Emptymountains (talk | contribs) →Lopez quote: response to YT |
|||
Line 1,833: | Line 1,833: | ||
:You said you were going to follow Andi's judgment. So, why did you move the quote when Andi explicitly said he was not going to move the quote? He said he was going to add a sentence in his own words that directed the reader to the section where the Lopez et al. quotes already were. He said to give him a chance to do this. [[User:Emptymountains|Emptymountains]] ([[User talk:Emptymountains|talk]]) 12:17, 3 June 2009 (UTC) |
:You said you were going to follow Andi's judgment. So, why did you move the quote when Andi explicitly said he was not going to move the quote? He said he was going to add a sentence in his own words that directed the reader to the section where the Lopez et al. quotes already were. He said to give him a chance to do this. [[User:Emptymountains|Emptymountains]] ([[User talk:Emptymountains|talk]]) 12:17, 3 June 2009 (UTC) |
||
I am afraid i may have misread his words. However, I think writing something SHORT which points to the controversial usage of the name might be difficult; the Lopez quote itself seems succinct enough.However, I am happy to wait for his judgement. I would remind you however of the unbelievably lengthy debate over two short passages that are really relevant. This hostility (including the threats of reporting) speaks reams. NKT editors are clearly desperate to hide any criticism of the group and consider such criticism to be a 'minority' view. Surely the DL has many more followers than the NKT/WSS and amongst these many know of the NKT (Look at the most popular Google sites). Therefore, such an assumption is misinformed. Also, i cannot agree with Andi that the people who write the article should be insiders. Look at the banning of Scientology editors from the SC article. Would catholics want to put anything in their page about long term widespread sexual abuse? No, WP should seem academic at least. Academics must be objective[[User:Yonteng|Yonteng]] ([[User talk:Yonteng|talk]]) 12:37, 3 June 2009 (UTC) |
I am afraid i may have misread his words. However, I think writing something SHORT which points to the controversial usage of the name might be difficult; the Lopez quote itself seems succinct enough.However, I am happy to wait for his judgement. I would remind you however of the unbelievably lengthy debate over two short passages that are really relevant. This hostility (including the threats of reporting) speaks reams. NKT editors are clearly desperate to hide any criticism of the group and consider such criticism to be a 'minority' view. Surely the DL has many more followers than the NKT/WSS and amongst these many know of the NKT (Look at the most popular Google sites). Therefore, such an assumption is misinformed. Also, i cannot agree with Andi that the people who write the article should be insiders. Look at the banning of Scientology editors from the SC article. Would catholics want to put anything in their page about long term widespread sexual abuse? No, WP should seem academic at least. Academics must be objective[[User:Yonteng|Yonteng]] ([[User talk:Yonteng|talk]]) 12:37, 3 June 2009 (UTC) |
||
::While you also moved the explanatory material that came ''after'' Lopez, you neglected to move the explanatory material that comes ''before'' Lopez. Otherwise, the "therefore" in the Lopez sentence makes no sense. |
|||
::But, if you do move the other explanatory material, you effectively gut the section you moved everything from, as was shown would happen above in the quotation box with the strikethrough. |
|||
::P.S. Giving someone an opportunity to follow consensus and thereby undo their 3RR is not hostility. This would have been the second time I merely warned you about having done 3RR, instead of just reporting you for it. Why would I do that if I was simply out to get you? [[User:Emptymountains|Emptymountains]] ([[User talk:Emptymountains|talk]]) 13:04, 3 June 2009 (UTC) |
|||
:Sorry guys. Busy irl right now. Will hopefully make it in the late evening. Regarding my opinion that the article should be mainly about NKT practitioners' views doesn't mean that i think the article should be written by them. Idealy those views should be taken from 3rd party sources of course. I just wanted to say that any article about a faith-based group should give preference to the beliefs of the group itself and not what other people think about their beliefs or practices. In the article about Buddhism e.g. biggest prominence should be given to what Buddhists think Buddha did and taught and not on what historians or even people of other faiths think what he actually did or what his teachings meant. [[User:Andi 3ö|Andi 3ö]] ([[User talk:Andi 3ö|talk]]) 13:00, 3 June 2009 (UTC) |
:Sorry guys. Busy irl right now. Will hopefully make it in the late evening. Regarding my opinion that the article should be mainly about NKT practitioners' views doesn't mean that i think the article should be written by them. Idealy those views should be taken from 3rd party sources of course. I just wanted to say that any article about a faith-based group should give preference to the beliefs of the group itself and not what other people think about their beliefs or practices. In the article about Buddhism e.g. biggest prominence should be given to what Buddhists think Buddha did and taught and not on what historians or even people of other faiths think what he actually did or what his teachings meant. [[User:Andi 3ö|Andi 3ö]] ([[User talk:Andi 3ö|talk]]) 13:00, 3 June 2009 (UTC) |
Revision as of 13:04, 3 June 2009
Buddhism B‑class | ||||||||||
|
Archives |
---|
|
NKT controversies
Once this article included also some of the NKT controversies. That NKT is involved in controversies is clear from the website of their secretary: http://www.newkadampatruth.org/ It would be good to add these contoversies again. The reader should have an unbiased article. A version of Wikipedia which included the controversies is this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=New_Kadampa_Tradition&direction=prev&oldid=205087153 Since then much effort has been made to eleminate the controversies. What a fun.
- Hi Tenzin. Why are you editing 'anonymously' as some random IP address? Strange... As far as including all of this into the article, it seems to me that all of this stuff is more than 10 years old. We have all grown and matured individually in the last 12 years. In a similar way, the NKT has also grown and matured over this same period of time. All of this stuff is yesterday's news (or I should say, views).
- I think we need to be careful to not grasp at the past as being permanent, and continue to fight yesterday's battles. Everything is different now, and there are plenty of contemporary things one can discuss of the NKT, so I see no need for this article to enter into some time warp just because some of its editors cannot escape their own. I understand you have been out of the NKT for a while now. Perhaps you do not realize that the NKT that appears to your mind from the image you have of a decade ago no longer has any relationship with the present. I know you think that you are 'protecting people' by warning them against the 'evils' of the NKT. But why do you pretend to be 'neutral' and 'objective', hiding behind academics and articles you know are not neutral and objective (even if the periodical in which they appear is generally good)? Why do you spend so much of your time criticising other Mahayana traditions? Don't you have other, more useful things to do with your time than break your bodhisattva vows?
- You know as well as we do that the Dharma that Geshe Kelsang teaches is perfectly correct, even if there is some disagreement about the DS issue. Yes, we all agree that the NKT had some growing pains in its early years, but it has also shown a remarkable learning curve for improving and leaving behind some of the excesses that come from some teachers' enthusiasm getting ahead of their wisdom and skilful means. But don't we all go through this? I know in your mind you think your intention is good, but at some point do you not have to ask yourself "when is it time to let go and move on?"
- It's kindof like many couples who are too averse to be together, but too attached to break up. So they stay in this intermediate hell for a long long time. If the NKT wasn't for you, fine. Move on (completely) to something else. Perhaps you can ask yourself, "what really is the difference between what I am doing and the person who never stops criticising their ex-girlfriend for the rest of their life?" It seems like you feel the need to divisively tell every future boyfriend what a devil your ex-girlfriend is to justify your own decision to leave. This is really not necessary, when you think about it.
- Different people have different karma, and different things work for them. Yes, the NKT doesn't work for some people, and like any relationship, there is sometimes some painful break-ups (the Survivors Group)). But what is particularly unique about this that justifies an endless 'crusade'? A great Buddhist master once said, "there is not a single Dharma mind that feels 'justified'. All Dharma minds are open and spacious. So if you feel like you are 'justified' in what you are doing, you are necessarily not following a Dharma mind." This has really helped me. Perhaps there is some wisdom in this that you appreciate.
- One final word, the purpose of Wikipedia is not to serve as an ideological battleground. We have plenty of other platforms for such things, so I see no need to sully the noble intentions of Wikipedia by trying to abuse it to advance one's own agenda.
- Just to clarify, please do not misinterpret anything in my comments here as a personal attack. I really do not mean it as such. I respect you very much and understand you have had a difficult history with the NKT. I am merely trying to help you find some perspective on the whole thing to enable you to move on. It must be mentally quite painful to keep reliving the past as if it were still the present (even if you do not admit it to yourself). Please feel free to ignore my comments and I apologize if I have caused any offense. It has not been my intention. Your friend, --Dspak08 (talk) 07:05, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
- Dear Dspak08. Friendship is usually a mutual relationship, not what is imposed on others. I wonder why for NKT editors or NKT observers like you, and some other NKT WP editors who worked hard to remove the controversy section from the NKT Wikipedia article while working diligently to include a preciously not existent Controversy section in the WP Dalai Lama article, it so so hard to accept that there exist different views on NKT. If you are engaged and can bear to criticise the Dalai Lama via self-published sources, I think you should be able to bear different views on NKT as expressed in 3rd party sources. --Kt66 (talk) 13:32, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
The controversy section which has been eleminated includes these facts:
- Interestingly, most of these "facts" are gleaned from kt66/Tenzin Peljor's own websites/opinion pages or from David Kay, who quoted by kt66 almost ad infinitum, was the dubious but dominant opinion offered on the NKT article before other editors decided enough was enough and got involved with other reliable sources.
If you read the about page of the The New Kadampa Truth site you refer to above, it is quite clear that it was *not* made as a result of controversies (every organization has controversies) but as a response to misinformation and false smears that have appeared on the Internet over the past several years since some NKT members spoke out in defence of their spiritual tradition and brought down upon themselves the ire of the Dalai Lama's followers. And ironically, these smears and false allegations appear very largely due to the untiring work of the NKT's principal detractor, kt66, whose work is even mentioned on the site. Do check out the site for more information on this. (Truthbody (talk) 18:44, 20 November 2008 (UTC))
- Truthbody this is just incorrect. The quotes derive from 3rd party sources WP:RS, and these sources are accepted among academics (but not NKT because they can only accept their sources or of 3rd party sources express NKT'S pov.) I wonder how Bluck, Kay, Lopez etc. express dubious opinion. I think, the problem lies in NKT members' active rejection of non-NKT povs.
- The problem can be portrayed as this: while NKT see itself as a "pure old tradition", David V. Barrett e.g. - this is a WP:RS ! - portrays NKT in his book The New Believers as "the most controversial Buddhist movement". The three views of Bluck - this is a WP:RS ! - I added offer three different povs, these in turn offer to the reader an understanding why there exist so much different views on NKT. But also this harmonizing academic perspective has been deleted by the NKT editors. It follows NKT editors active here favour only the NKT pov. Therefore I set now the NPOV template and I think this is just very correct. I am happy to learn that the editors are willing to allow that also other povs - especially from 3rd party academic sources - can be included in this article. At the moment it is rather a advertisement article on NKT as another (rather neutral) editor already mentioned. Best Wishes. --Kt66 (talk) 13:32, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
Controversies
Criticism of the NKT
David Barett has characterised the NKT-IKBU as "deriving from Tibetan Buddhism" and as "one of the newest and most controversial buddhist movements".[1] Bunting stated that "The NKT is an entirely self-referential system. The total dependence on a single charismatic figure is unorthodox in Tibetan Buddhism."[2] Some Buddhists who are critical of the NKT and some non-Buddhists see the NKT as a cult.[3] A former member of the NKT-IKBU has created a Yahoo! group, called New Kadampa Survivors which aims to offer help for those involved as well as for their families and relatives.[4] Members of the group are lay persons as well as nuns and monks.
The NKT attracted international media attention[5] and a lot of criticism for its public demonstrations "for religious freedom" in America, England, Switzerland and Germany (1996-1998) against the Dalai Lama who had advised publicly against the Shugden practice. In a 1998 report, Donald S. Lopez, Jr. remarked on the media attention, the press criticism, and the cult allegation levied at the NKT:
“ | In the summer of 1996, the disciples of Kelsang Gyatso denounced the Dalai Lama for impinging on their religious freedom, and picketed against him during his visit to Britain, accusing him of intolerance. The demonstrations made front-page news in the British press, which collectively rose to the Dalai Lama's defense and in various reports depicted the New Kadampa Tradition as a fanatic, empire-building, demon-worshipping cult. The demonstrations were a public relations disaster for the NKT, not only because of its treatment by the press, but also because the media provided no historical context for the controversy and portrayed Shugden as a remnant of Tibet’s primitive pre-Buddhist past.[6] | ” |
In 1998, the NKT became a member of the British Network of Buddhist Organizations (NBO). Waterhouse notes[7] that when the NKT joined the British Network of Buddhist Organizations, about thirty percent of the other Buddhist groups identifying themselves with the Tibetan Buddhist tradition left the NBO.
The Deutsche Buddhistische Union (DBU) refused membership for the NKT main center in Germany and its 15 branch centers in 2000.[8] The Österreichische Buddhistische Religionsgesellschaft (ÖBR) gave a signal to the NKT that they will have no chance of becoming a member.[8]
On August 22, 1996 the monks of Sera Je monastery, issued a formal "Declaration of Expulsion", expelling Geshe Kelsang from his monastery.[9]
The NKT's continued emphasis on the Shugden practise is another source of criticism. There are many respected Tibetan lamas who have taught the Dorje Shugden practice including Song Rinpoche, Gonsar Rinpoche[10] and Kyabje Dagom Rinpoche[11]. The reincarnation of Trijang Rinpoche, called Trijang Chogtrul Rinpoche, still continues to practice Shugden and was even recognised by the oracle.[12] On the other hand, there are high-levels Lamas who have warned of its dangers. According to the The Dolgyal Research Committee (Tibetan Government in Exile), prominent opponents include the 5th, 13th and current Dalai Lamas, the 5th and 8th Panchen Lamas, Dzongsar Khyentse Chokyi Lodro, the 14th and 16th Karmapas among others.[13] Also Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, a Dzogchen master, "has been insisting on the importance of failing to appreciate the danger inherent in such cults".[14]
Since 1998, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and the NKT have disassociated themselves from their dispute with the Dalai Lama.[15] Geshe Kelsang still continues to grant Dorje Shugden empowerments.[16]
Bunting reported on different troubles that some former NKT members had with the organization. She claimed that the NKT excluded a family for questioning "the total dependence on Kelsang", expelled one member for praising the Dalai Lama and threatened another with legal action if he published his concerns about the movement. She concluded that the movement's response to criticism is "to exonerate the organisation and throw the blame back on the dissenting individual".[2] However, according to Bluck, "Again interviewees strenuously rejected such claims, which they saw as coming from disgruntled ex-disciples whose evidence is biased."[17] Bluck comments: "This is certainly sometimes the case, but there is also a continued unwillingness to acknowledge that the movement itself may have made mistakes."[17]
Geshe Kelsang's replies and views of the controversies
In 1998 Geshe Kelsang Gyatso expressed his views in an interview with Donald S. Lopez, Jr.[18] as follows:
His reason for founding the New Kadampa Tradition:
- "I wanted to encourage people to practice purely. Just having a lot of dharma knowledge, studying a lot intellectually but not practicing, is a serious problem. This was my experience in Tibet. Intellectual knowledge alone does not give peace."
His view on Dorje Shugden and his view towards HH the 14th Dalai Lama:
- "We believe that Dorje Shugden is a Buddha who is also a dharmapala. Problems have arisen because of someone's view [the Dalai Lama's view]. So although we say the 'Dorje Shugden problem', in reality this is a human problem, not a Dorje Shugden problem. This is not a fault of Buddhadharma, not a fault of Tibetan Buddhism, or even a fault of Tibetan people in general. This is a particular person's wrong view [the Dalai Lama's wrong view]. He can keep this view, of course, but forcing other people to follow this is not right."
- Geshe Kelsang replied to Lopez' question: "In your opinion, the Dalai Lama is not a Gelugpa, and therefore has no right to tell Gelugpas which dharmapala they can worship?" with "That's right." Geshe Kelsang clarified further: "It looks as if he humiliates the Gelugpas, as if he destroys the dharma of the Gelugpas. It's not only about Dorje Shugden. If Dorje Shugden is bad, then all those Gelugpa lamas who engaged in the practice of Dorje Shugden are impure. Then, without doubt the Gelugpa dharma is impure. He publicly destroys the Gelugpa dharma, so how can he say he is a Gelugpa lama?"
Further Geshe Kelsang denied that he can see the Dalai Lama as Avalokiteshvara, as many Tibetan masters and the Tibetans do, because the Dalai Lama is "causing the spiritual life of so many people to be destroyed." Asked for the role of the Dalai Lama, Geshe Kelsang replied that from his point of view, the Dalai Lama "is not the spiritual leader of Gelugpas" but rather that "He is the political leader of the Tibetans."
Geshe Kelsang's view of the present Ganden Tripa, the head of the Gelugpas, who has also denounced the worship of Dorje Shugden:
- "He has to follow the Dalai Lama's view, otherwise there is danger. He has no choice, no power. Even my uncle, who is the medium for the dharmapala Dorje Shugden, has to follow the Dalai Lama, otherwise there is danger. They cannot remain within Tibetan society."
About the demonstrations Geshe Kelsang said:
- "Demonstrating was telling him [the Dalai Lama] that he made a mistake. Demonstrating should have been a teacher for him. Demonstrating was loving him, not disrespecting him, not harming him. But he never changed."
About the negative press NKT was confronted with, he said:
- "The New Kadampa Tradition suffered, our reputation was destroyed, and we lost many things. Yes, of course we are suffering, because people believe what the Dalai Lama says. Also many other groups and centers who practice worship of Dorje Shugden including those in Europe and America are also experiencing suffering. Many people are saying Dorje Shugden practitioners are bad, they are a cult or sectarian – they are using bad names because of what His Holiness the Dalai Lama says. In reality, we haven't done anything wrong."
Asked about the four schools of Tibetan Buddhism, Geshe Kelsang replied:
- "We believe that every Nyingma and Kagyupa have their complete path. Not only Gelugpa. I believe that Nyingmapas have a complete path. Of course, Kagyupas are very special. We very much appreciate the example of Marpa and Milarepa [in the Kagyu lineage]. Milarepa showed the best example of guru devotion. Of course the Kagyupas as well as the Nyingmapas and the Sakyupas, have a complete path to enlightenment. Many Nyingmapas and Kagyupas practice very sincerely and are not just studying intellectually. I think that some Gelugpa practitioners need to follow their practical example. But we don’t need to mix our traditions. Each tradition has its own uncommon good qualities, and it is important not to lose these. We should concentrate on our own tradition and maintain the good qualities of our tradition, but we should always keep good relations with each other and never argue or criticize each other. What I would like to request is that we should improve our traditions while maintaining good relations with each other."
Different views on NKT
Bluck offered a number of different angles from which the NKT may be viewed:
- The NKT could be viewed from outside as a movement aiming at what Titmus (1999: 91) called 'conversion and empire-building', with a dogmatic and superior viewpoint, 'narrow-minded claims to historical significance', intolerance of other traditions and 'strong identification with the leader or a book'.
- A more scholarly external view might emphasize instead the enthusiasm, firm beliefs, urgent message and 'charismatic leadership' which Barker (1999: 20) saw as characteristic of many NRMs.
- An alternative picture from inside the movement would include a wish to bring inner peace to more people, based on a pure lineage of teaching and practice, with faith and confidence in an authentic spiritual guide.
About the possible ways how to picture the NKT, Bluck said: "Our choice of interpretation may depend on how we engage with the other viewpoint, as well as the evidence itself, and until recently the NKT's supporters and critics have largely ignored each other."[19]
Mutually agreeable principles for external links section
Hello everyone,
It seems to me that many of the problems we have had with this article is managing the external links. If you look through the links that are listed, except for maybe a few of them (like the BBC and perhaps the general links to kadampa.org and Tharpa.org), all of them can be considered 'propaganda sites' (depending on what side of the issue you happen to be on). I propose we scale back the links section to make it consistent with Wikipedia's mission and principles. So I propose both sides remove the links to what could be considered 'propaganda' sites. When one side wants to put up their propaganda sites, then the other side wants to do the same. So either everybody should be able to (which makes for an ugly and angry links section), or nobody should be able to. Since many of these sites are arguably extremely biased (on both sides), they have no place in a Wikipedia article. So I propose a mutual removal of such links.
We could perhaps agree to some general principles for the external links. As a starting point, I would like to propose the following principles: 1. No propaganda sites 2. Limit of the number of links 3. No blogs
Perhaps you have other principles which you think should be added. If so, please add them.
Please tell me what you think of this proposal? --Dspak08 (talk) 10:07, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
I just removed the link added yesterday to newkampa.com simply because the list is getting too long and I'm trying to keep a balance in the number of links pro and con. Maybe we can discuss which links are most representative of both views.Eyesofcompassion (talk) 14:44, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
I added the view on ordination by Atisha: According to Atisha, the founder of the Kadam tradition, “The training of the Monk is such that of two hundred and fifty-three [rules].”[20] 79.171.63.246 (talk) 15:49, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Anonymous user 77.99.189.64., please heed the links policy stated above -- we are keeping critical and supportive links balance. If you add links, then other supportive links have to be added, and one ends up in a link edit war. Plus your bias is very clear when you say that these links are the most authoritative, as most of the material on that old website has been discredited. Some of it is libellous. (Truthbody (talk) 19:00, 19 October 2008 (UTC))
NPOV and others POV
I made the article more NPOV and included pov from WP:RS because the article relied strongly on WP:SPS and NKT editors removed almost every criticism NKT was or is faced with. I added also at least one link to a website critical of NKT. The reason why I did this is:
- WP is strongly relying on WP:RS and prefers 3rd party sources (like Bluck, Kay, Bunting) than WP:SPS.
- Although NKT may perceive themselves as the continuation of the old Kadam school, this is a contented claim and not according to the facts because the founder is a Gelugpa and was trained as a Gelugpa.
- NKT has many controversies, like benefit fraud, not only Shugden, and also regarding the latter NKT was active already 1996.
- I restrained from including the different controversies again but felt to include a quote from Barrett (WP:RS) and Bunting + a link to one of critics' websites should be sufficient.
- NKT is famous for rewriting their history, I think this is also true for this WP article. I included at least some accounts from independent academic research.
- I also precised the ordination section and added a quote from one of the disputants. I made the passages in that section more neutral by making clear what Geshe Kelsang's views are. The ordination section is too long but at least accurate. It would be good to shorten it.
--79.171.58.252 (talk) 12:20, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
Revert by Truthsayer62
Please check what there is wrong before you revert. The article relied mainly on WP:SPS and were in some passages (e.g. history) just misleading. All what I added belongs to WP:RS and was already in the article but has been deleted by the NKT truth team. Let's look what is factual wrong or not NPOV. Best wishes, --79.171.58.252 (talk) 16:03, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
- Tenzin Peljor, up to your old tricks again, eh? You have included many misunderstandings in the ordination section for example. The understanding of ordination that is included there is according to Geshe Kelsang's explanations but you have chosen to compare it once again to the Tibetan system which is not the system of ordination used in the New Kadampa Tradition. Why do you insist in changing factual information in favour of inaccuracies? This is just one reason why I reverted your edits. Your edits also have not been agreed with the other editors and you are making substantial changes to the article. Please be considerate of the other editors and Wikipedia policies --Truthsayer62 (talk) 16:10, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
- Sorry what are tricks and what has Tenzin Peljor to say? The point is that some passages of the article were misleading and also the ordination section. WP is a neutral Encyclopaedia and states not only what Geshe Kelsang has to say but also what others have to say. Wikiepdia is also no propagnda machine for an organisation where only the PR of the organisation has to been included. Further what is changed by me follows WP:NPOV and WP:RS all these principles were violated by the passages I corrected. So please tell me what exactly is wrong and why the correction should be removed. As there is only ordination by the Buddha it is appropriate to put the NKT ordination into context with the original ordination and to quote what other monastics say about this, much more as this changes is seen as controversial. So I revert again and please argue according to WP guidelines. I was quite generous to not remove the "ordination handbook" because this is not published and is no WP:RS. If we follow truly WP principles nothing from it can be quoted and the section makes a lot use of this unpublished WP:SPS. It will be easy to delete all of it completely but I tried just to balance the section. So don't accuse me of being inaccurate. Best wishes. --79.171.58.252 (talk) 16:35, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
- You are deliberately reintroducing material to show the NKT in a bad light -- this is not the same as WP:NPOV. This article has managed to be WP:NPOV so far, using WP:RS and removing a lot of the WP:SPS originally contributed by kt66, who owned this article for many years, using it as an anti-NKT site until other editors finally stepped in. It is not the case that the article as it presently stands is NKT "propaganda" -- it does a good job of just presenting the NKT in a straightforward manner, while also mentioning its controversies without undue exaggeration or demonization. Are you making these changes and accusing people of propaganda just so you can reinclude kt66's own propaganda and WS:SPS? If you want to bring in controversial POVs, why not use the controversy section on the article -- this is what most articles on religion in Wiki do, as this then keeps the rest of the article factual and clear. As for saying there is only one ordination by Buddha, it is also the case that the shape this ordination takes has shifted over the centuries and throughout different cultures, as Buddha himself intended in his words to Ananda about the lesser and minor rules. NKT ordination aims to work for the NKT and does not claim to be the same as Tibetan ordination -- only you seem to be insisting that it must be exactly the same. You don't need all these polemics and judgements about all sorts of other ordinations in a general encyclopedic article about the NKT -- these judgments would be better in a general article about ordination itself. You were not "quite generous" not to remove the Ordination Handbook -- partly as you don't own Wikipedia, and also seeing as this is the document that mainly explains NKT ordination so it would be very odd indeed not to have it within an encyclopedic article on the NKT!! Please do see www.newkadampatruth.org blogspot for details of the history, intention and authenticity of the NKT ordination if you have not done so. That material could all end up in this article, but everything starts getting very long in that case. (Truthbody (talk) 19:22, 18 November 2008 (UTC))
- Truthbody, the controversy section has been removed there is nothing mentioned straightforwardly. Also the academic povs have been removed to favour a narrow minded NKT version on NKT. If you assume I would "deliberately reintroducing material to show the NKT in a bad light" it shows that you probably "deliberately deleting material to show the NKT in a good bad light". I think it is far more better to bring light into the darkness than letting the darkness by actively ignoring it develop more power. If something dark comes to light, it can be cleared; if light comes to light, just joy. From a NPOV there are just different views on NKT as I tried to offer by quoting Bluck, a well-informed WP:RS. Sadly even his views which are rather harmonizing all the different povs have been removed. That you claim wrongly the article is NPOV may be dur to having overseen the POV passages. -Kt66 (talk) 13:47, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- Sorry what are tricks and what has Tenzin Peljor to say? The point is that some passages of the article were misleading and also the ordination section. WP is a neutral Encyclopaedia and states not only what Geshe Kelsang has to say but also what others have to say. Wikiepdia is also no propagnda machine for an organisation where only the PR of the organisation has to been included. Further what is changed by me follows WP:NPOV and WP:RS all these principles were violated by the passages I corrected. So please tell me what exactly is wrong and why the correction should be removed. As there is only ordination by the Buddha it is appropriate to put the NKT ordination into context with the original ordination and to quote what other monastics say about this, much more as this changes is seen as controversial. So I revert again and please argue according to WP guidelines. I was quite generous to not remove the "ordination handbook" because this is not published and is no WP:RS. If we follow truly WP principles nothing from it can be quoted and the section makes a lot use of this unpublished WP:SPS. It will be easy to delete all of it completely but I tried just to balance the section. So don't accuse me of being inaccurate. Best wishes. --79.171.58.252 (talk) 16:35, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
Anonymous user (from Italy) - you're Kt66, up to your old tricks, right? Stop this senseless vandalism. WP editors are supposed to be civil to one another, but your behaviour is simply inexcusable.
- Lucy (maybe you are not Lucy but name calling seems to be a proper attitude here), not that bad that idea ;-) However, I think the basics of the changes the NKT truth team made have to been accepted but not: 1. inaccuracy 2. violation of NPOV principles 3. favouring NKT pov while excluding other pov, and 4. excluding neutral academic pov and 3rd party sources to favour a narrow minded version on NKT according to the pov of the NKT truth office. --Kt66 (talk) 09:04, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- Kt66, why didn't you just revert the article back to April 12, 2008[1] (which is the only version you can accept anyway). Emptymountains (talk) 19:16, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
- I see no need for this as I respect the work which have been done so far. But I do not accept that the NKT editors favour a one-sided NKT pov, deleted the controversy section (while being very active to include a previously non-existent controversy section in the WP Dalai Lama article), and that they exclude and even repress actively pov the NKT does not share but which are clearly expressed in academic 3rd party sources. --Kt66 (talk) 13:47, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- The article as it stands now is accurate and does not violate WP:NPOV principles -- it is just factual and, where points of view are mentioned, they are introduced as such. It does not favor NKT WP:POV over others as it is simply stating the facts of the NKT as it currently functions. There is a section for controversy, as with most articles on religion and also politics. It does not exclude neutral academic POV though it does limit the overuse of David Kay, who revealed an anti-NKT spin in his university thesis and was very much over-represented by kt66 in his previous articles (kt66 was practically the only editor on the Wiki NKT article for several years.) Also, all this talk of changes by the so-called "NKT truth team" is nonsensical and misleading. The editors on here are individuals doing their own thing, there is no team. There are tens of thousands of people who know about the NKT and who have a right to edit the Wikipedia article on the NKT. You are trying to slur other Wiki editors who do not share your POV by accusing them of working as a team -- to me, this just looks like another example of how you spin things to try and make the NKT look bad. (Truthbody (talk) 19:01, 20 November 2008 (UTC))
- Yes, I have to agree that it feels like KT66 has some strong attachment to his favorite version of this article - April 12, 2008[2]. I thought that most or all of these points have been discussed extensively before, and I don't think there's any question that the article as it stands does not violate WP:NPOV principles. I'll try to add some comments about the various sections to address your specific suggestions, but I don't think that doing a time-warp back to your favorite version of the article is going to get us to a higher-quality article. (What do you think, gang, can we make this an A-class article? =o)
The reasons for the NPOV and factual accuracy template
- The article excludes different point of views on NKT, especially those which mention controversial aspects of the organization, but not only this it also excludes scholarly papers on NKT which exist, and relies instead mainly on WP:SPS made by NKT.
- the history section of NKT has been deleted completely and it looks now like NKT never had a history. This is much more remarkable because the independent and reviewed research by Kay – which is well accepted among academic scholars - offers detailed insight into it and his paper made also clear that NKT is repressing history to favor an own narrow-minded version of it. As NKT was able to delete the connection to FPMT in their own official brochures (see Kay’s research), they were now also able to remove it completely from the Wikipedia article. However, this connection and the split from FPMT are of historic significance and there are enough 3rd party sources which approve this and portray the split.
- Wikipedia relies mainly on 3rd party WP:RS sources and not WP:SPS since April 2008 almost all 3rd party sources have been removed up to the point that even the classification by academics of NKT as a NRM has repeatedly been deleted (it was always me who re-included it anonymously when I stumbled upon the article ). The main source of the article are now NKT sources, which belomg to WP:SPS, including quotes from NKT blog sites. This is not according to WP guidelines.
- regarding the section on NKT ordination. The section is heavily based on NKT WP:SPS and explains the views of Geshe Kelsang as facts and not according to WP:NPOV principles, it also excludes the point of views of other monastics, e.g. the ASA statement.
- the article includes also factual inaccuracies which blur the reader about historical facts, e.g.
- “where he was engaged in a 16-year retreat[7], to teach at Manjushri Kadampa Meditation Centre (then Manjushri Institute) in England.[8] Geshe Kelsang taught the General Program at Manjushri KMC from 1976 to 1987. “
- This is just wrong and misleading in many ways. Geshe Kelsang was not invited to the Manjushri Kadampa Meditation Centre but the Manjushri Institute which was no Kadampa Meditation Centre but a center belonging to FPMT called Manjushri Institute, and Geshe Kelsang as well as the centre were parts of FPMT’s education program before finally Geshe Kelsang and the priory group split from this organization to found NKT.
Although NKT claimed at the New Kadampa Truth site that since NKT editors work on Wikipedia “many new views were introduced and the article is more balanced” the complete opposite can be recognized: All views opposing NKT views were deleted (almost without any discussion) and mainly NKT views via NKT websites were included. Also the NKT claim Kay’s research would be “heavily biased” at their New Kadampa Truth site is plain wrong but may explain why NKT editors deleted the results of his research from the History section to offer a non-history. Kay’s researches are accepted among academic scholars and CESNUR also advised his earlier paper in 1998. The same is true also for Bunting#s Guardian article: Although NKT claims it would be refuted, there is no refutation of her article (which was based on an additional research by Ruth Cohen) but instead it is used in different scholarly papers, like Lopes, David, Bluck too. Because of all these reasons I added the warning templates. Everyone can improve the article until they are not needed anymore. My improvements were made and commented but reverted using weak reasons. The changes I will list below again for discussion, and I am happy to hear what is wrong with them. Thanks and best wishes. --Kt66 (talk) 08:43, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- As I mentioned elsewhere, the NKT article as it stands now is accurate and does not violate WP:NPOV principles -- where points of view are mentioned, they are introduced as such. It does not favor NKT WP:POV over others as it is simply stating the facts of the NKT as it currently functions. There is a section for controversy, as with most articles on religion and also politics. It does not exclude neutral academic POV though it does limit the overuse of David Kay, who revealed an anti-NKT spin in his university thesis and was very much over-represented by kt66 in his previous articles (kt66 was practically the only editor on the Wiki NKT article for several years.)
- Likewise, Bunting's article in the Guardian was discredited even at the time as unresearched and full of an incredible number of inaccuracies, and that was 12 years ago! Since then, almost everything has changed in the NKT in any case, and the current article far more accurately reflects the NKT that exists today than does this one over-used piece of gossipy journalism. Fine to mention it as it exists, but not to pay it undue emphasis, and it needs to be pointed out that it is full of inaccuracies.
- Again, your generic use of the term "NKT Editors" is odd -- are you trying to make people think that all NKT people are clones and follow the same agenda and cannot think for themselves etc? There are tens of thousands of individuals who know enough about the NKT to edit this article, with varying degrees of involvement (or not) with the NKT, and any one of them could be editing this article. Is there a "Dalai Lama" team working on his article or a "Barack Obama" team working on his article? (Truthbody (talk) 19:20, 20 November 2008 (UTC))
- Dear Truthbody. Your opinion is your opinion. From your perspective the NKT article may appear "very accurate". I don't agree with this and I gave reasons and I think they are reasonable. So lets focus on the facts. I am open to learn from you how you would issue a controversy section (which has been removed) and how the other points can be improved, e.g. the section which are not NPOV and were other views (like on NKT ordination) exist. What you state about Bunting is a NKT rumour. Show me were she has been "discredited" as you wrongly claim here, and please explain to me why her article is used in academic researches by Lopez, Kay and Bluck if it is that " unresearched and full of an incredible number of inaccuracies" as you again wrongly claim. If you have a 3rd party WP:RS on NKT which show different perspectives on what Bunting stated, I am happy to learn about it. Just blocking the criticism and putting down the 3rd party sources based on rumours and biased opinions is a strategy but not sufficient to have a "accurate and does not violate WP:NPOV principles" as you wish. When I refer here to NKT editors then I do this to make clear that the editors are members of the organisation and may have a Wikipedia:Conflict of interest (COI). You can posit that I have also a COI but I am no member of any organisation and left NKT many years ago. Moreover I rely on 3rd party sources, while NKT relies on their own WP:SPS. The NKT editors have violated WP policies different times here for instance by "name calling" of an editor (Tenzin Peljor), in Wikipedia such an offensive behaviour belongs to harassment.
- The rules state:
- Posting another person's personal information (legal name, date of birth, social security number, home or workplace address, telephone number, email address, or other contact information, regardless of whether or not the information is actually correct) is harassment, unless that editor voluntarily posts this information, or links to this information, on Wikipedia themselves. Posting such information about another editor is an unjustifiable and uninvited invasion of privacy and may place that editor at risk of harm in "the real world". This applies whether or not the person whose personal information is being revealed is a Wikipedia editor. It also applies in the case of editors who have requested a change in username, but whose old signatures can still be found in archives. Edits attempting to out someone should be promptly reverted, and a request for oversight made to permanently delete the edits from Wikipedia.
- If you see an editor post personal information about another person, do not confirm or deny the accuracy of the information as this would give the person posting the information – and anyone else who saw the page – feedback on the accuracy of the material. Do not treat incorrect attempts at outing any differently to correct attempts for the same reason. When reporting an attempted outing take care not to comment on the accuracy of the information. Outing should usually be described as "an attempted outing" or similar, to make it clear that the information may or may not be true, and the users blocked for outing should have it made clear that the block log and notice does not confirm the information.
- Unless unintentional and non-malicious (for example, where Wikipedians know each other off-site and may inadvertently post personal information, such as using the other person's real name in discussions), attempted outing is grounds for an immediate block. see Wikipedia:OUTING#Posting_of_personal_information
- "Lucy (maybe you are not Lucy but name calling seems to be a proper attitude here), not that bad that idea)" kt66, this is hypocritical. Did you or did you not write those words? There is no one by that name on this article. No one even has that name in their profile. It seems that you are trying to out someone WP:outing and this should be brought to the attention of the administrators as well. (Truthbody (talk) 19:56, 21 November 2008 (UTC))
- You are very right. Thanks Truthbody. It is a fault. You can report it. However, I think your assertion that I am hypocritical is a bit too quick. As you can see I used only a first name, no second name and I used it rather to defend myself after WP:outing seemed to become the standard on this talk page against me. While the user Kt66 has been repeatedly called by a full name (first and second name) and not to defence an inappropriate behaviour but to attack him this is what is classified as harassment. A person is usually only fully identifiable when both names are stated. There is a reason why I din't use a second name. However, it is still a fault and I excuse for it and I am happy if you report it as well. Best wishes. --Kt66 (talk) 22:02, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- "Lucy (maybe you are not Lucy but name calling seems to be a proper attitude here), not that bad that idea)" kt66, this is hypocritical. Did you or did you not write those words? There is no one by that name on this article. No one even has that name in their profile. It seems that you are trying to out someone WP:outing and this should be brought to the attention of the administrators as well. (Truthbody (talk) 19:56, 21 November 2008 (UTC))
- also sock puppets have been used to remove non-wished 3rd party sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikipedia_sockpuppets_of_Wisdombuddha; agreement among of NKT members outside of WP were made to change the articles (see history of Shugden talk page and Admin board notice; and also NKT editors use the same IP address while supporting each other at the talk pages: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Eyesofcompassion&oldid=225884855 and history of this article. All these actions don't give the impression of having an interest on working out a accurate and proper article on NKT but to control the information by rejecting any information not wished to the organisation and its leadership.
- The editors can show that they are willing to cooperate. An good example of cooperation I recognized with user:emptymountains at the Fundamentalism article. Best wishes, --Kt66 (talk) 14:11, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- Please don't repeat false allegations -- there have been no sock puppets. (Truthbody (talk) 19:56, 21 November 2008 (UTC))
- I see, what was the outcome of the investigation? Different user use the same computer? Thank you for your clarification. --Kt66 (talk) 22:11, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- Kt66 - don't be silly. As you well know, the various editors were all attending a conference, hence they were all posting from the same IP address, not the same computer! This was explained to, and accepted by, the admins.Atisha's cook (talk) 22:39, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
- I see, what was the outcome of the investigation? Different user use the same computer? Thank you for your clarification. --Kt66 (talk) 22:11, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
KT66's Suggestions for the different sections of this article
This section was originally entitled: "Changes for the sake to create a proper and well informed WP article based on WP:RS and WP:NPOV". Because the discussion on this page is extremely long and difficult to follow, I'm going to re-name this section and make sure that the formatting is clear, just in the hopes of helping people follow the thread of the conversation. I hope that this is OK with the original author, KT66. Peaceful5 (talk) 08:01, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
@user:emptymlountains:
- Dear em, I don't think that your present changes at the NKT article really improve it. What you do with Clarkes classification is Theory finding. Also in other academic books NKT is classified as a NRM and the reasons you state are your assumptions or taken over form the fundamentalism reason by Kay. But Kay and Prohl are not Clarke and they may have other reasons, you can not confuse this. I will leave you with these changes but if you wish to have a fair article which includes factual and non-biased the different povs I think there have to be some discussions what povs exist and how they should be added. For the time being it is just sufficient for me to have marked the article with the three templates, and to have given the reasons for a further discussion. Hope to cooperate with you and others and to learn more. I will leave this message also at your talk page. Best wishes, --Kt66 (talk) 14:50, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- Dear Kt66. Thank you for writing. As you can tell from my recent edits on the Fundamentalism article, I check all the sources myself to see if what Wikipedia quotes them as saying is correct. I did the same with Clarke's book by looking it up on Amazon and using the "Search Inside" feature to read page 92, which is what is cited in the reference. Clarke says that his classification of the NKT as an NRM is "for reasons of a doctrinal kind rather than a moral kind." He then talks about the differences between GKG and Lama Yeshe, specifically that "The latter, who died in 1984, was less of an intellectual and more eclectic" than GKG. He then states the second reason for the NRM classification (i.e., "Another bone of contention...") as being GKG's dispute of the Dalai Lama's view of Dorje Shugden. He then summarizes things by saying that establishing the NKT(-IKBU) "represents the replacement of the inclusive approach" of Lama Yeshe's FPMT with the exclusive approach of GKG. I think all this was pretty well included in my edit, with any "theory finding" or getting info from Kay or Prohl as you claim I did. Emptymountains (talk) 15:07, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- Dear Emptymountains fine that you work with 3rd party sources. This will help. You can also see that also for Clarke Kay is very acceptable. Which will become important for other sections, because until now Kay has not only be removed but continuously been accused of being biased etc. To quote from Clarke and other 3rd party sources is most excellent. Thank you a lot. However, I think, the introduction section is still confusing and using WP:SPS as I have criticised it. I suggest to find a way to improve it. Other section are from my pov still misleading and the controversy section has been omitted completely which is rather awkward. Therefore I do not remove the NPOV and factual accuracy template until these problems could be improved. -Kt66 (talk) 21:15, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- Dear Kt66. Thank you for writing. As you can tell from my recent edits on the Fundamentalism article, I check all the sources myself to see if what Wikipedia quotes them as saying is correct. I did the same with Clarke's book by looking it up on Amazon and using the "Search Inside" feature to read page 92, which is what is cited in the reference. Clarke says that his classification of the NKT as an NRM is "for reasons of a doctrinal kind rather than a moral kind." He then talks about the differences between GKG and Lama Yeshe, specifically that "The latter, who died in 1984, was less of an intellectual and more eclectic" than GKG. He then states the second reason for the NRM classification (i.e., "Another bone of contention...") as being GKG's dispute of the Dalai Lama's view of Dorje Shugden. He then summarizes things by saying that establishing the NKT(-IKBU) "represents the replacement of the inclusive approach" of Lama Yeshe's FPMT with the exclusive approach of GKG. I think all this was pretty well included in my edit, with any "theory finding" or getting info from Kay or Prohl as you claim I did. Emptymountains (talk) 15:07, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- Dear em, I don't think that your present changes at the NKT article really improve it. What you do with Clarkes classification is Theory finding. Also in other academic books NKT is classified as a NRM and the reasons you state are your assumptions or taken over form the fundamentalism reason by Kay. But Kay and Prohl are not Clarke and they may have other reasons, you can not confuse this. I will leave you with these changes but if you wish to have a fair article which includes factual and non-biased the different povs I think there have to be some discussions what povs exist and how they should be added. For the time being it is just sufficient for me to have marked the article with the three templates, and to have given the reasons for a further discussion. Hope to cooperate with you and others and to learn more. I will leave this message also at your talk page. Best wishes, --Kt66 (talk) 14:50, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
Article’s Introduction section
- Deletion of a passage in the introduction section:
I deleted previously (but it was reverted):
- ’’The New Kadampa Tradition is "new" insofar as it is a new presentation of Buddhadharma, not in terms of the content of its teachings. It follows an established Buddhist tradition that dates back 2500 years to the time of Buddha Shakyamuni, and more recently to the time of Je Tsongkhapa (1357-1419 AD).[21] The NKT also does not characterize itself as Tibetan Buddhism as it has separated itself from Tibetan culture and politics and emphasizes integrating Buddha's teachings into the modern-day world.’’
