Ms Sarah Welch (talk | contribs) →Onam as a secular festival: add definitions |
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:Third, I haven't done an exhaustive search, but there are sources which explicitly mention Onam as a "secular festival", although they seem to be of low quality, e.g.: |
:Third, I haven't done an exhaustive search, but there are sources which explicitly mention Onam as a "secular festival", although they seem to be of low quality, e.g.: |
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:{{talk quote|Onam is celebrated after the memory of King Mahabali. It is one festival which is very specific to Malayalees (Kerala). It is a truly secular festival in which people of all religions and castes take part with equal zeal. It occurs during the Malayalee month of ''Chingam'', which coincides with ''Shravan Masa'' of the Indian calendar and it generally falls between August 15th and September 15th. The festivities for Onam last for 10 days. According to the legend, Onam celebrates the golden age of King Mahabali, a mythical ruler of Kerala.<ref name="Bhalla">{{cite book |last1=Bhalla |first1=Kartar Singh |title=Let's Know Festivals of India |date=2005 |publisher=Star Publications |isbn=978-8176501651 |page=15 |url=https://books.google.co.in/books?id=WORYY5Vl0ygC&pg=PA15#v=onepage&q&f=false |accessdate=7 January 2020}}</ref>}} |
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:Having said that, practically all the scholarly sources read by me emphasize the secular nature of it. Here is one more such source: |
:Having said that, practically all the scholarly sources read by me emphasize the secular nature of it. Here is one more such source: |
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:{{talk quote|In the collective consciousness of Kerala is the myth of king Mahabali, during whose reign, all human beings were equal, and there were no lies and no deceit. The legend describes how Gods, jealous of the reign of Mahabali, tricked him to the underworld, but had to grant him the boon of being able to visit his beloved subjects once a year. Thus every year, during Onam, the national festival of Kerala, all Keralites, irrespective of caste, creed or religion, welcome the 'annual visit' of Mahabali. They cherish the poetic memories of a bygone era – a period of equity and equality. In effect, the dreams of an egalitarian society find their finer expressions in celebrating Onam during the most beautiful season of the year.<ref name="Ramanathaiyer">{{cite book |last1=Ramanathaiyer |first1=Sundar |last2=MacPherson |first2=Stewart |title=Social Development in Kerala: Illusion or Reality? |date=2018 |publisher=Routledge |isbn=978-1138715752 |page=21 |edition=1st |url=https://books.google.co.in/books?id=2MVKDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT21#v=onepage&q&f=false |accessdate=7 January 2020}}</ref>}} |
:{{talk quote|In the collective consciousness of Kerala is the myth of king Mahabali, during whose reign, all human beings were equal, and there were no lies and no deceit. The legend describes how Gods, jealous of the reign of Mahabali, tricked him to the underworld, but had to grant him the boon of being able to visit his beloved subjects once a year. Thus every year, during Onam, the national festival of Kerala, all Keralites, irrespective of caste, creed or religion, welcome the 'annual visit' of Mahabali. They cherish the poetic memories of a bygone era – a period of equity and equality. In effect, the dreams of an egalitarian society find their finer expressions in celebrating Onam during the most beautiful season of the year.<ref name="Ramanathaiyer">{{cite book |last1=Ramanathaiyer |first1=Sundar |last2=MacPherson |first2=Stewart |title=Social Development in Kerala: Illusion or Reality? |date=2018 |publisher=Routledge |isbn=978-1138715752 |page=21 |edition=1st |url=https://books.google.co.in/books?id=2MVKDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT21#v=onepage&q&f=false |accessdate=7 January 2020}}</ref>}} |
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I hope that clarifies why I am asking for multiple high quality, peer-reviewed sources that conclude it is a "secular festival and has nothing to do with Hinduism/any religion". You have yet to provide one. [[User:Ms Sarah Welch|Ms Sarah Welch]] ([[User talk:Ms Sarah Welch|talk]]) 13:13, 8 January 2020 (UTC) |
I hope that clarifies why I am asking for multiple high quality, peer-reviewed sources that conclude it is a "secular festival and has nothing to do with Hinduism/any religion". You have yet to provide one. [[User:Ms Sarah Welch|Ms Sarah Welch]] ([[User talk:Ms Sarah Welch|talk]]) 13:13, 8 January 2020 (UTC) |
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:First, regarding "cites [5]-[11]", you mentioned that "these authors and numerous mainstream sources explicitly say it is a "Hindu festival"," which is not correct. Out of all these cited sources, only Osella & Osella mention it that way (in one of their relevant sources) in a Hindu-Muslim context, which you are taking out of context, as I've already mentioned in the previous comment. BTW, we shouldn't indulge in synthesis on the basis of what we consider as a "well-accepted Hindu mythology" – just paraphrase what the sources state. |
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:Second, I mentioned that the mainstream sources "emphasize the secular nature" of Onam. And this is clear from the quotes provided by me above. As I said earlier, we can develop consensus regarding the exact wording. |
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:Third, although I don't know regarding ISDA journal, the source is in-depth and its author is credentialed. Others may be familiar with this journal. So we should wait for their inputs as well. |
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:Fourth, please stop editing/refactoring others' comments (see [[WP:TPO]]): the quote in question isn't a copyvio. In fact, if it is a copyvio, then it should be removed instead of crossing it out. And I guess neither Bhalla nor 'Star Publications' has ever indulged in plagiarism. Just because some authors published plagiarised works through Gyan doesn't mean that Bhalla is also a plagiarizer. But the point made by you is noted. In fact, it is enough to make your point. And others can judge the source accordingly. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Onam&diff=933699977&oldid=933694781 Your refactoring] also created confusion earlier in this section. |
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:Fifth, regarding "cite [3]", you are misrepresenting my comments. Regarding the ones provided by you, I stated that they are "neither remotely connected to the field in question nor giving any context of their one-liners". But the MacPherson's source is entirely focusing on Kerala, and it succinctly sums up Onam festival in a paragraph. So I am not "doing the same with cite [3]". BTW, I cited page no. 21, and [https://books.google.co.in/books?id=2MVKDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT20#v=onepage&q&f=false page no. 20] is describing Kerala's religion in the form of caste. So the source has something to do with religion as well. |
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:Sixth, for some reason, you are repeatedly giving the quotes similar to the following: "Onam is a secular festival and has nothing to do with Hinduism". But I have never claimed anything like that. What I am saying is that the lead should convey the mainstream view of the highest quality sources available. And as you can see from the previous quotes, while summing-up Onam, their focus is on equality, secular participation, Mahabali, etc. – they are not linking it with any religion. And this article's lead should also reflect that. Yes, it has been interpreted in multiple ways by multiple groups in different eras, and we should explain them with proper context in the body. |
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:Finally, let's wait for others' opinions. Thanks. - [[User:NitinMlk|NitinMlk]] ([[User talk:NitinMlk|talk]]) 22:16, 8 January 2020 (UTC) |
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==Secular festival== |
==Secular festival== |
Revision as of 22:16, 8 January 2020
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Onam festival
BJP-RSS propaganda in Onam article to make it more Hindu than secular and to alter its myth by diminishing the importance of Mahabali over Vamana. Ms Sarah Welch is restoring problematic content by Snowcream without discussion. Onam is celebrated all over Kerala irrespective of religion. 2409:4073:30D:F96:6431:C9DF:B49E:479D (talk) 06:18, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
- I would agree, I have reverted some of the problematic content, Waiting to hear back from MSW. --Happy Holidays! ᗙ DBigXrayᗙ 08:52, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
- Please read the cited sources. We need to reflect what the secondary and tertiary reliable sources are stating. Many of these cites, already have embedded quotes. In light of these sources, please explain any mass reverts you make. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 01:10, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
- can you please stop edit warring. You added something controversial and it has been reverted. Please make consensus before re-adding this --Happy Holidays! ᗙ DBigXrayᗙ 01:23, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
- the ip has raised some valid concerns on pov and I find them serious. This needs to be discussed. --Happy Holidays! ᗙ DBigXrayᗙ 01:36, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
- What are those concerns and how are they valid given what the cited scholarly sources are stating? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 01:51, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
- please read this thread carefully. You should be able to see the concern. --Happy Holidays! ᗙ DBigXrayᗙ 02:01, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
- DBigXray: We do not change content because someone alleges something is BJP-RSS propaganda, or is or is not X-Y-Z. Wikipedia is not a blog or an advocacy platform. We summarize high quality RS, preferably peer-reviewed scholarly sources. Let us look at the sources cited with the lead sentence:
- Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica (1974), Quote: "Onam, Hindu festival in Kerala State, India.
- Elaine Chase; Grace Bantebya-Kyomuhendo (2015), Oxford University Press. p. 312, Quote: "Onam (Hindu festival)..
