Fred Bauder (talk | contribs) →Ghirla rever / Petr pestering: '''Whoa''' |
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::::#My addition of links to [[Polish-Muscovite War (1605-1618)]] and the [[Truce of Deulino]]? And note that the article has not yet reached the 32kb limit from which splitting is advised. |
::::#My addition of links to [[Polish-Muscovite War (1605-1618)]] and the [[Truce of Deulino]]? And note that the article has not yet reached the 32kb limit from which splitting is advised. |
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::::#The fact that you [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Muscovy&diff=45238069&oldid=45126773 ignore bot spelling corrections] in your reverts is not going to do much to strenghten your case, btw.--[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] <sup><font color="green">[[User_talk:Piotrus|Talk]]</font></sup> 22:52, 24 March 2006 (UTC) |
::::#The fact that you [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Muscovy&diff=45238069&oldid=45126773 ignore bot spelling corrections] in your reverts is not going to do much to strenghten your case, btw.--[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] <sup><font color="green">[[User_talk:Piotrus|Talk]]</font></sup> 22:52, 24 March 2006 (UTC) |
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'''Whoa''' I'm not on anyone's side. Just don't spam the fact template. [[User:Fred Bauder|Fred Bauder]] 00:08, 25 March 2006 (UTC) |
Revision as of 00:08, 25 March 2006
Another example of "we were only defending ourselves" propaganda by Russians. Official language of Lithuania was Rusin. Kisiel, Rusin magnate was in Polish senate. Wisniowiecki was polonized Rusin. What political, ethnic and religious oppression was suffered by Ukrainians, compared to other ethnic groups in other countries? I would say they had it better under Polish rule and that's why they later signed Union of Halicz. szopen
Er...what triggered this comment? Graham Chapman
In 1648 most of Ukrainian society joined the Cossacks in a revolt because of the political, social, religious, and ethnic oppression suffered under Polish rule.
Ok, i overreacted a bit.
- Political: peasants nowhere in Europe had political rights.
- Social: peasants in all Central-Eastern Europe, with Russia included (after Perejslaw too) were oppressed and leaders of uprising don't care much about peasants too.
- religious: well, although level of tolerance in Poland in 1648 was still bigger than in most states of Europe, this is true that tolerance was lowered. But still orthodox can believe anything they want and their beliefs never were any obstacles.
- ethnic: Everyone, who was noble, had the same political rights. Everyone who was not, hadn't. Simple. Nothing to do with ethnicity, although it's true that most of noblemen was slowly polonized (but they weren't forced to do that!) so on Ukraine slowly situation came to point, were most of nobles was Polonized. szopen
- Now I see. Overreactions are sometimes useful (I have to say that, because I do it all the time!), and sweeping statements can be a problem. One of my tiny little worries about this material was its sort of classroom bias, where masses of social activity get condensed into 8 words because it was too hard to give a decent description.
- You or others will probably rewrite it better than I, but for what it's worth I'll add it to my list to try and add some balance, either in this article or by separate articles on the other states and societies that existed in the area. Graham Chapman
In the opener, the successor of Kievan Rus' on the northern lands of the empire, I need "empire" briefly disambiguated there: Byzantine? Wetman 20:23, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)
User:Marcus2 has replaced Muscovy with Russia in a number of articles, such as this one, Peter the Great and the Russian Empire, Imperial Russia, Boris Godunov. Is this a legitimate change? Or do they mean to refer to separate entities? I am not well-versed in this period. Rmhermen 22:09, Jun 30, 2004 (UTC)
- Yes, it is right replacement. The most precise denotion for the late mongol yuke times Russia is Muscovite Russia, but it is long. However, after reunification of Russia under Moscow (i.e. Muscovite) prince Ivan III the Great rule, "Muscovy" term was abandoned.
