone know in what work Portillo calls the hitler allegations a "patent falsehood" & "slanderous campaign"? It's an awesome quote-- I took it from Opus Dei and politics, but that article only cites it as "(del Portillo 1996, p. 22-25)"-- a full listing isn't in the bibliography. Obviously, I could go look through his writings and make a guess, but it's be better to know for sure. --Alecmconroy 02:34, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
- Found it. The full citation was in a May 2005 old version of this article. --Alecmconroy 02:46, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Bryan Wilson, Apostates and New Religious Movements?
Does anyone know what journal or whatever Wilson's 1994 paper "Apostates and New Religious Movements" was published in? The online version doesn't say, and googlesearching hasn't turned it up. --Alecmconroy 08:13, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Opus Dei as Sign of Contradiction source?
Anyone know of a better source that refers to Opus Dei as a Sign of Contradiction? There are a few "OpEd"-ish pieces that use that reference, but we could use a better one. I see in Sign of contradiction that the Archbishop of Westminister made such a statement, does anyone have a source documenting that? --Alecmconroy 08:49, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
GA Status
This article has been listed as a good article and I see no reason based on Good Article Criteria to delist it. If someone dissagrees with my take on this, please bring the article to the project's attention at: Wikipedia:Good articles/Review. Thanks! --CTSWyneken(talk) 13:10, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Neutrality Flag
There is a Neutrality flag on this article, but I see no attempt made to justify it on this talk page, nor do I see bias in the article itself. If there is no objection, I will remove the flag. If there is, please copy the text that is believed to be slanted to this page for discussion. Thanks! --CTSWyneken(talk) 13:12, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
- Much of the mortification is pretty overblown. It isn't like members of Opus Dei walk around bleeding like the Movie. Too much weight is given to crtics of Opus Dei. Dominick (TALK) 13:15, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
- But Dominick-- I believe every word in the mortification section is verifiable and indeed, verified. We explicitly say bleeding does not occur, we explicitly talk about what a load of psychotic lunacy the Da Vinci code is. The criticm is kept exceptionally brief, and sentence for sentence, there's less of in than was in the old article. Which sentences do you feel are untrue/violate NPOV? --Alecmconroy 13:27, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
- While these may not be a problem in terms of POV, it is probably too detailed for an FA. Perhaps an article on mortification might be created, or, if it exists, have the detail here moved to it. Here it is probably enough to have one paragraph stating that OD advocates optional, moderate forms of mortification and why. --CTSWyneken(talk) 14:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
- I object to any removal of the neutrality flag-- on the basis of Wisden17's Mediation Ruling. The present version violates NPOV's non-equal validity. It uses a word to avoid (cult), and used it as section title. The whole section is POV fork. R Davidson 14:35, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, CTSWyneken! Am very glad to see you helping to look into this article, since you gave a nod to the GA status of the previous version.
As to the mediation resolution which emphasized non-equal validity, kindly read this post I made here.
As to what my friend, R Davidson wrote, I think you can find the section title with the word "cult" in section 6.3.1 of the present article. We had a long discussion on the advisability of a response section here at mediation. here please There you will find the link to the mediation discussions.