- Caroline Osella; Filippo Osella (2006), Anthem Press, p. 174, Quote: "The 2000 Onam (Hindu festival)..
- Despite what these sources are stating, you deleted "Hindu" from the article without explaining what is wrong with these sources and why not reflect what the secondary and tertiary sources are stating. In the main article, as well, you have deleted sources and sourced content. Why delete Hindu, when the RS saying it is a Hindu festival (the lead and the article does acknowledge the broader, cultural side of this featival)? What was wrong with these sources or the summary? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 02:35, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
- DBigXray: We do not change content because someone alleges something is BJP-RSS propaganda, or is or is not X-Y-Z. Wikipedia is not a blog or an advocacy platform. We summarize high quality RS, preferably peer-reviewed scholarly sources. Let us look at the sources cited with the lead sentence:
- please read this thread carefully. You should be able to see the concern. --Happy Holidays! ᗙ DBigXrayᗙ 02:01, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
- What are those concerns and how are they valid given what the cited scholarly sources are stating? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 01:51, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
- Please read the cited sources. We need to reflect what the secondary and tertiary reliable sources are stating. Many of these cites, already have embedded quotes. In light of these sources, please explain any mass reverts you make. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 01:10, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
- Comment.DBigXray I also got the same message from the IP and I’m fully convinced that these editors are violating WP:NPOV and WP:ADVOCACY by cherry picking the sources.Their additions sounds exactly how the IP alleges. The festival commemorates the Vamana avatar of Vishnu this is a sheer RSS propaganda 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and many BJP leaders were openly saying this for many years now.1 As a keralite, I know the reaction from kerala toward this.1. Akhiljaxxn (talk) 05:38, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
- Akhiljaxxn: We rely on scholarship, avoid blogs/newspaper/opinion columns. On admin Bishonen's talk page, earlier this year, we had a discussion about the reliability of Indian news media. There was a general concern about their media's reliability and Paid news in India (contact User:WBG for more). The Indian media unreliability issues apply to both the media that supports BJP-RSS and the media that supports their left/Congress/another political party. We should avoid these for pretty much everything except current news and such information. Scholarly sources are particularly important for topics such as this article, as WP:HISTRS and many topics. A relevant note from an admin, from another wikipedia-article-talk page:
Newspapers can be RS for news, but not RS for history / other information
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Journalists virtually never have scholarly training in history/anthropology/ethnography/etc. — they're generalists as far as this kind of thing goes, not knowing more than what's needed for background purposes, and as such we mustn't consider them reliable sources for such fields. Exceptions can exist, of course, and we can't discount a journalist merely because of his job (e.g. he could be an avocational anthropologist so dedicated to the field that he's a member of a learned society), but even then we should only trust his writings if they've gotten reviewed by other experts; the most scholarly journalist will have his newspaper writeups reviewed by nobody except the newspaper's editors, whom again we can trust to know a lot about news reporting but we can't trust to know much of anything about "olds" reporting. We can take newspaper reports as authoritative if we're writing a middle school report for our teachers, but encyclopedia writing demands better sources: whether they're written by professional academics, journalists with a lot of experience in scholarly work, or anyone else, they need to have gone through a scholarly review process. – Nyttend |
- With that caution, please look at the links you gave: all Indian newspaper (these include some known problematic ones). Contrast these with the independent scholarly sources cited and the summary in this article. As an example, consider the list of three RS – Encyclopedia Britannica, Oxford Univ Press, etc – that I provided above. It is simply wrong and inconsistent with our community-agreed content guidelines to suppress what these multiple scholarly sources are stating, e.g. this is a Hindu festival. There is also no need to repeat what is already in the lead/main article, e.g. harvest festival, broadly observed cultural festival, etc - all derived from WP:RS. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 06:21, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
- Akhiljaxxn I agree with you that this is a blatant Hindu fundamentalist propaganda (RSS propaganda) and this is not the first or the only page where Ms Sarah Welch has been doing this. The usual tactics used here are WP:CHERRY PICKING to push the Hindu fundamentalist side of the story followed by massive filibustering on the talk page and wiki lawyering on admin noticeboards such as ANI and Edit warring. The festival is celebrated by Christians and Muslims as well and hence it is rather misleading to blatantly call it a Hindu festival and CHERRYPICK sources that say that. Reliable sources (See below) say that it is harvest festival for Mahabali, but these sources doesnt help to push the Hindu Fundamentalist POV so it is understandable that they are being sidelined here.
--Happy Holidays! ᗙ DBigXrayᗙ 11:05, 29 December 2019 (UTC)This (Onam) 10-day harvest festival welcomes home the mythical King Mahabali [1]
References
- ^ Seow, Lynelle (2017). CultureShock! India. Marshall Cavendish International Asia Pte Ltd. ISBN 978-981-4771-98-6. Retrieved 29 December 2019.
- Culture Shock is not a scholarly publication, you call a tourist guide with chapters on getting visa, hotel accommodations, etc as a reliable source. You ignore three academic sources I provided above, use a tourist guide to question motives of other editors? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 12:30, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
References
- ^ Vasudevan, Biju (February 23, 2017). "The Onam Rhyme and Other Passages from Time: A Collection of Traditional English Poetry". Educreation Publishing – via Google Books.
- ^ Morrill, Ann (December 29, 2009). "Thanksgiving and Other Harvest Festivals". Infobase Publishing – via Google Books.
- ^ Mohapatra, J. (December 24, 2013). "Wellness in Indian Festivals & Rituals: Since the Supreme Divine Is Manifested in All the Gods, Worship of Any God Is Quite Legitimate". Partridge Publishing – via Google Books.
- ^ Mukherjee, Nita. "Comprehension 3 (Rev.)". Ratna Sagar – via Google Books.
- ^ "Journal of Kerala Studies". University of Kerala. December 29, 1982 – via Google Books.
- ^ Coogan, Michael D.; Coogan, Michael David (December 29, 1998). "The Illustrated Guide to World Religions". Oxford University Press – via Google Books.
- ^ "Indian Anthropologist". Indian Anthropological Association. December 29, 1977 – via Google Books.
- ^ Lukose, Ritty A. (November 13, 2009). "Liberalization's Children: Gender, Youth, and Consumer Citizenship in Globalizing India". Duke University Press – via Google Books.
- ^ Laveesh, Bhandari (December 29, 2009). "Indian States at a Glance 2008-09: Performance, Facts and Figures - Kerala". Pearson Education India – via Google Books.
- ^ "Business India". A. H. Advani. October 29, 2000 – via Google Books.
- ^ "History of Malayalam Literature" – via books.google.co.in.
- ^ "Onam" – via books.google.co.in.