- Please refer to Russian History Harmonization wiki project and participate there. However, Marcus2 is not participant of this project, he/she corrects the problem independently. [[User:Drbug| Dr Bug]] 09:21, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Thanks but if it is complicated enough to need a "harmonization project" (I love that term.) I will leave it to ya. Rmhermen 13:14, Jul 1, 2004 (UTC)
No, absolutely incorrect! Before 1713 there was no state called Russia! There was a nation with a non-Slavic name (Finno-Ugric, perhaps) called "Muscovy" or "Moskva," formed by a Slavic kernel which assimilated a Finno-Ugric majority largely to speak the Old Church Slavonic language, which began as a state under Mongolian polity. In 1713, after gaining control of the Ruthenian regions of Belarus' and Kiev (Rus'propria or menora), Muscovy renamed itself "Russia," though it took Europe a while to accept the name change. In 1721, the name was changed again to the "Russian Empire." One might say, more generally (and with a broader perspective) "Russia, then called Muscovy. . ." There is no dispute that they are one and the same nation, though. Genyo 17:46, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- That is an invented story. The name "Russia" is not that young. Since Ivan the Terrible, or perhaps Ivan III, the Russian state no longer contained Moscow exclusively, so it was renamed Russia around that time. I'm siding with User:Drbug. Marcus2 13:14, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Oh, My God. Genyo means, the Whole World does know nothing about history of Russia, but only western Ukrainians and eastern Poles behold the Ancient Knowledge. I'm really tired by claims like this... :-( [[User:Drbug| Dr Bug]] 09:16, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Russian Imperialism can be very blinding! Let the locals tell their own story! Their neighbors are not more qualified, even if they think they are! Genyo 01:56, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Genyo, do you really believe that the words of a western Ukrainian or eastern Pole outweighs the word of an admin of the Russian Wikipedia who is more qualified to know the history of his own homeland? Marcus2 23:10, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)
dating
" In the 14th century, the grand princes of Muscovy began gathering Russian lands to increase the population and wealth under their rule. The most successful practitioner of this process was Ivan III (the Great; r. 1462-1505), who conquered Novgorod in 1478 and Tver' in 1485. " Should this sentence not begin with "in the 15th century"?
- It's really the 14th century, because Simeon and Dimitry both lived in 14th century... Dimitry doubled territory contraolled by Moscow. Dr Bug (Volodymyr V. Medeiko) 16:13, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Time of Troubles needs love
That brief mention of "a patriotic revival" against the Poles doesn't even name the only two figures who rightfully deserved a monument on the Red Square! The rise of the militia led by Kuzma Minin and Dmitry Pozharsky is considered by many historians as the first time the Russians realized themselves a nation and acted to confirm it.
Time of Trouble section split to a new article
The section content was moved to a new article Time of Troubles. This is a common practice at wiki. When a section grows too large, or has a potential to expand, it's moved to a new article. For example, this happened to the History of Russia before - it was split into a number of articles. Time of Troubles was such a section, which would likely see a lot of improvements. Splitting the section into an article seemed justified. It's also not such a good idea to maintain the full data in two places, thus I reduced the section to a short summary. The duplication of text is not productive. Nothing was "stolen" as User:Ghirlandajo wrote. So, if you object to splitting of the section into a new article, please use this talk page to justify your objections. --Gene s 08:54, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- I just think there is no need to snatch a section from a general article and insert it some other place. There's nothing extraordinary in the practice when some encyclopedia articles overlap and duplicate each other. The current edition of Britannica treats the Time of Troubles both in the History of Russia and in a separate article. It's not on to make the reader switch in the middle of reading Muscovy to the Time of Troubles. The article should be comprehesive, i.e. cover all the period of Muscovite history in equal detail. So please leave the Muscovy article as it is now. Ghirlandajo 10:25, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- I may be wrong, but I recall that Library of Congress data may be used freely under condition of preserving its integrity. Therefore new additions should go to the Time of Troubles, taken from the EB 1911. Ghirlandajo 10:27, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- The problem with duplication is just that - duplication. It's simply easier to maintain one good version of events than to maintain two versions in synch. Duplications seems to be a waste of effort for no gain. There is no malice, it's just convenience. Consider this: you made changes to Time of Troubles. Now it's different from the section in Muscovy. I.e. there are two slightly different versions of evens. The difference would drift bigger over time. I suggest we cull the section in Muscovy to a summary to avoid unnecessary duplication and wasted effort. This is Internet. It's easy to switch to a new article, and then to go back, unlike paper encyclopedia.
- Regarding EB 1911. Its copyright has expired. It's now in public domain. The same applies to any materials from the Library of Congress once their copiright expires. As soon as the copyright expires, the work enters public domain. It no longer belongs to anybody. Nobody can claim any control over use (or misuse) of the work. --Gene s 10:55, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- As best I can see, your main argument is that duplication would entail different versions of events. I see nothing criminal here. We cannot make the Wiki completely neutral. EB 1911 has been admired so much, because it was not neutral. "History of Russian" and "History of Poland" will always contain different versions of the same events. The more points of view the better, provided that there is no partisan bias in the articles. Ghirlandajo 11:03, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- We cannot make the Wiki completely neutral. True. But we can try. That's what WP:NPOV asks us to do. This is the basic principle and it should be followed. Forking articles according to--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:37, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC) one's POV does not help in producing a NPOV version of events.