Reason: the aim of the introduction is to give a short and precise overview on the subject of the article. This has been done already by the passage beforehand (5 precise sentences). The deleted passage is based on WP:SPS and rather disputable and can be used when it comes to discussion of the origin of the organization’s name. In the introduction such a passage is misplaced because it draws the reader already in the NKT pov, without balancing it, and it is disputed if “It follows an established Buddhist tradition that dates back 2500 years to the time of Buddha Shakyamuni, and more recently to the time of Je Tsongkhapa (1357-1419 AD).” as the NKT WP:SPS source claims. The second sentence lacks any source. I think, the former five sentences are sufficient for getting an overview on what the organization is all about, without confusing the reader, aren’t they? The last two sentences are also disputable, the last because it lacks a source, the one before because it is not clear to the reader why it is so important to state that “The organization of the New Kadampa Tradition follows The Internal Rules of the New Kadampa Tradition - International Kadampa Buddhist Union. Mainly these are a lot of terms only insiders may understand and the reason why NKT states this here is of course as a reaction on the controversies, but these are not mentioned, so the sentence lacks the context, and should be deleted as well or shifted to an appropriate section. Also the last unsourced one should be removed, because it is not sourced and there is no real reason for including it in the introduction section. (I left both of them there for the sake of acceptance of my changes.) --Kt66 (talk) 08:40, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
After emptymountains edits The present introduction section states:
- The New Kadampa Tradition (NKT) is a global Buddhist tradition founded by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso in England in 1991. In 2003 the words "International Kadampa Buddhist Union" (IKBU) were added to the name, making its official full name the New Kadampa Tradition - International Kadampa Buddhist Union (NKT-IKBU). The NKT-IKBU is an international non-profit organization registered in England as a charitable company.[22]
- The NKT-IKBU describes itself as Kadampa Buddhism and as a 'time-honored' tradition, stating that "Kadampa Buddhism is a Mahayana Buddhist school founded by the great Indian Buddhist Master Atisha (AD 982-1054)."[23] and more recently to the time of Je Tsongkhapa (1357-1419 AD).[24] The NKT also does not characterize itself as Tibetan Buddhism as it has separated itself from Tibetan culture and politics and emphasizes integrating Buddha's teachings into any of the diverse cultures existing in the modern-day world.[25] For these reasons and the doctrinal reason that the NKT relies on the Dharma Protector Dorje Shugden), Peter Clarke of Oxford University has characterised the NKT as a "controversial Tibetan Buddhist New Religious Movement (NRM)".[26]
- The organization of the New Kadampa Tradition follows The Internal Rules of the New Kadampa Tradition - International Kadampa Buddhist Union.[27] These rules contain numerous checks and balances on the behavior, election and dismissal of the administrators, teachers, and spiritual directors and are legally binding.My
My corrections are:
- NKT is a global Buddhist organisation not "a global Buddhist tradition". FPMT is also an organisation no tradition. This follows also from the legal laws. So there is the first inaccuracy which should be corrected. We can add the NKT views itself as a tradition not an organisation.
- if you use BBC to portray NKT then the content you verify with BBC I could not fiund on the BBC site. Please give a proper reference: http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/buddhism/subdivisions/kadampa.shtml and quote. There is just no entry on BBC which states: "The New Kadampa Tradition is "new" insofar as it is a new presentation of Buddhadharma, not in terms of the content of its teachings. It follows an established Buddhist tradition that dates back 2500 years to the time of Buddha Shakyamuni..."
- The sentence from the NKT website "The NKT also does not characterize itself as..." seems to be fine at the first glance but at the second glance I recognized its spin, it implies already the NKT skills of interpreting reality without that this is clear to the reader. NKT has separated from the Gelug school! If NKT has separated from "Tibetan culture and politics" as the passage claims, it follows the Gelug school is for NKT "Tibetan culture and politics" which is ok as a view but no fact. That the Gelug school and "Tibetan culture and politics" are the same for NKT is stated in no source until now. Is this what NKT thinks? Therefore I reject this sentence and suggest the inclusion of a correct statement by one of the academic research. I think this NKT's WP:SPS is misleading. Because it denies the fact that NKT derieves from Tibetan Buddhism and the Gelug school to favour a version that it separated from "Tibetan culture and politics". We can of course quote this NKT pov but then it has to been balanced with the pov of others, that NKT is stemming from Tibetan Buddhism and Gelug school and derived from a split of them. For 3rd party sources, you can get a list of research on NKT here: Academic Research regarding Shugden Controversy & New Kadampa Tradition see second section. All academic research and the development of NKT and GKG's own education make clear that NKT derives from the Gelug school, and this fact is blurred here. So the NKT derives from Tibetan Buddhism, the Gelug school. This is the correct information. If there are different opinions they have to be stated in NPOV manner.
- The claim "For these reasons and the doctrinal reason that the NKT relies on the Dharma Protector Dorje Shugden), Peter Clarke of Oxford University has characterised the NKT as a "controversial Tibetan Buddhist New Religious Movement (NRM)".[28]" is rather misleading. Although Clarke states that NKT is "another controversial Buddhist NRM, this time rather for a doctrinal rather than a moral kind" - as you put the information and mix the sources in the introduction together is not what he or BBC are saying. You also omit or hide the fact that Clarke states different other reasons for this classification. e.g. as the first reason of the classification the "long running dispute" at Manjushri Institute and that Shugden is just "another serious bone". Clarke clearly states that the doctrinal reason includes GKG's "rigid, exclusive" approach:
- The purpose of the launching in 1991 of the New Kadampa Tradition (NKT) was to unite those centres that opted to be under the spiritual tutelage of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso Rimpoche for the purpose of teaching to the West 'pure' Tibetan Mahayana Buddhism as taught by the Tibetan scholar Je Tsongkapha. The New Kadampa tradition, thus, represents the replacement of the inclusive approach, followed by Lama Yeshe and his supporters, with a rigid, exclusive one. By following this course, Geshe Kelsang Gyaso Rimpoche believes he has reintroduced Kadampa Buddhism to the West in its pristine, authentic form, which he describes, paradoxically, as an autono-mous, modern, Western tradition (Kay, 1997: 286). [3]
So I think the introduction section is still inaccurate and excludes different povs or mixes information together in a way that what the passage says is rather misleading or favours a NKT pov of the facts. Maybe you can improve it. I can also make some suggestions. ---Kt66 (talk) 21:15, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
3rd party WP:RS on what NKT is
All of what follows is from respected academic scholars, specialists in the field of religion or New Religious Movements or at least specialists on NKT.
- Waterhouse and Kay (and recently INFORM) are the only one who have researched NKT themselves.
- Waterhouse's research “Buddhism in Bath: Adaptation and Authority”, Leeds: The Community Religions Project, University of Leeds has been reviewed by David Kay http://www.buddhistethics.org/5/kay.htm.
- The most extensive and thorough research is that of Kay. This research has been reviewed by Prof. Dr Inken Prohl (University of Heidelberg) see: http://www.globalbuddhism.org/7/prohl06.htm. Another review on Kay’s research was made by Feuerstein (PhD) http://www.traditionalyogastudies.com/reviews_buddhism_britain.html.
- The research of INFORM has not been published until today and all other research have no review.
I hope what follows helps to clarify the need of the templates I added. Please don’t remove them until this problem has been solved.
Waterhouse 2005, in ‘’encyclopedia of new religious movements’’, ed. by Clarke, p 407/8, Routledge
- “The New Kadampa Tradition (NKT) is a western form of Tibetan Buddhism related to the Tibetan Gelugpa. It was founded in England, in 1991, but has since expanded to thirty-six countries, mainly in Europe and North America but also to among other countries Hong Kong, India and Brazil.”
George D. Chryssides, ‘’Exploring New Religions’’, Published by Continuum International Publishing Group, 1999
- The New Kadampa Tradition is Gelugpa in character. Like other NRMs that I have discussed, NKT might well question its inclusion in this volume, particular since followers claim to adopt an ancient form of Buddhism that goes back at least to the time of the Tibetan saint-scholar Tsongkhapa (1357-1419) and to be purifying his form of Buddhism of non-Buddhist elements that have no place in pure practice. Indeed some see the NKT as practising a form of Buddhism that is purer than that of the Dalai Lama himself. The organization came prominently into puhlic attention in 1996 on account ot the Dorje Shugden controversy: after veneration of this deity had been banned by the Dalai Lama, not only did NKT members pay no regard to his ruling, but publicly demonstrated outside a public meeting that the Dalai Lima was addressing. While Buddhists have occasionally engaged in active protests about actions and policies which they regarded as serious contraventions of Buddhist teaching (such as the Vietnam war in the 1960s), a demonstration against fellow Buddhists, and particularly against such a respected leader as the Dalai Lama was surprising, to say the least.
- NKT aims "to preserve and promote the essence of Buddha's teachings in a form that is suited to the Western mind and way of life. It is a new organisation making an ancient tradition accessible to all” (New Kadampa Tradition, 1998a). Simultaneously with endeavouring to preserve the purity of the ancient Gelugpa tradition, NKT is concerned with westernization, and has grown rapidly since its inception.
Kay, 2004, Tibetan and Zen Buddhism in Britain, London: Routledge
- In addition to an appreciation of the broader Tibetan Buddhist context of the NKT and the historical and cross-cultural forces that have shaped its development in the West, it is also important to situate this organisation within the context of another contemporary Western Gelug movement: the Foundation for the Preservation of the Mahayana Tradition (FPMT). This chapter outlines the origins of the FPMT in the 1970s and examines the schism that gave rise to a separate network of Buddhist centres headed by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso in the mid-1980s.
- The NKT's historical and institutional roots in Britain go back much further than 1991, the year when its Tibetan founder, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso (b. 1931), announced its official creation. The emergence of the NKT must, in particular, be considered against the context of another contemporary Western Gelug movement called the Foundation for the Preservation of the Mahayana Tradition (FPMT)- Geshe Kelsang (see Figure 2.1) was originally brought to Britain to teach at an FPMT centre called the Manjushri Institute, but he split away from this organisation to develop a parallel network of his own that he later unified and gave a distinct identity as the NKT As well as providing the immediate historical backdrop necessary for understanding the development of the NKT, the FPMT represents an alternative way of articulating and marketing Tibetan Buddhism for Western consumption. Though similar in many ways, these international Buddhist networks are also very different, and a comparative analysis will help illuminate the nature of Tibetan, and particularly Gelug, Buddhism both in Britain and in the West generally.
Bluck 2006:
- Formed in 1991, the New Kadampa Tradition (NKT) is the newest of the seven organizations under consideration, though it has an important background in Tibetan Buddhism, both in Tibet itself and in Britain. The movement describes itself as 'an entirely independent Buddhist tradition' inspired and guided by 'the ancient Kadampa Buddhist Masters and their teachings, as presented by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso' (Kelsang, 2001: 398). The NKT has expanded more rapidly than any other Buddhist tradition in Britain. Like SGI-UK, it has sometimes been portrayed as a controversial organization, described by Bunting (1996a: 1) as a rich and expansionist 'sect' which aims to become the largest Western Buddhist movement and by a former follower as 'a fundamentalist movement' which removes members' personal choice (Kay, 2004: 110). Again a balanced approach is needed here: the practitioner's confident belief may appear as dogmatism to an unsympathetic observer.
- The NKT was formally created in 1991 in what Kay (2004: 88) described as 'a schismatic event’ separating Geshe Kelsang's centres from mainstream Gelug Buddhism.
- There is still disagreement about how to interpret NKT history. The New Kadampa Tradition is said to have been established by Tsongkhapa in fifteenth-century Tibet and 'introduced into the West in 1977' by Geshe Kelsang (Kelsang, 1992: 139; www.manjushri.org.uk), but is also described as being 'established as a distinct tradition in 1991' (Belither, 1997: 1). There seems to be some difficulty in reconciling an ancient lineage with a recent schism.
- Kay (2004: 83-4) felt the movement's own account has shifted considerably, playing down conflict in 'an overarching narrative of continuity' which may need to be challenged. He found FPMT students who view Geshe Kelsang as a 'rogue geshe', seizing control of Manjushri Institute, manipulating students and developing a personality cult around himself, and new disciples were often unaware of the NKT's background, due to the policy of 'consciously forgetting its FPMT roots'. An alternative view is that FPMT teachers became increasingly remote with Geshe Kelsang's single-minded approach and personal example inspiring many students. The FPMT background is not emphasized in current NKT literature, though Belither's Modern Day Kadampas (1997: 6) acknowledges Lama Yeshe's role in setting up Manjushri Institute and establishing Geshe Kelsang as its teacher.
To put things into perspective, I have already quoted many times the harmonizing three views Bluck offers on how NKT can be viewed. These views leave it to the reader which approach he prefers to look on NKT. Therefore I strongly suggest to re-include these three povs Bluck offers again.
Lopez, 1998, page 194, Prisoners of Shangri-la portrays NKT as “the biggest Buddhist organisation in the UK” and makes also clear that the members of the Shugden Supporter Community (SCC) belonged to NKT.
Inken Prohls review on Kay’s research states:
- The New Kadampa Tradition (NKT), which has its roots in the Tibetan Gelug Tradition,… The founder of the NKT, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso (b. 1931), was originally brought to Britain to teach at an FPMT center, but in 1991 he split from this organization in order to found the NKT. This schism, as well as the controversial debate on the guardian deity Dorje Shugden, NKT’s critical attitude concerning the Dalai Lama, and its growing insularity, are examined in the context of traditional Gelug exclusivism. By situating the development and the self-perception of the NKT within its appropriate context, the volume demonstrates the extent to which broader Asian contexts continue to exert a normative influence on Buddhist development in the West.
- Drawing on Robert Lifton’s definition of the “fundamentalist self,” Kay’s argument shows that, due to the NKT’s homogenous organizational structure, its attempts to establish a uniformity of belief and practice within the organization, and an emphasis on following one tradition coupled with a critical attitude toward other traditions, the NKT fits into Lifton’s category of “fundamentalism” (p. 110). Kay describes how struggles for control of NKT’s institutional sites and NKT’s repressed memory of its institutional conflicts both contribute to NKT’s later “fundamentalist” identity. These sections provide an exiting account of recent European religious history and, at the same time, challenge the stereotypical image of unity and harmony within the Western Tibetan Buddhist community.
Other 3rd party WP:RS sources may include Clarke’s short summery in Clarke, Peter Bernard. New Religions in Global Perspective, page 92, ISBN 0-415-25748-4, Routledge 2006 and David V. Barrett’s The New Believers’s article on NKT. As I said already, the latter portrays NKT as "deriving from Tibetan Buddhism" and as "one of the newest and most controversial buddhist movements"; which may not be included in the introduction section but could be used for a section on Controversies. (There is not one 3rd party source which does not include controversies in the NKT context.)
I can give detailed source information (pages) or links if needed and also more 3rd party WP:RS sources. The problem I see is: as NKT is the result of a schism and this is not acknowledged by the organisation the organisation had the need to establish a history of NKT which offers a smoother and Buddhist version. Unwelcomed memories of history, as Kay outlined, are repressed and events the organisation does not see fit into their version of history are omitted from the version of history NKT is offering. The tension and contradiction lay in these facts: While for the organisation the foundation of NKT is a “wonderful event in the history of Buddhadharma” and represents a “pure form of Buddhism” neutral 3rd party sources as well as outsiders of the organisation and critics see the organisation as deriving from a split from FPMT or Gelug school and in the context of cross-cultural adoption processes strongly related to Tibetan history (like the “purity” and “Shugden” issues) which in turn is denied by the organisation by establishing themselves as “completely independence from Tibetan Buddhism” and without the context of “Tibetan Culture and politics”. As long as the article relies strongly on NKT WP:SPS and refutes 3rd party sources the article is just very one-sidedly supporting the narrow minded version and understanding on NKT the NKT leadership offers. Therefore to include more 3rd party sources and other povs by neutral observers with understanding is the need if a proper WP article on NKT is wished, a WP article which is not a narrow minded version of the NKT office about themselves – to say it frankly an article which is not a propaganda entry by the organisation. --Kt66 (talk) 11:58, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, we know you do see the NKT as resulting from a schism, but that is such an extreme view, and one can use "third-party sources" selectively to back up almost any point of view if one is so minded. The NKT arose from the teachings of Je Tsongkhapa as passed through the lineage Gurus, up to Trijang Rinpoche. That great master himself gave Geshe Kelsang Gyatso permission to present Dharma in a way that was suitable for Westerners, which is exactly what he has done, and in doing so he has benefited tens of thousands of Western Buddhists. There has been no schism between the Gelugpa school and the NKT: the NKT is a continuation of the Gelugpa school. There may be other continuations of the Gelugpa school within and without of Tibetan Buddhism, but that is of no concern in this article -- different traditions can write their own articles about themselves as Dharma and its presentation does not belong to anyone and its presentation can (and has frequently) changed. The only separation is that the NKT-IKBU has separated itself out of Tibetan politics and culture; and that is no more a schism than when Tibetan Buddhists orginially adapted Indian Buddhism as their own. You are the only person who keeps going on about "purity" -- you cannot find one mention of that view in any of Geshe Kelsang's books or teachings! NKT teachers are always praising other traditions and requesting that we all live and let live. And, honestly, you are the one who is so keen on making the NKT appear as something so completely different to what it is -- everyone else seems to think this presentation is fair enough as it is. It is not wildly exciting, just informative, with mention to other points of view, and a mention of the Dorje Shugden controversy. It fits Wiki well. It is not overly long. I know you will never agree with this, but there are many other editors who will never agree with your extreme (and incorrect and insulting) point of view about the NKT being a "result of a schism"!! (Truthbody (talk) 19:35, 24 November 2008 (UTC))
- In case you are still confused about this, the NKT was NEVER part of the FPMT!!! Or the Tibetan Gelugpa organization, as it has always been a Western tradition (though of course its historical antecedents are Tibetan and Indian, just as an American can say they are American but that their grandparents came from Russia). It arose as an independent Buddhist tradition in 1991. There are no historical memories being suppressed. Why do you keep repeating such things when you have no proof and no matter how much time people take to try and explain this to you? Here is the account again:
- The NKT is not an off-shoot of the FPMT. Geshe Kelsang was not asked by Lama Yeshe and Lama Zopa but by his (and Lama Yeshe’s) Teacher, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, to become resident teacher of Manjushri Institute in 1977.
- This has been said in public by both Geshe Kelsang and Lama Zopa. The latter said that he and Lama Yeshe both wanted Geshe Kelsang to be the Teacher but Lama Yeshe felt that a request would be successful only if it came from Trijang Rinpoche. Geshe Kelsang later said that at the time he never even knew of the existence of FPMT and was responding to a request from his Teacher.
- The original root of both the FPMT and the NKT is the teachings of Trijang Rinpoche because he was the main Teacher of both Lama Yeshe, the founder of the FPMT, and Geshe Kelsang. This is where the similarity ends. If you compare the presentation of the teachings of both traditions, and the internal organization and politics, they are quite different. The NKT is not an off-shoot of anything but a continuation of the mainstream Gelugpa tradition.
- Geshe Kelsang’s words, Santa Barbara USA, February 2nd 1996
“When I was in India I received an invitation from Manjushri Institute in England through Lama Yeshe, who was my very close friend in Tibet. He and I were from the same monastery in Tibet and we had the same Teacher. He wrote to me and requested me please to go to England and give Dharma teachings. I received this invitation but I didn’t answer for two months. At that time it was difficult for me to say yes due to certain commitments to local Tibetan people, and also I thought how could I teach as I could not speak English? I had no confidence. Lama Yeshe was very clever; he went to visit my root Guru Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, and requested him to ask me to go to England to teach Dharma. He knew if my root Guru asked me, then I would agree to go.
- I received a letter from Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang saying that I should accept this invitation to go to England to teach at least three subjects -- Shantideva’s Guide to the Bodhishattva's Way of Life, Chandrakirti’s Guide to the Middle Way, and Lamrim teachings -- and then I could return to India. I went to see him and asked him precisely whether I would be able to benefit people and would there be any good results? He gave me a lot of encouragement and gave many predictions that there would be great results. So I was very happy and accepted. In 1977 I arrived at Manjushri Institute in England. It was a very big old house with maybe 10 to 15 residents. It was very dusty and dirty, and very cold. For me it was very unusual.
- Soon after I arrived I started to teach Guide to the Bodhisattva's Way of Life, which took almost one year. Then I gave extensive Lamrim teachings, and after that I taught Guide to the Middle Way. So altogether it took almost three years to complete my commitment and I was very happy to return to India. My root Guru Trijang Rinpoche was there and he was very old; my mother and my many spiritual friends were there. Lama Yeshe also accepted my returning to India, so I nearly returned to India. But then the Manjushri Institute community people strongly requested me to stay. They made many promises, saying they would practice purely, undertake responsibility for whatever I wanted, and respect my wishes. Everyone signed a letter requesting me to stay, and some cried. Lama Yeshe’s invitation had finished but there was a new invitation from the community, now much larger with maybe 40 to 50 students. Everyone signed this invitation with many promises. So I accepted. Then gradually I became a subject of the English Queen. I hope later to become her Minister so can I help Tibetan people have their freedom! I’m joking. This is my story.”
(Truthbody (talk) 19:42, 24 November 2008 (UTC))
You may be confused how WP is functioning, there are at least three reliable 3rd party sources by three accepted academic researchers (and I can found more than these who confirm this schism) who state that NKT splitted from FPMT or is a schism. It is clear that NKT has a onwn version of history but Wikipedia is no propaganda arm of the organisation but states what WP:RS have to state. There is agreement in 3rd party researh that NKT's foundation is based on a schism. It is possible to balance thepov of these neutral observers with the pov from within the organisation. But to exclude it becuase it doesn't suit to the history version of the organisation is not possible. Don't spin that this is my view. The third partty sources states this. --Kt66 (talk) 13:35, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
Introduction to the New Kadampa Tradition
I corrected a non-WP:NPOV passage and made in NPOV:
- The New Kadampa Tradition describes itself in the booklet "Modern Day Kadampas" as a Mahayana Buddhist school founded by the Indian Buddhist Master Atisha (AD 982-1054). ‘’’NKT states’’’ "Ka" refers to Buddha Shakyamuni's teachings, and "dam" to Atisha's instructions known as "the stages of the path to enlightenment". ‘’’According to NKT’’’ by integrating their knowledge of all Buddha's teachings into their practice of the stages of the path to enlightenment (Tib. Lamrim), and by integrating this into their everyday lives, Kadampa Buddhists ‘’’(NKT members)’’’ are encouraged to use Buddha's teachings as practical methods for transforming their daily activities into the path to…
Reason: What is stated is NKT pov and the term “Kadampa Buddhists” is a new creation by NKT. The term hasn’t been explained yet and links wrongly to the Kadam article. When NKT uses the term “Kadampa Buddhists” they are actual speaking of NKT members, the reader does not know this at that time of reading the article, because the use of the term is explained later. So I added that information in brackets. I removed the wrong and unsourced claim:
- ’’The Kadampa tradition was later promoted widely in Tibet by Je Tsongkhapa and his followers, who were known as the "New Kadampas".’’ because the Kadampa tradition was not promoted widely in Tibet but absorbed into the four existing Tibetan lineages. Je Tsongkhapa promoted his own lineage which is a mix of different lineages and masters.
--Kt66 (talk) 08:40, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
History of the New Kadampa Tradition
I tagged this passage no with the primarysources-template.
During my previous changes I removed the wrong statements based on a NKT blog which even confuses the statement with Kay’s research:
- ’’ In 1976 Lama Thubten Yeshe invited Geshe Kelsang from India, where he was engaged in a 16-year retreat[29], to teach at Manjushri Kadampa Meditation Centre (then Manjushri Institute) in England.[30] Geshe Kelsang taught the General Program at Manjushri KMC from 1976 to 1987.’’
As the passage claims to state something about the history of NKT but state nothing but spins I added a short version based on academic researches which explains NKT history according to the facts. I added:
- In 1976 the students of Lama Thubten Yeshe founded the Manjushri Institute, a registered charitable company[31] with Lama Yeshe as the Spiritual Director and purchased the assets of Conishead Priory, a sadly neglected Victorian mansion in Ulverston (Cumbria), England for the price of £70,000.[32][30] In the same year Lama Thubten Yeshe and Lama Zopa Rinpoche visited Geshe Kelsang in India and invited him over to teach at the Manjushri Institute, which was a part of their FPMT network.[30]
- Geshe Kelsang was requested by Lama Yeshe to lead the "General Program" of Buddhist study. In 1979 Lama Yeshe installed another Geshe at Manjushri Institute, Geshe Jampa Tekchok, to teach a parallel twelve-year Geshe Studies Programme, which was recognized and validated by the Dalai Lama and which was modeled on the traditional Geshe degree.[30] [33] From 1982 to 1990 this program was led by Geshe Konchog Tsewang.[34] According to a disciple of Lama Yeshe from this time, Lama Yeshe intended the institute "to become the central monastery of the FPMT... one of the early jewels of the FPMT crown" and "the pioneer among the western centers".[30]
- Geshe Kelsang taught the General Program at Manjushri Institute from 1976 to 1987. In 1987, Geshe Kelsang entered a 3-year retreat at Tharpaland in Dumfries, Scotland. During Geshe Kelsang's retreat he wrote five books and established the foundations of the NKT.[35] (as what NKT states here is congruent with neutral scholarly papers I kept the NKT source as a sufficient source.)
Then the spins of the facts start based on NKT WP:SPS, I deleted them and added again WP:RS in WP:NPOV:
- According to Kay, "in 1991, through the successful exploitation of a legal loophole, the assets of Manjushri Institut finally fell under the sole control of the Priory Group"(the close disciples of Geshe Kelsang).[36] In the Spring of that same year, Geshe Kelsang announced the creation of the 'New Kadampa Tradition', an event which was celebrated in the NKT-Magazine Full Moon as "a wonderful development in the history of the Buddhadharma."[36] In 1992, the Manjushri Institute developed a new constitution[37], which constituted the formal foundation of the NKT. The Manjushri Institute was renamed the Manjushri Mahayana Buddhist Center[38], and later the Manjushri Kadampa Meditation Center. Since then, it has remained Geshe Kelsang's home and the NKT's flagship center.[39]
- The NKT views itself as "an entirely independent Buddhist tradition" and remarks that the "NKT-IKBU has no political affiliations. It is an international association of study and meditation centers that follow the pure tradition of Mahayana Buddhism derived from the Buddhist meditators and scholars Atisha and Je Tsongkhapa and introduced into the West by the Buddhist Teacher Venerable Geshe Kelsang Gyatso".[40] NKT aims to "principally follow the teachings and example of Je Tsongkhapa".[41] (This NKT source is used again because it perfectly explains NKT’s pov.)
Neutral academic comment was added to help the reader to get an idea what the meaning of the words are by quoting:
- David N. Kay comments:
“ | In defining the movement in this way, the organisation is not simply maintaining that it represents Buddhism adapted for westerners; it is also striving to underline its separation from the Tibetan Gelug sect and emphasise the point that the West - via the NKT - is now the guardian and custodian of the pure tradition of Tsongkhapa in the modern world. From an NKT viewpoint, Geshe Kelsang has played a unique role in the transmission of Tsongkhapa's pure teachings, and the organisation and study structures he has created in the West are now believed to protect and preserve a tradition that is all but lost in its indigenous Eastern context.[42] | ” |
Is there anything wrong with this correction? This issue is rather highly sensitive to NKT because according to Kay NKT leadership represses the history and eradicates unwelcome memories of the past up to a point that is striking. As Kay presents a independent research on NKT history (the only which exist until now) which is accepted among academic scholars, which is reviewed and perfectly fits into WP:RS, Kay is the best choice to offer a proper section on NKT history. I left the section short to avoid too much discussion and to give a very short overview on information which have been deleted (probably by NKT editors). --Kt66 (talk) 08:40, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- You asked, so I'll reply -- yes, there is something wrong with this correction, which is that the NKT does not strive to underline its separation from the Tibetan Gelug sect. Maybe from the Tibetan political establishment, for sure, but the NKT entirely follows the teachings of the Gelugpa founder, Je Tsongkhapa. But the next bit, "From an NKT viewpoint... Eastern context", though overstating the case and not to be found in any of the teachings or writings, is at least not as wildly misleading. Kay's comment about the NKT leadership repressing history is strange and it is hard to see where he gets it from -- what NKT leadership is repressing what history? The NKT is not hiding anything, including any growing pains in the West (witness the new New Kadampa Truth site, which is very honest about all these growing pains), and the NKT in fact is probably very happy with the vast majority of its history, dating as it does back in an unbroken lineage to the time of Buddha Shakyamuni and Je Tsongkhapa. As for "unwelcome memories", what on earth is Kay talking about? This is one example of why it is best not to overuse his university thesis as a legitimate source. "Accepted among academic scholars" is meaningless unless those (unnamed) academic scholars have done their own research into the NKT, but there are no neutral studies to back up Kay's. He is a lone wolf. (Truthbody (talk) 00:20, 21 November 2008 (UTC))
- The FPMT have not found fault with this account of Manjushri Institute given on the New Kadampa Truth website [43]. In reality, the FPMT were not exactly blameless at that time, and the NKT have been discreet in not publicizing some of their untoward activities back in the late seventies -- letting sleeping dogs lie. The "legal loophole" was only possible due to some illegal activities by then FPMT students. You (and Kay) were not around at the time so perhaps you don't know all of what went on. (Truthbody (talk) 00:28, 21 November 2008 (UTC))
- Dear Truthbody thank you. When NKT separates from its root the Gelug school and no living master of the own school is acceptable to them or they are just ignored, then this is clearly "a separation from the Tibetan Gelug sect". Although NKT tries to hide this fact by claiming it has only separated from "Tibetan Culture and politics", NKT stems from the Gelug school and no text from the Gelug school and no master from Gelug school is accepted. Are these all "Tibetan Culture and politics"? That NKT separated from the Gelug school is also stated in 3rd party academic sources. The problem is rather that NKT has an own version on this issue and tries to establish a reason line which wishes to make believe that they did not separate from the Gelug school and are yet different and "completely independent" while having at the same time no affiliation at all to their roots and still wish to be pure, authentic and an "old tradition". Researcher Bluck pointed out these contradictions when he stated "that there remains an apparent contradiction between claiming a pure Tibetan lineage and separating completely from contemporary Tibetan tradition. While the NKT strongly emphasizes its unbroken 'lineage', it has no Tibetan followers and claims to stand outside current Tibetan Buddhism." and
- Apart from Geshe Kelsang, there are no ethnic Tibetans in the NKT, and no remaining links with the rest of Tibetan Buddhism. With no remaining Tibetan links, central control of teaching, little contact with other schools, an expanding programme of residential centres, widespread if selective publicity and overt proselytizing, the NKT as an organization is far removed from the mainstream of traditional Tibetan Buddhism.
- So Kay is correct in his interpretation and even if he would be incorrect: Wikipedia is not "truth searching" Wikipedia states what WP:RS have to state on a certain subject matter. (I add this latter point because there is often confusion among editors just due to this latter fact.)
- What Kay states about NKT's leadership is repressing history and repressing unwelcome memories (split from FPMT) is correct and it is also shown in his research by pointing out how much the FPMT affiliation and the split from FPMT has been removed from the official NKT history version. Maybe you start to read it if you wish to contribute. It is clear that most new NKT members have almost no understanding about NKT's history, this is also stated by Kay. So if you wish to work on the article please read 3rd party sources. The NKT truth site is no 3rd party source nor a WP:RS. You seem to have not so much idea about the verifiability of sources, if a researcher is often quoted and used by other researchers this researcher is "Accepted among academic scholars", and this in turn gives more credits to the quoted researcher and his work.
- Dear Truthbody thank you. When NKT separates from its root the Gelug school and no living master of the own school is acceptable to them or they are just ignored, then this is clearly "a separation from the Tibetan Gelug sect". Although NKT tries to hide this fact by claiming it has only separated from "Tibetan Culture and politics", NKT stems from the Gelug school and no text from the Gelug school and no master from Gelug school is accepted. Are these all "Tibetan Culture and politics"? That NKT separated from the Gelug school is also stated in 3rd party academic sources. The problem is rather that NKT has an own version on this issue and tries to establish a reason line which wishes to make believe that they did not separate from the Gelug school and are yet different and "completely independent" while having at the same time no affiliation at all to their roots and still wish to be pure, authentic and an "old tradition". Researcher Bluck pointed out these contradictions when he stated "that there remains an apparent contradiction between claiming a pure Tibetan lineage and separating completely from contemporary Tibetan tradition. While the NKT strongly emphasizes its unbroken 'lineage', it has no Tibetan followers and claims to stand outside current Tibetan Buddhism." and
- kt66, here is an account of people who were right there at that time:
Geshe Kelsang was the first Resident Teacher at Manjushri Institute. He later accepted Lama Yeshe’s request for him to step down and had made plans to return to India and then to live at Madhyamaka Centre (which Geshe Kelsang founded independent of the FPMT) in York. However, the community at Manjushri all petitioned him to stay.
The community of Manjushri Institute wished to save their building, Conishead Priory, from being sold to make funds available for suspect business dealings in Hong Kong. This meant they needed to separate from the FPMT. On the other hand, they wished Lama Yeshe to stay as their Spiritual Director. After continual discussions on how to solve the problem, also involving two representatives from the Dalai Lama, the Institute’s managers – then called the ‘Priory Group’ – decided to take steps to separate Manjushri Institute from FPMT.
There were three main reasons for doing this:
1) FPMT managers had committed serious illegal actions, which was public knowledge among many people at Dharma centres; 2) FPMT managers wanted to sell Manjushri Institute’s building; and 3) Although, according to its constitution, legally everything at the centre belonged only to four people, in reality all the work of developing the centre was being done by the community, and not these four.
Eventually, a legally binding agreement was made, which was signed by the FPMT’s representatives, Geshe Kelsang, the Priory Group and the community representatives. One part of the agreement was to confirm that Lama Yeshe was the Spiritual Director of Manjushri Centre.
The whole detailed history of Manjushri Institute over these years has been chronicled by three reliable witnesses who were part of the proceedings. (check out http://www.newkadampatruth.org/geshekelsanggyatso.php#7 for the rest of the details.)
These are not spins, these are facts. All this is archived. (Truthbody (talk) 20:00, 24 November 2008 (UTC))
- Dear Truthbody as I stated above it would be good to study or read the 3rd party sources on NKT and WP guidelines for articles. WP collects information from WP:RS and different pov are stated in [[WP:NPOV]. It will be impossible for you to prove that my suggestion is incorrect according to WP rules and 3rd party sources. The correction I suggest is very different to what is now in that section and it is following in general WP policies and standards. If you don't believe me, I can ask the opinion of a third independent person or you can do this yourself: Request for comment. Please be so kind to accept my NPOV template and don't remove it again. Thank you both a lot. --Kt66 (talk) 21:47, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- kt66, I don't mind using 3rd-party sources when they back up something that is factual, not when they are used as spin to back up your own inaccurate opinions. For example, it actually makes no sense whatsoever to say, as you do above, that "no text from the Gelug school and no master from Gelug school is accepted." What are you talking about?! All the teachings in the NKT are derived from great Gelugpa Masters from Trijang Rinpoche right back to the time of Je Tsongkhapa. Geshe Kelsang himself is a great master from the Gelugpa tradition who has written 22 highly acclaimed commentaries to Je Tsongkhapa's teachings. Nothing other than Je Tsongkhapa's view and teachings are taught in the NKT, nothing at all. "That NKT separated from the Gelug school is also stated in 3rd party academic sources" -- yes, as explained maybe twenty times (but you don't listen), the NKT is not part of the Tibetan Buddhist establishment, including other Tibetan groups that practice the Gelugpa tradition. However, it is Tibetan Gelugpa in its antecedents -- and you can have Tibetan antecedents without being Tibetan, just as the child of Russian emigrants in America can call themselves American and not Russian, and follow American customs, culture and language and not Russian ones. "The problem is rather that NKT has an own version on this issue and tries to establish a reason line which wishes to make believe that they did not separate from the Gelug school and are yet different and "completely independent" while having at the same time no affiliation at all to their roots and still wish to be pure, authentic and an "old tradition"." Yes, that sounds about right, except for one bit -- we are affiliated very much to our roots and make prayers to our Indian and Tibetan lineage Gurus all the time and value our tradition and lineage dating back to Je Tsongkhapa very highly. In fact, it is precisely that "old tradition", up until now unbroken, that we are trying to preserve by opposing the Dalai Lama's illegal ban of that tradition's Protector. What is wrong with that? (Truthbody (talk) 20:00, 24 November 2008 (UTC))
Ordination
At the first glance I took on the article this was the worst section. It neither fulfilled WP:NPOV, is too specialized for a reader who has no idea about the subtleties of Buddhism, Vinaya and ordination and it heavily relied on Geshe Kelsang’s pov (using WP:SPS even from an unpublished booklet which is not fulfilling at all WP:RS criteria). The section did also not make known whose views these are and offered no other povs, although they are available. My first improvement was the following, however it should be improved further and shortened. After my changes were reverted I tagged this section with the unbalanced-template. The reasons are given. --Kt66 (talk) 08:40, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- kt66, Before you make everyone read through all this again, please explain why you have not addressed this in the very extensive ordination section above, where it was discussed in great detail by many editors? Why do you have to fill a whole big section of the talk page with your own repeated views (again)? Can you not see that this approach is not a skilful way to work with the other editors on the page as it shows you are not listening or discussing but just repeating the same things over and over again? (Truthbody (talk) 00:34, 21 November 2008 (UTC))
- The ordination tradition in the NKT differs from that as described by the Buddha in the Vinaya and Pratimoksha. This has brought NKT the criticism that "NKT members to represent themselves to the public as authentic Buddhist monks and nuns is wrong and misleading".[44]
- When a NKT follower gets ordained they receive a Rabjung ordination with 10 vows designed by Geshe Kelsang. The 10 vows of the NKT ordination are to "abandon killing, stealing, sexual conduct, lying and taking intoxicants" and also to "practise contentment, reduce my desire for worldly pleasures, abandon engaging in meaningless activities, maintain the commitments of refuge, and practise the three trainings of pure moral discipline, concentration and wisdom."[45] The first five vows can be found in the Vinaya, the latter five can't be found there.
- According to NKT, the NKT ordination "is based on the Mahayana Perfection of Wisdom Sutras"[46] instead of the Hinayana Vinaya Sutras. According to Geshe Kelsang, "The Perfection of Wisdom Sutras are our Vinaya and Lamrim is its commentary." He argues the NKT ordination and its modifications are based on Buddha advising his disciple Ananda, "If it is desired, Ananda, the Sangha may, when I am gone, abolish the lesser and minor rules."[47]
- However, the Buddha allowed only to change minor rules and only if the majority of the Sangha accepts.[48]
- Geshe Kelsang / NKT argues in the The Ordination Handbook:
- Buddha established both lay and ordained Pratimoksha vows, and established several levels of ordination vows[49]. According to the Hinayana schools such as the Vaibhashika school, ordained vows are a subtle physical form[50], whereas according to the Mahayana they are in the nature of a determination, which is part of mind. Traditionally, the different levels of ordination were distinguished by the specific vows taken, and by the ceremony in which they were received.
- According to Geshe Kelsang Gyatso when NKT followers' renunciation improves and deepens their ordination this 10 vow ordination "transforms into a Getsul (sramanera) ordination; and when their renunciation becomes spontaneous their ordination transforms into a Gelong (bhikkhu) ordination."[51] NKT refers to this ordination as "Kadampa ordination".
- Geshe Kelsang states:
The verbal explanation of the Kadampa ordination is brief — there are just ten commitments — but their practice is very extensive. These ten commitments that you promise to keep are a condensation of the entire Lamrim teachings. Although we can finish a verbal explanation of these vows in a few hours, their practice is all embracing. You should do this—few words but always practice, practice extensively.
- As stated, according to Geshe Kelsang the 10 NKT vows were taken from the Mahayana Perfection of Wisdom Sutra- Moreover, he views Atisha’s Lamrim text Lamp for the Path to Enlightenment as a commentary to it.. He argues that Atisha's text includes references to Arya Asanga’s The Bodhisattva Stages (Skt. Bodhisattvabhumi) listing the six ‘branches’ or necessary conditions for attaining tranquil abiding, including:[52]
- little desire
- contentment
- no distracting activities
- pure moral discipline
- no distracting conceptions
- By this explanation NKT wishes to proof the NKT ordination as being in accordance to Buddhism.
- According to the Australia Sangha Association, the definition by Geshe Kelsang "has nothing in common with the traditionally accepted understanding of ordination and confuses the notion of a Bhikhu or Bhikhuni in the spiritual and conventional sense. From earliest times a 'true Bhikhu' has been one who realised the Dharma. However all Buddhist traditions, while fully understanding this, have always insisted on the necessity for the conventional Sangha to hold Vinaya vows properly received in accordance with the prescribed rituals."[53]
- The founder of the old Kadampa school, Atisha, stated about Buddhist monks vows “The training of the Monk is [..] of two hundred and fifty-three [rules].”[54], and all ordained Tibetan Buddhist masters, including Geshe Kelsang, hold the full ordination with its complete set of more than 200 vows.
- Geshe Kelsang encourages his followers to focus their effort on improving their renunciation and ordained way of life, and that it is not necessary to receive Getsul or full ordination vows in a separate ceremony. He describes these vows as being easier to integrate into today's society. [55]
- Ordained people in the NKT abandon the physical signs of a lay person by shaving their head and wearing maroon and yellow robes of the Mula-sarvatastavadin school (Tibetan Buddhism). They are given a new name which starts with "Kelsang," since it is traditional for ordinees to receive part of the ordaining master's name (Kelsang Gyatso).
- They also engage in a Sojong-like ceremony twice a month to purify and restore their vows. A monk or nun who breaks their ordination vows must leave their Centre for at least a year. After that year, "with some conditions" they can return but cannot teach.
- Within the NKT community there are over 700 monks and nuns.[56] NKT ordination ceremonies are usually held twice a year in the main NKT Temple at Manjushri Kadampa Meditation Center in Cumbria (UK), Ulverston. --Kt66 (talk) 08:40, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- why has this all been just repeated? Please see my comment above. For an answer to the Australian Sangha Association, please see http://www.newkadampatruth.org/newkadampatradition.php#4 (Truthbody (talk) 00:37, 21 November 2008 (UTC))
Dear Truthbody, you can summerize the NKT pov and state it in NPOV manner and you can summerize the ASA pov and state it in NPOV manner. Both povs should be stated, at the moment the section favours NKT pov is not NPOV and ASA pov is excluded which makes the section not worthy for WP. I mainly wished not to delete too much from the NKT pova although I feel it is far too long. Thanks, best wishes --Kt66 (talk) 15:15, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
Origins of the name "New Kadampa Tradition" and "Kadampa Buddhism", "Kadampa Buddhist"
This passage was corrected because it included too much spins and was not clear about its subject, the origin of the name. The changes state the things accurate according to chronological development :
- The old Kadampa Tradition was founded by Atisha in the 11th century.[57] Je Tsongkhapa collected the teachings of this particular school and combined it with the teachings of other Tibetan schools, like Sakya. Later his followers became known as the "New Kadampas" or Gelugpas.