Thank you for taking time to read these. I think they will be helpful in the ongoing discussion. Thanks! :) Thomas 06:46, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
- That would without a doubt be acceptable and indeed preferable if that term could not be verified to have been used in any of the critiques (i.e., its inclusion is OR). If it was used, there probably is no escaping using it somewhere, but where depends on the degree, context, etc. Baccyak4H (Yak!) 04:56, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
- My inclination would be to leave it in. We use the "c word" very sparingly and we always mention it as merely an allegation. But it is a valid part of the discourse, and almost all the news stories about Opus Dei controversies mention the cult accusations. A google search for pages containing both "opus dei" and the word "cult" yields some 140,000! So while it might not be a true accusation, it is notheless a very major portion of the debate. --Alecmconroy 06:41, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
- If it truly the only issue that prevents removal of the neutrality flag, then perhaps you should just remove the word from the heading. As you all have done in the lead, anytime you use the word, refer to the critics of the organization, use qualifying phrases such as "According to ____," critics "charge that" or quote someone directly with proper citation. Does that make sense? Can we do that for the sake of moving on? --CTSWyneken(talk) 15:05, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Regarding Escriva's self-mortification
Regarding Escriva's self-mortification, I don't want to go into it in any detail in the Opus Dei article (as you say, that's for the Josemaria Escriva article itself), but it should at least be mentioned in the Opus Dei article, not least because he originated the practice and serves as a role model for the movement. I'll also defend the word "vigorous": Opus Dei does not, AFAIK, require its members to flagellate themselves to the same degree as their founder. -- The Anome 13:48, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
- Well, I reverted your additonal mortification material about Escriva's practice of it is because we really don't want to make too much out of this mortification thing. If you ask the members of Opus Dei, it's a very small part of what they do. We have to mention it, and explain it, but we needn't dwell on it. Yes, it's true Escriva himself practiced it, but so have many people, and we should keep our focus, as much as possible, strictly on Opus Dei itself. There's also the fact that descriptions of Escriva's practice of mortification very quickly run towards the lurid, and he practiced it so intensely, in ways normal numeraries do not, that I think it would be almost misleading or "prejudicial" to go into it. Obviously, there's nothing stopping the Escriva article from going into it, but I think it might be a tad much to get into. That's my take anyway. To get to FAC, we need an ULTRA-TIGHT focus, trying not to go into excessive detail, but leaving that to the subarticles. --Alecmconroy 14:01, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Good Article Review
A Good Article review has been opened on this article, concerning the use of the word "cult" in a section which supposedly is POV forked from somewhere else. Homestarmy 15:29, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
What happened with the article Opus Dei: Bibliography (today recursive to Opus Dei)?
As far as I remember it contained an extensive collection of references and literature. Is this all gone? --Túrelio 19:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
- Apparently it was deleted by an admin a few months ago, his reasoning was posted here. I myself didn't have any strong objection to the bibliography, but I guess a case could be made for invoking Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. If you can talk the admin into undeleting it, I have no problem with its being reinstated. --Alecmconroy 19:47, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Intro copyedited
I have attempted to edit the Intro to make it more cohesive and less repetitious. I realize that the way it was may have been a compromise resulting from various embattled positions, and if so, I guess it had better just be reverted. It wasn't very pretty, though, or reader-friendly. I'm not sure I understood the bit about about OD being " currently the only organization to have ever been made into a personal prelature", it seemed stranger the more I looked at it. Please fact-check my version altogether.
More needs doing, certainly. Mentioning the name OD 17 times in a brief intro is ...inelegant, for instance. I managed to get it down to 10, which is still rather a lot.
A rhetorical point: the very end of the intro is an extremely emphatic place. OD has indeed received much criticism, but IMO putting "cult-like, secretive, and highly-controlling" into such a prime slot still seems like giving that criticism extreme, in fact, undue, weight. I switched it round: the criticism is still there, identically phrased, but the end now speaks instead of papal support and Escriva's canonization. The effect is pretty different. I'm not sure I did the right thing here, please take a look and give it some thought, everybody. Bishonen | talk 19:36, 29 November 2006 (UTC).
- While I have in general been discouraging direct nonminor edits (although vigorously but vainly encouraging bringing such suggestions here) as there is a procedural dispute going on, I for one will agree you have made an improvement for the very reasons you mention. Baccyak4H (talk) 19:53, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
- Thank you so much, Bishonen, for helping out! My first impression is that I love the changes you made to the intro. See what other people think, but I think it's a nice, polishing improvement, that just makes us that much closer to showing up on the frontpage of Wikipedia one day. :)
- About the NPOVing issue of order: Critics first or Popes first? I've heard a lot of debate over whether the "first word" or the "last word" has more weight. Some people feel strongly that the first part "sets the tone" and therefore is the desires position to have. Others feel strongly that having the "last word" is the strongest position. I firmly support whichever order makes other people feel the article is NPOV. :) If everyone likes the two sentences in Bish's order over the original order, then that's the one I want. :) --Alecmconroy 19:54, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
- "Critics of Opus Dei have argued that the organization is cult-like, secretive, and highly-controlling. By contrast, various Popes and other Catholic Church leaders have strongly supported Opus Dei and its teachings. Both Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI have singled it out for high praise, and in 2002, Escrivá was canonized as a saint."