- "History of Russian" and "History of Poland" will always contain different versions of the same events. that's exactly the thing we can avoid by using one article Time of Troubles and linking to it from two other places. As you correctly pointed out, currently there are three alternative versions of events. And it might increase, if, say History of Lithuania adds its own version. This is wrong because it wastes effort. The more points of view the better, provided that there is no partisan bias in the articles. yes, if they are in one article. But it's wrong to have three different articles with different account of events according to a specific POV. It voiolates wiki's basic princple WP:NPOV. --Gene s 11:30, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- As best I can see, your main argument is that duplication would entail different versions of events. I see nothing criminal here. We cannot make the Wiki completely neutral. EB 1911 has been admired so much, because it was not neutral. "History of Russian" and "History of Poland" will always contain different versions of the same events. The more points of view the better, provided that there is no partisan bias in the articles. Ghirlandajo 11:03, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- I may be wrong, but I recall that Library of Congress data may be used freely under condition of preserving its integrity. Therefore new additions should go to the Time of Troubles, taken from the EB 1911. Ghirlandajo 10:27, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
It is a normal Wikipedia process that when articles grow, they create their own subarticles, which previously could be a redirects or didn't exist at all. Often they are simple duplicates at first, but they are soon expanded. I expect the ToT subarticle to grow over time - surely it will one day be larger then 32kb and even now it has its own subarticles - well, related articles - like that on Dimitriads wars (btw, I invite you to read it and expand it, the battlebox is limited only to the First Dimitriad, for starters, and I'd love to read an article on the Moscow uprisings in 1606 and 1611). Finally, I expect that like the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth article, the Muscovy article will eventully evolve into a description of a country, not just its history, and will have an entirely separate history section. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:37, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)Insert non-formatted text here
Objective problems of Muscovy in 16-17 centuries
Ancient trading ways to the Baltic and Black seas were also closed by enemies, Livonian knights and Tatars.
Tatars invasions prevented development of southern regions where soils are better and the agricultural season is long enough, and it also strengthened taxation of peasants. Ben-Velvel 01:07, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
Vasili - Basil
I propose renaming all the Grand Dukes Vasili to Basil (Vasili III - Basil III, Vasili Tiomny - Basil the Dark, etc.) to fit in with the standard anglicization of monarchical names. Kazak 04:53, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
Ghirla rever / Petr pestering
Ghirla, please explain why do you insist on reverting me here.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 13:49, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
- Pan Piotr, I don't like your recent crusade against Russia-related articles which seems to aim on uglifying them with useless refs, which make the text virtually unreadable. Please stop. The article is taken from the Library of Congress Country Studies, which is a solid reference and an academic source in itself. If you want them to reference every word in their articles, please approach the authors of the article not other wikipedians, who have to waste their precious time - which could have been dedicated to creating new content - in order to repel your attacks and decluttering the pages from the mess you keep introducing. Please take a note that I don't edit Poland-related articles, and not pester them with ugly tags, but it seems too much to expect the same from yourself.
- For instance, what is the meaning of the pestering tag here - The Polish presence led to a patriotic [citation needed] revival among the Russians - what do you express doubts about? There are hundreds if not thousands monographs about that "partiotic revival" - please take 5 minutes of your time to check any work on the subject. Or - to put it another way - can you cite any reputable work on the subject which denies the "patiotic revival" that brought the Time of Troubles to an end?
