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*'''Shooting''' - Per [[WP:COMMONNAME]]; after glancing at the sources briefly, it seems more commonly referred to as a "shooting" than a murder. To [[User:TonyTheTiger|Tony's]] and [[User:Adoring nanny|nanny's]] points; the fact that it was murder doesn't mean that it wasn't a shooting. [[User:NickCT|NickCT]] ([[User talk:NickCT|talk]]) 18:01, 26 November 2019 (UTC) |
*'''Shooting''' - Per [[WP:COMMONNAME]]; after glancing at the sources briefly, it seems more commonly referred to as a "shooting" than a murder. To [[User:TonyTheTiger|Tony's]] and [[User:Adoring nanny|nanny's]] points; the fact that it was murder doesn't mean that it wasn't a shooting. [[User:NickCT|NickCT]] ([[User talk:NickCT|talk]]) 18:01, 26 November 2019 (UTC) |
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*'''Murder''' as per Adoring Nanny [[User:Bacondrum|Bacondrum]] ([[User talk:Bacondrum|talk]]) 23:51, 3 December 2019 (UTC) |
*'''Murder''' as per Adoring Nanny [[User:Bacondrum|Bacondrum]] ([[User talk:Bacondrum|talk]]) 23:51, 3 December 2019 (UTC) |
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::{{replyto|Bacondrum}} the [[Keystone (architecture)|capstone]] of your argument rests on user [[User:Adoring nanny|Adoring nanny]], who is unable to express the adjudication of [[Trial of George Zimmerman|T. Martin/George Z.]] Perhaps one should rethink the logic. '''SEE ABOVE''' |
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:::That is an obnoxious claim about Adoring Nanny's understanding of the subject and borders on being a [[WP:PERSONALATTACK]], I personally feel that it is [[WP:UNCIVIL]]. You're going to get on other editors nerves very quickly with these snide and pretentious comments...even if you sign off "respectfully". [[User:Bacondrum|Bacondrum]] ([[User talk:Bacondrum|talk]]) 07:43, 5 December 2019 (UTC) |
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*'''Shooting''' as per |
*'''Shooting''' as per |
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**[[Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#Naming]] = Wikipedia policy |
**[[Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#Naming]] = Wikipedia policy |
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I also noted some arguments made about consistency, that other articles are titled "shooting of" rather than "Murder of", so this articles title should too, however that is a [[furphy]]. Most articles use "Murder of" which seems to be the obvious and better choice, I mean what do we do in the case of [[Agathocles of Syracuse]] who was murdered by use of a poisoned toothpick? "The toothpick poisoning of Agathocles of Syracuse" sounds rather stupid, I'm sure there are plenty of murder methods that would make a jarring title. In regards to consistency of titles, Murder of is the correct [[Special:PrefixIndex/Murder_of|prefix]] - there are thousands, maybe tens of thousands of articles with 'Murder of" in the title. |
I also noted some arguments made about consistency, that other articles are titled "shooting of" rather than "Murder of", so this articles title should too, however that is a [[furphy]]. Most articles use "Murder of" which seems to be the obvious and better choice, I mean what do we do in the case of [[Agathocles of Syracuse]] who was murdered by use of a poisoned toothpick? "The toothpick poisoning of Agathocles of Syracuse" sounds rather stupid, I'm sure there are plenty of murder methods that would make a jarring title. In regards to consistency of titles, Murder of is the correct [[Special:PrefixIndex/Murder_of|prefix]] - there are thousands, maybe tens of thousands of articles with 'Murder of" in the title. |
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The courts decreed they were murdered, the title should reflect that fact, not the method of murder. Looking through articles titled "shooting of" it seems this title is [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:PrefixIndex?prefix=Shooting+of&namespace=0|is used far less often] and almost only when there is no conviction. [[User:Bacondrum|Bacondrum]] ([[User talk:Bacondrum|talk]]) 21:33, 4 December 2019 (UTC) |
The courts decreed they were murdered, the title should reflect that fact, not the method of murder. Looking through articles titled "shooting of" it seems this title is [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:PrefixIndex?prefix=Shooting+of&namespace=0|is used far less often] and almost only when there is no conviction. [[User:Bacondrum|Bacondrum]] ([[User talk:Bacondrum|talk]]) 21:33, 4 December 2019 (UTC) |
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*'''Comment''' {{replyto|Bacondrum}} the logic behind your reasoning is [[Informal fallacy|fallacious]], unpersuasive and not solid by any means. '''By your own account''': |
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** [[WP:COMMONNAME]] is from '''MOST''' sources. Those sources which are referenced in the [[Murder of Laquan McDonald|Shooting of Laquan McDonald]] more commonly refer to it as "Shooting" by a ratio of '''8:1''', from a total of [[Shooting of Laquan McDonald|153 references in the article]]. The breakdown is as follows: |
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***'''Shooting''' = '''48''' |
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***Killing = 9 |
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***'''Murder''' = '''6''' |
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***Shooting Death = 2 |
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***Slaying = 1 |
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***Execution = 1 |
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***No use of term = 86 |
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**More importantly, the logical reasoning is as follows: |
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***[[Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#Naming]] = Wikipedia policy |
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***[[Wikipedia:Article titles#Neutrality in article titles]] = titles of articles MUST conform to Wikipedia policy |
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***[[Wikipedia:Neutral point of view|Neutral Point Of View]] = Wikipedia policy. |
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: In conclusion, your [[Faulty generalization|jumping to conclusions]] is [[Informal fallacy|fallacious]] at best, and half-baked at worst, as is the use of personal slang terms. Please abide by [[Wikipedia:Five pillars|Wikipedia's guidelines and policies]] and [[Wikipedia:Civility|resond to your fellow Wikipedians without personal slang phrases]], even when you disagree. Also, apply Wikipedia [[Wikipedia:Etiquette|journalistic etiquette]]. This is not a blog and therefore, is governed by [[Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines]]. Perhaps, more apropos than Agathocles in this case, is the argument for renaming the title found in the [[Trial of Socrates]]; I am a classicist by training; this is my metier. Respectfully, Eli [[User:Bigeez|Bigeez]] ([[User talk:Bigeez|talk]]) 23:41, 4 December 2019 (UTC) |
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::What you do for a living is beyond irrelevant, stick to the content. Furphy is a common usage word in Australian English - focus on the content not me... and besides, a word like furphy is no more of an issue than pretentious and tedious insertions of French vocab. Arguing from fallacy?...yawn. We are not looking to WP:commonname here and I don't care what you think of my argument, I care about the guidelines. The guidelines are crystal clear: [[WP:CRITERIA]] "Murder of" is the correct [[Special:PrefixIndex/Murder_of|prefix]] in terms of consistency with other articles. There's also a compelling essay about the prefix [[Wikipedia:"Murder of" articles|here]] if you care to read up rather than insult. [[User:Bacondrum|Bacondrum]] ([[User talk:Bacondrum|talk]]) 07:31, 5 December 2019 (UTC) |
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Just to let everybody know, I have posted about this Request for Comment at the Neutral Point of View Noticeboard, inviting interested editors to join in the discussion here. You can see what I said at [[Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard#Murder of Laquan McDonald]]. (It's possible that some editors will comment there, but I've requested them to comment here instead, to keep the discussion all in one place.) <span style="font-family: cursive;">— [[User:Mudwater|Mudwater]]<small><sup> ([[User talk:Mudwater|Talk]])</sup></small></span> 11:30, 5 December 2019 (UTC) |
Just to let everybody know, I have posted about this Request for Comment at the Neutral Point of View Noticeboard, inviting interested editors to join in the discussion here. You can see what I said at [[Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard#Murder of Laquan McDonald]]. (It's possible that some editors will comment there, but I've requested them to comment here instead, to keep the discussion all in one place.) <span style="font-family: cursive;">— [[User:Mudwater|Mudwater]]<small><sup> ([[User talk:Mudwater|Talk]])</sup></small></span> 11:30, 5 December 2019 (UTC) |
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Untitled
Tons of news sources here if anyone wants to write moreVictor Grigas (talk) 00:53, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
mugshots and charging documents
Here are some mugshot images, IDK if they are PD or not, but there must be some out there Victor Grigas (talk) 03:22, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
Is the video Public Domain?