- DBigXray: you used what you now admit is a kind of a tourist guide (first calling it RS), to personally attack me with "a blatant Hindu fundamentalist propaganda". That is wrong. Have you carefully read these sources? Or just done a google search for the two words: Onam harvest? It will take time to carefully read these sources. A quick check of a few I did, and I see Onam links to Hinduism are discussed in these new ones too. For example, the Coogan's source published by the Oxford University Press says on page 152 (Chapter title is Hinduism: Sacred Time), amongst other things, that Onam is a harvest festival (...) celebrated in the honor of god Vishnu.) A festival can be a Hindu festival and a harvest festival. Is there any source that states that it is "not a Hindu festival"? Have you read the article carefully. Both the lead and the main article, before your recent edits, already stated that Onam is a harvest festival too. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 13:12, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
- Ms Sarah Welch you are deliberately twisting my statement. I had said that "this (CONTENT) is a blatant Hindu fundamentalist propaganda (RSS propaganda) " I never said that "Ms Sarah Welch is a a blatant Hindu fundamentalist propaganda" There obviously a huge difference between the two lines. Check out this report from The Hindu to understand why I called it Propaganda. Also where did I used the source Culture shock ? Here in the talk page and not in the article. I added it here on the talk page as I quickly found it. Yes, take your time and review all of them. --Happy Holidays! ᗙ DBigXrayᗙ 19:45, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
- DBigXray: You now allege "Also where did I used the source Culture shock ? Here in the talk page and not in the article." But this edit-diff clearly shows that you "did add" that Culture shock source to the article! It is just a fact, that you now deny you did. You also removed the Encyclopedia Britannica source while doing so. That is puzzling because that tourist guide (ref name="Seow") you added to the article is neither a better or equivalent to the Encyclopedia Britannica. You wrote, "this is a blatant Hindu fundamentalist propaganda (RSS propaganda) and this is not the first or the only page where Ms Sarah Welch has been doing this". This is a false, harassing and defamatory allegation from you, inappropriate on an article talk page, and one without edit-diff. On the newspaper link, I already addressed the newspapers-as-sources issues above. This article should not mirror newspapers, rather it should rely on scholarly sources. Yes, I would welcome and support a short summary of any news related to Onam and local nationalist/leftist/other politics or disputes to the extent it is not already covered in the article and per our content guidelines. I have already checked the sources again, including Coogan etc you linked. They all mention the Hindu links. They also mention "harvest festival" as has this article for a long while. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 20:39, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
- DBigXray: After you deleted scholarly sourced content and sources in recent edits, you also added a source published by "Partridge Publishing" (#3 in your list above), which is a self-publishing source and therefore unreliable. I plan to remove that WP:SPS and any other non-RS, after a respectful wait for any clarifications from you or other editors. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 20:52, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
- And I am waiting for you to review and tell me which of the above sources you will accept to replace Seow Lynelle.--Happy Holidays! ᗙ DBigXrayᗙ 20:58, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
- It is disappointing that you did not self-revert those bad sources you added, for so long, even after you agreed the Lynelle source you added "is a kind of tourist guide". Please reread my reply, with particular attention to my comments on Encylopedia Britannica, what I found in the Coogan etc sources in your list, and the need to follow scholarship. You just can't delete scholarly sources you don't like and replace them with WP:SPS or tourist guide sources such as the ones you have inserted instead. Also note that when disputes arise, the long-standing stable article version with scholarly sources is generally preserved. You need consensus to make changes as much as I or another editor needs consensus. We are equal, and you must follow the same principles and rules that you ask me or others to. If you disagree, you are welcome to try whatever you consider as the appropriate next step: dispute noticeboards / ANI / etc. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 01:07, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
- Ms Sarah Welch, I had said "And I am waiting for you to review and tell me which of the above sources you will accept to replace Seow Lynelle". Do you want me to explain what that line means ? instead of responding to my Q, you went ahead and started adding the content into the article ignoring this ongoing discussion. This is highly disruptive of you. And I would still want to hear back on "which of the above sources you will accept to replace Seow Lynelle". Happy New Year! ᗙ DBigXrayᗙ 16:40, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
- It is disappointing that you did not self-revert those bad sources you added, for so long, even after you agreed the Lynelle source you added "is a kind of tourist guide". Please reread my reply, with particular attention to my comments on Encylopedia Britannica, what I found in the Coogan etc sources in your list, and the need to follow scholarship. You just can't delete scholarly sources you don't like and replace them with WP:SPS or tourist guide sources such as the ones you have inserted instead. Also note that when disputes arise, the long-standing stable article version with scholarly sources is generally preserved. You need consensus to make changes as much as I or another editor needs consensus. We are equal, and you must follow the same principles and rules that you ask me or others to. If you disagree, you are welcome to try whatever you consider as the appropriate next step: dispute noticeboards / ANI / etc. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 01:07, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
- And I am waiting for you to review and tell me which of the above sources you will accept to replace Seow Lynelle.--Happy Holidays! ᗙ DBigXrayᗙ 20:58, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
- Ms Sarah Welch you are deliberately twisting my statement. I had said that "this (CONTENT) is a blatant Hindu fundamentalist propaganda (RSS propaganda) " I never said that "Ms Sarah Welch is a a blatant Hindu fundamentalist propaganda" There obviously a huge difference between the two lines. Check out this report from The Hindu to understand why I called it Propaganda. Also where did I used the source Culture shock ? Here in the talk page and not in the article. I added it here on the talk page as I quickly found it. Yes, take your time and review all of them. --Happy Holidays! ᗙ DBigXrayᗙ 19:45, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
- DBigXray: you used what you now admit is a kind of a tourist guide (first calling it RS), to personally attack me with "a blatant Hindu fundamentalist propaganda". That is wrong. Have you carefully read these sources? Or just done a google search for the two words: Onam harvest? It will take time to carefully read these sources. A quick check of a few I did, and I see Onam links to Hinduism are discussed in these new ones too. For example, the Coogan's source published by the Oxford University Press says on page 152 (Chapter title is Hinduism: Sacred Time), amongst other things, that Onam is a harvest festival (...) celebrated in the honor of god Vishnu.) A festival can be a Hindu festival and a harvest festival. Is there any source that states that it is "not a Hindu festival"? Have you read the article carefully. Both the lead and the main article, before your recent edits, already stated that Onam is a harvest festival too. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 13:12, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
DBigXray: Instead of your bossy and silly hounding with "Do you want me to explain what that line means", perhaps you can try reading my lines above carefully and understanding those lines. You can also try dispute/admin noticeboards if you insist on using non-RS such as tourist guides/self-published source while deleting scholarly sources, like the one you added again today. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 17:07, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
- Now, you have called me "bossy", "silly" and accused me of "hounding". these are all blatant Personal Attacks and I ask you to strike them off or else I will be forced to seek admins to take action. I will not tolerate your personal attacks any more. Are you claiming that all of the 12 refs I listed above are non-RS ? I am not sure how your comment above answers my question on these 12 refs. Please clarify. --Happy New Year! ᗙ DBigXrayᗙ 13:58, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
New year
The Onam festival marks the Malayali new year.[1]
References
- ^ Denise Cush; Catherine Robinson; Michael York (2012). Encyclopedia of Hinduism. Routledge. pp. 573–574. ISBN 978-1-135-18978-5.
I note that Ms Sarah Welch has used the ref and stated in the article (diff)
"It is the New Year day for Malayali Hindus."
One wonders on this edit, is this not blatant hindu POV Pushing ? --Happy Holidays! ᗙ DBigXrayᗙ 10:42, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
- First of all, you misquote the edit and misrepresent. The sentence had two cites (diff). Here is the exact, complete version (I have filled in the first cite's full details):
References
- ^ Filippo Osella; Caroline Osella (2013). Islamic Reform in South Asia. Cambridge University Press. p. 152. ISBN 978-1-107-27667-3.
- ^ Denise Cush; Catherine Robinson; Michael York (2012). Encyclopedia of Hinduism. Routledge. pp. 573–574. ISBN 978-1-135-18978-5.
- The first one supports that text. The article on Onam in the second source is written in a different style and we avoid Copyvio and summarize in our own words. In case you missed, the second source is an Encylopedia of Hinduism. Neither of these sources state or imply that Onam is the new year day for Malayali Christians or Malayali Muslims. Your projecting/questioning motives on the article talk page is inappropriate. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 12:55, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
- So please clarify your actual intentions behind ignoring the second source and framing your prose on first. I am sincerely curious.--Happy Holidays! ᗙ DBigXrayᗙ 12:56, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
- I already did. Reread my reply. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 13:14, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
- Ms Sarah Welch, do not change or twist the facts with an excuse of avoiding WP:COPYVIO. If there are no other ways of saying something then it is said as such. Please familiarize yourself with WP:LIMITED. And in this case you could have easily phrased it as "Onam festival is celebrated as New year day by the Malayalee people."--Happy Holidays! ᗙ DBigXrayᗙ 13:34, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
- Again reread my reply. The sources are clearly discussing it in the context of Hindu Malyalis, while one source indeed has the simpler sentence. This is not a big deal though. I have revised the sentence to "It is the New Year day for Malayalis.[13][14]", a version that is fine with me. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 01:07, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
- Ms Sarah Welch, do not change or twist the facts with an excuse of avoiding WP:COPYVIO. If there are no other ways of saying something then it is said as such. Please familiarize yourself with WP:LIMITED. And in this case you could have easily phrased it as "Onam festival is celebrated as New year day by the Malayalee people."--Happy Holidays! ᗙ DBigXrayᗙ 13:34, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
- I already did. Reread my reply. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 13:14, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
Cultural festival section
DBigXray: With this edit you changed the text from,
The festival is also celebrated by Christians of Kerala, in its churches.[1]
to the following text:
The festival is also celebrated by Christians and Muslims of Kerala.[1]
References
- ^ a b Selvister Ponnumuthan (1996). The Spirituality of Basic Ecclesial Communities in the Socio-religious Context of Trivandrum/Kerala, India. Gregorian Press. pp. 210–212. ISBN 978-88-7652-721-0.
