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:I agree with '''vacio'''. Hewsen changed his point of view. Consult his Atlas for reference and his appearance in Tom de Waal's Black Garden. By the way, I a week ago supported a restoration of a much better-written history section that was put together earlier in 2011 but was erased by [[User:Tuscumbia]] who was banned yesterday for a year. Since he is banned, his edits should be reverted. [[User:Zimmarod|Zimmarod]] ([[User talk:Zimmarod|talk]]) 23:35, 2 February 2012 (UTC) |
:I agree with '''vacio'''. Hewsen changed his point of view. Consult his Atlas for reference and his appearance in Tom de Waal's Black Garden. By the way, I a week ago supported a restoration of a much better-written history section that was put together earlier in 2011 but was erased by [[User:Tuscumbia]] who was banned yesterday for a year. Since he is banned, his edits should be reverted. [[User:Zimmarod|Zimmarod]] ([[User talk:Zimmarod|talk]]) 23:35, 2 February 2012 (UTC) |
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::I agree with changes to the early history section. [[User:Nocturnal781|Nocturnal781]] ([[User talk:Nocturnal781|talk]]) 23:43, 2 February 2012 (UTC) |
::I agree with changes to the early history section. [[User:Nocturnal781|Nocturnal781]] ([[User talk:Nocturnal781|talk]]) 23:43, 2 February 2012 (UTC) |
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:::I disagree. Hewsen clearly sticks to his original position in his interview to de Waal, refers to the same work of 1980s and accuses both sides of manipulating the historical facts. Also, primary sources should not be interpreted by wiki editors. We can only refer to interpretations by reliable secondary sources. Mainstream history does not support the idea that Armenians were aboriginal inhabitants of NK and South Caucasus. Since the ancestors of Armenians came into region at some point in history, clearly the region was inhabited by other people before that happened. Also, the sources used must be all neutral and third party, while Caucasian Knot by Chorbaijan and other similar sources are clearly partisan. Also, there are too many suspicions accounts here, restoring edits by other banned SPAs and agreeing with each other. For instance, Nocturnal781 looks pretty much like an SPA. Created on January 9, |
:::I disagree. Hewsen clearly sticks to his original position in his interview to de Waal, refers to the same work of 1980s and accuses both sides of manipulating the historical facts. Also, primary sources should not be interpreted by wiki editors. We can only refer to interpretations by reliable secondary sources. Mainstream history does not support the idea that Armenians were aboriginal inhabitants of NK and South Caucasus. Since the ancestors of Armenians came into region at some point in history, clearly the region was inhabited by other people before that happened. Also, the sources used must be all neutral and third party, while Caucasian Knot by Chorbaijan and other similar sources are clearly partisan. Also, there are too many suspicions accounts here, restoring edits by other banned SPAs and agreeing with each other. For instance, Nocturnal781 looks pretty much like an SPA. Created on January 9, 2012, the very first edit is to deredlink his user age to look like an established user, and for the most part is engaged in edit warring on AA articles. Zimmarod is the same, created in November 2011, instantly deredlinked his user page and jumped into AA edit wars. I propose to ban all new accounts from editing articles like this, unless they prove themselves good faith editors by editing articles outside of AA conflict for at least 1 year. [[User:Grandmaster|<span style="font-family:Arial;color:#464646">'''''Grand'''''</span>]][[User talk:Grandmaster|<span style="font-family:Arial;color:#808080">'''''master'''''</span>]] |
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New cherry picked information
What value does this cherry picked information add to the article? Are we seriously going to mention every killed soldier? Perhaps we should start with the killing of a 9-year-old Azerbaijani kid by Armenian snipers, which was condemned by PACE [1]. Or should we mention the countless of political representaties nations and organisations who have confirmed Karabakh to be within the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Azerbaijan? This new information added by Ali55te also doesnt go along with the other information from the headline. The text talks about resolutions and condemnations not rumours. For this reason I removed the information added. Neftchi (talk) 09:36, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
- It's a notable event. Your explanation does not seem sufficient to me. Kurdo777 (talk) 18:19, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
- Killed soldier ??? How come a drone is a soldier ? Drone is a UAV "unmanned air vehicle" and the importance of that is the possible violation of weapon sales. Apart from that that section is fully biased. Do you think only Azerbaijani soldiers or civillians are dead ? http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=armenian-civilian-shot-dead-in-karabakh-say-separatists-2011-05-13 You can find more examples on the Armenian side. I suggest you start to remove some of them otherwise others can add the Armenian side and I don't know how the article will look like in the end. Ali55te (talk) 03:45, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
- "I suggest you start to remove some of them otherwise others can add the Armenian side and I don't know how the article will look like in the end" - Your statement can be viewed as a threat for a new edit war. This kind of demands and threats are grossly against Wikipedia regulations. If you dont know how the article will turn out then you should not continue to work on it. Aside this you havent given asnwer to my real argument. This new added information adds no value to the article. The contemporary situation headline is based on real resolutions, your added information is cherry picked information. Weapons sale violate by Moldova to Armenia was not mentioned. The statement by Almagro was of personal nature not official. No declaration was adopted regarding his statement so this cannot be included in this article. Are we going to seriously add every personal statement by politicians regarding Karabakh? What about the dozens of politicians which have stated the withdrawel of Armenian troops or to respect the territorial integrity of Azerbaijan. Given your recent edits, this kind of information should also be added. For this reason I would want to ask for an review of your recent edits. Mursel (talk) 