Is the video Public Domain? What did the judge order it to be? Victor Grigas (talk) 07:31, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
Most important aspect missing
In typical Wikipedia fashion, the most important aspect of this case is missing from the article, namely, why did it take more than a year for the wheels of justice to move an inch? Is it because the victim was black? Viriditas (talk) 03:43, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
- WP editors shouldn't be speculating about whether or not this or that reason which comes to the mind of an editor might have figured into the amount of time the investigation took. This source says that Cook County State's Attorney Anita Alvarez has said that investigations of police shootings are "highly complex" and can take as long as 20 months. That source also says that Robert Milan, a former Cook County prosecutor who ran against Alvarez in 2008, disagrees and that Ronald Safer, a Chicago attorney and former federal prosecutor, said he could imagine an investigation into a police shooting spanning a few months but not a year. It also says that other former prosecutors said it's unfair for outsiders to second-guess the length of the investigation (WP editors would would fall into the category of "outsiders").
- I don't agree that identifying the factors which caused this investigation to take as long as it did is the most important aspect of this case, but it does seem to me that the article should mention this. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 05:51, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
- I totally agree that it probably should mention this, but Wikipedia is NOT a primary source of knowledge, you need references. So please find that journalism and summarize it and cite it! Victor Grigas (talk) 04:37, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
- Are you joking? The inordinate length of time for the video to be released and the case to resolve to this point is the primary focus of every major article on the subject. Yet when I complained up above, that major point had been deliberately avoided from being mentioned in this article. Don't you dare school me on the policies. Viriditas (talk) 02:13, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
- I totally agree that it probably should mention this, but Wikipedia is NOT a primary source of knowledge, you need references. So please find that journalism and summarize it and cite it! Victor Grigas (talk) 04:37, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
Here are some more policies that I will dare to name:
- Assume Good Faith
- Be Civil
- And if it needs to be done, Do it
And no, I'm not joking, so please don't ask. - Boneyard90 (talk) 23:50, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
Bias / BLP / Encyclopedic Tone
I read through the article just now, and was a bit disappointed to see that it overall has the tone of a moderate hit piece on Jason Van Dyke and the Chicago PD. I realize that a lot of things that the PD did later aren't in line with policy or 100% in line with the event sequence. However, they are generally in line with the events. (That doesn't excuse those failures, but those aren't failures in this specific case, but an overall departmental problem.)
There is a big difference between a kid playing innocently in a public park (like Tamir Rice) or a man shopping innocently in Walmart with his girlfriend (like John Crawford) versus a guy who is running around with a knife, cutting tires and generally acting crazy. Its entirely possible that if he was on PCP, he was completely unaware of what he was doing. Some police officers obviously react different than others. The biggest question would be what other outcome was to be expected here with a guy carrying a knife in this manner? A taser was mentioned, but for whatever reason one wasn't on scene yet. Do you wait until he starts approaching some citizens with this knife or not?
I think bigger question here is what police officers are being trained to do in this situations, along with plain human instinct. That is obviously a question for another article. The choices in this article of what was included and how it is presented, give a tone of "cops are shady and violent". Yet there is no reporting or research within the article to support that. Some might say "but it is obvious!" and I say if it is so obvious, but that information into the article along with everything else. -- Avanu (talk) 20:23, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
- I totally agree - we should mention CPD training. Can you find a CPD police training manual? I'd love to cite it!! I seriously doubt that any manual would say it's ok to unload your whole clip on someone who is walking away from you, especially if you have only been on the scene for only 30 seconds. Mr. McDonald hit the ground after the first (few?) shots, why keep shooting? So I've been trying to write each sentence with a citation to back up each fact, since there are details (like the number of videos that exist) that keep changing. Victor Grigas (talk) 04:45, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
- Just found this, maybe something is in it?Victor Grigas (talk) 04:46, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
- Found it :
- Just found this, maybe something is in it?Victor Grigas (talk) 04:46, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
- Article IX under "Standards of Conduct":
- "Members of the Chicago Police Department are confronted daily with situations where firm control must be exercised to effect arrests and protect the public safety. Control is achieved through advice, persuasion, warnings or the use of physical force. While the use of reasonable physical force may be necessary in situations which cannot be otherwise controlled, force may not be resorted to unless other reasonable alternatives have been exhausted or would clearly be ineffective under the particular circumstances involved. Officers are permitted to use whatever force is reasonable and necessary to protect others or themselves from bodily harm. The use of excessive and unwarranted force or brutality will not be tolerated under any circumstances." Victor Grigas (talk) 05:57, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
- Couple of problems. First, this is a primary source. We need Wikipedia's definition of Reliable Sources to include information from the CPD manual. Secondly, (this is why a RS is needed) the use of force is contingent upon the circumstances and what an officer believes might happen. Guy running and then skipping along after having already used his knife makes it a very dicey situation. Our reliable sources say they were trying to corral the guy sort of. But they don't tell us what the end game was supposed to be. What was the plan of the police? Just wear the guy down until he falls over from exhaustion? How long before the taser was due to arrive? Did this information get communicated to the officers in the field?
