What is a creation myth?
Moved from talk:Creation myths
A creation myth is a specific type of myth which tells how the Universe, the Earth, life, and/or humanity came into being. A myth is just a story for which there is no documentary or scientific proof.
- Is there a way to revise this paragraph to indicate that a 'myth' usually dates from antiquity?
And that the authorship is always untraceable? I mean, it's too late for anyone to create any new myths, because the rest of us would know who wrote it -- or at least when.
- Yes, but that kind of detail should go into the myth article, not here in Creation myths. That's why I linked to it. :-) --Dmerrill
--Ed Poor
- it's too late for anyone to create any new myths
- I don't think this is true at all. Witness for example the belief that UFO's may bring wisdom or danger from other worlds.
Redirect and merge the article with Mythology?
I am thinking we ought to just redirect to Mythology. This is rapidly turning into a duplicate of it. :-) --Dmerrill
- I started the Myth page and I have no objection as long as we preserve (merge) any worthwhile content.
- I agree but prefer that Mythology redirect to Myth, as mythology, strictly, refers to writings of myth, while a "myth" title allows one to discuss and define myth itself, comment on the general sociology of myth, etc., with a subsection "mythology" (writings about myth). --Peter Kirby 22:32, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
Myths and falsehoods are not the same thing
I think we have to be careful to avoid the implication that myth = falsehood. Many of the ancients did not consider their myths falsehood. Ultimately Graeco-Roman myths are no different from Jewish or Christian stories. To call one myths and refuse to call the other myths also is to make a distinction that does not exist. (Unless the distinction you wish to make is one of truth, but that isn't NPOV.) -- SJK
- This, of course, is true. But in common every-day useage people equate the word "myth" with a story that is not true. In any case, I agree with your position. RK
- One common use of myth is unrelated to theology and legend. I added "myth" to refer to journalistic uses such as "ten myths about hair loss."
Journalists, inventors and myths
- Sorry, but this addition that I just removed
- does not fit the journalistic use (traditionally as a list of falsehoods on non-controversial subjects). It properly goes on the Science mythology page, where I am about to put it! :-) -- Cayzle
Look, my new entry (second one on the page) is intended to refer to the journalistic practice of "dispelling myths" -- most often in the form of a list of common and non-controversial misconceptions corrected in the list. This The Myth of the Lone Inventor does not fit with the other examples! -- Cayzle
Exactly; I meant it as an example of the first definition, not the second. I wouldn't put on the Scientific myths page, though; it's really just personal commentary, and I certainly don't have the credentials for my commentary on the matter to belong in an encyclopedia. I just like to point to it in Talk pages to explain why I make certain changes to pages about inventions. --LDC
Joseph(?) Campbell and Star Wars
I have heard that Campbell, a mythologist (is that the correct word? I'm not sure) referred to Star Wars as a "modern myth" where "myth" is used in the legend/tradition sense. This contradicts the idea that a myth doesn't have a specific author. I don't know, however, if Campbell's view is supported by other scientists. Does anyone have information on this? --KamikazeArchon
- I don't think "no specific author" is a defining characteristic of myths (in the first sense), just a common attribute. Wouldn't you say the names of Santa's reindeer, for example, are an importasnt part of the American myth of Santa Claus, even though they were created by Clement Moore? --LDC
Good point. --KA
- I agree too. I think we might identify a category of literary myths. These are works of fiction which, although they have a known author, embody a narrative of sufficient power and/or intuitively grasped symbolic significance that they are much more widely disseminated throughout a culture than merely among those who have read them. I draw this idea from A N Wilson who makes the point in his introduction to Bram Stoker's Dracula citing Mallory's Death of Arthur. The test might be to imagine that all printed copies of the original were destroyed after the author's death. If it is plausible that people would value the story enough to resurrect it, then it would qualify as a literary myth. The Lord of the Rings and War and Peace are possible further examples. --Alan Peakall 14:00 Oct 25, 2002 (UTC)
Is it really necessary for a myth to be believed to be true by those who tell it? I would have thought that the question of literal truth is unimportant; the "deep explanatory significance" would be what matters. Michael Hardy 23:15, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Pre-literate
The opening paragraph of this article seems to imply that only preliterate cultures have myths. I'm pretty sure that is not the case: in the first place Medieval Europe was not strictly a pre-literate culture, and has plenty of myths. Secondly, most people consider that we have myths in some form today. Can we adjust this? DJ Clayworth 17:52, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- We'll have to adjust more than this. This article is a horrible mish mash of truisms and second-rate precis's of pop-deconstructionists (who are given *much* too much emphasis). (OK, I say "precis" but thats much too nice a term for this Hyacinth's copy-out-of-this-semester's textbook approach. But I'm too nice to say "Plagiarise") A section on their belief of these figures, uninteresting and irrelevant outside university Critical Theory departments, would be much better. -- GWO 16:55, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Please see Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines Key Policy #4: "Respect other contributors." See also Wikipedia:Wikiquette, Wikipedia:Civility, and Wikipedia:Writers rules of engagement. Hyacinth 18:31, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- I do respect you. I just thought those edits were lousy. Now, respect my right to point that out. -- GWO 18:41, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- If you do respect me, treat me with respect. You're above comment shows that you know little to nothing about me (for instance, which school am I attending?), yet you are willing to insult and pigeon-hole me.