- That is how the final para reads after Bishonens changes (I copied it here for clarity in case of further editing). The close of the intro is indeed an emphatic place, and this version seems to give just the right balance while ending on a positive note. Barring any major objections, I would strongly support retaining this version, exactly as-is. I don't see a way to improve on it : ) Doc Tropics 00:25, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
- BTW - I left the refs out of this copy/paste version just for continuity, but I also meant to comment on how accurate this summary is, as well as being well-balanced. Doc Tropics 00:27, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Quick Review
I read through the article and did some cleanup - minor things like removing wordiness, redundant statements, or paragraph structure. Overall it is very nicely referenced and presents good material. However, the final section is a mess. It gives way too much attention to fringe theories. Hopefully this can be addressed soon. Lostcaesar 10:48, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
- Actually, I might just take this up myself. The section relies heavily on one web source, yet states the position broadly - this needs to be fixed. One example of poor quailty was "ref bombing", where 6 ref's were stuck after the association of the founder with Hitler, even though all but one of the refs refered to previous names in the list (Franco), and the the one on Hitler was not properly expressed in the article (and still is not). Very unprofessional. Lostcaesar 11:40, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
- My sincere apologies-- I wasn't trying to refbomb or be in any way misleading or anything. Originally I just had three cites that meshed well with the three claims. But there was a desire to have more refs, and so I added some, but I admit that did make it look a tad "refbomby"-- your idea of interspersing them over the sentence is a vast improvement. I also added by back in the extra cites that had been requests, but commented them out so the result would appear "bomby", that way we can have our cake an eat it too! --Alecmconroy 06:25, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Image of the cilice
I find the source of this image dubious. It was made by a group called the "Opus Dei Awareness Network " – a group specifically attempting to portray a negative image of Opus Dei. The image itself is a chain with hooks. However, a cilice is typically a hair shirt or similar cloth item (see the definition). Thus, I suspect that the image may by a fabrication. We have every reason to think it propaganda. I find such an image, due to its source, to be inappropriate. Lostcaesar 17:39, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
- Is there a document that puts this into the public domain? I only see the copyright notice on that site. No GFDL notice.Dominick (TALK) 17:59, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
- That is not exactly the issue, as I am sure this website would be happy to spread the image as much as possible. Lostcaesar 18:06, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
- As far as wikipedia is concerned that is the first issue, if this a free image with no GFDL, the point of this being a "fake" Cilice is moot. I always heard they were rough rope belts. The image will be deleted if no proof that this is GFDL by the author is produced. Dominick (TALK) 18:58, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
- Yeah, the historical cilices were hairshirt type things, and I've heard of all sorts. The ones used by OD are the metallic spiked things-- all sources agree on that, but easiest to go straight to the horse's mouth: OD's Official Site has a page talking about the use of the cilice. They are indeed the metallic dealies. --Alecmconroy 06:32, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I can categorically tell you that that image is exactly what a cilice used by a member of Opus Dei would typically use. They are made by the Discalced Carmelites and I have one in my possession. It is exactly the same as those bought by Opus Dei numeraries.Iamlondon 03:55, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
- You may be able to do that, but your (London) testimonial in and of itself does not hold weight as to whether the image should be kept. The legality of its inclusion needs to be verified. Although the author has apparently revealed what s/he thinks its legal status is, via Lostcaeser's link, and that s/he thinks it is OK. The interpretations of this status or any updates to it for better or worse are only what counts. Baccyak4H (Yak!) 04:51, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
- Well, there's two DIFFERENT issues. There's a copyright/legality issue-- that I think is settled. I personally made the image from an image using an GFDLed image in the Wikimedia Commons image archives-- (some people felt the old image was too large). I think the way the GFDL & copyright law works, a cropped GFDL is a derivative work that is by law required to also be under the GFDL. Nonetheless, I went ahead and made a statement releasing the image under the GFDL just in case it wasn't already.
- Now, there's a second issue which LostCaesar raises-- is this really a cilice, or some sort of fabrication. The answer to that is that it is indeed an accurate representation, no one has ever suggested the cilices used by OD look like anything but this. There are numerous reliable print descriptions which mention them looking exactly like the one pictured. I myself saw a History Channel special that had one in it. It's good to have a healthy skepticism of sources who have overt bias, but in this case, I don't think anyone's denying that cilices of these sorts are used. --Alecmconroy 06:00, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
- Here I will copy what I wrote on Alec's page since it is relevant:
- In medieval Latin cilicium means hairshirt. They were uncomfortable garments worn originally by Egyptian monks and brought to southern France and popularized by St. Martin's, Tours, very early in the Middle Ages. Its name derives from the Cicilian goat hair that they are made out of (Cilicia is in Asia Minor - where St. Paul was from). Maybe in a modern context it has come to mean any uncomfortable mortifying item, but I think we could use a source for this. As for the image, I still have some problems with it. It strikes me as using a picture of JFK's motorcade after the assassination from a group called "Oswald Innocence Organization". So I am still a bit uneasy about this. Some reliable sources all around would make be feel much better.