- Overall, this story seems more prominent for its connection to BLM protesters than the actual story itself. A Vietnamese-ancestry man was just shot in Los Angeles after calling 911 to report an assault, but I don't see anyone getting on his side. Again, I point back to the tone of this story. The tone sounds very much like Laquan McDonald was victimized rather than setting up events in such a way that he was almost guaranteed to end up shot, despite a generous reading of CPD policy. Wikipedia is not supposed to be a vehicle for biased coverage. -- Avanu (talk) 07:59, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- This shooting is notable precisely because of the large public reaction and extensive media coverage. You may view that reaction as disproportionate, as you seem to, but justified or not, it makes the event notable. Also, nothing precludes you or anyone else from starting an article about the shooting you mention—the lack of such an article does not itself impact the notability of this one. As far as the BLM protests generally, they are certainly related, and that relation should be documented in each article. Events that are significant only in broader historical terms nonetheless frequently have their own articles. For example, the Boston Massacre is probably only notable because American revolutionaries seized on the event for its propaganda value—it is, however, notable nonetheless. Acone (talk) 23:59, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
- The scale of reaction is not relevant to whether we have an article, as you pointed out. Wikipedia has clear guidelines and this event has passed that test. As I said initially, my concern is more with the tone of the article, rather than the particular people that are players within this tale. -- Avanu (talk) 02:29, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- This shooting is notable precisely because of the large public reaction and extensive media coverage. You may view that reaction as disproportionate, as you seem to, but justified or not, it makes the event notable. Also, nothing precludes you or anyone else from starting an article about the shooting you mention—the lack of such an article does not itself impact the notability of this one. As far as the BLM protests generally, they are certainly related, and that relation should be documented in each article. Events that are significant only in broader historical terms nonetheless frequently have their own articles. For example, the Boston Massacre is probably only notable because American revolutionaries seized on the event for its propaganda value—it is, however, notable nonetheless. Acone (talk) 23:59, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
Copy editing template
As of the current revision, the writing quality appears consistent with that of other articles, so I'm removing the flag. If there are outstanding concerns, let's talk about them here.
Image name in InfoBox
Can someone please change the name of the image used in the InfoBox? It has a typo: protestors -> protesters. The name is currently "LAQUAN McDonald Chicago memorial from protestors.jpg". This typo occurred a few times in the article, which I fixed, but I don't know much about going about changing the names of pictures, and if this would break anything else using the picture, etc. Thank you! Belltoes (talk) 21:42, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
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"the responding officers didn't also shoot"
The penultimate sentence under the "Shooting" heading states "The first responding officer stated that he did not see the need to use force and none of the at least eight other officers on the scene fired their weapons." Nowhere does the article state that Van Dyke wasn't the first officer to respond, nor whether or not he was in the path of McDonald -- both of which are essential to understanding the case. If Van Dyke was in McDonald's path, his use of lethal force to stop a suspect who refused to drop his weapon, would likely be justified. If Van Dyke had shot McDonald and the "eight other officers on the scene" had fired their weapons, what would that prove? It's likely that they did not see the need to do so, given that any threat from McDonald was probably negated by having already been shot, so what is the point of making that statement? This isn't WP:OR; it's an observation about how confusingly the sentence is written. It needs to be either rewritten to conform with WP:NPOV or removed. 01:04, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
POV in section "Burger King surveillance video"
The section titled "Burger King surveillance video" repeatedly violates WP:NPOV. To wit: "...86 minutes of that footage of the shooting is missing." First, unless the recording media was videotape (as in VHS or some similar media that uses actual tape), it's not "footage"; "footage" only refers to such media as can be measured in feet. If the video recorder they use is a DVR, as most security video systems are nowadays, it's not "footage", it's "files" or "time". Second, the term "missing" suggests that something that once existed has been lost or removed, but neither of which is necessarily the case. If a video camera system using a DVR has a gap in a given recording period, that doesn't mean that files or time are necessarily "missing"; it could just as readily be because equipment was not turned on, was malfunctioning, or a number of other reasons. Saying that "footage" is "missing" displays a clear bias towards some kind of intentional tampering -- the very thing that the FBI uncategorically states that there is no evidence to support. (And the FBI is very unlikely to be colluding with the Chicago P.D. in some kind of conspiracy.) Third, the final sentence in the section states "The Tribune later obtained footage showing a Chicago police employee working on the restaurant's computers after the shooting". The phrase "working on" is biased as it suggests that efforts were being expended to do something. If I am looking through the files on my home security system's video recordings, I am not "working on" the monitor, the keyboard or the computer; I am simply reviewing the files. There is no question that a member of the Chicago P.D. was indeed seated at the Burger King's security camera video terminal. But was he "working on" it, or reviewing video on it? With the information provided here, we can't tell, so it's POV to claim the he was intentionally doing something to or with the files, beyond simply viewing them. Consequently, I propose that the sentences in question be revised as follows: "There was also a security camera at a nearby Burger King restaurant that may have captured the shooting, but during the time of the shooting, there is a gap of 86 minutes" and "The Tribune later obtained video showing a Chicago police employee viewing video files on the restaurant's computers after the shooting". Bricology (talk) 05:52, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
- Agreed, fix the issues. InsertCleverPhraseHere 06:26, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
- Done. I also changed the phrase "there were gaps all over the surveillance video" to the more proper "there were gaps throughout the surveillance video". Bricology (talk) 14:22, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
- I disagree. We have to follow the source which does say "working on". The source doesn't even provide the video either, so even if we wanted to use WP:OR, we can't actually do so since we have no idea if the video shows the police simply viewing the files or appear to be doing more. Technically viewing video is "working on" a computer anyway although I agree most people may not appreciate this. However "viewing video" is actually worse, because deleting files for example is not even technically viewing video (one would assume viewing before deletion but it's possible this didn't happen or isn't shown in the video seen by the Tribune) so by changing it to viewing video we are actually completely biasing it in one direction whereas working is technically true for all possibilities. Personally, I would prefer something like "at the computer" or "using the computer" but we need a source for that. I'm not opposed to quoting the working part if people would prefer that. Since the Tribune are the ones who viewed the video, and I'm not sure if other sources have seen it, it may be the Tribune source is the best source we have. Nil Einne (talk) 06:07, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
- I see a part was removed [1] which I've added back. No explanation was offered for this removal but I do see a problem with it namely that it's quoting sourced within the FBI but it's now been over a year. Have the FBI released an official report which confirms what the sources say, are they waiting for the trial, or is there something else? Nil Einne (talk) 06:21, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
Repetitive info?
Under the section Van Dyke's Trial, it states: "Van Dyke had a history of complaints in his police career but was cleared in most cases." Is this necessary when the complaints were already mentioned earlier under the Profiles section? The relevant portion also elaborates on what the various complaints involved, unlike the one-liner I quoted. TKY (talk) 19:06, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
Timeline of Van Dyke charges
Hi, the charges against Van Dyke came a few hours before the video was released. The wiki says it was after.