- In the beginning the NKT tried to clarify they are "pure Gelugpas":
- In 1998 Geshe Kelsang stated in an interview:
“ | We are pure Gelugpas. The name Gelugpa doesn’t matter, but we believe we are following the pure tradition of Je Tsongkhapa. We are studying and practicing Lama Tsongkhapa’s teachings and taking as our example what the ancient Kadampa lamas and geshes did. All the books that I have written are commentaries on Lama Tsongkhapa’s teachings. We try our best to follow the example of the ancient Kadampa Tradition and use the name Kadampa to remind people to practice purely.[58] | ” |
- Later NKT tried to clarify what distinguish them from the Gelugpas:
- According to an NKT brochure, written by James Belither while secretary of the NKT:
“ | Geshe Kelsang first introduced the title 'New Kadampa Tradition' to give the centres under his spiritual direction a distinct identity within the wider Buddhist world. Although the Gelugpas were sometimes referred to as new Kadampas, the name New Kadampa Tradition had never been used previously in a formal sense. Nevertheless, by using this title Geshe Kelsang is making it clear that practitioners of this tradition are principally following the teachings and example of Je Tsongkhapa. The word 'New' is used not to imply that it is newly created, but is a fresh presentation of Buddhadharma in a form and manner that is appropriate to the needs and conditions of the modern world. Furthermore, by using the title 'Kadampa', Geshe Kelsang encourages his disciples to follow the perfect example of simplicity and purity of practice shown by the Kadampa Geshes."[41] | ” |
- Nowadays the New Kadampa Tradition describes Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's presentation of Buddhism to the West as Kadampa Buddhism with the following statement:
- "Kadampa Buddhism is a time-honored tradition that for centuries has made Buddha's teachings and meditation practices available to people throughout the world."[59]
- "It is an association of Buddhist Centers and practitioners that derive their inspiration and guidance from the example of the ancient Kadampa Buddhist Masters and their teachings as presented by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. The New Kadampa Tradition (NKT) is an international non-profit organization registered in England as a charitable company..., and was founded by Geshe Kelsang to provide a vehicle for promoting Kadampa Buddhism throughout the world."[60]
- Moreover, the NKT presents itself as being the continuation of the old Kadampa tradition by naming its school Kadampa Buddhism and equating this Kadampa Buddhism with the historical Kadampa School of Atisha:
“ | Kadampa Buddhism is a Mahayana Buddhist school founded by the great Indian Buddhist Master Atisha (AD 982-1054)... The great Kadampa Teachers are famous not only for being great scholars but also for being spiritual practitioners of immense purity and sincerity. The lineage of these teachings, both their oral transmission and blessings, was then passed from Teacher to disciple, spreading throughout much of Asia, and now to many countries throughout the Western world... Kadampa Buddhism was first introduced into the West in 1977 by the renowned Buddhist Master, Venerable Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. Since that time, he has worked tirelessly to spread Kadampa Buddhism throughout the world by giving extensive teachings, writing many profound texts on Kadampa Buddhism, and founding the New Kadampa Tradition - International Kadampa Buddhist Union.[61] | ” |
- The NKT claims further that "Kadampa Buddhism was first introduced into the West in 1977 by the renowned Buddhist Master, Venerable Geshe Kelsang Gyatso."[62]
- Consequently followers of the NKT refer presently to themselves as Kadampa Buddhists, the Temples of the New Kadampa Tradition are referred to as Kadampa Buddhist Temples, and more recently NKT teachers are named Kadampa Teachers. Additionally, the Dharma centers of the New Kadampa Tradition are called Kadampa Buddhist Centers[63] and the hotels Hotel Kadampas.[64]
- James Belither, the former secretary of the NKT, described the NKT as "a Mahayana Buddhist tradition with historical connections with Tibet", rather than a Tibetan tradition, and explained that Geshe Kelsang wishes his followers always "to present Dharma in a way appropriate to their own culture and society without the need to adopt Tibetan culture and customs".[65]
Of course this section is overloaded and can be condensed but it is at least precise and shows also what Kay stated, that NKT has undergone considerable change since its inception. The use of terms and the struggle for self-identity is a sign of this. Originally this section was under the headline ‘’’The Self-Idendity of NKT’’’ and I think it is better to revive this headline again. This was just a quick solution to remove spins. To make it short here my reasons for the other changes and the changes itself. My reasons for the changes are: NKT is heavily involved in the Shugden controversy and received in the past a lot of criticism (all over the world), and all these information have been deleted, especially the reference to the past protests (1996-98) although there are many press articles and academic sources on it. Further as NKT is discussed controversially and not accepted in some Buddhist Unions (Germany and Austria, and only with low key authority in Swiss) and academics offer some different point of views (which all have been deleted as well), I added at least a summary of them by inserting the following sections/passages from WP:RS in WP:NPOV manner or I corrected slightly wrong statements which were unsourced. --Kt66 (talk) 08:40, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
Response to Origins of the name "New Kadampa Tradition" and "Kadampa Buddhism", "Kadampa Buddhist"
I have to disagree with the above presentation, which is why I had edited it. Where you see an identity crisis with the NKT's use of different terms to describe itself, I see only terms that are synonymous and interchangeable, as specified in the NKT's glossary of terms[4] and other sources:
Kadampa Buddhism = Old & New Kadampa Traditions
Kadampa Buddhism – A Mahayana Buddhist school founded by the great Indian Buddhist Master Atisha (AD 982-1054). See also Kadampa and Kadampa Tradition.
Kadampa Tradition – The pure tradition of Buddhism established by Atisha. Followers of this tradition up to the time of Je Tsongkhapa are known as ‘Old Kadampas’, and those after the time of Je Tsongkhapa are known as ‘New Kadampas’. See also Kadampa and Kadampa Buddhism.
New Kadampa Tradition = Je Tsongkhapa’s Tradition
I make requests to you, Gurus of the Old Kadam lineage, the second Buddha Atisha, Dromtonpa, Geshe Potowa, and all the other precious Teachers who have revealed the union of vast and profound paths. I make requests to you, Gurus of the New Kadam lineage, Venerable Tsongkhapa, Jampel Gyatso, Khedrubje, and all the other precious Teachers who have revealed the union of Sutra and Tantra. (Essence of Good Fortune sadhana, Requests to the Field for Accumulating Merit and the Lamrim lineage Gurus, p. 12)
Je Tsongkhapa’s Tradition = Gelug Tradition (“Virtuous Tradition”)
Gelug - The tradition established by Je Tsongkhapa. The name ‘Gelug’ means ‘Virtuous Tradition’. A Gelugpa is a practitioner who follows this tradition. The Gelugpas are sometimes referred to as the ‘new Kadampas’.
(See also 'Prayers for the Virtuous Tradition' in the closing prayers of every NKT sadhana.)
A Gelugpa = A New Kadampa
We are pure Gelugpas. The name Gelugpa doesn’t matter, but we believe we are following the pure tradition of Je Tsongkhapa. We are studying and practicing Lama Tsongkhapa’s teachings and taking as our example what the ancient Kadampa lamas and Geshes did. All the books that I have written are commentaries on Lama Tsongkhapa’s teachings. We try our best to follow the example of the ancient Kadampa Tradition, and use the name Kadampa to remind people to practice purely. (Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, An Interview With Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, Tricycle: the Buddhist Review, No. 27, Spring 1998, p. 74)
You'd have to give me sources that show the NKT stopped using one term and replaced it with another. Just within the last year, Gen-la Dekyong visited my Center where she said, quite emphatically I might add, "I am a pure Gelugpa." I don't see Geshe-la's books being frantically revised to wipe out some terms and substitute them with others.
However, two acronyms which should be clarified better are NKT-IKBU (the organization established in 1991) and NKT (the centuries-old tradition). Oftentimes, the latter is used as short-hand for the former, but I feel this causes some unnecessary confusion. The NKT-IKBU is an organization (just like the FPMT). Both organizations represent the Gelug/New-Kadampa Tradition. Emptymountains (talk) 17:01, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- Dear Emptymountains, I think you mix apples with bananas, since what 2 = 4 = 6 = 8? It should be discriminated what is what. Best Wishes. --Kt66 (talk) 15:12, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
- This is how the terms are understood in the NKT-IKBU, as evidenced by the sources cited above. I just don't see the identity crisis you claim exists; what you originally wrote sounds like "theory finding" to me! Emptymountains (talk) 15:24, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
- I would render it more like "2 = 1a + 1b" and "1b = 1b = 1b." According to you, however, the New Kadam lineage is not Je Tsongkhapa's tradition (because you said this is like saying "4 = 6"). You also imply that Je Tsongkhapa's tradition is not the Gelug tradition (because you said this is like saying "6 = 8"). That does sound overly discriminatory on your part! <L> Emptymountains (talk) 14:39, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
Dorje Shugden Controversy
- The NKT attracted international media attention[66] and a lot of criticism for its public demonstrations "for religious freedom" in America, England, Switzerland and Germany (1996-1998) against the Dalai Lama who had advised publicly against the Shugden practice. In a 1998 report, Donald S. Lopez, Jr. remarked on the media attention, the press criticism, and the cult allegation levied at the NKT:
“ | In the summer of 1996, the disciples of Kelsang Gyatso denounced the Dalai Lama for impinging on their religious freedom, and picketed against him during his visit to Britain, accusing him of intolerance. The demonstrations made front-page news in the British press, which collectively rose to the Dalai Lama's defense and in various reports depicted the New Kadampa Tradition as a fanatic, empire-building, demon-worshipping cult. The demonstrations were a public relations disaster for the NKT, not only because of its treatment by the press, but also because the media provided no historical context for the controversy and portrayed Shugden as a remnant of Tibet’s primitive pre-Buddhist past.[67] | ” |
- The NKT and its General Spiritual Director Geshe Kelsang engage in the practice of Dorje Shugden, which the current Dalai Lama has consistently spoken out against and which practice is banned from Gelug monasteries since 2008.
- Many individual practitioners from the NKT support the Western Shugden Society. For more on this topic, see Dorje Shugden Controversy.
--Kt66 (talk) 08:40, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
Different views on NKT
- According to David V. Barrett the NKT-IKBU as "deriving from Tibetan Buddhism" and is "one of the newest and most controversial buddhist movements".[68] Bunting stated that "The NKT is an entirely self-referential system. The total dependence on a single charismatic figure is unorthodox in Tibetan Buddhism."[69] Researcher Bluck remarked that there remains an apparent contradiction between claiming a pure Tibetan lineage and separating completely from contemporary Tibetan tradition. While the NKT strongly emphasizes its unbroken 'lineage', it has no Tibetan followers and claims to stand outside current Tibetan Buddhism.[70]
- Researcher Kay stated about the idendity of NKT:
- "Multiple 'histories' exist on an individual and public group level both inside and outside the movement. As the pre-history of the group is rooted in conflict and schism the social organisation of memory and forgetfulness especially the group's leadership is particularly striking. Accounts of current and former members either reinforce or contradict and compete with each other. They diverge widely over points of historical detail and often interpret the same events and processes in very different ways, reflecting a wide range of personal experience, depth of involvement, bias, opinion and loyalty. At the level of public discourse, the history and identity of the NKT has also, during the course of its development, undergone considerable realignment. Of course, such revision and reconfiguration of the past is commonplace within religious movements that are more concerned with issues of identity and ideology than with notions of historical veracity."[71]
- Bluck offered a number of different angles from which the NKT may be viewed:
- *The NKT could be viewed from outside as a movement aiming at what Titmus (1999: 91) called 'conversion and empire-building', with a dogmatic and superior viewpoint, 'narrow-minded claims to historical significance', intolerance of other traditions and 'strong identification with the leader or a book'.
- *A more scholarly external view might emphasize instead the enthusiasm, firm beliefs, urgent message and 'charismatic leadership' which Barker (1999: 20) saw as characteristic of many NRMs.
- *An alternative picture from inside the movement would include a wish to bring inner peace to more people, based on a pure lineage of teaching and practice, with faith and confidence in an authentic spiritual guide.
- About the possible ways how to picture the NKT, Bluck said: "Our choice of interpretation may depend on how we engage with the other viewpoint, as well as the evidence itself, and until recently the NKT's supporters and critics have largely ignored each other."[72]
--Kt66 (talk) 08:40, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
And I added one link to a former NKT members’ website, because I think the site is quite fair and as long as NKT’s truths are linked why not linking former NKT members’ truths? Also the WP section claims to offer weblinks to NKT critics. Former members are the main critics of NKT, aren’t they? So one link to them seems fair to me. Happy to hear what the reasons are why these changes should be removed and the former version is more according to WP:RS and WP:NPOV. For the time being I added the warning templates and gave the reasons for these measures above. Best wishes. --Kt66 (talk) 08:40, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
Kt66 - wrong: sockpuppet thing cleared up ages ago, to everyone (but your) satisfaction. What's wrong with you? Why are you on such a vendetta? Your one-man internet campaign is - what? What for exactly? Just give it up. It's not healthy, your obsession. Please give this up, and be at peace. Your brother, Atisha's cook (talk) 14:20, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
Atisha's cook, i've been lurking, had to jump in too. I can see that tenzin or kt66 (kelsang tashi) has been trying everyone's patience by repeating the same things over and over again and not listening to anything anyone says, and also i've seen him do this elsewhere on the internet over the last months stretching into years, but i still think it might be best to stay off the personal stuff, even though you're trying to help. just a suggestion. (82.27.245.230 (talk) 19:10, 21 November 2008 (UTC))
- You are right, and i've therefore removed the personally indentifying info. re. Kt66 from my post above. Atisha's cook (talk) 09:47, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
Outing Kt66?
- Please Atisha's cook, Emptymountains, truthbody etc, and User:82.27.245.230 see WP:outing: Posting another person's personal information (legal name, date of birth, social security number, home or workplace address, telephone number, email address, or other contact information, regardless of whether or not the information is actually correct) is harassment, .... Name calling is seen as harassment. I have asked already someone else to put a note about this continued violation of rule by a quite large group of editors to the Admin board. Thank you for your considerations. --Kt66 (talk) 19:18, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- Apart from Atisha's cook making that one remark, what "outing" are you referring to? Did you not also call someone "lucy" at some stage? I don't know who you are talking about, but this sounded no different to people calling you Tenzin, except that do you not even call yourself Tenzin on your own profile pages? However I agree that if you don't like it, everyone should stop calling you it. That is easily done, i should think. (ARKJ (talk) 19:33, 21 November 2008 (UTC))
- ARKJ you seem to oversee that WP:outing became a strategy against me and while I used the "Lucy statement" above to defend me (read the passage again) - yet still a fault - I didn't use a second name while since Oct. 2005 repeatedly WP:outing took place with a full name and this constitutes harassment and violates the policy as it is stated in WP:outing. It's amazing to see that this behaviour is still accepted and defended. --Kt66 (talk) 22:21, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- On Kt66's user page he lists his private website as http://info-buddhism.com/ and in the Impressum[5] linked to at the bottom of every page on that website, he says his name is "Tenzin Peljor" and even lists his personal email and mailing addresses. He himself make this connection public, so I don't think this can be an instance of outing him since this "editor voluntarily posts this information, or links to this information, on Wikipedia themselves" as per Wikipedia:Harassment#Posting_of_personal_information. Anyways, I never used his name until after he posted a link from his userpage to his personal information on his website. I would suggest that he change this if he no longer want people to know it. And, I wasn't trying to silence him, just seeing through the IP address he was using, which he admitted this week enabled him to make anonymous edits since he "retired." I wonder if intentionally not using one's Wikipedia username when making edits and instead doing so under the guise of an IP address amounts to sockpuppetting? Emptymountains (talk) 20:22, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- Emptymountains, the first WP:outing was made in October 2006 as you can see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:New_Kadampa_Tradition/Archive_6#Kind_request_for_kt66_to_stop_editing_this_article The addition of a link similar as you mention was made on 23:05, 3 May 2008 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Kt66&oldid=209994593 not before this date. It follows WP:outing happened before the link addition and was continued since then by many other editors, including you. Nowhere the user kt66 stated his name, did he? The addition to the external link was made after he retired from Wikipedia. As the user has never made a statement about his name neither on his personal page, his talk page nor on the talk pages of articles he worked on, for me this is clearly a violation of WP:outing, much more as the tone of many editors are rather aggressive and WP:outing appears to me to just be a mean to silence the editor (me). I will wait what a neutral editor I contacted states and what or if he will report it to the Admin board or if I report it there if he doesn't. Best wishes. --Kt66 (talk) 22:16, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- Dear Emptymountains, WP:outing was practised also by you and others regarding the 79.171.58.252 see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dorje_Shugden_controversy#Chatral_Rinpoche and the talk page on the NKT website (see responses to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:New_Kadampa_Tradition#NPOV_and_others_POV). There is no statement of a personal name by 79.171.58.252 nor is there a link from which you could have derived a name. You have derived the name from personal investigation and this website: http://newkadampatradition.wordpress.com/2008/09/05/tenzin-peljor-editor-and-chief/ where you also commented your investigation don't you? By the way the 79.171.58.252 I use sometimes but at the place where I live about 70 or more people use the same IP, there are edits on computer games I have no idea at all. --Kt66 (talk) 05:57, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- Okay, when you "retire" again and an anonymous IP user edits mainly the NKT-IKBU, Dorje Shugden, and WSS articles using phrases like "neutral academic researcher Kay also states...," then I'll ask them if they are "Kt66" rather than "you-know-who" Emptymountains (talk) 13:35, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
Anyone who wants to keep up with Kt66's self-outing, please see this discussion at the admin's page where he reported it. Emptymountains (talk) 15:43, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
Katie - sorry, i had no idea you wanted to remain in the closet. Posting without using your sername intentionally (i've done it myself carelessly) smacks of intellectual dishonesty, but if you use Kt66, i'll try to call you Kt66 from now on. also, i'll remove those "outings" i've posted previously. Atisha's cook (talk) 09:35, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
As so many NKT editors defend their WP:outing approach, I add a comment by another Admin made on the Admin notice board and I hope such attacks will stop from now on.
- Although it should be noted that unless a user is currently publicly and overtly claiming their identity (such as using their own name as a user name, or repeatedly using their own real name in discussions) it is bad form to dig through such reports in order to "Out" a user. Yes, you could probably dig up my real name and address if you are dedicated enough, but that doesn't mean that because you could find it, posting such information would not be a violation of WP:OUTING. It is bad etiquette of the worst kind to publish another user's real information without there consent, regardless of how easy it was for you to find it on your own. If people don't want to be known by their real name at Wikipedia, we must respect that at all costs... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 20:38, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
best wishes. --Kt66 (talk) 09:20, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
- Kt66, as always you are very selective in what you choose to post. Here's another admin's perspective from that same Admin notice board: "...By linking a website you run to a userpage, you have automatically provided some tools for someone to track you - this may even include your personal address." Emptymountains (talk) 14:51, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
- See my answer and our discussion here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dorje_Shugden_controversy#Third-Party_Sources
- The first quick reply by an Admin was:
- Can I just say this: there are a lot of links on that version of the userpage, so I'm not 100% sure which one you are involved in. However, a WHOIS database is open to anyone. A WHOIS database lists the "owner" of any domain name. These are a matter of public record. By linking a website you run to a userpage, you have automatically provided some tools for someone to track you - this may even include your personal address. ►BMW◄ 13:29, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
- Also for him it seems to be hard to recognize what link links to a personal page. Then he is giving an answer on the WHOIS which was not the point here, and states what he states. However, all this looks not like a careful investigation if WP:outing is fulfilled or not, so I skipped this reply, as something which clarifies the issue. For the archive see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive494#Repeated_Violation_of__WP:outing_and_reverts_of_my_edits.2C_although_based_on_WP:RS_and_NPOV_policies
- It is factual wrong of you to claim a "self-outing", this spins the facts. However, as corrected by you, I was wrong with respect to the IP outing, this was not you, so I excuse honestly, with respect to this wrong claim. -- Kt66 (talk) 16:43, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
Kt66
It looks like we're getting into lots of edit wars here. It seems to me that the article's getting unwieldy and overlong; if every statement about NKT-IKBU must be preceded by "NKT-IKBU says in its own literature..." or "NKT-IKBU characterises itself as..." it gets very unreadable very quickly. Is this really necessary? You wouldn't qualify every single assertion on an article about Christianity with "Some Jewish/Hindu/Buddhist/Muslim scholars disagree, but Christians say that they follow the principals of Jesus' teaching, who (they believe) is the Son of God (but other traditions dispute this." It would be ridiculous. Surely, it's clear that the statements regarding NKT-IKBU's nature etc. are derived from their own statements on this, and mentioning this briefly is sensible ("According to the NKT-IKBU Internal Rules..." etc.) - but *every* time?
With all due respect to him, it is abundantly clear that Kt66 has a specific pov and anti-NKT-IKBU bias. Whilst it's correct to prevent the article becoming a propaganda piece promoting NKT-IKBU beliefs, and all care should be taken by NKT practitioners editing this article to keep statements factual and NPOV, Kt66's motivation here appears to be simply destructive, and the majority of his recent edits contribute little to the clarity or usability of the article. He may accuse some editors of bias, but it seems to me clear that he is by no means without bias himself.
I appeal to him - please stop using this WP article to promote your anti-NKT-IKBU views. Some mention of controversy and criticism is warranted, and can be found in the article already - there's enough to make the article balanced and factual. There is no benefit to the general, non-biased reader in your continuous addition of more negative pov material.
Atisha's cook (talk) 12:54, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
- Atisha's cook you neither seem to see clearly the developments of the article, because you removed also the edits of emptymountains nor seem you to know how WP functions based on NPOV and WP:RS 3rd party source, much more the principle that sources have to been quoted correctly. WP is not favouring a certain opinion but gathers factual material of 3rd party WP:RS and states them in WP:NPOV manner. All my edits follow these principles and the reasons and sources I have added extensively above. You did in no way contribute on an factual or knowledge level, personal preferences of dislikes or likes are no issue for WP nor should it be too much for the editors. The problem is that how NKT defines and portrays themselves and how neutral 3rd party sources portray them are as different as day and night, therefore the "according" phrase is the best solution to provide WP:NPOV besides NKT's WP:SPS are congruent with 3rd party academic WP:RS. In general no editors from an organisation should contribute, see WP:COI, your reverts are strongly based on WP:COI rather than of knowledge about WP guidelines and 3rd party sources and how to use them. Therefore I revert again your edits. It is plain wrong to claim my edits "promote your anti-NKT-IKBU views" the are based on neutral 3rd party WP:RS and follow WP guidelines, your judgement just shows that you have a WP:COI. best wishes, --Kt66 (talk) 13:20, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
- I understand the WP:NPOV ethos and sgree with it, but I really don't think you can reasonably claim not to have a strong POV on this yourself, nor that your edits are free from this bias, can you? I edited text first added by emptymountains in the interests of improving the article, not promoting my own views; in this, emptymountains and I clearly can and should co-operate. The fact that he shares some of my views (and surely disagrees with me on many other points!) needn't prevent this: as you say, the essence of WP is not in the promotion of our viewpoints, but in presenting clear and succinct, factual and encyclopaedic information.
- This is where I feel you're unqualified to edit this article. Your aim appears to be not to inform but to influence, whilst hiding behind the WP guidelines. For example, you use here a BBC article as a WP:RS; this is the same article that you yourself succeeded in having changed by contacting it's authors and directing them to this Wiki, which at the time was written almost exclusively by you! Now, the BBC has posted your views, taken from this Wiki in its previously unchallenged and uncorrected state, and you have linked back to the BBC article as a WP:RS! That takes a lot of forethought, dedication and hard work. Are you seriously claiming to be capable of dispassioned and reasonable editing on this topic? If we keep this up, maybe an Admin will look into it, and I'd welcome that.
- Atisha's cook (talk) 13:39, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
If you think I am unqualified you can let check Admins or other neutral users my edits, and ask them if they are appropriate. I wonder how you can accept NKT editors, who run their own NKT or Shugden blogs as editors, but not an editor who disagrees with their inclusions of WP:SPS and balanced the section by using 3rd party WP:RS. For me it is clear that you have a WP:COI as I already stated. If you have factual information or knowledge based on WP:RS or I violated the WP guidelines or quoted sources wrongly please feel free to add and correct. Regarding BBC you are not well informed. The only thing which is true is, that I complaint to BBC and that they finally changed the article. Mainly I asked them to consult Buddhist specialists. Do you believe really they change an article just because an email complaints about an article without verifying it by consulting qualified 3rd party sources? As far as I can see also NKT complaint to BBC and due to this they've probably removed the word 'cult' from the main article, which they had included before. --Kt66 (talk) 13:45, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
- If I may, the issue of outing of kt66 and his conduct are related. I will respond here, because it seems more relevant under this heading. Normally of course I agree there should not be any 'outing' of Wikipedia users, however in this case it is not an issue of privacy but of demonstrating a lack of good faith on the part of an editor. kt66 (he who shall not be named) spends countless hours under his real name on blogs, websites, discussion forums, basically anywhere and everywhere doing everything he can to deter people from and to smear the NKT. He has a long history of doing this, as long as his history with the NKT. Therefore, it is clear from his non-Wiki work that his intention in coming on Wikipedia is not to be a good faith NPOV editor, but rather to advance his own anti-NKT agenda. Any neutral observer investigating his other activities would clearly realize and understand this. Therefore, when he comes to NKT related Wiki articles, he is not sincerely acting in good faith, rather he does what he can to manipulate the Wikipedia guidelines to mask his true intentions. If kt66 was honest with himself about this, he would be forced to agree. For him to claim that he is trying to be a neutral editor of the articles is either disengenuous or self-deception. Either way, it has no place on Wikipedia.
- If you check all of my contributions to any of the Wikipedia articles you will see that they have all been aimed at providing balance and expressing the issues in a neutral way. I cannot speak for other editors, but my intention is to make the articles factual and enclylopedic. The problem is this: as the history of these pages show, when editors come to these pages with an agenda, then it forces the other side to respond in kind, and then either we wind up with edit wars or the articles become unwieldly as each side adds its refutations and counter-refutations (see the Dorje Shugden controversy article for a case and point). Such a process is endless. Wikipedia is not a battleground, but an encylopedia. If certain editors (on either side) have nothing better to do with their time and their minds than to wage cyber-warfare against one another, there are other forums for doing so, but please don't debase Wikipedia in this way. If an article on George Bush can remain neutral, balanced and avoid self-defeating edit wars, then certainly we should be able to so with these articles.
- Please, people. These articles are finally starting to look like regular wikipedia articles. Lets not once again go down the ugly road that has been visited so many times in the past. The last week or so has been shameful. Certainly we all have better things to do with our time than waste it hitting the revert button back and forth. --Dspak08 (talk) 14:12, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
- Dspak08, thank you for your comments ... I agree wholeheartedly. I can't say that I've checked all of your contributions, but from my recollection you have definitely done a really helpful job on this article presenting the material in a fair and balanced way - including the criticisms of the NKT. I definitely think this article is looking worlds better than it did just a year ago ... I think it is a nice, concise, clear summary about the NKT. There are probably some sections that could be shortened, but I think the general tone is clear and factual, exactly what people are looking for when they come to Wikipedia. Please keep up the good work, and let's none of us get involved in ridiculous debates about insignificant points, but focus on keeping this article high-quality and straightforward. Peaceful5 (talk) 06:36, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Dspak08 - fair enough comment. I shouldn't rise to the bait, and I recognise that my own need to correct this defamation comes as much from my own attachment to my own pov, as my desire to maintain a balanced article. However, if the article were truly succinct and factual, I'd be prepared to leave it alone. In fact, I would be prepared to stop editing on this and related articles altogether and leave it to more dispassionate editors, if Kt66 makes a similar promise. Atisha's cook (talk) 16:37, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
- Dspak, kt66, Atisha's cook, Thank you for all your good points. I agree with kt66 and everyone else that it is good to have different POVs etc on the article, and I feel we have all together done a reasonable job on that. I also think it is fair and necessary to counter kt66 (and anyone else) when they make an inaccurate statement, and I appreciate Atisha's cook patience in doing this above. For example, about the BBC, it is quite significant that they include the word "cult" on one place on their website. But there is a reason for this -- kt66 did say himself in another anti-NKT chat forum that he had personally managed to get the BBC to include the name "cult" by writing to them over and over again (they would not accept at first) and sending them every anti-NKT article he could find; so it is disingenuous for him to say that the BBC just added it out of the blue. However, I also agree with Dspak's points. (Truthbody (talk) 19:42, 26 November 2008 (UTC))
reply
I wonder why there is a section on my person here? Maybe I make a section about all the present editors, and ask if all these NKT editors may have a WP:COI and if they are members of the 'NKT truth team', running bizarre websites? I think the sources I use are very acceptable and unlike NKT I do not label 3rd party sources like Kay's as "heavily biased "academic" book by David Kay (who had his own disgruntled history with the NKT when he briefly attended meditation classes in Lancaster)" or as being "emotionally unstable". --Kt66 (talk) 19:34, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
O-Kaaaay...
In the "Historical Development of the NKT-IKBU" section, a Wikipedia:Verifiability template has been added saying that the section needs third-party sources. Of the 6 references given in that section, half are from David Kay.
I also noticed in the write-up by Peter Clark (i.e., the NKT-IKBU is a "controversial Tibetan Buddhist NRM"), he cites only three references, and they're all from Kay! Wasn't there some discussion by admins a couple of years back that this article shouldn't be "David Kay's opinion on the NKT"?
P.S. Can't we archive some of this talk page? I know that the same things keep coming up again and again, so it's good for people to read what's been discussed before. But, that makes it hard to search the page for keywords in the most recent discussions. Thanks! Emptymountains (talk) 12:01, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
- I concur with the idea to archive this stuff, certainly.
- wrt Kay - I agree also that he is overused. While he may be "academic"(though this has been questioned...), "neutral" and 3rd-party, the paucity of reliable 3rd=party scholarship on this topic shouldn't mean that we give undue weight to one person's view. This does *not* equate to giving undue weight to Geshe Kelsang's view - after all, his teachings are what NKT-IKBU is based on! What I'm saying is that in terms of "3rd-party, neutral, academic" research, I agree that Kay is vastly overrepresented here. Atisha's cook (talk) 12:22, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
The section gives a reference to Kay but Kay does not state what the section claims he would state, therefore I removed the wrong reference now. Besides the reference about the charity trust number the section relies on NKT blogs or NKT pages and diligently excludes Kay who is besides Waterhouse the only one who researched NKT history. All this has already been stated above (see Talk:New_Kadampa_Tradition#History_of_the_New_Kadampa_Tradition, and I made also a suggestion on how a summery of NKT history can be presented according to WP:RS (3rd party) sources. WP:SPS and especially blog pages are not suited in this context, except maybe the are balanced by 3rd party sources. --Kt66 (talk) 13:29, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
New Archive
Hello all, I'm creating a new archive page, as suggested by Emptymountains above. The stuff I'm moving is all old and has not generated any discussion since the end of September. I'm keeping all of the sections that had active discussion. If you don't like this idea, let's discuss. The archive page is here: Talk:New Kadampa Tradition/Archive 8
repeated deletion of 3rd party sources
As long as editors delete 3rd party WP:RS like in the Intro-Section and base the article heavily on WP:SPS made by the organisation the article violates WP guidelines. I tried to find a compromise with the NKT editors by using NKT's WP:SPS and balancing them by 3rd party WP:RS. The latter is exactly what WP demands. As this has been repeatedly deleted I added now the 3rd party template also in this section. My suggestion for the Intro is this:
Introduction to the NKT-IKBU
- The NKT-IKBU describes itself in the booklet "Modern Day Kadampas" as a Mahayana Buddhist school founded by the Indian Buddhist Master Atisha (AD 982-1054). The NKT-IKBU states "Ka" refers to Buddha Shakyamuni's teachings, and "dam" to Atisha's instructions known as "the stages of the path to enlightenment". According to the NKT-IKBU, by integrating their knowledge of all Buddha's teachings into their practice of the stages of the path to enlightenment (Tib. Lamrim), and by integrating this into their everyday lives, NKT-IKBU members (who call themselves "Kadampa Buddhists") are encouraged to use Buddha's teachings as practical methods for transforming their daily activities into the path to enlightenment, improving their love, compassion and wisdom.
- According to the NKT-IKBU, it is an association of over 1100 Buddhist Centers and groups that derive their inspiration and guidance from the example of the ancient Kadampa Buddhist Masters and their teachings, as presented to the modern world by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso.[73] The NKT-IKBU is an independent religious organization[74] aiming to "principally follow the teachings and example of Je Tsongkhapa".[41]
- Bluck states that there is still disagreement about how to interpret NKT history.[75] He sees an "an apparent contradiction between claiming a pure Tibetan lineage and separating completely from contemporary Tibetan tradition."[76]
- BBC states that "Critics have described the New Kadampa Tradition as a breakaway movement and argue that the New Kadampa Tradition, as it is known today, is not part of the ancient Kadampa Tradition but a split from the Gelug school of Tibetan Buddhism."[77]
If there is no agreement my suggestion is to consult WP editors not involved in NKT discussion for their opinion. --Kt66 (talk) 11:56, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
- Those bottom two paragraphs are in a different place in the article, namely in the Controversy - Separation from Tibetan Buddhism section. Emptymountains (talk) 12:40, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
- This doesn't matter to me. They can be removed there if redundant. The section claims to offer a Introduction to the NKT-IKBU but stated only WP:SPS of the organisation. This is both inappropriate for WP as well as misleading the reader, because what is stated there is the belief only within the organisation and it excludes the view held from people outside of the organisation. At least it should present both (contradicting) aspects or only 3r party sources. This is how encyclopaedic articles should be written in WP. --Kt66 (talk) 13:24, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Another problem is the use of WP:SPS from the organisation in the very first section which mixes views in the intro held by the organisation but seen not that way by 3rd party sources. At least I made this WP:NPOV. It is just crazy if some editors think they can continue like this: removing 3rd party WP:RS, basing the article on NKT's WP:SPS and stating the claims from them not in WP:NPOV at it is required for WP. --12:07, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
- Kt66 said in an edit summary, "these are all WP:SPS and should'nt be used at all," which sounds too 'black-or-white' to me. According to WP:SPS, "Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, especially in articles about themselves" as long as 7 criteria are met. (Please see Using SPS as sources on themselves.) I think it would be helpful when removing SPS to specify which of those 7 criteria is being violated and why. Emptymountains (talk) 12:37, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
- This is black-and-white I agree, compromises can be made. But as the inner view of NKT and outer view differ so much, and there are enough 3rd party WP:RS the exclusive reliance on NKT's WP:SPS is very questionable. If we don't come to agreement we can ask for mediation or 3rd party opinion by other editors. --Kt66 (talk) 13:24, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
- Speaking of redundancy, I think the whole "Introduction to the NKT-IKBU" section just repeats information (albeit in different words) that is found elsewhere in the article. Why not just do away with it? Emptymountains (talk) 13:39, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
- This is black-and-white I agree, compromises can be made. But as the inner view of NKT and outer view differ so much, and there are enough 3rd party WP:RS the exclusive reliance on NKT's WP:SPS is very questionable. If we don't come to agreement we can ask for mediation or 3rd party opinion by other editors. --Kt66 (talk) 13:24, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Thanks to those who improved my poor English in the very first section. --Kt66 (talk) 13:29, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
- Kt66 - the para.s that you are replicating from the Controversy - Separation from Tibetan Buddhism section belong there, not in the Introduction. they are not introductory: they cover one small aspect of the organisation only - its separation from Tibetan Buddhism. the Controversy - Separation from Tibetan Buddhism section is the appropriate place for them, and they would be redundant if added to the Introduction.
- Atisha's cook (talk) 13:43, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
- When I look at the FPMT article on Wikipedia, I see a great deal of self-referential material and far less reliance on neutral third-party sources. And there is no mention of their controversies, for example their staggering discrimination toward practitioners of the tradition of their own Founder Lama Yeshe. I can't help but find this interesting -- kt66 wishes to hold the NKT to far higher standards than his own FPMT. And this is more ironic considering the FPMT have a odd and highly dubious policy of discrimination against Shugden practitioners -- who cannot get ordained, teach, or even attend teachings! (One of their senior monks and close disciples of the Founder Lama Yeshe calls the FPMT treatment of Buddhist Centers who rely upon Dorje Shugden a "witch hunt". There are hundreds of testimonials of NKT students being ostracized and criticized by FPMT students and Centers).
- I see that until now NKT students have not gone into the FPMT article and tried to change the whole article based on this controversial and bad behaviour on the part of the FPMT -- perhaps this is so as not to create more bad feeling and in order to accept the defeat according to the Lojong teachings. But kt66 has absolutely no such compunction, as an FPMT student, coming onto the NKT article and trying to rewrite it with as much controversy and criticism as he can find "third-party" quotes for.
- This whole thing is a reflection of what happens in the "real world". If you attend an NKT Center, you don't hear a bad word about the FPMT, despite the fact that they have been trying to undermine the NKT for years (check out just a few of the stories on http://www.newkadampatruth.org). But if you attend an FPMT Center, your feet are barely inside the door before you hear that the NKT are a demon-worshipping Dalai Lama bashing cult. This FPMT on-going attack on the NKT tradition and NKT students (on Wiki led by kt66), and the NKT refraining from attacking the FPMT (and generally not criticizing other religious traditions) are both reflected on Wikipedia. (Truthbody (talk) 01:50, 2 December 2008 (UTC))
I solved that problem with the pre-history by using 3rd party WP:RS and made a subpage on NKT's pre-history. See Prehistory of the New Kadampa Tradition. --Kt66 (talk) 15:00, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
- Very sneaky! But this has not solved any problem at all, it has just created a new one. This new article is redundant -- all the material is covered in the NKT article and Manjushri article. The only need for such an article, written by you, seems to be so that you don't have to cooperate with other editors and can just write your own version of NKT history (at least until the other editors join you there). There is no reason for there to be another article on the NKT, this is just silly. You are not playing fair. (Truthbody (talk) 17:10, 2 December 2008 (UTC))
The last version as it came out by user:emptymountains is 100% acceptable for me and seems to be quite fair. To avoid redundance with Clarke I added Barrett in the controversy section.
the passage reads now:
- The New Kadampa Tradition ~ International Kadampa Buddhist Union (NKT-IKBU) is a global Buddhist organization founded by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso in England in 1991. In 2003 the words "International Kadampa Buddhist Union" (IKBU) were added to the original name "New Kadampa Tradition". The NKT-IKBU is an international non-profit organization registered in England as a charitable company.[78]
- The NKT-IKBU is a Mahayana form of Buddhism, which has been developed from the Gelug school of Tibetan Buddhism.[79] The NKT-IKBU states that it follows the tradition of Kadampa Buddhism derived from the Buddhist meditators and scholars Atisha (AD 982-1054), and Je Tsongkhapa (1357-1419 AD),[80] as taught by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso.