- You're comments show a distaste for and willful ignorance of 'pop-deconstruction' and 'critical theory', and yet you seem not to appreciate the arguments against them that I added to the article. Hyacinth 19:37, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Well, there was a reason for that. You didn't explain the arguments, and like most deconstructionist critics, they tend to write fundamentally nonsensical sentence. Maybe, in the context of the rest of the book their arguments are clear, but you made no attempt to give that context (the reference to May 1968 -- presumably the Paris riots -- but what about them? Omitted from your quote, and therefore impossible to follow). Critical Theorists are not exactly reknowned for their clarity of exposition, (too often conflating inpenetrability with depth). Writing an encyclopedia article is a lot more than copying sections out of books you like. (Not least, because, as in this case, what results is inevitably stylistically appalling). There is an art to precis and paraphrase. What you added was, basically, incoherent.
- But none of this makes you a bad person, even though you're trying to make this personal, which it isn't. Secondly, this article is not exclusively about Deconstructionist views on Myth, (an undeniably interesting topic) so interjecting long diatribes from your auteurs-du-jour into previously well constructed paragraphs is, again, a very poor stylistic trait. -- GWO
- Remember that this is a collaborative process. Hyacinth 20:03, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- And I was continuing that process, by weeding out the worst excesses of the critical theorists.
- Remember that this is a collaborative process. Hyacinth 20:03, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- PS : "Willful ignorance" is more personally uncivil than anything I said about you. Fortunately, I've a thick skin. On the other hand, I'll readily admit to a "Distaste" for these people.
- I do respect you. I just thought those edits were lousy. Now, respect my right to point that out. -- GWO 18:41, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Please see Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines Key Policy #4: "Respect other contributors." See also Wikipedia:Wikiquette, Wikipedia:Civility, and Wikipedia:Writers rules of engagement. Hyacinth 18:31, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- As I have said before, deleting information for NPOV is kinda like fucking for chastity.
- I know of one school in the US with a critical theory department, and it's really just an interdisciplinary program made up of faculty from other departments. So the claim of ignorance, on the face of it, looks pretty good - it is clear that you haven't undertaken any formal study of the material you're dismissing here.
- Quoted information is always preferable to unattributed "Some argues," and Hyacinth should be commended for putting well-cited information into the article.
- Barthes has never been particularly associated with deconstruction, though he is sometimes associated with poststructuralism.
- Barthes is not "pop deconstruction," so much as a highly respected scholar in a number of fields.
- Just because you can't understand a writer doesn't mean he's willfully unclear. I don't much understand molecular biology, but I don't say that they prefer to be obscure.
- The article isn't exclusively about deconstructionist views of myths.
- The hell you haven't been making personal attacks - veiled accusations of plagiarism and accusations that Hyacinth is simply copying out of a textbook are personal attacks, and you need to stop them immediately.
Snowspinner 20:01, Oct 28, 2004 (UTC)
- 1) Hilarious. My sides have split. PS : who mentioned NPOV. I was talking about bad writing.
- 2) What the hell does the US have to do with it?
- 3) Well cited from a single source
- 4) Big deal. I was using deconstructionist as a short hand for critical theorists.
- 5) No. He's a well respected Critical Theorist. That's it.
- 6) Willfully unclear, unwillfully unclear. What does it matter? Explain to me what "Myth is a word chosen by history. It could not come from the nature of things" actually means? How does history choose the word myth? Why can't it come from the nature of things?