13:59, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- Before these edits some authors removed thousands lines of information related to the Armenian heritage in the area. I did not revert that edits to not engage in edit war. The section is so biased that it can not bi biased more then this. There are may 3 declarations from organization of Islamic countries which is not a respected organization in the world and known as anti-semitic statements during the openning sessions etc.. Do not imagine virtual threats etc.. You add a pace declaration like the organization took the decision in fact it is not a official declaration and it is mostly signed by representatives from Azerbaijan and Turkey. Uruguay is the first country in the world which recognized the Armenian Genocide, hence it can be the first country in the future who will recognize the Nagorno-Karabakh as an independen republic. I am not removing anything from the section, the problem was that, there was no information from the other side. 01:40, 17 October 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ali55te (talk • contribs)
- First of all learn the difference between PACE a declaration and resolution. And why do you explicitly mention Azerbaijan and Turkey? Is there any discriminatory chosing factor behind this? If you want to mention who voted for the declaration then ALL members need to be mention not just the two countries you dont like. Second, what Uruguay will and will not do it not open for our personal interpretation. Uruguay is the first country in the world which recognized the Armenian Genocide, hence it can be the first country in the future who will recognize the Nagorno-Karabakh as an independen republic. This shows your original research, for you have no sources at all to confirm this except for your personal opinion. I would find it ironic to see Uruguay recognize NK while Armenia doesnt. Also YouTube is not and cannot be used as a source or reference. The fact that you added YouTube for the second time [2], even after I warned you, is a clear breach of regulations. The information in the Contemporary situation headline is not about what you want or what I want. Its about the international law and its regulations and resolutions. That cannot be changed and that subject should not be turned into gossip, personal interpretation and original research as your text presents. Another important fact is you added all this information without any consensus. That is what we're trying to achieve with this, for this reason I removed your text untill we can get consensus to keep it. Mursel (talk) 08:43, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
- In show of good faith I also removed my own added text until a consensus is reached [3]. Mursel (talk) 08:47, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
- Before these edits some authors removed thousands lines of information related to the Armenian heritage in the area. I did not revert that edits to not engage in edit war. The section is so biased that it can not bi biased more then this. There are may 3 declarations from organization of Islamic countries which is not a respected organization in the world and known as anti-semitic statements during the openning sessions etc.. Do not imagine virtual threats etc.. You add a pace declaration like the organization took the decision in fact it is not a official declaration and it is mostly signed by representatives from Azerbaijan and Turkey. Uruguay is the first country in the world which recognized the Armenian Genocide, hence it can be the first country in the future who will recognize the Nagorno-Karabakh as an independen republic. I am not removing anything from the section, the problem was that, there was no information from the other side. 01:40, 17 October 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ali55te (talk • contribs)
- "I suggest you start to remove some of them otherwise others can add the Armenian side and I don't know how the article will look like in the end" - Your statement can be viewed as a threat for a new edit war. This kind of demands and threats are grossly against Wikipedia regulations. If you dont know how the article will turn out then you should not continue to work on it. Aside this you havent given asnwer to my real argument. This new added information adds no value to the article. The contemporary situation headline is based on real resolutions, your added information is cherry picked information. Weapons sale violate by Moldova to Armenia was not mentioned. The statement by Almagro was of personal nature not official. No declaration was adopted regarding his statement so this cannot be included in this article. Are we going to seriously add every personal statement by politicians regarding Karabakh? What about the dozens of politicians which have stated the withdrawel of Armenian troops or to respect the territorial integrity of Azerbaijan. Given your recent edits, this kind of information should also be added. For this reason I would want to ask for an review of your recent edits. Mursel (talk) 13:59, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- Killed soldier ??? How come a drone is a soldier ? Drone is a UAV "unmanned air vehicle" and the importance of that is the possible violation of weapon sales. Apart from that that section is fully biased. Do you think only Azerbaijani soldiers or civillians are dead ? http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=armenian-civilian-shot-dead-in-karabakh-say-separatists-2011-05-13 You can find more examples on the Armenian side. I suggest you start to remove some of them otherwise others can add the Armenian side and I don't know how the article will look like in the end. Ali55te (talk) 03:45, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
- Dear Mursel, you say that Youtube is not and cannot be used as a source (at least that's what I think you said through all the broken English) but I can't seem to find the policy that says so. I found Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources where it says audio, video, and multimedia materials that have been recorded then broadcast, distributed, or archived may qualify as source material, which led me to WP:YOUTUBE which says There is no blanket ban on linking to YouTube or other user-submitted video sites, as long as the links abide by the guidelines on this page. It seems then that the reason i couldn't find the policy banning Youtube is that there isn't one and you were quite wrong to suggest otherwise. Whether the video in question abide(s) by the guidelines on this page or not is a different question, but not one that is answered by inventing policy, so I have undone your edit.