- Oxford professor Peter Clarke has characterised the NKT-IKBU as a "controversial Tibetan Buddhist NRM,"[81] a characterization which the NKT-IKBU contests.[citation needed]
So what else should be wrong with this? If we can't find agreement we should ask opinion of other editors. Best wishes --Kt66 (talk) 18:35, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
FPMT controversies
To save time this sub-section. Dear NKT editors, there are no FPMT controversies nor is there any 3rd party source - as far as I know - which reports about a FPMT controversy. Unlike NKT neither Rick Ross, CIC nor INFORM received complaints about FPMT, nor is there any statement that they are "controversial" by a 3rd party source. So please don't mix the issues. FPMT is not very keen even to improve the rather poor article at WP. I removed in the past claims which were added (probably by NKT followers) without sources and were rather awkward. I am also no member of FPMT or student of Lama Zopa. So please don't claim I would be partial to them. best wishes. --Kt66 (talk) 18:32, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
- Nonsense kt66, there are plenty of FPMT controversies. The article on the FPMT reads like their own website, and any attempt at introducing anything less glowing has been removed by you. There have been disrobings. There have been dubious business dealings. The history is controversial as it has broken away from the lineage of the Guru of the Founder Lama Yeshe, something far more unprecedented in Buddhist history than the NKT continuing with the tradition of its lineage Gurus. The FPMT have an actual policy of discrimination pretty much unheard of in other Buddhist organizations that are akin to the Jim Crow laws -- no Shugden practitioner can even attend FPMT teachings now!! Non-Buddhists can, but certainly not Buddhist Shugden practitioners, who are accused as being demon-worshippers!! This is even though the Founder of the FPMT and two-thirds of its lineage Gurus were Shugden practitioners. Lama Osel has a diminishing and difficult role in the organization he created in his past life. One could mention the profound sadness of old devoted disciples of Lama Yeshe, such as Sangye Yeshe; and the fact that many of them over the years have had to go underground with their spiritual practices. One could talk about how the FPMT promotes the cult of the Dalai Lama and doesn't blink an eyelid in doing so, and how it seems perfectly acceptable and normal to talk about him as the father and mother, the saviour, the unsurpassed, the equal to Buddha, the only hope, the only light in this dark world, the sun and the moon and everything in between etc etc -- whereas the NKT cannot say the slightest good thing about Geshe Kelsang without being pounced upon as cult members. One could give details on how the FPMT never seem to cease criticizing the NKT and have been known to tear up publicity, get locations cancelled, shout at NKT members in public, try and destroy the faith of many NKT students, and cause the NKT to be banned from local Buddhist organizations. None of these things have been mentioned so far on that sanitized FPMT article! You cannot seem to see it, kt66, but this situation is hypocritical. Should sauce for the goose not also be sauce for the gander? Although I do not agree with everything the FPMT does, I still have no desire to start analyzing and criticizing them on their article, finding all the third-party neutral sources to back this criticism up. But when will FPMT members like you stop criticizing the NKT? (Truthbody (talk) 19:55, 3 December 2008 (UTC))
So, you study on the Geshe program of the FPMT but have no allegiance to them?! (Truthbody (talk) 19:57, 3 December 2008 (UTC))
- And, as you know, it is disingenuous to mention Rick Ross -- you are the one who has written the most about the NKT on that forum, where anyone can write anything about anyone!! I could easily go on there and start a thread explaining the hundreds of times the FPMT have slandered the NKT -- just because I choose not to doesn't mean the FPMT is not cult-like in its behaviour, it just means that I and other in the NKT are not grinding our axes about it, unlike you. And you have received many good replies from NKT practitioners on there. Also, INFORM told the NKT that they do not consider them a cult. Plus, this is so disingenuous -- youu are the one who wrote to INFORM and encouraged a letter-writing campaign to them on the NKT survivors site (the fact that you are so prolific on that site shows clearly that you have wp:coi. (Truthbody (talk) 20:02, 3 December 2008 (UTC))
Dear Truthbody, I think you are just ill-informed and you mix different issues. People can disrobe, this is allowed by the Buddha, and there is nothing wrong with this, what is wrong is what the successors of GKG did: being outwardly monk but... you know it yourself. NKT's aversion against disrobing, a feature allowed by the Buddha, is again unique only to NKT. To disrobe constitutes no controversy, but to have sexual relationships as a monk with students does. I never read such a non-sense that FPMT would have broken away from its founder, this is ridiculous, it neither is true with the facts nor would you find a quote in a 3rd party source approving such a distorted version of history. I save my time to go into more details which seem to be taken from the NKT truth site and are just baseless. If you wish to contribute maybe you use 3rd party reliable sources. With respect to the claim that I am a FPMT follower. This is plain wrong. I am mainly affiliated (for more than 5 years) with Kagyue and had the chance to study classical Buddhist texts either in India (Kagyue) or Europe (Italy) (Gelug), I decided for the latter. Although the place is run by FPMT, I am no member, nor affiliated with them in any other way, like IMI. I am very independent, in many ways. In my study breaks I go back to my Kagyue center to support them by giving courses on Buddhism, I do not support or work for FPMT. They are just very generous to allow monks not affiliated with the organisation to make use of their structure and generosity. They do not expect to become a member or supporter of them. You can see I contributed on almost all Buddhist controversial topics, including FWBO, Soka Gakkai International, Michael Roach, Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Tibetan), Karmapa controversy, Ole Nydahl. When the editors of the FWBO article quoted from anonymous websites (FWBO-files) I added a "neutrality disputed" template and suggested as I did here 3rd party academic sources and gave also a list, see possibly scholarly sources for FWBO. With respect to Rick Ross, CIC or Inform. As far as I know these three organisations received for more than 12 years continuously complaints about NKT from family members, former members and others. This has nothing to do with me. I appeared only at RR forum recently when NKT members spread wrong information there and someone sent me an email to let me know. It is everybody's right to correct wrong claims. So please don't spin the facts. Use WP:RS. Best wishes, --Kt66 (talk) 09:41, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
- It is also wrong to claim that I would have "encouraged a letter-writing campaign to them on the NKT survivors site". NKT members seem not to know the facts and believe to much the "NKT 'truth' site". --Kt66 (talk) 09:59, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
- We will simply have to agree to disagree, it'll save us both lots of time! (Truthbody (talk) 19:25, 8 December 2008 (UTC))
Moving controversial subjects to controversy section
As we now have a larger controversy section, I suggest we put the controversial material in there, so that it can let the reader have different points of view (which is what a controversy is). I have moved Peter Clarke's controversial statement about the NKT being a NRM. It is not an NRM according to the NKT-IKBU and many others -- plus Clarke's view is certainly not the most common view of the NKT and therefore does not belong in the introduction. So, Clarke's POV is still there, but in the right place. What do other editors think? (Truthbody (talk) 02:32, 2 December 2008 (UTC))
- Okay, kt66 and Emptymountains, I am happy with the compromise Emptymountains came up with between me thinking Clarke's controversial comment was not correctly placed in the intro and kt66 thinking it was the best place for it. So, it is in there, but also disputed, in simple (non-long-winded!) language. (Truthbody (talk) 18:53, 2 December 2008 (UTC))
So, why does kt66 not allow there to be a controversy section for the FPMT? This is relevant to the suitability or not of kt66 as an editor on the NKT articles. I am interested in knowing this and why he does not add more and more third-party sources and different (i.e. non-FPMT POVs) on that article, as he insists that we do on here? To me, this reflects his bias and wp:coi very clearly. I notice that some editors did add some of the FPMT controversy to the FPMT article some time ago, but that kt66 removed it, giving the reason that both Lama Zopa and Lama Yeshe voluntarily gave up the practice of Dorje Shugden (untrue, of course, Lama Yeshe practiced til his death) and that the history of Manjushri is controversial for the NKT but not for the FPMT! (That makes no sense. If anything it is the other way round.) I still have no wish to dive into the FPMT article and would rather let the FPMT and kt66 do what they want with that article (as long as they do not overtly criticize the NKT, in which case I feel the need to defend the NKT). However, for the record, this is another example of an FPMT student criticizing the NKT and not accepting any criticism back in turn. (Truthbody (talk) 18:53, 2 December 2008 (UTC))
The point with Clarke is that that the intro should give a proper definition what NKT is. It is not sufficient to use only NKT's own sources for this. Much more as the 3rd party sources see NKT very different from how NKT views itself. The categorization and statement by Clarke is just a proxy for the differences. For the controversy section David V. Barrett's quote can be used. Which had been already mentioned. I added now also Waterhouse as another WP:RS 3rd party source to the article. To balance the Intro. --Kt66 (talk) 15:17, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
- "To balance the Intro"? How is that? Now, 3 of the 4 paragraphs are all about the NKT-IKBU's separation from Tibetan Buddhism. Does this make for an accurate overview of what the article is about? Emptymountains (talk) 15:27, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
With respect, everyone: the Clark "NRM" para. is controversial, and pertains only to the controversy aspect of the article's subject, which is hardly defining: the article is about NKT, not the "NKT controversy" (there is no controversy, worthy of more than the short mention itreceives here). this isn't reasonably debatable! so the Contoversy section is the place for it. if anyone disagrees, maybe we can take a vote? Atisha's cook (talk) 18:06, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
There is a classic example of kt66 not working with other editors. Emptymountains worked hard with him to have an introduction that was acceptable to kt66 by including the comment by one person, Peter Clarke, and simply saying that the NKT rejects the claim. But kt66, satisfied at first, soon pushed to have the NKT counterpoint removed by saying there was no citation for it. But what does he think -- that the NKT agrees that it is an NRM? Of course it does not, no direct reply to Peter Clarke is actually required as it is so obvious. Why it does not was explained in detail in the controversy. So kt66 wanted in the introduction just Peter Clarke's controversial statement and no opposing POV about that statement, so the only way around it was for the NKT to put the whole argument back in again. And, now that we have done that, it makes no sense for it to stay in the introduction and it belongs in the actual controversy section. Any hope of a moratorium on this article is quite impossible for as long as kt66 keeps pushing and pushing his agenda. (Truthbody (talk) 18:14, 3 December 2008 (UTC))
kt66 conflict of interest?
kt66 has been busy today, creating a redundant new article on NKT prehistory with material that already appears in the main NKT article and Manjushri article so that he can write it all himself; and undoing all the edits made by other editors on the NKT article without good reason and ignoring their reasons. Whenever someone reverts any of his changes or disagrees with his biased edits, kt66 finds an excuse to report them to admin (as if we are in a playground). As many discussions have revealed, he uses third-party quotations (Kay, Bruck) selectively to back up only his own point of view.
It is clear from many discussions (archived) that kt66 has a very anti-NKT agenda and devotes hours to criticizing the NKT all over the Internet. His blogs and websites and numerous posts can be found all over the world wide web. Therefore his claims of neutrality are misleading. I think he clearly has a conflict of interest wp:coi when it comes to editing this article. I think this should be stated for the record. (Truthbody (talk) 17:46, 2 December 2008 (UTC))
- For the sake of transparency, please also see my comment above about user:kt66 contributions to the FPMT article, which seem to back up my claim that kt66 has wp:coi. Thanks. (Truthbody (talk) 19:01, 2 December 2008 (UTC))
- There is absolutely no way Kt66 can claim to be NPOV on this issue. For him to do so is nothing less than delusional. I freely declare myself an NKT practitioner, but I understand clearly that WP is not a forum for proselytising and my agenda is not promotion of my own viewpoint. I'd just like to see a balanced and factual article about a topic I'm very interested in, including whatever unflattering information may be pertinent. While Kt66 may make the same claim, I think that his other anti-NKT www activity clearly demonstrates that such a claim would be disingenuous in the extreme.
- Atisha's cook (talk) 19:14, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
- I have no problem if some posit a WP:COI with respect to me, but to be fair this can be posited as well to any other editor of that article. There is also some difference. I am no member of any organisation (unlike the NKT editors) and I use 3rd party WP:RS and do not rely on NKT's WP:SPS. --Kt66 (talk) 15:11, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
- Hardly. You find no NKT sympathetic editors trying to attack the FPMT article (where you study). You have an avowed intention to warn the world about the NKT -- that is what makes it WP:COI. (I'd include some of your many quotes about that here if you weren't so sensitive about being outed, but people can find them easily enough on the WWW.) (Truthbody (talk) 15:22, 3 December 2008 (UTC))
- You are studying on the FPMT Geshe program, so that makes you a member of that organization. This is not outing you, you have said this in your bios, i don't think you keep that a secret. There may be NKT members editing this article, of course, but I for one share Atisha's cook's view above i.e. I want to see a balanced and factual article written with a wp:npov, not something written by someone with an avowed intent to undermine the NKT. With that aim in mind, I am perfectly happy and willing to use wp:RS and you are incorrect to say otherwise. Moreover, I have seen you make edits on the FPMT article, so are you suggesting all FPMT members stop editing that article? How far do you take that?! Is no one in any organization allowed to talk about that organization on Wiki? Come on now, it is clear you have a wp:coi that is not shared by other editors. (Truthbody (talk) 15:31, 3 December 2008 (UTC))
- See the fiasco over the introduction for an example of how kt66 will push his agenda again and again until he gets what he wants. This is why there will never be able to be a moratorium on this article (see proposal below) because kt66 will not rest until he has his version. Looking over the recent discussions over the last few weeks, they all are based around kt66 and his agenda. (Truthbody (talk) 18:33, 3 December 2008 (UTC))
Answer (copy and paste from above):
- With respect to the claim that I am a FPMT follower. This is plain wrong. I am mainly affiliated (for more than 5 years) with Kagyue and had the chance to study classical Buddhist texts either in India (Kagyue) or Europe (Italy) (Gelug), I decided for the latter. Although the place is run by FPMT, I am no member, nor affiliated with them in any other way, like IMI. I am very independent, in many ways. In my study breaks I go back to my Kagyue center to support them by giving courses on Buddhism, I do not support or work for FPMT. They are just very generous to allow monks not affiliated with the organisation to make use of their structure and generosity. They do not expect to become a member or supporter of them. You can see I contributed on almost all Buddhist controversial topics, including FWBO, Soka Gakkai International, Michael Roach, Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Tibetan), Karmapa controversy, Ole Nydahl. When the editors of the FWBO article quoted from anonymous websites (FWBO-files) I added a "neutrality disputed" template and suggested as I did here 3rd party academic sources and gave also a list, see possibly scholarly sources for FWBO. With respect to Rick Ross, CIC or Inform. As far as I know these three organisations received for more than 12 years continuously complaints about NKT from family members, former members and others. This has nothing to do with me. I appeared only at RR forum recently when NKT members spread wrong information there and someone sent me an email to let me know. So please don't spin the facts. Use WP:RS. Best wishes, --Kt66 (talk) 09:41, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
--Kt66 (talk) 09:46, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
- Again, we can agree to disagree to save us both time, as I can see this will never end otherwise. You are hell-bent on saving everyone from the NKT and the NKT from themselves, and it seems from what you say here that you also like pushing the argument along on other "controversial" Buddhist subjects as well, so I'll leave you to your caped crusader mentality, good luck with that. (Truthbody (talk) 19:32, 8 December 2008 (UTC))
- Disagreeing or broadening the perspective by learning from all sides? I just found this piece at the FWBO article talk page. Still I follow that policy expressed here:
- As far as I know FWBO changed into a healthy group. Friends of the Theravada order in England told it to me. Scientific sources may reflect that and the article should be balanced in all ways. So when there is a FWBO site which reflects the past critisism and the actions FWBO has taken from it, it can also be added. I added a lot of scientific sources above and they will contain balanced material for the article. It would be very nice to have a proper and fair article. --Kt66 10:12, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
- If you label me as 'Anti' I think you block your own perspectives. You can see that I refused also the inclusion of newkadampa.com see What is the truth? because it does from my pov not fulfil WP standards. --Kt66 (talk) 21:33, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
- Disagreeing or broadening the perspective by learning from all sides? I just found this piece at the FWBO article talk page. Still I follow that policy expressed here:
I would like to make a proposal concerning all of the NKT related articles. I am doing it here as it seems the most appropriate place.
If I may, it seems to me like almost all of the editors involved in these articles are using Wikipedia as a battleground instead of trying to write a factual, neutral encyclopedia article. Both sides are doing whatever they can to try manipulate the wikipedia rules to make it look like they are being neutral and good faith Wiki editors, when in reality they are just trying to get their own version of the situation in. One side makes a statement, then the other side needs to refute it, then the first side needs to refute the refutation and on and on it goes. With the end result being the articles become ridiculously long and unreadable. The best example of this is the Dorje shugden controversy article, which is downright ridiculous! These articles have been subject to constant back and forth for many years, sometimes favoring one side, sometimes the other. As long as both sides are not embracing the real purpose of Wikipedia, this will go on forever as neither side will ever back down.
I have three different suggestions:
1. Ban the extremist editors (from both sides) from participating in the writing of the articles. Then, only those committed to the Wiki project and who are making a good faith attempt to provide a balanced, neutral and above all SHORT article will remain, enabling something to stabilize.
2. Adopt a 'nothing remains unless all agree' rule. If everyone agrees to this rule, then if anybody says anything another editor disagrees with, it can be deleted. What will remain will be only factual statments that everyone can agree with. The articles will necessarily become short, factual, neutral and encylopedic. Instead of trying to hash it out, which has proven fruitless after many many years, just agree we all have veto and whittle the article down to a bare bone, non-controversial minimum.
3. Delete all of the articles and put a 5 year moratorium on them coming back. When deletion requests first came up, I was opposed to the idea thinking that common ground might be found and the articles talk about relevant and topical issues. But I have changed my mind. This is endless and serving no purpose other than waste everyone's time. I am sure if you asked kt66 he would say he would stop if the pro-NKT people would stop. If you asked the pro-NKT people they would say they would stop if kt66 would stop. It seems to me that this is one area where we all agree. So lets all stop and delete the articles. If the two sides want to wage cyber warfare against one another about these issues, they can do so on their respective blogs. Wikipedia is an encylopedia, not a battleground. Since despite numerous attempts it seems there is no way Wikipedia would not degenerate into a battleground on these issues. So delete the articles and preserve the integrity of Wikipedia and free us all of the time burden of 'needing to respond to the last thing said by X editor'.
Please let me know what you all think of these proposals. --Dspak08 (talk) 19:50, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
- Although I like the idea of a 5-year moratorium, when this was suggested in the past the admins basically said, "Grow up!"
- However, how about a self-imposed moratorium? Kt66 seems to think that the current version is acceptable and should be protected, so let's all just leave it alone. Emptymountains (talk) 20:04, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
- If only! He did accept a mutually acceptable version for a few minutes, but then decided to push his luck further in the introduction by first adding a whole new paragraph by Waterhouse and then trying to remove the NKT counterpoint to Peter Clarke's statement, making the whole introduction about controversy and not about the NKT in accordance with his anti-NKT agenda. So, the moment editors take their eye off this article, kt66 will change it back to his old biased version. See discussion on wp:coi above. (Truthbody (talk) 18:38, 3 December 2008 (UTC))
- We can not continue like this. If I look on the previous outcome of the intro-section, this looks quite good:
- The New Kadampa Tradition ~ International Kadampa Buddhist Union (NKT-IKBU) is a global Buddhist organization founded by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso in England in 1991. In 2003 the words "International Kadampa Buddhist Union" (IKBU) were added to the original name "New Kadampa Tradition". The NKT-IKBU is an international non-profit organization registered in England as a charitable company.[82]
- The NKT-IKBU is a Mahayana form of Buddhism, which has been developed from the Gelug school of Tibetan Buddhism.[79] The NKT-IKBU states that it follows the tradition of Kadampa Buddhism derived from the Buddhist meditators and scholars Atisha (AD 982-1054), and Je Tsongkhapa (1357-1419 AD),[83] as taught by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso.
- Oxford professor Peter Clarke has characterised the NKT-IKBU as a "controversial Tibetan Buddhist NRM,"[84] a characterization which the NKT-IKBU contests.[citation needed]
- I think this is pretty fair and based on all different povs there are and it is also NPOV. If the editors are not able to work together, this includes me and everyone, and don't accept the WP guidelines and rules for articles, all this is again 'a fruitless case'. Many non-NKT editors have already given up, almost no Admin or uninvolved WP editor likes to contribute, to give his opinion or to suggest something. Presently it looks like there are only NKT editors, supplemented and challenged by my recent re-appearance, and edits. Of course some have very opposing views. However, I felt with user:emptymountains there is someone who is sensitive to the subject matter and doesn't reject 3rd party WP:RS as being biased and the like. In general I would prefer not to do anything at all here. But as I use Wikipedia and stumbled from time to time over the articles I felt, in that way as they were presented due to the changes by NKT editors, this is just not acceptable. This view has been expressed also during my retirement by User:20040302, who stated
- Two things. First of all, kt66 is retired. Secondly, I worked alongside kt66 on WP for a couple of years, and although he was sometimes furious at himself for having spent so much of his life promoting NKT, when he came here, he learned to balance his opinions carefully with fact. It was mainly due to his efforts that the NKT, DS, KG articles remained reasonably balanced. Of course, now that GKG has told his students to stay away from discussion groups, it is unlikely that his faithful followers would continue to edit and discuss on WP - but it appears this isn't the case. Once more, the said articles are blatantly biased in NKT's favour - so much so that they garner attention as being not much more than promo. material. If you wish to present the NKT, DS, GKG etc in a manner that meets the criteria of an encyclopedia, it is essential that you reflect the facts of these things in an impartial manner. Unfortunately, it appears that there are no students of GKG, of the DSS, or any other supporter who is yet able to do that.
- Sadly this rare non-NKT editor and non-former-NKT member has been quit his work as well at this and the related articles. He tried to ask for deletion.
- The first request for deletion can be read here. User:Amerique was asked by User:Excellentone to nominate the article for deletion. User:Excellentone appeared to me in all her arguments as being also a NKT editor. So there are only very rare exceptions of non-NKT editors. Another editor not affiliated with NKT was User:ClockworkSoul, although he criticised my edits strongly at one point, later he seem have to changed his mind, because he voted against the first deletion and stated instead "Speedy keep - Having a repairable POV is no basis for deletion.
- These are my points at this time. I wish to add that also the proposal was added by an active NKT member. So it looks like: 5-6 NKT editors and one counterpart (me) are working on the NKT article. Very interesting and maybe contraproductive.
- With respect to the proposal and the email I received from Dspak08, I will read it in detail and look what I can do or say. I will make a pause and would be happy if at least the last version of the intro-section can be accepted. If there is uncertainty I suggest to apply one of these three methods:
- Request for comment - The editor who suggested this to me said: "In the past, I have found this to be lacking, especially in cases where expert knowledge is required."
- Mediation - To sort out our differences without imposing a solution.
- Arbitration - To impose a solution upon the editors of the article. This can determine what kind of content or sources are acceptable.
- Best Wishes and thanks to all. --Kt66 (talk) 19:05, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
This was an Admins opinion:
- Please follow the steps of Wikipedia:Dispute resolution if you all can't reach agreement on the Talk page. I don't see any reason why admins should intervene, at this point. Avoid WP:Edit warring. Use an WP:RFC if there is an intractable dispute. Since I'm not planning to take any action, it would be better to continue this discussion on the article Talk page. EdJohnston (talk) 19:44, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
--Kt66 (talk) 21:20, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
thoroughly edits by some editors
Thank you, I didn't check who it was, I guess user:emptymountains. I just glanced through it and it is a great improvement. I put the word 'banning' in paranthesis, because it can not be stated that there is a general "ban". There were only advice in the beginning (see Mills), then there were institutional bans, and only recently since 2008 and only in the Gelug monasteries the practice was banned. Before the practice was allowed in the monasteries. Moreover there is no ban for NKT or any individual person. Tibet scholar Robert Barnett of Columbia University states: "since its form of spirit-worship is heterodox, provocative and highly sectarian in Buddhist terms and so more than likely to be banned from mainstream monasteries – while its claimed concerns about cases of discrimination in India should be addressed by working within the Tibetan community instead of opportunistically attacking the Dalai Lama in order to provoke misinformed publicity for their sect.” see: TibetanReview.net If you insist to use the word "ban" please make it NPOV by making clear who refers to this as "ban". The term "Ban" is quite a misleading simplification for what happened over the last decades. --Kt66 (talk) 13:52, 15 December 2008 (UTC) --Kt66 (talk) 13:52, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
Totalidiot's additions
With respect, Totalidiot - all this stuff has been debated ad nauseam; we have finally arrived at a workable article. Your recent edits contibute nothing new and serve only to reignite old arguments; they amount to little more than petulant antgonism. Please refrain from this behaviour - it's completely pointless.Atisha's cook (talk) 22:25, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
YontenG's addition of disputed tag
Yonten - please explain what exactly *in the article as it stands* warrants the inclusion of this tag? for an article to be "disputed" there must be some current disagreement amongst editors about its content: what, in the article, is being disputed?
you say "Edoitors from obth sides using Wiki as political tool"; your use of "sides" and "political" here is revealing. what sides? what is disputed?
this article has been worked on by a number of editors for some time to reach its current state. your inclusion of this tag is unwarranted, imo.Atisha's cook (talk) 11:07, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
- Come on Atisha, you have been banned repeatedly for editiwarring-you know what this is about-Where has the Lopez quote gone? You editted it out with no expl whatsoever-this is why this page needs the banners. Because fanatics intent on imposing their idealised view of a highly controversial religious movement (thats you;) are intent on confidence tricking the world into believing they are totally legit when in fact there are multiple questions about your history to be answered-Hnece the banners.'this article has been worked on by a number of editors for some time to reach its current state.'?????That should read 'this article has been worked on by a number of(NKT/WSS)editors for some time to reach its current state.' You are blagging/lying/ conning people. have you no morals?
- I pity you —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yonteng (talk • contribs) 11:28, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
- yes, i have been barred - once mistakenly as a "sock puppet" because i was editing from the same IP as another user (this bar was lifted when we explained that we were both attending the same conference, hence the same IP - this explanation was accepted), and once - rightly, and through my own naivety when i started editing on WP - for edit-warring. therefore i know something about it!
- it's very clear from your postr above that you have at least as much of an agenda as that you perceive in myself and other editors. those are strong accusations gthat you make. i am not trying to "con" or deceive anyone, or to use WP as a propaganda tool of some sort. i AM trying to keep WP articles on my own special area of interest and knowledge (Kadampa Buddhism etc.) free from the kind of "political" attack that you're here admitting to. your personal views and grievances have no place on WP. this article should be factual and non-contentious. of course, many of those editing it are likely to be NKT practitioners as, clearly, they have the greatest knowledge of this subject. it is unreasonable, however, to accuse them of therefore misusing WP or misrepresenting the subject. the article does not read like promotional material; it is factual and relatively baanced. your motivation, from what you've said, does not appear to be non-partisan or to improve the article, rather, it seems that it's you who wishes to use WP as a propaganda tool!
- while there may be some relevance or use for the Lopez quote - this is arguable, at least - i see no need or use for the disputed tag.
- please keep your personal crusades to yourself - or, at least, off WP.Atisha's cook (talk) 12:28, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Dont you have any mirrors?Personal? Look at yourself.Anthing mildlycritical of the NKT is immediately removed without reason by.........you!Yonteng (talk) 12:56, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
'many of those editing it are likely to be NKT practitioners as, clearly, they have the greatest knowledge of this subject.' This just shows how unfit you are to edit-would scientologists be the best people to edit the scientology page? Bunkum. If you want objectivity, dont ask a subject 'it's very clear from your postr above that you have at least as much of an agenda as that you perceive in myself and other editors.' So, if we are both allowed to speak, this brings balance. But since we are clearly not, neutrality banners are appropriate. I also note that many of the refs are from WSS pages. The WSS is ........the NKT. Supporting your position with your own websites is totally corrupt. Sorry AC but you cant claim neutrality; you are ehavily involved in waging a propaganda war across the web-not on my watch though. Love YontengYonteng (talk) 13:10, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
- Yonten - everyone is "allowed to speak" on WP, so long as that speech is in the interest of improving factual accuracy and readability of the articles. i try to follow this guideline - not, as you claim, to wage "a propaganda war across the web". on the other hand, you've admitted that propaganda is your intention, and by that admission, you've rather disqualified yourself as an impartial editor.
- reasoned contributions are welcomed; where they might prove contentious, it's a good idea to discuss them first here, on Talk. you have a very clear COI here because your intention is to put forward your own view, whereas other editors - NKT and non-NKT - have tried to collaborate to produce something accurate and acceptable. please take your crusade to other forums where they may be more appropriate and leave WP as a simple encyclopedia.Atisha's cook (talk) 14:22, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
'you've admitted that propaganda is your intention, and by that admission, you've rather disqualified yourself as an impartial editor.'Where? Where has Chris Fynn gone. Or KT66? Answer: they have given up editing because their contributions are invariably edited out without reason (Check their talk pages). Much of the contentious material that apppears here, particularly those critical of the NKT, is edited out without reason.Your assertion that I am into propaganda is just nonsense-All I want is to see two sides of the debate about the NKT featured here-not just pro NKT views. The NKT is HIGHLY controversial, but you wouldnt know it from the article. The page is therefore imbalanced. Why? because, via a team effort, you have bullied anyone who is not willing to see things from your perspective off the page. This must stop-employing the voice of reason while you bully prople off the web is easily seen through. In the case of this article, people have even set up web pages talking about the hypocrisy of NKT editors. So pretend to be neutral all you want; portray me as a neutral blackguard all you want-edit histories/talk pages/ alternative sites prove my perspective. Either be reasonable yourself or expect to be challenged PS Empty mountains-I have the Clatke book and you are wrong-do you have the book? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yonteng (talk • contribs) 15:40, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
- just to clarify my accusation - you quoted me and then replied thus:
- " 'it's very clear from your postr above that you have at least as much of an agenda as that you perceive in myself and other editors.' So, if we are both allowed to speak, this brings balance."
- i said "you perceive" this agenda (propaganda), not that i have such an agenda. i don't. but then you admitted to having such an agenda yourself by saying: "So, if we are both allowed to speak, this brings balance."
- you say the NKT is ""HIGHLY controversial". with respect, i disagree. where is all this controversy? where is it reported?
- imo, you have a clear personal disagreement with and dislike of this organisation. if you can't keep that dislike out of your editing, then it's unlikely to be a useful contribution to the article. Atisha's cook (talk) 18:04, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
- There is no reason for the "disputed tag". Yonteng, please give specific reasons for it rather than simply attack other editors. You are behaving unilaterally and, frankly, seem deliberately to be trying to insult other editors. This will not have any good results. (Truthbody (talk) 18:11, 8 May 2009 (UTC))
Then please feel free to raise the issue with the relevant authorities 'where is all this controversy? where is it reported?' Come on-its ALL OVER the web. To deny it is silly-Google NKT controversy for example-thousands of pages 'you admitted to having such an agenda yourself by saying: "So, if we are both allowed to speak, this brings balance."' Where does that say Im into propaganda? I would say I just want both parties to speak freely, no mention of 'propaganda' Remember'Propaganda is the dissemination of information aimed at influencing the opinions or behaviors of people. As opposed to impartially providing information, propaganda in its most basic sense, often presents information primarily in order to influence its audience.' Sound familiar? Its because that perfectly describes your activities. Come on , report me, lets have it out. Publicly, for all to see. 'you have a clear personal disagreement with and dislike of this organisation.'No, I loath lies, manipulation, deception and THESE are what I will fight against, for the sake of truth, no personal battles. I just cant abide people claiming the moral high ground while lying through their back teeth. Go well YontengYonteng (talk) 18:17, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
- I cannot make any sense of what you have just written, who are you talking to? I didn't say any of those things yet you seem to be answering me? In any event, it is clear that only you are the one who are having a problem and adding the tag. This article has been accepted by editors and moderators and has been considered acceptable. You have not given one valid reason for this tag. It is clear from your discussions that you have a bias against the NKT for whatever reason. If you want to edit the article, using reliable sources and not including this bias, go ahead; but this tag is not warranted by the article or anything you have said. By all means ask a moderator for their opinion on your unilateral decision to tag the article, but otherwise expect your tag to be removed over and over. Thanks. (Truthbody (talk) 18:24, 8 May 2009 (UTC))
Yonteng, the onus is on you. Per WP:NPOV dispute, "Drive-by tagging is strongly discouraged. The editor who adds the tag must address the issues on the talk page, pointing to specific issues that are actionable within the content policies." Emptymountains (talk) 21:55, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Dear yongteng, I've removed the tag again as you still have not listed the issues with this article as you see them. Just questioning the neutrality of the page is not enough, you have to say point by point why you believe the article is biased. You claim that you are awaiting input from the moderators but you have made no attempt to contact them. Until there is something more specific to go on, there is no justification for your tag. --Truthsayer62 (talk) 09:12, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
- Dear truthsayer (another member of the NKT gang who edit wars over this issue-independent 3rd parties please check edit history-also accused of suck puppetry alongside others already mentioned on this page I think-please correct me if Im wrong) i have replaced the banners-unfortuantely, I mistakenly placed my reasons on my own talk page so I have posted them here too PS It is emptymountains who has requested exrernal invigilation, not me-He/she is supposedly contacting them (see above)Now read on........
- I did? That's news to me! Emptymountains (talk) 12:39, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
- Dear Yonteng, you demean the teaching of the Buddha by being so mean and aggressive. I've already explained the reason for the sockpuppet accusation but because you assume bad faith, you don't accept it. I'm asking you again to state the specific instances where you dispute what the article says. Without specific examples and references to back up your assertions there's nothing to discuss and no justification for the tag you posted. --Truthsayer62 (talk) 12:18, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
Dear all. especially independent editors, Look, at all this stuff below-clear evidence of a propaganda war by the NKT on WP. The assertion above that there is no Anti Dalai war on the part of the NKT???Google NKT Dalai Lama-who co-ordinates attacks on the dalai. NKT founder KG. Who runs demos, NKT leaders. Who populate demos? NKT followers. Who dominates wiki articles NKT members-if this is not a concerted NKT csmpsign to attack the Dalai and establish the NKT as correct, what is?
Many WP editors who followed the WP guidelines gave up: one of them wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/New_Kadampa_Tradition_(2nd_nomination)
See also the following passage
'Secondly, I worked alongside kt66 on WP for a couple of years, and although he was sometimes furious at himself for having spent so much of his life promoting NKT, when he came here, he learned to balance his opinions carefully with fact. It was mainly due to his efforts that the NKT, DS, KG articles remained reasonably balanced. Of course, now that GKG has told his students to stay away from discussion groups, it is unlikely that his faithful followers would continue to edit and discuss on WP - but it appears this isn't the case. Once more, the said articles are blatantly biased in NKT's favour - so much so that they garner attention as being not much more than promo. material. If you wish to present the NKT, DS, GKG etc in a manner that meets the criteria of an encyclopedia, it is essential that you reflect the facts of these things in an impartial manner. Unfortunately, it appears that there are no students of GKG, of the DSS, or any other supporter who is yet able to do that. It is fascinating. If we read the texts of the Kadampa tradition (I recommend ISBN 0-86171-440-7 as a seminal work which accurately represents the entire lojong foundation, or the great translations of the LRCM for Je Rinpoche's Lam Rim.) we are told to reveal our own faults first, and to hide our qualities. This behaviour is NOT something readers find when coming across the NKT sponsored pages of WP. Instead, they are faced with no mention of the controversies, politics or sexual escapades that the organisation is stained with.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:New_Kadampa_Tradition/Archive_8#kt66_aka_Tenzin_Paljor
you can also take a look at Rudhy’s page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Rudyh01#The_never-ending_story_about_Shugden
Kt66 has abandoned his substantial wiki contributions See http://westernshugdensociety.wordpress.com/2009/04/15/wikipedia-dorje-shugdens-enlightened-lineage-or-how-to-make-history/#comment-988
Also, Chris Fynn has stopped contributing-see his page
These people are real propaganda spreading cyber bullies, shafting the innocent public by hijacking wiki to post their own particular version of the 'truth' on NKT, Dorje Shugden, DS Controversy and Kelsang Gyatso pages-All I want is to see neutrality banners at the top of these pages. In this way wiki covers itsels and behaves morally responsibly in this ugly cyber war that the group have perpetuated for several years now. Wikipedia has a moral obligation to warn the public that these pages are less than reliable.In the meantime Nutrality banners are essentialYontenGYonteng (talk) 09:54, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
All of the sites blow provide evidence of the NKT edit war
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Truthbody could be a sockpuppet of
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Truthsayer62
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikipedia_sockpuppets_of_Wisdombuddha
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_26#Dorje_Shugden
NB the NKT 'truth’ site admits their activity on WP, stating:
“Due to the introduction of reliable sources and facts, those articles have gradually become more neutral and balanced,”
http://newkadampatruth.org/behind-the-lies/#a1 YontenYonteng (talk) 10:04, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
- um - that statement "admits" nothing, explicitly or implicitly. ok - i get it - you have some serious issue here and you're very unhappy about it. but it really seems to me that you're seeing monsters under the bed. and you STILL haven't provided even one example of the content that you feel is disputed. until you can provide some instance of content that can *reasonably* be called "disputed" then your constant addition of the disputed tag is no more than vandalism, and is rather petulant. please understand - there's no conspiracy out to get you, and the removal of unwarranted tags and unconstructive edting is NOT bullying. Atisha's cook (talk) 11:16, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
OK Cook, Truth sayer, Truth body, empty mountains Bring it on-now any independent editor has all of the above to look at, evidence of wrongodoing on the part of your edit team is widespread. You threatened to bring external parties in , now you say its my job-make you bloody mind up! ALL of thr content is disputed-where does it say this is the most controversial UK Buddhist organisation-where is the stuff about Sexual misconduct (remember, Neil Elliott, Steve Wass-the tantric sex gurus), demonstrations, cult allegations? The hundreds of cult 'survivors'? None there-Its not what is IN the article that is contentious, its what is NOT in there that means that the article is not neutral. Now COME ON, Bring in external moderators. OR ARE YOU WORRIED that your bullying is fianlly coming to light? I dont give a toss about 'conspiracies' to get me (Im obviously paranoid)You people ARE the monsters under the bed, You lie to your back teeth about your not battling with the Dalai, you edit out anything criticsl, you hide facts from the public Bring it on bullies!!!!!!!!!YontengYonteng (talk) 17:32, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
- No point arguing with you, you are way too much on a self-righteous mission here. For responses to all the allegations you make in the paragraph above, please consult http://www.newkadampatruth.org and also its associated blog http://www.newkadampatruth.wordpress.com. (Truthbody (talk) 17:38, 9 May 2009 (UTC))
I dont read propaganda-you said you were bringin in mods-what happened???Afraid of external scrutiny???Yonteng (talk) 17:54, 9 May 2009 (UTC) Hey Truthbody, thanks for making me laugh so much...'Some are to do with people I know personally or who are related to me (Virginia Woolf, Sienna Miller, Vanessa Redgrave, one or two others'* worldly dharmas or what? But most of all........'generally, I steer away from too many politics.' Are you joking? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yonteng (talk • contribs) 18:13, 9 May 2009 (UTC) Who are the 'one or two others'?God? Elvis? I havent laughed soo much in ages And they let you teach?Haaaaaaaaaa!Seriously, stick to the name dropping, you could make money. try the Edinburgh fringe!!!!!!!!!;) (Just having fun-lets stay serious and bicker)Yonteng (talk) 18:24, 9 May 2009 (UTC) Well you edited that off your page quickly! Did you do that for the sake of your reputation too KK? Who else was it? The big bad wolf? Sienna Pods, Undressa Dedgrave? Seriously dude-you got issues! Anyway, Im only joking!Pretty embarassing case of name dropping though donchafink? But come on, when are the big bad moderators coming to read through all this stuff?What will you do, try and get me blocked for making jokes??? Maybe thats a good line to tryBECAUSE IF THEY SEE HOW YOUVE BEEN MANIPULATING WIKI FOR POLITICAL GAIN IN THE NAME OF THE NKT FOR YEARS-YOU OUTTA HERE!!!I wish you well. Now then, I will leave the page alone if you leave the banners. As I say, its not whats on there that makes it non NPOV, its what is NOT on there. So you either democratically let people know there is another side or this carries on-not a threat; any legit editor will back me up, Im sure.Go well YontengYonteng (talk) 21:34, 9 May 2009 (UTC) Hey! What about 'I have also been editing articles related to my religious interests and areas of expertese.'(check your talk page histoire monsieur) Jeez 'expertese'? Is your 'expertese' in 'Chinise'?Glad you aint editing anything I wrete!(Sorry, I cant stop laughing) And they put you in charge??? Abandon shep (Get down)!!!!!!!!!!!!!Yonteng (talk) 21:45, 9 May 2009 (UTC) Well, I reported it for you (as did emptymountains)to various authorities and look!-no ban on me and the banners are still there (although they did notice some sockpuppetry on your gangs part-surprise!). I believe Wikpedia is a public resource and should be completely neutral. Since you repeatedly remove critical information to achieve your version of 'neutrality' and replace it with non-3rd party, self created propaganda created by your allies I will continue to replace the banners when you remove them because it is in the public interest and because supression of such information is a violation of basic human rights.Anyone wishing to investigate has plenty of evidence above. I remain your servant YontengYonteng (talk) 09:20, 10 May 2009 (UTC)VANDALISM CONTINUED BY ATISHAS COOK {{adminhelp}} {{helpme}} Please see the above section —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yonteng (talk • contribs) 12:43, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
- Please do not use helpme and/or adminhelp on an article talk page. These tags are to be used on your own talk page, to ask specific questions, to get help with Wikipedia.
- In the case of a dispute, you need to follow the policies explained in WP:DISPUTE. If you are really having problems, you could put a notice on the Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents - see the information there which explains the purpose of that noticeboard.
- If you have a specific question, and need advice, please put a helpme in a new section at the end of the talk page, followed by your question.
The reasons for the banners are explained by a former editor at http://westernshugdensociety.wordpress.com/2009/04/15/wikipedia-dorje-shugdens-enlightened-lineage-or-how-to-make-history/#comment-988 ALL ADMINSTRATORS PLEASE NOTE There are multiple issues, many of which are discussed in the section above. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yonteng (talk • contribs) 19:03, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
- Dear Yonteng, that blog appears to only discuss the Dorje Shugden article(s). It does not mention the New Kadampa Tradition article. Therefore, I don't see anything "actionable" per WP:NPOV dispute: "Drive-by tagging is strongly discouraged. The editor who adds the tag must address the issues on the talk page, pointing to specific issues that are actionable within the content policies." Emptymountains (talk) 19:18, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
These banners are here because of selcetive editing.For more than one year now Wikipedia:Reliable Sources, like Dreyfus, Kay, von Brück, Mumford or Nebesky-Wojkowitz, as well as other qualified scholarly papers on the history of Shugden worship (and / or the Shugden Controversy / New Kadampa Tradition) have been repeatedly deleted or misrepresented on Wikipedia – in almost all cases by a group of engaged NKT editors – or these qualified sources have been blocked by them as being “heavily biased”; and for a long time NKT blogs and anonymous websites made by Shugdenpas replaced Wikipedia:Reliable Sources. Now the academic sources are just not mentioned any more or they are presented only marginal, and in a way that it does not interfere with the World-view of NKT. See http://westernshugdensociety.wordpress.com/2009/04/15/wikipedia-dorje-shugdens-enlightened-lineage-or-how-to-make-history/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yonteng (talk • contribs) 07:23, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- Hi Yonteng, the sources you quote - Dreyfus, von Brück, Mumford or Nebesky-Wojkowitz have no relevance to the New Kadampa Tradition. Kay is only one author and his view is considerably biased. If you have specific changes to the article, please feel free to suggest them on this page. --Truthsayer62 (talk) 15:02, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
The removal of third party sources and the replacement of them by sources which are created by partisans is clearly inappropriate and compromises the neutrality of all three articles mentioned, including this one. Please call in adminstrators if you disagree and cease removing the banners until the dicpute is resolved.07:28, 12 May 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yonteng (talk • contribs) ALL WIKI ADMINS/EDITORS PLEASE NOTE-The reason for the placement of banners is discussed at length in the section above, as well as n the link. Please read before further action. The infraction on my part has been disciplined via a 24 hour block by Conolley. PLEASE READ THE ABOVE BEFORE ACTING —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yonteng (talk • contribs) 07:56, 12 May 2009 (UTC) Furthermore, there are mutiple controversial issues. many of them outlined on the NKTs own page at http://www.newkadampatruth.org/ Yet none of the highly controversial issues aluded to on that pagge are spoken of in any detail here. It is as if theire is no controversy surrounding the group whereas the reality is that this is probably the most controversial Buddhist group in the world at present (Google NKT and scandal or controversy or cult).Many critical sources have simply been edited out and the page reads more like an advert for the NKT. That is why these banners must stay, namely becuase the aricle is clearly not neutral in toneYonteng (talk) 08:06, 12 May 2009 (UTC) Here is a list of the public criticisms of the NKT from the NKTs own site listed above-few, if any are mentioned on wiki. That is why the neutralit banners etc are relevant
* Smear: NKT is a cult * Smear: NKT is sectarian * Smear: NKT worships a spirit * Smear: NKT has split away from the Dalai Lama * Smear: NKT practitioners are not real Gelugpas * Smear: NKT has broken away from the main Tibetan Buddhist traditions, including the Gelugpa * Smear: NKT is not accepted by many other Buddhist groups * Smear: NKT is a degeneration of Buddhism * Smear: NKT is exclusive and not inclusive * Smear: NKT is fundamentalist * Smear: NKT is opposed to Rime * Smear: NKT says that it is the only tradition of pure Dharma * Smear: NKT is wrong to demonstrate against the Dalai Lama * Smear: NKT received bad press from many major publications in the 1990s * Smear: NKT wishes to harm and destroy the Dalai Lama * Smear: NKT has no pictures of the Dalai Lama in their Centers * Smear: NKT asks its students to reject the Dalai Lama (and other traditions) * Smear: Dorje Shugden is the main practice of the NKT * Smear: NKT is an offshoot of the FPMT * Smear: NKT is isolated from the wider Tibetan Buddhist community * Smear: NKT voluntarily maintains a distance from other Buddhist traditions * Smear: NKT thinks that all other Buddhist traditions want to harm them
Yonteng (talk) 08:11, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- Dear Yongten, so you have three banners: NPOV, check citations, and cleanup. In regards to the citations, are you going through and checking them, or are you hoping someone else will do the hard work? Can you at least provide an example or two where a source is being misquoted? At least then, somebody could act on your tag. Please note that per WP:SELFPUB it is okay to quote official NKT websites and publications on this article, since this is what the article is about. All other sources are third-party reliable sources such as Bluck, Cozort, Kay, Waterhouse, etc. Are you questioning their credibility? If so, tag their individual citaitons with {{Verify}}.
- In regards to general cleanup, you could at least go an explain on Wikipedia:Cleanup what the problems are. Is it spelling issues? Poor grammar? Do you think this article is written in a poor writing style? Is the article too long? Again, you can't just tag an article and hope it sticks (no drive-by tagging).
- In regards to NPOV, if there is a source you would like to re-add, please do so. For example, the only contribution you have made to this article so far is the Lopez quote, which is still there. Please note that, per WP:EL, it is not okay to link to the Survivors group since that site requires registration; and, it is not okay to link to Tenzin Peljor's website since that site mirrors Wikipedia content; and, it is not okay to link to his blog, since linking to blogs is also not acceptable.