"Van Dyke was charged with first-degree murder a few hours after the video's release." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jasmorris5 (talk • contribs) 16:09, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
Edit article to reflect distance in time
The article was written as news was developing and clearly shows journalistic influence - quotes, political positioning, etc. Now that some time has passed, it would be useful to compress some of the information to make the tone of this article more encyclopedic and neutral.Parkwells (talk) 18:17, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
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- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20151127214055/http://www.fox21online.com/news/local-news/graphic-video-released-of-chicago-fatal-officerinvolved-shooting/36643788 to http://www.fox21online.com/news/local-news/graphic-video-released-of-chicago-fatal-officerinvolved-shooting/36643788
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20151221233455/http://chicago.suntimes.com/news/7/71/1192113/1-million-per-shot-laquan-mcdonald-settlement-unfolded-initial-demand to http://chicago.suntimes.com/news/7/71/1192113/1-million-per-shot-laquan-mcdonald-settlement-unfolded-initial-demand
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20151128230431/http://media.trb.com/media/acrobat/2015-11/23670027186520-27135425.pdf to http://media.trb.com/media/acrobat/2015-11/23670027186520-27135425.pdf
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20151125190221/http://directives.chicagopolice.org/lt2015/data/a7a57bf0-12dc41eb-af712-dc48-ff1427a411b25de4.html to http://directives.chicagopolice.org/lt2015/data/a7a57bf0-12dc41eb-af712-dc48-ff1427a411b25de4.html
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20160222183849/http://chicago.suntimes.com/news/7/71/1190969/22-police-shootings-audio to http://chicago.suntimes.com/news/7/71/1190969/22-police-shootings-audio
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20160103053131/http://chicago.suntimes.com/news/7/71/1218394/emanuel-office-laquan-mcdonald-shooting-emails to http://chicago.suntimes.com/news/7/71/1218394/emanuel-office-laquan-mcdonald-shooting-emails
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Updated status of the case
Updated the charges laid against Van Dyke in the "trial" section and then updated the "aftermath" section to reflect recommended firings of involved police officers and charges laid against 3 officers in connection with this case. I was not able to find any mention of the trial happening or the trial schedule. A previous talk entry asked why this case was progressing so slowly, and I would tend to agree. We are now approaching 3 years after the shooting and I cannot remember another murder trial proceeding at this glacial pace. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bruceki (talk • contribs) 21:36, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
Van Dyke is the First Chicago officer convicted for an on duty shooting in nearly 50 years
See here [2] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:447:4101:41F9:1009:2EA6:8215:6305 (talk) 21:51, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
Van Dyke's bail has been revoked and he is now in custody
Please include this into the article[3]. With his bail revoked, he immediately began serving whatever future sentence is handed2601:447:4101:41F9:1009:2EA6:8215:6305 (talk) 23:09, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
It is confirmed that Van Dyke was taken into custody following the verdict.[4] Please include this in the article.2601:447:4101:41F9:1009:2EA6:8215:6305 (talk) 23:42, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
Proposal to move to Murder of Laquan McDonald
The guy who did this has been found guilty of murder, so we might as well move it there.
2605:A601:6400:500:D10F:366A:2727:B9F7 (talk) 19:23, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
I was coming to the talk page to propose the same thing. This is legally now a murder. What do other editors think? †Basilosauridae❯❯❯Talk 15:38, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
- There hasn't been any dissenting opinions, so I'm going to be WP:BOLD and move it. If there is any disagreement, I'm happy to discuss here. †Basilosauridae❯❯❯Talk 14:38, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
- Strongly suggest posting an RfC about it. I would personally support such a move, @Basilosauridae:, but I could see a move war breaking out without an established consensus. StrikerforceTalk 14:42, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks for your feedback. I didn't know RfCs could be used in situations where disagreement doesn't currently exist. If there is any resistance to the change, I will not move-war and will move to an RfC. †Basilosauridae❯❯❯Talk 14:45, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
- You + one does not equal consensus. The thread was started late in the evening on Friday of a holiday weekend in the U.S., when there may not have been as many people participating around this article as would be considered normal. It would have been better to either post an RfC or give more time to for folks to respond here, especially with the original page still being under protection until later today. StrikerforceTalk 14:55, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks for your feedback. I didn't know RfCs could be used in situations where disagreement doesn't currently exist. If there is any resistance to the change, I will not move-war and will move to an RfC. †Basilosauridae❯❯❯Talk 14:45, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
- Strongly suggest posting an RfC about it. I would personally support such a move, @Basilosauridae:, but I could see a move war breaking out without an established consensus. StrikerforceTalk 14:42, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
I understand what you're saying, like I said I will move to an RfC and not war if disagreement arises. Just for the record, I'm unaware of the holiday weekend you are referring to. ok ok Columbus day, I get you. †Basilosauridae❯❯❯Talk 15:53, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
Just commenting here: I doubt that an RfC is called for, and in fact I think that WP:RMUM may apply. The move has been BOLDly made; so far no one has objected; if they do the mover can self-revert and a proper discussion can be held. In any case, talk page discussion is probably good enough without a formal RfC. If you read WP:RFC, it is intended only for use when talk page discussion was not able to resolve the issue. --MelanieN (talk) 15:05, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
- Hello, folks. I just noticed that the article was renamed, from "Shooting of Laquan McDonald" to "Murder of Laquan McDonald". In my opinion the original title is preferable, even though Officer Van Dyke was found guilty of second degree murder. "Shooting" is a more neutral and less inflammatory term. It's therefore more suitable here. An analogy would be the article titled Battle of Fort Dearborn, instead of Fort Dearborn Massacre. This is not to diminish the seriousness of the shooting, the subsequent cover-up, or the context of the troubled relationship between the Chicago Police Department and the communities it's supposed to serve. Also, "shooting" would be more in line with the names of some related or analogous articles, such as Shooting of Michael Brown, Shooting of Philando Castile, and Shooting of Trayvon Martin. — Mudwater (Talk) 01:31, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
- What does everybody else think about this? (Pinging those who have already posted in this section: @Basilosauridae, Strikerforce, and MelanieN:) — Mudwater (Talk) 00:00, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
- No strong opinion. I'd prefer shooting, but it's a matter of esthetics only. I think either is reasonable. MartinezMD (talk) 00:44, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks for the ping, Mudwater. I think the move to "Murder" is justified. The difference between this article and the three others you cite as analogous is that in those three cases, there was no conviction, so the incident remains a "shooting". In this case, a judgment of murder has been passed and I think we might as well say so in Wikipedia's voice. -- MelanieN (talk) 03:39, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
- No strong opinion. I'd prefer shooting, but it's a matter of esthetics only. I think either is reasonable. MartinezMD (talk) 00:44, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
- What does everybody else think about this? (Pinging those who have already posted in this section: @Basilosauridae, Strikerforce, and MelanieN:) — Mudwater (Talk) 00:00, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
We are required to edit neutrally. Article content is not required to be neutral. The subject was murdered. Someone has been convicted of the murder. The article title would only be inflammatory to someone who doesn't agree with that, and we are under no obligation to pander to fringe viewpoints. Only in death does duty end (talk) 13:07, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
- @Only in death: Please review Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#Naming and Wikipedia:Article titles#Neutrality in article titles. I'm suggesting that those Wikipedia policies would be better met by changing the name of the article back to "Shooting of Laquan McDonald". Fringe theories have nothing to do with it. "P.S." George Zimmerman was found not guilty of murder, but should the article "Shooting of Trayvon Martin" be renamed "Justifiable self-defense shooting of Trayvon Martin"? I would be opposed to that, and you probably would be too. — Mudwater (Talk) 17:13, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