- 7) Everyone of Hyacinth's additions was a long quote from a single source. Thats copying. Colour it however you like.
- OK, well then let me rephrase - deleting information is a crime against NPOV.
- Well, OK, where do you find departments of critical theory then?
- Hyacinth cites two sources, actually.
- Which goes a long way towards showing the ignorance you display here.
- Cited in philosophy, linguistics, comparive literature, English, art history... need I go on?
- Explain to me why it matters. Ask Hyacinth to clarify it if it doesn't make sense. Do the research and clarify it yourself. But don't just delete something because you don't understand it.
- Quoting is a good thing, and is generally, among those who edit literary and philosophic articles, encouraged because it reduces disputes over what someone said and provides more concrete evidence and less POV interpretation. But that isn't the point. Yes, Hyacinth quoted. The implied accusation of plagiarism and the accusation that he was copying from a textbook he was currently studying, however, are pure personal attacks.
Snowspinner 20:13, Oct 28, 2004 (UTC)
Actually I used only one citation, Barthes and others are cited in Mache. Hyacinth 20:41, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Myth & history clarification
Mache aligns himself with structuralists rather than poststructuralists.
To clarify "Myth is a word chosen by history. It could not come from the nature of things," I quote the opposite opinion:
"Myth therefore seems to choose history, rather than be chosen by it. It generates and informs history."
Thus "Myth is a word chosen by history. It could not come from the nature of things" is Barthes way of saying he prefers historical exegesis since, to paraphrase, "history generates and informs myth." Hyacinth 20:41, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- The trouble with this "clarification" is that its circular. Whatever Barthes means by "historical exegesis" is never really explained (except in additional jargon). Exegesis means explanation, (specifically of religious scripture). So explain, without using the structuralist jargon, what exactly is this theory of Historical Exegesis and why must it be contrasted by "the nature of things". What does Barthes even mean by "nature" in this context? Don't get me wrong, I don't object to the Critical Theorists having their say in this article. I do object to the presentation of their distinctly minority viewpoint being presented as mainstream thought. -- GWO
- FWIW, I agree with GWO on the substance. It can be the case that a minority viewpoint is didactically the best because it is easier to explain, and provides obvious talking points when introducing other viewpoints, but I don't think that applies in this case. ---- Charles Stewart 10:36, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I think that it's a grave misrepresentation to call critical theory a "minority' view. That's kind of like calling astrophysics a minority view. Yes, 95% of the world has probably never read Barthes. But those that have are people who have undertaken advanced study in the humanities at mainstream and respected universities. Critical theory is not some weird cult. It is the core and foundation of current academic research in the humanities. Snowspinner 16:53, Oct 29, 2004 (UTC)
- There is a misunderstanding here. I have no idea if Barthes ever used the term "historical exegesis", but he agreed with the viewpoint and technique. This viewpoint and technique existed, as the article indicates, for hundreds of years before Barthes, and thus in no way represents only a poststructuralist/deconstructionist/critical theory viewpoint or technique. All the article mentions in regards to Barthes is that he agrees with taking "Myths as depictions of historical events." It is not a "distinctly minority viewpoint", rather he is listed as one of many who agree with this viewpoint. I am surprised that we have to argue about this point. Hyacinth 18:41, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Persian mythology is one of the oldest and richest mythologies of the world. In my opinion it should be added to the template: "Articles related to mythology". You can read more about it here. --Mani1 01:21, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
C. S. Lewis
alright, dreamguy, why is cs lewis "not a good source," considering he was a professor of literature at highly prestigious schools who wrote extensively on the topic of mythology? is it because (GASP!) he was a CHRISTIAN!? Ungtss 20:24, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Because he's not considered notable in the field, at least not in comparison to hundreds of other people that would be better suited to be quoted here. And it's obvious that you are only listing him here because he's the only author even remotely connected to a field you have demonstrated sheer incompetence in on other articles, most likely because he's on your church's approved reading list or something. You're spreading your nonsense so fast that it's time just for damage control at this point. DreamGuy 21:16, Feb 25, 2005 (UTC)