- I look forward to working with you. Emptymountains (talk) 11:54, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- The Lopez quote was removed by Atisha's Cook without explanation. I replaced it. The other issues are all discussed ad nauseum throughout these talk pages. Others have already done the hard work you refer to.I am simply suggesting that the banners remain. Cant you even accept that the NKT is controversial and that yourselves, all members of the NKT MJ are therefore perhaps a little biased in your portrayal of the organisation/ Surely you can see that that could be possible?Perhaps we could link to previous wiki pages that the other 'side' claim were relaible and less biased. That would present the two views, not just one.Otherwise, this looks like democracy and your editing style are incompatible and I am sure you would not want people to think thatYonteng (talk) 15:13, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- You are "simply suggesting that the banners remain," doing what exactly? The banners should be a first step in imporoving the article, but that's as far as you take it. I do not let my bias affect my editing on Wikipedia; I rely solely on third-party reliable sources (and SPS when allowed, as explained above). Linkng to previous (or current) Wikipedia pages is not a valid citation practice; you cannot use other Wikipedia articles as sources. Why don't you contribute to the article the same way you did with the Lopez quote? I won't simply delete it without explanation. Emptymountains (talk) 15:20, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- Yonteng: sorry, but so far you have NOT responded to all the requests from myself and others to cite *instances of content in the article* that you feel justifies these tags. you've made various accusations, but you've not shown willingness to contribute to the discussion here otherwise. until you can provide reasonable grounds for these tags, then i will continue to remove the tags, as will others, probably, judging by what's been happening. and no - this DOES NOT mean that we're all in cahoots, it just means that there are several editors dissatisfied with your unreasonable and unjustified tagging! Atisha's cook (talk) 18:05, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- also, sorry again, but it really seems like you're on a mission, and that just isn't the right way to approach WP. i'd really suggest calming down somewhat before contributing further. Atisha's cook (talk) 18:14, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
You are using all the appropriate language to hide your own campaign tactics-The issues outling why this page needs banners are above and indeed have been discussed at length on these pages.Yonteng (talk) 18:46, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- talk Yonteng, your blocking is a result of "edit warring" and "incivility". If you want to tag this article, please understand that you will then need to give actual reasons for all three tags you have placed on it. To reiterate what other editors have said above in trying to work with you: (1) In regards to the citations, are you going through and checking them, or are you hoping someone else will do the hard work? Can you at least provide an example or two where a source is being misquoted? (2) In regards to general cleanup, you could at least go an explain on Wikipedia:Cleanup what the problems are. Is it spelling issues? Poor grammar? etc (3) In regards to NPOV, if there is a source you would like to re-add, please do so. For example, the only contribution you have made to this article so far is the Lopez quote, which is still there. etc. If you can make reasoned talk points and edits in these three areas, I think you'll find other editors are prepared to work with you. I find Wikipedia has an effective way of keeping things reasonable if you are patient enough to follow its rules.
- One of the best Wiki articles is the one on Barack Obama, which is watched over by experienced editors. The majority of accusations made on his Anti Smears website during the presidential campaign do not find their way onto Barack Obama's Wikipedia article because they are unsubstantiated. Likewise, quoting smears from the New Kadampa Truth website to claim that the NKT is controversial is not sufficient since the majority of allegations are unsubstantiated also, hence the "anti-smear" website. This New Kadampa Tradition article is far more professional than e.g. the one on the FPMT and has been held, it seems, to more stringent standards, and certainly has more third-party sources; so the result is actually pretty good.(Truthbody (talk) 19:53, 12 May 2009 (UTC))
Anticipating the imminent return of Yonteng's edit warring, I thought I'd take a look at the things this user says are missing from the article:
* Smear: NKT is a cult * Smear:NKT is sectarian* Smear:NKT worships a spirit* Smear:NKT has split away from the Dalai Lama* Smear:NKT practitioners are not real Gelugpas* Smear:NKT has broken away from the main Tibetan Buddhist traditions, including the Gelugpa* Smear:NKT is not accepted by many other Buddhist groups* Smear:NKT is a degeneration of Buddhism* Smear:NKT is exclusive and not inclusive* Smear:NKT is fundamentalist* Smear:NKT is opposed to Rime* Smear:NKT says that it is the only tradition of pure Dharma* Smear:NKT is wrong to demonstrate against the Dalai Lama* Smear:NKT received bad press from many major publications in the 1990s* Smear:NKT wishes to harm and destroy the Dalai Lama* Smear:NKT has no pictures of the Dalai Lama in their Centers* Smear:NKT asks its students to reject the Dalai Lama (and other traditions)* Smear:Dorje Shugden is the main practice of the NKT* Smear:NKT is an offshoot of the FPMT* Smear:NKT is isolated from the wider Tibetan Buddhist community* Smear:NKT voluntarily maintains a distance from other Buddhist traditions* Smear:NKT thinks that all other Buddhist traditions want to harm them
As you can see, I have struck through each item that is already addressed in the article (albeit some not as explicitly as others, such as Rime), although of course more detail on some of them is to be found in the DS and GKG articles.
The only item that remains is whether the NKT is a cult. It should be noted, however, that neither Kay, Bluck, Waterhouse, nor Lopez describe the NKT as a "cult," except in reference to "the cult of Dorje Shugden," which is being used in an anthropological sense, without the negative connotation. Emptymountains (talk) 12:06, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
reasons for edit warring over this article
[I've hacked out a large section duplicating User_talk:Yonteng#New_Kadampa_Tradition_banners; see there if interested William M. Connolley (talk) 20:29, 14 May 2009 (UTC)]
- Hmm, i'm not sure if u are really doing the community a service by removing Yontengs statement here. I found it very enlightening with respect to the edit conflicts here. Especially regarding the conflicts of interest of some of the main editors (apparently being NKT member themselves)of the pages on NKT, Dorje Shugden, Dorje Shugden Controversy and Geshe Kelsang Gyatso.
- Although i will have to take a closer look at the current state of these pages, my first impression is that they still hide or at least do not state clearly or prominently enough the multiple controversies surrounding the NKT. My experience in asking people in the western european (mainly Tibetan) Buddhist community about the NKT is: either they don't know them, or they roll their eyes and say something that could best be summarized by something like: "better stay away from them". Of course the rolling eyes of some western Buddhist practitioners might not exactly constitute a WP:RS but i think the reader of a WP article should get a fair chance to know what reputation (if justified or not) this organization has and what the controversies are that this reputation originates from. Andi 3ö (talk) 22:06, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
- Just to add some personal words regarding at least one of the controversies: I myself am a Gelug practitioner as well and am deeply saddened by the whole Dorje Shugden controversy. When i first heard H.H. the Dalai Lama say before a teaching i attended, that Dorje Shugden practitioners could not enter a teacher-pupil-relationship with him and therefore better leave i was confused (as i never heard of that protector before) and shocked that these kind of things happen in the Tibetan Buddhist community. All the more i was confused, when i found out that the author of one of the most precious teachings i know: "Liberation in the Palm of Your Hand", Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche, had also promoted the practice of Dorje Shugden. I am pretty much torn on this subject and although i still do not fully understand the reasons H.H. took this decision, and in turn why Geshe Kelsang took his decision of not following H.H. advice (with all the consequences ensueing) i certainly at times wish one of them had taken a different decision. For me as a "mainstream" Gelug practitioner the situation of course must be a lot easier than for those of you following Geshe Kelsang. Just be assured: you have my greatest compassion! Neverthesless I think playing with open cards is always the best way to cope with past or ongoing controversies, which there have apparently been quite a few in the young (pre-)history of your organization...
- ...i will look into the articles hopefully in the next days and see if i can help...
- Andi 3ö (talk) 22:56, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
- Dear Andi, thanks! If you need help verifying any of the sources to make sure nothing is being misquoted, I have all of them and can send you the quotes in context. Emptymountains (talk) 23:26, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
- YT's statement was far too long and is at least the third duplicate of it. You, in turn, would do this dispute a service by summarising its important points succinctly (if your comment above hasn't laready done so) William M. Connolley (talk) 07:20, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
[Comment removed on grounds of WP:NPA. User warned William M. Connolley (talk) 07:20, 15 May 2009 (UTC)] Atisha's cook (talk) 23:32, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
- The banners are there for COI reasons explained on my user talk page-there is also a post there asking you to be a little more civil and not to insult me. best wishesYonteng (talk) 07:11, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
- Please add a section to this talk page in which you *succinctly* explain the reason for adding the banner, addressing only the issues that are wrong with the page rather than the abilities of the editors concerned William M. Connolley (talk) 07:20, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
As explained above, all four dominant editors of this and other pages related to the New kadampa tradition (Dorje Shugden,Dorje Shugden Controversy) are members of that organisation. WP guidelines state that such a situation has the potential to lead to a lack of NPOV.
Independent editor Andi 3ö has pointed out above, on the basis of the named editors memebrship that there certainly appear to be instances of a lack of NPOV. In his words:
'I have been watching the controversies around the NKT and the evolution of the articles on WP for quite some time. In fact, the only reason i ever got to know the NKT, and i assume also the reason most of the people will ever look at their wiki page, IS the host of controversies surrounding them. They are widely considered sort of the black sheep of the (Tibetan) Buddhist community (if justified or not is a different issue). If you look at the NKT page it is evident that the controversies are either not present at all or buried back in the article or in some subordinate clause.'
On top of this, User Kt66, a knowledgeable contributor to this page has resigned from editing In his words, the reason for this is:
'For more than one year now Wikipedia:Reliable Sources, like Dreyfus, Kay, von Brück, Mumford or Nebesky-Wojkowitz, as well as other qualified scholarly papers on the history of Shugden worship (and the Shugden Controversy / New Kadampa Tradition) have been repeatedly deleted or misrepresented on Wikipedia – in almost all cases by a group of engaged NKT editors – or these qualified sources have been blocked by them as being “heavily biased”; and for a long time NKT blogs and anonymous websites made by Shugdenpas replaced Wikipedia:Reliable Sources. Now the academic sources are just not mentioned any more or they are presented only marginally, and in a way that it does not interfere with the World-view of NKT.'
Administrator Chzzz also appears to feel that this issue merits attention (see my talk page). Despite initially blocking/refusing to unblock myself, two further administrators WM Connolley and Ricky 8162 are now suggesting arbitration procedures, demonstratig a recognition that there is an issue here that needs to be resolved.
There are therefore IMO clear issues of CoI/NPoV. This is why I have placed the Neutrality banner on the NKT page and why i have asked adminstrators to consider whether this CoI merits the NKT editors be warned/blocked. Best wishesYonteng (talk) 08:49, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
- 1)To be fair: calling me an "independent" editor may, at least from an NKT perspective, not be completely justified. As i am a (western Tibetan Gelug) Buddhist and not a member of the NKT, one could argue that i am part of "the other side". But, on the grounds of this thinking, i'd say it would not be very likely to ever find an editor of the NKT-related pages, who can safely be considered 100% free of suspicion of WP:COI as everyone who is interested sufficiently in the organization and/or it's teacher Geshe Kelsang Gyatso or it's protector deity Dorje Shugden and the associated Dorje Shugden Controversy will 1) be somewhat of a Tibetan Buddhist (at least have read some books or heard some teachings) and 2)either be associated with the NKT or not. The question then would be if the majority of Tibetan Buddhists who are not associated with the NKT, who e.g. follow the advice of the Dalai Lama not to worship Dorje Shugden and from which the NKT has explicitely distanced themselves can be considered neutral or not. I think: no, not competely neutral, but certainly the danger of a direct conflict of interest is much higher with NKT members as they are the minority, (somewhat naturally) feeling cornered by the views of the majority which they have to defend against. The majority on the other hand will not have such strong feelings about the controversies as for them it is not that important, what this small faction thinks and how it is presented on WP.
- 2)Nevertheless i think simply focusing on WP:COI and banning all the NKT contributors can certainly not be the solution. We certainly have to take their COIs into account when looking at their edits but still WP:assume good faith. Therefore, instead of only attacking the editors i urge you, Yonteng, to bring up (or restate/summarize here)some content-wise claims. What do you think, specifically will have to change on this page in order to be WP:NPOV? (i personally have some ideas but will have to read a bit more in order to compile a comprehensive list).
- Andi 3ö (talk) 09:58, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
- Yonteng, a starting point would be the list you have posted above: a list of accusations the NKT themselves feel thay have to defend against. Which of the accusations do you think is substantiated enough or raised by a sufficient number of people (to constitute a noteworthy controversy) that it should be included in the article and is currently not/or not sufficiently so? What about the controversies section kt66 posted above? Is it accurately sourced? Would you want to put that (back?) in for example? Any other specific changes you suggest?
- Andi 3ö (talk) 10:29, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
- Ouch! well, you certainly seem more neutral than 'the other side' at least.However, I am sure all parties would want a balanced article, in the interests of truth. To go into each individual reference is a little difficult right now as my life gets in the way (!) but i would strongly recommend comparing the existing page to http://info-buddhism.com/#nkt which was what Kt66 claims deonstrates both sides. By comparing the two articles it should be pretty obvious which neutral 3rd party sources have been edited out and what might well need replacing.Personally, I think the editors concerned need a stern warning (you will see why when you compare the two pages) and the NPOV/COI banners should remain as long as there is a dispute.Yonteng (talk) 10:34, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
- Is that website GFDL-compliant? Back in December, User:Kt66 created a "Pre-history of the NKT" article, but it was shown that it was like 90% duplicate verbatim content from already established articles like NKT, GKG, and Manjushri Institute, and so the new page was deleted. For example, I note that the Historical background of the formation of NKT section appearing at the top of that webpage now makes up the content of the Manjushri Institute article. I mention this because at first it may seem like the material is simply "gone."
- What I learned from User:Kt66 was the importance of citing (only) third-party reliable sources. However, when I got ahold of his sources to verify what they said (e.g., Kay, Waterhouse, Bluck, Cozort), I noticed that he always picked the worst that they had to say about the subject. Kt66 may have claimed to be NPOV simply by citing 3PS's, but it is not NPOV to selectively quote as he does. Emptymountains (talk) 13:37, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
I think if you take a look at the DS page you will see this is exaclty what happened with the Mumford reference in the Nyingma section
You colleagues quoted from Mumford:
There were also Nyingma practitioners of Dorje Shugden. Mumford writes based on his anthropoligical studies in Nepal in the late 1970's: "In Gyasumdo the lamas are Nyingmapa, yet most of them honor Shugs-ldan as a lineage guardian picked up in Tibet in the past by their patriline."
After I checked the quote I found out that Mumford states:
”Tibetans in Kathmandu regard Shugden as a guardian honored by those who adhere to the Gelug sect, while members of the Nyingma sect think of Shugden as their enemy, sent against them by the rival sect. But in the villages these sectarian differences are not well understood. In Gyasumdo the lamas are Nyingmapa, yet most of them honor Shugs-ldan as a lineage guardian picked up in Tibet in the past by their patriline.”
The first quote makes no allusion to the enmity between DS and Nyingmas-it makes it look like the relationship was hunky dory. So your colleagues are responsible for exactly the thing you accuse Kt66 of! Moreover, if you check Kt66s talk page you will see that a neutral observer awarded him a wiki barnstar for his edits. So while you condemn him for bias and selective quotation, independents can see that a) your colleagues are equally biased and b) Kt66 has been awarded for his edits. As a matter of interest, have you or your colleagues got any awards for neutrality/edit quality on your pages?Ive looked but so far i can only find blocks and allegations of sock puppetry???Perhaps i am missing something? Feel free to correct me. Looking forward to a succesful resolution of the problems, with kind regards YontenYonteng (talk) 14:35, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
(I just posted this on emptymountains talk page... [So don't post it here too. Duplication is evil. Say things once, in one place. Cut William M. Connolley (talk) 21:29, 15 May 2009 (UTC)] Yonteng (talk) 20:44, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
- this COI accusation is baseless. i've stated that i'm an NKT practitioner, but that doesn't mean i necessarily have a COI. for example, should no Christian edit articles on Christianity? should no Republican edit articles on the Republican Party? clearly, that would be absurd.
- now, if i were using WP to *promote* my party/religion/POV then this accusation would be justified. but i have not done this at any time. just because i am a Buddhist practitioner does not automatically make me a fanboy and nor does it render me incapable of critical thought about my lineage or tradition. this article *does not* read like promotional material. it's actually not a bad article in terms of clarity and factual accuracy. just because it doesn't include information supporting someone's POV does not make it inaccurate!
- now, an editor like Yonteng who's stated repeatedly that he believes NKT to have some kind of anti-Dalai Lama agenda, and that many of the other editors on this article are sock-puppets or are acting as a propaganda "team", may well be more likely to have a COI here. this view is similar to one of the "valued contributers" Yonteng mentioned: Kt66. by hs own admission, Kt66 was a disgruntled ex-NKT monk *with a stated intention to "warn the world" about NKT*; he said this. he was the author of several blogs that were highly critical of his former tradition - which he then used as sources (info-buddhism.com is a notable example). but when Kt66's WP contributions were checked (at his request) by neutral editors, a majority of them commented on the strong bias and over-reliance on one, somewhat discredited, academic's PHD thesis as source (Kay). that he had been previously challenged by other editors is hardly surprising. i was one of them, and i have to confess to losing patience with him, too. that was my bad. but challenging such partisan editing is NOT cyber-bullying, nor is it evidence of some kind of dedicated NKT "team" of propagandists. that Yonteng's unjustified inclusion of various banners has been reoeatedly challenged is likewise not bullying!
- at last, after many, many requests (from polite through to not so much...) to provide justification, he has finally done so. i disagree with these reasons, as i've stated above. in addition, i would say that to characterise NKT as inherently controversial is just incorrect. controversy does not define NKT, any more than it defines any other religious group. ALL groups have controversies, and their share of detractors. NKT's detractors can be somewhat vocal like Kt66 and Yonteng - largely because of the perceived opposition to the Dalai Lama's policy on Dorje Shugden - but that doesn't mean their POVs are justified.
- Yonteng - this is what Talk is for, as i understand it - to discuss and debate the merits of edits. to do so, other editors need to know your reasons. if you back-up your edits with RS and justify and discuss their inclusion then i think you'll find that other editors, NKT or otherwise, will be happy to work with you. Atisha's cook (talk) 22:36, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
- Should scientologists be allowed to write the wp scientology article?. The COI allegations and sock puupetry allegations are from multiple users, not me-check the refs above.Your ref to Kay as 'somewhat discredited' is personal opinion=it is only 'discredited' according to Nkt Source-it is a 3rd party academic source considered by many to be the best work so far on the \nkt. The NKT is not 'inherently' controversial, nothing is 'inherently' anything However, talk to most and as Andi says above, when NKT is mentioned, they roll their eyes and groan. The reason for all this is just that-your complete refusla to accept that there is anything controversial about what amounts to the UKs most controversial group. This is obviously NPOV due to your COI. The article is competely lacking in critical info. what is there isburied away-these are the words of others above, not mine=sleep well94.192.139.167 (talk) 23:05, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
- NKT is not the same as Scientology. It says much about your own view that you chose that example rather than another Buddhist tradition. For this reason, I don't believe that those who have a strong negative view of the NKT should be allowed to write the article either, as was the case when kt66 dominated it and would not allow anything positive to be included.
- I don't accept the COI that Yonteng sees. Surely Wikipedia articles are written by those who have knowledge of the subject? Who is more qualified to write an article about the NKT than someone in the tradition who is practising it? It's therefore not so surprising that many of the editors are NKT practitioners. I can say that the article as it stands is accurate, factual and already includes controversies. For example, I don't agree with the view of Professor Peter Clarke that NKT is a Tibetan NRM but it's included in the article. I believe that Yonteng could have a possible conflict of interest too, because, otherwise, why would he be pursuing his own view so vigorously? This reveals a big emotional investment and hardly a neutral point of view.
- I personally don't want to see a return to an article dominated by quotations from Kay who is only one author and only one point of view, and whose view is outdated. Kay's thesis was written a long time ago. Organizations are not static and the NKT today is a different tradition to the one he wrote about. This is one reason why third party academic references are unreliable when talking about a dynamic tradition. They are okay to portray history if they are accurate, but not suitable to portray an organic, changing organization. --Truthsayer62 (talk) 07:47, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
- does anyone other than Yonteng see a COI here? if so, please explain - we can discuss. if not, then the COI banner is invalid and should go.
- I think we all need to WP:assume good faith and stop trying to silence each other by simply stating that those who disagree with us have WP:COI. This feels like playground politics. We need to stay with the facts in the article itself, and simply stick to the five pillars of Wiki, and we can work together on this article. (Truthbody (talk) 01:26, 16 May 2009 (UTC))
- does anyone else dispute content in this article? if so, please say what - we can discuss. if not, the POV banner is invalid and should go. Atisha's cook (talk) 23:19, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
- Just briefly, for a start: what about the information given above under controversies/criticism of the NKT (apparently from an older version of the article) What's wrong with that info, why isn't it in the article? If true, and as far as i can see it is well sourced, i think much of that info is quite noteworthy. e.g. that Geshe Kelsang was expelled from his home monastery or that the nkt was rejected by some national Buddhist unions... please explain why you think this does not belong in the article. Andi 3ö (talk) 02:48, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
- There is a separate article for Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. Emptymountains (talk) 08:46, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
The reasons for these nbanners are discussed. Independent Admins are now observing this page. Your reasoning is simply a refusal to accept the banners It is not a reasoned argument at all. I have reverted the ganners and will request admins AGAIN if you continue edit warring, particularly when the issue is already being addressed independentlyYonteng (talk) 07:05, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
- i disagree. i don't think they have been discussed. you've provided your POV, that editors here have a COI and that the article is biased, but, with respect, that is simply your own opinion. you've cited a few other previous editors who've shared your view, but once again, certinly wrt Kt66, this doesn't justify the banners. i'll remove the banners now. please understand - there's no conspiracy: this is not some kind of tag-team reverting! i'm acting on my own understanding of the meaning of these banners and their relevance (or lack of it) to this article.
- i will ask once again, though, for others to contribute here: is there nyone who shares Yonteng's view that these banners, if included, would be justified, and if so, why? if there are valid reasons, please let's discuss them *before* adding the banners. thanks.
- incidentally, i don't think it's at all helpful for our reasoned discussion for you to equate the New Kadampa Tradition with Scientology. that's unjustified and inflammatory. Atisha's cook (talk) 13:09, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
- ahem... you know...i actually still am not too sure about whether these banners are helpful or not, but seeing you taking turns in removing them again and again and also skipping through the history of this article and seeing similar situations before surely does not contribute to convincing me that there is no COI here. Anyway the COI banner imho sohould be a last resort and i don't like it very much because it presents kind of an ad hominem attack.
- The POV banner on the other hand seems to be fully justifiable here. The neutrality of this article surely IS DISPUTED like the banner says, no doubt about that.
- Why don't you answer the points i raised above about the criticism section? I think most of the points there should be included. Please tell me why not. Simply stating that there is an article about Geshe Kelsang Gyatso dos not suffice, not even for the one point it may apply too, that of him, the founder of the NKT, being expelled from his own monastery. I think that fact is noteworthy here and frankly it will be hard to convince me that it is not.
- Same goes for the founding history of the NKT. It has apparently been moved to the Manjushri Institute page without leaving any reference here to the apparently tumultuous times the NKT emerged from after gaining control over the center from the FPMT (another (the first?) western Tibetan Buddhist organisation). Apparently any reference to that struggle and subsequent separation from the FPMT has been removed form here, going so far as to omitting the fact that Geshe Kelsang came to England on request of Lama Yeshe (founder of the FPMT) in the first place. I know it is not untrue what the article states now, that he came on the request of Trijang Rinpoche, but the whole story seems to be that Trijang Rinpoche (his main teacher) only asked him after he himself had been requested by Lama Yeshe to do so (and apparently after having been recommended to Lama Yeshe by the Dalai Lama). This alone of course is not a serious violation of WP:NPOV, but it surely hints at how some editors seem to go out of their way to keep this page free of the controversial issues.
- The not very prominent placement of the Dorje Shugden controversy is another one. Also the way it is introduced is pretty telling: "Also, one of the NKT-IKBU's religious practices is of the Dharma Protector Dorje Shugden, but this also is nothing new." In addition, there doesn't even seem to be a link to the Dorje Shugden Controversy at all.
- hmm...unless these points (and maybe some others i haven't yet discovered) are quickly fixed i have to admit i feel strongly inclined to put up the POV banner up myself again.
- To the NKT affiliated editors i will say that i do not think there is any virtue in hiding the controversies apparently surrounding your organization. Why don't you stand by those issues? Obviously you do not feel that they are a reason not to get engaged with the NKT, or do you? You love your teacher, you love the Dharma, you love Dorje Shugden and you love the way your organization contributes to spreading the Dharma and ultimately working for the good of all sentient beings, right? I personally appreciate that very much as well! Openly discussing the controversial issues surely is a better way of building trust (not only) within the Buddhist community, don't you think? Andi 3ö (talk) 18:06, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
- wrt the reverts, all i can tell you is that i am - honestly - not taking it turns with any other editor to do this, i'm simply reverting an edit that i feel is unjustified. understanding that this is just degenerating into edit-warring i've asked for some reasoned discussion on it - so thanks for adding your opinion.
- imo, the point is one of emphasis. there's one viewpoint that this article should prominently feature these "contoversies"; i would say that this seems to be held mostly by those editors (one editor?) who believe that NKT is inherently bad news because it differs from the Dalai Lama and many of its members have joined WSS protests vocally opposing the Dalai Lama's ban on Dorje Shugden. on the other hand, there's a view (that i subscribe to) that says that giving such prominence to these issues would be wholly disproportionate: the NKT is not defined by controversy, it's not what the organisation is about. for some (and let's face it, this is a very small minority of society) these "controversies" seem to have taken on a vastly inappropriate significance. this includes a few NKT people, and a few ardently anti-NKT people. but to say, on this basis, that the article is disputed isn't really valid.
- to dedicate an unduly prominent section of this Wiki to these things, or to say that the content is disputed, would be to give an inaccurate view of the subject to Joe or Josephine Public. it would be, imho, akin to devoting a large and prominent section of a Wiki about the Roman Catholic Church to the opinions of certain Christian Fundamentalist activists. certainly, some controversy exists in the RCC, and some might warrant a mention - but that is not the main meaning, function or import of that Church.
- that's my view. what do you think? Atisha's cook (talk) 18:38, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
- hmm. i just reread my post above - i didn't mean to imply that anyone whose view differs from NKT's is some kind of crazy fundamentalist - sorry if it reads like that (or maybe i'm just hyper-sensitive now!). anyway - a better analogy might be allowing anti-Christian writers to contribute a lengthy and prominent Controversies section to the wiki on Christianity. it would be inappropriate. Atisha's cook (talk) 18:54, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
- 'I don't believe that those who have a strong negative view of the NKT should be allowed to write the article either, as was the case when kt66 dominated it and would not allow anything positive to be included.'
Now re-read that as:
- I don't believe that those who have a strong posittive view of the NKT should be allowed to write the article either, as was the case when Truthbody/Emptymountains/Atisha's Cook Truthsayer 62 dominated it and would not allow anything negative to be included.'
Does that sound reasonable to you? If not, you may have a CoI and hold a non-NPOV.
- 'Who is more qualified to write an article about the NKT than someone in the tradition who is practising it?' This is the classic mistake of a non-academic; the belief that you can see things objectively from an insider perspective. In fact, your membership means you are propbalby less qulified to write on the NKT since you cannot see the imperfections that objective academics can. its a kind of blinded by faith scenario.
- 'Organizations are not static and the NKT today is a different tradition to the one he wrote about.'
This is a philosophical sophism-It denies that there is any entity called the NKT. The NKT does exist; it may be ever changing, and selfless but a dependent entity still exists and some label that entity as a cult/NRM with numerous controversial attributes, attribute which BTW are not mentioned in the article. I am going to place the banners back as I believe there has been lots of discussion of the CoI/NPOV issue above and you have not explained any valid resons why they should not be there, except for a lot of denials and ad homs-sorry! I am also going to ask admins to step in to resolve this issue. Could you please do the same???Yonteng (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:49, 16 May 2009 (UTC).
- who are you talking to? those aren't my words.
- wrt the banners - soory: the onus is on you to reason why they *should* be there! i don't need to give reasons why there shouldn't be a section on Dolly Parton, for example. :-) Atisha's cook (talk) 19:00, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
- Yonteng - you have yet to make a single, positive contribution to this article. All you are doing is placing banners without making constructive suggestions for changing the article. I don't accept that there is a COI, so I've removed that part of the banner, but I accept that you think the article is NPOV (I disagree). If you think it's NPOV, please make suggestions rather than edit warring. Thank you --Truthsayer62 (talk) 21:08, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
- well i still disagree with this! so far, afaics, only Yonteng's disputing, and then not with much in the way of valid argument. Andi 3ö's offered some valid points on this for discussion, with which i've mostly disagreed - but at least there's some chance to discuss. but for now, still no real dispute, afaics. so is there valid reason for this banner? Atisha's cook (talk) 22:00, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
- I think it's only fair to see what other editors come up with and to have a reasoned discussion about it. If there are no constructive suggestions and therefore no justification for the banner then it should be removed after a period of time to be agreed - what do you think? --Truthsayer62 (talk) 05:27, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
- i'm of the opinion that the banner needs to be discussed and agreed *before* its included in the article. i've seen nothing from Yonteng that is sufficient reason to justify it so far - i'm still awaiting a valid example of disputed content. but i'm now on parole for edit-warring with him (which is my bad...) so for now i'd better let it go and wait to see what we all conclude. Atisha's cook (talk) 06:55, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
- does anyone else want to contribute to this discussion? NPOV banner: justified or not? Atisha's cook (talk) 16:53, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
- At the moment the banner is there to prove a negative -- as yet, neither Yonteng or Andi have made constructive suggestions for improving the article and have just complained about it not having enough controversy in it. If anyone can find third-party sources to justify the inclusion of new material, go ahead, but as yet this has not happened and the banners are just there because Yonteng wants them to be. The banners should be removed until there is some proof that the article lacks neutral point of view as it stands. Vague allegations that people "roll their eyes" in the Tibetan Buddhist world when they hear about the NKT does not cut it on Wikipedia. (Truthbody (talk) 15:51, 18 May 2009 (UTC))
- I'd say there is a host of sourced material that could (not necessarily should of course) be included even if u only look as far as earlier versions of the article, e.g. [this one] Yonteng recommended earlier. Of course you are right: "eyes-rolling" certainly is not sufficient justification for this banner but i think the banner may serve it's purpose well of keeping some pressure in this debate and hopefully attracting some editor's attention to the subject (btw what about my suggestion of filing a request for comments?).
- The "eyes-rolling" of course is just a personal observation of mine and as such is not includable as it clearly violates WP:NOR ;-). Neverthesless for me it is an indication that there actually IS/ARE some controversy/ies surrounding the NKT that imho should be given some prominence in this article.
- BTW Emptymountains has already put in place some edits adressing two of my earlier points that i highly appreciate. What do you think about them? Are they ok for you? And do you think we could do something similar with the history part/conflict with FPMT which as i stated earlier i thought should be included/referenced Andi 3ö (talk) 17:52, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
- Can you remind me which of Emptymountain's edits you are referring to?
- If we add something about NKT history with the FPMT, it would also have to go in the FPMT article. The FPMT Wiki article, BTW, has never come up for any scrutiny or really good Wiki editing or sourcing. I for one have avoided interfering with other Buddhist traditions or being negative about them -- but the favor does not seem to be reciprocated judging by the number of FPMT students who have edited the NKT article over the years! The FPMT article uses a lot of WP:SPS and avoids all hint of any controversy, whereas it has done plenty of controversial things such as the discrimination against allowing other Buddhist practitioners from attending its teachings, the fact that Lama Osel is nowhere to be seen and by various accounts has disrobed, the illegal activities engaged in in the early eighties (of which I know a great deal as I was around to witness what happened during that whole period), and the letter from the senior FPMT monk Sangye Yeshe indicating that the FPMT are on a witch hunt against Shugden practitioners even though Lama Yeshe, the founder of FPMT, was a faithful Dorje Shugden practitioner until the day of his death. Plus the contradictions arising from Lama Zopa trying to have his cake and eat it over the Dorje Shugden debacle, tying himself in knots trying to maintain his faith in Trijang Rinpoche and the Dalai Lama. Over half of the FPMT lineage Gurus were Shugden practitioners, and yet two of them in particular, Trijang Rinpoche and Je Phabongkhapa, are persona non grata with the Dalai Lama, who says they were "wrong, all wrong", and has even called for the removal of their statues in various Gelugpa monasteries. Yet the Dalai Lama is now de facto supreme leader of the FPMT and sits atop all the great lineage Gurus on that page. The gradual change from the FPMT from being a Gelugpa tradition to one that mainly encourages the practice of Rime in accordance with the Dalai Lama's intentions is not mentioned either, even though it is highly significant and, according to Lama Yeshe's original intentions in founding the FPMT, controversial. And so on. Also, the arguments over the future of the FPMT and the succession of power, particularly in the absence of Lama Osel; what will happen when Lama Zopa and the Dalai Lama pass on? (Truthbody (talk) 18:42, 18 May 2009 (UTC))
- I don't think that there is any automatism here. A controversy that is somewhat significant or even defining for one of the parties involved can very well be totally insignificant for another. I am not saying that this is the case here. I don't immediately see any reason why not to add a reference to the conflict around Manjushri Institute to the FPMT article. In fact it sounds like a good idea to me. Please correct me if i am wrong here, but afaics, for the FPMT i'd say it is just that: the conflict surrounding Manjushri Institute. For the NKT on the other hand the invitation to Manjushri by the FPMT is part of the founding history, maybe the conflict subsequently ensueing even constituting a decisive contributing factor in triggering the founding? Possibly something similar could be said wrt the Dorje Shugden controversy?
- Some of the other details about the FPMT you mention may as well be interesting for the FPMT article, but i reject the notion that the two issues/articles are somehow connected. Both have to be seperately treated/discussed and both have to be accurate on their very own accord. Andi 3ö (talk) 21:11, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
- Guess what i found in the FPMT article's "history" section:
So the balancing measures you demand in case of an addition of "NKT history with the FPMT" are already in place (kind of proactively it seems ;-)) You know, i actually thought about checking the FPMT article before i replied to your comment yesterday. I didn't, because i figured i'd trust you on that. Well, sorry to say that...but i'd guess that's not exactly a plus then on my internal scorecard for evaluating the WP:COI allegations against you (and others) :(More consequentially, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and his students caused the Manjushri Institute--the FPMT's flagship center in England--to sever its FPMT ties. At issue was whether the centers and their students ought to identify primarily with Lama Yeshe, local teachers, the Gelugpa tradition, or Tibetan Buddhism as a whole. The FPMT now asks its lamas to sign a "Geshe Agreement" which make explicit the organization's expectations. (Complicating the latter dispute was controversy over Dorje Shugden; the FPMT has accepted the Dalai Lama's ban on the worship of this deity.)
- Guess what i found in the FPMT article's "history" section:
- BTW just to make sure i wasn't blaming you for accidentally overlooking what could have been a recent addition to the FPMT article: Here's the [original entry of that passage] dating back to Feb 2008. Even [the very first stub of the FPMT article] already has a reference to the conflict! (which i, as stated above, don't find nearly as relevant for the FPMT as for the NKT article) Andi 3ö (talk) 10:52, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
- Which of Emptymountains edits i mean? Well, the recent ones: adding a heading and a proper introductory sentence as well as linking to the main article on the Dorje Shugden controversy, and adding a reference and link to further info on Geshe Kelsang's expulsion from Sera Je. Andi 3ö (talk) 20:01, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
1RR sanction
Y and Ac are hereby placed on WP:1RR sanction on this page, because I am bored of your edit warring. Reverts made without explicitly including the word "revert" "undid" or "rv" or anything else will result in an extended block William M. Connolley (talk) 19:21, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
- fair enough, i guess. Atisha's cook (talk) 20:34, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
OK I believe we have definite COI here which has been discussed ad nauseum above. COI results in NPOV issues. I have therefore placed the banners on this.Yonteng (talk) 20:38, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
- i've moved the few posts following this to the section above, where they more properly belong as they concern the "reasons for edit-warring"/banners, rather than the 1RR sanction. i hope that's ok? Atisha's cook (talk) 16:53, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
Meat puppetry?
I've been sent two messages posted recently on the New Kadampa Survivors' group asking for members to get into this discussion to back up Yonten and his banners, at least one of these was posted by a Wikipedia user who has made many edits on this article over the years. Members of that group are apparently discussing strategy on how they can collectively work together to keep up the banners on wp:coi and wp:npov. This seems to be WP:meat? If so, it is not permissible according to Wikipedia guidelines, so I think all editors should watch out for it:
"Do not recruit meatpuppets. It is considered highly inappropriate to advertise Wikipedia articles to your friends, family members, or communities of people who agree with you, so that they come to Wikipedia and support your side of a debate. If you feel that a debate is ignoring your voice, then the appropriate action is to remain civil, seek comments and involvement from other Wikipedians, or pursue dispute resolution. These are well-tested processes, designed to avoid the problem of exchanging bias in one direction for bias in another."
(Truthbody (talk) 19:35, 18 May 2009 (UTC))
- Do we need to report this to the admins or should we just leave it and see if anything comes of it first? What do other editors think? (Truthbody (talk) 19:38, 18 May 2009 (UTC))
- I think those people getting involved with the article would certainly not be the most desirable thing to happen. On the other hand, the plain existence of such a group doesn't necessarily speak to the non-controversiality of the NKT. I think we should wait what comes up and WP:assume good faith: same as we do with NKT members although i assume that according to some of the "survivors" all the NKT editors are brainwashed cult members totally impossible of a WP:NPOV. Let's face it: it IS a difficult situation. According to WP:COI best thing would be for all NKT members as well as all survivors people and other parties having issues with the NKT staying away from the article. In the consequence, as i stated above, that may even include all Tibetan Buddhists (like me) as one could argue that all non-NKT Tibetan Buddhists are part of "the other side" of the Dorje Shugden controversy (although, as i also argued above, i think it is quite natural to assume that the feelings about the controversy capable of clouding the own judgement may be somewhat naturally be stronger with Dorje Shugden practitioners than with non-practitioners). So that would probably leave us with exactly 0 people editing the article which would be quite unfortunate ;-)
- I say: Let's see what comes up. Let's be compassionate and let's WP:assume good faith. Aftre all we're Buddhists, aren't we? We should know how to cope with disturbing emotions clouding the clear and knowing nature of our minds :D Andi 3ö (talk) 22:06, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
Truthbody So, somebody at the site ‘New Kadampa Survivors’ is reading this discussion and suggesting that ex NKT members contribute to the debate (leading to the possibility that someone who holds an opposing view be allowed to comment), That, IMO, is almost as bad as people registering on NKS by pretending to be ex of the NKT and then using information they gather there to influence the content on WP, wouldn’t you agree? (Unless of course we live in a universe where two wrongs make a right?...!)
And you are part of that process? This IMO raises concerns that you may be actively involved in some sort of campaign to procure info that former members are circulating about their actual experiences in the NKT.
NKS rule 2 for prospective members says’ 2. ‘No NKT members/followers/students are allowed.’ On the other hand, the official NKT smear fighting website http://newkadampatruth.org/behind-the-lies/#a4 linked to at the bottom of the WP article says: ’Although the Survivors' group has a membership of 700+ (it’s actually nearer 850 now), it is a reliable estimate that about half of these are NKT practitioners who joined up out of curiosity’. ‘Curiosity’? I’d say that any involvement in that level of internet spying might indicate a possibility that you could have a CoI. Could someone actively engaged in such activities really be capable of expressing an NPOV?
The first two alternatives that spring to mind are you received this information either because: a) You yourself are falsely registered on NKS, or b) People send you this type of info because they know you are part of the NKT propaganda campaign created to counter criticisms of the group Alternatively, it may just be gossip, but word certainly travels fast! When did these mails appear; 48 hours ago?
I see you quote WP meat puppet guidelines which state: “These are well-tested processes, designed to avoid the problem of exchanging bias in one direction for bias in another." Is this an implicit admission on your part that someone might be attempting to right a bias in favour of the NKT in the present article? What makes you think that people expressing a view other than your own would want the article to be biased AGAINST the NKT? Maybe some of them just want people to have a balanced picture, manifest as an article written by both insiders and outsiders? Or are you suggesting that the status quo is preserved and the only contributors allowed to put their point of view forward as the ‘truth’ are the NKT editors named and repeatedly featured above and in the edit history (particularly those who suddenly appeared around the same time as the WSS started its internet campaign against the Dalai Lama)? [Remember the sock puppetry scandal at that time and how Lucy James was eventually permanently blocked as a result? Sadly, all one need do to circumnavigate this sanction is set up a new account from a different IP address and carry on one’s campaign as if nothing had happened.]
You ask: ‘Do we need to report this to the admins or should we just leave it and see if anything comes of it first? What do other editors think?’ I’ll tell you what I think. First, read what they have to say and see if any of it is objective truth. I mean what if they say, ‘Well, I was in the NKT and I had a really bad time and yet when I read this article none of the bad things that happened to me are even mentioned. I think the people who are editing this might be a bit biased. MAYBE THEY HAVE A COI AND A NON NPOV’??? If that happens, should we just ignore them and report them as’ meat puppets’??? Personally ‘Truth’ body, I would let the public speak for themselves. If present NKT members are allowed to present the ‘insider’ view of the NKT via WP (and against CoI guidelines), why, in the interests of truth, shouldn’t ex-members be free to contribute the other, ‘outsider’ view of the NKT? Wouldn’t that lead to a balanced article. Isn’t that what you want? Or would it be better if anyone from NKS (thats the 400 or so genuine members who have inside experience of the NKT) who HAS been damaged by their experience not contribute and the article mentions nothing of the controversy surrounding the NKT? Would this produce a balanced and truthful piece?
Third Party Sources
Anyway, below are numerous 3rd party academic resources, almost all of which are not referred to in the article (Or should I say, they were, but were then edited out) Of course, amongst them are some the NKT claim are ‘unreliable’ and written by people who have ‘issues’ and an ‘axe to grind’ (Particularly Kay, widely recognised as the best academic appraisal of the NKT to date). However, they ARE academic and 3rd party so please feel free to place them in a section at the bottom of the page under an appropriate title. The Guardian (http://www.tibet.com/dholgyal/CTA-book/chapter-5-4.html and http://www.tibet.ca/en/newsroom/wtn/archive/old?y=1996&m=7&p=14_1 )and Independent (http://www.tibet.com/dholgyal/CTA-book/chapter-5-5.html ) articles also need to be linked to since they are 3rd party sources. Any claims that theses articles are discredited should be justified by reference to non-NKT sources in the interests of truth.
- Bluck, Robert (2006) New Kadampa Tradition in British Buddhism London: Routledge, 129-151
- Kay, David N. (1997) The New Kadampa Tradition and the Continuity of Tibetan Buddhism in Transition, Journal of Contemporary Religion 12(3) (October 1997), 277-293
- Kay, David N.(2004) Tibetan and Zen Buddhism in Britain, London: Routledge
- Chryssides, George D. (1999) Exploring New Religions, Continuum International Publishing Group, 233-243
- Cozort, Daniel (2003) Buddhism in the Modern World; Adaptations of an Ancient Tradition, Steven Heine and Charles S. Prebish (ed.), Oxford: Oxford University Press: 221-248
- Waterhouse, Helen (1997) Buddhism in Bath: Adaptation and Authority, Leeds: The Community Religions Project, University of Leeds (Reviewed by David Kay)
- Waterhouse, Helen (2001). Representing western Buddhism: a United Kingdom focus in: From Sacred Text to Internet. Religion today: tradition, modernity and change series. Ashgate Publishing Company, pp. 117–160.
- Waterhouse, Helen (2005) New Kadampa Tradition in the Encyclopaedia of New Religious Movement, P. B. Clarke ed., London: Routledge
Finally please could you replace the NPOV banners you removed since you are contradicting WP guidelines on this issue. Moreover, 72 hours ago, our colleague AC suggested the banners be debated. 72 hours is not long enough to wait before taking the somewhat draconian decision to eliminate the banners without adequate discussionYonteng (talk) 10:09, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
- Kay (1997) is essentially a first-draft version of Kay (2004). You are wasting your money if you get the 1997 version because it does not have anything substantial that was not carried over into the 2004 version.
- Bluck (2006) is cited in the article 14 times. Kay (2004) is cited 6 times; this is substantially less than Kt66's version, but only because they were moved to the relevant articles such as GKG and Manjushri Institute. Chryssides (1999) is not cited in the article, but it's not cited at all in Kt66's version either. Cozort (2003) is cited 10 times. Waterhouse (1997) was removed because page number references were never given after 18 months (see talk page); the citations could not be verified; but, I just got a hardcopy of this, and so I can go back and re-add these. There are a couple of references now to Waterhouse (2005), whereas Kt66's version had zero.