I have checked the source again, and I could not find any support for that change. Can you identify which para in the three cited pages in the Ponnumuthan source, directly or indirectly, support your change. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 13:24, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
- page 289. And here is another one.[1] Happy Holidays! ᗙ DBigXrayᗙ 13:17, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
References
- ^ Chaturvedi, B. K. (2001). Faiths, fairs & festivals of India. Abhishek Publications. ISBN 978-81-7245-176-9. Retrieved 30 December 2019.
celebrated by Hindus, Muslims and Christians and begun to symbolize the hopes and aspirations of all the Malayalis
- DBigXray: If you carefully look at the two versions above and the change you made, you added "Muslim" and alleged it is supported by the Ponnumuthan source. I do not see the word Muslim anywhere on page 289. By inserting the word "Muslim" and thereby alleging Ponnumuthan states "Onam is celebrated by Muslims", you misrepresented the source. The new Chaturvedi source you cite is fringe-y and questionable. B. K. Chaturvedi is non-RS, casual non-scholarly writer, one who has written books on astrology, tourist centers, etc. So your Chaturvedi source is questionable, not RS. If you can find high-quality scholarly sources, I would welcome adding Muslims celebrate Onam somewhere separately, with an explanation of the rituals they follow / celebrations they participate in. Since you have been given an opportunity to explain, and you have failed to show where Ponnumuthan supports the word Muslim, I am going to remove your OR and your improper edit that misrepresented the Ponnumuthan source. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 00:19, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
Secular Festival
The secular festival is actively celebrated by people of all religions and communities in the state.[1]
References
- ^ Mohapatra, J. (2013). Wellness in Indian Festivals & Rituals: Since the Supreme Divine Is Manifested in All the Gods, Worship of Any God Is Quite Legitimate. Partridge Publishing. ISBN 978-1-4828-1689-1. Retrieved 29 December 2019.
MSW, please explain why you are removing this. --Happy New Year! ᗙ DBigXrayᗙ 14:59, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
- DBigXray: I already explained it above. It is a self-published source (see WP:SPS). My edit comment too pointed out the SPS-issue. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 15:48, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
Vaman
Hi MSW, Stop edit warring and please learn to discuss your additions on the talk page after you are reverted. It seems you have problem in following WP:BRD. The source does not support what you are claiming here --Happy New Year! ᗙ DBigXrayᗙ 15:50, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
- DBigXray: Actually, in this case, the stable version is one before your recent edits over the last week. You are the one that has made a "bold revert" and so you should discuss it. To aid the discussion, I have already embedded quotes from the two cited sources. These support the content. You wrongly alleged it is OR and is not supported in the source. Please explain/discuss what your concern really is? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 15:54, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
- You are repeatedly adding controversial content that has been objected to by multiple editors on the talk page, that inclued the ip, User:Akhiljaxxn and myself. Without consensus you have no right to restore this content to the article. It is you who is adding the content, so please explain with quotes and refs, why it is needed. I can respond once you make your case for addition--Happy New Year! ᗙ DBigXrayᗙ 15:58, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
- DBigXray: You state above, "the source does not support what you are claiming here". If you read the cited scholarly sources, from which I have added the embedded quote, you will see that you are wrong, and it is a mistake to allege it is OR. Here is what you are edit-warring over:
- Are you insisting that the two cited sources do not have the quoted text? On consensus, please note this content on Vamana etc is not only supported in the scholarly sources, it was in the long term, old stable version. Other editors such as Snowcream have restored it and therefore it is the last best consensus (there was a minor cite error in an old version, later fixed). Just because IP/some editor comes along and incorrectly alleges OR... when any review of the sources shows that it is not OR, we are not going to drop all our content and editing policies. We must reflect the quality RS and scholarship. Once again, I ask you to please look at those two sources, aided by the embedded quotes, then explain what your concern really is? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 16:21, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
- You are repeatedly adding controversial content that has been objected to by multiple editors on the talk page, that inclued the ip, User:Akhiljaxxn and myself. Without consensus you have no right to restore this content to the article. It is you who is adding the content, so please explain with quotes and refs, why it is needed. I can respond once you make your case for addition--Happy New Year! ᗙ DBigXrayᗙ 15:58, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
References
- ^ Cush, Denise; Robinson, Catherine; York, Michael (2012). Encyclopedia of Hinduism. Routledge. pp. 573–574. ISBN 978-1135189792., Quote: "Mythologically, it celebrates the annual recreation of the orderly kingdom ruled over by Mahabali, a demon king dethroned by Vamana, the dwarf avatara of Visnu. Mahabali promised Vamana as much land as he could cover in three paces, whereupon Visnu (...)"
- ^ J. Gordon Melton (2011). Religious Celebrations: An Encyclopedia of Holidays, Festivals, Solemn Observances, and Spiritual Commemorations. ABC-CLIO. p. 659. ISBN 978-1-59884-206-7., Quote: "Mahabali was a descendant of Kashyapa. Kashyapa fathered two sons (...) Vishnu, impressed with Mahabali's devotion, granted him the boon of being able to revisit his former subjects once a year."
- Thank you, you should have added the quotes and the refs while making your first reply to this thread. From this ref and the quote it supports the line that "The festival commemorates Mahabali" and instead you are misrepresenting this to write "The festival commemorates Vaman". Understand that no one is disputing that these 2 are part of the story, but The Malayalees don't commemorate Vaman, in fact they consider him a villian who removed their beloved king Mahabali. So you are way out of line here. It is understandable why local editor an IP and Akhiljaxxn are objecting. 2. regarding Kashyapa, Where does it say that Onam festival "commemorates" the mythologies of Hinduism related to Kashyapa and Vishnu.--Happy New Year! ᗙ DBigXrayᗙ 16:37, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
- DBigXray: You should have read the edit and the embedded the quotes. Neither of those two sources, nor others cited in this article, support your claim "in fact they consider him [Vamana] a villian". Will you be okay if we quote exact or more closely paraphrase the sources? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 16:55, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
- I don't see the justification for the line "the festival commemorates Vaman". The sources are not saying anything remotely close. What am I missing? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:24, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
- Indeed Kautilya3 and I am still waiting for a response to this simple question. --Happy New Year! ᗙ DBigXrayᗙ 20:06, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
- MSW replied below citing Coogan, p.153. It is a passing mention, and in my view, not decisive. I am recommending the Fuller & Benei volume as a decisive source. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:21, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
- Kautilya3 If you see the page history MSW was edit warring to restore the content using "Encyclopedia of Hinduism by Cush, Denise and Robinson" Nowhere did she mention Coogan then. --Happy New Year! ᗙ DBigXrayᗙ 20:30, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Kautilya3: In all this re-factoring and shuffling of replies by DBigXray, you may have missed the draft version I prefer, one posted before your comment. See this. Your comments on it, or an alternate version would be helpful. Almost all secondary scholarly sources mention Mahabali and Vamana (as does the Fuller & Benei edited source; the Onam part is a chapter by Filippo Osella and Caroline Osella and they include a good discussion of the politics/practices since the 1940s on pages 143–154, where different political groups have tried to coopt the festival for their own ideologies). Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 20:47, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
- DBigXray: You included Coogan in your preferred list of references, few days ago. I had intended to add Coogan too, but somehow I missed. I was surprised that you were edit warring over what is in one of your preferred sources. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 21:20, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
- I am being wrongly accused (three times so far on this page) of something that I did not do, so it is necessary for me to point this out. After being exposed where she was found misrepresenting the source "Encyclopedia of Hinduism by Cush, Denise and Robinson" and blatantly edit warring to restore the misrepresented content, despite being pointed this repeatedly by me. MSW has now resorted to distracting and lying. Contrary to what she is accusing me of, I have neither refactored nor reshuffled anyone's comment. I only added a section header since the comment by NitinMlk was not on the topic Vaman but more on the secular aspect. After this I also informed NitinMlk about it, where he agreed and thanked me. No one's comment were moved or refactored so far and the discussion was ongoing. After this then MSW appears and starts refactoring and shuffling around comments of others as you can see here where she moved Kautilya's comment, and later refactored her own comment. Made a mess out of it and started blaming me for the refactoring/reshuffling mess she herself had created. When I saw her changes, I restored Kautilya's comment and informed him about it. MSW, you should now stop blaming me for somthing that you yourself have done.--Happy New Year! ᗙ DBigXrayᗙ 22:38, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
- Kautilya3 If you see the page history MSW was edit warring to restore the content using "Encyclopedia of Hinduism by Cush, Denise and Robinson" Nowhere did she mention Coogan then. --Happy New Year! ᗙ DBigXrayᗙ 20:30, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
- MSW replied below citing Coogan, p.153. It is a passing mention, and in my view, not decisive. I am recommending the Fuller & Benei volume as a decisive source. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:21, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
- Well, what I am finding is quite the opposite. The story of Hinduism is that of a Great Tradition that gobbles up various Little Traditions. But here we find a Little Tradition that refuses to be gobbled up and, in fact, rebels against the Great Tradition. "We don't care for your god Vishnu. Mahabali is our hero."
