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****Its not hard to find Jaakobou. Its in the background section you keep restoring. Are you so unfamiliar with the material there that you need that much time to find it? Why have you restored six times if that's the case? [[User:Tiamut|<b><font color="#B93B8F">T</font><font color="#800000">i</font><font color="#B93B8F">a</font><font color="#800000">m</font><font color="#B93B8F">u</font><font color="#800000">t</font></b>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Tiamut|talk]]</sup> 19:14, 9 September 2009 (UTC) |
****Its not hard to find Jaakobou. Its in the background section you keep restoring. Are you so unfamiliar with the material there that you need that much time to find it? Why have you restored six times if that's the case? [[User:Tiamut|<b><font color="#B93B8F">T</font><font color="#800000">i</font><font color="#B93B8F">a</font><font color="#800000">m</font><font color="#B93B8F">u</font><font color="#800000">t</font></b>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Tiamut|talk]]</sup> 19:14, 9 September 2009 (UTC) |
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*****If an IP comes on the page and restores a shit version from 2 years ago and removes content you can expect any decent Wikipedian to restore the article content. If you wish to collaborate and show me where the source was used - I'd be happy to inspect its value for the text. As of now, I can't find it and its possible that now, after you've removed it, that some content is missing its citation. <b><font face="Arial" color="teal">[[User:Jaakobou|Jaakobou]]</font><font color="1F860E"><sup>''[[User talk:Jaakobou|Chalk Talk]]''</sup></font></b> 16:13, 10 September 2009 (UTC) |
*****If an IP comes on the page and restores a shit version from 2 years ago and removes content you can expect any decent Wikipedian to restore the article content. If you wish to collaborate and show me where the source was used - I'd be happy to inspect its value for the text. As of now, I can't find it and its possible that now, after you've removed it, that some content is missing its citation. <b><font face="Arial" color="teal">[[User:Jaakobou|Jaakobou]]</font><font color="1F860E"><sup>''[[User talk:Jaakobou|Chalk Talk]]''</sup></font></b> 16:13, 10 September 2009 (UTC) |
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******Whatever Jaakobou. You reverted all my original additions over the last few days too. Its clear you are operating with an [[WP:OWN]] mentality here. Try to share. [[User:Tiamut|<b><font color="#B93B8F">T</font><font color="#800000">i</font><font color="#B93B8F">a</font><font color="#800000">m</font><font color="#B93B8F">u</font><font color="#800000">t</font></b>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Tiamut|talk]]</sup> 17:00, 10 September 2009 (UTC) |
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== Original research - example #1 == |
== Original research - example #1 == |
Revision as of 17:00, 10 September 2009
Background violence
I changed the section "background", which is quite vague, to "Background violence", which is what the section was about anyway. I added two subheadings, separating out the Israeli and Palestinian experiences of violence. Even though they are related, it does not seem that people can agree about "who started it," which is a pointless venture after all, so maybe each 'side' needs its own space to relate experiences of violence. There is now a section with a solid paragraph dealing with attacks on Israelis, and at least a few sentences on attacks on Palestinians are now due for balance.
- It can be argued that Sharon's statements to the press, reported by Time, do not belong in "stated goals," but they also do not belong in "criticism," because they refer to a statement that Sharon did indeed make. Some of the charges of 'synthesis' were vaguely correct, but when I tried to go in and contextualize Sharon's statement so that it was no longer synthesis, but background, it got deleted again. Thus, I have moved the comment to the Background violence section, and if it gets deleted, well that's just undeniable POV-pushing.
- I must add, that, God this is unpleasant (no surprise to any of us, is it?). I am doing my best, as many others have done before me, to try to accommodate the perspective of those I disagree with, and I have yet to see them reciprocate. This is, after all, a page about a month-long Israeli offensive, with multiple attacks, not about a month of bombings in Israel. If you want such a page, create it somehow, don;t delete basic facts from this one. LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 05:16, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, its presence in "criticism" was profoundly ridiculous. Was Sharon criticizing himself — for something he hadn't yet done?? <eleland/talkedits> 09:48, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
- Right, for some, the position seemed to be that the purpose of the report was only to criticize him, not to report on his statement and the actions following. This too, is a synthesis approach to the issue, however. Other people just wanted to use Time as a source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by LamaLoLeshLa (talk • contribs) 17:19, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, its presence in "criticism" was profoundly ridiculous. Was Sharon criticizing himself — for something he hadn't yet done?? <eleland/talkedits> 09:48, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
- I must add, that, God this is unpleasant (no surprise to any of us, is it?). I am doing my best, as many others have done before me, to try to accommodate the perspective of those I disagree with, and I have yet to see them reciprocate. This is, after all, a page about a month-long Israeli offensive, with multiple attacks, not about a month of bombings in Israel. If you want such a page, create it somehow, don;t delete basic facts from this one. LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 05:16, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm restoring the previous "background" label - becuase the current structure is inappropriate and misleading - the content of the "violence against Palestinians" section is the Sharon quote, and no matter what your position is regarding this quote, it is not, in and of itself, violence. The article also implies that Palestinian suicide attacks in Cafes and restaurants are attacks against Israeli military targets. We can continue to discuss where, if at all , the Sharon quote belongs, but the current section structure is worse than before. Canadian Monkey (talk) 15:38, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
- The Sharon quote belongs in "Stated goals" where it used to be. And there are no NPOV issues about it, so I fail to understand how it comes to be tagged.
- Meanwhile, there are severely POV problem with the lede, which states "the Palestinian Authority did not manage to fully address damaged infrastructure for approximately two years after the invasions" - as if this had nothing to do with the IDF shooting dead 13 UN workers in the camp, along with Iain Hook, the UNWRA leader of the reconstruction (Nov 2002). PRtalk 08:57, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
- The only things that belong in a section titled ‘Stated goals’ are official statements, made at the beginning of the operation, as to its aims. If Sharon had said at the start of ODS that “The goal of ODS is to hit Palestinians...cause them losses” – it would be appropriate for that section. It is not appropriate to put in that section an offhand comment made in a cafeteria a month before the operation, under different circumstances (i.e: before a majority of the suicide bombings whose prevention was the stated goal), which was only dragged up in the aftermath of the operation, by some sources who in retrospect wanted to tie that statement to the operation. That statement can be mention in the criticism section – but not anywhere else in the article. Canadian Monkey (talk) 15:18, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
- It must be questionable whether an "official statement" explaining the intentions of a heavily criticised lead actor deserves any prominence atall. Otherwise we'd think that WWII started because the Polish attacked a German border post.
