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Why are lying intelligence agencies considered credible and Assange is not
US intelligence falsified WMD to get US into Iraq, organized fake testimony about Iraqi soldiers killing babies in incubators, lied to congress about mass surveillance, funded Islamist extremists. Assange has never been proven guilty of spreading fake documents. If you are gonna turn Wikipedia into Pravda do it less obviously. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.217.24.239 (talk) 20:34, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
Lede
Seth Conrad Rich (January 3, 1989 – July 10, 2016) was an American employee of the Democratic National Committee (DNC) who was fatally shot in the Bloomingdale neighborhood of Washington, D.C.[1][2][3]
That's the lede to a biography, not to an event, and certainly doesn't summarize what the article is about. So, how about a change?--Calton | Talk 09:08, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
- Calton makes a good point. The lead (I am old school and refuse to use that newfangled spelling -- get off my lawn, you damn kids!) should be in the form of an event. how about:
- "The murder of Seth Rich occurred on Sunday, July 10, 2016, at 4:20 a.m. in the Bloomingdale neighborhood of Washington, D.C. Rich died from two shots to the back. Rich was an employee of the Democratic National Committee (DNC)."
- That's just off the top of my head and could be improved. in particular, I lost the middle name, which is undesirable. --Guy Macon (talk) 20:02, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
- I like Guy's version. There's only one problem: "Lede" is not a particularly new term, dating back to the 50's, when it was used to differentiate the lead paragraph from the leading. It doesn't make one whit of difference on WP which spelling you use, but I actually worked a summer in print as a teen, and learned to spell it like that from there. ;) ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 22:34, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
- It appears that "lede" was never used to differentiate the lead paragraph from the leading. It's fake retro-nostalgia.
- From Merriam Webster:[1] "Although evidence dates the spelling to the 1970s, we didn't enter lede in our dictionaries until 2008. For much of that time, it was mostly kept under wraps as in-house newsroom jargon."
- From Wictionary:[2] "Usage seems mostly confined to the U.S. Originally only journalistic usage that is now so common in general US English that it is no longer labeled as jargon by major US dictionaries such as Merriam-Webster and American Heritage. Noted as 'sometimes spelled' in 1959, 'often spelled' in 1969, and asserted in the 1979 reprint of a 1974 book (see Citations page). In 1990, William Safire was still able to say that 'lede' was jargon not listed in regular dictionaries."
- From Howard Owens:[3][4] "Early in my career somebody I obviously respected — can’t remember who now — told me the correct newspaper spelling of the opening of a newspaper story is 'lede.' There’s lot of romanticism and nostalgia in the newspaper industry for 'lede'... Today, our collection [of old journalism books] exceeds 400 titles. About 100 of the best of them are sitting at the moment immediately to my left. Some years ago, researching the evolution of 'objective journalism,' I cracked open many of these old books, and something struck me — in none of these old books did any author spell the word 'lede.' They all spell it 'lead.' It was then I realized, there is no historic basis for the spelling of a lead as 'lede.' 'Lede' is an invention of linotype romanticists, not something used in newsrooms of the linotype era. It’s really emblematic of today’s print nostalgia, too — like Desi and Lucy sleeping in separate beds — a longing for an America that never was, or wasn’t quite what you thought it was."
- Also see Lead vs. lede and tradition vs. substance. [5] --Guy Macon (talk) 02:54, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
- Our article claims the oldest use was in '59, which matches what I was told way back when (my teen years were in the '90's). But apparently, both were wrong. I'm off to make a certain edit, but thanks for looking that up! ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 03:20, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
- Also see Lead vs. lede and tradition vs. substance. [5] --Guy Macon (talk) 02:54, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
Just for the record, I originally picked up the term "lede" (and "graf") from a couple of college journalism classes in the late 80s -- and which I've used since then -- so being in use for at least 40 years is no-way "newfangled" as far as I'm concerned. I have to say, it's a strange hill to want to die on.
Meanwhile: the lede for this article? --Calton | Talk 03:46, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
- Support: "The murder of Seth Rich occurred on Sunday, July 10, 2016, at 4:20 a.m. in the Bloomingdale neighborhood of Washington, D.C. Rich died from two shots to the back. Rich was an employee of the Democratic National Committee (DNC)." StreetSign (talk) 11:43, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
Nope. This is about a crime: what does Rich having been an employee of a particular organization have to do with anything? --Calton | Talk 02:03, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
- Although I had that in my original top-of-my-head proposal above, now that you bring it up, where he was employed is irrelevant. I say take it out. --Guy Macon (talk) 03:32, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
- What facts belong in the article is determined by what reliable sources decide is relevant, per Balancing aspects. Incidentally, biographical information about crime victims is always included in crime stories, whether or not it was known by the perpetrator[s]. Otherwise, I agree with the change in phrasing. I don't see though why we should mention he was an American, since the assumption is that people born in and living in the U.S. are U.S. citizens. TFD (talk) 13:31, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
- What facts belong in the article is determined by what reliable sources decide is relevant...
