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::::::::What's so difficult to understand about the statement "''... we use a source that speaks of [http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=14&x_article=217 "Palestinian duplicity"] the day we use sources that speak of "Jewish duplicity"."?'' I take [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad_al-Durrah&diff=252724157&oldid=252639794 this] to be a defense (indeed, championing) of using a propaganda-cum-attack-source that does no investigation whatsoever. |
::::::::What's so difficult to understand about the statement "''... we use a source that speaks of [http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=14&x_article=217 "Palestinian duplicity"] the day we use sources that speak of "Jewish duplicity"."?'' I take [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Muhammad_al-Durrah&diff=252724157&oldid=252639794 this] to be a defense (indeed, championing) of using a propaganda-cum-attack-source that does no investigation whatsoever. |
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::::::::Worse is to follow - there were other deeply unpleasant sources in that mini-list, including the publishers of this: [http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Blogs/Message.aspx/2687 Little terrorists-in-training] and [http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/reports/Jeningrad_What_the_British_Media_Said.asp Palestinian spokespersons ... practiced liar if ever there was one]. |
::::::::Worse is to follow - there were other deeply unpleasant sources in that mini-list, including the publishers of this: [http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Blogs/Message.aspx/2687 Little terrorists-in-training] and [http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/reports/Jeningrad_What_the_British_Media_Said.asp Palestinian spokespersons ... practiced liar if ever there was one]. |
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::::::::This comes on top of your treatment of Palestinian employees of Reuters - editors will be puzzled at the freedom you have to edit this article - and in particular, your freedom to waste the time of careful and scholarly editors. [[User:PalestineRemembered|PR]]<sup><small>[[User_talk:PalestineRemembered|talk]]</small></sup> 12:24, 23 November 2008 (UTC) |
::::::::This comes on top of your treatment of Palestinian employees of Reuters - editors will be puzzled at the freedom you have to edit this article - and in particular, your freedom to waste the time of careful and scholarly editors. [[User:PalestineRemembered|PR]]<sup><small> |
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[[User_talk:PalestineRemembered|talk]]</small></sup> 12:24, 23 November 2008 (UTC) |
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:::::::::No one has put such comments up in this article and I would be the first to reject them if the they did. While the facts related might be true, I would expect another source to reference them (the facts), not one that is so obviously biased -- unless of course one is speaking of the reaction of one side. There is no doubt you are going to be able to find equivalent statements on both sides. That is why, although some of the biased sources may be used, if they are the ''only'' ones making a particular (contentious) claim, I believe they should not be used, or cited specifically as an individual connected with an agency or group, eg Ahmed Jadallah above. [[User:Tundrabuggy|Tundrabuggy]] ([[User talk:Tundrabuggy|talk]]) 15:15, 23 November 2008 (UTC) |
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::What are you fishing for, TB? Are you saying there is something suspicious about my citing texts that use the adjective 'Jewish', or that a gentle remonstrance with an editor who appears to underwrite Rashi's doctine ''Kol Yisrael areivim zeh lazeh'' as a political statement,by reminding that 'Israel' has a great tradition of prophetic dissent, smacks of anti-semitism? The voice crying in a wilderness (Isaiah) against the consensus of regal or centralized power is one of the great ornaments of our Western tradition: you don't find it in Greece, where my cultural and intellectual bias lies, but in, yes, 'Jewish' tradition, which, by its example, gave democracy an indispensable figure of minority witness. All democratic dissent, in this sense, is an echo of our immense debt to what is 'Jewish' in Western civilization. I acknowledge my debts. If you find something problematical in that, well, as they say in the Antipodes old chum, 'stiff cheddar'. [[User:Nishidani|Nishidani]] ([[User talk:Nishidani|talk]]) 08:56, 22 November 2008 (UTC) |
::What are you fishing for, TB? Are you saying there is something suspicious about my citing texts that use the adjective 'Jewish', or that a gentle remonstrance with an editor who appears to underwrite Rashi's doctine ''Kol Yisrael areivim zeh lazeh'' as a political statement,by reminding that 'Israel' has a great tradition of prophetic dissent, smacks of anti-semitism? The voice crying in a wilderness (Isaiah) against the consensus of regal or centralized power is one of the great ornaments of our Western tradition: you don't find it in Greece, where my cultural and intellectual bias lies, but in, yes, 'Jewish' tradition, which, by its example, gave democracy an indispensable figure of minority witness. All democratic dissent, in this sense, is an echo of our immense debt to what is 'Jewish' in Western civilization. I acknowledge my debts. If you find something problematical in that, well, as they say in the Antipodes old chum, 'stiff cheddar'. [[User:Nishidani|Nishidani]] ([[User talk:Nishidani|talk]]) 08:56, 22 November 2008 (UTC) |
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Clearing up BLP issues
Dear Elonka - are you in a position to encourage and perhaps help a proper treatment of the BLP at this article? I abandoned editing here months ago for reasons you know about (I see nothing to indicate that things have changed, but that's a different issue).
As detailed here, I'm concerned that the article has BLP issues, many of them based on sources that are unverifiable, and other that is unwarranted use of the sources available.
Would I have your support to start removing some of the clear examples? Judging by what you've said about an article on one of the parties, I take it you would eventually want BLP policy appled fairly strictly. Do I have that right? PRtalk 11:55, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
- At this time, no one is banned from editing the article. Anyone who wishes to make changes is welcome to do so, as long as they stay in accordance with the #Conditions for editing. If you do remove anything which you feel is a BLP violation, please be careful to make that clear in the edit summary, and follow it up with an explanation here at the talkpage. --Elonka 03:00, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
- I need your support to strip out nearly everything that refers to the "hoax" allegations. I will likely need to use the the words "blogosphere" and "blog" around 4 times as often as I use the word "hoax" or "fraud" etc. (That's the ratio I spotted in one of the Israeli articles I looked at - hoax as a quote, "blog" as a statement). I won't call Shahaf an "eccentric obsessive" or "the fountainhead of al-Dura conspiracy mania" (cited to the Israeli newspaper) but, if we're to include mention of hoax or fraud, I may need to call him a "conspiracy theorist". Claims of "conspiracy freaks" about Karsenty and Landes, again from an Israeli report, can probably be left out. I will have to somehow juggle the abandoned 1st conspiracy theory (which may have had legs before it was abandoned) with the second, contradictory, conspiracy theory. I will need to describe Sharon as a controversial figure (which is actually rather mild) and his visit to Al-Aqsa surrounded by 100s of police in full riot gear as highly provocative.
- Once the article is policy-compliant it will likely be necessary to make further small adjustments to the wording and the references - some of which are fringe and/or unverifiable and/or wrongly quoted. (And of course it's likely I'll make mistakes). I will be reluctant to engage in any TalkPage explanation with anyone who rejects the Daily Mirror as an RS - I may need your assistance to re-present comments yourself, sorry about that.
- After that, the Ramallah Lynching and the Daniel Pearl beheading will need to go in, and in some even-handed fashion that treats them as part of a conflict. There are some very tricky parts relating to the communities from which some of the French and German media personnel come from, my heart sinks. I'll treat everyone as ethnically equal, someone else can deal with those issues. PRtalk 11:10, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
- The "Hoax" allegation is notable, and has been covered by numerous reliable sources - please refer to the "sources" sub-page. Please do not 'strip out nearly everything that refers to the "hoax" allegations' without a clear consensus on this Talk page first. Statements like "I will be reluctant to engage in any TalkPage explanation with anyone who rejects the Daily Mirror as an RS" are not very helpful. Canadian Monkey (talk) 16:33, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
- PR, since it sounds like you're suggesting some rather drastic changes, what might be best is if instead of editing the live article, you instead create a proposed new version in your userspace. Then you can edit it the way you want it, and let us know when you're done. If other editors agree with your changes, we can then move your version in place of the live article. Let me know if you'd like help in setting up a draft page? --Elonka 18:00, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
- Another suggestion would be for PR to discuss his proposed edits with his mentor prior to making them. I am still waiting to hear who that mentor is, since I belive Ryan P has given up. Canadian Monkey (talk) 21:47, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
- I would like, and I think this article deserves, proper administrative protection.
- We're just being shovelled more abuse of sources, claiming notability from a "list" that indicates quite the opposite. Here's the first item: Akerman, Piers. "Mohammed al-Durra footage may have been a hoax", The Daily Telegraph, May 29, 2008. ... "there has been almost no coverage of the court’s finding in France over the past six days, though it has received international attention from The Wall Street Journal and a number of other publications. Nor does a search of the files reveal that it has been reported in any major Australian newspaper, including those like The Sydney Morning Herald and The Age, which carried close to 20 stories and references, most of them sympathetic, to al-Durra".