- And the fact that Sharon made statements which some people read as being an invitation to communal punishment before the most serious suicide attacks on Israel makes his stated intentions more significant and not less.
- Meanwhile, we have a statement in the lead that extends the time-scale of the article to cover an extraordinary 2 years - and yet, make it appear that the delays in reconstuction were caused by inefficiencies in the PA. Again, it's like making the fire that drove the defenders of the Warsaw Ghetto into the hands of the Germans was caused by them playing with candles. PRtalk 20:10, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
- The stement was not made as an official claim of the goals of the operation, so it can't go under the heading of "stated goals". It's as simple as that. I agree the official justifications are not always the full story, and perhaps we can just eliminate this 'stated goals' section altogether. Canadian Monkey (talk) 22:22, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
- The only things that belong in a section titled ‘Stated goals’ are official statements, made at the beginning of the operation, as to its aims. If Sharon had said at the start of ODS that “The goal of ODS is to hit Palestinians...cause them losses” – it would be appropriate for that section. It is not appropriate to put in that section an offhand comment made in a cafeteria a month before the operation, under different circumstances (i.e: before a majority of the suicide bombings whose prevention was the stated goal), which was only dragged up in the aftermath of the operation, by some sources who in retrospect wanted to tie that statement to the operation. That statement can be mention in the criticism section – but not anywhere else in the article. Canadian Monkey (talk) 15:18, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Whether Sharon's statement is in Background or stated goals really should not continue to be a sticking point, at least in my opinion. It deserves to be in this entry. I'm still waiting to see those who say that attacks towards Palestinians prior to the Operation have been continually deleted, re-insert them. Please do. LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 20:45, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
- Here is some info offered up by Eleland:
- The UN report on Jenin notes:
- 18. From the beginning of March until 7 May, Israel endured approximately 16 bombings, the large majority of which were suicide attacks. More than 100 persons were killed and scores more wounded. Throughout this period, the Government of Israel, and the international community, reiterated previous calls on the Palestinian Authority to take steps to stop terrorist attacks and to arrest the perpetrators of such attacks. 19. During this same period, IDF conducted two waves of military incursions primarily in the West Bank, and air strikes against both the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. The first wave began on 27 February 2002 and ended on approximately 14 March. Those incursions, which Israel stated were in pursuit of Palestinians who had carried out attacks against Israelis, involved the use of ground troops, attack helicopters, tanks and F-16 fighter jets in civilian areas, including refugee camps, causing significant loss of life among civilians. 20. Over the course of two days, 8 and 9 March, 18 Israelis were killed in two separate Palestinian attacks and 48 Palestinians were killed in the Israeli raids that followed. 21. Israeli military retaliation for terrorist attacks was often carried out against Palestinian Authority security forces and installations. This had the effect of severely weakening the Authority's capacity to take effective action against militant groups that launched attacks on Israelis. Militant groups stepped into this growing vacuum and increased their attacks on Israeli civilians. In many cases, the perpetrators of these attacks left messages to the effect that their acts were explicitly in revenge for earlier Israeli acts of retaliation, thus perpetuating and intensifying the cycle of violence, retaliation and revenge. 22. It was against this backdrop that the most extensive Israeli military incursions in a decade, Operation Defensive Shield, were carried out. The proximate cause of the operation was a terrorist attack committed on 27 March in the Israeli city of Netanya..." LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 19:09, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Public support: citations please
Hello all, we are still in need of citations for the claim that bombings dropped by 50% after the operation. Someone motivated to do so, please locate it or we'll have to delete that info at some point soon. Thanks, LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 20:33, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
- Issue fixed. JaakobouChalk Talk 14:06, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
Results
- regarding the following diff [1].
While it is correct that many people were arrested and a lot of damage was inflicted to Palestinian property during the operation. It is certainly not "the result" of the operation. The result of the operation is not a matter of what the operation did in fiscal action but the outcome as in "victory/defeat" and as such, notes about Palestinian loss of property - which could also be attributed to other factors btw - are improper for listing in that section. JaakobouChalk Talk 20:09, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
- So it is "correct" that people were arrested, and damage was inflicted on Palestinian property, but it was not a "result" of the military assault? You need to either adjust your glasses or buy a new dictionary. And what is "fiscal action" anyway? Both results, if verifiable and properly sourced, should be noted and listed in the main infobox. As they were until reverted. With respect and cordially etc. I came here via the Jenin link btw, not through stalking you Jaakobou. --Nickhh (talk) 22:45, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
- Template:Infobox Military Conflict says the result section of the infobox should summarize "the outcome of the conflict (e.g. "French victory")", not write everything that happened during and after it. This is what the casualties section and the text prose is for. I'll change it. -- Nudve (talk) 09:57, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- Actually that's much better all round - you're right that there's no need to repeat detail in the infobox which can all be found elsewhere on the page. It was just the one-sidedness of what was there originally that was bothering me, ie that it listed all the benefits for Israel (and in a somewhat triumphalist manner) but nothing about the debit side for the Palestinians ... --Nickhh (talk) 10:25, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- Template:Infobox Military Conflict says the result section of the infobox should summarize "the outcome of the conflict (e.g. "French victory")", not write everything that happened during and after it. This is what the casualties section and the text prose is for. I'll change it. -- Nudve (talk) 09:57, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
Nudve,