- That's nice. Also irrelevant, since what's being discussed is the lede, not the article overall. --Calton | Talk 14:13, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
- News media routinely say that Seth Rich was employed by the DNC when they first mention him. See for example, the first sentence in this recent article from CBS: "A judge in the Southern District of New York dismissed a lawsuit against Fox News by parents of murdered Democratic National Committee employee Seth Rich...."[6] Neutrality requires us to use the same emphasis on facts as reliable sources. TFD (talk) 16:23, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
Proposal
Per the lengthy requested move discussion, and per WP:ONEWAY, I propose creating a new, separate article about the conspiracy theories specifically. I have not prepared a title for the article, but it should contain "conspiracy theories". wumbolo ^^^ 20:56, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
- I do not see the point. The "conspiracy theories" are an important part of the subject and should be mentioned here. Even the Assassination of John F. Kennedy has a conspiracies section and that case was conclusively solved. On the other hand, there is very little detail about these theories in reliable sources, so it would be hard to expand the material. TFD (talk) 23:06, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
- That article has only three paragraphs on conspiracy theories. See WP:ONEWAY. wumbolo ^^^ 00:49, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
- WP:ONEWAY says nothing about whether we should break conspiracy theories off into their own articles. I do not support this, because it's really only the conspiracy theories that made this event notable. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 02:02, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
- That article has only three paragraphs on conspiracy theories. See WP:ONEWAY. wumbolo ^^^ 00:49, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
No. The only reason this article exists is because of the conspiracy theories. --Calton | Talk 07:25, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
- That does not appear to be true. The early news stories that reported the murder of Seth Rich did not contain any conspiracy theories, yet it was still news.
19 July 2016 washingtonpost story on murder of Seth Rich When do you think the earliest Seth Rich conspiracy story appeared? StreetSign (talk) 00:11, 24 August 2018 (UTC)
- WaPo is local to Washington D.C. The murder occurred in Washinton D.C. Does that make every murder reported on by local newspapers notable? I don't think so. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 03:40, 24 August 2018 (UTC)
- According to Wikipedia, Washinton Post "has a particular emphasis on national politics", and "has won 47 Pulitzer Prizes". Its slogan is "Democracy Dies in Darkness". Your attempt to classify it as a local newspaper is unsuccessful. The Murder of Seth Rich has been reported by CNN, Foxnews, Newsweek, and many others. Does it seem unusual for a robbery victim to be shot in the back (twice), and have nothing taken? StreetSign (talk) 02:25, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
- Your attempt to classify it as a local newspaper is unsuccessful
- No, the term you're looking for is "factual": whatever coverage the Post does on its political and national pages, it is, when it comes to events in the Metro Washington area, a local paper covering purely local events. The Sports section, for example, doesn't cover the LA Dodgers or the Seattle Seahawks; it covers the Washington Nationals and the Washington Redskins. The Post doesn't review concerts in Denver or restaurants in Santa Fe, attend city council meetings in Austin, report on traffic accidents in Miami, or cover public transit issues in San Jose. And WTF does Pulitzer Prizes have to do with whether a paper covers local news? The Point Reyes Light won a damned Pulitzer Prize.