- I believe this article should be written to the sources, and that's the only thing I'm offering to do. PRtalk 19:07, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
- Please note both the headline of the source you are quoting - "Mohammed al-Durra footage may have been a hoax" - as well as the subheading of the same, which reads "Court judgment supports view it was a hoax". This is from a mainstream, reliable source, just one of many who covered the trial, and reported on the results. Let me reiterate for you: The "Hoax" allegation is notable, and has been covered by numerous reliable sources - as your comment above just reinforces. Please do not 'strip out nearly everything that refers to the "hoax" allegations' without a clear consensus on this Talk page first. Canadian Monkey (talk) 21:55, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
- Elonka is acting as an uninvolved admin; I don't think she's intending to "support" any particular version of the article. However, she's suggested a way forward for you to implement the changes you propose, insh consensus. It's up to you whether you wish to pursue that course of action. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 21:43, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
- PR, since it sounds like you're suggesting some rather drastic changes, what might be best is if instead of editing the live article, you instead create a proposed new version in your userspace. Then you can edit it the way you want it, and let us know when you're done. If other editors agree with your changes, we can then move your version in place of the live article. Let me know if you'd like help in setting up a draft page? --Elonka 18:00, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
- I looked at all the English-language sources that I could easily access that are listed in the "with byline" section of the sources page, and counted the number of times the words "hoax" and "blog" (or "blogsites" etc.) were used. Results: ("hoax"/"blog") Total (30.5/11); Akerman (4/0); Beckerman (0/1); Carvajal (0/1); Chesler (2/2); Denenberg (4/0); Derfner (3/0); Fallows (1/0); Gelernter (0/0); Gross (0/0); Halkin (2/0); Hartley (0/1); Juffa (0/0); Juffa2 (1/0); Lord (0/0); Nizza (2/0); Lungen (2/2); Moshelian (1/0); Oakland (3.5/0); Philips (1/1); Poller, French ... (0/0); Poller A Hoax ... (2/1); Poller, The Tide ... (1/1); Ravid (0/0); Rohan (0/0); Rosenblum (0/0); Schwartz (0/0); Seaman (0/1); Silver (1/0); Yemeni (0/0). I did this quickly without double-checking; I apologize for any errors. I realize that these articles may have been collected with a particular purpose rather than being a random sample of articles about the topic; still, it shows that the word "hoax" in this context is notable. In this article, the word "hoax" appears 5 times in the body of the article and 3 times in the titles of references etc.; that doesn't seem excessive to me. Reading the article (but without checking the sources) I have the impression that it's a well-written NPOV article. Clearly a lot of work has gone into writing it.
- There is some unnecessary repetition: essentially the same sentence as this appears twice, and the previous sentence is also somewhat repetitive: "France 2 provided the footage free of charge to the world's media, saying it did not want to profit from the incident." ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 23:12, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
- As you say, this "sources list" was created to be skewed, perhaps by doing a Google search on the words "hoax" and "al-Durrah". A "sources list" based on Googling "blog" and "al-Durrah" would almost certainly produce the opposite result. We should really do a list for "Enderlin" and "hoax", that's the linkage which is being fought through the courts, and is the link that our article is making - a BLP, and a bad one (quite unlike the Shahaf case). I would do this research if I thought it would produce a better article - but it won't.
- Why would such a further search of sources not improve the article? Because we're still wrongly concentrating on "hoax", the evidence for which is a side show to the article and needs only a passing mention. Once Israel destroyed the evidence, the die was cast and the truth would never be known. (We know all about this kind of thing, we've seen Holocaust Denial. China has the same problem denying Tiananmen Square - bring in the gun and the tank and you lose the argument).
- As far as the world is concerned, the important part of this story is that 100s of Palestinian children were (are) being killed, and this is the one killing so far that's been caught on camera. As far as the world (and even some proportion of Israeli opinion) is concerned, Palestinians never shoot their own children, and (other than this case, the importance of which is artistic), nobody has ever accused them of anything so ridiculous.
- As should be reasonably obvious, this article makes us look like propagandists for Israel. The writing may be a credit to us, but it's concentrating on a conspiracy theory of which only die-hard supporters of Israel are interested. Our article doesn't deal with the story, which is based on one universally recognised "fact" (killings) and a secondary, lesser, "fact" (picture). Our article is Soap-boxing, avoiding the larger "fact" by trying to cast doubt on the smaller "fact".
- Perhaps I should start a new section, pointing out the obvious escape route. Those who think that the "controversy" around the secondary "fact" (picture) is notable should take their material to a sub-article (the BLP problem would remain, but perhaps more manageable). Meanwhile, this article needs a wholesale re-write, probably with the changes I have in mind, taking out most of the references to "hoax". PRtalk 09:27, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
- The "Hoax" allegation is notable, and has been covered by numerous reliable sources - please refer to the "sources" sub-page. Please do not 'strip out nearly everything that refers to the "hoax" allegations' without a clear consensus on this Talk page first. Statements like "I will be reluctant to engage in any TalkPage explanation with anyone who rejects the Daily Mirror as an RS" are not very helpful. Canadian Monkey (talk) 16:33, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
Page move
An account accused of sockpuppetry just tried to move this article to the title of Muhammad al-Durrah affair. I have reverted the page move, both because there was no consensus for it, and because the account was questionable for multiple other reasons: YYOOYY (talk · contribs). That said, if anyone does want the page moved to that title, please feel free to discuss it here. If other editors agree, we can move the page. But I'd like to ensure that there's a consensus first. --Elonka 17:36, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- Support re-name and page split - main article Muhammad al-Durrah affair. We don't do articles on persons notable for only one incident, and this article would have been entitled "Netzarim Junction incident" if it was simply one death, and not an icon of one/two occupations. PRtalk 18:30, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- At least at first glance, adding "affair" would seem to be appropriate, because this is not really a biography. I will reserve my actual opinion pending further discussion. I do not understand the reference to a split; what would be the split, and what would be the two titles? My inclination is that we probably don't need two articles about this subject. 6SJ7 (talk) 18:47, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- I could go either way as well, though I do think we have articles on people esentially famous for only one thing, eg, Leo Frank. 6S7J, I believe PR, in talking of a split, is expanding on his last point in the section above. If so, I'll just say I think that's a pretty bad idea. POV forks are definitely not okay. IronDuke 19:22, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- The "Muhammad al-Durrah story" is firmly entrenched in the minds of approaching two billion Muslims, along with nearly everyone else in the world (even France, where I think I'm right saying that the two Karsenty cases have been either studiously ignored or treated as passé). This is the story that lead to lynchings and beheadings and intifada (and perhaps the evacuation of the Gaza settlers 5 years later?). The Muhammad al-Durrah affair undoubtedly deserves a substantial article.
- Then we have the "hoax theory" which, in its way, is pretty significant too. Unfortunately for its proponents, the spot where this incident occurred was bulldozed the following day - furthermore, Shahaf produced two conspiracy theories, the first of which (I suspect) was substantially better than the second. The two theories contradict each other - which is another reason the truth will almost certainly never be known. PRtalk 20:18, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
I wouls support splitting out the conspiracy theories to a separate article and let this article deal with the facts. // Liftarn (talk)
- Isn't that the epitome of a POV fork? This article has never been about the kid any more than the properly-named Elián González affair article was just about a 6 yr old Cuba boy. Each is about the hoo-ha surrounding the respective subjects. Call it the Muhammad al-Durrah affair and keep it all in one article. Tarc (talk) 16:35, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- I think I tend to agree about the "affair" spirit for writing the article, but I'm not so certain the move is necessary. The "affair" is still evolving and we can improve the article by looking at it from the outside rather than with a "hoax/blood-libel" pretext/presences. The initial report was clear, the inspired global reactions were clear as well, the current arguments against the initial report are also clear - results pending the new claims are not yet clear. This is, I believe the way the "affair" (read: article) should be reported/written. However, I'm not sure the title "affair" gives us a better starting point than we currently have with the known title for the incident and it's follow-up. There seems to be advantages and disadvantages for either title, IMHO. One clarifies the prolonging issue, and the other is more notable yet causes conflict among editors who focus on initial (unverified) reports or recent (un-ratified) arguments. JaakobouChalk Talk 04:48, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
- p.s. I agree with Tarc and others who mentioned it about the POV-fork concerns. Splitting the article is a bad suggestion. JaakobouChalk Talk 04:49, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
- Splitting the article in "The Muhammad al-Durrah killing" and "Muhammad al-Durrah conspiracy theories" is no more a POV fork than it is to have both Apollo program and Apollo Moon Landing hoax conspiracy theories. Both are valid subjects. // Liftarn (talk) 19:21, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
- Can you tone down the soapboxing please? Talal Abu-Rahmeh and his 52 seconds of shouting "the boy is dead" is not exactly in the proximity of reliability as the likes of NASA. JaakobouChalk Talk 19:46, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
- The two subjects are not even remotely connected. It is a bit alarming that someone who is actively editing this article could draw such a comparison. IronDuke 19:51, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
- You're right. One is about space exploration and one is about civilians killed in war. However the relationship between the facts and the conspiracy theories is simmilar. Anyway, if we move out the conspiracy theories to a separate article we get rid of all the WP:UNDUE problems. // Liftarn (talk) 21:08, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
- No, the relationship is dissimilar in virtually every imaginable particular. This POV fork is not a useful idea. IronDuke 21:24, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