- Lostcaesar 10:07, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
- The original image on the commons appears to be stolen then. There is NO GFDL statement on the ODAN website. If you have that statement, then it needs to be posted in both places. Dominick (TALK) 12:42, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
- Stolen!? No, no-- you're totally misunderstanding how this whole permission thing has to work. their whole website doesn't have to be GFDLed-- they can grant permission for specific images to be GFDLed. So, for example, six of the images we're currently using on this article are listed as GFDLed, but they don't have any link to any GFDLed statement on the originating website-- we just have the uploader's word that he isn't lying when he says the owner has granted permission, which is good enough for Wikipedia. --Alecmconroy 15:25, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
"Criticism and 'cult' allegations"
Alec has asked me on my talkpage for an opinion about the bullet points in the criticism section, "Criticism and 'cult' allegations," but I think I'll reply here. I dislike the way having bullets in that section, and nowhere else, separates out the criticism as being in a special category, distinct from the rest of the article. It should be in ordinary prose like everything else.
However, I have a larger question: should there be a criticism section at all? I'm sorry to be difficult, and I don't exactly know what alternative placement to suggest for the criticism, but take a look at this section of Wikipedia:Words to avoid: "Separating all the controversial aspects of a topic into a single section results in a very tortured form of writing, especially a back-and-forth dialogue between "proponents" and "opponents". It also creates a hierarchy of fact - the main passage is "true" and "undisputed", whereas the rest are "controversial" and therefore more likely to be false, an implication that may often be inappropriate. Since many of the topics in an encyclopedia will inevitably encounter controversy, editors should attempt to write in a manner that folds debates into the narrative rather than "distilling" them out into separate sections that ignore each other... In summary, controversy sections should not be used as a tool to marginalize criticism." It seems to me that especially the title of the next section has the effect of structurally marginalizing the criticism: ""Support and rebuttals". Seriously... I see people on this page opposing the use of the word "cult" in the heading of the criticism section—surely a less serious issue (given that the section is about "cult" accusations) than using a word like "rebuttals"? So, Alec, you've done a great job on this article, and I know this is a lot to ask, but if you're thinking FAC here... can you think of a way to "fold" the criticism into the narrative? Bishonen | talk 18:11, 1 December 2006 (UTC).
- Well, this is an issue that comes up from time to time. The old mediator initially was concerned about this, but ultimately decided this sort of structure was required. As he totally non-bindingly said "'From reading through the article and debate again I would agree that a separate section would perhpas be more useful to the article (and that the use of response section is a good way of achieving this). I think my intial suggestion of trying to weave criticism in, whilst in theory is quite a nice idea, on reflection is a bit too difficult to achieve effectively in this article."
- Here's my understanding of "Article Structures Which Imply A View". The way it's been explained to me, the reason that people sometimes suggest not having a criticism section is to ensure that one side doesn't get an advantage in a issue debate, with all the criticism being pulled out of the main narrative and relegated to exile in a post-scripted exile section. So, a structure like this would be bad:
- All kinds of facts mixed with opinions from supporters
- All kinds of facts mixed with opinions from supporters
- All kinds of facts mixed with opinions from supporters
- The opinions of critics.
- That would be bad. It subtly implies that the supporters POV is factual, whereas the critics POV is not. It creates a 'hierarchy of fact' where the main body of the article is factual or supportive, but the criticism is sequestered off. That sort of section is bad.
- In contrast, a slightly different structure, called a Response Section, is okay. (see here) Ours is entitled Responses to Opus Dei. In such a section, both major POVs are presented in a section, rather than just one-- rather than having one side or the other presented in the main body of the article. This looks like:
- Introductory material unrelated to controversial
- Responses to Section
- Major POV 1
- Major POV 2
- This sort of section IS okay, because it's "equal" and doesn't create a hierarchy of fact with one POV being factual and the other POV being notfactual. The heart of Article Structures Which Imply a View is this: In summary, controversy sections should not be used as a tool to marginalize criticism.