- Murder is not a non-neutral title except where its not true, or to those who don't think it's murder. Shooting would be the less neutral title regardless. I'm ignoring the last absurd argument. Only in death does duty end (talk) 18:13, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
- I agree, I don’t see how Murder is not neutral as the case is now legally a murder due to the verdict. If the title were “The Slaying of..” or “The Execution of..” I’d agree, but I don’t think murder is non-neutral and due to the guilty verdict it is the most factual and accurate way to describe the case. †Basilosauridae❯❯❯Talk 18:35, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
- I'm conflicted on this one. On one hand, the above-mentioned policies should be considered, which would make "Shooting of" appropriate. However, on the other hand, I do agree that since there has been an adjudication of murder in this case, "Murder of" is factually correct. It should be noted that I did, however, previously support "Murder of" on 10/9. I expressed some frustration about the move from "Shooting of" having been made without, in my opinion, enough time being allowed to elapse for people to weigh in, but I did not revert the change. StrikerforceTalk 15:48, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
- I agree, I don’t see how Murder is not neutral as the case is now legally a murder due to the verdict. If the title were “The Slaying of..” or “The Execution of..” I’d agree, but I don’t think murder is non-neutral and due to the guilty verdict it is the most factual and accurate way to describe the case. †Basilosauridae❯❯❯Talk 18:35, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
- Murder is not a non-neutral title except where its not true, or to those who don't think it's murder. Shooting would be the less neutral title regardless. I'm ignoring the last absurd argument. Only in death does duty end (talk) 18:13, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
So, yeah. For the reasons I posted earlier in this section, here and here, I propose changing the name of the article back to what it was before -- "Shooting of Laquan McDonald". Does anyone agree with this idea? — Mudwater (Talk) 00:06, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
- As stated above, I still think that "Murder of..." is the best title due to the verdict of murder at trial for Van Dyke. However, I'm not opposed to participating in another discussion on the matter. †Basilosauridae❯❯❯Talk 00:28, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
- As I mentioned previously, we should not feel obliged to name the article based on the jury's verdict. "Shooting of Trayvon Martin" should definitely not be renamed to "Justifiable self-defense shooting of Trayvon Martin", but that's what the jury decided in that case. — Mudwater (Talk) 00:49, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
- We based articles on facts, and factually this is a murder. Per your rational, what should we name Murder of Laci Peterson, for example? Can you elaborate on why you don't feel its an appropriate title? †Basilosauridae❯❯❯Talk 01:03, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
- As I said before, Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#Naming and Wikipedia:Article titles#Neutrality in article titles are the guidelines we should follow here. The word "murder" suggests a planned killing, or a secretive slaying, such as that of Laci Peterson, which is not what happened here. We should not attempt to influence the opinions or feelings of our readers, however much we might be tempted to do so in this case. I really think that calling this article "Murder of Laquan McDonald" is a violation of WP:NPOV, and I'm wondering if anyone else thinks so too. — Mudwater (Talk) 01:11, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
- I will add this: In my personal opinion, I think the jury was right in finding officer Van Dyke guilty of second degree murder. If you are surprised to hear this, it means I'm doing a good job of trying to promote a neutral point of view on Wikipedia. — Mudwater (Talk) 01:15, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
- Murder does not imply planning or secretive slaying, and in fact is what defines the difference between a first and second degree murder in the United States. Again, this is factually a murder based on one of the most important factors in determining whether something is a murder or not: a verdict. I understand your position and I believe you understand mine. I won't comment further until more editors join the discussion. †Basilosauridae❯❯❯Talk 01:18, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
- First degree murder often implies planning (or it is an element that can be used to raise to that charge), but in this case he was convicted of secondary degree. MartinezMD (talk) 01:12, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, I hope other editors will join the discussion. The more, the merrier, although this is not a particularly merry topic. — Mudwater (Talk) 01:23, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
- Murder does not imply planning or secretive slaying, and in fact is what defines the difference between a first and second degree murder in the United States. Again, this is factually a murder based on one of the most important factors in determining whether something is a murder or not: a verdict. I understand your position and I believe you understand mine. I won't comment further until more editors join the discussion. †Basilosauridae❯❯❯Talk 01:18, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
- I will add this: In my personal opinion, I think the jury was right in finding officer Van Dyke guilty of second degree murder. If you are surprised to hear this, it means I'm doing a good job of trying to promote a neutral point of view on Wikipedia. — Mudwater (Talk) 01:15, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
- As I said before, Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#Naming and Wikipedia:Article titles#Neutrality in article titles are the guidelines we should follow here. The word "murder" suggests a planned killing, or a secretive slaying, such as that of Laci Peterson, which is not what happened here. We should not attempt to influence the opinions or feelings of our readers, however much we might be tempted to do so in this case. I really think that calling this article "Murder of Laquan McDonald" is a violation of WP:NPOV, and I'm wondering if anyone else thinks so too. — Mudwater (Talk) 01:11, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
- We based articles on facts, and factually this is a murder. Per your rational, what should we name Murder of Laci Peterson, for example? Can you elaborate on why you don't feel its an appropriate title? †Basilosauridae❯❯❯Talk 01:03, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
- As I mentioned previously, we should not feel obliged to name the article based on the jury's verdict. "Shooting of Trayvon Martin" should definitely not be renamed to "Justifiable self-defense shooting of Trayvon Martin", but that's what the jury decided in that case. — Mudwater (Talk) 00:49, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
I wouldn't be offended if you wanted to open an RfC. I hate to see a valid discussion die based on lack of participation. †Basilosauridae❯❯❯Talk 20:06, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks. That's not a bad idea. But, I think I'll hold back for right now. Who knows, maybe we'll get more discussion on this page. — Mudwater (Talk) 00:47, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
- I'm not sure how much discussion you will get. I think it will simply boil down to personal preferences rather than one title being superior to the other to any significant degree. As I see it, Murder is favored by the legal outcome; Shooting is favored by the other instances of similar police shootings, many but not all of which lead to death and few to a criminal conviction. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MartinezMD (talk • contribs) 01:12, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
- Are we really back to this subject? It was found to be "murder" by a jury. Case closed, pun fully intended. StrikerforceTalk 17:09, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
- I'm not sure how much discussion you will get. I think it will simply boil down to personal preferences rather than one title being superior to the other to any significant degree. As I see it, Murder is favored by the legal outcome; Shooting is favored by the other instances of similar police shootings, many but not all of which lead to death and few to a criminal conviction. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MartinezMD (talk • contribs) 01:12, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
Phrasing/Bias/Wording Issue
A line in this article reads:
"Van Dyke's attorney, Daniel Herbert, said that his client fears for his life.[75] A few protesters yelled at him and called him names as he approached the courthouse for his arraignment.[75]"
I don't know if its just me, but does this not come across as juvenile and specifically written in a way to elicit certain emotions? Something that doesn't belong in a Wikipedia article like this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.111.128.185 (talk) 08:17, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
- I think it's just you. It comes across as neutral to me and simply reporting the events at the courthouse. MartinezMD (talk) 08:37, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
- I also don’t see an issue. †Basilosauridae❯❯❯Talk 19:53, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
Toxicology reports and PCP
I think the statement on toxicology reports and PCP is a bit misleading as written. It is missing too much context or information. There are at least two open questions.