- You're right. One is about space exploration and one is about civilians killed in war. However the relationship between the facts and the conspiracy theories is simmilar. Anyway, if we move out the conspiracy theories to a separate article we get rid of all the WP:UNDUE problems. // Liftarn (talk) 21:08, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
- My two cents after consideration is leave as is, per Jaakabou and IronDuke and Jaakobou. Tundrabuggy (talk) 15:33, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
- The general consensus as I'm seeing it, is that there's no strong preference either way, but most people would be okay with moving the article to "Muhammad al-Durrah affair". Are there any strong objections to this? If so, we can do a more formal WP:RM request. If not, I'll go ahead and move the article. --Elonka 17:08, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
- Hmm. He has, as an individual, become something of an icon given what happened and hence you can justify keeping the article under his name. While I'm kind of undecided about the suggestion that it should be re-named, I'm really not sure about "Muhammad al-Durrah affair". I mean come on, the boy was killed (no, really, he was to the best of the current evidence). I know we need to avoid being over-emotive on WP, but that just seems a bit too anodyne. It also seems to me to pander somewhat to the conspiracy theories, as if there's some kind of mystery to be uncovered, as with The Affair of the Diamond Necklace or The Mysterious Affair at Styles for example. If we do move the page, "The Muhammad al-Durrah shooting" or something would be better in my view. I would add as well that there are other pages about other victims of the conflict which are simply here under their names (although I say this more to flag this up as a problem rather than to justify necessarily keeping this page the same way). --Nickhh (talk) 17:33, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
- Very subtle, Nickhh. I'm not persuaded either way, though I have only been a kibitzer here, and my judgement should not count. The OED gives for 'affair' (3)'Vaguely and with intentional indefiniteness, of an proceeding which it is not wished to name or characterize closely', which hardly fits the article as it has developed. Au contraire. 'Shooting' would be more appropriate, neutral and, what happened. My own feel for this is that 'The Death of Muhammad al-Durrah' might suit the case, if an alteration were to be made (it has literary precedents, implying by flagging death, the one great and conclusive event in the kid's life, that what will be described are the circumstances attending his demise). Nishidani (talk) 17:44, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
- Oh baby. On two separate pages I agree with your ideas(the shooting title, not death as I will explain below). Although I believe there is questionable evidence for the fact that the Israeli bullets killed him, the poor kid was killed in the middle of a horrible gun fight (and it really makes no difference which set of bullets killed him as both sides were culpable). The article (and all these articles about people killed in battles) really are not about the person, but more about making them martyrs (regardless of the cause), rightly or wrongly. I like "The Muhammad al-Durrah Shooting" idea. I have no time for conspiracy theories either, whether it is the Palestinians or the Israelis pushing them. If it was a hoax, somebody needs to provide real proof. I disagree with the Death idea, simply because so much the article cover the possibility the whole thing was staged (I am not saying it was, just repeating what is in the article). If the article spends all this space talking about that possibility, using "Death" in the title is illogical.Sposer (talk) 17:53, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
- For now, my position on the page name is neutral, but here are some suggestions people might want to consider along with the other suggestions above: Muhammad al-Durrah incident; or Muhammad al-Durrah occurrence; or Muhammad al-Durrah matter. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 17:40, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
- Oh baby. On two separate pages I agree with your ideas(the shooting title, not death as I will explain below). Although I believe there is questionable evidence for the fact that the Israeli bullets killed him, the poor kid was killed in the middle of a horrible gun fight (and it really makes no difference which set of bullets killed him as both sides were culpable). The article (and all these articles about people killed in battles) really are not about the person, but more about making them martyrs (regardless of the cause), rightly or wrongly. I like "The Muhammad al-Durrah Shooting" idea. I have no time for conspiracy theories either, whether it is the Palestinians or the Israelis pushing them. If it was a hoax, somebody needs to provide real proof. I disagree with the Death idea, simply because so much the article cover the possibility the whole thing was staged (I am not saying it was, just repeating what is in the article). If the article spends all this space talking about that possibility, using "Death" in the title is illogical.Sposer (talk) 17:53, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
I think the current name is probably the best one and a one everyone can agree on. Muhammad al-Durrah killing will probably be opposed by the pro-conspiracy editors and just adding incident adds no extra information and article names should be kept short. // Liftarn (talk)
Audio tapes
It is standard procedure, isn't it?, for the IDF to have audio records of communications in any firefight. Were they available, they would surely clarify much of the mystery? Just a thought.Nishidani (talk) 09:01, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Neutrality tag
This article has been tagged since May. Since there is no longer any discussion going on at the talkpage, is it time to remove the tag? Or if anyone has objections, could you please either clarify what they are, or simply edit the article to address them? Thanks, --Elonka 04:41, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
- Please re-read the talk page archives! None of the serious problems raised there have been dealt with, and everyone - myself included - gave up pointing them out. The key problem, put simply, is that 50% of this article is devoted to coverage of a fringe conspiracy theory, rampant in the blogosphere and occasionally noted in a few right-wing op-eds, which attempts to suggest that this was some sort of staged hoax, and that the boy may not even be dead. This minor controversy should be noted, but with due weight and without suggesting that there's something in the theory. Editing the page to remove all the more random theorising would involve gutting the article and would naturally re-spark an edit war. To be honest I don't know what the solution is here. But the article as it stand is certainly not neutral by any normal definition of the term. --Nickhh (talk) 22:31, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
- There are multiple ways to proceed:
- Provide a detailed list of things which must be changed; or
- Write a new draft. Copy the entire article to a subpage in your userspace, or to a sandbox version, and gut it to your heart's content. Once you've got it "done", announce it here at the talkpage, and ask if others agree that your version is better. If people agree (or no one disagrees), then copy in the new version. If there is disagreement, then the burden is on those who disagree to give specific change requests for the new version. Meanwhile, any sections that no one disagrees on, we can just copy into the live article. Or, another option is:
- Work on one section at a time, either:
- "Best to worst": Pick the section that needs the least amount of work, and edit it accordingly. If no one objects, then proceed to the next section, and so forth; or
- "Worst to best": Pick a section of the article that you think just needs to be completely deleted, then suggest it at talk: "Hi, I think section <name> is not helpful to the article, and should be completely deleted, does anyone object?" If no one objects, delete the section. If someone does object, then try to engage in good faith discussion towards finding a consensus, and/or proceed through one of the steps in dispute resolution.
- There are other methods too, such as WP:BRD. The point is, we shouldn't just tag an article as "never fixable". Either there should be a specific list of things to be fixed, or there should be active discussion and/or editing on the article, or the tag should be removed. But if no one is working on the article, and no one is talking about the article, then the assumption is that consensus has been achieved. --Elonka 01:12, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
- Really, what is the point? You've effectively given Tundrabuggy WP:OWNership of this article. Nobody else is working on this article, because they've all effectively been driven away from it, and nobody is talking about it because there's nothing new to say. -- ChrisO (talk) 01:24, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
- There are multiple ways to proceed:
Comment: I don't think the issue is of a rewrite. Nickhh, if I understand correctly, believes that the story is notable for it's original 2001 report alone while others believe there is equal value to it's more recent reports, which Nichh (again, if I understand correctly) considers to be non notable and fringe. Regardless of the truth (which will probably never be known), enough notability was given for the recent reportings to be given more notability than a fringe view would - it has created a few notable web-films, documentaries and a plethora of investigative reports (and an ongoing law suit) by reliable and neutral sources who place doubt on the "blame Israel" narrative of the 2001 reports. As the recent reports are clearly differnt in tone than past ones, it is up to current wiki-reliable reportings rather than the old ones to tell the story of the article (thoough it should also be clearly noted of how the story was reported in 2001).
p.s. has anyone seen Mabat II report from 2008? I remember a mention of an independant French ballistics expert called Jean-Claude Schlinger. JaakobouChalk Talk 01:34, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
- Actually the whole point is that I seriously dispute the notability of the wackier of the "hoax" theories. Ones that suggest he is alive really are at the fringe end of things by WP and all normal standards, and are simply not covered seriously in mainstream sources. However currently the article is written to give them an enormous amount of space, and to suggest that their version of events is plausible (often quite subtly, see the section below). Yes there have been investigations into what happened by more mainstream sources many of which have concluded there is no certainty about whose bullets killed him, but that's a different point. As for doing a whole rewrite myself, I don't have the will or the time - and even if I managed to do a good job of it, I know it will never be accepted. Any rephrasing or removal of material will be simply reverted, and if those reversions get frantic enough we'll just end up back with restrictions that will freeze the article and/or stop any editing by removal. --Nickhh (talk) 08:59, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Recent edits
There has been a series of small edits recently to the article, some of which are very disagreeable. I would WP:BRD, but given the history of this article, I fear that would degenerate into an edit-war quite rapidly. I would therefore like to discuss this here first. The editor who made these edits might want to give his/her opinion on the following:
- here the type of bullets (live and rubber-coated) is deleted and Reuters downgraded to "a Reuters reporter". This is removal of information and somewhat WP:WEASELy wording. How is this justified?
- here, if in the previous edit verbosity was an issue, this one goes the other way. Can you explain? Also, whereas throughout the article every reference to the boy's death is padded in qualifiers and hypotheticals, the boy-lifting-head thing is presented as fact, and not, as per the previous edit, as "a Haaretz reporter claimed". Why?