- In looking for material regarding the 9 year old boy I came across several non-Azeri reliable sources commenting on the story - here is one - and I am inclined to believe that the question of weight has not yet been reliable answered on this talkpage. Perhaps a look at WP:CONSENSUS wouldn't go amiss. Weakopedia (talk) 06:55, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
- Please read this, it clearly says that YouTube is not a reliable source unless the video authenticity can be confirmed. For example you can use a BBC video from their official YouTube channel. Anything other than that is a breach of copyright and thus cannot be used:
- "YouTube and other video-sharing sites are not reliable sources because anyone can create or manipulate a video clip and upload without editorial oversight, just as with a self-published website. In some cases, video clips published on YouTube may be acceptable as primary sources if their authenticity can be confirmed, or as a secondary source if they can be traced to a reliable publisher, but even then should be used with caution. They may also be used as a convenience link for material originally published elsewhere. Be careful not to link to material that is a copyright violation."
- The video in question is not the owner of the video and thus its not in his copyright. We dont wanna breach copyright policy of Wikipedia now do we?
- You also failed to answer my argument that this content [4] doesnt add any value to the article in fact it disrupts it. The contemporary situation section is mainly about official resolution, declarations by UN, EU, PACE, etc. I believe it should not be about miniscule events, like he killed him and in return he shot them nor should it be about personal opinions of politicians. It should remain about official resolution and declarations from states and international organisations. If the contemporary situation headline is to include every cease-fire breach then this article will become pointless and add no value. Just one sentence as "the ceasefire agreement is breached by both sides" is enough to sum it up. Mursel (talk) 11:06, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
- In looking for material regarding the 9 year old boy I came across several non-Azeri reliable sources commenting on the story - here is one - and I am inclined to believe that the question of weight has not yet been reliable answered on this talkpage. Perhaps a look at WP:CONSENSUS wouldn't go amiss. Weakopedia (talk) 06:55, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
- I was asked to comment here, I apologize if it seems like I'm intruding. Reiterating what Mursel stated, we don't usually use YouTube as a source. The only times I've seen YouTube being used is an external link. If memory serves me, we even have a filter that prevents YouTube links from being added by users with certain amount of edits/X days, months, etc. old. It's not an encouraged source to use. I'm not an expert with this current topic. Please bare with me. If it's a notable event as Kurdo777, then it should probably be included. But at glance, coming from an editor with limited information from this topic, it seems significant enough to be included. I have a question for you guys. How often are events like this occurring? Are there more significant events?
- Also, for the sake of NPOV, we should include information such as quote, Weapons sale violate by Moldova to Armenia, end quote if it's available. If there's multiple situations, then the most important ones such be listed here or perhaps create a separate article to further show violations (this article is starting to become too big). I hope that helps.