First, we don't know when the PCP was consumed. According to long does PCP stay in your system: blood, urine, and saliva:
Most scientists believe that the half-life of PCP is three days, through effects on the central nervous system can last from seven hours to a week in chronic users. Detecting PCP in your system relies heavily on the type of test.
Second, we don't know the quantity of PCP consumed. According to long does PCP stay in your system: blood, urine, and saliva:
Low doses tend to mimic the feelings of alcohol consumption. Higher doses increase the feelings of numbness and lead to more agitated behavior.
I also have not been able to locate information on testing for the presence of PCP in a corpse. I'm guessing - and it is just a guess - the toxicology results will be similar in a living person and someone newly deceased. This leads to a third question, when were the toxicology tests performed.
Chronology, quantity, and testing methodology affects the veracity of the statement. As written, the statement only appears to be present to provoke or bias readers.
Jeffrey Walton (talk) 17:43, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Whether it biases the reader or not can be discussed further, but the presence of PCP is the presence of PCP. How would you remedy the statement? As for post-mortem laboratory values, don't assume they are the same. There are several processes that occur as some dies then starts decomposing that can alter tested values. Forensic labs are supposed to know this and take the state of the sample in consideration. Regardless of the actual quantity, the statement makes no quantitative assertion (levels "high", "low", "trace", etc). More details about the pathology report could be helpful here. MartinezMD (talk) 20:01, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Here we go. I Googled more about McDonald, PCP, and level. Found this link https://chicago.suntimes.com/2018/9/27/18444151/van-dyke-trial-day-15-officers-taught-to-shoot-until-the-threat-is-eliminated that has the testimony of the defense expert "The pharmacologist called by Officer Jason Van Dyke’s defense team Thursday morning told jurors Laquan McDonald had enough PCP in his system to cause hallucinations, delusions, aggression and violence.
- Pharmacologist James Thomas O’Donnell later added that the level of PCP found in McDonald’s body, 56 ng, could lead to a “feeling of omnipotence” that can make people feel like they are “able to do anything” and “leads to significant bizarre behavior frequently described as psychotic behavior.”
- And then this other link, https://wgntv.com/2018/09/27/jason-van-dyke-trial-laquan-mcdonald-defense-testimony/ , quoting the same testimony "Dr James Thomas O'Donnell said the level of PCP in McDonald's system suggested the teen had taken the drug the day of the shooting" MartinezMD (talk) 20:10, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- I made edits to the section based on the above. MartinezMD (talk) 20:23, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Good edit to the article. Thanks. Jeffrey Walton (talk) 16:10, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
Opening paragraph missing accounts of McDonald lunging at officers
The opening paragraph says:
... McDonald was reported to have been behaving erratically while walking down the street, and holding a folding knife with a three-inch (7.5 cm) blade. Initially, internal police reports described the incident similarly and ruled the shooting justified and Van Dyke was not charged in the shooting at that time.
I believe the City of Chicago, the police department and the police union claimed McDonald lunged at police officers to cause the shooting. Later, when the dashcam video was released, the narrative was shown to be a lie.
Since the city, the department and the union all claimed McDonald lunged and caused the shooting, I believe it is an important detail that should be included in the opening paragraph.
Jeffrey Walton (talk) 18:27, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Did you not read the next paragraph? - "When the police released a dash cam video of the shooting thirteen months later, on November 24, 2015, it showed McDonald had been walking away from the police when he was shot." MartinezMD (talk) 19:55, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- I read the entire article. I'm specifically discussing the opening paragraph. Jeffrey Walton (talk) 16:08, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
- It's still in the lead. Propose an edit if you'd like our input. MartinezMD (talk) 20:18, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
Reverting title back to "Shooting ..."
The earlier comments referring to reverting the title to the earlier "Shooting ... " title requires some more discussion, rather than "This is the way I like it." Most people would look up "The shooting of ...," not "The murder of ... ," even though the judicial verdict stands and Van Dyke is serving 7-year sentence. It is more important how a reader will search for the article on Wikipedia, and what most viewers would type into the search bar. The use of arguments such as "I just like it" or "I just don't like it" WP:JDLI are not logical, and are best avoided on talk-page discussions. Cheers, Eli Bigeez (talk) 06:30, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
- Do you have verifiable proof that "most people would look up 'The shooting of ..." or is that just your belief, which invokes a form of JDLI? (By the way, what's with the reliance in the community to cite essays, rather than policy, lately?) This subject was discussed above and there was no consensus then to move it to "Shooting". StrikerforceTalk 00:17, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
Hello StrikerforceTalk, thank you for your time. Verifiable proof as to what someone would look up to identify anything on any shooting would of course first look up the name ... Laquan McDonald, followed by what happened, which is a shooting. No one would look up the "verdict," that is, 2nd degree murder or murder. The title has made it more difficult for people to research the topic. Less people are aware of it, logically speaking. As far as the previous discussion, I was not aware of it at that time, so I confess, I am questioning it at the present time. Thank God for talk pages! With all due respect, Cheers, Eli Bigeez (talk) 23:59, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
- What people would look up is a straw man argument. Either title links to here. We need to discuss the merits of one name vs another and any policies that may apply. MartinezMD (talk) 01:43, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
- So, here's my counter argument to you, @Bigeez: - Wikipedia's search engine will, when a user enters "Laquan McDonald", will pull this article as a result. If we want to talk about simplest search terms, or what solves the problem of "made it more difficult", that is an obvious answer. The incident was adjudicated as a murder. The method of the murder was a shooting. Forgive me, if I'm wrong, but doesn't Shooting of Laquan McDonald redirect here, which also solves the problem that you've raised? StrikerforceTalk 16:29, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Hello StrikerforceTalk, thank you for responding while I have some time, between my day job ;) ... I hope you didn't interpret this as any impertinence, but I don't believe I mentioned arguing at all. Therefore, no need for counter-arguments. It was meant as a suggestion, for that is what is done on talk pages.
Regarding the title, I personally had a minor issue in 2018 when I began writing up an article on the Dismissal of Robert Rialmo. As you are aware, it is linked to the essence of the Shooting of Laquan McDonald. Other wiki articles, like The Chicago Police Accountability Task Force, have written the title of the article as "Shooting." After I submitted the article in 2019, I was not aware that Shooting of Laquan McDonald had been changed. Besides, there are other Wiki articles linking to the Shooting of Laquan McDonald in addition to the one already mentioned. That was the driving force behind my post on this talk page. But since it all goes to the page as you mentioned, no worries. So there you have it. No "straw," edit warring, or playing confirmational bias as some blurt out before cognisant of all the facts. That is situational bias where, let's say, radiologists hone-in on one diagnosis — bowel obstruction on a KUB, but miss a lumbar compression fracture — or, provide medical advice "curbside" without knowing the entire history of a patient, these biases can result in patient diagnosis error and medical malpractice.