- here the source [1] is used to state that Jamal Al-Durrah a) received a palace and b) plans to live there. The source, however, says:
- DEBORAH CAMPBELL: [..] Rumors spread of Jamal al-Durrah's instant wealth, but while other funds were collected throughout the Arab world, he says none ever reached him or any Palestinian. His boxlike home in the Bourij refugee camp is furnished with white plastic chairs and a child's bed as a sofa. But social workers told him he no longer qualifies for aid because, apparently, King Abdullah of Jordan has given him a palace. Jamal is angered by these accusations.
- [JAMAL AL-DURRAH SPEAKING IN ARABIC] TRANSLATOR: Of course I will leave my home and live in the palace. I wouldn't live in the house that fills up with water in the winter.
- So whereas the interviewer, Mrs. Campbell, treats the claim as a myth ("apparently", "accusations") and Jamal Al-Durrah answers sarcastically, this is taken as rock-solid evidence that he indeed received a palace and will move there soon? I'm sure that if this is indeed true, you can surely find a better, less ambiguous source than this...
- here you inadvertently change the year of the interview from 2001 to 2000.
I am looking forward to your, and others', comments regarding these edits.
Cheers, pedrito - talk - 04.11.2008 07:42
- Thanks for the forensic analysis rather than my "it's all awful" efforts above (and below). I noticed the "A Reuters reporter .." switch last night and almost reverted it on sight, but backed off because at the end of the day it seemed like one issue among thousands, and if anything it would look like approval of the rest of it (as well, as you say, as leading to edit-warring). The later "Jamal's palace" addition is an especially brilliant piece of work. Overall the edits themselves, and the fact that 90% of the edits to this article over the past 3 months have come from the same editor, sum up what the problems are here. --Nickhh (talk) 09:08, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
In general see the sensible advice in Ravpapa's essay. He comments on this article here. While he says the page is a 'fine article', he then says that an independent assessment would come away with the clear impression the incident was a hoax. This from one of the least controversial editors in the I/P area. When a page exists that so unilaterally dissatisfies one party to a dispute, who see it as tilted one way despite months of effort, one should set up a twin page, and make the two pages compete for the best NPOV version, without any reciprocal inference. For one thing, this mechanism would allow rapid drafting towards quality, and compel either side to handle POV problems among themselves rather than against adversaries. This would require some administrative decision perhaps, since it is a creative innovation to test an experiment that may prove useful, or fail: but it merits a trial. In lieu of this, we will just have years of gamesmanship.Nishidani (talk) 11:33, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
- That's a very interesting essay. I suspect that his impressions have been shaped by the last third of the article (the section at Muhammad al-Durrah#Main issues of controversy). This is the only part of the article which I hadn't got around to systematically revising; it's still largely based on a text that was written by SlimVirgin (talk · contribs) a year or two ago. Frankly it wasn't great to begin with, being very slanted towards the conspiracy theory POV and omitting a lot of material of which SlimVirgin may not have been aware. I was in the process of rewriting that section offline at the point that Elonka decided to stage her little intervention a few months ago. It's still sitting on my hard disk, probably 80% done, but since Tundrabuggy seems to have been given ownership of the article I'm not sure there's much point in persisting with it. Perhaps the article should serve as a monument to the effects of unrestrained POV-pushing and misguided administrative interventions. -- ChrisO (talk) 17:17, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
- ChrisO, again, I am not sure where you are getting this from. There are no current ArbCom restrictions on the article, and have not been for some time. If you would like to edit the article, please do so. Or, create a draft version in your userspace. No one is preventing you from doing this. Speaking for myself, as an administrator here, I have no preference on article content, and my only goal is to try and assist in providing a stable environment for everyone to edit. I simply want everyone to abide by Wikipedia policies: Stay civil, use good sources, make sure everything added is verifiable, do your best to create a quality article which is neutral, and does not give undue weight to any significant theories. Where there are disputes, work through dispute resolution. Also, for best results, please try to comment on content, and not the contributors; and lastly, remember that it is not our job on Wikipedia to decide disputes, it is instead our job to describe disputes in a neutral manner. That's the best way that we can provide a quality article, which best serves our readers. --Elonka 18:34, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
- 'a quality article which is neutral, and does not give undue weight to any significant theories.' I was expecting, 'does not give undue weight to any insignificant theories.' and therein lies the gravamen of our differences, if I may speak, rather presumptuously, for many.Nishidani (talk) 10:39, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
- ChrisO, again, I am not sure where you are getting this from. There are no current ArbCom restrictions on the article, and have not been for some time. If you would like to edit the article, please do so. Or, create a draft version in your userspace. No one is preventing you from doing this. Speaking for myself, as an administrator here, I have no preference on article content, and my only goal is to try and assist in providing a stable environment for everyone to edit. I simply want everyone to abide by Wikipedia policies: Stay civil, use good sources, make sure everything added is verifiable, do your best to create a quality article which is neutral, and does not give undue weight to any significant theories. Where there are disputes, work through dispute resolution. Also, for best results, please try to comment on content, and not the contributors; and lastly, remember that it is not our job on Wikipedia to decide disputes, it is instead our job to describe disputes in a neutral manner. That's the best way that we can provide a quality article, which best serves our readers. --Elonka 18:34, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
- One of the advantages of Ravpapa's approach, in special cases such as this where an intractable disagreement on what constitutes NPOV persists, and where administrators otherwise neutral to the subject might themselves differ among themselves precisely on how to read the text in pure NPOV terms, would be this. By creating two pages, respectively edited by either side, administrative oversight is rendered unnecessary, since either party would be constrained to monitor itself, while glancing continually at the other page to see if 'they' are doing a more impressive job, in a kind of intertextual competition that prioritizes internal self-restraint in order to beat the other side on quality (judged by GA status before a non I/P improvised committee). The intrinsic antagonism of POVs and subjective differences on what reads as NPOV translates into sheer market-style competition to produce a better product. I disagree with Ravpapa only on the idea both should be compelled to use the same sources. From Elonka's perspective, it would also eliminate the endemic problem of tagteam suspicions (since only those who had worked on the mother page would be entitled to work the competitive versions). There is something for everything in the proposal. Perhaps it should be formally raised in some appropriate wiki forum. as an experiment limited to one or two intractable pages? Nishidani (talk) 17:45, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
- That's an excellent idea. It would be very easy to "police" - each "side" can list the faults they see in the other sides version - saving huge amounts of effort analysing which one to use.
- Another important advantage is that some articles are locked into a "shape" that is misleading - comparison of two article with all the major "points" arranged differently is intrinsically easier than deciding whether previous work needs tearing up.
- Would this article be a good place to start the experiment? PRtalk 13:45, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
Ok, User:Tundrabuggy has been online since I first posted this and has not bothered to answer, so I'm going ahead and reverting said edits.
Cheers, pedrito - talk - 05.11.2008 15:36
- Hi, yes, I just noticed this discussion. Not sure how I missed it since it is on my watchlist, but your characterisation of "not bothering to answer" is incorrect. It would have been nice if you had posted a heads-up on my talk page. At any rate I will look at this closely now, since every change I made carefully reflects the references that are given and the known fact. Thank you. Tundrabuggy (talk) 15:15, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
- 1. On the Reuter's reporter--- that reporter was a Palestinian stringer who had also worked freelance for other companies. That is one reason why I differentiated. See below for a much more concerning issue. Tundrabuggy (talk) 15:18, 16 November 2008 (UTC) revised Tundrabuggy (talk) 02:27, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
- 2. Your second comment re verbosity is a cover. The terribly important point that the boy lifted his head at the end of the film was removed as part of your edit claimed as verbose. That is the very crux of the issue and why the boy's death is "padded in qualifiers" as you put it. Tundrabuggy (talk) 15:34, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
- 3. Dropping the palace issue is Ok with me. I didn't take it as sarcasm and I had heard (somewhere, I don't have a reference) that Jamal had moved to Jordan.
- 4. The error on the date was in fact inadvertent as you suggested.
- - I have "issues" with the first reverts for the reasons stated above. Tundrabuggy (talk) 15:43, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
- It was this quote "He sees it as his mission to have the world see the despair of the Palestinian people," at his photography page, that made me suspect Ahmed Jadallah was not a objective Reuters reporter (ie speaking for Reuters), though I did leave the reference in. [2][3]Tundrabuggy (talk) 16:03, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
- Ok, lets take this point for point again:
- It doesn't matter if the reporter was an intern, a "stringer" or the company hot-shot. Reuters ran the story which means they also stand behind it.
- Sorry, saying the boy raised his head without any qualifiers, as if it was fact, when no WP:RS states it as fact is wrong. Furthemore, the boy-lifting-head theme is mentioned twice before. I have reverted you. Please make an effort to stick to WP:BRD and discuss this here before reverting again.
- Things you "heard somewhere" are just not good enough for WP:V. Please don't insert that kind of material until you have a WP:RS.
- This assertion of yours is somewhat at odds with the "every change I made carefully reflects the references that are given and the known fact" statement above. Please be more careful with your edits.
- Furthermore, there is no need for me to give you a "heads-up". You know this is a contested article and you should have seen this on your watchlist.