- Ungtss, Per Wikipedia:No personal attacks, please do not personally address headings to people on talk pages. Article talk pages should be used for discussing the articles, not their contributors. Headings on article talk pages should be used to facilitate discussion by indicating and limiting topics related to the article. For instance, you could make a header whose title describes in a few words one problem you have with the article. This will make it easy for people to address that issue, work towards consensus, and eventually resolve the issue or dispute and improve the article. If you need to reach another user please go to their user talk page. Thanks. Hyacinth 21:29, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- DreamGuy, do you have a source which contradicts or discredits Lewis? Lewis isn't even mentioned on Talk:Deluge (mythology). Hyacinth 21:29, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- 1) grow up. you're acting like a 3-year old, which doesn't reflect well on your academic credentials, to say nothing of your common sense. if you'd like to prove by assertion and authority (which i know you love to do), i'm afraid you'll have to build some credibility first. Ungtss 21:24, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- 2) <<Because he's not considered notable in the field, at least not in comparison to hundreds of other people that would be better suited to be quoted here.>>
- got anybody better who defined myth in such a concise and clear way? the article at the moment is intractable -- you leave it not even knowing what a myth is. got anybody better, or just prefer to remove everybody "on my church's approved reading list?" is the information WRONG? is it MISLEADING? does it do any HARM to actually have a concise description of some of the characteristics of myth? Ungtss 21:24, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- 3) I don't go to church. i find it to be an utter waste of time. but not nearly as much of a waste of time as trying to swallow the garbage presented as fact by YOUR ilk. Ungtss 21:24, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. "Do not make personal attacks anywhere in Wikipedia. Comment on content, not on the contributor. Personal attacks damage the community and deter users." Please keep this is mind while editing. Thanks, Hyacinth 21:34, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- My apologies. Ungtss 21:39, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Don't forget, Assume good Faith too. WP:AGF. :) - Mailer Diablo 18:09, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Ungtss claimed that CS Lewis "wrote extensively on the topic of mythology" as his supporting evidence. This is untrue, and even if it were true that still wouldn;t establish him as a suspect. Ungtss could sit in a corner and write all about what he thinks Myth means until the cows come home and that wouldn;t make him an expert either. As proof that Ungtss is talking nonsense, go to the C. S. Lewis article and look for evidence of either being an expert on mythology or having written extensively about it. It isn't there, because it never happened. He wrote about religion, and he wrote children's fiction that featured a few creatures from Greek mythology. That does not make someone an expert on mythology, unless you think JK Rowling should also be quoted here as the other major "expert" in the field. The only people who think of him as an expert in the field are those people outside of it, like Ungtss here. DreamGuy 09:19, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)
reverted again without discussion on the talkpage. that section contains information not mentioned anywhere else on the page -- a breakdown and easy way to understand myths, their characteristics, and what they mean to is. that information is nowhere else on the page. you have provided neither a better explanation, nor a refutation of this one. why are you deleting this section, sir? Ungtss 00:03, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Dreamguy, the first time you reverted saying "Lewis is not a good source," but failed to provide a refutation of him nor provide a better one.
The second time you reverted saying "The information is already on the page," without showing me where or explaining why it was redundent.
this time you reverted saying "editor has a personal grudge against me."
(ASSUMING GOOD FAITH)
would you care to address the above concerns, dreamguy? Ungtss 18:14, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- The quote you removed: "Dreamguy, i don't give a rip about you. ... small wonder i have a grudge against you." pretty much sums that part up... You do have a grudge and you are purposefully changing things to introduce your side. Please note that you never tried to contribute anything here, and admitted you had no knowledge of mythology itself, until you called me uneducated about mythology at Deluge (mythology) talk and used a bad defintiion of myth to try to prove your point and then I responded totally proving you wrong. So you immediately pop over here and try to support yourself so you can further argue on other talk pages and try to put your religious beliefs into more articles.
- Further, as explained on the Deluge (mythology) talk page recently to your compatriot in biased editing, assuming good faith DOES NOT MEAN ignoring countless examples of clear bad faith. You are essentially a vandal on these pages, with an anti-scholarly agenda sneaking biased and unknowledgable content in wherever you can.
- As already explained, CS Lewis is primarily a religious author. His brand of "mythology" is religious, and done so as apologetics for Christianity in general. Mythology courses don't teach CS Lewis, scholarly mythology books don't reference CS Lewis, the only people who reference CS Lewis are those people who have him on their church-approved reading list.