- The way I see it, the spirit of the recommendation is to not have an article structure which gives either POV an unfair advantage, but instead to have a level playing field. But nothing in that is to prevent presenting one side in a controversy and then another side in a controvery. Sometimes organized by POV is the just best way to do it. Just a quick glance over the Featured Articles list reveals that almost every controversial subject does do a "by POV" organization or other such controversy section(s): Boy Scouts of America membership controversies, GNU/Linux naming controversy, Cannabis rescheduling in the United States, Evolution.
- In some cases, this being one of them, I can't even begin to fathom how you could make a good article that doesn't have a "critics say X" section and a "supporters say y" section. You could intersperse them, but it'd make each sides argument impossible to follow-- and in practice, with this article, such an approach has been utterly impossible to balance.
- --Alecmconroy 18:38, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
- As regards the words "rebuttals"-- yeah, that is a rather poor choice of the words-- "Support and replies to criticism" might be better. ---Alecmconroy 18:56, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I haven't weighed in on the "criticisms" issue yet because there are advantages and disadvantages to doing it either way (a discrete section vs. interwoven). While I find it almost physically painful to disagree with the esteemed Bishonen, I tend to view this particular issue in a different light. I think it would be better to keep the section seperate and make sure that criticisms and responses are carefully phrased and properly balanced. This should help keep the rest of the article cleanly focused on specific topics. Attempting to interweave criticisms throughout the article could lead to an argumentative tone in the presentation and make it difficult for the reader to follow. These are just my initial thoughts, and now I'm going to crawl into a hole and hide from Bishzilla. Please don't hurt me! Doc Tropics 19:22, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
- Almost physically painful? We'll see. Bishzilla 22:46, 1 December 2006 (UTC).
- I would like to observe that the "rebuttals" section could certainly be worked into the overall article, even if the criticism section could not. I would also like to note that we have spin off articles for the criticisms, so this only needs to be a brief gloss, not detailed. Lastly, in our desire to be sourced, we need to be careful not to turn this encyclopedia into an advert for ODAN or any other webside with a "political" agenda. It would be a bit of a coup if ODAN could use Wikpidea to express its ideas, granting it a much higher readership than before. This would entail abuse of the encyclopedia, I think. Lostcaesar 22:19, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
- PS, I made a prose version of the criticisms here — Lostcaesar 22:21, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
- I'm sorry I forced Alec to rehash all that, from my ignorance of the mediation. While I think "folding" of criticism into the narrative desirable, I do see that it's probably impossible. But the criticism section is more problematic than it need be; I don't think it sufficiently "carefully phrased and properly balanced" yet. It needs to be considered in tandem with the pro section, and the phrasing needs to try to make up for the fact that the supporters get the last word, and get to "rebut" all the criticisms. They'll presumably have the last word —somebody has to—even after the seriously bad word "rebuttal" (=disproof, refutation, proof that something is false) is changed, as it surely must be. One point of imbalance is the quite literally hagiographic quotes in the pro section from John Paul II's statements on the occasion of Escrivá's canonisation. (There are no quotes in the criticism section.) Escrivá's canonisation is certainly an important fact, but it has already been given plenty of weight in the "History", "Doctrine" (via a cite), and "Historical responses to Opus Dei" sections. Is it really warranted in "Contemporary responses to Opus Dei" as well? Is the year 1982 claimed as the very breaking point, and overlap, between the historical and the contemporary..?
- Lostcaesar, about keeping the criticism section short because there are already spin-off articles about it: I understand how you got that impression, but actually there aren't. It only looks like there are, from the list of no less than four putatively "main articles" at the head of the criticism section: Opposition to Opus Dei, Opus Dei and Catholic Church leaders, Opus Dei and civil leaders, Opus Dei: Responses to Cult Accusations. But I'm afraid the whole array melted in the sun when I clicked on it. Three out of the four of them are currently up for deletion (and properly so) as POV forks. And the fourth, Opposition to Opus Dei, is redirected to Controversies about Opus Dei, and is not anything like a neutral presentation of opposition; in fact, surprise, it's yet another "rebuttal" of such opposition. There is no remotely acceptable or neutral spin-off article presenting criticisms of Opus Dei. Even if there were, this central article, Opus Dei, is supposed to have a proper criticism section. That's the way NPOV works—not through forking. Bishonen | talk 02:39, 2 December 2006 (UTC).