- Cheers, pedrito - talk - 18.11.2008 07:55
- OK, let's:
- Just because Reuters stands behind something doesn't mean it is true, anymore than when France #2 stands behind something. As a member of I-P collab group, I would think you would appreciate that a reporter/cameraman who tells the world that "his mission is to have the world see the despair of the Palestinian people" should not be a source of a quote to the effect "the dead and the wounded were lying in the street for a long time" in such a highly disputed story. Such vague generalities are meant to give a certain impression -- the one that is Jadallah's "mission in life." In fact there is no reason not to get rid of the sentence altogether. It tells us nothing we don't already know.
- No RS says he lifted his head? I think you are mistaken. And if it has been made twice before without a reliable source why did you choose to revert this one? In fact, everyone who has seen the unedited footage has said the exact same thing, and there is plenty of RS that says so. The footage that was not shown to the world at the time showed that the last sequence was of the boy lifting his head.
- What I said I heard "somewhere" was corroboration that Jamal had indeed moved to Jordan. The implication in the article/interview was that he was saying that he would move to his new "palace". You chose to take it as sarcasm and I did not. As I said, I was willing to leave it out on the grounds that you may have been right, and that it wasn't "sarcasm".
- Nothing I put in the article was not referenced by a RS. Please be more careful with your accusations.
- You are right that there was no need for a "heads-up." It would simply have been a courtesy. Tundrabuggy (talk) 15:20, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
- OK, let's:
- Ok, lets take this point for point again:
- Hi Tundrabuggy,
- You might be getting a bit off-track on the Reuters issue. It's not about the truth, but about attribution. In this case, Reuters reported that "protesters took cover as bullets flew around them, lying flat and in the gutter or behind any semblance of cover from the gunfire. At one point an Israeli helicopter hovered overhead, but did not open fire." If Reuters thought it was fit to print, then it is attributed to Reuters. The only case in which the author of an article is relevant is if he/she is quoted directly or if it's an opinion piece, which is not the case here.
- Regarding the boy-lifting-head issue, there are some things that need sorting out. I removed your addition because the boy-lifting-head (BLH as of here) is already mentioned in the previous paragraph. The whole BLH thing shouldn't even be part of this description here anyway, as it is the kind of analysis that fills the sections on the subsequent investigations and controversies. Do all the BLH stuff you want there. There is no reason to plaster this across the description of the incident itself.
- Cheers, pedrito - talk - 18.11.2008 15:35
- Sorry to intrude, but this really is extraordinary. Many things leave me flabbergasted because they pass unnoticed, but this remark is just too much.
' a reporter/cameraman who tells the world that "his mission is to have the world see the despair of the Palestinian people" should not be a source of a quote to the effect "the dead and the wounded were lying in the street for a long time"'
- Do you mean by that, Tundrabuggy, that the huge literature from Martin Buber (1938) to Jean-Paul Sartre, to Celan and Elie Wiesel, from Simone Weil etc., that tells us a writer, poet, theologian, journalist should feel a mission to testify to suffering, simply does not apply, as it does to all humanity, if the victim happens to be a Palestinian? Nishidani (talk) 15:53, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
- Come on guys, you're obviously approaching this the wrong way! Let me put forward a modest proposal - you should be looking at it from a conspiracy theorist's perspective:
- 1) It's necessary to emphasize the ethnicity of reporters because, as everyone knows, Palestinians (and Arabs in general) are at best untrustworthy and habitual liars at worst. They're only "pallies", after all. A Palestinian reporter who was present at the scene of the shooting is especially suspect, as he clearly must have been part of the conspiracy.
- 2) Everyone knows from the movies that if you're hit by a bullet, you drop dead instantly. Therefore the point that the boy's head moved after he was allegedly shot is vitally important. If his head moved, he couldn't have been dead, therefore he couldn't have been shot. This point needs to be emphasized as much as possible.
- 3) "We've plenty of hearsay and conjecture. Those are kinds of evidence." - Lionel Hutz, The Simpsons
Haha. One has to laugh. But here you have a "story" that is controversial and an issue of contention between two peoples. I would ask you to imagine if one of the "reporters" for Reuters claimed that his life's mission was to show everyone the suffering of the Israelis were experiencing at the hands of the Palestinians. I find it difficult to believe that you all would accept such a reporter's view without some outside corroboration! As it is, CAMERA & Honest Reporting & MEMRI & Arutz7 & or horrors! the Israeli "government" & those who work for them are all dissed as being pro-Israel and inherently & totally unreliable. Re the idea of "stressing the ethnicity" of the reporters -- that is not the case, and I object to the characterisation. I object to the implied suggestion that I am a racist. This does not demonstrate AGF - which I would expect from you. See this article from "The Committee to Protect Journalists" of October 20, 2000 [4], just a month after this (Al-Durrah) incident.
In the nearly seven years since the Palestinian National Authority (PNA) assumed control over parts of the West Bank and Gaza, Chairman Yasser Arafat and his multi-layered security apparatus have muzzled local press critics via arbitrary arrests, threats, physical abuse, and the closure of media outlets.
.....The actual repression is informal, but effective: local journalists can expect swift retribution if they criticize Arafat, his cronies, or the shadowy Palestinian state security apparatus.
Over the years, the Arafat regime has managed to frighten most Palestinian journalists into self-censorship....
There is an opposition Palestinian press that includes a few small-circulation Islamist weeklies in Gaza. There are also several private TV and radio stations. ... And they exercise the utmost care when covering political arrests, torture, and other human-rights abuses, along with official corruption and security cooperation between the PNA and the Israeli armed forces.
Journalists and photographers should toe the line in Gaza and West Bank, such as those who taped the lynching of the two IDF'ers in Ramallah shortly after this incident, whose tapes were confiscated and who were beaten. Even as recently as June 2008, there is this story of an imprisoned AP journalist [5]. There is clearly a Palestinian "party line" that most Palestinians adhere to under fear of being accused of collaborating with the enemy. And I would remind you what the penalty is for that in the territories. In July of 2005 the Jerusalem Post reported:
- The Palestinian Journalists Syndicate in the Gaza Strip on Tuesday instructed local reporters and photographers to refrain from covering the clashes between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority security forces. In a statement, the syndicate, which is controlled by members of the ruling Fatah party said that “pictures that some journalists are conveying to the international and local public opinion don’t benefit the struggle of the Palestinian people for liberation and independence.” It warned the journalists against continuing to cover the “unfortunate clashes for fear that that they would add fuel to the fire.”
- The syndicate warned that anyone who violates its instructions would have to bear the personal and legal consequences of his or her deeds.
and see:
:Palestinian Journalist Syndicate slams attack against Palestinian Newspaper -- Thursday June 19, 2008
The Palestinian Journalists Syndicate issued a statement on Thursday slamming the attack which targeted Palestine Newspaper when gunmen opened fire at the papers building and wounded its editor-in-chief, Mustafa Al Sarraf.
The Syndicate demanded protection to all reporters and their facilities regardless of their political affiliations and added that this attack was aimed at inflaming tension among the Palestinians.
Also, the Syndicate accused collaborators with the Israeli army of carrying the attack. [6]
Major newsmedia are apparently reluctant to put Westerners into Gaza and West Bank and perhaps with reason -- consider Steve Centanni and Olaf Wigg of Fox News, and so rely on Palestinian stringers instead. More often as not, as in the case of Talal Abu Rahma, the word of the one reporter is relied upon entirely by the mainstream media. But only those reporters whose views correspond with the prevailing authority and that "benefit the struggle of the Palestinian people for liberation and independence" are allowed to operate freely there. It is an unfortunate fact of life which is quietly covered up by most of the media, since otherwise readers might consider their content suspect. It reminds me of Soviet control of the press and speech. "'In our state, naturally, there can be no place for freedom of speech, press, and so on for the foes of socialism,' wrote Andrei Vishinsky in The Law of the Soviet State. The test in a totalitarian state was not whether the publication was treasonable or seditious, but whether it tended to advance official ideology." (Encyclopedia Britannica, Vol. 5, page 164) Tundrabuggy (talk) 04:53, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- How many citations of the extensive literature on censorship in Israel do you require to understand that this is not an exclusively Palestinian problem. Any IDF action in the territories comes under a general ruling regarding State Security. In the past hundreds of incidents like the expropriation of land for 'security' reasons (then turned over to settlers) fell under State secrecy acts. Israel has one of the most severe laws in any democracy for reporting events in the Territories. There is a substantial literature on this, explainjing how difficult access to IDF materials is, how self-censorship works, how reporters are subject to license withdrawal (as in this case), how information of a 'delicate' kind must be vetted by the military before it is passed on to the public, how 'image' is paramount in reporting from the Territories. In the al-Durrah case, the IDF has never published its video, audio and communication logs for the incident, though we know it is standard practice in the highly technological IDF to have such direct field feedback. This doesn't arouse your suspicion, but rumours by fringe groups about palace compensation for the boy's father does.