- As a side note, the date formats should probably be consistent. Just in that section Month/Date/Year and Date/Month/Year were being used. Elockid (Talk) 00:31, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
- Sniper fire from either side is a daily occurrence. But this was the first time a UAV was shot down or fell down, depending who you want to believe. Either way it doesn't look good for Azeris. --George Spurlin (talk) 14:50, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
- The cease-fire agreement is breached on daily bases by both sides. So I think its best to mention one line about this. The ceasefire agreement is breached regular by both sides. As for the UAV, Israeli sources argue that the UAV was show by Russian officers [5]. Mursel (talk) 13:27, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- Sniper fire from either side is a daily occurrence. But this was the first time a UAV was shot down or fell down, depending who you want to believe. Either way it doesn't look good for Azeris. --George Spurlin (talk) 14:50, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
Demographics
The 1823 Russian Survey of the Karabagh Province: A Primary Source on the Demography and Economy of Karabagh in the First Half of the 19th Century. Trans. George A. Bournoutian. Costa Mesa, CA, 2011.is used in the article on Karabakh in regards to census information, but is left out in this article. This academic work states that in 1822/3 Armenians made up 97% of the population of Nagorno-Karabakh. This article uses ^ Description of the Karabakh province prepared in 1823 according to the order of the governor in Georgia Yermolov by state advisor Mogilevsky and colonel Yermolov 2nd (Russian: Opisaniye Karabakhskoy provincii sostavlennoye v 1823 g po rasporyazheniyu glavnoupravlyayushego v Gruzii Yermolova deystvitelnim statskim sovetnikom Mogilevskim i polkovnikom Yermolovim 2-m), Tbilisi, 1866. A translation from Russian, compared to the 2011 work by Bournoutian. Although the article is understandably delicate I believe that the modern academic work is more clear then the the translated work from 1866. RNajdek (talk) 05:04, 15 November 2011 (UTC)RNajdek — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.14.126.27 (talk) 04:59, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
In the text on demographics two paragraphs speak about the same census of 1823 but make drastically different interpretations of its results. Clarification is needed. Winterbliss (talk) 04:14, 24 November 2011 (UTC) Removed controversial paragraph until consensus is reached on page on Karabakh. Winterbliss (talk) 04:41, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
Interwiki
The Swedish article is about the republic, not the region, and could thus be removed from this article. --78.82.250.63 (talk) 13:26, 25 January 2012 (UTC) (user:flinga on svwp)
Protected
A 28k shift from one version to the other is way too much to be reverting back and forth over over. Discuss each piece individually, please, and do try to work together? And if anyone is violating the provisions of the arbitration on this topic, please remind them that they are beholden to it and further edit warring will result in blocking. Thank you. --Golbez (talk) 15:05, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- So, you'll throw 1/4 of the article back and forth like it's nothing, but not one of you is ready to defend the edits? Hm. --Golbez (talk) 13:07, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry I did not notice this message. User:Oliveriki has done a tremendus job of putting together a splendid compliation of first-class research on the history and demography of the region. He must be praised for this work. I do not hesitate for a second to support his research. The text is big and it would be hard to discuss every entry by Oliveriki in details but his additions feature objective sources from first class Western academics. Azerbaijani editors always discard anything that runs against the spirit and letter of official state propaganda of their bizarre oil dictatorship headed by the uncrowned KGB monarch Aliyev. Azerbaijani futile fight against Western academia is like the objections of of the state-brainwashed Chinese or Soviets against Western accusations of human rights abuse. The favorite method of Azerbaijani objections to truth is finding Armenian grandmothers in the bloodline of Western academics (!!!!!). User:Tuscumbia was banned for six months for entertaining such ideas. Golbez I think u should restore the text and if some people disagree they should state why they do point by point. Zimmarod (talk) 22:35, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Actually, the onus for keeping an edit is on the person making it, not the person reverting it. I don't really know or care which side is right, just figure it out before this gets unprotected. If Tuscumbia was banned for six months, that just makes them one of a long line of editors on both sides who have been banned over this petty fight so that's not going to sway me one way or another. All I care about is stopping the edit war without having to actually read the material, because I burned out on picking through the contributions to these articles years ago. It's just that this behavior annoys me enough that, instead of un-watchlisting the article, I make the children sit down and tell them to play nice. --Golbez (talk) 22:39, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- And to be clear: I don't know if one side is right or not. I don't care. I just don't like edit wars, and I don't like having to enforce them by blocking people when there's been zero discussion on the topic. So, the article gets locked until there's discussion. Maybe in a week I'll switch it to the version with your edit, and then swap it back and forth forever until discussion takes place. --Golbez (talk) 22:41, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Actually, the onus for keeping an edit is on the person making it, not the person reverting it. I don't really know or care which side is right, just figure it out before this gets unprotected. If Tuscumbia was banned for six months, that just makes them one of a long line of editors on both sides who have been banned over this petty fight so that's not going to sway me