- By the way, both Waterhouse sources do discredit some of the more sensational things said in The Guardian article. Emptymountains (talk) 11:51, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
- Well that leads on to the next question which is the nature of the quotes selected. For example, Waterhise may well be present but I cant find ‘When NKT practitioners engage in the study of these texts, the activity has little in common with study as it takes place within a secular education system. For those on the formal study programmes, to study Geshe Kelsang’s books is to learn them ‘by heart’ so that the teachings are internalized and can be reproduced word for word, without further interpretation…’ from the 2001 paper, or, from the same, ‘Senior teaching monastics may….be maintained by other UK practitioners….many NKT monastics may work full or part-time or, indeed, claim state benefits.’These more controversial though insightful quotes dont appear to be there-or maybe im missing something?? Once we have quotation, we must ensure quotation is not selective, as in the Mumford quote in the DS article which im sure you recall and which, amazingly has not been adjusted back!Yonteng (talk) 12:56, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
- I would hardly call rote learning controversial; something criticized hardly makes it a controversy. Possible state benefits absuse, however, may be controversial; but this claim is one of the things Waterhouse (2001) discredits. Emptymountains (talk) 16:45, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
- I disagree with the accuracy of this information; just because Waterhouse said it doesn't make it true. Study is study. Most serious NKT practitioners are on study programmes and these are very rigorous. It is not the purpose of the NKT study programmes to produce students who can simply parrot Geshe Kelsang's books through memorisation, although memorisation is a commitment of study, just as it is in Tibetan monasteries. I would not allow such inaccurate statements to remain in the article, no matter what 3rd party source said them. Such inaccurate information is one reason why 3rd party sources from people who do not practise within in the NKT are extremely unreliable. You may consider them neutral, but they might also be wrong. --Truthsayer62 (talk) 13:13, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
I am somewhat surprised by the speed at which you question the truth of these particular quotes and note that you have not questioned others cited from Waterhouse; reasons?. I recommend we follow a policy of balance. Truthbody above (up there somewhere) intelligently suggests 'keeping critical and supportive links balance' I suggest the same with quotes, rather than debating the validity of each. Surely this is better than endless debates over which 3rd p sources are relaible. Andi and Emptymountains seem to be communicating effectively.maybe we can all learn something from them????(Yes Mikey, thats praise [and an implicit apology BTW]PS isnt anybody from the NKT going to put the banner back to comply with WP guidelines? It would look a lot better if you didYonteng (talk) 13:25, 19 May 2009 (UTC) EM the fact that Waterhouse discredits the Guardian article (where please) should not be a reason for excldig it. If we put together all the different sources and apply reducto ad absurdum (?) We could discredit all refs in turn and wind up with nought!Yonteng (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 13:29, 19 May 2009 (UTC).
- Yonteng, you said, "Any claims that theses articles are discredited should be justified by reference to non-NKT sources in the interests of truth," and all I said was that I have such references and am ready to add them if need be. Emptymountains (talk) 13:35, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Removal of POV banner
Truthbody has removed the POV banner again. As i was unsure myself about whether it is justified or not, i read the respective guidelines.
There it says:
It is important to remember that the NPOV dispute tag does not mean that an article actually violates NPOV. It simply means that there is an ongoing dispute about whether the article complies with a neutral point of view or not. In any NPOV dispute, there will be some people who think the article complies with NPOV, and some people who disagree. In general, you should not remove the NPOV dispute tag merely because you personally feel the article complies with NPOV. Rather, the tag should be removed only when there is a consensus among the editors that the NPOV disputes have indeed been resolved.
and:
Sometimes people have edit wars over the NPOV dispute tag, or have an extended debate about whether there is a NPOV dispute or not. In general, if you find yourself having an ongoing dispute about whether a dispute exists, there's a good chance one does, and you should therefore leave the NPOV tag up until there is a consensus that it should be removed.
Sounds like the banner should be put in place again, don't you think, Truthbody?
Anyway, i am going to start making some edits in the next days. After that i will decide if i seriously have to dispute the neutrality of the article myself in addition to Yonteng (and Kt66 before, who apparently has retired specifically over his frustration with the NKT-related articles). The article has issues, as i said before, but especially the quick edits by Emptymountains seem to indicate that progress is possible. Andi 3ö (talk) 02:06, 19 May 2009 (UTC) Emptymountains Dear What about replacing the banners as a sign of good will (and to comply with guidelines)?See Andi's quote aboveYonteng (talk) 12:46, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
- I have answered you on my talk page, as you posted your comments about this there as well. From now on, please keep the conversation in one place only as per Wiki guidelines -- ideally on this page so others can see what is going on. Thanks. (Truthbody (talk) 16:59, 19 May 2009 (UTC))
TB You state:'I don't believe I am contradicting WP guidelines. I believe you contradicted them by putting the banners up in a draconian manner in the first place without checking with other editors, and especially without giving any specific article content to back up your unilateral decision. Meanwhile, it seems other editors are making the article even more qualified as we speak, and there is even less call for the banners. Better if you could do your editing work yourself, making your improvements to the article -- those edits will remain if they are backed up by wp:rs and follow other WP guidelines. We should also keep this conversation on the NKT talk page, not have it here.'(So here it is!) I would ask you to read the following which Andi posted from WP guidelines:
Sometimes people have edit wars over the NPOV dispute tag, or have an extended debate about whether there is a NPOV dispute or not. In general, if you find yourself having an ongoing dispute about whether a dispute exists, there's a good chance one does, and you should therefore leave the NPOV tag up until there is a consensus that it should be removed.
I still believe the page as it stands lacks neutrality. In light of the above, the NPOV banner should therefore be replaced. I am the second editor to ask you to do this since it was you that removed it after inadequate consultation.
You have also not answered any of the questions concerning your involvement in the spying campaign on NK Survivors. This evasion, which I would suggest is no oversight, also leads me to think that you certainly are involved in a deliberate internet campaign to discredit NKT critics. I would therefore suggest that you appear to have a CoI and are not suited to contribute to this page at this time.Restoring the banners would go some way to addressing this concern though I believe the evidence of involvement you provided in your meat puppetry allegation merit a stage 2 CoI warning which now appears on your talk page. Please replace the banner.Yonteng (talk) 17:11, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
- To answer your question, I am not involved in any spying or internet campaign. It is no business of yours who chooses to send me messages they have read on survivors or what their motivation might be, and I likewise am free to report on information I receive if it transgresses Wiki guidelines and affects Wiki articles. This does not indicate any form of "campaign" -- you are making a paranoid statement. I deliberately did not name any names as I was reporting an instance of meat puppetry, which is not permitted on Wikipedia, not making personal attacks. Nor was there any evasion -- there is no law that one has to answer every question straightaway (and I do have a busy life), or indeed that one ever has to answer inappropriate questions that invade one's privacy. So far, you have not assumed wp:good faith of other editors. You have made an unwarranted accusation of a personal nature, and you've been warned several times about being uncivil to other editors. (Truthbody (talk) 17:26, 19 May 2009 (UTC))
Macro Organization
Dear Andi et al.,
Can we talk more about the contents of the NKT, GKG, MI, and DS(c) articles? To quote William above (although I don't know if he meant it in the context of article content), "Duplication is evil." I think it's a good idea not to repeat whole swaths of information from one article to another, but rather to link to where more detail can be found. For example, it makes no sense to me to have a section on NKT Ordination in both the NKT and GKG articles; it pertains more to the NKT article, because we are talking about ordination within the NKT, not GKG's personal ordination which would be covered in the GKG article. Also, although GKG's expulsion deserves a mention in the NKT article, that pertains more to him personally than to the NKT as an organization, so the details should be found in the article about him. And also, the "split" from the FPMT was not between it and the NKT (which did not exist in the '80s) or even between it and GKG (see GKG talk page: Separation from the FPMT?), but between the FPMT and MI, which is why that period in history is detailed in that relevant article. However, a "see main article" link (or at least a prominent Wiki link) should of course be made available whenever such a fork occurs.
Kt66 felt that nothing "controversial" about the NKT should be missed, so it was repeated in any and every NKT-related article, which is how they become so rambling/sprawling. What I am suggesting at the outset here is a middle way between not mentioning something at all, and unnecessarily repeating the same information verbatim in each article. To me, such macro organization makes the articles more readable for the readers, and more manageable for the editors. Emptymountains (talk) 12:20, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
- I think i can almost fully agree to the approach you outline (Middle way somehow always sounds like a good idea to me, hehe :D) Couple of things we have to keep in mind while "macro-organizing" the NKT-related articles are:
- 1)Avoid POV forking.
- 2)Spinouts on the other hand are ok.
- 3)Each article has to be balanced in and of itself and comply with WP:NPOV, specifically WP:DUE. That's why WP:POVFORK explixitely states that "the moved material must be replaced with an NPOV summary of that material. If it is not, then the "spinning out" is really a clear act of POV forking"
- Andi 3ö (talk) 14:09, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Replacing banners
I have asked truthbody to replace the NPOV banner twice now. User Andi30( with an umlaut!) has also done so. I have also asked Atisha's Cook to do the same. Both Andi and I have explained that the WP NPOV guidelines state: ' In general, if you find yourself having an ongoing dispute about whether a dispute exists, there's a good chance one does, and you should therefore leave the NPOV tag up until there is a consensus that it should be removed.' Since we are in such a situation, since ith as been pointed out but ignored, and since no consensus has been reached, it seems appropriate to replace the banner. i am therefore doing so.Yonteng (talk) 20:55, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
- How about this instead: Please explain exactly which sections or sentences of the article are not wp:npov and then we can put the banners back until those parts that offend you are improved. You put the banners up there in the first place with no reference to anything in the article, and have never given any indication as to their justification based on what is in the article. Nor have you added anything yourself to the article or used any third-party sources. Please see the discussions above. We will never be able to reach a "consensus" if you are not prepared to discuss any specifics! And you are making no attempt to improve this article yourself -- you just keep putting a banner up and criticizing other editors on the talk page. Do you find this to be constructive? Meanwhile, Emptymountains has added a large number of third-party sources even since you first put the banners up, and the article is more professional, objective and neutral than ever. (Truthbody (talk) 13:52, 20 May 2009 (UTC))
You have, once again, removed the banner without consultation. If you read the above i have in fact made a number of suggestions (such as replacing some of the criticla links [Guardian/Independent] at the foot of the page) which have not been acted on. Since we have not discussed this, and since suggestions I have made have been ignored, I would remind you 'you should therefore leave the NPOV tag up until there is a consensus that it should be removed'. i am therefore replacing itYonteng (talk) 15:01, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
- Dear Yonteng: My comment here is not about the banners but about people ignoring or not acting on your suggestions. Please just keep in mind, we are not here to do your bidding. If you believe something needs to be (re-)added to the article, you could do it yourself. I'm not trying to be snotty, just encouraging you to contribute to the article besides being the banner police. Emptymountains (talk) 15:20, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
EM I think the response to the Lopez quote is using the article to debate the issue-it is inappropriate to use the article to 'right' the wrongs of those who hold opposing vies in that way I feelYonteng (talk) 17:24, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
- YT, I will work on it. In the last two days, I came across some similar (but different) interpretations by Waterhouse and Chryssides that I will add in by Thursday morning. Let me know what you think then. Emptymountains (talk) 18:18, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
I already stated my opinion that i think the banner is justified and i would indeed highly appreciate if Truthbody would stop removing it again and again (or even better: put it up himself again). On the other hand i don't think the banner as such is all too important as long as improvements towards WP:NPOV are possible. Also there is some truth (sic!) to Truthbody's reasoning as well. Why don't you help in the improvement yourself? Would be much faster then i guess. State some specific points that are not WP:NPOV and present a solution or ask others to help you find one. Yet again i very well understand the point you are making: "All the major editors seem to be NKT affiliated. This article simply can't be neutral." Problem is, that even if there was any truth to that (and looking at the edit history of the article alone there are some indications that there probably is), simply pointing out that fact doesn't help too much on WP. You cannot simply point out a problem and expect others to solve it for you. WP is solely dependent on the voluntary work of its editors. So the one thing that helps most in getting good articles that fulfill the various WP policies is to simply do it yourself. Of course there is an underlying structural problem here: it's only natural: subjects that are of very high interest to a small group of engaged editors and at the same time are of not much interest to the general public (like this one) have an elevated risk of being one-sided. On the other hand, if things get all to ugly, i tend to think that there are always quite a few editors around that are attracted to specifically that kind of subjects and help ring the bell and balance things a bit (like in this case right now e.g. Clay Collier, Asasjdgavjhg.... and yourself... and me of course :)) One last thing: I do think that some of the NKT affiliated editors sometimes go too far here in painting positvely their organization/tradition but i would never go so far as to think that they do that out of any malign intent. They are Buddhists after all!! As i stated earlier: they love the Dharma, they love their teacher, they love their Dharma Protector, they love their Sangha and they love the way their organization and they themselves contribute to spreading the Dharma in order to benefit all sentient beings! And, finally (very last point), my personal opinion is that they would most effectively do so if they allowed for a truly WP:NPOV picture (although we all know that such a thing as NPOV does not exist of course ;-)) of their organization and their beliefs here, because everything else only raises unnecessary/additional suspicion in other people (like me, as i can tell from personal introspection). Andi 3ö (talk) 17:43, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
- OK cool - i'll wait and see if TB puts the banners back. I have already started adding stuff (the two newspaper articles in the critical section) I also think the response to Lopez's quote should go - the section outlines the NKT view, then Lopez questions it, then 'the NKT responds'. Not appropriate IMO. I have said this to EM - let's see what happens (AGF)Yonteng (talk) 17:55, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
Teachers section
Ok...let's start with this section then. For a reader new to the subject the section is somewhat cryptic. It consists almost exclusively of direct quotes so the reader has to extract the info from those loosely connected quotes and maybe even misses the most basic points. I'd say an introductory passage should shortly state the following points:
- Geshe Kelsang is the main teacher
- (all/most/allmost all ?) other teachers are former (western) students
- they are qualified by participation in the Teacher Training Program
- they can be lay or ordained
Could someone please help me out on the second point (are there really no (guest) teachers with a Tibetan background or from other traditions) and please feel free to add to the points or object to their respective inclusion. Andi 3ö (talk) 12:31, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
- There are no teachers from other traditions, period, regardless of their nationality. This is part of the NKT's constitution, to preserve and promote the tradition of Je Tsongkhapa. (Truthbody (talk) 13:55, 20 May 2009 (UTC))
- Another way to express this is that only the Three Study Programs (i.e., General Program, Foundation Program, and Teacher Training Program) are taught at NKT-IKBU Centers. Therefore, only Buddhist Teachers who teach one or more of those programs are authorized to teach at NKT-IKBU Centers. Emptymountains (talk) 14:30, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
I feel like we are starting to balance things out (starting!) It feels best when both sides are apparent-one sided stuff is dodgy!Yonteng (talk) 18:26, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
One specific point: The article states:
David Kay found that lay people were almost as likely as monastics to be given teaching and leadership roles; and he sees this as an important modern Western adaptation of Gelug Buddhism, again because this includes Tantric practices which Tsongkhapa recommended to those with "a solid grounding of academic study and celibate monastic discipline."[52]
Maybe its just my insufficient understanding of the english language, but the phrase "important modern Western adaptation" in this context seems to have a bit of an (unnecessary) positive connotation to my ears that 2) doesn't quite connect to the second half of the sentence (including the quote at the end). The real message here seems to be (simply put): "Teaching is handled differently than traditionally in Tibet: lay people are allowed to teach, even tantric teachings, which Tsongkhapa recommended only for well trained monks."
This neutral observation should be written out appropriately (understandable to the uninformed reader) and can then subsequently be interpreted by the reader in different ways: Some may say: "Oh the hypocracy...they paint themselves as the keepers of the pure tradition and at the same time disregard the advice of their most prominent lineage lama." Others will say "good for them!" and take it as a sign of realism and flexibility of a dynamic tradition. No need to help the reader with her interpretation...
Any comments? Am i right or have i even totally missed the point? Andi 3ö (talk) 14:48, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
- Youre right! can you please ask Truthbody to leave the banner until consensus is reached that the article is neutral??Yonteng (talk) 15:04, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, Andi. Your language is better; I recommend the change. However, I do think that the word important there could go either way; it could be read in the direction pointing out the seriousness of the change, not necessarily implying that it is a good thing. Emptymountains (talk) 16:11, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
- I note that, in terms of Highest Yoga Tantra, only the General Spiritual Director (GSD), Deputy Spiritual Director (DSD), and potentially a National Spiritual Director (NSD) can grant this. The two former must be ordained, whereas a NSD may be lay. I do not see any indication in the Internal Rules that anyone else can grant HYT empowerments. However, I do not know if Kay meant just any Tantric empowerment or HYT specifically, or even knew to make this distinction. Emptymountains (talk) 16:29, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
- Thanx for the additional info! I agree about the interpretation of important. Was thinking about replacing it with significant first but think that alone doesn't fix the passage as a whole. Will attempt a rewrite according to what i stated above tomorrow (i hope). BTW how do you like the intro sentence. Please feel free to improve (am not an english native speaker so wording can sometmes still be tricky). Andi 3ö (talk) 19:52, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
- Kay continues saying that one possible explanation for the change is that GKG regards the Bodhisattva vows as more important than the Pratimoksha vows (which is confirmed in Joyful Path, p. 255). Of course, then next come the Tantric vows. Emptymountains (talk) 22:32, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
Andi, could you read the above about the banner please?Yonteng (talk) 17:21, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
balancing the positive and negative
(Moved from above to this section)
Thanks-I added a jones quote in the intro. I feel like we are starting to balance things out (starting!) It feels best when both sides are apparent-one sided stuff is dodgy!Yonteng (talk) 18:27, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
- I honestly don't think that starting with such a "forceful" (if i may borrow that expression from Jones) edit is a good thing to do. The introduction is the most sensible part of any article, so i fully support Emptymountain's revert. Also, there are specific policies concerning the introduction: WP:INTRO. One of them is that the weight certain aspects of the subject are given in the intro should roughly resemble the weight they are given in the article itself. So the reasonable approach is to work from the bottom up. If you want to refer to the alleged agressive recruiting activity in the intro (which imho will hardly be justifiable anyway), then you should certainly put it in the main body first. Which raises the question, where to put it? One of the most difficult questions we will have to answer in the process is if we manage to integrate such critical statements (given they are fulfilling WP:RS criteria of course) into the structure of the article or if we will need an explicit "controversy" section in the end. (will have to think about it, guess there are pros and cons to both solutions) Andi 3ö (talk) 19:28, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
Well fine. The main reason i put it in was to see how 'reasonable' my colleagues would be; as you can see both the quote and the banners have gone. What does that say/ To me it says exactly what Kt66 said about bullying and reversion of critical comment. The intor nneds to be balanced-it should give a general overview. To add critical info a that point is to show that, as well as having its share of suppporters, the NKT has critics. But. as Kt66 stated, and Chris Fynn and Rudhy, as soon as you put critical info in, NKT editors edit it out. the proof of the pudding is in the eating and we have just had another serving, Banners? obviously necessary.Yonteng (talk) 20:44, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
- No, sorry, to me that isn't prooving anything. As i said, imho the removal of that quote was reasonable. Put the info (not necessarily the quote itself, you might as well put it in your own words) in a reasonable place within the article! Then, if it's removed again without a proper reason (e.g. discrediting the source or improper placing) that would be your "proof". Andi 3ö (talk) 21:19, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
OK lets put the jones quote in the growth and financing section???Yonteng (talk) 21:13, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
- I do not see how Jones is a reliable source. Is this published somewhere? Has it been cited in scholarly sources? Just because it's on the internet does not mean it belongs in Wikipedia. Emptymountains (talk) 22:39, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
- I contend with the accuracy of the quote in the first place. Recruitment of new members is not a major activity of the NKT. The NKT doesn't have 'members', it has people who are following the path of Kadampa Buddhism but only if they wish to. An NKT Center will hold meditation classes locally and advertise those classes. People are free to attend or not attend as they wish and having attended, they are free to continue to do so or not. The success of NKT is only because people need Dharma to solve their human problems and they are finding great benefit in Geshe Kelsang's presentation - there's not some proselytising recruitment drive going on. --Truthsayer62 (talk) 06:20, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
- Like I said, the Jones quote (which you'll find in Kay, page 96), because it is critical, is poo-pood. Why, because TS 62 doent agree with it. So a genuine 3rd party source, quoted in a reliable academic source (which the NKT claim is written by someone with 'issues') is blasted out of the water because it deosnt conform to NKT world view. EM-If youre going to talk the talk, you have to walk the walk-even minded, academic dispassion is absent. One sidedness rules supreme. Where is the banner?NKT editors have shown their true colours instantly a controversial quote is suggested.Can I really be bothered? Can you imagine the effort-insert a valid quote-editted out because NKT editors disagree-try again-editted out etc etc ad infinitum. I am now certain that CoI/NPOV are relevant. I think we should call ask for independent ajudication-reasons why not please.Yonteng (talk) 07:35, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
- Dear Yonteng, I disagree with the quote because it's not the truth. Just because something is quoted by a 3rd party academic source it does not mean that it is true. I see many distortions of perception of NKT in the writings of people like Kay and Jones because they don't know Geshe Kelsang's intention and they don't understand how NKT works. Just yesterday I was at a teaching by Geshe Kelsang where he said
- "Our common aim is to spread Kadam Dharma throughout the world. Why? It helps people to maintain a peaceful and happy mind all the time and experience a meaningful life. It creates permanent world peace and solves human problems permanently. Through compassion, with a good heart, our aim should be to spread Kadam Dharma"
- As I said before, NKT is not trying to increase its membership in order to have power. It's not trying to increase its 'membership' (there is no such thing) at all, just trying to help others. I therefore understand that Jones' comment is misleading but because I refuse to concur with his and your view you think I have POV issues. --Truthsayer62 (talk) 12:49, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
- YT, thank you for showing that he was cited in Kay. (I'll go check it out in a bit.) Please do not misunderstand my intention in asking. I myself wish to include 3 more things from Jones in the article, but before I did I wanted to know if he was a reliable source. Emptymountains (talk) 12:06, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
This is how i see it:
- Emptymountain's removement of the quote from the Intro was justified (see my comment above)
- Emptymountain's asking whether the quote is a WP:RS is perfectly ok as well.
- Truthsayer62's statement is a personal assessment of the NKT's recruitment behaviour and as such should be considered a genuine statement and valuable contribution - be it only for the purpose of informing the discussion here about how an NKT insider sees these things. For the purposes of the article itself on the other hand it is totally irrelevant because it constitutes WP:OR. (not to mention WP:OR from an editor with a clear WP:COI) (But just to be clear: this still in no way implies that Truthsayer62's statement can't be perfectly true anyway; it's just not coming from a WP:RS)
- Yonteng, before crying out loud, i'd suggest you re-add the quote (or a description of the critical view in your own words, with the quote referenced in a footnote) in a suitable place within the article proper (not the WP:Intro), as i suggested before. Kay seems to be a WP:RS so i see no reason atm why this view should not be included.
BTW what does Kay himself say regarding this issue? He doesn't simply quote Jones, does he? He must somehow evaluate/frame that quote, use it to make a certain point himself... Maybe that statement then would be even better a basis for a critcal assessment of the NKT "recruitment" behaviour than the Jones quote? Finally, Yonteng, again, i suggest practicing a little patience, there is no reason to get so agitated about this issue. So far, nothing serious has happened: A quote you added has been removed from an unsuitable place, someone legitimately questioned the reliability of the source, someone else (irrelevantly) contested the content of the quote based on his own observations. Now it's your turn to re-add the info in a suitable way. BTW you can also make a concrete proposal on the talk page, so we can discuss it here first and/or help in finding proper wording. (that method regularly even further reduces the risk of being edited out again) Andi 3ö (talk) 13:11, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
- Okay, I added the Jones quote (along with Waterhouse and Kay) to the Growth and Finances section. I want to add some more Jones quotes, and then if I have time before work, I will add more 3RS references to go along with the Lopez quote. Emptymountains (talk) 13:13, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
- I am done now with the Lopez quote. Please note that I changed the name of the section '*Origins* of the name "New Kadampa Tradition" to... *Meaning* of the word Kadampa (i.e., just focusing on the word's etymology), so that discussion of the possible motive behind choosing the name of the organization could be saved for the Separation from Contemporary Tibetan Buddhism section, which now has three sub-divisions: New Kadampa Tradition vs. Gelugpa Tradition, Kadampa Buddhism vs. Tibetan Buddhism, and last but not least, the Dorje Shugden controversy. Emptymountains (talk) 13:58, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
- Ok lets look at how it gets twisted by an insider view (not criticism-just to help demonstrate a point-my comments are in brackets) publicity that according to Jones is comparatively [Jones does not use this term, he simply states it is] "forceful and extroverted" with regard to some other Buddhist groups [again, Jones does not use this comparative terminology, a terminology which almost places the onus on other groups to increase their publicity drive, despite the absentobservation that the Buddha himself actively discouraged proselytizing] , but nevertheless has helped the NKT-IKBU to achieve "a phenomenal increase in membership and centres."
- Kay says that Geshe Kelsang's response to any criticisms about its outreach efforts is that "every organization 'tries to attract more people with appropriate publicity.'"[67] Geshe Kelsang Gyatso has explained that the intention of the NKT-IKBU is not to convert people to Buddhism:Our intention in teaching Dharma is........{This is what perturbs me. Is this article a place where we present a) the official party line, then b) the criticisms of 'outsiders' and then, (seemingly invariably, and as with the Lopez quote] the insider response to such criticism? That is not academic dispassion. OK, this is no essay but it MUST be objective to conform to NPOV. It is not a soapbox for the NKT to proclaim the gospel according to them, then include some criticisms to show 'even-mindedness', then completely obliterate that even mindedness by using the article as a platform to refute the views of critics: 'Well, we say this, but our critics say that, but they are wrong because....' Thats how it reads and thats why it is still lacking in neutrality. BTW who removed the banner??Yonteng (talk) 14:53, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
- Leaflets tacked onto community bulletin boards is not proselytizing. Rather, it's that Buddhists do not walk up to strangers on the street and hand out tracts, nor try to convert people by going door-to-door.
- Jones does not use the word comparatively, but he is making a comparison between the NKT ("forceful and extroverted") and non-NKT Buddhist groups ("modest and introverted").
- The Growth and Fincancing section does not start with an (a) section (i.e., "the official party line" as you call it). It is already more of (b) followed by (c) in both paragraphs. Emptymountains (talk) 15:18, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
- A hyperlink is included in the citation. Emptymountains (talk) 16:42, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
- Here is the quote in context-
The traditional UK Buddhist organisation tends to be a rather introverted body of practitioners for whom recruitment of new members and proliferation of new branches is not a primary concern.In the ancient tradition they are available to make the Dharma known to those who take the trouble to inquire (thanks to some modest publicity); it is then up to the newcomer to take his or her interest further. Help is available but quite a lot of persistent personal effort is required, and there is commonly a high fallout rate. By contrast, all three movements (SGI/NKT/FWBO} are forceful and extrovert organisations where recruitment of new members is a major activity. They have a mission. However, even in SGI-UK (with a tradition of forceful recruiting) proselytisation is quite circumspect. Newcomers are simply made very welcome, and the seductive lure of a new identity of the kind offered by all movements, secular or religious, does the rest. Thus the NKT manual quoted earlier warns to "Be very careful not to give the impression it is a recruitment drive...to start with we need to agree with people, to show that we understand where they are at, not to resist them or argue with them. If we have a wild horse the best way to tame it is to mount it, to go with it." Nevertheless when the NKT reached my own little town in West Wales they promised in the local press an "explosion of Buddhism". Using dozens of young quickly trained teachers the NKT has in the last two or three years achieved a phenomenal increase in membership and centres. At the present rate soon every town in England and Wales will have an NKT presence--something quite unprecedented in Buddhist terms, and well ahead of the two other movements.
Atisha's cook seems to be the banner reverter. The same \ac who is not really contributing anything to the debate and who has been fully informed of wiki policy on the banner (ITs up thereA) Please, while there is conflcit over its presence, its presence is prescribed by guidleines-eradication without any discussion is just bad form and lacks AGF.Yonteng (talk) 15:12, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
EM, I quite agree 'leaflets tacked onto community bulletin boards is not proselytizing'.However, when one looks a those leaflets in any large city, where other groups perhaps run introductory classes one night a week, and one compares thrice weekly classes at several different locations, that IS! Where I live, I can take a 30 minute bus ride, 3 nights a week to 15 different NKT groups-Its hwat Bomber Harris calledblanket bombingYonteng (talk) 17:11, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
- see...and in my german hometown of almost a million people there's not even a single gelug study group, be it nkt or others :( Andi 3ö (talk) 17:59, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
Please dont give too much away-'Today Germany, tomorrow ze verld!' But seriously, in the UK, that could be any city, London, Liverpool, Birmingham, Manchester. You cant tell me that a dozen or so centres in 91 in one country to 1100 in 40 countries in less than 20 years is simply a result of 'consumer thirst'(people arent that thirsty)-there is a definite drive to expand here, ok, to 'help others', but, to me the rate of expansion has a somewhat sinister air to it. I always think of force growing seedlings-yes, they grow fast, tall and slim but then they topple because the stem has no substance. The other interesting thing is the 'membership' figure which, while the so called 'centres' (sometimes just a group in a rented hall) number increases, the member numbers hover around a constant number. You can draw you own conclusions about what that means but 'other' UK Buddhist groups in the different traditions are certainly picking up larger and larger numbers of ex-NKT people, particularly after the demos last year.I wouldnt expect people in the NKT to know this because of their isolation.Yonteng (talk) 19:46, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
EM when you say, youll be including more from Jones, did you mean the NKT..'displays numerous examples of intolerant paranoia. It does not deny, for example, that individuals have been expelled from NKT centres for "spreading disruptive information about NKT". And least one critic has been threatened with legal action in the event of the criticism being published.'? I bet that one doesnt make it in! SmileYonteng (talk) 20:30, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
- No, but if it gets inserted, I do have info to add to it to balance it out! Wink Emptymountains (talk) 21:03, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
Right then, I'll add some excessively pro-NKT stuff. I wonder what will happen then??? (Another wink)Yonteng (talk) 05:59, 22 May 2009 (UTC) Is 'In 1998, the NKT became a member of the British Network of Buddhist Organizations (NBO). Waterhouse notesthat when the NKT joined the British Network of Buddhist Organizations, about thirty percent of the other Buddhist groups identifying themselves with the Tibetan Buddhist tradition left the NBO.'Its from Kay?Yonteng (talk) 11:29, 22 May 2009 (UTC) If not, perhaps in KB v TB???Yonteng (talk) 11:31, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
- That is a good point, the word excessively. Do you see some excessively pro-NKT stuff? Not just "positive," but "excessively positive"? I think it's quite alright to have the critical, but I wonder what place sensationalism has in an encyclopedia. I note that Jones is not quoted anywhere else in Kay, so one has to ask why Kay didn't include that bit about "intolerant paranoia" either, as interesting a soundbite as it is.
- Another point: we can't get stuck in a time-warp when writing this article. It has been pointed out before during an AfD request that the Guardian piece, for example, is a bit outdated (going on 13 years old). Most of the sensational stuff is from the early- to mid-1990s. One has to question whether these accounts are representative of the organization now. At least, it should be made clear in the article exactly when these things were written about the organization.
- P.S. If you do not have a hardcopy of Waterhouse (and are just getting her quotes from Kay), I wanted to point this out for future reference: Wikipedia:CITE#SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT. Thanks! Emptymountains (talk) 11:56, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
- EM thanks for pointing out my mistake-I had become used to describing the whole article as 'excessively positive' due to the imbalance of postive v negative quotes but you are quite right, with reference to individual quotes it is an unnecessary tautology.
- The age of quotes?Feel free to add 'Writing in 1997...' if you wish, though claims that things have changed must also be justified from relevant sources. The British National party leader Nick Griffin is keen to distance himself from that organisations Neo-Nazi forerunner the National Front of the 1970s; the link however, is still a relevant one. Moreover, if we follow your reasoning, where is the cut off line and who decides it? Furthermore, should we contact Tharpa and tell them to edit out any scriptural references from NKT books as they were all written a long time ago? This argument is often employed by dubious organizations trying to distance themselves from the past 'We are an organic, ever changing mass and thus our former mistakes can not be attributed to who we are at present'. In the case of these dubious religious organisations, it is often an attempt to hoodwink the public by confusing an absolute analysis with a relative one.While the NKT may not be a permanent, inherently existent entity, it certainly is an mpermanent, dependantly arisen one that exists, in that manner, from moment to moment. One might just as easily argue that I cannot be accused of theft as i stole yesterday and the person who stole it no longer exists Finally, thank you for your advice on Wikipedia:CITE#SAYWHEREYOUGOTITYonteng (talk) 08:55, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
- You are right; the middle way has two aspects: impermanence and continuity. It is extreme to focus solely on one and not balance/compliment it with the other. So, how to avoid this? I thought it might be a good idea to have a sub-section just on the Guardian piece. Tabloid journalism or not, it started a snowball effect in the press, and its contents were copied in a number of places (e.g., the Critical Reviews links). We could put emphasis on the points that Kay, Lopez, etc. felt worth repeating. And, because some of the more sensational parts have indeed since been discredited by third-party sources, these could also be tackled. Finally, being a Wiki article on the NKT, we can certainly cite the NKT's reaction to the piece on a point-by-point basis. Since the contents of that article are so disputed, I think it would be a good idea to address them all in one place since having the format of tabloid claim by the Guardian, followed by claim discredited by 3RS, followed by claim disputed by NKT, all sprinkled throughout the article would keep tying things down.
- My comment about the "time-warp" came because Kt66's version of the article from many years ago was said to rely too heavily on Kay and the Guardian, giving undue weight to the latter, especially when more recent accounts of the NKT have been published. They say that one cannot prove a negative, but it is interesting to note that nothing at all like the Guardian piece has been published in 12 years. Surely, a religious organization that nefarious would keep attracting media attention; not even Bunting herself has revisted the issue! If it got her on the newspaper's front page once... Emptymountains (talk) 10:28, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
- EM
- Well for starters, neither the Guardian nor the Independent are considered to be 'tabloid'; both are known, along with the Times and the Telegraph, as reputable 'broadsheets'; the distinctions between the two types of journalism are well known (The Guardian does not as yet carry pictures of semi naked, large breasted women on its front cover or inside page, for example, as do the tabloids). So Im afraid that theory doesnt run. Again, tthat there havent been lot sof articles in the newspapers since the Guardian (which is not ancient history by the way, its fresher than say Nagarjuna or chandrakirti)is no indication that the NKT does not remain controversial. There is a HUGE amount of critical information across the emerging media of the WWW and not all of this can be atributed to Buntings work. The media has changed but the criticism remains, indeed has increased and is now widespread. I think your suggestion of presenting the Guardians points and then refutations would turn the page into an NKT soapbox. It would probably lead to further edit wars, once 'outsiders' started citing their particualr sources which undermine the NKTs refutation, a process which could continue ad infinitum. Yonteng (talk) 10:35, 23 May —Preceding undated comment added 10:52, 23 May 2009 (UTC).
with respect, Yonteng - this whole concept of (your words) "balancing the positive and the negative" - whereby you seem, by your statements above, to feel it necessary to counterpoint every piece of information that you perceive to be "positive" with something else that you perceive to be "negative" - together with the whole idea of (again, your word) "sides" within the WP editors, seems to me to misunderstand entirely the purpose and ethos of WP.
WP isn't about promotion of your views on a topic, be they positive of negative towards any subject. as WP editors we should be interested only in creating and contibuting to encyclopaedic articles with simple, factual, pertinent and important information about topics about which we have some knowledge.
you've said you just want to see a "neutral" article about NKT, and in accordance with WP:AGF i'm trying to assume that this is your intention. so i'd like to suggest that a necessary first step towards that neutrality might be to forget ths idea of positive and negative and be happy with a simple, factually accurate, and *relevant* article about a Buddhist tradition, whatever your, or my, personal feelings about it.
i think "balancing the positive and the negative" is a red herring on WP. Atisha's cook (talk) 15:42, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
- Dear AC thanks for your contribution and your POV, which you seem toassert is the 'WP' view of what an article should be. 'I fully agree the article shoudl be 'factual and accurate' but i am afraid you may not understand that as well as the NKTs many 'positive' qualities, there are also a number of 'negatives' relating to the organization, negatives which are a]facts and b] accurate.
- Therefore, I would suggest revisiting your appraisal of the purpose of WP and adding to your excellent definition the words 'reasoned' and 'balanced'. 'Reasoned' argument means facts supported by reasoning. Here, in the context of WP, this can be said to be the supporting of purportedly factual statements with 3rd party verifiable sources. In terms of balance this means presenting a topic in a way which incoroporates two opposing views in a neutral fashion, without taking sides. In an article on buddhist cosmology for example, one might find an explanation of the traditional, Indian explanation of the universe being composed of a central Mt meru and surronding continents for example, followed perhaps by contemporary Buddhist views on the same. A scientific article on Big bang theory, might first dleineate that theory from a closed universe perspective and then add arguments from the Big Crunch, open universe theorists perspective. With respect to the NKT, the article shoud be factual and balanced, presenting the organizations view of itself, backed up by quotation from relevant sources, plus favourable apprasials of the group from an outside perspective, necessarily backed up by clear reference to third party sources. however, facts concerning 'negative' views of the NKT, also need to be included. These might take the form of ex-members testimonials quoted in third party sources (such as the Guardian article) and also negative 'outsider' views, supported y reference to further 3rd party sources. In this way the article will be factual, balanced, relevant and neutral. I would suggest that if you cannot understand this reasoned view, your opinion may be distorted by an excessive adherence to the insdier perspective and that you ought to stay away from the article until you can approach it from a more broad minded perspective.In fact, EM and Andi are making good deal of progress on the article and I must say your absence, as well as TB and TB62s have contributed ot the progress they have made. In short, theyre doing fine now without you baby!(Its a song) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yonteng (talk • contribs) 07:37, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
EMSorry about your having to clean up my mess. i had my own kids so i know what it feels like. Thanks for that. I included the 'intolerant paranoia' quote for a wind-up (I thought it was obvious; my mistake) I too would not include it as it appears highly inflammatory. nevertheless, Jones does justify the quote with reasons. Legal threats (see Jones) and the like seem to be getting a little too frequent in the NKT context (quite topical eh?)though one does not find many other bona fide buddhist groups sabre rattling to the same degree. The nearest thing I can think of as an example of it is the endless political bickering between the sects in pre invasion Tibet. But the NKT, not being a political organisation, has left all that behind I suppose. Anyway, i think youre doing a good job and trying to be as neutral as you can and that is the best thing on offer at the moment so please dont stop. Have a good dayYonteng (talk) 10:35, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
- When I look at Jones' comments about legal threatsss, all I see is that there has been "at least one" (ever since the NKT was founded in 1991!). And then, this one singular verified(?) instance gets pluralized, and then you say (without referring to any additional sources) that legal threats from the NKT are becoming more and more frequent. It sounds like this claim is spinning out of control! You've created a monster. Emptymountains (talk) 10:48, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
- Well, there are the threats by KG to various newspapers/mags (Washington Post, China Morning Post,Newsweek) then there is the stuff over in the UK that you seemingly dont know about because its 'under wraps'(The Network of Buddhist Organisations were threatened last year when they told the NKT that they were behavingly badly by demonstrating-that is an ongoing scenario;contact the NBO for confirmation if you wish)There is more but to reveal the recipients of those threats would compromise their integrity-I would not therefore utilise those particular instances. No monster on my part! KGs legal advisers are busily perpetuating the beast though thus far its all gums and no teeth.Yonteng (talk) 11:00, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
- Well, you can't fault GKG for threatening legal action when libelous things are said (e.g., claiming the NKT were involved in the murder of Lobsang Gyatso, or claiming the NKT issued death threats to the Dalai Lama). If I remember correctly, all he asked for was a retraction, and he got it, thus no legal action. As far as the other things you mentioned, I guess we'll just have to wait until they are accounted for in 3RS. Emptymountains (talk) 11:14, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
- Well, there are the threats by KG to various newspapers/mags (Washington Post, China Morning Post,Newsweek) then there is the stuff over in the UK that you seemingly dont know about because its 'under wraps'(The Network of Buddhist Organisations were threatened last year when they told the NKT that they were behavingly badly by demonstrating-that is an ongoing scenario;contact the NBO for confirmation if you wish)There is more but to reveal the recipients of those threats would compromise their integrity-I would not therefore utilise those particular instances. No monster on my part! KGs legal advisers are busily perpetuating the beast though thus far its all gums and no teeth.Yonteng (talk) 11:00, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
- As I said, legal threats (plural). As you point out, these were issued UNLESS retractions were forthcoming. This does not include the threats of legal action that the NKT was born from during the Manjushri dispute: [6]
- So, from this, i think we can see that there is a long history of threats of litigation (justified or otherwise)associated with the organization, from its birth down to the present.The pluralization then, was the NKT's, not mine.Yonteng (talk) 14:32, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
- You cited (only) Jones for legal threatsss, but he is talking about only legal action towards one former member, not towards the press. You would fault the NKT for wanting a retraction of bad journalism? As far as that so-called blackmail transcription, it mentions "cvil ... and criminal illegalities" on the part of the FPMT that would merit police investigation. Much more serious even than some bad journalism! Those involved have since clarified that this refers to drug trafficking to fund FPMT Dharma Centers: [7]. You would fault Manjushri Institute for not wanting to be a part of that? So, Manjushri Institute said, "Let us go, or we'll take this information to the Solicitor General's Office," and guess what happened? The FPMT agreed! Litigation might seem inherently bad, at least when the law is not on your side. Emptymountains (talk) 16:05, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
Well, this has opened a whole can of worms! My personal point is since when was ANY of this stuff on either side in line with how Buddhists behave? You know, patience, non-retaliation and all that stuff. Irregardless of who was right or wrong here, the reality of it is there is whole lot of really nasty vindictive stuff going on that really isnt quite what the Buddha recommended BTW,I think youll find that the 'drug trafficking' allegation is a rather sticky wicket. No proof of anything and AFAIK it is considered HIGHLY inappropriate here or elsewhere to make reference to totally unsubstantiated allegations like that.(although in a desperate propaganda war, things like this sometimes float to the surface, alongside several other smelly brown things) At the end of the day, just check the vibe of the whole thing-does it reallly feel like something you would want your children to be involved in?Not mine thanks-I'd prefer they were a long, long way from such shenanigans. To return to the original point, the suggestion was made that there was, only ever '"at least one" legal threat(ever since the NKT was founded..')I simply disproved that point and all this spews out1 Keep cool EM. You are starting to argue the party line.I do not wish to lose respect for your genuine attempt to be reasonable.Lets just say that the KT has a history of sabre rattling, either apropriately or otherwise.With respectYonteng (talk) 16:32, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
- You didn't disprove that Jones only referred to one verified legal threat; you were putting words in Jones' mouth. You then posted a link, and I summarized what it said, for which you now say that I was the one who opened the can of worms? Do patience and non-retaliation mean that one should allow illegal activities to run amock at one's Dharma Center? I see nothing in that so-called blackmail tape that is vindictive. I see people wishing to protect the Dharma. Some have speculated that the spiritual reason for Lama Yeshe's early death is that he voluntarily took on all the negative karma of those involved in the illegal activites, so that the FPMT could survive.