- Thanks, Bishonen, for chiming in here. Hello again! :) I agree with you that it is preferable to fold the disputes into the narrative. And IMHO, it is not impossible.
- In relation to providing equal treatment to two major POVs or avoiding a hierarchy of fact, I would like to know how this can be reconciled with "undue weight" as expressed here at Wikipedia's explanation of giving equal validity: Please be clear on one thing: the Wikipedia neutrality policy certainly does not state, or imply, that we must "give equal validity" to minority views. It does state that we must not take a stand on them as encyclopedia writers; but that does not stop us from describing the majority views as such; from fairly explaining the strong arguments against the pseudoscientific theory; from describing the strong moral repugnance that many people feel toward some morally repugnant views; and so forth.
- I still think that Wisden17, our mediator, was speaking with objectivity when he said that the "body of evidence" is strong enough to assume the existence of a majority view. John Allen, Jr., CNN's Vatican analyst, did empirical research. Reed Business Information said the following on his book on Opus Dei: "Allen's balanced, even reporting sometimes borders on the clinical." Introvigne, a social scientist who wrote in twelve scientific journals, commented that the analysis of the anti-cult group is "of very poor scientific quality." I think giving equal validity to the two views gives undue weight to a pseudo-scientific theory.
- As I said at mediation, the issues in dispute with regard to Opus Dei are empirical, sociological issues: wealth, power, amount of demands and freedom, political stance, secrecy. These are not matters of faith, where there can be no expertise, but observable and measurable items.
- I'd truly appreciate hearing people's comment on this issue, especially on the proportionate prominence and reliability of sources such as Allen, Introvigne, and Messori. I think we will not be doing Wikipedia a favor, if we treat the latest, and best researched work on Opus Dei at the same level as ODAN or Rickross. I support what User:Dominick and User:Lostcaesar are doing in questioning these latter sources. Thanks! Thomas 07:49, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
- Just remember-- we don't ever cite Rick Ross, not as of this moment. We cite new stories and provide a link to a mirror on rickross. Big diff. --Alecmconroy 11:57, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
- Bish-- thank you so much for diving in and looking over all of this. Let me reinterate Doc's sentiment that we're all a little starstruck to see ya here "in person" as it were-- I'm used to just watching you from the peanut gallery of the Arbitration Committeee. Anyway, I'm not totally clear how you think we fix the page? should some of the hagiographic quotes be pulled? Should the brief bullet points be transformed into full length prose? I'll try some things and show them to you, doc, and other and see what ya'll thing. --Alecmconroy 12:50, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
- I took the somewhat bold step of restructuring the bullets into prose, and renaming the section "controversy", to step away from the back and forth nature previously used. In time we can work the other sections more seamlessly into the article. Also, we might want to go over those spin off pages, if they are so poor, and include their content here, deleting them as needed. Lostcaesar 14:09, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
- Did you mean to delete the entire "replies to criticism" section? --Alecmconroy 14:12, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
- No I already patched that back in, sorry. Lostcaesar 14:17, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
- I took the somewhat bold step of restructuring the bullets into prose, and renaming the section "controversy", to step away from the back and forth nature previously used. In time we can work the other sections more seamlessly into the article. Also, we might want to go over those spin off pages, if they are so poor, and include their content here, deleting them as needed. Lostcaesar 14:09, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
- Bish-- thank you so much for diving in and looking over all of this. Let me reinterate Doc's sentiment that we're all a little starstruck to see ya here "in person" as it were-- I'm used to just watching you from the peanut gallery of the Arbitration Committeee. Anyway, I'm not totally clear how you think we fix the page? should some of the hagiographic quotes be pulled? Should the brief bullet points be transformed into full length prose? I'll try some things and show them to you, doc, and other and see what ya'll thing. --Alecmconroy 12:50, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Alec, I notice you changed by prose, and in the edit summary said that "if we're give a prose version a shot, we can't just collapse the bullet points, have to make it less dense". But what it seems you did mostly was to add more criticisms, or to add more details to those criticisms. I just wanted to inquire about this. Are you condensing information from the other pages? Lostcaesar 15:18, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
- I think so, although four controversy pages are such a shambles it's sometimes hard to be sure-- they're basically an almanac where either side can interject any criticism they want, with no real summary or integration between them. If you think this page is too much of an ODAN/OD brochure, check out the controversies article, where whole sections appear to be just copied verbatim from odan, along with gobs more rebuttals copied directly from supporters.