Current result section, noting "IDF pullback" is incorrect.[2] IDF secured what is considered a victory before 'pulling back'. For example, approx. 200 Palestinian militants surrendered in Jenin before the IDF moved out. The second operation was just a complementary one in a long term effort to stop the suicide bombings of civilians. JaakobouChalk Talk 12:57, 27 July 2008 (UTC) add link 16:12, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- "Victory" is a difficult term to attribute to such counterinsurgency operations, in part due to the vagueness of the objective. The second operation was indeed complementary, which is why I put it down as a result. How would you describe the outcome of the battle? -- Nudve (talk) 14:53, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- Victory is not difficult to attribute here since the smaller objectives were well defined as well as achieved. This Operation was part of (a) a successful campaign and (b) it was a successful operation within the successful campaign. Battle of Normandy, for example, is declared a "Decisive Allied victory" even though it was only a phase in Operation Overlord during WWII and did not end the war on its own. JaakobouChalk Talk 16:09, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, but the objective of the battle of Normandy was to conquer the coast of Normandy from Germany, which was achieved. Defensive Shield's objective was something like "elimination of Hamas infrastructure". I suppose "Israeli victory" is an option, but those statistics describing a decline in suicide bombings are really undue. Let's wait a while for further input from other users. -- Nudve (talk) 16:28, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- Victory is not difficult to attribute here since the smaller objectives were well defined as well as achieved. This Operation was part of (a) a successful campaign and (b) it was a successful operation within the successful campaign. Battle of Normandy, for example, is declared a "Decisive Allied victory" even though it was only a phase in Operation Overlord during WWII and did not end the war on its own. JaakobouChalk Talk 16:09, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- There's a fairly clear difference between the government stated goal for the whole campaign -- i.e. fighting terror (initiated mainly by Fatah actually, not Hamas) -- and the actual goals of Operation Defensive Shield, which were taking over the militants and their operation in certain places. The operation was successfully achieved with an Israeli victory against the Palestinian gunmen who surrendered themselves after being targeted at their intentionally selected, civilian base of operation.
- I don't mind leaving out the statistics. The main point though, is that the Israeli pullout from Jenin was certainly not backtracking in order to regroup, it was pulling out after the Palestinian militants surrendered, so there's no other way of describing this other than an Israeli victory.
- We don't deem Allied movement of forces from Normandy a "pullout" because they moved on to overtake Germany as well. JaakobouChalk Talk 17:26, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
Comment - whatever the outcome of this debate about victory/defeat/whatever, I'd just like to add that IMO the result absolutely must be short and concise. You can't write down everything that happenned in the operation, especially damage to infrastructure, which is never cited as a 'result' on Wikipedia (see Battle of Stalingrad, or something smaller like 2006 Lebanon War or Operation Changing Direction 11, all of which were devastating for infrastructure). As for the above debate, I'd personally write: Israeli success, launching of Operation Determined Path. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 17:50, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
Public perceptions
- Most of this (all but the last two sentences) have just been deleted: "After Operation Defensive Shield, the number of suicide bombings in Israel subsequently decreased significantly, with the number of attacks in 2003 50 percent lower than in 2002,[citation needed] but it was not clear if the operation was the reason for this decrease. A poll conducted after the end of the operation indicated that 86 percent of Israeli Jews thought that the operation contributed to Israel's security. 54 percent thought the Operation has damaged Israel politically. In the final analysis, 90 percent of those surveyed asserted that the decision to launch Operation Defensive Shield was the correct decision.[citation needed] Views among Arab citizens of Israel were the opposite, with equally high numbers against the Operation.[citation needed]" It was correct to delete all, not some of the data, since no citations have been added for any of the above sentences for three months now. Please find the citations and then you can add this back. But do not cut one portion of the study and leave another portion, without a citation - this strikes one as very inconsistent. LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 20:16, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
- LamaLoLeshLa,
- Offtopics 1: I'd request that you please add yourself to the "just been deleted" part of your comment, there's no reason to shy about that edit.
- Offtopics 2: I've got other obligations and will probably give this a serious look tomorrow, but the tone of your edit summary felt a bit... well, angry.
- Content-wise: Usually material which is reasonable/uncontested and is written in a neutral fashion has a chance of lasting a bit longer even without a source. You've raised a legitimate concern regarding the 50 percent and I've just resolved it fairly easily and within a short period of time from the moment I've noticed it. In general, I somewhat agree with your removal of the Public perception section to the talk page since it has been a bit over a two months. However, it is still a reasonable section with no exceptional claims and it would be best if you try and validate the material and only if unable to, make note of that as you remove it from the article.
- Cheers, JaakobouChalk Talk 20:32, 26 July 2008 (UTC) clarify 20:37, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
- Think I need to look up policy on talk page formatting. I've been tryin to make things more readable this way but I keep getting comments like the above, based on the impression that I am trying to avoid signing my comments. That's not my intent. LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 18:08, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
Oh my lord
How many times do I have to quote high-quality reliable sources which explain that the background violence was mutual and killed more Palestinians than Israelis before we can get anything other than suicide bombings into the "Background" section? Why does "Aftermath" apply exclusively to Israelis? Why is Jenin presented as, "Oh, we thought for a second something was wrong there, but hey it was all OK," when this blatantly contradicts the investigations which all found strong evidence of major, dramatic IDF war crimes? Why is anything not recognizable as aggressive hasbara shuffled off into some kind of "criticism section" where it is presented as random, dubious "allegations" or "claims?" And why do normal editing techniques never get the job done on Israeli-Palestinian articles?? <eleland/talkedits> 03:11, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
- Background: Can you please clarify the sources you brought forward regarding the background changes you are interested in making?
- Massacre allegations: The massacre claims were false and the media reported this while repeating the new claims - also unverified just as the massacre claims which turned out to be false:
- Cordially, JaakobouChalk Talk 11:28, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
- I think 'background' sections for battles and military operations are meant to provide the reasoning for the battles/operations, not anything that happenned right before the event. That is, the background section for this article should say why the Israelis decided to launch Operation Defensive Shield. Anything else is not relevant. It's really not a question of verifiability at all. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 12:20, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
- Jaakobou, the sources which describe the background to the operation are already in the article, they are just being culled for the anti-Israel attacks, with the anti-Palestinian attacks ignored. Simply read paragraphs 14 through 22 of the UN report (which you still have apparently not read, despite often citing it.) You are the one talking about "massacre allegations" and death tolls, not me. If you would only READ THE SOURCES you would know what the actual allegations are, which have nothing whatsoever to do with the meaningless emotive term "massacre" that has become a focus for Israeli propagandists.