Kerala is often depicted as the land of Asuras (demonic demi-gods), ruled by the demon-king Mahabali, who defeated the Vedic gods (the gods of the early Hindu texts) only to in turn be tricked by the god Vishnu, in his avatar as the dwarf Vamana.[1]
- I don't see how you can be ambivalent about this and claim that both Mahabali and Vamana are celebrated. The tradition is clearly on the side of Mahabali. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 21:38, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
References
- ^ Lukose, Ritty (2010), "Recasting the Secular: Religion and Education in Kerala, India", in Diane P. Mines; Sarah E. Lamb (eds.), Everyday Life in South Asia, Second Edition, Indiana University Press, pp. 206–218, ISBN 978-0-253-01357-6
Kautilya3: Indeed there are Great and Little Traditions here, and there is more in these sources. The Lukose and the Osella & Osella sources describe the modern politics and the disputes around Onam. I am glad that you at least see that there are two sides here, the Great Tradition and the Little Traditions. The NPOV version would state both. In my replies to NitinMlk and Tachs, I welcomed any new scholarly sources they identify and had already started expanding this article to summarize more from Lukose. I would welcome you to take over and revise/expand this article. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 22:00, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
The proposed draft before you stepped in, does mention Mahabali first:
The festival is tied to mythical legends about King Mahabali, whose spirit is said to visit Kerala at the time of Onam.[8][9] The legends link king Mahabali and the Vamana avatar of Vishnu.[1] These mythologies are recounted in the Shatapatha Brahmana, the Mahabharata and the Puranas through the stories of Mahabali, Prahalada and Kashyapa.[2][3][4] According to Nanditha Krishna, the story is likely an allegorical representation of harvest and a thanksgiving offering (Bali) after the summer season (solar Vishnu).[3]
If you have a better way to word it, go ahead. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 22:27, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
Onam as a secular festival
@DBigXray and Ms Sarah Welch: I am not familiar with the topic at hand. But when I noticed this section, I did recall reading a relevant passage in Robin Jeffrey's book, which mentions Onam as a secular festival: [1]
However, aspects of Kerala's unique Onam festival, a harvest celebration held in August-September, also suggested that ideas of equality were not totally excluded from the minds of Malayalis, both high and low. One of the folksongs about the festival begins:
“ When Mahabali was ruling, All people were equal.
” King Mahabali's generosity brought about his downfall, and with it, misery entered Kerala's world. Onam celebrates Mahabali's brief annual return to earth when his subjects do their best to show him that life is as he left it. The festival appears to have been celebrated from at least 1000 AD and to have involved all sections of the population – including the lowest castes and non-Hindus.
I checked a few other sources and found that the Onam's protagonist Mahabali is labelled as a demon or a Dravidian:[2]
The final contestants performed various enactments of the role of King Mahabali, whose benevolent, mythic reign is celebrated at Onam. Kerala is often depicted as the land of Asuras (demonic demi-gods), ruled by the demon-king Mahabali, who defeated the Vedic gods (the gods of the early Hindu texts) only to in turn be tricked by the god Vishnu, in his avatar as the dwarf Vamana. Within the textual tradition, Mahabali makes a transformation from an enemy of the gods to a demon-devotee, who through charity and religious rectitude finds liberation at the feet of Vishnu. Within the larger context of the Bali tradition, interpretations that stress Mahabali as a Dravidian, lower-caste-affiliated demon who contests the Brahmanical pantheon are rife (Omvedt 1998).
Anyway, I have access to the two books cited by me. In fact, out of the scholarly sources cited on this talk page, I have access to the following: [1], [2], [3], & [4]. If anyone doesn't have access to them, then feel free to email me. And after reading them properly, it will be easier to develop consensus. Also, we should obviously stick to scholarly sources – see WP:HISTRS & WP:SOURCETYPES. Thanks. - NitinMlk (talk) 18:36, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
References
- ^ Jeffrey, Robin (1992). Politics, Women and Well-Being: How Kerala became 'a Model' (1st ed.). Palgrave Macmillan. p. 21. ISBN 978-1349122547. Retrieved 1 January 2020.
- ^ Lukose, Ritty (2010). "Recasting the Secular: Religion and Education in Kerala, India". In Mines, Diane P.; Lamb, Sarah (eds.). Everyday Life in South Asia (2nd ed.). Indiana University Press. pp. 213–214. ISBN 978-0253354730. Retrieved 1 January 2020.
- Thanks for joining in NitinMlk. Those are two good sources on the modern politics associated with the Onam festival. The article has already cited a Lukose source. The Jeffrey source provides the "perfect socialist king" and "Socialism" anachronistic interpretations/perspective of Mahabali and Onam (pp. 21-22). This is also worth summarizing in the main article, along with more from Lukose articles. For the lead, we need a balanced summary per WP:Lead guidelines. How about the following version that more closely follows the wording in the sources:
The festival is tied to mythical legends about King Mahabali, whose spirit is said to visit Kerala at the time of Onam.[8][9] The legends link king Mahabali and the Vamana avatar of Vishnu.[1] These mythologies are recounted in the Shatapatha Brahmana, the Mahabharata and the Puranas through the stories of Mahabali, Prahalada and Kashyapa.[2][3][4] According to Nanditha Krishna, the story is likely an allegorical representation of harvest and a thanksgiving offering (Bali) after the summer season (solar Vishnu).[3]
- We can also quote exact. [1] and [2] are in the reflist above, [3] is the Nanditha Krishna source published by Penguin and cited in this article, [4] is the Sarma (1971) source in VIJ, volume 9. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 18:49, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
- The main purpose of my comment was to mention that I have access to some relevant scholarly sources. But I am hardly familiar with the topic. So, as of now, I am not in a position to discuss any change to the article. - NitinMlk (talk) 19:06, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
- @NitinMlk: Since you have access to these sources, it would help if you can check which sources mention (or do not mention) each of the following in the context of Onam mythologies/legends: [a] Mahabali, [b] Vamana, [c] Vishnu, [d] others (who, which religion). Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 00:09, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
- The main purpose of my comment was to mention that I have access to some relevant scholarly sources. But I am hardly familiar with the topic. So, as of now, I am not in a position to discuss any change to the article. - NitinMlk (talk) 19:06, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for joining in NitinMlk. Those are two good sources on the modern politics associated with the Onam festival. The article has already cited a Lukose source. The Jeffrey source provides the "perfect socialist king" and "Socialism" anachronistic interpretations/perspective of Mahabali and Onam (pp. 21-22). This is also worth summarizing in the main article, along with more from Lukose articles. For the lead, we need a balanced summary per WP:Lead guidelines. How about the following version that more closely follows the wording in the sources:
I was asking to email so that I could provide some soft copies, but I haven't received even a single email. Anyway, see edit summary. I have access to one more source which has a (26 pages long) chapter about Onam.[1] And its page no. 139 clearly states that Onam "is celebrated equally by Hindus and non-Hindus
". In fact, it covers the topic thoroughly. Note that there are already a few sources of Filippo/Caroline Osella in the article, but they contain just passing mentions about Onam. – NitinMlk (talk) 14:40, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
References
- ^ Osella, Filippo; Osella, Caroline (2001). "The return of king Mahabali: the politics of morality in Kerala". In Fuller, Christopher John; Bénéï, Véronique (eds.). The Everyday State and Society in Modern India. C. Hurst & Co. pp. 137–162. ISBN 978-1850654711. Retrieved 2 January 2020.
- @Kautilya3: Someone has refactored the chronology and discussion. I have set it back. Please see the proposed draft above. Your review and comments are welcome. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 15:23, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
- (ps: @Kautilya3:) If you would like direct support for "the festival commemorates fifth incarnation of Vishnu (Vamana)" with no mention of Mahabali, please see Michael Coogan, Oxford University Press, page 152 cited in the article and #6 in the list of references above in DBigXray's reply. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 17:46, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
- NitinMlk: Both the lead and the main article already state that Onam is observed by Hindus, Christians, etc. Is there anything you want to be added further? The Chris Fuller source is an RS, by the way. Further, it is unlikely most editors will share their email address openly, for privacy reasons. I have access to these sources. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 15:47, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
I just checked the very first line of the lead and it is misleading. We should mention it as a secular festival instead of a festival "associated with Hinduism". Also, Encyclopædia Britannica is not a quality source, and reliable secondary sources are preferred over it, as mentioned at WP:RS/P – see Encyclopædia Britannica's entry at WP:RS/P#Sources. As we have plenty of such scholarly sources, we should remove the Britannica source. – NitinMlk (talk) 16:11, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
- NitinMlk: That WP:RS/P#Sources entry states, "The Encyclopædia Britannica (including its online edition, Encyclopædia Britannica Online) is a tertiary source with a strong reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" and that editors prefer secondary sources when available. That does not mean "Encyclopedia is not a quality source", and does mean it is an RS. You mention a new source which states "is celebrated equally by Hindus and non-Hindus". But this does not necessarily support "is a secular festival", because a festival may be religious in its mythology/history/popular beliefs/rituals but attract participation by members from other religions/atheists. The two sources you have provided do mention ritual plays based on the Mahabali/Vamana/Vishnu legend, that historic literature links to Hinduism. There is nothing wrong in non-Hindus such as Christians and Muslims celebrating a Hindu festival with Hindus, just like the broad secular participation worldwide of Christmas with the Christians. The article cites many secondary sources that describe the association of Onam with Hinduism, as do other tertiary sources. For example:
"Onam (Hindu festival)" and [Onam is] an annual Hindu festival held in Kerala[1]
"Despite its Hindu associations, Onam is celebrated by all communities."[2]
Onam, a "popular major Hindu festival in Kerala that Orthodox Christians celebrate with much zest alongside Hindus"[3]
"Most of the Muslims celebrate Hindu festivals like Onam, Divali etc; actively participating in the Hindu festivals without any religious feelings but as occasions to rejoice with friends".[4]
"Onam (Malyali Hindu new year) ...."[5]
"Onam Hindu festival celebrated in south India (...)"[6]
- There are many more. The main+lead should reflect such secondary sources. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 17:24, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
References
- ^ Elaine Chase; Grace Bantebya-Kyomuhendo (2015). Poverty and Shame: Global Experiences. Oxford University Press. p. 142 footnote 2, 312. ISBN 978-0-19-968672-8., Quote: "Onam (Hindu festival)" (p. 312), "[Onam is] an annual Hindu festival held in Kerala". (footnote 2, p. 142)
- ^ Cush, Denise; Robinson, Catherine; York, Michael (2012). Encyclopedia of Hinduism. Routledge. pp. 573–574. ISBN 978-1135189792.