- As far as everyone else here goes, Please take a look at my contribution history (specifically with high-quality information on mythology topics) and take a look at Ungtss' (mainly Creationism) and give the person with prove competency a little credit here. I don;t have the time to endlessly justify every single last thing I do to vandals who never justify their own actions, my main point here is to try to do damage control to prevent someone with a proven bias from doing more damage.One of Wikipedia's great challenges is that people with agendas and no educational background can whine and complain about proving every last detail and harass competent people so that they give up.
- DreamGuy 04:35, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)
Ungtss has a tendency to create new section headers constantly, I think because it makes it look like his side has more support if he starts most of the section headers or something. Anyway. Because they are all part of the same argument that was also above, I consolidated them into one. See above (09:19, Feb 27, 2005) where I point out that Ungtss claims for Lewis' expertise were unsupported and false. So now that that's over with... DreamGuy 09:30, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)
all should note, mr. dreamguy has yet to address the substance of the text, by either explaining why lewis was wrong, or providing something better. there is absolutely no reason not to have this text here. it's good, and clear, and written by a well-known literature scholar. his deletions thusfar are justified only by ad hominem. Ungtss 18:21, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- The quote you removed: "Dreamguy, i don't give a rip about you. ... small wonder i have a grudge against you."
- that "..." contains the explanation for the comment. well done taking it out of context, as usual.
- Please note that you never tried to contribute anything here, and admitted you had no knowledge of mythology itself
- two things patently false. i just DID try to contribute something here, and i NEVER admitted i have no knowledge of mythology. where are you getting this?
- until you called me uneducated about mythology at Deluge (mythology) talk and used a bad defintiion of myth to try to prove your point and then I responded totally proving you wrong.
- in response to being told i was a religious fundamentalist who should not be permitted to contribute to wikipedia, i used a MAINSTREAM SOCIOLOGICAL definition of myth to prove that you don't know what you're talking about. Ungtss 17:57, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- So you immediately pop over here and try to support yourself so you can further argue on other talk pages and try to put your religious beliefs into more articles.
- WHERE ARE THE RELIGIOUS BELIEFS IN THE TEXT I ADDED? Ungtss 17:57, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Further, as explained on the Deluge (mythology) talk page recently to your compatriot in biased editing, assuming good faith DOES NOT MEAN ignoring countless examples of clear bad faith. You are essentially a vandal on these pages, with an anti-scholarly agenda sneaking biased and unknowledgable content in wherever you can.
- i see that adding cited quotes from published works by literature scholars has become vandalism. good. Ungtss 17:57, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- As already explained, CS Lewis is primarily a religious author. His brand of "mythology" is religious, and done so as apologetics for Christianity in general
- his book "experiment in criticism" (from which this text was taken) had NOTHING to do with religion -- it was about learning how to read literature well. he was a literature professor who wrote on THAT topic extensively. on what basis Ungtss 17:57, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Mythology courses don't teach CS Lewis, scholarly mythology books don't reference CS Lewis, the only people who reference CS Lewis are those people who have him on their church-approved reading list.
- that's a very cute pov. what does it have to do with anything? Ungtss 17:57, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- As far as everyone else here goes, Please take a look at my contribution history (specifically with high-quality information on mythology topics) and take a look at Ungtss' (mainly Creationism) and give the person with prove competency a little credit here. I don;t have the time to endlessly justify every single last thing I do to vandals who never justify their own actions, my main point here is to try to do damage control to prevent someone with a proven bias from doing more damage.One of Wikipedia's great challenges is that people with agendas and no educational background can whine and complain about proving every last detail and harass competent people so that they give up.
- DreamGuy 04:35, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)
- well done with the appeal to authority and ad hominem. but you STILL haven't explained why this text is harmful or inaccurate in any way, or provided a superior alternative. you are very explicitly cutting him out because he's a christian. that, sir, is disgusting. Ungtss 17:57, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Ungtss has a tendency to create new section headers constantly, I think because it makes it look like his side has more support if he starts most of the section headers or something. Anyway. Because they are all part of the same argument that was also above, I consolidated them into one. See above (09:19, Feb 27, 2005) where I point out that Ungtss claims for Lewis' expertise were unsupported and false. So now that that's over with... DreamGuy 09:30, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)
- section headings are for claity, dreamguy. they make articles readable. you've again proven by assertion without factual basis. he was a literature professor and wrote on the topic. why mustn't he be included? Ungtss 17:57, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
for examples of my highly biased and low quality editing, consider my projects Influence of Hellenic philosophy on Christianity, Arguments for eternity, and Development of religion, and Liquefaction. yep. that's a man with nothing to contribute to wikipedia. a fundamentalist vandel. Ungtss 18:04, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I once again removed the pointless section headers Ungtss piut in to try to open more arguments on the same topics, and note that he just goes on repeating the same false claims. Fact: C.S. Lewis is not considered an expert in mythology. Fact: He wrote about religion, not mythology. Fact: Ungtss has yet to give any reason to believe otherwise, except for his word that he considers him an expert who wrote extensively on the topic. That doesn't cut it.