- I want you both to tell me, right now, whether you have read in full the UN, Amnesty, and HRW reports on Jenin. Because over and over you talk as if you haven't, and if you haven't, you shouldn't be editing this article or even talking about it. <eleland/talkedits> 03:05, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
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POV discussion
Please raise POV concerns alongside reliable sources that would help expand the content. Relevant content could be added, but I would suggest the edit would first be pasted here for discussion.
With respect, JaakobouChalk Talk 08:45, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Hundreds of Palestinians dead???
The Palestinians claimed in the beginning for hundreds of deaths, but as later revealed, 'only' 54 died. Look at [[5]] where Amnesty says:
According to hospital lists reviewed by Amnesty International there were 54 Palestinian deaths between 3 and 17 April 2002 in both Jenin refugee camp and Jenin city as a result of the incursion and subsequent fighting. This figure includes seven women, four children and six men over the age of 55. Six had been crushed by houses. The body of one person known to have died by being crushed in his house has not been recovered Tierecke (talk) 13:32, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, but the fighting was not limited to Jenin. There were also the Battle of Nablus, the Siege of Bethlehem, and others engagements. -- Nudve (talk) 13:55, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
- The figure of 54 only refers to the period from 3 to 17 April. The same Amnesty document says that over the whole period of Operation Defensive Shield about 500 Palestinians were killed. MFlet1 (talk) 15:00, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
- The figure of 54 dead in Jenin comes from "hospital lists", bodies counted in the hospital. It cannot be considered complete. As Amnesty International tells us, "According to hospital lists ... not a single corpse was brought into the hospital from 5 until 15 April". They also say "When Amnesty International delegates went to Jenin Hospital on 17 April they found only "walking wounded" - those who had managed to make their own way through the IDF cordon. Doctors and diplomatic or other military experts who visited the scene, aware that in armed combat there is usually a ratio of three or four seriously wounded people to one dead person, wondered where were the heavily wounded." (Amnesty also says "Within five weeks all but one of the residents was accounted for" - unfortunately, I can't tell what this is supposed to mean, and they're not reporting their own observations).
- Nor is it the case that the UN restricts the number of dead in the way that's been claimed, since the UN report says that a PA official "alleged in mid-April that some 500 were killed, a figure that has not been substantiated".
- All in all, we're in no position to say what the death toll was, the UN report doesn't even exclude the possibility of it being over 500 in Jenin alone. It seems a great shame that a well-referenced section on the only point on which everyone agrees was removed from the main article. PRtalk 13:14, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
I am sad that the number of deaths is a source of discord here. Whether there was 1 or 1 million means that there was death and that is wrong. Every religion on earth holds life as sacred but I see that people kill for any reason, whether for there safety or for Gods will. Life is life you ever you are or what religion, color, beliefs you have. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.236.194.136 (talk) 15:56, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
Erekat
I think it be best to avoid inflating the Erekat narrative to the point where he gives ridiculous replies and is called a liar by the Israeli media. Keep it simple. JaakobouChalk Talk 16:49, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
- There is a direct question to Erekat, it is only fair to include his response. Try including both sides of the story, not just the one that fits the narrative of your liking. Nableezy (talk) 16:58, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
- That sounds like a personal attack to me. I'm ok with adding his narrative response if we also add the Israeli narrative that he is a liar and that the media is suffering from a Jenin massacre syndrome. In fact, I prefer the more complete version that includes the perspective of both sides rather than just a bland text that says he was widely quoted. Let me know which one you like. JaakobouChalk Talk 17:13, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
- If that sounded like a personal attack you have a questionable understanding of the word attack (or was that one too?). If you want to go this way we can, but it will also include the war crimes allegations that came from many, many human rights organizations. Ill leave the text you inserted in while I compile sources that tears it apart. Nableezy (talk) 18:29, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
- And all this because you dont want to include the answer to a question in the references and notes. Nableezy (talk) 19:25, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
- Also, could you say where you got this because the only place I can find a record of this story is in various websites not associated with the National Post. Where did you get these quotations? Nableezy (talk) 19:49, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
- Heyo Nableezy,
- I got it from (wait for it) the National Post. I'd be happy to email you a copy of it if you want. Anyways, I think it would be easier on us if we focus on the minor version. Trust me when I say that you won't like the more complete version. Currently the article is already biased against Israel with it's "culture of impunity" and "prima facie". I wouldn't expect the article will get even more pro-Palestinian if we place in some of the Israeli perspectives in there. Anyways, I'd be happy to work in some text from my sources if you're that interested in inflating the Erekat narratives even beyond the current status.
- p.s. I suggest you review the WP:NPA policy. Specifically, the part about commenting on content and not on contributors. Saying I prefer a certain narrative is not the best way of working in a collaborative spirit.
- Warm regards, JaakobouChalk Talk 08:45, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
- You carried on an edit war because of "inflating Erekat" in the friggin references, what do you expect me to say. I prefer not to enable email so Ill just take your word for it. But be careful of long quotations from a copyrighted source, that is a no-no around here. Nableezy (talk) 16:01, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
- I agree about the copyright concerns and thank you for the help. Disagree with your aggressive approach (personal attacks) and changing the meaning of text ato say something different than what the source was saying as you approached the copyright concerns.