one way or another. All I care about is stopping the edit war without having to actually read the material, because I burned out on picking through the contributions to these articles years ago. It's just that this behavior annoys me enough that, instead of un-watchlisting the article, I make the children sit down and tell them to play nice. --Golbez (talk) 22:39, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry I did not notice this message. User:Oliveriki has done a tremendus job of putting together a splendid compliation of first-class research on the history and demography of the region. He must be praised for this work. I do not hesitate for a second to support his research. The text is big and it would be hard to discuss every entry by Oliveriki in details but his additions feature objective sources from first class Western academics. Azerbaijani editors always discard anything that runs against the spirit and letter of official state propaganda of their bizarre oil dictatorship headed by the uncrowned KGB monarch Aliyev. Azerbaijani futile fight against Western academia is like the objections of of the state-brainwashed Chinese or Soviets against Western accusations of human rights abuse. The favorite method of Azerbaijani objections to truth is finding Armenian grandmothers in the bloodline of Western academics (!!!!!). User:Tuscumbia was banned for six months for entertaining such ideas. Golbez I think u should restore the text and if some people disagree they should state why they do point by point. Zimmarod (talk) 22:35, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Golbez, please see the futility of building a consensus with User:Tuscumbia here on talk pages in Murovdag [6]. I think five editors spend a month in empty talk with a stubborn POV-pusher. Zimmarod (talk) 22:43, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
Golbez, do you find any similarities in the following statements: by Zimmarod and by Gorzaim? Same person. No doubt. Here is more of the same rhetoric: [7] and [8] (along with the current [9]) Ironically, Winterbliss, Zimmarod and many others appeared at nearly the same time (meaning their active period coincides) and they speak the "same language". Look at their joint activity. After monthly intervals, Oliveriki is called to make that special sockpuppet edit such as this one, which was undone by one of editors for being the product of major sockpuppet master Hetoum I's socks Bars77, Gorzaim and Vandorenfm, which in turn, was reverted by another new suspicious account Szeget, who was, needless to say, found to be a sock of Hetoum I/Xebulon, as well. Tuscumbia (talk) 22:58, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Zimmarod; it seems it wasn't Oliveriki who wrote this all up. She just restored older entries. This section is supposed to be about building consensus on subject matter issues. Instead Tuscumbia prefers cheap manipulations in hope to persuade administrators that everyone is a sock of each other. Tuscumbia and his friends have nothing to say, they are just gaming the system. And it appears that those who should be checked for the DUCK TEST are User:Mursel and User:Tuscumbia: compare Mursel here [10] and Tuscumbia here [11] and here [12]. Both make identically worded threats "["One more blind revert" - "You do that one more time" - "If you keep doing it"] and you will be reported." Now see who is the real sockmaster. Same language same threats. He does not say "I will report you if you do this/that" but "If - blah, blah - you will be reported." Identical structure of the phrase. Do not forget that both Tuscumbia and Mursel help one another on AA2 pages like they just did on Nagorno-Karabakh page here [13] and here [14].
- Now see what uninvolved third party editors say about Tuscumbia:
- Lothar von Richthofen commented on Tuscumbia's misuse of SPIs:
- "Checkuser is not for fishing. If you can present actual evidence other then "they make edits that I don't like and it makes me mad so I want to harass them with SPIs on the offhand chance that they will turn up to be the same people, then maybe a new Checkuser might be in order. Otherwise, your invocation of phantom sockpuppeteers is borderline disruptive.→ [15]
- Administrator User:Wgfinley getting tired of Tuscumbia unwillingness to cooperate with several editors:
- Tuscumbia - you are on the cusp of some action on my part. I don't see anything from you that legitimately refutes either Walker or Hewsen as reliable sources for this article. You want to accuse the sources of bias but have no evidence that proves them as such and seem instead to make up bias for them (such as Hewsen somehow making his own electronic maps). There have been established texts supplied that support that use of that name, why can't it be added as an alternate name? [16]
- Winterbliss (talk) 02:45, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
I see two posts trying to get me to care about who is or is not a sock of someone else, or who can or can not be reasoned with. I don't care. I'm here to protect the article, not spend hours diving into the minutiae. If you can't come to a consensus then you move on up the dispute resolution ladder. If you think someone is a sock then you go to the suspected sockpuppets page. What you do not do is continue to revert back and forth. Period. --Golbez (talk) 13:30, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- Golbez - "Actually, the onus for keeping an edit is on the person making it, not the person reverting it." I dont understand what that means. There were several authors who wrote the 1/4 of the text that was deleted, and several other editors who endorse these new edits. If someone does not like the new edits, she might have explained her position right after her revert. None of the editors who were reverting the new edits explained what they disagreed with. The were just posting "this is a POV" when reverting, meaning that they were not interesting in improving the article in principle. Let's restore the text and if the reverting/deleting Azerbaijani editors finally bother to explain why they revert, we may consider their arguments and accordingly modify the text. The onus is in this particular case on those who did not bother to explain their reverts on talk pages and engaged instead in edit war. Zimmarod (talk) 20:55, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- Zimmarod, there is a problem here. You are defending edits from someone else that strongly appear to not have been made in good faith. It is very unusual that an editor with 13 edits somehow picks an edit from 4 months ago and implements it. How many new editors do that? And then disappears? And gave a crappy edit summary? I agree with Tuscumbia, there's serious quacking here. Zimmarod, if you want to justify the edit, then go for it - you are allowed to take ownership of it, if you can ably defend it. You should understand what you're dealing with: You said, "User:Oliveriki has done a tremendus job of putting together a splendid compliation of first-class research on the history and demography of the region. He must be praised for this work." No, he didn't. If you compare the version that Szeget put up in September with the one Oliveriki put up a few days ago, they are functionally identical. (link: [17]) The only way Oliveriki wrote this is if he WAS Szeget, and if he was, that means he should be blocked. So please understand that there's no valid way around this. Either Oliveriki didn't write this, he just happened upon a revert from 4 months ago and thought he'd integrate it into the article; or he did write it, and thus is a sockpuppet and should be blocked. I find it very interesting that Oliveriki made his edit then completely disappeared; surely a new editor who had just done an "tremendous job" of "first-class research" would want to stick around and see how his labor was received? --Golbez (talk) 21:18, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- I don't think anyone should "own" the article or the edits, and I am against Zimmarodd's owning of this article or the edits that he supported. I also support edits of other users. I have supported MarshalBagramian, George Spurlin, and others but why anyone should "own" edits??? The edits in question were made by four or five accounts in mid-2011, not by User:Oliveriki or User:Zimmarod. So what? Edits are edits. If they make subject-matter sense and are referenced and are ok as per other WP rules of editing they are fine. What is not ok, and here I tend to agree with Zimmarrod, is erasing them without explanation, as User:Mursel, User:Tuscumbia and User:Ehud Lazar did now and before in mid-2011. That is the problem, and that is where you, Golbez, should have intervened but instead you perhaps without partiality intention endorsed the vandalized version of the article. Winterbliss (talk) 04:34, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- Simply put, when someone is banned, their edits can be reverted on sight. Whether they are good or bad. If they are valid edits, then someone who wasn't banned has to make them and claim them as their own, rather than simply saying "I think your reversion was incorrect." It is now them who is making the edit and must defend it, rather than leave it on the original, banned, editor to defend it. That's what I mean by take ownership. If they are to be preserved, someone must take responsibility for them. I would love to assume good faith but with these articles, that will never exist, so I gave up on it long ago. Every time I've tried I've been bitten, and it's extremely difficult for me to look at Oliveriki's edit in good faith. (Zimmarod's defense of it, however, does appear genuine and in good faith) And, again: It is an edit that requires justification, not the reversion thereof, as per Bold, Revert, Discuss. Finally: To call the reverted version the "vandalized" version is really displaying a bias, whether you intended it or not. I would say someone editwarring over a long period of time and with multiple socks to insert his preferred version is vandalizing. At least Tuscumbia generally follows the rules. --Golbez (talk) 04:50, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- I don't think anyone should "own" the article or the edits, and I am against Zimmarodd's owning of this article or the edits that he supported. I also support edits of other users. I have supported MarshalBagramian, George Spurlin, and others but why anyone should "own" edits??? The edits in question were made by four or five accounts in mid-2011, not by User:Oliveriki or User:Zimmarod. So what? Edits are edits. If they make subject-matter sense and are referenced and are ok as per other WP rules of editing they are fine. What is not ok, and here I tend to agree with Zimmarrod, is erasing them without explanation, as User:Mursel, User:Tuscumbia and User:Ehud Lazar did now and before in mid-2011. That is the problem, and that is where you, Golbez, should have intervened but instead you perhaps without partiality intention endorsed the vandalized version of the article. Winterbliss (talk) 04:34, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- Zimmarod, there is a problem here. You are defending edits from someone else that strongly appear to not have been made in good faith. It is very unusual that an editor with 13 edits somehow picks an edit from 4 months ago and implements it. How many new editors do that? And then disappears? And gave a crappy edit summary? I agree with Tuscumbia, there's serious quacking here. Zimmarod, if you want to justify the edit, then go for it - you are allowed to take ownership of it, if you can ably defend it. You should understand what you're dealing with: You said, "User:Oliveriki has done a tremendus job of putting together a splendid compliation of first-class research on the history and demography of the region. He must be praised for this work." No, he didn't. If you compare the version that Szeget put up in September with the one Oliveriki put up a few days ago, they are functionally identical. (link: [17]) The only way Oliveriki wrote this is if he WAS Szeget, and if he was, that means he should be blocked. So please understand that there's no valid way around this. Either Oliveriki didn't write this, he just happened upon a revert from 4 months ago and thought he'd integrate it into the article; or he did write it, and thus is a sockpuppet and should be blocked. I find it very interesting that Oliveriki made his edit then completely disappeared; surely a new editor who had just done an "tremendous job" of "first-class research" would want to stick