- ‘Legal documents defining the powers of the military censorship committee, . .were published for the first time ever by Haaretz on last 26 November. They are based on the British ‘Defence Regulations’ of 1945, originally devised to suppress Jewish underground organizations. Advocate Dov Yoseph, subsequently the Israel Justice Minister from Labor, defined them in 1946 . .They empower the censor to ban any publication considered as ‘possibly jeopardizing the defence of Israel, or public peace and order’ without providing any reasons for the ban. This applies to any printed matter, from books to crosswords, including reprints of what has been already published. . .The censor can close newspapers and confiscate printing machines, faxes and duplicating machines, as was done in the Gaza Strip at the onset of the Intifada. An amendment adopted in 1988 commands that ‘anything authored by anyone which may possibly affect the state’s security in any way’ be submitted to preventive censorship. And there are additional stipulations, still in force, which bestow on the censor further powers that know virtually no limits. Israel Shahak, Open Secrets, Israeli Foreign and Nuclear Policies, Pluto Press, 1997 p.16
- ‘regardless of their political affiliations, all the news media in Israel have a self-imposed constraint on their autonomy: state security. Throughout the state period, security and foreign affairs remained such sensitive matters that there was widespread agreement that the news media should be restricted in these matters. Thus, most newspapers operated within the boundary of the national consensus, especially in security affairs.
- In this context, Peri (1993) noted that “the history of the Jewish people and the Zionist movement have left a deep imprint on Israeli perception of security. Israeli views on the subject rest on a deep foundation of beliefs and fundamental presuppositions regarding basic issues of Jewish collective existence: Is the world essentially hostile or not? . .Is national existence guaranteed . .or does the threat of annihilation constantly hover over us”(346)?’
- Secrecy and publicity laws in Israel prescribe everything official to be secret unless disclosure is specifically permitted. The widely shared agreement about the necessity to withhold information concerning security and foreign policy contributes to general government control of information. According to Karl (1983), there are three kinds of censorship in Israel: Censorship at the source, where the journalists are not given correct information, or they know half of the truth, but the other half may be much more important; military censorship, top which all domestic and foreign despatches on military matters are subject; and voluntary censorship, where the reports themselves abstain from criticizing the government or directly unpleasant questions to the official sources.’ Muḥammad ibn ʻAbd al-Ghanī Nawāwī, Mohammed El-Nawawy, The Israeli-Egyptian Peace Process in the Reporting of Western Journalists,Greenwood, 2002 p.116
- ‘In legal reality a state of emergency has existed since the establishment of the State, without any connection to the relative periods of quiet between the wars. The security tension and external and internal dangers to State security cause the Knesset and the Government to continue the legal state of emergency. Such a state of emergency makes possible the enactment of legislation granting wide powers of detention and search, and the establishment of economic order by administrative orders within the framework of general laws
- ‘This is an extremely broad authority granting the censor absolute discretion. Despite this provision and the importance of censorship in the eyes of the security agencies of the State of Israel, usage has developed whereby censorship of the daily newspapers which are members of the Editors’ Committee is based upon a customary and voluntary agreement'.Shimon Shetreet (ed.), Free Speech and National Security, Martinus Nijhoff Publishers, 1990 pp.42-3
- ‘Today there are many people, not only within the army or the government, who advocate the imposition of a ban or restriction of media coverage of the disturbances in the territories. They argue that such media coverage encourages hostile elements and action in the territories, serves the interests of the enemies of Israel and undermines support by friends of Israel.Itzhak Zamir, ‘Reporting Military Activities by the Media: Legal Analaysis of the Israeli Practice,' in Shimon Shetreet (ed.), Free Speech and National Security, pp.160ff.p.161
- ‘In 1977, the year of Israel’s political upheaval, when the Likud rose to power, it also marked an upheaval in Israel Television’s freedom of activity. During the year, the Board of Governors of the Broadcasting Authority was replaced with more right-wing elements which made certain to curtail reports from the Territories. The majority of the Board of Governors comprised Likud and Greater-Israel supporters, while the Labour Alignment, which believed in territorial compromise, remained in the minority. The Government appointed a Director General who agreed to reduce television reports on the Palestinian problem,. Reports and programmes dealing with the Territories were shelved and employees suspected of left-wing tendencies were removed from key positions.' p.174
- ‘Many people say reports from the Territories serve to fan the flames of conflict. To a certain extent, I would answer in the affirmative, as such is the nature of all news reports. The presence of a camera at a demonstration arouses tempers. Realising this, we and the American network teams voluntarily imposed a severe restriction on ourselves several years ago: camera crew will not enter a potentially explosive area before disturbances occur. They wait patiently, entering and photographing only when and if something happens.’p.177
Etc etc etc. Nishidani (talk) 11:03, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- I never said there weren't issues with Israel's press, either. However we weren't discussing an Israeli reporter, but a Palestinian one. Tundrabuggy (talk) 16:17, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- (EC)That's all quite beyond the point. Reuters reported it, Reuters stood by the story, Reuters has not retracted any part of it. None of what is attributed to Reuters is controversial or exceptional. You have yet to give one policy-based reason why the article should use the reporter's name and not Reuters.
- Cheers, pedrito - talk - 19.11.2008 11:08
- Actually I said one whole sentence by him should be scrapped as it adds nothing not already said in the article, merely vague generalities. Tundrabuggy (talk) 16:17, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- Actually Tundrabuggy has given a reason why it should not be trusted. Because Reuters used a Palestinian. Translation of the exchange above: Tundrabuggy's editing assumes that there is something peculiarly untrustworthy about any source coming from an Arab Palestinian, esp. if, as all over the world, he or she may simply declare in standard terms characteristic of quality reporters and historians that his function is that of bearing witness to suffering. The prejudice is as patent as the recent declaration by a new administrator that firing a million bullets at Palestinians over 5 days is not really that much in terms of firepower.Nishidani (talk) 11:14, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- I disagree with this assesment as this is not a race based argument but rather an issue of freedom of the press in the Gaza strip as well as notable violations of journalistic standards. Nishidani, it be best if you avoid violating WP:NPA: Focus on content rather than editors. JaakobouChalk Talk 11:39, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- Indeed I focused on the content of Tundrabuggy's remarks, which bear a clear distinction between Palestinian and Israelis on the issue of reliability. I cited one of several dozen sources which show that the Israeli press is subject to censorship and self-censorship in covering IDF actions, one of which is covered in this article. So, analyse content and don't make boring remarks about a personal attack, esp. to someone who is merely noting what loooks like a personal and ethnic attack on a source because he happens to be Palestinian. As Pedrito says, Reuters is the source, and the rest is irrelevant, unless ethnic suspicions about Palestinian sources are to prevail here.Nishidani (talk) 14:25, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- Not at all, I said nothing at all about Israeli sources, and in fact I have criticized a number of Israeli sources myself, in regard to Al-Durrah as well as other things. So please refrain from these allegations, as they are not becoming to you in the least. They remind me of the very criticisms you often make complaining that others accuse others of antisemitism when in fact they are just making a legitimate criticism of Israel. What exactly is the difference-- except in regard to who is the target of that criticism? Tundrabuggy (talk) 16:25, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- Well, I think analogically and subtextually. It generally means looking for what is not said, or implied, or assumed. When I first read,
' a reporter/cameraman who tells the world that "his mission is to have the world see the despair of the Palestinian people" should not be a source of a quote to the effect "the dead and the wounded were lying in the street for a long time,'
- I did my usual exercise and translated into Israeli terms:
'a reporter (Gideon Levy) who tells the world that "his mission is to have the world see the despair of the Palestinianj people" should not be source of a quote to the effect that "the dead and the wounded were lying in the street for a long time",
- Well, I think analogically and subtextually. It generally means looking for what is not said, or implied, or assumed. When I first read,
- You see, Levy's column 'The Twilight Zone' in Haaretz illustrates his passionate mission as a journalist to bear witness to the effects of Israeli rule in the Occupied Territories. He often writes things like 'the dead and the wounded were lying in the street for a long time', which is a wholly innocuous, objective mode of statement. Now, by analogy, it should be clear that no one would say that of Gideon Levy. You say it of a stringer for Reuters, not known for employing nincompoops, who happens to be Palestinian. In the contrast, your assumption is evidenced, that his being Palestinian makes the statement invalid. At least that's how I read prose. Nothing personal: the prose of everyday life is full of thoughtlessness. Being like everyone else,I suffer from it myself. I just take to heart the otherwise worthless Heidegger's remark about das Ungedachte, als das zu DenkendeNishidani (talk) 17:05, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- You are right that Gideon Levy is on a "passionate mission to bear witness" against the Israelis and for the Palestinian people. Most of his stuff is full of it, ie totally non-objective biased opinion and hyperbole, with a (possible) smattering of facts. Just because he is a Haaretz writer should not lend his material any credibility whatsoever. He is blinded by his own prejudices, and when and unless there is corroboration, he should not be considered a RS. But at least Israel has a relatively free press, and except for things military, writers like Levy and Amira Hass are at perfect liberty to write what garbage they like. It is not as if their lives are endangered unless they write for the benefit of the struggle of the Israeli people to maintain their homeland in the face of constant threats and attacks from their Arab neighbors, unlike the Palestinians, required to "benefit the struggle of the Palestinian people for liberation and independence” on fear of death. Tundrabuggy (talk) 00:04, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- No, I did not say GL bears witness against the Israelis. He is an Israeli critical of his country. Want a list of several hundred distinguished Israelis, Zionists included, who are critical of their country's abuses? Do we have to keep up this theory of Israel as in a state of exemption, when it is the fundamental mark of distinction of democracies that they allow, and indeed encourage dissent, profound dissent, from their country's official policies when those policies are seen to threaten the fabric of universal principles of justice underpinning democratic modernity. You implicitly affirm Israel is to enjoy a state of exemption. That you may dismiss criticism of this order as subversive garbage is telling. They think Israel's security lies in reaching an accommodation with their neighbours, rather than occupying them and carpetbagging their resources. This is an eminently respectable view, shared by people like Henry Siegman, or Nahum Goldmann or thousands of others who think or thought, work and worked within the mainstream of their Jewish communities. On the issue of style, GL's Twilight Zone articles are noted for their close attention to registering details in a flat, unemotive style, and their refusal to expostulate rhetorically about what are extremely distressing incidents. Nishidani (talk) 11:06, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- You are right that Gideon Levy is on a "passionate mission to bear witness" against the Israelis and for the Palestinian people. Most of his stuff is full of it, ie totally non-objective biased opinion and hyperbole, with a (possible) smattering of facts. Just because he is a Haaretz writer should not lend his material any credibility whatsoever. He is blinded by his own prejudices, and when and unless there is corroboration, he should not be considered a RS. But at least Israel has a relatively free press, and except for things military, writers like Levy and Amira Hass are at perfect liberty to write what garbage they like. It is not as if their lives are endangered unless they write for the benefit of the struggle of the Israeli people to maintain their homeland in the face of constant threats and attacks from their Arab neighbors, unlike the Palestinians, required to "benefit the struggle of the Palestinian people for liberation and independence” on fear of death. Tundrabuggy (talk) 00:04, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- @Tundrabuggy - all of your points might be perfectly valid - but two things render them pointless as regards applying them here:
- 1) This article is in a terrible POV state right now, and it's being modified to make it even worse. (another example I've only just noticed - MaD seems to be the first of 84 consecutive killings of Palestinian children before a single Israeli child died. We have an article almost totally devoted to discussing a deeply partisan claim that critics of Israel are liars and cheats and should lose their jobs - and almost nothing in the article that speaks to a widely believed "version" by which, even after apparently being "caught" killing one Palestinian child, Israel then proceeded to start killing quite large numbers of them).