- ^ Christine Mangala Frost (2017). The Human Icon: A Comparative Study of Hindu and Orthodox Christian Beliefs. James Clarke Company Limited, Cambridge, UK. p. 46. ISBN 978-0-227-90612-5.
- ^ Journal of Kerala Studies. Vol. 38. University of Kerala. 2011. p. 100. Retrieved 1 January 2020.; [identified by DBigXray]
- ^ Filippo Osella; Caroline Osella (2013). Islamic Reform in South Asia. Cambridge University Press. p. 152. ISBN 978-1-107-27667-3.
- ^ Vaish, Viniti (2005). "A Peripherist View of English as a Language of Decolonization in Post-Colonial India". Language Policy. 4 (2). Springer: 187–206. doi:10.1007/s10993-005-3523-7.
- I have had a look at the above refs. Most of these context-less, passing mentions by non-experts shouldn't have been even cited here:
- 1) Ref 1 is about poverty-induced shame & is authored by a public policy specialist and a psychologist. And the entire book has seven words about Onam, which are obviously written by non-experts of the field.
- 2) Ref 6 is about English language usage, and is authored by an educational linguistics expert. So again a passing mention by someone who has no expertise in the field.
- 3) As far as the article in Journal of Kerala Studies is concerned, we can only comment about it after knowing its author. So full citation is needed.
- 4) Filippo/Caroline Osella's entire book (ref 5) has just half sentence about Onam in a particular context of Hindu-Muslim conflict. Anyway, their in-depth analysis of Onam has already cited by me where they describe its secular nature.
- 5) Cush's source (ref 2) mentions that Onam has "Hindu associations", which doesn't mean that it is a "Hindu festival". But we should give details of those Hindu connections with a proper context in the article's body.
- 6) Ref 3 is one source which calls it a Hindu festival, along with discussing it a bit. So this source seems fine for attributed mention in the article's body. But its Google Scholar Citation Index is zero. It even cites a song from WP's Onam article! BTW, that unsourced song was added by an IP in 2006, and no longer exists in the article. So it seems a bit fringy.
- All in all, you have provided a single seemingly suitable source. On the other hand, I have provided sources by the experts of the field, and they are explaining the secular nature of the Onam after giving proper context. Once you have similar sources (authored by the experts) which call it a Hindu festival while explaining the context properly, then we will discuss about weight and mainstreamness of their views by looking at factors like citation index, e.g. Jeffery's source has a citation index of over 400, Fuller's is around 300, etc. But, as of now, you don't have any such source. Also, nobody said that Britannica isn't RS, but high-quality secondary sources are preferred over it. And we have plenty of such sources here. As far as wording regarding secularity of the festival is concerned, we can develop consensus regarding that. - NitinMlk (talk) 16:51, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
- NitinMlk: Thanks. You missed a few details there. The Fuller & Benei source you like is an edited book, and the Onam chapter is by none other than Filippo Osella and Caroline Osella whom you dismiss above (#5). So if Fuller is reliable, so is #5. I do not see where they are saying it is secular festival. Yes, they are presenting the secular aspects and the politics of it. But, Osella and Osella repeatedly attest Onam as Hindu (see quote below from them). If I remember the Journal of Kerala Studies article correctly, it is by V. Sathish who is the head of history department at the Univ of Kerala Thiruvananthapuram (may be he is editor, and the paper is by Silani or a similar name). The #1 is a scholarly source published by Oxford University Press that explicitly calls it a Hindu festival, twice. #3 is an academic source that is recently published, by a faculty member in Cambridge, UK (she is from Kerala). Your reliance on google search for cite is flawed ( and that is not citation index), because Christine Frost's book was reviewed in The Journal of Interreligious Studies Volume 26 (March 2019). It is a fine source. Viniti Vaish source is secondary, yes the mention about Onam is in the passing – but you can't dismiss it because Vaish, a professor in Singapore, per AGF must have checked her sources. Now that leaves #2, which confirms the "Hindu associations". In contrast, you have yet to present one secondary scholarly source that states "Onam is not a Hindu festival" or "Onam is a secular festival and has nothing to do with any religion". I hope you will use the same critical approach and high standards for verifying the "secular" claim, as you rightfully are demanding for the "Hindu" claim. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 17:37, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
- (ps) So you know, I previously searched for Onam and "secular festival" on paywalled-academic and free scholarship databases. I found only one article by a grad student in Kerala in 2016 or 2017 (it would fail your high standards since no one had yet cited that article, etc). Even that article first explained the Hindu mythology associated with Onam, and how the Big Tradition (Aryan) probably coopted the ancient tradition (probably because there is no textual, archaeological, etc evidence for this theory in Hindu, Jain or Buddhist texts/inscriptions/etc from the Chera era). The article then stated that Onam has evolved into a secular festival with broad participation. If you find and provide quality scholarly sources that state "Onam is a secular festival with no connection to Hinduism", we can include it in this article for NPOV. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 18:05, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
Here is a quote from a paper by Osella and Osella (the same authors in Fuller & Benei edited book):
Probably even more extraordinary was the Onam feast prepared in 2005 by one Kozhikode Muslim family we know well. Here, women took the lead. Watching local cable TV in the run-up to Onam, several women from the family decided that it would be great fun to stage a ‘proper’ vegetarian sadhya. Sadhyas are not part of Muslim culinary repertoires; and Onam is of course not celebrated by Muslims; for it commemorates the victory of the Hindu demon king Mahabali who, in Hindu lore, founded Kerala. Contemporary Islamic reformist ulema even advise Muslims to refuse invitations from Hindu neighbours who may wish to call them to eat on Thiruvonam. From the outset, then, this Muslim family’s plan to make an Onam feast had the air of a daring and naughty secret. [...][1]
[emphasis added, quote on p. 186, see other pages and Onam-related footnotes as well]
In another paper by Osella and Osella, they write:
[...] Onam, the festival commemorating the victory of the Brahman dwarf Vamana (avatar of Lord Vishnu) over the asura king Mahabali (Sivan 1977: 28ff). In the past, the various Rajahs of Kerala received Onam tributes from their subjects and, in turn, attended the festival of Thrikkakara Temple (near Kochi), said to be built upon the ruins of Mahabali’s royal palace. [...] The Rajahs paid their Onam tribute to the main deity, Vamana, each sponsoring one day of the Thrikkakara festival. [...] (see Kurup 1977: 102-3; Sreedhara Menon 1965: 104-5, 170ff; Tarabout 1986: 444-47).[2]
[they also mention in this paper that the contemporary public interpretation that Onam celebrates the annual return of Mahabali, etc]
References
- ^ Osella, Caroline; Osella, Filippo (2008). "Food, Memory, Community: Kerala as both 'Indian Ocean' Zone and as Agricultural Homeland". Journal of South Asian Studies. 31 (1): 170–198. doi:10.1080/00856400701877232.
- ^ Osella, Filippo; Osella, Caroline (2016). "Articulation of physical and social bodies in Kerala". Contributions to Indian Sociology. 30 (1): 37–68. doi:10.1177/006996679603000102.
So, Osella and Osella clearly and repeatedly attest/link Onam with Hindu folklores and celebrations. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 23:29, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
- First, I didn't dismiss Filippo/Caroline Osella's source – I just clarified regarding its context. The quote/content pointed by you is in the context of the recent Hindu-Muslim conflict, whereas the Fuller/Benei source of the same authors is giving an overview of Onam, where they clearly emphasize its secular nature:
Onam is Kerala's most important festival. It is the Malayali New Year (falling between mid-August and mid-September) and it is celebrated equally by Hindus and non-Hindus as a time when the unity of the family and kin group is particularly emphasized.[1]
- So the recent Hindu-Muslim development should be dealt with proper context in the article's body. Similarly, different recent interpretations of Onam by the Hindu groups should also be included in the body with proper context. BTW, I mentioned that "they describe its secular nature" rather than "they are saying it is secular festival."