- Anyway, if you don't want us to keep going off on these tangents, then I recommend sticking to things that have been reported in 3RS. Emptymountains (talk) 17:13, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
Hey, relax man! No need to get all stroppy. lets keep it light eh? Remember, common goal and all that.I think you might be letting personal stuff get in the way??I could argue with you but Ive seen to much of that on different sites to know that it is A BIG MISTAKE. I think I'll have a break for a couple of days if that will help. But remember (Arnold Schwarzenegger accent) 'I'll be back'. Have a good weekend and sincere best wishesYonteng (talk) 18:17, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
If we are to allow a reference from a guide book on why the NKT is controversial, i think it far more appropriate to allow the NKT to speak for itself on the issue. hence the short addition. If we are to get rid of the Truth reference, how much more so the Wilson one?Yonteng (talk) 11:25, 29 May 2009 (UTC) < material concerning Yonteng's suitability as editor moved to his talk page, per Emptymountains' suggestion below > Atisha's cook (talk) 12:10, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
balancing the positive and negative, pt. 2
EM and Andi
OK, getting back to editting rather than in-fighting: 1) I moved the tricycle quote to the Gelug section since it seems more relevant their and there was an element of 'soapboxing going on-'Clarke says but Tricycle says...' (Im sure Prof Clarke will be happy to know that he is on an equal footing with Americas foremost Buddhist periodical). I inserted Barrett here because there are a lot of NKT views of itself in the intro: one counter view(with a faulty reasoning -Clarke does NOT use the DS issue as his 'doctrinal issue-the following para eg begins 'another serious bone of contention...is the DS issue)follwed by an immediate response of why this is wrong from the NKT perspective is not balanced editing. As I say, the Trashcycle quote is more relevant in the Gelug section since it demonstrates the clear realtionship between the NKT and the Gelug from which it is derived.
- The reason why I expanded on the Clarke quote is that, as it stands now, it kind of leaves the reader hanging. Mentioning the Dorje Shugden controversy is very helpful to the reader, I think, since this is what the NKT is most infamously known for controversy-wise. And I did use the words in large part, which means that I did not try to assert "that THE doctrinal issue is DS." However, it is a doctrinal dispute, and is one of the reasons why the NKT was founded and so why Clarke classifies the NKT as a New Religious Movement.
- The Wilson quote is not just about NKT vs. Gelugpa. Besides, the quote is referring to Gelugpa teachings, not to the Gelugpa hierarchy. Rather, it takes a panoramic view of the entire organization, not only putting the DS controversy in context, but showing what the organization has to offer: "the New Kadampa Tradition offers standard Gelugpa teachings based on Geshe Kelsang's books, which present a systematic path to enlightenment." For this reason, I thought it was a good one-line summary of the whole article.
- I do not think that it had the same a-b-c structured soapboxing that you complained about before. Instead, it said what the aims of the NKT are: a new organization of an ancient tradition. Then it offered a counter-view by Clarke, saying that the NKT's aims are paradoxical. Then it offered a summary view by Wilson, who put it all together in the larger context.
- Let me know what you think. Emptymountains (talk) 11:44, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- P.S. The Wilson quote was not from Tricycle but from a contributing editor and former staff member of the periodical; it's from his own book, not from the periodical. I just looked back, and do not see the "Clarke says but Wilson says..." conjunction. To me, the Wilson quote is more of a continuation of what Clarke says rather than contradiction of it; thus, the Wilson quote is not a counter-view of the Clarke quote. Emptymountains (talk) 11:53, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- Well, the Clarke quote, as I say, DOES refer to the DS issue as 'Another serious bone of contention' (in a follwing para) indicating that there is more than one and, as I say, he does not refer to the DS thing specifically in the para talking about the doctrinal issues. It would therefore be misleading to let the reader think that Clarke is simply referring to the DS issue when he speaks of doctrinal issues (although Im not sure what he means, nor am i convinced by his argument-Steve Wass may have tried to invent his own 'tantric doctrine' as KG puts it, but Im afraid it looks like old fashioned immoral abuse of power and position from the outside)
- I think the Wislon quote looks good where it is, in context. At the beginning, it seemed more like a straight claim to authenticity.Yonteng (talk) 12:40, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- So, the DS issue is not a doctrinal one? It is not one of the reasons why the NKT is called a controversial NRM? You seem to think that his opening sentence only applies to the first paragraph, and not to the whole section: One bone of contention was the pre-NKT and the FPMT (representing exclusive and inclusive orientations); another bone of contention is the current DS debate. Both of these together are the doctrinal reasons why the NKT is characterized by Clarke as an NRM.
- Then, like I said above, we have a beginning (the NKT's aim), a middle (that Clarks finds this aim paradoxical, and instead refers to the NKT as a controversial NRM), but no end... I say "no end" because just saying that the NKT is controversially doctrinally can be misleading. One has to ask what NKT doctrines are controversial: refuge? bodhichitta? emptiness? ? exclusivism/Dorje Shugden? If only the latter, then it is important to clarify this, which the Wilson quote does: Other than this rather esoteric disagreement, the NKT presents sound Gelgupa teachings. There are already 3-4 quotes to the effect that the NKT presents mainstream Geglug teachings, so this point deserves to be summarized at the beginning. Emptymountains (talk) 13:19, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
I am also a little concerned (feel free to correct me EM) at what appears to be an attemet to include as many positives as possible, particualrly with ref to the Jones article. Jones is widely recogfnised as a piece highly critical of the NKT (its in the critical links)but you APPEAR to be extracting as many positives from it as you can and overlooking the fact that Jones really doesnt seem to like the nKT. I too can find articles that are supportive of the NKT (Waterhouse eg) and drain out the only critical quotes therein ofr the purposes of promoting a non-NPOV. But that is not what we are doing here is it? EM?Andi, please comment and discuss. I am trying to not engage with AC as there is a good deal of sophistry going on, basically attemting to paint me in a negative light. I suspect the poor thing is angry with me. So please, monitor ACs contribs as otherwise we go back to edit warring. With respect to all and a wish for AC in particular to chill out and have some peaceYonteng (talk) 09:13, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- The reason why I added to the Jones quote is that if you look at the first sentence, he says that the reasons for the NKT's growth are its (a) sound and (b) well-advertised teachings. What was written before only focused on the second reason, discussing how well the NKT markets itself in comparison to the other groups. However, this growth cannot be attributed to publicity alone; there has to be a reason why the NKT does not suffer from the high turnover rate that other groups do. The missing piece of the puzzle is that "newcomers to NKT-IKBU Centers 'receive a grounding in basic Buddhism which is arguably superior than what they might expect from less systematically organised centres.'" Emptymountains (talk) 11:44, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- As for Jones, well, maybe newcomers to the NKT do 'receive a grounding in basic Buddhism which is arguably superior than what they might expect from less systematically organised centres' However, it should not be forgotten that his view is that the NKT is a 'forceful and extrovert organisation where recruitment of new members is a major activity'Within his article, there is a definite sense that this systematisation can be seen as part of that desire for new members rather than just the wish to promote Dharma.
- I mean look, in context and in the same paragraph, it appears alongside the following:
This relative homogeneity arises mainly from an evangelising concern to make all newcomers fully fledged members.... In the NKT...newcomers receive a grounding in basic Buddhism which is arguably superior than what they might expect from less systematically organised centres. The negative features of the movement will not readily be apparent, and new members grow into its ethos.
- See what I mean? This is hardly praise of the NKT for its systematic approach. In fact, it seems to be more of a criticism for adhering to a systematic approach driven by the desire for full 'membership' and which conceals the ontroversy surrounding the organisation until people are hooked (one well documented, common feature of controversial movements is this distinction between the insider and outsider message-this, IMO. is what he is pointing to)If Jones' highly critical paper was as praise-filled as you seem to suggest, shoud it really be in the critical views section?Yonteng (talk) 12:40, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- Again, I did not pick out the quote because it was praiseworthy, but because it expanded upon another point that he made. As with Clarke, not everything in the primary material has to be side-by-side to be considered as part of the context of what he is saying. Emptymountains (talk) 13:19, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- P.S. I won't fight your revert of the Jones quote. Emptymountains (talk) 13:37, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
YT, with respect, we need not a balance between the positive and negative, but a balance between the subjective and the objective. Now, in the summary, we have the NKT's subjective view of itself, followed by an objective view (which is a combination of the Clarke and Wilson quotes). Emptymountains (talk) 13:37, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
I also notice a bit of "black-and-white" perception in your interpretation of these quotes. For example, you previously transitioned into the Clarke quote with "on the other hand," which implied that Clarke disagrees with the NKT's claim fully; rather, he says it is paradoxical. Then, you said that the Wilson quote was saying that what the Clarke quote claimed was wrong; it does no such thing. Wilson says that "Other than this" (i.e., the DS controversy) the NKT presents standard Gelug teachings. Clarke and Wilson are not talking about the same thing, so they cannot be contradicting each other: Clarke is talking about the NKT's controversial elements, while Wilson is evaluating the NKT's non-controversial elements. The article covers both, so the summary should cover both. Emptymountains (talk) 13:44, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- I did not quote Wilson, you did.In your perception subjective and objective are mixed up with pro and negative. Thats a mistake.You dont fight my revert on Jones because Im right. I agree with your 'in part' insertion. I do not think this is the right place for the quote-put it back to the Gelug section would you? Andi?I dont have much time for mind games at present, im busy. Words will never lead to the state beyond words; Ill be backYonteng (talk) 14:13, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- I never said you quoted Wilson, but above you said that the Clarke quote being "follwed by an immediate response of why this is wrong from the NKT perspective is not balanced editing." Wilson is not saying that Clarke is wrong, and Wilson is not speaking from an NKT perspective. Therefore, this is not a valid reason for (re)moving it.
- I'm not into mind games either, so let me clarify. Subjective = SPS. Objective = 3RS. An objective source can say something positive or negative (i.e., critical).
- Anyways, I noticed that the Clarke quote has given editors problems before, since Clarke is not too clear on what he means is controversial. I think the Barrett quote is much clearer, so I made them swap places. Hopefully, this will save us a lot of headache in the future in writing the summary. Again, this article covers the controversial and the not-so-controversial, so the summary should reflect both aspects of NKT doctrine. P.S. Notice that in the swap, I also moved the NKT subjective statement out of the summary.
- Actually, I would fight the Jones quote on this principle: in the future, rather than simply removing a sourced quote that you believe is taken out of context, why don't you put it into context? Why throw out the baby with the bath water? Emptymountains (talk) 14:27, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- Setting aside the manner in which the Jones quote was selectively presented to create an impression almost completely opposed to the authors original intent (something which Kt66 was a quality of certain individuals and which speaks reams BTW), I cannot find a section where it might be best suited. If you think it should go in, where and how should it be phrased?Yonteng (talk) 11:24, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- Jones himself says that the NKT has positive features as well as misgivings. That the NKT provides superior teachings to newcomers is certainly one of its positive features. That the author intended this to be taken as a positive feature is clear; this statement does not have to be misrepresented to turn it into something positive. In short, not everything Jones (or Kay, or Bunting, etc.) says has to be taken as a criticism.
- Being one of the two reasons he gives to explain the NKT's "phenomenal growth," it should go back where it was. However, if you think a misgiving (if any) he has about this is under-represented in the article, feel free to add that. This would be better than simply removing it altogether. Emptymountains (talk) 11:40, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
Im not sure Jones intention was as you state and would suggest you re-read the relevant para (its above) Im also inserting Barrett's reason for controversy 'oppposition to the Dalai Lama' While the barrett article DOES refer to DS, it is much later (para 8)He also cites the DLs eclecticism as a basis of the conflict BEFORE mentioning DSYonteng (talk) 12:40, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- Public opposition to the Dalai Lama for what? Oh.... it's the Dorje Shugden controversy!
There is a major theological dispute between the NKT and the Dalai Lama. The NKT worship a protector deity, Dorje Shugdän, ‘an emanation of the Wisdom Buddha Manjushri’; many Tibetan Buddhists regard Dorje Shugdän as unpredictable, even dangerous. The dispute came to a head when the Dalai Lama declared that public worship of the god cause harm both to himself and to the Tibetan Buddhist cause. In 1996 NKT followers staged several public demonstrations against the Dalai Lama, accusing him of ‘a policy of discrimination against Dorje Shugdän practitioners within the exile Tibetan community’.
- That's what attracted the publicity. Therefore, I am reverting your edits. P.S. For consistency, we are using NKT-IKBU throughout this article. Emptymountains (talk) 13:26, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
Please read the book!before the Ds issue is mentioned, it reads 'While the DL has drawn together teachings and practices from all four Tibetan schools, the NKT focuses on what it sees as the pure teachings of the kadampa tradition.it does not accept the Dalai Lama's authority.' So, to assert that it is just about DS is incorrect (do you have the book?I have it in front of me)94.192.139.167 (talk) 13:52, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- YT, what is your criterion for deciding when something belongs in the lead summary and when it does not? Why does the Wilson quote have to go but the Barrett quote get to stay? As I mentioned above, the Barrett and Wilson quotes are addressing two different areas of NKT doctrine and practice (the controversial, and the non-controversial, respectively); so, why aren't both being fully represented in the lead summary? Why only the controversial aspects? If the Wilson quote belongs in the Gelug section, then likewise why doesn't the Barrett quote belong in the Dorje Shugden controversy section? Emptymountains (talk) 13:44, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
I think there is plenty of non-controversial stuff in the intro and very little contro.I moved the Wilson quote becuase it did not substantiate the Barrett quote. However, I AGF andBarrett now represented in full and Wilson left in situ, both as you suggest94.192.139.167 (talk) 13:49, 26 May 2009 (UTC) Please see above, one para94.192.139.167 (talk) 13:53, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- Dear YT, thank you for explaining your reasoning. My only objection is that not everything about the NKT is controversial, something that Barrett/Clarke quotes on their own fail to clarify. (If only a part is controverisal, saying that the whole is controversial is a logical fallacy called generalizing from particulars. For example, if only your left foot was in pain, why would you say your whole body hurts?) The Wilson quote shows that the greater majority of what the NKT has to offer is not controversial. If only a minority of things about the NKT is controversial, then one would naturally expect there to be "plenty of non-controversial stuff in the intro and very little contro."
- The Wilson quote also shows the importance that Geshe-la's books have in the NKT, forming the basis of the 3 study programs. A number of references are quoted in the article stating that the 3 study programs based on Geshe-la's books are the distinguishing feature of the NKT, i.e., what distinguishes it from all other Buddhist groups. Something so important should also be summarized in the lead section. Emptymountains (talk) 12:15, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
EM You utilise Bunting to assert that the NKT is not guitly of any 'moral failings' Again, look at the whole article. For example, doesnt the below sound slightly immoral? Werent there calls for a government enquiry into the activities. This is certainly not to do with the DS issue, which it would appear, NKT eds are very keen to realte eveything to. There are other issues which are controversial, morally and which you overlook by referencing Bunting in the manner you have done so.
"Given this rate of development, the NKT needs a large income. At the Manjushri Mahayana Centre in Cumbria, virtually all the information pamphlets for visitors include a plea for money in one form or another. Where There's A Will, There's A Way offers advice on how to include the NKT in your will: "Even students who are now relatively poor often stand to inherit houses," it says. The Cumbria Centre has a Pound 1.2 million building program for the new gompa and new accommodation blocks. Donations of up to Pound 1,500 are requested and will "create enormous merits" in future lives, supporters are told.
In many of the pamphlets there are references to supporters giving "interest-free loans". This is one of the NKT's main methods of funding their expansion. One ex-NKT member became concerned when she saw the business plan for the new centre. The nine-bedroom mansion was to be bought with a mortgage of more than Pound 100,000. The deposit of about Pound 25,000 was made up from "loans" from supporters of between Pound 500 and Pound 2,000. But there was no provision to pay back the loans in the business plan; when questioned, the centre involved said they only paid back loans if really pushed.
"But the whole teaching makes you ashamed to push. You give money to gain merit and you're supposed to give willingly to Kelsang. The argument is that if you can afford to give Kelsang then you don't need the money anyway," she says.
"I knew of one person who had got his parents to lend him Pound 2,000. They asked me for Pound 500 and they asked me to take a loan from the bank. They were very insistent; they told me I'd been picked out by Kelsang as a leader - I'd never met him but, of course, he knows everything anyway."
An official statement released by the NKT in response to these and other allegations concerning the organization states that there is only one outstanding loan of Pound 200. Many other loans to individual centres "spiritually joined with the NKT" are listed however in accounts lodge with the Charity Commission. On another occasion this same ex-NKT member was asked for money again: "I was asked to covenant Pound 40 a month along with six or seven others in the group. Kelsang wanted our teacher to come off the dole because she was so high-profile and they wanted us to support her. I was rung up three times and each time I refused because I didn't have the money."
In some centres a substantial proportion of NKT resident members are on income support and housing benefit. Nuns and monks told former NKT members that they took off their traditional Tibetan robes to sign on at the local benefit office. "At the Tara Centre in Derbyshire, they told me that all 24 residents were on benefit except one Swiss nun," says the ex-NKT member."
The renting out of rooms to visitors that were already being paid for by state benefit recipients which the Guardian/Bunting commented on is certainly immoral.I suggest selective quotation is being used to draw attention to the DS issue and hide any other moral failings highlighted by BuntingYonteng (talk) 07:45, 27 May 2009 (UTC) See http://www.tibet.ca/en/newsroom/wtn/archive/old?y=1996&m=7&p=14_1 and http://tibet.ca/en/newsroom/wtn/archive/old?y=1996&m=8&p=18_1 Both by Bunting and, like other sections in the Shadow boxing article, which refer to moral, rather than doctrinal failingsYonteng (talk) 09:14, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
- And yet, given all of that, Bunting still says that there is no material exploitation? I could reference some of those things you mentioned, but then I would have to add Waterhouse (2001, p. 151) where she contacted the Social Security office in Cumbria (home of Manjushri Centre), who "found no substance to the allegations" of benefits fraud. I could also cite Waterhouse (1997, p. 146): "The Guardian suggested that members are coereced into loaning the NKT large sums of money which they are subsequently unable to retrieve. I saw no evidence of this." As I mentioned before, some of the more sensational things in that piece have since been discredited. Emptymountains (talk) 11:28, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
Discredited or contradicted? Remember NPOVYonteng (talk) 15:13, 27 May 2009 (UTC) You seem to be misconstruing these two terms, possibly because of having received a Western academic education and an introduction to classical Tibetan monastic educational methods. Discrediting is akin to 'refuting' (that old debate term), something Tibetans would do by applying logical arguments against an opposing POV and highlighting its flaws. Its something akin to what Trinlay Billman has done with his well-researched, though poorly argued,pseudo academic research on the history of DS (poorly argued and 'pseudo' because his fundamental straw man premise is that Dreyfus claims Pabongka invented the concept of DS as an enlightened being, whereas a brief examination of dreyfus' work shows he never said this)At least Billman TRIES however, despite the fact that the argument he 'refutes/discredits' is his own somewhat deceptive creation. Western academics in this field on the other hand do not rely on this process of analysis and counter argument. Each paper is a stand alone piece of academic analysis. While the Tibetans might have had the b**s to say 'that is garbage because...' Western academics tend to to just hypothesize and present opinions based on their own (self-serving) research. To refer to these researches as 'refutations' which 'discredit' the academic opinions of others is therefore an excessive position to hold. The most one can say is 'A says, but B says' What you are saying is 'A says, then B says,and because B said it after A 9or elsewhere), A's theory is discredited.' This is a false reasoning. The appropriate word is 'contradicted', not 'discredited'.Based on your theory, if something I say in a paper contradicts something stated elswhere or previously, that other statement is 'discredited'. The term then is inappropriate, and the decision to use it could easily be interpreted as political,something which the NKT steers clear of we are toldYonteng (talk) 17:21, 27 May 2009 (UTC) Would you for instance suggest that Kay's extensive academic work on the NKT and which is critical of the group for a number of reasons is 'discredited' because Wilson's piece in a low grade NY travel guide says the opposite? No, the term is 'contradicted'(Lit says the opposite')Yonteng (talk) 17:26, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
- 'The Department of Social Security is effectively subsidizing the NKT’s expansion to the tune of hundreds of thousands of pounds'-'Call to close sects benefits loophole' The Guardian 13 July 96
'We have no control over what they do with their money once they have been given their entitlement. They could donate every last penny of their benefits to the cause if they wanted.'-Sunday Mirror-'Buddha can you spare dime?'14 July 96 So nothing 'illegal', just 'immoral'-So thats alright then? That money could have paid for schools, hospitals, breast cancer treatment. Instead it paid for the NKT empire's growth. Sorry, Waterhouse may say 'nothing illegal' but it doesnt take a genius to see what is going on here. Since when did Buddha say this sort of behaviuor was acceptable? 'Well, theyd just spend it on weapons' was the party line, as far as I recallYonteng (talk) 20:50, 27 May 2009 (UTC) here's another meaning to 'discredit'. If it agrees with the NKT world view and contradicts critical academic material, it 'discredits' it. If it agrees with the NKT world view and is non-critical academic material it is 'valid research' If it diagrees with NKT world view and is academic research, as long as it is possible to find a single contradictory reference in ANY published material from ANYWHERE (Travel guides etc), it is 'discredited'. Yonteng (talk) 10:27, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- Just to clarify, Jeff Wilson is a Professor of Religious Studies at UNC. He is part of Harvard's The Pluralism Project. He is a former staff member of Tricycle, and remains one of its contributing editors. He isn't just the author of a "travel guide," as he has also been published by Wisdom Publications who calls him "A major new voice in Western Buddhism." Emptymountains (talk) 13:56, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Just to clarify,'The Buddhist Guide to New York: Where to Go, What to Do, and How to Make the Most of the Fantastic Resources in the Tri-state Area' is hardly the most authoritative academic work on the market when it comes to the DS issue OR the NKT-it is a guide book. If David N Kay's 'Tibetan and Zen Buddhism in Britain' cites multiple reasons for the controversies surrounding the NKT and ASSISTANT Prof Wilson's (who completed his doctoral thesis in only 2007 and is a Japanese Jodo Shinshu buddhist-dont they condone/make money out of abortion? Mizuko Kuyo??Hasn't Buddhism come a long way?) 'Buddhist Guide to New York' says different, who ya gonna call?
BTW Tricycle may be held in high esteem where you are, but I dont know a single Buddhist on this side of the pond that reads it. In general, its reputation here is not an indication of either authenticity or credibility, indeed its often the opposite-eg Stephen Batchelor is a long term contributing editor to the same and he denies the existence of karma and rebirth (Uh? Holding wrong views?). My point on your use of the term 'dicredited' stands. i apologise for expressing my opinion towards your misuse of the term so vehemently. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume it was employed out of ignorance rather than any deliberate intent to manipulate truth(!)However, I will be keeping an eye out for it in the future. Iwould AGF but your distortion of the Mumford quote in the DS article then the apparent selective quotation of the Jones quote in the NKT article make me suspicious94.192.139.167 (talk) 15:50, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- If we are to allow a reference from a guide book on why the NKT is controversial, i think it far more appropriate to allow the NKT to speak for itself on the issue. hence the short addition. If we are to get rid of the Truth reference, how much more so the Wilson one?Yonteng (talk) 11:26, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
- Otherwise, the reader may not follow, not knowing what the words "this rather esoteric disagreement" is referring to.
- I am wondering, in "balancing the positive and the negative," what is the ratio you are aiming for? 50:50? Emptymountains (talk) 16:12, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
Well I just think we shoud present as much of the positive as possible and list the projected negatives (not buried at the end) Im not in for negotiating ratios just making sure we have a full picture. In terms of the intro passage,I think you have achieved a good balance here-entirely neutral followed by short ref to criticism and responses(50/50)[to deny criticism would be to hide truth], followed by Barrett (critical) then Wilson (supportive)Your presentation looks pretty good from here Well done on assuming NPOV on this oneYonteng (talk) 19:15, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
Yonteng's bias?
< moved to Yonteng's talk page, per suggestion below > Atisha's cook (talk) 12:01, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- I wish y'all would keep the personal stuff on your own user talk pages. (Remember, argue facts not personalities.) So, please move it, or I'll do it for you. Emptymountains (talk) 11:43, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
Many thanks for moving the stuff whoever did so> I fully agree with EMs sensible comments YontengYonteng (talk) 12:35, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
Please be aware of the judgement below- http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/05/29/wikipedia_bans_scientology/Yonteng (talk) 19:33, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
PS be aware that the name of the organisation mentioned in the ruling is arbitrary and could be substituted with that of any well known controversial relgious organisation. Now read on, inserting the appropriate name at the relevant pointsYonteng (talk) 19:46, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
- Yonteng - are you seriously attempting to compare Kadampa Buddhism with Scientology?? <-edited: i don't really know anything about Scientology so it's not up to me to comment. nonetheless, your comparison is entirely absurd. > Atisha's cook (talk) 21:54, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
No, I am hoping people will realise that 'corporate' edit warring and use of the tactics outlined in the article, many of which a small group of dedicated editors have engaged in on this page, can result in permanent blocking. it would therefore be wie to refrain from such behaviour, wouldnt you agree?Yonteng (talk) 07:52, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
- personally, i've had about enough of this from you. who exactly are you accusing of this "'corporate' edit warring and use of the tactics outlined in the article" and where, precisely, is your evidence? you be careful - making such an accusation is bad form unless you're certain and you've the evidence to back it up. Atisha's cook (talk) 09:20, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
Dear AC i refer you to the response I made to your comments on my talk page, for which i have not reported you. Generally speaking, I would like to compliment User Emptymountains on his restraint and level headedness over recent days, particularly in the face of the apparent volatility sometimes manifest. Truthbody too, has been quite reasonable in accepting an edit of EMs though initially he disagreed with its positioning. The article would certainly benefit from continued level headedness on all our parts. Those who are feeling emotional may need to just rest a little. it does help. A 'driven' editor is an ineffective editor. With respectYonteng (talk) 09:37, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
- um - ok... but you just accused "a small group of dedicated editors" of "'corporate' edit warring and use of the tactics outlined in the article" [that you linked to re. Scientology]. you should back that up, or retract it. Atisha's cook (talk) 10:04, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
Listed above under YontenG's addition of disputed tagYonteng (talk) 11:07, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
- ??? er - likewise, all those accusations were responded to and refuted under that heading also. did you not understand? your accusation is a very serious one. i can tell you that i haven't engaged in any kind of "corporate edit-warring", and i see no evidence of, or reason to suppose that any other editors are engaged in such.
- once again, i ask you to retract that accusation, or take it to the appropriate Admin. Noticeboard for adjudication (didn't you do that already, and it was rejected?)
- failing this, your accusation is just more hot air and bad manners. Atisha's cook (talk) 11:55, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
AFAIAA Admins are observing the activities of myself and those named, including yourself-see relevant talk pages-no rejection has been issued. Please feel free to continue as you are but, unless there is definite and substantive evidence against my allegation, I will not be retracting anything. Feel free to raise the issue with admins (yet again!), but leave me out of it (you are completely mention my supposed bias, of course, but be aware they will read all concerned's posts, not only mine, and check their edit histories). I am afraid I dont wish to engage with you as many of your attacks are personal, hostile ad homs.It is therefore pointless debating with you. I sincerely hope you feel better soonYonteng (talk) 12:04, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
- "unless there is definite and substantive evidence against my allegation, I will not be retracting anything" what?! it's up to the accuser to provide evidence to prove the allegation, not the defendant to disprove it!
- "leave me out of it" are you serious??? the accusation came from you!
- anyway - there it is, for all to see. i've nothing more to say to you for now - as you say, it's pointless. Atisha's cook (talk) 13:12, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
balancing the positive and negative, pt. 3
Please consider this:
Yonteng eats any and all flavors of ice cream.
Emptymountains only eats pure chocolate ice cream.
Therefore, Emptymountains is opposed to Yonteng's choice of ice cream.
Does that make sense? Why does my choice of ice cream flavor have to be a statement about what you've chosen? Sure, our choices can be contrasted, but that does not mean that I am opposed to what you got. Likewise, Barrett contrasts the fact that the Dalai Lama practices 4 traditions while the NKT practices only 1, but it is nothing more than a contrast. Barrett does not say that NKT is opposed to the Dalai Lama being eclectic himself, only that the NKT does not follow his example in this. Geshe Kelsang says:
I already mentioned that the Dalai Lama has freedom to do as he chooses in his own practice. If he wants to stop Dorje Shugden practice and choose other practices through receiving certain indications such as dreams and so forth, then he is free to do so. I am not criticizing him for this reason, but because he is interfering in the freedom of others to worship as they choose.
It's a sublte but definite difference. Emptymountains (talk) 15:08, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
I am not sure about your decision to use the term 'pure': I may choose to eat more than one 'pure'flavour.I think i see your reasoning but I would like to include Barretts observations, particularly: The NKTs opposition to the DL; its non-acceptance of his authority; the DS dispute.These are linked and relevant. These are clearly delineated in the relevant passage.The NKTruth site refers tothe other criticisms AND the NKT responses so it seems balanced, Finally, the difference between 'sublte' and 'subtle' is indeed subtle!!!AVaLarf!!Yonteng (talk) 15:46, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
- Ah-ha! "We have never said that here we are pure, whereas others are not pure. The Dharma is the same." –GKG. Emptymountains (talk) 20:05, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
- the DL has never held any authority whatsoever over NKT-IKBU, so there's no non-acceptance of authority. similarly, NKT-IKBU has never opposed the DL: it has disagreed, and many of its members have engaged in protests at his policy re. Dorje Shugden, but NKT-IKBU as an organisation has never, to my knowledge, stated any kind of opposition to Tenzin Gyatso individually, or to the institution of the DL. if they have, please provide ref.s Atisha's cook (talk) 16:48, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
Well, lets just have a read of this letter circulated to all NKT centres in mid April 2008
My Dear Students,
I need help from you to solve the Dorje Shugden problem created by the Dalai Lama. Right now the Dalai Lama is removing the Tibetan Shugden worshipers from the Buddhist community saying that Shugden worshipers are not Buddhist because they worship an evil spirit - Shugden. At the same time he is preparing to remove western Shugden worshipers from the Buddhist community with the same reasons. His aim is to destroy the pure lineage of Je Tsongkhapa´s doctrine. To stop this evil action, as the representative of the Western Shugden Society, I personally will organise demonstrations against the Dalai Lama directly. I requested Kelsang Pema and Kelsang Thubchen to do this job for me and they have accepted.
Please help Pema and Thubchen with whatever they need.
With much love and prayers
Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
So,organised by KG, led by his 2nd in command (All over youtube), populated overwhwelmingly by NKT followers (as you say above). Your response?'No, that was the WSS, not the NKT. My response? if you take the basis of imputation that constitutes a fit foundation for the apellation 'elephant' and instead call it 'a mouse', is it a mouse or an elephant?
Is that enough?Yonteng (talk) 21:22, 30 May 2009 (UTC) PS Sorry, cant work out how to put pdfs on WP but Im sure youve seen the original;)Yonteng (talk) 21:29, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
- EM re purity-Heres Neil Elliott 1993 Vajravarahi Preston-Its available as a sound file too!
"So therefore, this I would like to say, when Geshe Kelsang says that he established the New Kadampa Tradition so as to preserve and protect the Dharma, that was transmitted from the Wisdom Buddha Manjushri to Je Tsongkhapa, this is what he is talking about, the Mahamudra. This is the actual inner practice of the New Kadampa Tradition, the only practice of the New Kadampa Tradition. And we can say these days, previously you could find the practice of the Mahamudra outside this Tradition; other Traditions held this practice. But these days we can say definitely it doesn't exist outside of our Tradition. Only this Tradition holds the lineage, the pure lineage, of the Vajrayana Mahamudra. So this is what we need to preserve, this is what we need to protect. Geshe-la has carried this entire lineage................................"
What was it KG said? "We have never said that here we are pure, whereas others are not pure.'Urrr?Yonteng (talk) 22:26, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
- This is clarified in Mahamudra Tantra (pp. 71-74). He is referring to the lineage of practice that comes hrough the Ganden Oral Lineage given to Je Tsongkhapa by Manjushri: "Therefore, our uncommon Mahamudra Tantra practice begins with meditating on the central channel of the heart channel wheel. The transmission, teachings and lineage of this uncommon instruction are not possessed by any other tradition." The Kagyupas still have the lineage of Mahamudra Tantra where the practice begins at the navel chakra, which is also shared by the Gelugpas and taught by GKG in Clear Light of Bliss. Emptymountains (talk) 01:39, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
- the WSS protested against "this evil action" - the DL's attempted destruction of a spiritual lineage and division of the Buddhist community. they had no personal agenda against the DL. can't you see the distinction here? also, another distinction: NKT does not equal WSS, but one person can be part of both. a person can be a bowler when he's playing cricket and a goalkeeper when he's playing football: he might be called Bill whatever game he plays, but that does not make a bowler equal and identical to a goalkeeper.
- then - your quote above is 16 years old, from someone who has not taught for NKT-IKBU in almost as many years. his views may well have changed in the 16 years since giving this teaching, and in any case just because he said this, it's only one person's words - it does not mean that it was, even at the time, an official position of the NKT.
- i said i had nothing more to say to you about your bias, but man oh man! why are you so intent on mudslinging? i really don't get it. why don't you go contribute to articles on topics about which you know something, such as those concerning your own tradition? i promise i won't bother you there.Atisha's cook (talk) 23:48, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
- thanks for that clarification, Emptymountains. i hadn't understood that, but you're quite right - there is nothing incorrect in that quote, nor anything contradictory to Venerable Geshe Kelsang's statement. Atisha's cook (talk) 01:49, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
- where d'you get all this stuff from, Yonteng? trawling through teachings from 16 years ago trying to find something negative... that's some real dedication to neutral editing. Atisha's cook (talk) 01:54, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
Where do we get the buddha's teaching from? By studying things that were first spoken thousands of years ago.16 years hardly invalidates the statement-if it does, ohw much more so the Buddha's teaching?Neil Elliott may not have taught but he still works closely with KG (Check 'Guie to the Bodhisattvas way of life' and helps run the WSS (Check you tube)'neutral'? No. balancing the positive with the negativeYonteng (talk) 08:07, 31 May 2009 (UTC) PS KGs statement "The transmission, teachings and lineage of this uncommon instruction are not possessed by any other tradition." is just plain wrong annd only demonstrates his lack of knowledge of the other Sarma traditions (Obviously Nyingmapas too meditate on Tsa Lun Thigle but use Dzog Chen-one finds tantric Mahamudra in the Kagyu and Sakya, and the Kagyus also teach a disputed form of sutra mahamudra minus the channels winds and drops. Contrary to ACs comment it therefore confirms Elliotts ignorant stance on the doctrinal issueYonteng (talk) 08:16, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
- you're quite wrong there, Yonteng - my comments about the quote being old likewise missed the point. in fact, Neil Elliott was quite accurate: please see Emptymountains' explanation above. Atisha's cook (talk) 08:39, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
KGs statement 'The transmission, teachings and lineage of this uncommon instruction are not possessed by any other tradition.' is a meaningless and redundant statement since the same can be said of almost any present day teaching in the Buddhist tradition.Your concurrence with Elliot's blatantly sectarian statement, claiming as it does that 'Only this Tradition (the NKT) holds the lineage, the pure lineage, of the Vajrayana Mahamudra.', which by implication directly condemns the Kagyu and Sakya lineages of Vajrayana Mahamudra as impure, is clear and citeable evidence of a definite inability to practice NPOV and consequently your inability to edit the NKT article effectively. Beyond the NKT the comment is widely held to be one of the most outrageously sectarian statements ever to spew forth from the NKTs ex- second in charge, before his rather unceremonious public jettisoning for 'conduct unbecoming'(See 'Sect Disrobes British Monk') Not the type of 'qualified Tantric master' I would follow if I ever chose to practice tantra, despite the hyperbolic advertising and his being 'deeply revered' by the adulant masses.You can fool some of the people some of the time......... http://www.tibet.ca/en/newsroom/wtn/archive/old?y=1996&m=8&p=18_1) Also, your assertion that a statement is invalid because it is 16 years old means KGs Understanding the Mind (first published 1993) is therefore equally invalidYonteng (talk) 11:35, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
- "New Kadampa Tradition" = Gelugpa Tradition, at least according to Je Tsongkhapa. Since the time of Je Tsongkhapa, the New Kadampa Tradition (aka the Gelugpa Tradition) has been the sole possessor of the uncommon Varjrayana Mahamudra practice wherein one begins to meditate on the central channel of the heart channel wheel (as opposed to say, the navel channel wheel). Sure, other traditions have their own lineages of Mahamudra, but they don't have this particular one. If that fact is a sectarian statement, then the Gelugpa tradition has been sectarian from the start!
- Although originally taught by Buddha Vajradhara in the Ambhidana Tantra, this lineage was eventually lost by all Tantric traditions, until it was passed down again to Je Tsongkhapa through Manjushri (who still held the lineage). So, in Root Tantra of Manjushri, when Buddha Shakyamuni predicts Manjushri's emanation in Tibet as Je Tsongkhapa: "After I pass away and my pure doctrine is absent, you will appear as an ordinary being, performing the deeds of a Buddha and establishing the Joyful Land, the great Protector, in the Land of the Snows," he is referring to this special uncommon (not the common) Mahamudra practice. Buddha himself regarded this uncommon practice as superior to other forms of Mahamudra practice; the reasons are given in Tantric Grounds and Paths (pp. 121, 123).
- All of the Mahamudra lineage Gurus of this uncommon practice have been Gelugpas. A handful of the most recent of them have all been Dorje Shugden practitioners. (You can read about some of them on the Dorje Shugden History website.) If they are now no longer regarded as authentic Buddhist Masters (but mere "spirit worshippers"), what happens to the blessings of that uncommon practice lineage? What happens to Je Tsongkhapa's tradition? "And my pure doctrine is absent" once again! Emptymountains (talk) 12:13, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
Well you can spout the party line til the cows come home but that doesnt answer the point that Elliot clearly denies the purity of Kagyu and Sakya mahamudra. All the stuff you write about the special nature of the NKT lineage only shows your scant knowledge of the Sarma traditions on Mahamudra (I suspect you have no experience of Buddhism outside the NKT. otherthan in a junior academic context?). I dont really have time for polemic and sectarian rhetoric (I have a life and many teachers say it is pointless debating with people nowadays). Call it what you want but Elliotts statment is dodgy! Can we stick to the article please!!! This kind of doctrinal dispute is out of place here. I want to continue enjoying working with you if thats ok, so lets stcik to the article and not start arguing over whose pure and whose not;)94.192.139.167 (talk) 12:44, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
- "Can we stick to the article please"??? Again, you are the one who opened yet another can of worms by bringing the Mahamudra topic up. I am not sure what you mean by 'party line'. There is both the common and the uncommon Mahamudra practices. The common one is the topic of the Dalai Lama's book The Gelug/Kagyu Tradition of Mahamudra, wherein he also mentions the "uncommon near lineage deriving from the Buddha-form or 'deity' Manjushri, bestowed on Tsongkhapa" (p. 170). I don't see how either the Dalai Lama nor Elliot are "clearly denying the purity of Kagyu and Sakya mahamudra" simply by noting that this uncommon practice does not exist in the Kagyu or Sakya traditions.
- But, perhaps you are objecting to Buddha's words "and my pure doctrine is absent"? Is the Buddha being sectarian because he himself said that this uncommon form Vajrayana Mahamudra is his greatest teaching? (When Dzogchen practitioners claim something similar about their practice, why is that not likewise deemed sectarian?) Does not the Dalai Lama also say that if Vajrayana Buddhsim were to die out, there would no longer be a complete form of Buddhism in this world? This is just an extension of that. Anyway, you can check the original Tibetan yourself in Blo bzang 'phrin las rnam rgyal. 'Jam mgon chos kyi rgyal po tsong kha pa chen po'i rnam thar. Varanasi slob ge ldan spyi las khang (2000, p. 27).
- But, perhaps you are not so gung-ho with the words pure and supreme, since they might imply that anything else is impure and inferior. I, myself, try not to read Dharma in such black-or-white terms. The Dalai Lama himself says that Je Tsongkhapa's "status as a great scholar and meditator is unparralleled" (The Union of Bliss and Emtpiness, p. 21) and that "his presentation of emptiness in relation to interdependent origination has never been equaled" (Beyong Dogma, p. 163). So, these statements are sectarian if made by an NKT-IKBU Teacher, but not if made by the Dalai Lama? And, what about Prasangika-Madhyamaka being Buddha's highest philosophical view?
- P.S. Your suspicions are incorrect. Emptymountains (talk) 14:40, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
"Can we stick to the article please" :-D that's kind of rich, dude, considering it was you who brought this up in the first place! neither Neil Elliott's, nor Venerable Geshe Kelsang's statements in fact imply that other traditions do not possess other pure lineages - Venerable Geshe Kelsang, as quoted above, has said the precise opposite, on several occasions. you just want to read them that way, i fear. Atisha's cook (talk) 15:43, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
- I don't see the point of this discussion about what Neil Elliott said or didn't say -- there is no proposal by any editor to put this information in the article, and Elliott's words, accurate or not, are by no means officially representative of the NKT view. (Truthbody (talk) 19:14, 31 May 2009 (UTC))
a suggestion
The purpose of this discussion in relation to improving the article is what, exactly? --Truthsayer62 (talk) 12:00, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
I'd like to suggest that we don't get bogged down in debating doctrinal differences because such things are endless. If Yongteng has suggestions for improving the article, please make them but discussing like this takes time, energy and ultimately doesn't improve the article - Rather, it just creates hostility and bad feeling which makes co-operation between editors more difficult --Truthsayer62 (talk) 12:04, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
- i think we're just trying to establish a basis for unbiased editing. but i agree: doctrinal "debate" here isn't particularly beneficial. Atisha's cook (talk) 15:45, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
Thanks TS62 and welcome back, from me and all your old team mates-its just like the old days! (Ha!) Really, I think your point is a very sensible one (even if I made it myself) The purpose of this page is not to debate doctrinal differences but to ensure the public receive an accurate and objective article about the NKT. If everyone concentrates on that issue we should progress, otherwise it will turn into some sort of E sangha thing-endless partisan rantsYonteng (talk) 19:25, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
SPA: comment
I'm not sure how relevant the scientology stuff is, but one rather obvious parallel is that you're all WP:SPA's and this is bad. Get out more William M. Connolley (talk) 17:45, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
- in my case, you're right - it's the only area in which i feel qualified to add or edit content, to be honest (well - there are a couple of others unrelated to Buddhism, but there's currently no Wiki on those topics, and my knowledge isn't enough really to *initiate* an article...)