- 2) The use of sources at this article is terrible. I shouldn't have to tell you this, but we use a source that speaks of "Palestinian duplicity" the day we use sources that speak of "Jewish duplicity".
- If I had to comment on any of the rest of it, it would be the misleading nature of your complaint about intimidation of journalists by Palestinians. The article must not be written with ethno-specific weasel-words, and I shouldn't have to be telling you that. Admins rightly protect these pages from the antisemitic - so why the glaring discrepancy over finger-pointing at Palestinians? PRtalk 12:05, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- 2)re your assertion that Al-Durrah was the "first of 84 consecutive killings of Palestinian children before a single Israeli child died." I am not sure of the accuracy of your numbers since they aren't referenced anywhere, nor do you explain what counts as a "child" & you are arbitrarily choosing a start-date. Perhaps that is to avoid acknowledging some earlier killings of Israeli children? In 1970 in Avivim, Israel, Palestinians attacked a schoolbus killing 9 children. In May of 1974, Palestinians killed 21 children in a school in Ma'alot. There were killed Israeli children well before Mohammed Al-Durrah and the Second Intifada. But I am sure I am not telling you something you don't know. Tundrabuggy (talk) 02:52, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- @Tundrabuggy - what are you doing editing this article when you're so ignorant of, and woefully dismissive of, another of the major horrors of the Intifada? The figures on the killings of Palestinian children are here. "Project Censored 2005" p. 291 "In the first three-and-a-half months ... Israeli forces killed 84 Palestinian children. The largest single cause of their deaths was gunfire to the head.[7]. During this period, not one Israeli child was killed. Not one suicide bombing against Israelis occurred.[8]."
- If you behaved like this towards the number of victims of the Holocaust, you'd be rightly indef-blocked from the project. PRtalk 12:41, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
- And so from the other side one will mention hundreds of incidents before those two dates when Palestinians were killed by Israeli government actions (24 massacres in 48), etc. The point is, in these incidents, 'Palestinians' did not kill Israelis. Specific factions of Palestinian militant movements conducted terrorist operations, just as specific units of the IDF did likewise. In both cases one does not generalize operational choices by a state, or by a non-state actor as an Israeli or a Palestinian slaughter. Israelis are no more culpable of Ariel Sharon's massacres than are Palestinians culpable for George Habash's terrorism. The truth lies in details, not in ethno-labelling everything as Israeli/Jewish or Arab/Palestinian, which is language that lends itself to antisemitism, or anti-Semitism (anti-Arab racism). Nishidani (talk) 11:15, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- 2)re your assertion that Al-Durrah was the "first of 84 consecutive killings of Palestinian children before a single Israeli child died." I am not sure of the accuracy of your numbers since they aren't referenced anywhere, nor do you explain what counts as a "child" & you are arbitrarily choosing a start-date. Perhaps that is to avoid acknowledging some earlier killings of Israeli children? In 1970 in Avivim, Israel, Palestinians attacked a schoolbus killing 9 children. In May of 1974, Palestinians killed 21 children in a school in Ma'alot. There were killed Israeli children well before Mohammed Al-Durrah and the Second Intifada. But I am sure I am not telling you something you don't know. Tundrabuggy (talk) 02:52, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- Note to TB (and everyone) - shall we back down a bit from the soapboxing? Also TB, please do not try to rewrite WP rules on what constitutes an RS based on your own views on individuals. You are now claiming that Gideon Levy cannot be used unless what he says is corroborated. I recall you tried the same trick with Ed O'Loughlin; others have tried it with Levy (and even Haaretz as a whole) in the past. This kind of McCarthyite behaviour is truly inappropriate, but seems to be a consistent pattern on I-P pages. The point is simple - mainstream news media are generally reliable sources, whether it's the Daily Telegraph or The Guardian, the Jerusalem Post or Haaretz. So long as comment is idenitified as being exactly that (when appropriate) rather than straight news reporting, there is no problem. --Nickhh (talk) 09:16, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
Latest Edits
OK, two more ....
1) I cannot believe that Arutz Sheva is now being pushed as reliable source, per this edit, especially in light of the comments about Haaretz' Gideon Levy above. I'll back off from my reluctance to edit here myself to restore the fact tag and to remove the "it is important to note ..." weaselly and pompous nonsense while I'm at it.
2) We seem rather desperate to prove the claim that there was no autopsy, as if this were a significant hint of some kind of cover-up. A little time spent on finding out a bit more about common Islamic custom might be fruitful here. Having said that, the fact that none was undertaken is probably worth noting, but I suspect some people think it is more important and suspicious that it almost certainly is in reality. --Nickhh (talk) 08:46, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- Notes:
- I'm not sure on what content was inserted through Arutz Sheva, but they are not an entirely bad source, and they do clarify as a wiki-reliable source when when attributed by name and not used to push an exceptional claim. Criticism of Gideon Levi, btw, is a good example of a fairly mainstream perspective and he's admittedly on a minority view even among people who, in general, support a similar left-wing ideology. Regardless, I would not use them alone if the issue was criticism of Levi.
- Personal perspective are rather unimportant for the issue of the autopsy. What matters is what reliable sources note - and the lack of autopsy was noted in the 'Three Bullets and a Dead Child' documentary as a highly problematic issue.
- Cheers, JaakobouChalk Talk 14:00, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- This is repeated so often by you Jaakobou, that I would appreciate some source for the view that Levy is a 'left-wing ideologist'. I just thought he was an Israeli reporter doing his job, reporting directly on what he sees and hears in the Occupied territories. I say this because in my own country, the most severely critical reporter of the right-wing, who is published only in left-wing sources, happens to be a right-winger (Marco Travaglio), and he gets upset at being labelled a 'left-wing'er or 'ideologist' . Nishidani (talk) 15:13, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- Levy embraces the terminology and self admittedly suggests that he's (a) at a minority viewpoint even at Haaretz which is already occasionally criticised for anti-Zionism, and (b) that he believes Israel has had its justice and he sees his purpose to make justice™ happen for the Palestinians. There's also a few other issues which culminate with several notable occasions of widespread criticism against his approach to publicistic journalism.
- Sample source: סיכום המפגש עם העיתונאי גדעון לוי, מתאריך 26.2.2002
- Translation:
- Is it correct that you are left alone at Haaretz with these opinions of yours?
- I'm not alone at Haaretz but I am at a minority, but it is ok. Original:- אם נכון שבהארץ נותרת בודד במערכת בדעותיך אלו?
- אני לא בודד בעיתון הארץ, אם כי אני במיעוט, אבל זה בסדר.