- Second, we don't need to AGF on linguistic experts, psychologists, etc. as they are neither remotely connected to the field in question nor giving any context of their one-liners, and context is everything in a discussion like this one. In fact, it is embarrassing for me to tell this point to someone like you, as you already know it very well. In any case, we summarize the mainstream views of the experts of the field, and we already have relevant sources to do that. Lesser mainstream sources like that of Christine Frost seem fine for an attributed short mention in the article's body.
- Third, I haven't done an exhaustive search, but there are sources which explicitly mention Onam as a "secular festival", although they seem to be of low quality, e.g.:
Onam is celebrated after the memory of King Mahabali. It is one festival which is very specific to Malayalees (Kerala). It is a truly secular festival in which people of all religions and castes take part with equal zeal. It occurs during the Malayalee month of Chingam, which coincides with Shravan Masa of the Indian calendar and it generally falls between August 15th and September 15th. The festivities for Onam last for 10 days. According to the legend, Onam celebrates the golden age of King Mahabali, a mythical ruler of Kerala.[2]
- Having said that, practically all the scholarly sources read by me emphasize the secular nature of it. Here is one more such source:
In the collective consciousness of Kerala is the myth of king Mahabali, during whose reign, all human beings were equal, and there were no lies and no deceit. The legend describes how Gods, jealous of the reign of Mahabali, tricked him to the underworld, but had to grant him the boon of being able to visit his beloved subjects once a year. Thus every year, during Onam, the national festival of Kerala, all Keralites, irrespective of caste, creed or religion, welcome the 'annual visit' of Mahabali. They cherish the poetic memories of a bygone era – a period of equity and equality. In effect, the dreams of an egalitarian society find their finer expressions in celebrating Onam during the most beautiful season of the year.[3]
- Fourth, you have mentioned an "article by a grad student in Kerala in 2016 or 2017" which "first explained the Hindu mythology associated with Onam". I guess you might be alluding to the following source:
The notion of the ideal king became an Asura and the one who vanquished him became the avatar of the god – liberating him into immortality and subsequent association of several religious practices to the festival – the myth again undergoes critical changes and yet in course of time almost as a revenge against this cultural hegemony of total strangers, Onam has evolved into a highly secular festival with equal participation from all sections of people in the Kerala region and has even become a cultural icon of Malayali people around the world integrating them, becoming the epitome of their cultural glory.[4]
- I have just glanced over it, and it states that "
Onam festival have originated as a simple harvest festival of the native agricultural community of Kerala
". I have no idea regarding this journal, but it is also not mainstream. I guess it might be fine for attributed mention in the body, as its author is a research scholar in the Department of Sociology, University of Kerala. - Finally, as I stated in my first comment on this talk page, I am unfamiliar with this topic. And it will require extensive searching and reading of scholarly sources to get the overall view of this topic. But I do not have time for that, as I have been spending very limited time on this project. As far as this topic is concerned, the participants should first select the highest quality sources about Onam, and then they should fix/rewrite this article while keeping WP:Weight and WP:Mainstream in mind. So far, we have the following sources: [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], & [11]. You can add the sources I missed to this list. Thanks. - NitinMlk (talk) 20:55, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
References
- ^ Osella, Filippo; Osella, Caroline (2001). "The return of king Mahabali: the politics of morality in Kerala". In Fuller, Christopher John; Bénéï, Véronique (eds.). The Everyday State and Society in Modern India. C. Hurst & Co. p. 139. ISBN 978-1850654711. Retrieved 7 January 2020.
- ^ Bhalla, Kartar Singh (2005). Let's Know Festivals of India. Star Publications. p. 15. ISBN 978-8176501651. Retrieved 7 January 2020.
- ^ Ramanathaiyer, Sundar; MacPherson, Stewart (2018). Social Development in Kerala: Illusion or Reality? (1st ed.). Routledge. p. 21. ISBN 978-1138715752. Retrieved 7 January 2020.
- ^ Vandana, M. V. (July–September 2016). "Identifying the Paradox of Nature and Myth in Onam Celebration" (PDF). ISDA. 26 (3): 348. ISSN 0971-2550. Retrieved 7 January 2020.
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- NitinMlk: The article and this talk page discussion already have used cites [5]-[11], so I am at a loss why you are listing them again. None say it is a "secular festival", none say Onam "has nothing to do with Hinduism". In fact, these authors and numerous mainstream sources explicitly say it is a "Hindu festival", such as Osella & Osella (authors in Fuller/Benei source). See the quotes above and embedded ones in the article. Even mainstream tertiary RS such as Encyclopedia Britannica state so (not quoted above). Per WP:Weight and WP:Mainstream, we cannot suppress "Hindu festival" from these and other scholarly sources.
- You are mistaken about your [1] when you write, "the Fuller/Benei source of the same authors [Osella and Osella] is giving an overview of Onam, where they clearly emphasize its secular nature". No. First, the Fuller/Benei source of the same authors is also a field case study, just like their later papers. Please see the last para on page 138 of Fuller/Benei, etc. Second, all their relevant papers blend case study with overview comments about Onam. Third, nowhere in the Fuller/Benei source are Osella and Osella concluding that Onam is a secular festival. Fourth, Osella and Osella discuss Mahabali/Vamana/Vishnu at length (p. 140 onwards). That is all well-accepted Hindu mythology. Fifth, yes, they are saying that this festival is celebrated by Hindus and by non-Hindus. So has this article, in the lead and the body. Sixth, you cannot use the Fuller/Benei source to reach the new conclusion "the festival is secular", because they do not reach that conclusion! That is WP:OR violation. In fact, the authors explicitly state in their other publications that Onam is a Hindu festival, "multiple" times (see quotes above).
- Thank you for noticing the quality problem with your cite [4] (ISDA). For your cite [2] (Star), you admit it too is "a low quality source". Actually, it is non-RS (have you checked Star Publishers? or the author? the author – if he is a real person, is someone who publishes with Gyan Books, a known mirror/plagiarism of websites/WP:PUS; I have struck it out above). That leaves [3] (Routledge). Onam finds a passing mention in that chapter that is about something different, in a book totally unrelated to Onam or religions or festivals, written by socio-economic welfare program researchers. How can you offer such a source, yet in the same reply you dismiss similar sources with "we don't need to AGF on (...)" and alleging "it is embarrassing for me to tell this point to someone like you"! But you are doing the same with cite [3], aren't you?! As far as substance goes, [3] does not say Onam is a secular festival, and it does mention in passing that Hindu mythology about "Gods and Mahabali". We can attribute and mention [3] in the body (Cultural festival section). We can also add a bit more about this legend, how ancient and common it is outside Kerala (see Balipratipada).
- I will be willing to add "secular" label too, for NPOV, if you can find quality peer-reviewed sources that explicitly reach that conclusion. But you have yet to produce one high-quality mainstream source that explicitly concludes "Onam is a secular festival and has nothing to do with Hinduism". Remember, we cannot do WP:OR nor WP:SYNTHESIS; we cannot reach new conclusions that we cannot find in high-quality mainstream secondary and tertiary publications. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 09:31, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
NitinMlk: To avoid going in circles, to avoid OR, and to avoid misrepresenting any source, let us note what the term "secular" means in RS:
I hope that clarifies why I am asking for multiple high quality, peer-reviewed sources that conclude it is a "secular festival and has nothing to do with Hinduism/any religion". You have yet to provide one. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 13:13, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
- First, regarding "cites [5]-[11]", you mentioned that "these authors and numerous mainstream sources explicitly say it is a "Hindu festival"," which is not correct. Out of all these cited sources, only Osella & Osella mention it that way (in one of their relevant sources) in a Hindu-Muslim context, which you are taking out of context, as I've already mentioned in the previous comment. BTW, we shouldn't indulge in synthesis on the basis of what we consider as a "well-accepted Hindu mythology" – just paraphrase what the sources state.
- Second, I mentioned that the mainstream sources "emphasize the secular nature" of Onam. And this is clear from the quotes provided by me above. As I said earlier, we can develop consensus regarding the exact wording.
- Third, although I don't know regarding ISDA journal, the source is in-depth and its author is credentialed. Others may be familiar with this journal. So we should wait for their inputs as well.
- Fourth, please stop editing/refactoring others' comments (see WP:TPO): the quote in question isn't a copyvio. In fact, if it is a copyvio, then it should be removed instead of crossing it out. And I guess neither Bhalla nor 'Star Publications' has ever indulged in plagiarism. Just because some authors published plagiarised works through Gyan doesn't mean that Bhalla is also a plagiarizer. But the point made by you is noted. In fact, it is enough to make your point. And others can judge the source accordingly. Your refactoring also created confusion earlier in this section.