- Warm regards non-the less :)
- -- JaakobouChalk Talk 20:47, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
- I have yet to make a personal attack, please stop saying that I did. I dont understand why you changed the last edit. Why does it need to say "whispered about" and what is the point of saying the soldiers were listening to Alanis Morisette? What does that have to do with anything? And why is there a need to say he refused to elaborate out of fear of collaborators? What is the point of that? Nableezy (talk) 22:35, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
- And I made one mistake from reading the convoluted text you had originally inserted, did not make that mistake twice. It was not clear to me that part was a quote from the Palestinian legislature and not from the reporter. So try and assume I was acting in good faith rather then imply some intent in that one mistake in cleaning up a copyvio. Nableezy (talk) 22:38, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
- You carried on an edit war because of "inflating Erekat" in the friggin references, what do you expect me to say. I prefer not to enable email so Ill just take your word for it. But be careful of long quotations from a copyrighted source, that is a no-no around here. Nableezy (talk) 16:01, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
- That sounds like a personal attack to me. I'm ok with adding his narrative response if we also add the Israeli narrative that he is a liar and that the media is suffering from a Jenin massacre syndrome. In fact, I prefer the more complete version that includes the perspective of both sides rather than just a bland text that says he was widely quoted. Let me know which one you like. JaakobouChalk Talk 17:13, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
Recent edits
I'm open to discussion to possible changes. But you can't make large changes to the article in one swing that change some of the natural and neutral reading of it. Discuss. JaakobouChalk Talk 07:28, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
- Please discuss. JaakobouChalk Talk 11:05, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
- Discuss what? You keep removing relevant background information, in contra WP:PRESERVE and WP:NPOV. Add whatever you want, but stop deleting material. -- 209.6.238.201 (talk) 06:09, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
- Jaakobou is right. If you want to revamp the entire article, be open to discussion and explain your changes. -- Nudve (talk) 08:13, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
- Sorry, that is not how the project operates. -- 209.6.238.201 (talk) 15:55, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
- Can you please point to the policy that supports your view on how the project operates? JaakobouChalk Talk 01:05, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
- Discuss what? You keep removing relevant background information, in contra WP:PRESERVE and WP:NPOV. Add whatever you want, but stop deleting material. -- 209.6.238.201 (talk) 06:09, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
- I don't see the problems with the IP edit. Looks good to me. Introduces some much needed balance to the article which prior to those additions provided no information on the violence sustained by Palestinians under the occupation. The article (like the one on the Battle of Jenin) provides ample space to detailing Israel's concerns about suicide bombings, but no or little space to detailing Palestinian concerns about the occupation and Israeli violence. I support the additions and would like to see the same thing at other articles. Tiamuttalk 08:56, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
- I already mentioned WP:NPOV and WP:PRESERVE. I don't understand, Jaak, what other policies you would have me cite. Are not those two enough? -- 209.6.238.201 (talk) 04:35, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Question for Jaakobou and Ynhockey - did you take part in this operation, have you carried weapons in the geographical area, and have any members of your family, or close acquaintances, carried weapons in the area or trained to carry weapons potentially to be used in this area? Please examine Wikipedia:Conflict of interest and treat its advice as a non-involved Wikipedia outsider might consider reasonable. One useful part of the guide might be this: "Friedrich Engels would have had difficulty editing the Karl Marx article, because he was a close friend, follower and collaborator of Marx.[2] Any situation where strong relationships can develop may trigger a conflict of interest. Conflict of interest can be personal, religious, political, academic, financial, and legal. It is not determined by area, but is created by relationships that involve a high level of personal commitment to, involvement with, or dependence upon, a person, subject, idea, tradition, or organization." 86.157.70.95 (talk) 07:59, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
- I would figure that the whole "I don't see the problems with the IP" thing would be done with by now. I've reintroduced the long-standing version and reinserted the removed holocaust survivors matter as well. Its not a joke that people without families found their death at a Passover dinner and if some of the content seems inaccurate, I'd expect some sensitivity and possibly the usage of discussion and a 'fact' tag.
- p.s. I'm fond of working with IPs who ask personal questions that seem politically motivated. I'd suggest the IPs review the Final decisions section at WP:ARBPIA first and then consider logging into their username.
- Warm regards, JaakobouChalk Talk 14:12, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
- Your comment does not address why you restored "the longstanding version" which you have reverted to restore 6 times now in the last two weeks, without explaining once why it is preferable. I addressed the issue of the Holocaust survivors in my comment below, and I don't think I was disrespectful in any way. I don't appreciate you ignoring my comments below in crafting your response above or the attempt to make it look as though your comment above predates mine below. Please stick to article content and respond to my comments below. Tiamuttalk 14:23, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
- Jaakobou has now reverted the material, without discussing, once again [6]. I'm not sure if he is trying to be deliberately provocative or is simply incapable of understanding basic instructions. Uninvolved admins who commented at ANI indicated that reverting and asking people to discuss without discussing yourself (i.e. identifying what can be improved in the text or changed to make the article better) is unproductive. Please Jaakobou, stop trying to instigate edit wars. Self-revert and explain yourself. Tiamuttalk 13:30, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
- And by the way, your edit summary Tag-teaming aside, I point Tiamut to WP:BRD. e.g. if you think that holocaust survivers were not among the dead, you can place a tag. no? is not an explanation. I have not tag-teamed and I edited the text that I restored. If your problem was with this edit, as you can see, it was made alone. You could have simply undone it and retained the other changes. And if you have a source that says the majority of those killed were eldery Holocaust survivors, I would be happy to restore it and discuss whether its inclusion is relevant or not. The one cited didn't say that, and as I'm unsure as to the relevance of its inclusion anyway, I was bold and removed it. You should not use that as an excuse to throw babies out with bathwater or to evade discussion of the other things you have reverted a number of times now without ever explaining why. Tiamuttalk 13:55, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
Other than saying "npov" and retrieving a version that wasn't on the article since 2007, the IP hasn't made an effort to explain the value of their edit. The problems with the edit, begin with the misapplied time frame for the used sources and, as a result, there is a misrepresentation of chronological order and historical facts. As I've said early on, I'm open to discussion to possible changes. But you can't make large changes to the article in one swing that change some of the natural and neutral reading of it. It also removed information and sources and makes for a sorts of misdirection on an Israeli cabinet decision. I'll give the IP or their buddy a little while to explain before reverting back to the version that included the, now removed, info and sources. JaakobouChalk Talk 12:48, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
- Other than making vague allusions to so-called chronological problems in the additions, you have not articulated what the issue is in any way that allows for your fellow editors to understand and improve the text. If you do not provide a detailed, specific outline of what is wrong with the text that I copy edited after restoring, I will be restoring it again shortly. Please read WP:PRESERVE and WP:REVERT thoroughly, since it seems you do not understand how editing Wikipedia works. Thanks. Tiamuttalk 14:12, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
- Also Jaakobou, would you mind providing a link to the ref that says that "the majority of those killed were eldery Holocaust survivors"? I couldn't find the ref for that and you restored it in your blanket revert. I don't mind keeping it for the time being if there's a ref for it, but I'd like to veify that the ref says that. Thanks. Tiamuttalk 14:27, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
- I have a source and if you don't even know what edit you were supporting, that is indicative of the very problem which is raised on ANI. I'm still waiting for the IP to respond on the origins of the version they brought into the page and the explanation on why content was removed. I won't be waiting much longer though. JaakobouChalk Talk 21:08, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
- Waiting for what Jaakobou? You long ago reverted to your preferred version that you've restored a bunch of times without explaining why. You still haven't explained why. Nor have you answered my my simple request for a source for a specific phrase in the article. Please stop stonewalling. Tiamuttalk 21:17, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
- Dear Tiamut,
- I'm honestly not following what you're doing here. It feels as though you've taken up a "defender of wikipedia" role rather than an editorial role. And, if you notice, you're "defending" someone who suspiciously inserted a copy-paste from 2 years ago (Nov. 2007) six times without discussion and their "did you take part in this operation" friend.