Incidentally, a Wiki deletion editor did not like the title of the article I wrote up and recommended that I change it to the Dismissal of Robert Rialmo from the "Shooting of Robert Rialmo." He wrote that more people would find it and that it is the essence of the story anyway. Eventually, that is what really happened: Rialmo was dismissed. The reader will find out, he wrote, that after digesting the article, and will know the history on their own. I did follow his advice, and changed the title. Please check my User talk:Bigeez page on the deletion editor's comments on Dismissal of Robert Rialmo. Maybe the title "Murder ... should be "Dismissal of Jason Van Dyke" or "Conviction ..." for that is its essence. Incidentally, one comment to the title change on this talk page was "remaining neutral," by another editor.
Lastly, perhaps the page views of the Murder of Laquan McDonald might reflect ease-of-use as verifiable data? They have dropped from a monthly high of 90k in early 2019, to 20-30k, down 75% in October, 2019. Analyse as you wish, for this might simply be due to relevance in the news, etc., but nonetheless, make any assessment you feel apropos. Please see my User:Bigeez/sandbox sandbox for my current work on an article subsection regarding "Collaboration/Resistance from World War II, the Dismissal of Robert Rialmo, as well as Eddie T. Johnson, (Superintendent of Police, Chicago) which I co-authored for any comments/suggestions.
Your comments are indispensable. I do value your time and advice. With all due respect, cheers, Eli Bigeez (talk) 20:26, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
- Perhaps †Basilosauridae❯❯❯Talk, MelanieN (talk), and — Mudwater (Talk) might comment as well. Cheers, Eli Bigeez (talk) 04:04, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
Request for comment on the title of this article
Should the title of this article be "Shooting of Laquan McDonald" or "Murder of Laquan McDonald"? — Mudwater (Talk) 02:01, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
Note: WP:CRITERIA "Murder of" is the correct prefix in terms of consistency with other articles. As per guidelines. There's also a compelling essay about the prefix here Bacondrum (talk) 07:31, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
- It would be better to rename the article back to its original title, "Shooting of Laquan McDonald". As outlined in Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#Naming, and in Wikipedia:Article titles#Neutrality in article titles, the titles of articles should conform to the Wikipedia Neutral Point Of View policy. For example, there's an article titled Battle of Fort Dearborn instead of Fort Dearborn Massacre. "Shooting" is a more neutral and less inflammatory word, and is therefore more appropriate here. The term "murder" is emotionally loaded, and evokes images of killings that are deliberately planned in advance, for reasons of personal gain. Also, "shooting" would be more in line with the names of some related or analogous articles, such as Shooting of Michael Brown, Shooting of Philando Castile, and Shooting of Trayvon Martin. Some editors may be emotionally invested in the idea that police officer Jason Van Dyke was not justified in shooting Laquan McDonald, that it was wrong for some members of the Chicago Police Department to have covered up what happened, and that the troubled relationships between some police forces and the minority communities they are supposed to serve is an ongoing problem for our society. That's understandable, or even commendable, but it should not detract from the neutrality of the article, including the title itself. Some editors have previously argued on this talk page that "murder" is better in the title of this article because Van Dyke was in fact convicted of second-degree murder (and aggravated battery). My challenge to anyone taking that position is this: George Zimmerman was found not guilty of second-degree murder in the Shooting of Trayvon Martin, but I would be strongly opposed to renaming that article "Justifiable self-defense shooting of Trayvon Martin". If you too would be opposed to that, how is this article title different? Thanks in advance to any sincere editor who participates in this discussion. — Mudwater (Talk) 02:02, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you, — Mudwater (Talk), for allowing me to participate. To be perfectly honest, I do see both points of view, eloquently addressed by StrikerforceTalk. I followed your recommendations, StrikerforceTalk and googled "Laquan McDonald." Yet, if one looks at the Googled major headlines of newspapers and TV media — after the verdict — they do not refer to it as the “Murder … ,” but rather as the “Shooting ... ,” i.e., New York Times,[1] or ABC News with David Muir,[2], or the “Shooting Death...”[3] and other Wikipedia articles, such as the Chicago Police Accountability Task Force and the Dismissal of Robert Rialmo.[4] The “details” and ”outcome” of the event are well-known by the media venues referenced that keep referring to the event as the “Shooting of Laquan McDonald” or the “Shooting death of Laquan McDonald." Thus, if it is found in the media as "The Shooting ..." or the "Shooting Death ... " is Wikipedia’s editorialising concepts far above these other media venues? Further, considering the Neutral Point Of View policy eloquently addressed by — Mudwater (Talk), is neutrality, benignity, and clear judgment to be sacrificed on the altar of (WP:JDLI)? In other words, a title to an article should not be "Just because"??? ... which was my bringing this up in the first place;). Respectfully, cheers, Eli Bigeez (talk) 23:34, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
- Hello — Mudwater (Talk) and StrikerforceTalk, I value your opinion, as I do MartinezMD (talk). To be perfectly honest, fair and impartial, I did discover some Googled titles which were identical to the title of the article (Murder of Laquan McDonald). Though, some were frankly saturnine. Most major media titles that I found were written as "Shooting...":
- However, there also were titles with "Death" and "Murder" or "Execution," albeit much less common:
- “Laquan McDonald’s Death … ,”[7]
- fewer with “Murder of Laquan McDonald … ,"[8]
- least common with “Execution of Laquan McDonald … .”[9]
- Eventually, it will boil down to the most appropriate and least volatile title that is found to be within Wikipedia guidelines that must take precedence among other editors. Cheers, Eli Bigeez (talk) 07:25, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
- In terms of consistency "Murder of" is the appropriate prefix, as demonstrated by a prefix search - there are thousands, maybe tens of thousands of articles with 'Murder of" in the title. "Shooting of" used far less often and only when there is no conviction.
See WP:CRITERIA As Bigeez states: "Eventually, it will boil down to the most appropriate and least volatile title that is found to be within Wikipedia guidelines that must take precedence among other editors" List of articles that are titled "Murder of" - there are thousands, maybe tens of thousands of articles with 'Murder of" in the title. "Shooting of" used far less often and almost only when there is no conviction. End of discussion. "Murder of" is clearly the appropriate prefix as per title guidlines.