And, it's funny actually, the articles Ungtss points to to try to prove his worth on Wikipedia go a long way toward proving my point: that he has no knowledge about mythology and that he is only here to slip his Creationist beliefs into the encyclopedia. For anyone unfamiliar with him, you might also check out Creationism, Flood geology and Deluge (mythology), where he is engaged with wars on multiple fronts to add pseudoscience everywhere under the guise of true knowledge that arrogant scholarly types refuse to admit, and so forth and so on. There is a long strong of people who are sick to death of his pitbull antics and blatant bias. DreamGuy 03:50, Feb 28, 2005 (UTC)
- Please refrain from commenting on User:Ungtss here. If you have a problem with user's behaviour go to Wikipedia:Requests for comment#General user conduct. Hyacinth 04:28, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Hello, Hyacinth. I understand the sentiment, but since Ungtss's first comment here was to personally attack me and the edit being discussed was a result of an argument on another article talk page, explaining the situation seemed relevant. But then since the other editors here making changes to the article or adding comments since the controversy started have not reverted back to Ungtss' version since I more fully explained C.S. Lewis' lack of credentials, by our actions it looks like we are agreeing that his edits do not belong here, which I guess is all that matters at this point. DreamGuy 11:35, Feb 28, 2005 (UTC)
- There is no excuse for personal attacks, even personal attacks. Hyacinth 01:33, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
It isn't there, because it never happened. He [Lewis] wrote about religion, and he wrote children's fiction that featured a few creatures from Greek mythology. That does not make someone an expert on mythology, unless you think JK Rowling should also be quoted here as the other major "expert" in the field. The only people who think of him as an expert in the field are those people outside of it, like Ungtss here.
- You must refrain from commenting on any editors, including Ungtss.
- Please Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages. Hyacinth 01:33, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Actually, I have been signing posts, somewhere in the constant editing, it got removed. See Revision as of 03:19, Feb 27, 2005 for the signature I put there. DreamGuy 01:54, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)
- No problem then, it happens. Sorry. Hyacinth 06:15, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
substance
dreamguy's arguments thusfar have been SOLELY ad hominem, against me and against lewis, but NONE of them have gone to the content of the passage. dreamguy, what is WRONG with that text? is it not accurate? is it not true? are there others who would say he was wrong? who? why? are there BETTER sources you can cite who give "characteristics of myth?" your attacks on me are irrelevent. your attacks on lewis are groundless (the quoted book was EXCLUSIVELY about literary criticism and myth, and NOTHING about religion, and if you read any lewis, you'd realize he was an atheist for the first 30-odd years, and wrote a LOT of non-"religious" material about literary criticism, and myth). you have DELETED a good piece of text that provides information provided nowhere else. to justify your deletion, please either show why the information is WRONG, or provide a BETTER SOURCE. your feelings about me are irrelevent. this is about the text. Ungtss 13:45, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Concerning the C.S. Lewis "characteristics", my impression is that at the point in the article where they are presented, they seem a non-sequitur, as if they were just plopped into the beginning of the article. If the six characteristics are intended as the necessary and sufficient conditions for a narrative to be a "myth" -- as the definining characteristics of "myth" -- I find them perplexing and unhelpful. They seem at best to be six miscellaneous observations about myths, and not so self-evidently true that they can be presented without supporting examples and argument. Why these six particular characteristics, anyway? Are all myths supposed to have them? Is any narrative with these six characteristics a "myth"? They do not strike one as the intutive, fundamental, "axioms" of a theory of mythology. As for whether, as observations, they are even true, I do not know, but I have no reason to think so: one would have to check them against a very wide set of examples from many different cultures that are agreed to be "myths". If C. S. Lewis is not an recognized expert on myths, I would not take it on his authority that they are true. And, if he is not a recognized expert, the six characteristics don't merit this degree of prominence in the article, or perhaps any mention at all. --BM 18:44, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- I am curious by what standard an Oxford professor of literature cannot be considered an authority on myths. Snowspinner 19:30, Feb 28, 2005 (UTC)