- The content changes remove existing content. I think this is an easy enough to grasp explanation as to one of the reasons I disagree with the edit. I'm still waiting for the IP to explain their activity, which is a more decent response than asking editors for their level of participation in fighting activity.
- Warm regards, JaakobouChalk Talk 11:38, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
- Jaakobou, please provide a source for the statement "the majority of those killed were eldery Holocaust survivors".
- Please also explain explain exactly which information was removed in the edit that you would like to see restored so that we can forge a compromise version that incorporate the changes made in the IP's edit while addressing your concerns. This cannot be done if you are not clear about what you want. And if you are not clear about what you want, I wills imply reinstate the text, since I see no problem with it. Tiamuttalk 11:50, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
- It seems the IP has already restored the text. I have made some copy edits again, moved refs to the end of sentences, etc, etc. I expect that you will not be blanket reverting again. If you wish to reinclude information you think is relevant and reliably sourced that has since been omitted, please do. Tiamuttalk 13:14, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
- Dear Tiamut,
- I wanted to give the IP the benefit of the doubt and see if they respond to the issues. It seems they are not doing that. Now, considering that the IP removed content and that current citations (despite your copy edit effort) no longer fit the text, I am still waiting a little longer to hear the IPs explanation and then, might reconsider the bringing back of the the long standing and stable version. I have a source for the holocaust survivors and will introduce it when bringing back the long standing version and I have no special issues with real article concerns that don't delete long standing information and make a mess of the sources. I've seen nothing wrong with the long standing version and it shouldn't have content removed without explanation and/or discussion by an IP, esp. if they use a version they unearthed from 2 years ago which makes this endeavor feel stranger than fiction.
- p.s. I'd expect any compromise discussions to include the IP and not just their canvassed buddy. Certainly, were not going to take the old edit as is and start a compromise from there, but rather we'd start from the long standing version (see also WP:BRD and WP:Consensus).
- Warm regards, JaakobouChalk Talk 14:08, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
- You just evaded the two questions I posed to you once again. I ma going to look at the text even more closely to see if I can determine what it is that is inaccurate (as you claim without detailing). If I find things that need to be improved, I will improve. I will consider any blanket reversion of this text to be disruptive on your part. I've asked a number of times for you to be specific, and you are not being specific. Failure to substantively engage your interloctuors on content while blanket reverting is vandalism Jaakobou. What IP editors choose to do is their concern. I'm talking to you here now and I'd appreciate you respond to my concerns substantively. Tiamuttalk 14:14, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
- Since you are unwilling to go through the two versions point by point, I have at User:Tiamut/breakdown. It is clear that the IP/new version is more in line with our core policies of WP:NPOV and WP:NOR. I would say that I am surprised by your multiple reversions to the very problematic version, despite the many and major problems with it, but unfortunately, I'm not. Tiamuttalk 17:29, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
Reverted to the earlier version. I replaced the background from 2000, which was used in a WP:SYNTH fashion because the sources don't really connect it to this subject. The cites to UN reports and Palestinian advocay groups were not that either that compilable with wp:rs. In its stead, I moved back the info regarding the attacks that were more contemporaneous to the attacks. Its these attacks that preceded the Sharon qutoe. The removal by the IP is wrong and its enablement by established editors is surprising. WP is also very disapointed that other established editors did not protest when the IP troll began harassing editors it decided were Israeli. An indication of good faith collaboration is made when editing opponents stick for each other in the face of this nonsense. The enablemet of this nonsense creates a battlefield mentality. The text stating "and saw two waves of incursions by the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) into Palestinian towns and villages in the West Bank" is neither supported by the cited BBC or PMW.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 01:25, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
I've sadly been forced to do the same since, Nableezy seems to cherish edit-warring rather for the great contributions of removing any mention of the Palestinian militancy and the placing of false information in regards to the IDF incursions... it can't get much worse in the WP:TE department. Anyways, I'll add in the holocaust related ref now to respond to the valid concern raised by Tiamut in this diff.[7] JaakobouChalk Talk 02:58, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
In retrospect, while I have a source for the holocaust survivors issue[8], it is probably not the most prominent thing and can be skipped from the background section. The outrage factor is not needed in this article so much and can be spared to the massacre article. JaakobouChalk Talk 03:04, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
- Jaak, how many times have you reverted this edit? You really expect me to take your admonishments about edit warring seriously? Take a look at the history of the article. But I really hate working on the same thing as you so I dont plan on dealing with your inane accusations anymore. nableezy - 03:28, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
- Brewcrewer and Jaakobou. You are both restoring a WP:SYNTH version not supported by the sources cited. I went to considerable trouble to do what you should have long ago: analyze the sources and construction of the IP edit. Its fine. Your old version is not, for many of the reasons I outlined at User:Tiamut/breakdown. Until you provide sources that say that those attacks were related to Sharon's statement and the undertaking of the second incursion, you should not be restoring it. I want to see quotes from the articles in question making those links. Not you cutting and pasting a bunch of random attacks together and making the OR conclusion that they are related. And Brewccrewer, the source that supports the info on the two incursions and their dates is the UN report. It is a reliable source, despite your strange opinion that it is not. Please read the things I take time to write. It would help greatly in forging a compromise version. (I even isolated the relevant quote at User:Tiamut/breakdown.) No compromise is possible if editors do not edit in good faith. Please do. Tiamuttalk 09:37, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
- Brewcrewer, this is your second revert today to a version that is clearly SYNTH and POV. You have not addressed the concerns I raised at User:Tiamut/breakdown. Pretending that you have by referring me to the talk page in your edit summary is disingenuous in the extreme. Self-revert, and join in a substantive discussion, please. I am not against modifying the new text. I will not, however, have it thrown out based on falsehoods. A close examination of the text and sources shows it is relevant, reliably sourced and fair, though there is always room for improvement. So work on improving it.