- It was also picked up by CNN[7] and Fox News,[8] and People Magazine covered the funeral.[9] This is the type of case that draws attention in crime news reporting: middle class person killed by a person or persons unknown. TFD (talk) 16:29, 25 August 2018 (UTC)-
- Those are better, but I don't think there's enough there to build an article on. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 02:09, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
- It's the same with any unsolved crime or other unpredictable event. Whether or not they become notable depends on ongoing news coverage. There would be no article about the Shooting of Trayvon Martin for example had news media decided not to follow up on the original story. Whether or not they should provide any coverage at all to these cases is irrelevant. TFD (talk) 02:26, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
- That seems to confirm what Calton said above. All the ongoing coverage seemed to focus on the conspiracy theories. This wasn't something like the murder of JonBenet Ramsey, where there was persistent focus on the investigation and surrounding events. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 04:02, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
- It's the same with any unsolved crime or other unpredictable event. Whether or not they become notable depends on ongoing news coverage. There would be no article about the Shooting of Trayvon Martin for example had news media decided not to follow up on the original story. Whether or not they should provide any coverage at all to these cases is irrelevant. TFD (talk) 02:26, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
- Those are better, but I don't think there's enough there to build an article on. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 02:09, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
- It was also picked up by CNN[7] and Fox News,[8] and People Magazine covered the funeral.[9] This is the type of case that draws attention in crime news reporting: middle class person killed by a person or persons unknown. TFD (talk) 16:29, 25 August 2018 (UTC)-
News media have written extensively on the case, publishing extensive details on the biography of the victim, his activities immediately before the shooting, time and cause of death, medical treatment, statements by DNC and family members, police press conference, etc. The only reason the conspiracy theories have attracted attention is that the homicide was extensively covered. In the JonBenet Ramsey case, there was in fact a great deal of unwarranted speculation in tabloids and police were never able to uncover any useful evidence. And see "5 JonBenet Conspiracy Theories That Are As Confusing As They Are Fascinating". That was written 20 years after the murder. TFD (talk) 04:58, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
- Make a draft then, if you think there's enough coverage. If you can fill out a couple sections with material without relying on CS coverage, that'd be a step towards proving me wrong. (Try to avoid using any articles that focus on the CSes, as well.) Otherwise, I'm going to stand by my statement that there's not enough info to justify an article just on the murder. Unlike JonBenet, there hasn't been a pair of perennial prime suspects, a revolving door of secondary suspects, false confessions, etc, etc. Even if there is enough info to justify a full article, then you'd have to show that this info would have been published even if the conspiracy theories hadn't hit mainstream news coverage. Hence why I suggested avoiding using sources that focus on the CSs, because sources that ignore them or barely mention them are more likely to have been published regardless of the conspiracy theories. But sources on the CSs that happen to mention real details would quite obviously not have been published were it not for the CSs.
- I would also point out that your link still evinced my point: It took 20 years to build up enough conspiracy theories around JonBenet's murder to merit an article on them. Now, if you find a source like that dated to within 2 years of the murder, you're making a point. Find 20 or so (we have way more than that on the Seth Rich CSs, but the internet was in it's infancy at the time of JonBenet's death) and you're making a really compelling point. But absent that, there's a clear difference in how these two murders came to public attention. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 15:18, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
- I don't need to draft an article since it already exists. The first four sections are about the murder and the fifth about conspiracy theories. However much of the fifth section is inseparable from the first four. We cannot for example expunge the information that Wheeler investigated the case on behalf of the family just because of his findings and we cannot remove the fact the family sued Fox. TFD (talk) 18:32, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
- I don't really disagree with that. Just so we're clear: I'm still opposed to forking this article into a "murder" and "conspiracy theories" pair of articles. I suspect you are, too. Is that correct? ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 21:00, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
- @MjolnirPants: just to make it clear, if the conspiracy theories are taken out of this article, we would still talk about their consequences and impact on the investigation process. wumbolo ^^^ 21:57, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
- Wumbolo, this proposal has only gotten support from a single account with a history of pushing conspiracy theories. I don't think that it's likely to happen. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 13:51, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
- @MjolnirPants:, I agree the facts and the conspiracy theories at this point cannot be separated out into two distinct articles. While I agree that conspiracy theorizing has been the major reason for extensive coverage of the case, I think that the case would have received attention regardless. If the case is solved, i.e., the actual killer or killers are identified, we can review splitting the article. TFD (talk) 16:07, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
I think that the case would have received attention regardless.
It might have, we can't ever really know. I just briefly got the impression you were arguing for the split, even though you'd already said quite clearly above that you didn't support it. That was just me being being a dumbass, so don't pay too much heed to it.- If the passage of time and future developments result in more attention being paid to the murder/investigation/aftermath, then I'm open to revisiting this question at that time. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 16:24, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
- @MjolnirPants: just to make it clear, if the conspiracy theories are taken out of this article, we would still talk about their consequences and impact on the investigation process. wumbolo ^^^ 21:57, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
- I don't really disagree with that. Just so we're clear: I'm still opposed to forking this article into a "murder" and "conspiracy theories" pair of articles. I suspect you are, too. Is that correct? ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 21:00, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
- I don't need to draft an article since it already exists. The first four sections are about the murder and the fifth about conspiracy theories. However much of the fifth section is inseparable from the first four. We cannot for example expunge the information that Wheeler investigated the case on behalf of the family just because of his findings and we cannot remove the fact the family sued Fox. TFD (talk) 18:32, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
I oppose the creation of a separate article. I don't want a fork. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 16:36, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
I also oppose the creation of a separate article on the conspiracy theories. There is already excessive space given to the conspiracy theories in this article, to the point that it makes it more difficult to ascertain the facts. The Murder of Seth Rich article should instead focus primarily on the facts. To simultaneously exclude facts while including conspiracy theories is not justifiable. StreetSign (talk) 20:13, 27 August 2018 (UTC)