- i *am* aware of the potential COI, and i do my best therefore not to promote my own POV to the exclusion of others. having said that, i *do* need to get out more! i might have a go at those other topics after all... Atisha's cook (talk) 19:35, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
Wow, I wish you were that 'nice' to me!Yonteng (talk) 21:30, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
- i'll be a lot nicer when you stop accusing me of dishonesty (sock-puppeting), malice ("cyber-bullying"), sectarianism, fanaticism, etc., etc. Atisha's cook (talk) 13:19, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
Intro
EM OK-Barrett does not say the NKT is controverial for its sole reliance on Kadampa Buddhism so I moved that. I took out the quote also because it smells a bit of 'Were being condemned for being pure'.The Wilson went because the assertion that the only problem is DS is untrue-NKTruth lists multiple allegations. So I took that out and left the NKTruth thing at the end. (You said either at th beginning or the end. I left the NKtruth thing in because it lists the allegations AND responses. I think its now neater.I hope you agree. Have a good dayYonteng (talk) 08:11, 31 May 2009 (UTC) It DOES look a lot tidier!08:21, 31 May 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yonteng (talk • contribs)
- You forget that Wilson is only talking doctrinal issues. He says that, besides the Dorje Shugden practice, all other NKT-IKBU teachings are standard Gelugpa teachings. He makes no statement at all about any allegations. But, this is not the reason I originally included Wilson in the intro: he talks about the importance that GKG's books have to NKT-IKBU practice, which is an important part of the article and so should be summarized in the lead section. Emptymountains (talk) 12:18, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
I believe such info re books should follow in a dedicated section on the study program.As it stands,(Without Wilson) the intro is genrally neutral. Then it points to controversy and says exactly where and how the NKT responds to them-I reckon thats pretty good and pretty neutral. Just checked and indeed it is the perfect place for it since it is a 3PS supporting quote for what is already there)94.192.139.167 (talk) 12:34, 31 May 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.192.139.167 (talk) 12:30, 31 May 2009 (UTC) Just checked and indeed it is the perfect place for it since it is a 3PS supporting quote for what is already there)94.192.139.167 (talk) 12:34, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
- I don't understand what you mean. You say that the Wilson quote "is a 3PS supporting quote for what is already there" in the section on the study programs. What is being said there that doesn't already have a reference? As I mentioned before, there are already a number of references that say the 3 Study Programs based on GKG's books are the distinguishing feature of the NKT-IKBU. Basically, your version of the lead section would mention Gelug history, the controversy/allegations, but nothing about the most important feature of the NKT-IKBU? Emptymountains (talk) 14:55, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
- YT, I think you skipped past my question above. You said that the Wilson quote is wrong in saying that besides DS, all the other teachings of the NKT are standard Gelugpa teachings. If he is wrong, I would like to know what other teachings in the NKT are non-standard? Is there something wrong with the NKT's teachings on refuge, bodhichitta, or emptiness? How about Lamrim, Lonjong, or Mahamudra? Maybe the teachings on the lower realms are incorrect? Again, Wilson is focusing solely on NKT doctrine, which he finds to be in-line with the rest of the Gelugpa tradition (with the exception of the DS debate). But you seem to keep reading other things into it, such as that he is denying that there are non-doctrinal allegations that have been made. In actuality, Wilson doesn't say a word about any non-doctrinal disputes either way. Emptymountains (talk) 19:45, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
I agree that Wilson is well placed in the lead section -- he is just stating the obvious and also mentions the heart of the New Kadampa Tradition, the books. With him in the lead, this paragraph is now reasonably balanced and the lead covers all the essential points. (Truthbody (talk) 13:19, 31 May 2009 (UTC))
This is what I mean by 'corporate editing'- NKT editors working together to promote a faovurable view. Also, AC is on 1RR so TB steps in and does it for him after he is reminded-combined effort The point about Wilson is its simply not true (3PS or not!) There are multiple issues and even NKTruth has the balls to admit that-at least I have the good will to point to NKT responses without listing the criticisms specifically. Trying to dupe Joe Public into believing the only problem is DS by using Wilson is disingenuous. I mention one criticism AND allow the NKTs response to criticisms but you want to insert Wilson to hide things-political editing, If you want to use Wilson in the intro, lets have a section on 'other criticisms of the NKT' shall we??Yonteng (talk) 19:02, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
- Please Yonteng stop trying to provoke aggravation by accusing other editors of "corporate editing"; these personal remarks are tiresome and inaccurate and smack of a conspiracy theory for which you haven't any evidence. Agreeing with another editor doesn't mean we are "corporate editing" -- and in any case there is nothing wrong with showing assent on a talk page!, and Wikipedia encourages consensus. Please stick to the facts in the article, as you have been requested to do many times, and stop these personal attacks. I have been largely away from my computer and am now joining in again, I wasn't asked by anyone to do so, I work on my own except insofar as I join in dicussions with yourself and other editors on this page. As for your other accusation, I am not "trying to dupe" anyone -- all the sources are there now for Joe Public to peruse. Without a doubt, the Dorje Shugden issue is the main and defining criticism levelled at the NKT. Other criticisms are mentioned in the context of New Kadampa Truth. (Truthbody (talk) 19:26, 31 May 2009 (UTC))
I've reverted your change, Yonteng, because there is no reasonable objection to the inclusion of a 3PS. I can only think that your objection is because the intro doesn't scream 'controversy' loud enough for you. The intro already mentions the New Kadampa Truth site and the reply to the controversies, so with this and the Barrett quote, both sides are included and it's neutral. --Truthsayer62 (talk) 19:32, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
- In intro, Barrett says nkt is controversial-NKTruth lists controversies and replies-thats balance. The point is Wilson is incorrect-even NKTruth shows that. To include it in the intro is disingenuous since it is a} untrue (by NKTs admission)b)disingenuous-it can be seen as an attempt to hide the other allegations. I dont see your problem with this.Both sides are included in the intro without it. Maybe we should rephrase it 'While Wilson says....the NKTruth site refers to multiple controversial allegations' That would include W but it probably wouldnt suit you.In the end, the point is, even if W is 3PS it is confirmed to be inaccurate by the NKTs own resource. I can see no reason for invluding it other than for it to act as a smokescreen to wider allegation94.192.139.167 (talk) 20:27, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
- BTW EM you claim I said 'the Wilson quote is wrong in saying that besides DS, all the other teachings of the NKT are standard Gelugpa teachings.' No, my point is that Wilson says other than the DS conflict, everything else is kosher whereas there are multiple controversies. Most NKT Dharma is obviously standard Gelug fayre94.192.139.167 (talk) 20:32, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
- That "Most NKT Dharma is obviously standard Gelug fayre" is all Wilson is saying. Other than the doctrinal dispute over Dorje Shugden, there are no other doctrinal disputes. Emptymountains (talk) 23:27, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
- Yonteng - i can't keep up with you! you bring something up, it gets refuted, then you say we shouldn't be discussing it in the first place. you ask for balance, but scream when balancing data are added. you tell me i'm an unreasonable fanatic, but unlike me Emptymountains and Truthbody are reasonable, and then as soon as there's any consensus shown you start accusing everyone who disagrees with you of "corporate editing" (take a look back over this Talk page - does it really look like all this lot agree with me and all my comments/edits?!)
- Wilson's quote obfuscates nothing. doctrinally, there simply is *no* major difference from other Gelugpa traditions except the Dorje Shugden issue - and that's all he says. it's a perfectly accurate, and well-placed bit of info. i think the only reason you don't like it is because it's just not derogatory enough for you. well, sorry: you're going to have to accept that this article is never going to reflect your own POV perfectly or exclusively. welcome to Wikipedia. Atisha's cook (talk) 21:22, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
- also, since you reminded me of our 1RR probation (and thanks, btw - i had actually forgotten about that), it's only fair to point out to you that it's no good making "anonymous" reversions to try to get around it: your IP is logged and an Admin can easily see that it's you, i believe. using a mate's connection is frowned on too, and where it's obvious, it often leads to a slap (no, i' haven't ever done this, before you ask!) Atisha's cook (talk) 21:26, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
Well done TB Wilson looks much better there.Wish id done it myself but i think we know what wouldve happened. EM 'obfuscates' You really DO need to get out more!Yonteng (talk) 21:31, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
BTW it is worth noting how much struggle there has been just over this one quote and how long this has taken, as well as how its been exactly the same old team that Kt66 fought with for so long.FYI I am happy with the intro now. Now for para 2..............Ha!AC What about needlepoint? Or makrame?;)Yonteng (talk) 21:35, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
- Yonteng - you realise you've made 4 reverts to this page over the last few hours, despite our 1RR probation, and despite demonstrating clearly that you were aware of our probation by reminding me about it? and that you've continued to make unsubstantiated allegations against other editors, oh bringer of balance? keep this up and i'll do something i never normally do ('cos i'm usually some way out of line myself...): i'll report you for it.Atisha's cook (talk) 21:44, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
Hi all! Sorry for not participating so long. Seems like you made a lot of progress :)) Just wanted to say that i like the intro pretty much now as well. Only problem i still see is that the controversy/allegations/refutations issue (other than doctrinal/Dorje Shugden) is "outsourced" to the newkadampatruth site. It's probably better than not mentioning them at all - and i personally think that it is in fact quite a good solution to point to this site - but it sure enough isn't quite in accordance with WP:RS and also not with WP:INTRO (intro supposed to be summary of article) Anyway...keep up the good work! Maybe i'll manage to contribute a bit myself again... for a start i'm going to put quotation marks around "systematic path to enlightenment" - not because i'd doubt that the books or the NKT as a whole present a full path, but because i think it is inappropriate for an encyclopledic article to make such a claim (hope you agree?). Andi 3ö (talk) 22:47, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
- AC Im sure WMC is watching and I made him aware of NKT editors x 4 capacity to RV 8 times before sanctions as compared to my 1! Maybe that has something to do with it.Embroidery?Yonteng (talk) 07:57, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
- Andi, i fully agree that the claim should be placed in speech marks-it is straight from an NKT leaflet after all. Moreover, I think I would preceed it with 'The NKT claims...' since it is a statement from the NKT perspective; all of the Tibetan systems could make the same statement, though there is a very important distinction between the Tibetan system and the NKT one. In the Tibetan traditions, the fully qualified enlightened/experienced teacher prescribes the appropriate methods to the individual disciple in a one to one setting. In the NKT, the exaggerated growth of the organisation now means it is virtually impossible to develop a personal relationship with the teacher in the 'guru-disciple' context (unless the ridiculous and arrogant claim that they have started churning out 'qualified' lamas is going to be made-to be a qualified lama takes a long, long time). The NKT path of graduated study and meditation is therefore more akin to buying clothes 'off the peg' rather than the 'tailored' experience one finds in the Tibetan tradition. NKT teachings may be close in appearance to Gelug one but this central aspect of the teaching, the guru-disciple relationship, is noteable by its absence for the majority of NKT studentsYonteng (talk) 10:18, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
- um, no - it's in quotation marks because it's a direct quote from a 3PS.
- and "the guru-disciple relationship, is noteable by its absence for the majority of NKT students". ??? that's a new one... Atisha's cook (talk) 11:18, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
Ok AC, ' If youre absolutely certain that there are no references to a 'systematic path to enlightenment' (Maybe 'graduated path to enlightenment' [Tib Lam Rim] whats the difference?) in NKT promotional materials,fine. Otherwise, you just validated it as a 3PS so it should go in quotes as Andi suggests anyway Again, tell us if you will how often the majority of NKT students get to sit down with KG on a one to one level and talk about their practice, as is common in Tibetan traditions. Please enlighten us (systematically;)BTW its OM, not UmYonteng (talk) 11:58, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
- I think that AC is absolutely certain that Wilson is not quoting any promotional literature; it is his own evaluation. While Andi had put quotes around some of the material taken from Wilson, actually all of it is directly quoted from Wilson, so it should all appear in quotes--none of it is WP's own wording. Emptymountains (talk) 12:18, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
- i've no idea what you're on about, Yonteng. Emptymountains is right: it's quoting Wilson directly, and i had already moved the quotation mark (without altering the wording) to include more. i thought Andi was quite right to add this punctuation in the first place.
- as for your understanding of the Guru-student relationship... ok - i don't think this point of doctrine is a valid topic for discussion here. alls i was saying is that i think you'll find that "the majority" of NKT-IKBU students would be extremely surprised to hear that this relatiuonship is absent for them! certainly all those i know would be. but then i only know a couple of hundred or so, whereas you seem to be familiar with the majority, which must run to several thousands. Atisha's cook (talk) 12:36, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
Well, try Googling 'systematic' and 'kadampa' and then tell me to what extent the claim to sytematization (a quality of all Tib traditions) does not form part of NKT propaganda-I found over a 1000 references,probably the same refences Wilson read. As to'"the majority" of NKT-IKBU students would be extremely surprised to hear that this relatiuonship is absent for them!' because "the majority" have no experience of the nature of the guru-disciple relationship as Tibetans and Westerners experienced/experience it in the Tibetan traditions. You know what I mean, the kind of relationship Dromtonpa had with Atisha, or Trijang with Pabongka. According to some, what you often get in the NKT is some wrote learned kid with very little experience of life or dharma who, nevertheless, has 'faith and confidence' in KG after having seen him once or twice across a crowded shrineroom (if that) but is avidly reading ALL his books.BIG difference and hardly 'traditional Gelug Buddhism'BTWYonteng (talk) 12:53, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
- A wise man once said, "The purpose of this page is not to debate doctrinal differences but to ensure the public receive an accurate and objective article about the NKT. If everyone concentrates on that issue we should progress, otherwise it will turn into some sort of E sangha thing-endless partisan rants." Emptymountains (talk) 13:04, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
Maybe we can put the thing about the lack of guru-disciple relations in the Study Program section then?? Thanks for the compliment BTW;) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yonteng (talk • contribs) 13:06, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
- "Maybe we can put the thing about the lack of guru-disciple relations in the Study Program section then?" an interesting non-sequitur, but a bad idea, i feel, because we'd then have to add a similar bit to the wikis of most other major spiritual Teachers who have thousands of disciples, such as the Dalai Lama, for example.
- anyway: sorry - Emptymountains is right (again!); i'll stop with the doctrinal debate now. if you also don't want any more, Yonteng, please stop bringing these silly things up in the first place! Atisha's cook (talk) 13:29, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
"Most other major spiritual Teachers who have thousands of disciples, such as the Dalai Lama" Yeah Most of those people who call the Dalal Lama theie guru' nowadays have never met him either,your right, the perfect environment for spiritual development-What a sad imitation of the Dharma we have here in the WestYonteng (talk) 14:18, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
- Actually, that is just what I am talking about. This whole idea that the majority of NKT followers OR the DLs can claim to be experiencing the Dharma in a genuine and authentic fashion sucks-The very hear of Tibetan Mahayana is the guru disciple relationship. Setting aside the fact that many of the DLs disciples are using Buddhism as some sort of therapy, the truth is only a tiny percentage of even the genuine ones can possibly claim to have anything resembling a proper relationship with him. Ditto the NKT. It is therefore incorrect to liken NKT to Dharma to traditional Gelug since central to that was a relationship that no longer exists for the majority-ditto the DL and the vast majority of his followers. Just because it applies to the DL doesnt make it alright. yet another effect of globalization I suppose-Just a thought,
though i not you instantly lept to the conclusion that I wasnt including the DL-Cant think why; can you?Yonteng (talk) 14:37, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
Anyone get the feeling this talk page has turned into somebody's blog? I note that at the top of this talk page it says, "This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject." Emptymountains (talk) 14:46, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
- When all else fails, result to ad homs!Stop being sillyYonteng (talk) 16:43, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
- NB It also says 'Be polite' and 'Avoid Personal AttacksYonteng (talk) 20:19, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
Teachers section Cozort quote
Dear Emptymountains, i don't think we should include this quote and certainly not at the beginning of the section. The section has to begin with stating the most important/basic facts: who are the teachers, how are they qualified/selected. I think the Cozort quote would fit into the kind of discussion AC and YT are having above. In the article it feels a bit like a talking point in a debate ("Western vs. Tibetan teachers") that is not even present (and should not imho). In abscence of that debate i don't think there is any imperative need to sort of preemptively justify the NKT's teachers policy with this quote, and, as i said, certainly not in the beginning of the section. Andi 3ö (talk) 15:22, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
Lopez quote
I moved the Lopez quote on the significance of the name new KADAMPA trad to the section on the name Kadampa. EM RVd-no reason given. Pls xpl? Why is it not more relevant here?Yonteng (talk) 13:44, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- YT, you moved the quote, only saying that it is "More appropriate/relevant here." How so?
- It belongs in either one of two sections: Meaning of the word Kadampa ...or... New Kadampa Tradition and Gelugpa Tradition. The first section just explains the word kadampa (i.e., ka-dam-pa), while the second explains the name New Kadampa Tradition. In other words, the first section just focues on the word's etymology, so that discussion of the possible motive behind choosing the name of GKG's organization could be saved for the Separation from Contemporary Tibetan Buddhism section.
- In order to be moved to the Meaning of the word Kadampa section, you would have to show how the Lopez quote helps us to understand the meaning of the word kadampa better. Is his quote not more about the meaning of the name New Kadampa Tradition and what statement this makes about the Gelugpa Tradition? Hence, it belongs in the New Kadampa Tradition and Gelugpa Tradition section. Emptymountains (talk) 13:44, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- For me this is not an easy question. I agree, in the structure as it is right now (following your description of the purpose of the two sections) the Lopez quote fits much better in the "Seperation..." section. Question is, if the structure you created really is the most appropriate. Two weeks ago or so you created "Seperation from..." and moved all of the material concerning the "New" in "New Kadampa Tradition" to that section. You then renamed the Section "The meaning of the name 'New Kadampa Tradition'" to "The meaning of the word "Kadampa". In that way, the more "controversial" material is moved way down in the article, while the "kadampa" section is left at a very prominent place. I guess that is what Yonteng wants to balance with moving the quote. The NKT sees itself as direct successor/countiunuation of the Kadampas. "Critics" don't. Or, put more simply: one view is: "We are Kadampas" the other view is: "No you are not! You are only using their name." Giving the explanation of the word "Kadampa" such a prominent place (and leaving out the "new" part) implicitly conveys the first point of view. Not sure how to proceed, but simply moving the Lopez quote is not a good soulution imho. Andi 3ö (talk) 14:50, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- That's just the thing. Gelugpas are 'New Kadampas' also. The terms are synonymous. I'd like to meet a so-called Gelugpa who would say, "I am not a Kadampa." For example, check out the name of this FPMT Center: [8]. Are they not Kadampas, or are they just using "their name"?
- Actually, when you say that one view is "We are Kadampas," and that the other view is: "No you are not! You are only using their name," who is the they in "their name" referring to? Emptymountains (talk) 15:03, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- Interesting point! BTW: Not to be misunderstood: I like the concept of the "Seperation" section very much. Having that section is a very big improvement and i also like the name; probably as "neutral" as we can get. Just not sure if in this particular case the separation of the material is totally appropriate...will have to think about it some more i guess.... Andi 3ö (talk) 15:10, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- The critics quote from the BBC makes no sense. If the NKT is just using "their name," I would like to know: who are the real Kadampas? Was not Je Tsongkhapa a Kadampa? Therefore, why are not his followers allowed to call themselves Kadampas?
- P.S. I would also like to meet an NKT practitioner who would say, "I am not a Gelugpa." After all, this is what is taught in Heart Jewel, Joyful Path, and Great Treasury of Merit.
- I can only speak from my own experience here. In the (Gelug) Teachings i have heard the word Kadampa refers to those early Tibetan masters following Atisha and his disciple Dromtönpa that are best known for introducing Lamrim and Lojong teachings to Tibet. I am not sure if many (non-NKT) Gelugpas would refer to themselves as "Kadampas". In the teachings i heard, the old Kadampa masters where often refered to as examples of especially purely practicing, kind of "hardcore", "bad-ass", extraordinarily accomplished masters. My feeling (and i repeat, this is only my feeling from my personal experience with some Gelug teachers and teachings) is that many Gelugpas would hesitate calling themselves Kadampas because they wouldn't want to compare themselves to those accomplished masters. Anyway, of course you are right, that Je Tsongkhapa called the tradition "the new Kadam", which is now Gelug. You could therefore argue that both terms are synonymous, but at least i personally can't recall any of my teachers using that term. Also if they are synonymous, wouldn't that make the name of the NKT even more contoversial? Wouldn't it then say: "We are the Gelug school" which of course could be considered slightly presumptuous. On the other hand again, there are some other names that could be considered at least equally presumptuous then, like "Federation for the Preservation of the MAHAYANA Tradition" e.g. ;) Andi 3ö (talk) 16:43, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- In Liberation in the Palm of Your Hand, Je Phabongkhapa says "My precious guru has said time and time again that this is the supreme distinguishing feature of the teachings of the old Kadampas and of us New Kadamps" (p. 19). And, "Even so, the original Kadampas and we neo-Kadampas..." (p. 71), just to name a couple. And, what about the Kadam Emanation Scripture, through which we have the uncommon Mahamudra, Lama Chopa, and Ganden Lhagyema practices? Emptymountains (talk) 17:41, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm not sure i agree, Andi. i think the structure Emptymountains has been shaping has given a far greater clarity and more lucid sequence of the introduction of data and concepts to the article than it had previously, though there's more to be done. i don't see it in terms of promoting or hiding any view, controversial or otherwise - it's simply factual and clear, which will help the general reader gain a good understanding of the subject. i'm uncomfortable with the idea of promotion/burying of controversy or of individual POVs: this is why i'm objecting to much of Yonteng's antics. surely the point about the Lopez quote is that it gives siome background to the name "New Kadampa Tradition", so, as you say, it should remain in the 'New Kadampa Tradition and Gelugpa Tradition' para.
as for whether that para. needs to be moved further up the article: well this is where those who have a strong POV concerning "controversy" are going to need to validate their arguments, i think. to my mind, and the mind of Joe Public who holds no view on the Dalai Lama/Dorje Shugden issue, the relationship between the New Kadampa Tradition and the Tibetan Gelugpa Tradition will be of some interest, surely, but not one of the most important or prominent issues. Atisha's cook (talk) 15:08, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- Agree on the general structure (see above comment, wrote it at the same time you were writing yours :)). Not sure though about the relevance of the relationship to H.H. the Dalai Lama, to "mainstream" Gelugpa or Tibetan Buddhism as a whole. I think it might be quite important to many people interested in (Tibetan) Buddhism. Most peoples's first contact with Buddhism in the west somehow involves H.H. i guess. They either see "Seven years in Tibet" or see him in the news, or at some point read one of his books. He IS the most prominent figure of Buddhism and is often even associated with Buddhism as a whole. Andi 3ö (talk) 15:55, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
seeing as we're in agreement re. the position of the Lopez quote, i'll move it back. we can continue to discuss the relative positions of the sections, if there's more to say on it? Atisha's cook (talk) 15:14, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- I think Andi's quote about burying the Lopez further down in the article is relevant-I believe this may be a reason behind the revert. My point is, if we are going to refer to why the NKT choose to call themselves kadampas, we should immediately know why those outside the NKt think that claim is controversial. I believe my position is therefore more appropriate.
- As for 'Gelugpas are 'New Kadampas' also. The terms are synonymous. I'd like to meet a so-called Gelugpa who would say, "I am not a Kadampa."' How many Gelugpas do you know who would happily agree to being called followers of the New Kadampa?-not many. The terms are not synonymous in a contemporary context, tho they may have been previously Few would deny being kadampas, many would reject being called 'new' because of present implications PS AGAIN big struggle over tiny critical quote.Why????Yonteng (talk) 16:14, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- The quote was not moved to "bury" it. There was already a discussion in the Separation from Contemporary Tibetan Buddhism section concerning the name New Kadampa. All I did was merge them together.
- I find the Lopez and related quotes to be interesting speculation, but there is one vital piece of evidence missing to support their interpretation: GKG's disavowel of the name Gelugpa. In GKG's writings and interviews, the terms Gelugpa and New Kadampa are used synonymously. In short, anyone who is a follower of Je Tsongkhapa's tradition can legitimately call themsevles a "New Kadampa." That's where the word new comes from: it is not GKG's invented terminology. So, anyone who is happily following Je Tsongkhapa's tradition should happily call themselves "New Kadampas," although they might clarify that they are not part of the NKT-IKBU. The NKT-IKBU does not have a monopoly on the name New Kadampa; that name belongs to all Gelugpas. Emptymountains (talk) 16:51, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
EM The FPMTs Kadampa Centre looks like it was founded before the NKT became the international concern it is today (1992)Yonteng (talk) 16:29, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- AC-I am not surprised thay you agree that the controversial aspect of the name should be placed so far down the article. Please, cease using tactics like 'Yonteng's antics' to belittle and demean. It is unbecoming generally and in someone who calls themselves a Buddhist particularly. it is also rudeYonteng (talk) 16:42, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- I never used those words. Emptymountains (talk) 16:51, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- Your darned right, you always try to use appropriate language, bless you94.192.139.167 (talk) 17:37, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- 'So, anyone who is happily following Je Tsongkhapa's tradition should happily call themselves "New Kadampas," although they might clarify that they are not part of the NKT-IKBU.' Uh? Yes, Im a New Kadampa, but Im not a follower of the new Kadampa Tradition. Yeah, that sounds sensible (not)As for: 'The NKT-IKBU does not have a monopoly on the name New Kadampa; that name belongs to all Gelugpas.' You miss the point-no Gelugpa would want to use that name because of the contemporary implications. Why, because the name is politically loaded. So someone comes to the article wondering why and gets told..........zilch. If it is appropriate to place the NKTs claim to the name in such a prominent position in the article, it is equally appropriate that Lopez's quote (which voices an opinion held widely outside the NKT) recieve equal prominence. Its dissavowal, BTW94.192.139.167 (talk) 17:44, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- Gets told "zilch"? I think you don't give readers enough credit; I certainly hope people aren't that fickle. Anyway, if in the end the consensus is to move the Lopez quote back up, then everything related to it needs to get moved back up. Keep it all together. Emptymountains (talk) 17:52, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- Is the word Kadampa (without the "New") also politically loaded, in your opinion? Emptymountains (talk) 17:53, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- It didnt used to be. Recently I heard of a lama visiting the US who intended to give an inititation from the Kadam lineage. When the people who were organising the visit asked him what he intended to give and he told them, they asked him if he might consider giving something else as the name 'Kadampa' might give the group a bad name. I believe the word Kadam WAS non controversial. Times change. I would like to nominate Andi to make the decision on this since he is clearly neutral and understands both viewsYonteng (talk) 18:26, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- How sad that 'Kadampa', a word that symbolizes a pure practitioner who is putting all of Buddha's teachings into practice. could be considered in any way negative. If this isn't an indication of the crazy, degenerate times we live in, I don't know what is --Truthsayer62 (talk) 20:13, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- i agree. a heartbreaking sign of the times. happily, that's by no means a majority view, just one very wrong view. the explanation of the term in this article can definitely help to clarify such misunderstanding. Atisha's cook (talk) 20:45, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- Thats my point. You seem to think this article is about convincing people of the 'right' viewpoint on the NKT issue. Its actually about providing as many of the different facts and leaving people to make up their own mind. That is why I think Lopez should be back up top, Because you seem to think that the 'majority' view is that everything is rosey (classic insider misconception BTW) whereas lots know about NKT only BECAUSE of the controversy so we just need to mention Lopez as an afterthought. Try Googling New K etc both the second and third sites mention controversy (No 2 BBC even uses the 'c' word, and no.3 is newkadampa.com)So, the balanced way to present things is by providing the insider view and the outside view in a manner that reflects the general overall view. To hide Lopez away at the bottom of the article is deceptively hiding a harsh reality (sure its only an opinion but its a reality-samsara is only a subjective vision after all)I again request that we accept neutral Andi's ajudication on this-he has been very reasonable so farYonteng (talk) 21:32, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
The "New Kadampa Tradition and Gelugpa Tradition" section will really seem 'gutted' if we move the Lopez and related explanatory material out of that section: Emptymountains (talk) 22:08, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
According to the NKT-IKBU, it is Tibetan in its antecedents and follows the teachings of the historic, "Old" Kadampa and the "New Kadam" Tradition of Je Tsongkhapa, the latter of which became the Gelug school of Tibetan Buddhism.[85]
Critics on the other hand characterize the NKT-IKBU as "a breakaway movement and argue that the New Kadampa Tradition, as it is known today, is not part of the ancient Kadampa Tradition but a split from the [contemporary] Gelug school."[86]
Of the words, "New Kadampa Tradition," James Belither states that the "word 'New' is used not to imply that it is newly created, but is a fresh presentation of Buddhadharma in a form and manner that is appropriate to the needs and conditions of the modern world."[87]
As explained above, Je Tsongkhapa himself, founder of the Gelug school, referred to his monastic order as "the New Kadam"[88] (Tib. Kadam Sarpa).[89] The term Gelug came into use only after his death.[90] In creating a new synthesis of Buddhist doctrine, ethics and practice, Je Tsongkhapa endeavored "to rid Tibetan [Buddhism] of its pre-Buddhist shamanic elements,"[91] and the NKT-IKBU sees itself as continuing to keep Tsongkhapa's unique form of Buddhism free of non-Buddhist elements.[92]
According to Lopez, "For Kelsang Gyatso to call his group the New Kadampa Tradition, therefore, is ideologically charged, implying as it does that he and his followers represent the tradition of the founder, Tsong kha pa, more authentically than the Geluk establishment and the Dalai Lama himself."[93] In short, Waterhouse says that "the early Gelugpa legacy is one which the NKT wishes to emulate" and that the name of the organization itself makes a statement about its "perceived roots within the 'pure' transmission of [Atisha's] Indian Buddhism into Tibet."[94]When asked about the relationship between the NKT-IKBU and the Gelug tradition, Geshe Kelsang explained:
“ We are pure Gelugpas. The name Gelugpa doesn't matter, but we believe we are following the pure tradition of Je Tsongkhapa. We are studying and practicing Lama Tsongkhapa's teachings and taking as our example what the ancient Kadampa lamas and geshes did. All the books that I have written are commentaries on Lama Tsongkhapa's teachings. We try our best to follow the example of the ancient Kadampa Tradition and use the name Kadampa to remind people to practice purely.[95] ” According to James Belither, former Secretary of the NKT-IKBU:
Geshe Kelsang first introduced the title 'New Kadampa Tradition' to give the centres under his spiritual direction a distinct identity within the wider Buddhist world. Although the Gelugpas were sometimes referred to as new Kadampas, the name New Kadampa Tradition had never been used previously in a formal sense. Nevertheless, by using this title Geshe Kelsang is making it clear that practitioners of this tradition are principally following the teachings and example of Je Tsongkhapa.... Furthermore, by using the title 'Kadampa', Geshe Kelsang encourages his disciples to follow the perfect example of simplicity and purity of practice shown by the Kadampa Geshes.[96]
I'm thinking one possible solution would be to leave the "New Kadampa Tradition and Gelugpa Tradition" section as it is and instead of moving the Lopez quote (or even more material) adding a sentence in our own words to the name section that briefly references the potentially controversial/ideologically charged nature of the name and points to the section below for more info on that. I think overall it's the right approach to leave the biggest share of the article to the NKT practitioners' own views as is (and should be imho) done with every other article about religuous groups/faiths (had that discussion extensively at the "Buddhism" article). Although controversial aspects/opposing views should of course be mentioned, i don't think it's necessary to always go into the details right on the spot. I think the discussion about the name is indeed best treated in the context of the relationship to other traditions because only in that context it is potentially controversial. I already have an idea of how the sentence to be introduced to the name section could look like, but i will have to think about it thoroughly again. Now i'm a bit tired... btw, thanks Yonteng for your confidence in my ability to be "neutral"! ...not sure if the others share your view though...i can only say i'm trying very hard :) Andi 3ö (talk) 00:05, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
- then, in accord with what Andi says, i will move JUST the Lopez quote up, and, in accord with Ems suggestion, leave much of the other stuff where it is.Andi can then suggest his short insert when he's rested.Yonteng (talk) 07:55, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
- This is not what Andi said at all. Please re-read his first sentence. You just did the exact opposite. Emptymountains (talk) 08:08, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
- in general, i agree with your idea about how to organise this, Andi - though i'm not completely convinced of the "controversial" nature of the term 'Kadampa'! despite Yonteng's misunderstanding, my intention isn't to promote a "right" or "insider" view - it's to reflect an accurate portrayal of the article's subect. so where there *is* a wrong conception about some aspect of the subject, then i think it should be mentioned *provided that its a sufficiently widely-held misconception*. as i said, at this point i'm not convinced that there's sufficient controversy about the name 'Kadampa' to merit the inclusion of a mention here, but that's just my view and if sufficient others feel that it *is* worth a mention, then i accept. Atisha's cook (talk) 08:33, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
EM Please ask Andi if this move is alright,if you wish to report me for 3RR. feel free to do so, though i am not aware of having acted in that fashion and have pointed out my reason for moving things above-I have not 'reverted' anything.i have simply moved the quote to where I think was suggested.I included the waterhouse because it continues on from Lopez. If Andi disagrees, please allow him to move it where he sees fit after explaining why.So far, I have suggested two quotes aand faced MONTHS of opposition. AC, thank you for agreeing to abide by Andi's view on this. I do too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yonteng (talk • contribs) 09:30, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
- You said you were going to follow Andi's judgment. So, why did you move the quote when Andi explicitly said he was not going to move the quote? He said he was going to add a sentence in his own words that directed the reader to the section where the Lopez et al. quotes already were. He said to give him a chance to do this. Emptymountains (talk) 12:17, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
I am afraid i may have misread his words. However, I think writing something SHORT which points to the controversial usage of the name might be difficult; the Lopez quote itself seems succinct enough.However, I am happy to wait for his judgement. I would remind you however of the unbelievably lengthy debate over two short passages that are really relevant. This hostility (including the threats of reporting) speaks reams. NKT editors are clearly desperate to hide any criticism of the group and consider such criticism to be a 'minority' view. Surely the DL has many more followers than the NKT/WSS and amongst these many know of the NKT (Look at the most popular Google sites). Therefore, such an assumption is misinformed. Also, i cannot agree with Andi that the people who write the article should be insiders. Look at the banning of Scientology editors from the SC article. Would catholics want to put anything in their page about long term widespread sexual abuse? No, WP should seem academic at least. Academics must be objectiveYonteng (talk) 12:37, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
- While you also moved the explanatory material that came after Lopez, you neglected to move the explanatory material that comes before Lopez. Otherwise, the "therefore" in the Lopez sentence makes no sense.
- But, if you do move the other explanatory material, you effectively gut the section you moved everything from, as was shown would happen above in the quotation box with the strikethrough.
- P.S. Giving someone an opportunity to follow consensus and thereby undo their 3RR is not hostility. This would have been the second time I merely warned you about having done 3RR, instead of just reporting you for it. Why would I do that if I was simply out to get you? Emptymountains (talk) 13:04, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
- Sorry guys. Busy irl right now. Will hopefully make it in the late evening. Regarding my opinion that the article should be mainly about NKT practitioners' views doesn't mean that i think the article should be written by them. Idealy those views should be taken from 3rd party sources of course. I just wanted to say that any article about a faith-based group should give preference to the beliefs of the group itself and not what other people think about their beliefs or practices. In the article about Buddhism e.g. biggest prominence should be given to what Buddhists think Buddha did and taught and not on what historians or even people of other faiths think what he actually did or what his teachings meant. Andi 3ö (talk) 13:00, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
- ^ The New Believers: A Survey of Sects, Cults and Alternative Religions, David Barett p.310
- ^ a b Cite error: The named reference
Bunting
was invoked but never defined (see the help page). - ^ Kay pages 38,83; The Guardian, July 6, 1996 [9], Newsweek, April 28, 1997 [10]
- ^ New Kadampa Survivors, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/newkadampasurvivors
- ^ see CNN interactive, [11]
- ^ "Two Sides of the Same God", by Donald S. Lopez, Jr., Tricycle Magazine, Spring 1998
- ^ Waterhouse 2000, Oliver Freiberger, Department for the Study of Religion University of Bayreuth, Germany [12], Kay page 213
- ^ a b Buddhist Magazine "Ursache und Wirkung" No. 56, 2006, Austria
- ^ von Brück, Michael (1999). Religion und Politik im Tibetischen Buddhismus, page 159. München: Kösel Verlag. ISBN 3-466-20445-3 and Donald S. Lopez, Jr., Prisoners of Shangri-La, ISBN 0-226-49310-5, University of Chicago Press, page 195
- ^ Dagom Gaden Tensung Ling - Our Purpose (Dorje Shugden statement)[13]
- ^ Biography of Kyabje Dagom Rinpoche by Geshe Jangsem[14]
- ^ Interview with Trijang Rinpoche by Dario Tesoroni, in 2001[15]
- ^ A Brief History Of Opposition To Shugden by The Dolgyal Research Committee, TGIE, [16]
- ^ "A Spirit of the XVII Secolo", Raimondo Bultrini, Dzogchen Community published in Mirror, January 2006
- ^ Open letter from Geshe Kelsang Gyatso to Wesley Pruden, Editor in Chief, The Washington Times [17]
- ^ Geshe Kelsang Gyatso Summer Festival 2006, Dorje Shugden, [18]
- ^ a b Bluck 2006 : 148
- ^ An Interview With Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso discusses Dorje Shugden as a benevolent protector god. Spring 1998. Tricycle
- ^ Bluck, Robert (2006). British Buddhism Teachings, Practice and Development. RoutledgeCurzon, page 150/151, ISBN 0-415-39515-1
- ^ The Complete Works of Atisa Sri Dipamkara Jnana, Jo-Bo-Rje by Atisa, Richard Sherburne (2000), page 123
- ^ http://kadampa.org/Modern_Kadampa_Buddhism.pdf
- ^ www.kadampa.org [19]
- ^ Official Kadampa Website, Kadampa Buddhism at [20]
- ^ BBC Website http://bbc.co.uk
- ^ Official Kadampa Website, Kadampa Buddhism at [21]
- ^ Clarke, Peter Bernard. New Religions in Global Perspective, page 92, ISBN 0-415-25748-4, Routledge 2006
- ^ http://www.newkadampatruth.org/internalrules.php
- ^ Clarke, Peter Bernard. New Religions in Global Perspective, page 92, ISBN 0-415-25748-4, Routledge 2006
- ^ http://newkadampatradition.wordpress.com/2008/08/05/geshe-kelsangs-retreat-in-india/
- ^ a b c d e David N. Kay: Tibetan and Zen Buddhism in Britain: Transplantation, Development and Adaptation, London and New York, pages 55, 56
- ^ Kay page 56; The Manjushri Institute charity registration number: 271873, Trust Deed, July 1976, 1
- ^ Bluck 2006: 129
- ^ Kay, see note on page 232
- ^ Kay page 53 and 77
- ^ http://www.kadampa.org/en/centers
- ^ a b Kay page 78
- ^ The New Kadampa Tradition, charity registration number: 2758093, October 1992 designed to study and experience Geshe Kelsang's presentation of Buddhism (see page 233 of Kay's research)
- ^ Kay pages 61,62,63,64
- ^ Daniel Cozort, The Making of Western Lama in "Buddhism in the Modern World", ISBN 0-19-514698-0, page 234
- ^ The New Kadampa Tradition - International Kadampa Buddhist Union | The New Kadampa Tradition (NKT)
- ^ a b c Modern Day Kadampas - published by the NKT [22] Cite error: The named reference "mdk" was defined multiple times with different content (see the help page).
- ^ Kay pages 88,89
- ^ http://www.newkadampatruth.org/geshekelsanggyatso.php#7
- ^ Australian Sangha Association statement, 21 July 2008, http://info-buddhismus.de/Australian_Sangha_Association_Statement.html
- ^ Waterhouse 1997: 174
- ^ The Ordination Handbook of the New Kadampa Tradition
- ^ Maha-parinibbana Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html
- ^ Venerable K. Sri Dhammananda Maha Thera, What is Vinaya, http://mail.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/whatbudbeliev/148.htm
- ^ The Bodhisattva Vow Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, Tharpa Publications.
- ^ The Ordination Handbook of the New Kadampa Tradition
- ^ The Ordination Handbook of the New Kadampa Tradition
- ^ (Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, The Ordination Handbook)
- ^ Australian Sangha Association statement, 21 July 2008, http://info-buddhismus.de/Australian_Sangha_Association_Statement.html
- ^ The Complete Works of Atisa Sri Dipamkara Jnana, Jo-Bo-Rje by Atisa, Richard Sherburne (2000), page 123
- ^ Geshe Kelsang Gyatso - the Ordination Handbook
- ^ www.kadampa.org [23]
- ^ Joyful Path of Good Fortune (p. 622)
- ^ An Interview With Geshe Kelsang Gyatso by Donald S. Lopez, Jr.; Geshe Kelsang Gyatso discusses Dorje Shugden as a benevolent protector god, Tricycle Magazine, Spring 1998, Vol. 7 No. 3
- ^ Official Kadampa Website at [24]
- ^ Official Kadampa Website at [25]
- ^ Joyful Path of Good Fortune (p. 622)
- ^ Gyatso, Kelsang: 2002; Clear Light of Bliss, page 294
- ^ Official Kadampa Website at [26], [27]
- ^ Official Kadampa Website at [28], 12/02/08
- ^ Belither, 1997:7—8, see also Bluck
- ^ see CNN interactive, [29]
- ^ "Two Sides of the Same God", by Donald S. Lopez, Jr., Tricycle Magazine, Spring 1998
- ^ The New Believers: A Survey of Sects, Cults and Alternative Religions, David Barett p.310
- ^ Bunting, Madeleine (1996). Special Report - Shadow boxing on the path to Nirvana, The Guardian - London, [30]
- ^ Bluck, Robert (2006). British Buddhism Teachings, Practice and Development. RoutledgeCurzon, ISBN 0-415-39515-1
- ^ Kay : 2004, p82
- ^ Bluck, Robert (2006). British Buddhism Teachings, Practice and Development. RoutledgeCurzon, page 150/151, ISBN 0-415-39515-1
- ^ http://kadampa.org/Modern_Kadampa_Buddhism.pdf
- ^ The New Kadampa Tradition - International Kadampa Buddhist Union | The New Kadampa Tradition (NKT)
- ^ Bluck, Robert (2006). British Buddhism Teachings, Practice and Development. RoutledgeCurzon, ISBN 0-415-39515-1
- ^ Bluck, Robert (2006). British Buddhism Teachings, Practice and Development. RoutledgeCurzon, ISBN 0-415-39515-1
- ^ BBC (bbc.co.uk), The New Kadampa Tradition, http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/buddhism/subdivisions/kadampa.shtml
- ^ www.kadampa.org [31]
- ^ a b Waterhouse, Helen (2001). Representing western Buddhism: a United Kingdom focus. In: From Sacred Text to Internet. Religion today: tradition, modernity and change series . Ashgate Publishing Company, pp. 117–160.
- ^ Official Kadampa Website, Kadampa Buddhism at [32]
- ^ Clarke, Peter Bernard. New Religions in Global Perspective, page 92, ISBN 0-415-25748-4, Routledge 2006
- ^ www.kadampa.org [33]
- ^ Official Kadampa Website, Kadampa Buddhism at [34]
- ^ Clarke, Peter Bernard. New Religions in Global Perspective, page 92, ISBN 0-415-25748-4, Routledge 2006
- ^ Belither, James. Modern Day Kadampas: The History and Development of the New Kadampa Tradition. retrieved 2008-12-07.
- ^ The New Kadampa Tradition. BBC. retrieved 2008-12-08.
- ^ Belither, James. Modern Day Kadampas: The History and Development of the New Kadampa Tradition. retrieved 2008-12-07.
- ^ Cozort, Daniel (2003). The Making of the Western Lama. Quoted in Heine, S., & Prebish, C. S. (2003). Buddhism in the modern world: Adaptations of an ancient tradition. New York: Oxford University Press. p. 230.
- ^ An Interview With Geshe Kelsang Gyatso by Donald S. Lopez, Jr. Tricycle Magazine, Spring 1998, Vol. 7 No. 3. p. 74
- ^ Lopez, Donald S. (1998). Prisoners of Shangri-La: Tibetan Buddhism and the West. Chicago: University of Chicago Press. p. 193
- ^ Chryssides, George (1999). Exploring New Religions. London: Cassell. p. 237.
- ^ Chryssides, George (1999). Exploring New Religions. London: Cassell. p. 235.
- ^ Lopez, Donald S. (1998). Prisoners of Shangri-La: Tibetan Buddhism and the West. Chicago: University of Chicago Press. p. 193
- ^ Waterhouse, Helen (1997). Buddhism in Bath: Adaptation and Authority. University of Leeds, Department of Theology and Religious Studies. p. 137.
- ^ An Interview With Geshe Kelsang Gyatso by Donald S. Lopez, Jr. Tricycle Magazine, Spring 1998, Vol. 7 No. 3. p. 74
- ^ Belither, James. Modern Day Kadampas: The History and Development of the New Kadampa Tradition. retrieved 2008-12-07.