- Basically I'm trying to turn bullet points into paragraphs to avoid the "schizophrenic effect" where we have one paragraph that changes topics every sentence. In doing this, i'm trying to not add NEW issues at all-- i.e. I'm not just willy-nilly adding bullet points. Instead trying to find just one or two explanatory sentences about each criticism, so that the prose doesn't jump around. The downside of this, which I can already hear the OD member hear objecting to, is that even though it may make the same basic points, it will visually appear larger than the bullet points did.
- Maybe once i've made the full prose section, if the celebrities (Bish,Doc, et al) think it needed, we could add more supporting/rebuttal material. --Alecmconroy 16:04, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
- "Star-struck"? Heh, is that the famous love-bombing? :-) Yes, I think the canonization statements by John Paul II should be removed from the response section. Or, at least, from the "historical" response section—my big point was that it's a bit absurd to have it in both places (and it's not like it hasn't also been mentioned before).
- I too have made a prose version of the criticism section, here. It turns out to be a good deal like yours, Alec; in fact I guess mine might have been more to the purpose if I'd gotten round to posting it a bit sooner. Anyway, feel free to mine it for any details that might be of use. A minor matter, btw, Alec and Lostcaesar: you both use the word "claims" in your redactions of the criticism section. That's a bit of a weaselly word, please see Wikipedia:Words to avoid. Bishonen | talk 21:03, 2 December 2006 (UTC).
Word 'Cult", Structure
Since the main objection to the article has been the use of the world 'cult' in the subhead, I have removed both it and the NPOV flag.
I believe that the word is unneeded to speak about opposition to a controversial movement (see Jehovah's Witnesses for another group labeled cultic). The general shape of this article is the same as a number of controversial religious groups. I believe that we should condense the opposition sections in a similar way and leave it at that. Any thoughts? --CTSWyneken(talk) 19:18, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
- About the section title "'cult' allegations"-- I personally think it should be on the section title. I mean, that is the criticism. I know it's a harsh word, but the fact is, the cult allegations DO exist and they are notable, so we don't need to censor it away or try to hide it, we just need to let there be a response to it. Virtually every news story about Opus Dei mentions the "cult" word, it's notable, indeed it's THE most notable criticism. Certainly, we don't want to give undue weight to criticism, but as of this moment, the controversy is an integral part of what Opus Dei is in public discourse right now. Of all the news stories that have been run on Opus Dei lately, I don't know if there's been a single one that hasn't mentioned the controversies--- some authors find the controversies unfounded, some find them justified, most are in the middle, but practically all mention it. The discussion of Opus Dei is centered around the controversy and the 'cult' allegations-- we shouldn't shy from introducing the criticism and the rebuttals. --Alecmconroy 19:40, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
- I agree with Alec, above: I think the word "cult" is justified in that heading: of the allegations made by Opus Dei's detractors, their being a cult is by far the commonest, and the section discusses these allegations in particular. Note that by having a header called "'Cult' allegations", we are saying that there are allegations that they are a cult (which we must be cited, per WP:V and WP:NPOV), and not saying that they are a cult, which would be contrary to the NPOV policy. -- The Anome 20:32, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, exactly. I was sorry to see my restoration of the "Criticism and 'cult' allegations" heading so promptly reverted. I thought I'd made a reasoned case within the confines of the edit summary (unlike the editor who originally removed the heading, in an edit marked "minor" and referring to a "category" (?)). Alec has made a very strong case above. I'm sure nobody wants to edit war—I certainly don't—but Alec, if I may say so, I think you should revert to the heading that has been part of the "new" version all along, especially considering that User:CTSWyneken didn't scruple to change the heading within two minutes of inviting "thoughts" on this page. Bishonen | talk 20:56, 2 December 2006 (UTC).
- I agree with Alec, above: I think the word "cult" is justified in that heading: of the allegations made by Opus Dei's detractors, their being a cult is by far the commonest, and the section discusses these allegations in particular. Note that by having a header called "'Cult' allegations", we are saying that there are allegations that they are a cult (which we must be cited, per WP:V and WP:NPOV), and not saying that they are a cult, which would be contrary to the NPOV policy. -- The Anome 20:32, 2 December 2006 (UTC)