around and see how his labor was received? --Golbez (talk) 21:18, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- The fact of the matter is that these mass edits are done not by established users, but by sock accounts that had appeared and messed everything up before they were disclosed and blocked indefinitely. To retain the same text, a new wave of accounts appeared virtually at the same time. At the very same time, activity of established users decreased. Whether these new accounts operate from the same geograhical area or not, is now irrelevant; what's relevant is that one puppeteer is operating them. Hence,the similarities between statements "Bars77 should be commended for restoring parts of the article as asked here on talk pages. I wish there were more editors like Bars77 who would try to accommodate the opposite side's point of view irrespective of the latter's emotional outbursts and threats" and "User:Oliveriki has done a tremendus job of putting together a splendid compliation of first-class research on the history and demography of the region. He must be praised for this work. I do not hesitate for a second to support his research" from two seemingly different people, who speak the same language, of praising suspicious accounts (first two were blocked for socking). Tuscumbia (talk) 16:01, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- Tuscumbia is being consistently disruptive in his futile effort to expose his opponents as socks even post-SPIs, which points in the same direction - Tuscumbia et al aren't here to improve this article but to sabotage its content by making bizarre claims against other editors. Golbez's support of Tuscumbia where he says "At least Tuscumbia generally follows the rules" I find suspicious and disquieting. Winterbliss (talk) 04:01, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- He's been blocked twice. We're talking about edits from someone banned for sockpuppetry. So, comparatively, yes, Tuscumbia follows the rules. If you think he's being "consistently disruptive" then move up the dispute resolution ladder, but otherwise that has no bearing here. As for it being "suspicious and disquieting," again, formally accuse me of whatever bias you think you're seeing (and, by the way, all of the long-time civil editors of these articles, on both sides, will laugh at you - I don't think you realize just how well I know these people) or stop bringing it up here. There's no use to repeated, passive-aggressive complaining about someone's conduct on an article's talk page; if you think they're acting in bad faith, there are more appropriate venues. This is about this article, and this edit, of which I think Tuscumbia is generally right on, in terms of where it came from, though not on its factual merits, which I have deliberately avoided examining. And which, I note, not one person has discussed. So much for trying to foster discussion. Do any of you actually care WHAT is in the article, or just who puts it there? --Golbez (talk) 14:44, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
Restored part of the text discussion by Zimmarod
• My discussion below is about my revert to an earlier version of the text [18] that was developed by several users in 2011 and destroyed early last fall due to an edit war outbreak and POV-pushing spree by User:Tuscumbia who was banned yesterday [19], by the way. • Formula in the Introduction about that “The region's future international status remains so far unsettled” fits better than the present language because the Minsk Group does not place bias in favor of any future outcome for status of NK. Population by ethnic Armenians is a fact and a major factor in the talks and should be in the Introduction. • Opening sentence in the Etymology on Artsakh makes sense and is based on 5 references, including the Caucasian Knot, a book written by French authors whose historical part was endorsed by Tom de Waal in his new book “The Caucasus: an Introduction” (page 102). Tom de Waal is recognized as an authority on the region by Wikipedia and included in official sources on NK. The other author widely cited in the added new text is George Bournoutian, an American historian and a global authority on the history of the region. His two volume study called “Armenians and Russia, A Documentary Record” includes correspondence of Armenian princes of Karabakh in the late Middle Ages and is a key source of academic insight for this article. Robert Hewsen is a historian from the US who was endorsed by Tom de Waal and is one of the most prominent authorities on medieval Karabakh. His “Armenia: a Historical Atlas” was highly acclaimed as a source of excellent graphically enhanced information on Armenia through history. All references were checked by me page by page. Christopher Walker is yet another third party source, an English author who comes with his article “The Armenian presence in Mountainous Karabakh” in the volume by John F. R. Wright called “Transcaucasian Boundaries.” Walker explains the use of the term Khachen. The Etymology section also points to a number of other terms applied to Nagorno Karabakh in the Middle Ages, such as Lesser Armenia, Lesser Syunik, and Armenia Interior. Medieval Armenian authors Movses Khorenatsi, Matheos Urhaetsi, the Greek author Plutarch are mentioned as sources of these names. I checked Movses Khorenatsi and Matheos Urhaetsi’s writings (he calls Artsakh Խորին Հայք, which can be translated as Armeia Interior or Deep Armenia) and they do truly provide valid basis for such claims. Plutarch and Khorenatsi are supported by Robert Hewsen’s Atlas and ‘The Caucasian Knot.” The photo image of the city of Tigranakert is ok in my opinion since it is supported by Robert Hewsen as an early mention of the term Artsakh. • The Early History section in the reformatted text is good but incomplete. A key point is the reference to the medieval Armenian geographer Anania of Shirak who is discussed by Robert Hewsen. Anania of Shirak makes an important point about Nagorno Karabakh/Artsakh being a land that was taken from Armenia in 428 AD and yet which was understood, perceived and codified by medieval Armenians as part of their homeland despite the detachment. The French-American volume “The Caucasian Knot” point to that notion as well, making a key secondary