- Oxford professors of literature probably know more about myths than Oxford professors of physics do, but literature is a broad subject, and mythology is a specialty. Lewis' academic specialty was late medieval and Renaissance literature, and later in his career he was a Professor of Medieval and Renaissance Literature at Cambridge. But he is known mainly for his fiction (where, in some works, he borrowed from mythology), and his religious writings. --BM 20:03, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Since medieval and renaissance literature has a fairly high mythological content, I'm having trouble with the removal - particular with several editors arguing for inclusion. Lewis is certainly a valid POV to represent. If there are other views you want represented, particularly opposition to Lewis... add them. Snowspinner 20:18, Feb 28, 2005 (UTC)
- Oxford professors of literature probably know more about myths than Oxford professors of physics do, but literature is a broad subject, and mythology is a specialty. Lewis' academic specialty was late medieval and Renaissance literature, and later in his career he was a Professor of Medieval and Renaissance Literature at Cambridge. But he is known mainly for his fiction (where, in some works, he borrowed from mythology), and his religious writings. --BM 20:03, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- So any *literature* professor is considered important enough to be listed as *defining* what *mythology* is? That doesn't sound like a reasonable standard. Being familiar with mythological allusions in Renaissnce literature in no way makes him capable of defining what myth is and is not. DreamGuy 02:16, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)
- As I argued above, the case against the quote is not only Lewis' status as an expert, or lack thereof, but that the quote is a non-sequitur in the context where it was placed. An article needs to be a bit more coherent than a series of quotes about myth from any professor with some claim to authority on the subject, until we get to the 32K limit. What is the significance of these six so-called characteristics of myth? And what role do they play near the introduction to the article? This article was already not very coherent before the Lewis quote was plopped into the beginning of it for who knows what reason. --BM 20:37, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Incidentally, in rereading this Talk page, I don't see any other editors arguing for inclusion of Lewis' six characteristics, besides Ungtss. I do see that Hyacinth has requested DreamGuy for a source regarding his claims concerning Lewis' authority. Incidentally, regarding this request, I think Hyacinth has it the wrong way round. If challenged (as he has been), the burden is really on Ungtss to produce citations establishing Lewis as an authority on mythology. The burden is not on people protesting his inclusion to prove that he is not an authority. And I'm afraid I'm not impressed with your argument that being an expert on medieval and renaissance literature necessarily makes Lewis such an expert on mythology that others are compelled to take his sweeping generalizations about myths on authority. --BM 20:58, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- BM is correct, I have not argued for the inclusion of the material. However, I feel BM is incorrect that the burden of proof falls to an editor that has contributed content, however poor and whatever that editors intentions, and not on someone who removes that uncited content, as is most content on Wikipedia, and gives as reasons personal attacks against the first contributor.
- I find it distressing that a contributor who has provided a source would now be required to provide three more regarding the first while being personally attacked by someone who has contributed no sources to the dispute. Hyacinth 01:26, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Thank you. It means a lot to hear you say that. However, I'll leave the fate of this text in the hands of you and the other editors of the page, because I've decided to leave wikipedia after 6 months of unending conflicts of this type. I wish you all the best. Ungtss 01:29, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- What, I find distressing, Hyacinth, is your repeated claim that Ungtss has proivided a source and that I haven't. Ungtss has not provided a source. I showed the C.S. Lewis article, in which Lewis lacks any expertise on myth. I asked you to name the source (somewhere above and your talk page, I believe) and you haven't explained. Further, Ungtss is asking me to prove a negative... that someone is not an expert. As I explained on your talk page, it's not like I can just show you 100 books and point out that CS Lewis is not in the bibliography. So, the ball is in your court. If you don't personally feel that's enough of a clear indication of Lewis' lack of note and reliability, make a suggestion on how someone can prove to your personal satisfaction. It's not a matter of not willing to provide source, it's amatter of already having done so and willing to do more but being ignored to this point. DreamGuy 02:01, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)
- I was hoping for a source which contradicted Lewis. This would make the issue of whether or not he is notable negligable because the content would be proved inreliable.