- Specifically, in response to your muddled justification for your revert above: There is no SYNTH in the new text. The UN report is certainly an WP:RS and it is the one that frames the operation in the backdrop of a mutual cycle of violence. The version you are reverting to is one-sided. It uses the UN report as a source while ignoring mention of the incursion launched by Israel prior to ODS. It focuses totally and completely on the Israeli POV, describing only suicide bombings, with no mention of the violence sustained by Palestinians at the hands of the IDF. Further, if by "Palestinian advocay groups" you mean the source that was cited to Palestinian Media Watch, that's not a Palestinian advocacy group - its an Israeli one. And I removed that reference in my followup edits (which you also reverted). Note that its pasted in the section below for unreliable and irrelevant sources. In other words, you just reinstated a source that you took issue with. Are you even paying attention to what you are doing? Tiamuttalk 13:58, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
I reinstated the first sentence on the cycle of violence as the violence was not all on one side and pretending the background to this is only the suicide bombings is bogus. I also brought back the Btselem numbers on casualties for both sides and the information on the Israeli incursions into the West Bank. No content was removed in my edit so if you challenge it please say exactly what is wrong with the additions. nableezy - 20:28, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
- And I copy edited the text after that. I also changed some words to avoid ("terror attacks" as a descriptor for 9 attacks by militants, which include things like a qassam rocket launch), removed how many Israelis were killed in March (once, because it was mentioned twice after Nableezy's addition), cut out some emotive and redundant language, and made the different pieces fit together a little better (I hope). There are still many things that could be added, and there are still some problems of OR that need to be addressed. But I hope we have moved beyond the blanket revert stage that has plagued this section for almost two years now. Tiamuttalk 22:13, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
There's several issues that I've corrected so that we can discuss them but this thread is a tad too long already so I'll see if we can summarize the issues in better form and, if necessary, include an RfC to the ones we can't resolve. JaakobouChalk Talk 16:07, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
This section is for links being removed from the article, either because they are not related, or not reliable.
- Arafat Blames Israel for Tel Aviv Bombing, PMW, July 12, 2004
- Palestinian Media Watch is not a reliable source. Tiamuttalk 13:08, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
- Off course they are. CNN and others cite them without question. JaakobouChalk Talk 18:55, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
- In the particular instance that CNN cited them (which is not the case here), maybe, but they are a source only for their own opinion. You should know that Jaakobou, given that you participated in this discussion about it at the RS board. We should not be using them here, according to the outcome of that discussion and the one before it. Tiamuttalk 19:18, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
- They are only used to support another source that Al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigades are Fatah affiliated. While they are most certainly wiki-reliable for this assertion even on their own, I don't mind it if other sources are used in replacement. Agreed? JaakobouChalk Talk 16:10, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
- In the particular instance that CNN cited them (which is not the case here), maybe, but they are a source only for their own opinion. You should know that Jaakobou, given that you participated in this discussion about it at the RS board. We should not be using them here, according to the outcome of that discussion and the one before it. Tiamuttalk 19:18, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
- Off course they are. CNN and others cite them without question. JaakobouChalk Talk 18:55, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
- Palestinian Media Watch is not a reliable source. Tiamuttalk 13:08, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
- Palestinian Authority funds go to militants, BBC, November 7, 2003
- While BBC is uncontestably reliable, this article, cited in the background section, is not really related. At least, not explicitly so. If someone wants to reinclude this article, please note what information you are using it for and how it is related to the leadup to the incursion. Tiamuttalk 13:12, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
- Where is the source used exactly? I'll give it a look (a little later today) and see if it could be removed. JaakobouChalk Talk 18:55, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
- Its not hard to find Jaakobou. Its in the background section you keep restoring. Are you so unfamiliar with the material there that you need that much time to find it? Why have you restored six times if that's the case? Tiamuttalk 19:14, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
- If an IP comes on the page and restores a shit version from 2 years ago and removes content you can expect any decent Wikipedian to restore the article content. If you wish to collaborate and show me where the source was used - I'd be happy to inspect its value for the text. As of now, I can't find it and its possible that now, after you've removed it, that some content is missing its citation. JaakobouChalk Talk 16:13, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
- Its not hard to find Jaakobou. Its in the background section you keep restoring. Are you so unfamiliar with the material there that you need that much time to find it? Why have you restored six times if that's the case? Tiamuttalk 19:14, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
- Where is the source used exactly? I'll give it a look (a little later today) and see if it could be removed. JaakobouChalk Talk 18:55, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
- While BBC is uncontestably reliable, this article, cited in the background section, is not really related. At least, not explicitly so. If someone wants to reinclude this article, please note what information you are using it for and how it is related to the leadup to the incursion. Tiamuttalk 13:12, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
Original research - example #1
Following nine terror attacks between March 2-5[1] the Israeli cabinet decided to massively expand its anti-terrorist activity.