reference. Another key reference is Hewsen’s article called “The Kingdom of Artsakh” which explored high medieval Nagorno Karabakh during the reign of Hasan Jalal, Prince of Khachen. Ethno-demographic claims in the text are supported by the ancient Greek author Strabo and indirectly by Svante Cornell, a Swedish US-based author. I checked all these references are they are ok. Primary sources of Movses Khorenatsi and Movses Kaghankatvatsi which are fortified by the secondary source discussions by Robert Hewsen and the American authors Agop Jack Hacikyan, Gabriel Basmajian, and Edward S. Franchuk in the “The Heritage of Armenian Literature” are there to show how “Armenian culture and civilization flourished in the early medieval Nagorno-Karabakh.” • The High Middle Ages section starts with the discussion of the House of Khachen and relies on the medical author Kirakos Gandzaketsi, as primary source, and Robert Hewsen supporting him as a secondary source. An important primary source on the House of Arranshahik, predecessors of the House of Khachen, is Tovma Artsruni with his “History of the House of Artruni.” Tovma describes Nagorno Karabakh during the times of anti-Caliphate resistance and eviction of Arabs from the region. Sirarpie Der Nersessian, a well-known American historian, provides information about connections of medieval Nagorno Karabakh and Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia. Discussions on architectural monuments and other cultural aspects relies on “The Caucasian Knot.” • Discussions on Late Middle Ages are based on archival materials and on commentary in the two volume series “Armenians and Russia, A Documentary Record,” as well as on the travelogue “Life and Adventures of Emin Joseph Emin 1726-1809,” and on Persian-writing authors A.G.Bakikhanov, Adigezal Bek Qarabaghi and Mirza Jamal Qarabaghi. In my opinion it insufficiently discusses Armenian national independence and self-defense movements in Nagorno Karabakh and Synik in 1720s-1730s while mentioning Bagramian and Karabakh prince Israel Ori (whose rendering is also added). • The section on Language is good as it relies both on primary and secondary sources and on philological studies, e.g. Bert Vaux’s “The Phonology of Armenian.” • The Demographics and ethnic composition section is decent. The advantage of the new text is that it includes the ancient times subsection, including the exotic but informative sources such as the medieval military register of Armenia. “The Bondage And Travels Of Johann Schiltberger, A Native Of Bavaria, In Europe, Asia And Africa” was also used appropriately as a primary source. The “Armenians and Russia, A Documentary Record” volumes provide key data on demographic balance in the region in 17th, 18th and 19th centuries. Another important document is the survey prepared by the Russian imperial authorities in 1823. In the Soviet era section there is an interesting reference to Heydar Aliyev’s direct speech on the policy of demographic makeup in NKAO.
other please chip in. Zimmarod (talk) 23:29, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- I agree with changes to the early history section. Nocturnal781 (talk) 23:43, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you Nocturnal781. Zimmarod (talk) 23:47, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
Early history
The way the early history is written completely disregards a neutral point of view. It gives the reader a wrong view. I believe replacing the quote with this one is more neutral. Robert Hewsen wrote both sides are guilty of oversimplifying the ethnic history of the region, "the population of southeast Caucasus whether under Armenian or Albanian rule, was highly mixed, and to label it as being essentially one or the other or even to divide it simply into two groups is well in advance of the evidence. " Original reference: Robert H. Hewsen, "Ethno-History and the Armenian Influence Upon the Caucasian Albanians" Nocturnal781 (talk) 05:35, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- The entire section is very bad written. There are quotations out of context and/or superseded. Hewsen himself corrected some of his theories that he put forward in Ethno-History. --vacio 15:20, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- I agree with vacio. Hewsen changed his point of view. Consult his Atlas for reference and his appearance in Tom de Waal's Black Garden. By the way, I a week ago supported a restoration of a much better-written history section that was put together earlier in 2011 but was erased by User:Tuscumbia who was banned yesterday for a year. Since he is banned, his edits should be reverted. Zimmarod (talk) 23:35, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- I agree with changes to the early history section. Nocturnal781 (talk) 23:43, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- I disagree. Hewsen clearly sticks to his original position in his interview to de Waal, refers to the same work of 1980s and accuses both sides of manipulating the historical facts. Also, primary sources should not be interpreted by wiki editors. We can only refer to interpretations by reliable secondary sources. Mainstream history does not support the idea that Armenians were aboriginal inhabitants of NK and South Caucasus. Since the ancestors of Armenians came into region at some point in history, clearly the region was inhabited by other people before that happened. Also, the sources used must be all neutral and third party, while Caucasian Knot by Chorbaijan and other similar sources are clearly partisan. Also, there are too many suspicions accounts here, restoring edits by other banned SPAs and agreeing with each other. For instance, Nocturnal781 looks pretty much like an SPA. Created on January 9, 2012, the very first edit is to deredlink his user age to look like an established user, and for the most part is engaged in edit warring on AA articles. Zimmarod is the same, created in November 2011, instantly deredlinked his user page and jumped into AA edit wars. I propose to ban all new accounts from editing articles like this, unless they prove themselves good faith editors by editing articles outside of AA conflict for at least 1 year. Grandmaster
- I agree with changes to the early history section. Nocturnal781 (talk) 23:43, 2 February 2012 (UTC)