- Given my requirement for you to prove a negative (though it would be a simple case of establishing credentials for notable sources on myths and showing that Lewis lacked them, such as a degree in myths, or a strange myth-studies apprenticeship, or certificate stating one is mythknowledable, I obviously have no idea), and the mounting consensus, I would support the deletion of the material. However, since the argument is also related to the presentation of the information and had nothing to do with its accuracy, I would ask for a rewrite, by any editor, which A) makes the section flow with the article, B) indicates CS Lewis' relation to myths. Barring this rewrite, I support its deletion.
- Regarding the CS Lewis article as a source for this one, Wikipedia is not an appropriate "source" for itself. Just because a Wikipedia article doesn't say something doesn't mean its not the most important fact about that article's subject. The opposite may be true: I come across articles which discuss the topic in detail without any introduction or explination of what it is.
- For future disputes, what are appropriate ways to prove a sources notability? Surely to be allowed as a source for "myth" on Wikipedia one need not be a professor of mythology? This would ban even Freud, who is a notable and entertaining source. See: Wikipedia talk:Importance#Sources. Hyacinth 03:17, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- What, I find distressing, Hyacinth, is your repeated claim that Ungtss has proivided a source and that I haven't. Ungtss has not provided a source. I showed the C.S. Lewis article, in which Lewis lacks any expertise on myth. I asked you to name the source (somewhere above and your talk page, I believe) and you haven't explained. Further, Ungtss is asking me to prove a negative... that someone is not an expert. As I explained on your talk page, it's not like I can just show you 100 books and point out that CS Lewis is not in the bibliography. So, the ball is in your court. If you don't personally feel that's enough of a clear indication of Lewis' lack of note and reliability, make a suggestion on how someone can prove to your personal satisfaction. It's not a matter of not willing to provide source, it's amatter of already having done so and willing to do more but being ignored to this point. DreamGuy 02:01, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)
- I don't know if there is amn easily defined standard, but if the purpose is quoting someone on the definition of the term, that individual ought to be highly respected and sourced by other scholarly published references in the field. To use your example, Freud, although he may be entertaining, certainly would not count as notable for defining a field other than psychoanalysis and its offshoots (say, dream analysis or something along those lines). DreamGuy 03:32, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)
- See my response at Wikipedia_talk:Importance#Sources. May I copy your comment (directly above) there? Hyacinth 06:12, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Feel free (and feel free to switch the "amn" to "an" as well). DreamGuy 08:20, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)
Would be nice to have an article about a heroic myth. --Eleassar777 09:32, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
Explanation of latest tweaks
From folklorists' perspectives, the term myth has very defined criteria, including the fact that myths are sacred and believed as true. There were some sloppy uses of terms like "legend" and "secular mythology" in this article that I have tried to alter. I need to go back and compare this to the mythology entry. There's much more discussion to be added here, not only about different genres of myths, but about schools of thought. Campbell is highly controversial, as are Freud and Jung who are not even mentioned here (and myth played a big role in psychoanalysis and the early days of dream analysis in psychoanalytic thought). The other thing I want to echo in the discussion from above here, is that all sacred traditions have myths. The major religions would use the word pejoratively, as in "they [usually colonized peoples] have their myths, we [usually colonizing peoples] have our religion," but the processes of sacred traditions and narrative in that sense are the same whether cultures are "preliterate" (as the article used to read) or complex. That's why the variable about how much people believe in the truth of their sacred narratives becomes critical, and threatening when one attacks another tradition by dismissing it as a mere myth. Also, I added links to folklore and folkloristics, and removed social psychology. I've studied both, and there's no study of myth in social psychology, although there was (and may still be) a great deal in other subfields of psychology, such as clinical and analytical. Bruxism 23:59, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
Believed to be true
Do myths need to be belelieved by the people telling the myth, the people listening to the myth, or both? Cites please. Hipocrite 18:06, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
People telling the myth, it's the academic definition. We already went over this on the Mythology article. Try Webster's or any academic book on the topic, for starters. If they don't believe it's true then it's just fiction, which is a completely different animal and we might as well not even talk about myths. DreamGuy 18:15, August 23, 2005 (UTC)
Cite please. If I go look at Webster's, and it's not in there, can we take it out of the article? I want something that ends the discussion, cold. Hipocrite 18:17, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
Move from Talk:Mythology
See discussion there. JHCC (talk) 04:38, 29 December 2005 (UTC)