- To answer the question about the difference from the Martin case, a title should be concise. Additionally, the not guilty verdict means that Zimmerman was not proven to be guilty. It does not mean that he was proven to be not guilty. Adoring nanny (talk) 03:37, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
- Hello @Adoring nanny: thank you for responding. I'm a little confused, though. Since you invoked double negatives, are you saying Zimmerman was proven guilty? Respectfully, Eli Bigeez (talk) 01:48, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
- No, I'm saying he was not proven to be anything -- guilty or not. Adoring nanny (talk) 13:41, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
- Hello @Adoring nanny: sorry, but I am more confused. Are we referring to the T. Martin/George Z. judicial case? Cheers, Eli Bigeez (talk) 20:25, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
- Hello @Adoring nanny: thank you for responding. I'm a little confused, though. Since you invoked double negatives, are you saying Zimmerman was proven guilty? Respectfully, Eli Bigeez (talk) 01:48, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
- point of order - Should this not belong in the section already covered that precedes this? Why are you revisiting a issue that was settled? and my comment - The major difference between this and other police shootings is that the officer is now a convicted murderer. So it's a not an emotional issue for me as it is a factual one. I like the ring of the "Shooting" title, but the details of the outcome favor "Murder" imho. MartinezMD (talk) 02:20, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
- Murder because the officer was convicted of murder. Adoring nanny (talk) 03:28, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
- This specific shooting resulted in a Murder.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:00, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
- Murder The crime was adjudicated as such and, as I pointed out above, "Shooting of" redirects here, which would satisfy the "simplest terms" of a search, as you suggested elsewhere. StrikerforceTalk 20:58, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
- Shooting - Per WP:COMMONNAME; after glancing at the sources briefly, it seems more commonly referred to as a "shooting" than a murder. To Tony's and nanny's points; the fact that it was murder doesn't mean that it wasn't a shooting. NickCT (talk) 18:01, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
- Murder as per Adoring Nanny Bacondrum (talk) 23:51, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
- Shooting as per
- Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#Naming = Wikipedia policy
- Wikipedia:Article titles#Neutrality in article titles = titles of articles MUST conform to Wikipedia policy
- Neutral Point Of View = Wikipedia policy. Bigeez (talk) 19:46, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
- @Bigeez: The keystone of my argument is solid - the defendant was charged with second degree murder, not second degree shooting. We report what reliable sources say, not what we think. Bacondrum (talk) 20:53, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
- Forget the charge. He has an actual conviction. MartinezMD (talk) 21:07, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
- @Bigeez: The keystone of my argument is solid - the defendant was charged with second degree murder, not second degree shooting. We report what reliable sources say, not what we think. Bacondrum (talk) 20:53, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
- Comment - Describing the murder of a person as the "shooting of" sounds super weasely to me. So I thought I'd look into it and found this compelling argument for the use of "murder" rather than shooting of, knifing of, strangulation of etc.
I also noted some arguments made about consistency, that other articles are titled "shooting of" rather than "Murder of", so this articles title should too, however that is a furphy. Most articles use "Murder of" which seems to be the obvious and better choice, I mean what do we do in the case of Agathocles of Syracuse who was murdered by use of a poisoned toothpick? "The toothpick poisoning of Agathocles of Syracuse" sounds rather stupid, I'm sure there are plenty of murder methods that would make a jarring title. In regards to consistency of titles, Murder of is the correct prefix - there are thousands, maybe tens of thousands of articles with 'Murder of" in the title. The courts decreed they were murdered, the title should reflect that fact, not the method of murder. Looking through articles titled "shooting of" it seems this title is used far less often and almost only when there is no conviction. Bacondrum (talk) 21:33, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
Just to let everybody know, I have posted about this Request for Comment at the Neutral Point of View Noticeboard, inviting interested editors to join in the discussion here. You can see what I said at Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard#Murder of Laquan McDonald. (It's possible that some editors will comment there, but I've requested them to comment here instead, to keep the discussion all in one place.) — Mudwater (Talk) 11:30, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
So a simple (yes I know about whatboutism and otherstuff) question how do we treat other cases where there was a conviction for murder?Slatersteven (talk) 11:34, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
- I was asked to comment because I started this article as 'Shooting of Laquan McDonald' which is now being debated. I strongly feel that the current article title Murder should remain. Here is my reasoning: 1.) There was a trial, and without ambiguity the murderer was convicted of second degree murder. 2.) Looking at Shooting of Michael Brown, Shooting of Philando Castile, Shooting of Trayvon Martin these point to situations where a shooting happened but no murder conviction was made. From what I can tell, 'shooting of...' articles seem to usually be titled as such because they describe shooting situations where a.) a murder conviction has not been made and b.) the 'shooting' title is used because it is a general term, without adjectives or further description like "Justifiable self-defense" which could be learned from reading an article itself - they are a wide catch-all category. By comparison , Murders of Chaney, Goodman, and Schwerner, Murder of James Bulger, Murder of John Lennon all are articles that describe situations where murder convictions were made. Describing THIS article (Murder of Laquan McDonald) with a general term would widen the description of the article to include it in a class of articles where murder convictions have not been made, which in my opinion at this time is inappropriate because a murder conviction has been made. 3.) The second degree conviction means that the murderer had malice a forethought, but did not premeditate or plan the crime. I'll say it another way - this murder was NOT "deliberately planned in advance, for reasons of personal gain" (which would describe first degree murder) and the article as it is now clearly states that this murder was a second degree conviction. Any reader can read the article and be better informed about the nature of second degree murder, the readers emotional response is not relevant. I will say that all future revisions of this article in my opinion should clearly state and link to this being a second degree murder to avoid confusion. 4.) I don't know how many sources cited in this article are from before or after the trial concluded. The date of publication of such sources should be taken into consideration. 5.) Redirects solve any naming issue, all potential names should exist as redirects to redirect to whatever name the article holds.
Victor Grigas (talk) 15:05, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
- "Murder of" is the consistently used prefix when a conviction is recorded Special:PrefixIndex/Murder_of in terms of consistency with other articles, as per WP:CRITERIA. Some kind editor/editors took the time to write an essay explaining how, why and when to use Murder of for titles: Wikipedia:"Murder of" articles - also includes how to title massacres, serial killers and terrorism etc. I think this is a clear cut case - shooting is appropropriate only when there is no conviction for murder. Bacondrum (talk) 20:20, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
So (to the other side) is there an example of a murder we do not call a murder in the articles title (note one off murder, not terrorist attack)?Slatersteven (talk) 16:58, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
- None that I can see:
- Articles with Shooting of prefix: Special:PrefixIndex/Shooting_of
- Articles with Murder of of prefix: Special:PrefixIndex/Murder_of
Bacondrum (talk) 20:27, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
- ^ Smith, Mitch (July 19, 2019). "Four Chicago Police Officers Fired for Cover-Up of Laquan McDonald Shooting". NYTimes.
- ^ Winsor, Morgan (July 19, 2019). "4 Chicago police officers fired over alleged cover-up of Laquan McDonald shooting". ABC.
- ^ Perez, Alex (January 19, 2019). "Ex-officer who killed black teen gets 81 months in prison shooting". ABC.
- ^ "Police Accountability Task Force Members". Chicago Police Accountability Task Force. Archived from the original on April 3, 2019. Retrieved October 21, 2019.
- ^ Samee Ali, Safia (October 9, 2019). "Inspector general report shows at least 16 officers involved in cover-up of Laquan McDonald shooting". NBC.
- ^ "16 Shots: The Police Shooting Of Laquan McDonald". NPR. January 19, 2019.
- ^ Sanchez, Ray; Jimenez, Roy (October 10, 2019). "16 police officers participated in an elaborate cover-up after Laquan McDonald's death, report alleges". CNN.
- ^ "Chicago officer sentenced for murdering black teen Laquan McDonald". BBC. January 19, 2019.
- ^ Hardiman, Tio (November 26, 2016). "The Execution of Laquan McDonald". huffpost.