- Likewise, I fail to see why you insist on including into this general article a link to Treaty of Deulino - rendered in Polish spelling for some incomprehensible reason - while we have main articles about the Time of Troubles and the Polish-Muscovite War, where the treaty and other details are mentioned. Your others edits - such as linking zemsky sobor which is already linked several lines above - make as little sense. From my past experience, I know that you are prone to endless and meaningless discussion. If your intention is to start such a pointless dispute here, I will deny your this favour. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia not a reference compilation or a chat room. I would like to spend my time doing something more useful than demonstrating the sloppiness of every other edit you make. Cheers, Ghirla -трёп- 15:07, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
- If only you could talk without personal attacks all the time... oh well. First, you may want to check Wikipedia:Inline citations. It's hard to verify what content remain taken from Library... source and what was added later, so in accordance with Wikipedia:WikiProject Fact and Reference Check we are moving towards inline citations. Now, of course, tagging every fact in the article (like you did here) is a clear violation of WP:POINT, but tagging a few facts which one thing would benefit from specific academic citation is perfectly appropriate. While I don't doubht that there are sources using the term 'patriotic revival', I'd like to see it tagged, and as I am not an expert on Muscovy I have a policy of letting experts on such topics (like you) provide the reference they think is best, instead of giving a random ref myself, which can as well be a respected scholar or some controversial upstart. While a second link to zemsky sobor may indeed be unecessary, I see no logical resaons for your revert of my link to Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, Polish-Muscovite War (1605-1618) or the Treaty of Dywilino (although you have a point that Deulion is a better spelling, given the Russian context). I do think that expantion with few details about Zygmunt wanting the trone and the name of Deulino is worthwile - the article is not too long currently.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 17:33, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
- Pan Piotrus, your understanding of what "inline citations" stand for has already been condemned by an Arbcom member. The worthy project of which you are a member is not an official guideline and I daresay your interpretation of its purpose is somewhat distorted. As for your precious additions, they are arbitary and intended to push a certain POV. I repeat that we have main articles for details, no need to move arbitrary selections from them into a general account of events. --Ghirla -трёп- 08:49, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
- I'll wait for reply from Fred on my talk page, where I have a chance to have a meaningful conversation with him without having my comments deleted. Now please explain how my specific edits (listed below) are POVed or overly detailed:
- replacing the link to Poland with a more specific link to the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth?
- asking for a citation for a weasel word phrase: Historians speculate that Godunov would have weathered this crisis - what historians?
- asking for a citation for that the Polish presence in Moscow led to the patriotic uprising? The usage of the word patriotic seems somewhat POVed to me here, as Malec (Szkice z dziejów federalizmu i myśli federalistycznych w czasach nowożytnych, "Unia Troista", Wydawnictwo UJ, 1999, Kraków, ISBN 8323312788) - whom you'll no doubt discard as a minor POVed Polish scholar - writes that the uprising was caused by a faction withing the Russian boyars who wanted to seize power for themselves, and that it became portrayed as a 'great patriotic rising' only in the later (19th c. and onwards) Russian historiography?
- My addition of links to Polish-Muscovite War (1605-1618) and the Truce of Deulino? And note that the article has not yet reached the 32kb limit from which splitting is advised.
- The fact that you ignore bot spelling corrections in your reverts is not going to do much to strenghten your case, btw.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 22:52, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
- I'll wait for reply from Fred on my talk page, where I have a chance to have a meaningful conversation with him without having my comments deleted. Now please explain how my specific edits (listed below) are POVed or overly detailed:
- Pan Piotrus, your understanding of what "inline citations" stand for has already been condemned by an Arbcom member. The worthy project of which you are a member is not an official guideline and I daresay your interpretation of its purpose is somewhat distorted. As for your precious additions, they are arbitary and intended to push a certain POV. I repeat that we have main articles for details, no need to move arbitrary selections from them into a general account of events. --Ghirla -трёп- 08:49, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
- If only you could talk without personal attacks all the time... oh well. First, you may want to check Wikipedia:Inline citations. It's hard to verify what content remain taken from Library... source and what was added later, so in accordance with Wikipedia:WikiProject Fact and Reference Check we are moving towards inline citations. Now, of course, tagging every fact in the article (like you did here) is a clear violation of WP:POINT, but tagging a few facts which one thing would benefit from specific academic citation is perfectly appropriate. While I don't doubht that there are sources using the term 'patriotic revival', I'd like to see it tagged, and as I am not an expert on Muscovy I have a policy of letting experts on such topics (like you) provide the reference they think is best, instead of giving a random ref myself, which can as well be a respected scholar or some controversial upstart. While a second link to zemsky sobor may indeed be unecessary, I see no logical resaons for your revert of my link to Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, Polish-Muscovite War (1605-1618) or the Treaty of Dywilino (although you have a point that Deulion is a better spelling, given the Russian context). I do think that expantion with few details about Zygmunt wanting the trone and the name of Deulino is worthwile - the article is not too long currently.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 17:33, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Whoa I'm not on anyone's side. Just don't spam the fact template. Fred Bauder 00:08, 25 March 2006 (UTC)