Which of the sources cited here says that the Israeli cabinet decided to massively expand its anti-terrorist activities following these attacks? Tiamuttalk 18:01, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
Please note that the UN report says that a wave of IDF incursions took place between 27 February and 14 March, indicating this way underway before these attacks took place. Why are Brewcrewer and Jaakobou restoring a version of the background that obfuscates this basic fact? Its not even mentioned the text they are restoring. In its place, we have this WP:OR. Tiamuttalk 18:07, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
- Heyo Tiamut,
- There does seem to be a hole in details here with the UN note about an incursion on 27 Feb. I started to search for related details and found the following[9],[10] (note section B), [11]+[12]+[13] leading to this -> [14], [15] (important) +[16] leading to this -> [17].
- According to this information, I'm not sure the UN got the phrasing right. Closure of the Orient House is not exactly an incursion. Anyways, there could be more info but I don't think this info (about Palestinian militancy in February) should be written into the stable article without some thought and discussion. In early March, the Israeli cabinet sat down for an emergency meeting right after nine attacks which occurred within 3 days and decided to further increase deployment in the the PA controlled areas. Anyways, there is no original research here.
- Warm regards, JaakobouChalk Talk 18:53, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
- Heyo Jaakobou! You gave me a bunch of links in Hebrew. You know I don't read it well. So why would you do that? What I can possibly learn from them? How is that engaging me on the material presented above.
- Can you please isolate the sentence(s) in the sources cited for the current text that supports the phrasing of the sentence above? That's all I want. I'm willing to have a discussion about what other things to add, but first I'd like you to support the sentence that is there or concede that it needs work and agree to removing it so that we can formulate sentences you would like to see replace it, based on reliable sources. Tiamuttalk 19:12, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
- I figure first we must decide on whether we want to keep this article's violence background section to begin in March or earlier than that. These sources all relate to violence in February and, while they are interesting (esp. the closure of the orient house), I can't say I'd be inclined to translate them all without some framework on whether or not we want anything this early included. I hope this makes sense. JaakobouChalk Talk 16:16, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
Some issues for discussion
According to
I feel it is over-wikifying, to place an "according to" note for the statistics on attacks on Israelis by the institute that does these statistics. I don't believe there's anyone else with conflicting evidence and it feels redundant. Esp. when they are registered as if they are a blog. They are not. JaakobouChalk Talk 16:21, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
- I prefer this info remain attributed to the source. Can you provide info on who the source is? Its in Hebrew, which I have told you many times, I will not read. Tiamuttalk 16:59, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
unequivocal
I fail to see the value in repeating "unequivocal" twice within the same paragraph. Please explain. JaakobouChalk Talk 16:21, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
- Because the first time, its the chief military officer who uses the term, The second its Milton-Edwards herself. Makes perfect sense to me. Tiamuttalk 16:54, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
Cheryl Rubenberg
All due respect to Cheryl Rubenberg's "analysis" of the IDF's intentions, she is fronting a fringe, politicized pro-Palestinian organization. I fail to see her notability as one that would require her fringe analysis to be included without some weaselish terms noting her very strong political affiliation. In any event, I must insist that she will not be introduced (again) without discussion and some form of communal resolution. JaakobouChalk Talk 16:25, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
- Info is attributed to her. She is an WP:RS for her own opinions. Tiamuttalk 16:55, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
Two incursions
The UN source used for this is perplexing in it's lack of input and apparent false chronology. The BBC video has no background input and not every action into Palestinian areas is considered an incursion, otherwise we'd have a much higher number here than just two. I've no objection to some listing on the Israeli operations but it can't be made out of synthesis and without the relevant Palestinian background (see sources mentioned above in regards to Orient House operation). The UN document covers a time-frame of 3 months, only one of them (March) is agreed upon for the background information and we need to come to an agreement if we want to change the length and details of the background input. i.e. with or without content from February. JaakobouChalk Talk 16:33, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
- First wave of Israeli incursions began on 27 February and ended March 14. Its in the UN report. There is no synthesis involved. Tiamuttalk 16:55, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
The Btselem source seems to be between 2000-2007. This is certainly not the right way to write info that I'm not even certain is relevant to the location it was written in. Please place the directly related to the background of the operation source and we'll review it and consider the proper way to list this input down. JaakobouChalk Talk 16:33, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
- While Btselem may collect casualties for the whole period (2000-2007), we use them only the month of March 2002, directly preceding the invasion. I see no problem here. Tiamuttalk 16:58, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
Jenin and Bethlehem surrendered
I'm not following the changes here. While a few militant fringes claimed a victory, no one really takes this operation to be anything but a victory, even if not "unequivocal" since militancy continued afterwords. In this respect, WWI was a victory for the allied forces even if Nazi Germany forced them to engage it in WWII. Yes? JaakobouChalk Talk 16:35, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
- Sources please. Add the information you think supports the terminology "Israeli success" in the infobox to the section on Military outcome before restoring it again. The request in the edit summary was clear. You have no source supporting the info. Therefore, it does not belong. Tiamuttalk 16:57, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
- ^ New York Jewish Times, 4 March 2002, 'Weekend of terror leaves 23 Israelis dead'
- On March 4, the first Qassam rocket attack of March 2002 was made into Israel; there were no casualties. (Source: IDF Spokesperson Statistics).
- [18] Palestinian gunmen took up a position on a pedestrian bridge above Petah Tikva Road at the center of Tel Aviv and attacked two restaurants below, "The Steak Gathering" and "Sea Food Market" killing 3 Israelis and injuring 31 (four severely).
- [19] suicide bomber detonated in an Egged No. 823 bus.
- [20][21] Bethlehem bypass "tunnel" attack.
- [22][23][24] Qassam rocket attack on Sderot injured a 16 month-old baby.