- Fifth, regarding "cite [3]", you are misrepresenting my comments. Regarding the ones provided by you, I stated that they are "neither remotely connected to the field in question nor giving any context of their one-liners". But the MacPherson's source is entirely focusing on Kerala, and it succinctly sums up Onam festival in a paragraph. So I am not "doing the same with cite [3]". BTW, I cited page no. 21, and page no. 20 is describing Kerala's religion in the form of caste. So the source has something to do with religion as well.
- Sixth, for some reason, you are repeatedly giving the quotes similar to the following: "Onam is a secular festival and has nothing to do with Hinduism". But I have never claimed anything like that. What I am saying is that the lead should convey the mainstream view of the highest quality sources available. And as you can see from the previous quotes, while summing-up Onam, their focus is on equality, secular participation, Mahabali, etc. – they are not linking it with any religion. And this article's lead should also reflect that. Yes, it has been interpreted in multiple ways by multiple groups in different eras, and we should explain them with proper context in the body.
Secular festival
I feel it will not help looking into the religious background of the mythological figures. Onam, as a concept, has gone through mainly three types of transformations, through its history. The Aryanization of Onam,[1] originally a Dravidian festival, was the first among them. It was during this phase, the various mythological figures, such as Mahabali, Vamana, Kashyapa, and Parashurama,[2] entered the Onam concept, which was originally a celebration during the good days of harvest when everyone had enough to eat and enjoy. The second phase coincided with the start of Brahminical influence and the original thoughts became influenced on a regional basis. This is one of the reasons the Onathappan is considered a symbol of Mahabali in some parts of Kerala while at certain other areas, it represents Vamana. The third was the recent attempts to bring Hindutva into the festival.[3] A clear evidence is the attempt by a few to mark Onam as the birthday of Vamana, Vamana Jayanthi, and relegate Mahabali to a lower status.[4] There are a number of scholarly books on Onam available in Malayalam, and a few in English such as Onam: A Festival of Kerala, by A. M. Kurup.[5] S. Janardhanan Nair, in his book, Onam and Thrikkakkara, mentions about the origin of the festival as, Every year, on thiruvonam day of the month Karkidakam, ruler under Chera king used to visit the temple. A month later in Chingam, again on thiruvonam day, all kings gathered together at the temple’s premises and used to conduct their annual meeting, along with celebrating Onam festival. Fifty-six Kerala kings were the conveners of the fest and and the responsibility to conduct the festival each day was assigned to two among them. The festivities of atham day was jointly organized by the Kochi and Zamorin Kings. It is still reminisced in Thrippunithura Athachamayam and family celebrations of samuthiri kovilakam, thus pointing to the secular origin of Onam.[6] The fact that the state of Kerala, ruled by leftist parties than any other during it's history, has accepted Onam as the state festival evidences its secular nature.--jojo@nthony (talk) 09:11, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
References
- ^ Gopalakrishnan, K. K. (2011-11-17). "Onam and its backdrops". The Hindu. Retrieved 2020-01-02.
- ^ "Onam 2018: Significance, rituals and all you need to know about the harvest festival". Latest Indian news, Top Breaking headlines, Today Headlines, Top Stories at Free Press Journal. 2018-08-22. Retrieved 2020-01-02.
- ^ "RSS' new mission: Hindutvaization of Kerala's Onam festival". www.thenewsminute.com. 2020-01-02. Retrieved 2020-01-02.
- ^ Harikrishnan, Charmy; Venugopal, Vasudha; Sanandakumar, S. (2016-09-14). "Amit Shah's Vamana Jayanti tweet sparks a row on Onam eve". The Economic Times. Retrieved 2020-01-02.
- ^ Kurup, Ayyappan Madhava (1966). Onam: A Festival of Kerala. Manager of Publications.
- ^ George, Anjana; 2019; Ist, 14:11 (September 9, 2019). "Onam and Thrikkakara Temple: The many legends of Onam, Vamana and Thrikkakara". The Times of India. Retrieved 2020-01-02.
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- Tachs: As I explained in my December 29 2019 reply, we should be cautious in relying on Indian newspapers. We also must avoid taking sides in their political disputes such as those mentioned in their newspapers. Our content policies encourage quality through the use of mainstream, peer-reviewed scholarship and similar high-quality reliable sources. Except for Kurup, your references are newspapers. We cannot suppress or ignore the scholarly secondary or tertiary source on Onam. We must summarize its popular and scholarly description in the RS, in their voice. Yes, we can summarize the topical politics in a separate section, both the POV of the Hindu nationalists and the POV of the Leftists/Socialists as mentioned in the RS. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 15:44, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
- The purpose of my comments were to stress the fact that Onam is a secular festival and the religious colors it acquired later were by actions of people with vested interests. Please do not put too much importance in my citations as they were used only to support my argument, and not to be used as references in the article. I may able able to dig out scholarly book references in Malayalam. My position is that we should be cautious or else our negligence may be the reason for misleading those who reference this article in future. Just to point out one glaring error: the opening sentence of the article, Onam is an annual Harvest festival in the state of Kerala in India and is associated with Hinduism is factually incorrect; it may have been more correct if it is reworded as Onam is an annual Harvest festival in the state of Kerala in India and is associated with Indian mythology.--jojo@nthony (talk) 16:53, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
- Tachs (= jojo@nthony): Please read the scholarly sources already cited in the article and on this talk page. They clearly and repeatedly use terms such as Hindu/Hinduism/Hindu mythology. "Indian mythology" is vague and misleading, since Buddhist/Jain/etc mythologies do not mention Mahabali, Vamana, Onam, etc. If you identify peer-reviewed reliable sources and scholarship with page numbers, instead of the political drama/disputes/discussion in newspapers, we can collaborate to develop an alternate version. As I explained already, we can certainly include more in a dedicated section summarizing the contemporary politics associated with Onam. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 17:32, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
- As per WP:CONTEXTMATTERS, a book on Hinduism would generally be reliable for the Hindu aspects of the festival, not for the secular aspects. For the secular aspects, the Fuller & Benei volume cited by NitinMlk seems pretty decisive. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 19:55, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
- +1. Both the Hindu aspects and secular aspects are important. A summary from the Fuller & Benei source, particularly its discussion of the state's involvement/patronage/politics would further improve this article. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 21:01, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
Tachs: Thanks for the A.M. Kurup reference, which I agreed with you in my comment above to be scholarly. I have now read Kurup, along with his 1977 review article on Onam. Here is what Kurup actually writes:
- The earliest known reference to Onam is found in Maturaikkāñci – a Sangam era Tamil poem. It mentions Onam being celebrated in Madurai temples, when games and duels were held in temple premises, oblations were sent to the temples, people wore new clothes and feasted (The Maturaikkāñci mentions temples of gods and goddesses such as Shiva-Rudra, Murugan, Vishnu, Lakshmi, etc; it also mentions Jain monasteries etc)
- The 9th-century Pathikas and Pallads by Periyazharwar, according to the Kurup source, describes Onam celebrations and offerings to Vishnu, mentions feasts and community events.
- An 11th-century inscription in the Thrikkakara Temple (Kochi) dedicated to Vamana mentions a series of offerings made by a votary over two days prior and on Thiru Onam.
- A 12th-century inscription in the Tiruvalla temple dedicated to Vishnu mentions Onam and states a donation was made to the temple as the Onam festival offering
- A 16th-century European memoir describes Onam. It mentions among other things that Onam is always celebrated in September, the Malayala people adorn their homes with flowers and daub them over with cow's dung believing its auspicious association with goddess Lakshmi.
- Kurup concludes his section on "Onam in history" with, "thus it is seen that Onam was a temple-based community festival celebrated over a period".
- The only Onam mythology Kurup includes in the 1977 review article is one of Bali, Prahlada, Vamana, Kashyapa and Vishnu (the main part of this article does this too; Kurup makes no mention of Onam in the context of Parasurama (though elsewhere he mentions Parasurama); based on Kurup and most other sources, which do not make the Onam-Parasurama connection, I recommend we delete the Parasurama legend portion from this article)
The Kurup source does not support "Onam mythology and history has nothing to do with Hindu deities, Hindu temples or Hinduism". The Kurup source presents evidence and strongly supports that "Onam mythology and history" is linked to Bali, Vamana, Hindu temples and Hinduism. We should cite and summarize Kurup, as well, in this article. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 07:51, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
Check Wikipedia
As the page is protected, can't edit until Jan 11. But saving the link to check Wikipedia for future reference. OkayKenji (there's a ref before punctuation) (talk page) 20:52, 2 January 2020 (UTC)