- Translation:
- Sample source: סיכום המפגש עם העיתונאי גדעון לוי, מתאריך 26.2.2002
- Cheers, JaakobouChalk Talk 15:35, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- Levy embraces the terminology and self admittedly suggests that he's (a) at a minority viewpoint even at Haaretz which is already occasionally criticised for anti-Zionism, and (b) that he believes Israel has had its justice and he sees his purpose to make justice™ happen for the Palestinians. There's also a few other issues which culminate with several notable occasions of widespread criticism against his approach to publicistic journalism.
- Thanks, but this is not what I asked for clarification on. I asked why you keep branding Levy as a 'leftwing ideologist', not whether he was 'left' alone at Haaretz. 'Left' in the sense of 'abandoned, on one's own, isolated' is derived from the verb 'leave'. 'Left' in the political sense derives from a ME adjective which, you'll be absolutely delighted to hear, originally meant 'lame, weak'. They are two distinct words. I think someone else here likes calling such remarks 'strawman' arguments. Cheers.Nishidani (talk) 15:43, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- I was thinking that the nature of Haaretz would be clear but feel free to review the article about them. The above reference places Gideon as a fringe voice among an already politically identifiable (left-wing) paper. Do explain to me why you'd suggest a completely different issue than what the source explains. I'd assume no one would suggest that the source mention spolitical affiliation as it only deals with the position of fringe vs. mainstream. Was it not clear that Haaretz is politically affiliated with the Left-wing camp?
- Sincerely, JaakobouChalk Talk 19:53, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- More news to me. No more leftwing than the New York Times, Le Monde, el pais, FAZ, or Pravda, Mainichi Shinbun or the Beijing Times. In short, you like to think of GL, a writer who thinks for himself, as a leftwinger and an ideologist because he is critical of Israel. As long as that is cleared up, fine. We're getting off the track, and should close it at that.Nishidani (talk) 20:06, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- Nah, it's not even remotely close to being a matter of my personal viewing of Gideon Levy, not at all. This is an issue of mainstream perspective and you are more than welcome to review some relevant content or ask for further clarifications of someone to help you understand if something is unclear. Anyways, if it was not clear that Haaretz is politically affiliated with the Left-wing camp, then a review of their article should clear this point up quickly. JaakobouChalk Talk 09:10, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- Lord Keynes said today's commonsense is yesterday's radical minoritarian view. Time domesticates scandalous insight into 'mainstream' commonsense. David Grossman, interviewed by Bianca Berlinguer last night here, said it was odd how even the Israeli right wing was now saying things that just a few Israelis, accused at the time for 'extremism' were saying in the 80s. You're young. These things are more apparent to the old, to otherwise demented fogies like myself, who don't fear dissent in communities, because they tolerate dissent in themselves as a sign of vitality. End of soapbox.Nishidani (talk) 09:25, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- Being old and/or young has absolutely nothing to do with fear of dissent in communities (no intention to take a dig at the "vitality theory" but it's statistically false). JaakobouChalk Talk 09:54, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- Lord Keynes said today's commonsense is yesterday's radical minoritarian view. Time domesticates scandalous insight into 'mainstream' commonsense. David Grossman, interviewed by Bianca Berlinguer last night here, said it was odd how even the Israeli right wing was now saying things that just a few Israelis, accused at the time for 'extremism' were saying in the 80s. You're young. These things are more apparent to the old, to otherwise demented fogies like myself, who don't fear dissent in communities, because they tolerate dissent in themselves as a sign of vitality. End of soapbox.Nishidani (talk) 09:25, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- Nah, it's not even remotely close to being a matter of my personal viewing of Gideon Levy, not at all. This is an issue of mainstream perspective and you are more than welcome to review some relevant content or ask for further clarifications of someone to help you understand if something is unclear. Anyways, if it was not clear that Haaretz is politically affiliated with the Left-wing camp, then a review of their article should clear this point up quickly. JaakobouChalk Talk 09:10, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
I have used another citation Wall Street Journal Europe and maintained the Arutz 7 as it has been cited over 200 times on wiki already [9] thus demonstrating a general acceptance of its validity. I also re-inserted it with slightly different wording where it was originally near the top regarding Abu-Rahma's testimony. It is necessary there rather than at the end of all his testimony since if a reader decides that he has indeed retracted his testimony, he may not want to read it all. To leave it out or put in in the end would itself be "weasel-ly." Now regarding the indignation around my comments about Levy, let me just add that I have never removed a Levy quote unless it was clearly an opinion being quoted as a fact. I may not like some sources, but if they are legit I have to put up with them, just like every other editor here. Tundrabuggy (talk) 16:00, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- Re Arutz Sheva:
- Those are not "cites" to its news content, those are references to it in other articles. That's very different thing
- Even if they were, that would prove zilch about whether it's actually an RS or not. It would merely suggest there are large numbers of cavalier pov editors here, happy to see material sourced to it. This would not be news to me
- WP:RSN is the forum where reliability of sources is considered, not number of mentions elsewhere
- As to sources generally:
- WP rules are quite clear that mainstream news media (and therefore of course the journalists who publish under their editorial control) are reliable sources for issues of reported "fact" - even when sourced to bylined comment pieces, since they are mostly subject to editorial oversight as well (pure comment or conjecture should though, as you suggest, be properly described as such).
- By contrast self-appointed "news" organisations, blogs, partisan online magazines, campaign groups etc either are not, or at least have to be treated with due caution (and following WP:UNDUE, WP:SELFPUB etc); and, when their content is used, it has to be at the very least properly attributed.
- And a final point - surely when you do find Levy's "opinion" supposedly "quoted as fact" in articles, the better edit would be to correct that purported error rather than remove the content altogether? It would also be interesting to see where you draw the distinction between what you see as being his "opinion" and what is "fact". --Nickhh (talk) 16:25, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- Actually, Levy's views are quite fringe and he doesn't report anything but rather writes opinion pieces. His opinions should be removed on many occasions, certainly when they are used for exceptional claims and/or political ramming. As for Arutz Sheva, they are a wiki-reliable regardless of their right-wing affiliation. To the point, what is the content issue that is objected? maybe we can resolve this as we would with other cases and without wiki-lawyering over it? JaakobouChalk Talk 20:03, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- The great voices of the OT prophetic tradition were also quite fringe, all critical of the kingdom, and its majorities. That is where people, from Spinoza to GL are coming from, in terms of their own tradition. They are far more 'Jewish' in their witness to the unpalatable realities than you realize. Cheers Nishidani (talk) 20:09, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- Heyo Nishidani,
- I'm not sure what your comment is meant for, and to be frank it would seem like a bit of offtopic soapboxing. Just to clarify the sentiments you shared though, are you suggesting Gideon Levy is a great man of the levels of Spinoza just because he objects any form of Zionism (but promotes Arab nationalism)? JaakobouChalk Talk 09:16, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- To compare is not to conflate. We are, in Bible writ, made in the image (tselem) of God, there is a spark of divinity in all of us, it would follow. Not for that are we God8s). CheersNishidani (talk) 09:28, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- I think you understand how silly the comparison was. Good to see you're taking a step back from it. JaakobouChalk Talk 09:59, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- To compare is not to conflate. We are, in Bible writ, made in the image (tselem) of God, there is a spark of divinity in all of us, it would follow. Not for that are we God8s). CheersNishidani (talk) 09:28, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- The great voices of the OT prophetic tradition were also quite fringe, all critical of the kingdom, and its majorities. That is where people, from Spinoza to GL are coming from, in terms of their own tradition. They are far more 'Jewish' in their witness to the unpalatable realities than you realize. Cheers Nishidani (talk) 20:09, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- Actually, Levy's views are quite fringe and he doesn't report anything but rather writes opinion pieces. His opinions should be removed on many occasions, certainly when they are used for exceptional claims and/or political ramming. As for Arutz Sheva, they are a wiki-reliable regardless of their right-wing affiliation. To the point, what is the content issue that is objected? maybe we can resolve this as we would with other cases and without wiki-lawyering over it? JaakobouChalk Talk 20:03, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- And Jaakobou, this is an important general point about reliable media sources. If Levy - or anyone else - reports or refers to matters of apparent fact within their pieces, then this will (presumably) have been subject to fact-checking and editorial oversight as much as anything else published in Haaretz, which makes it fine as an RS. To the extent that they analyse or comment on those matters, that can still be used - when appropriate and if with due weight - but with the qualifier Gideon Levy "says", "accuses", whatever. The fact that TB can now claim that they'll (unhappily) tolerate some material sourced to Levy, even if they will occasionally "remove" other parts when they so choose is bad enough; but of course this is not what they were saying three or four paragraphs previously. In fact they said, to remind us all, far less equivocally - "Just because he is a Haaretz writer should not lend his material any credibility whatsoever. He is blinded by his own prejudices, and when and unless there is corroboration, he should not be considered a RS". That statement about a writer in the mainstream media is as blind to both reality and to WP policy as yours is about Arutz Sheva being "wiki-reliable". Please feel free to take either point to RSN. At the end of the day, all we are discussing again is whether you and TB like or dislike the views of Gideon Levy/Haaretz and Arutz Sheva respectively, as opposed to what controls and processes apply to each of them. This is not interesting. --Nickhh (talk) 21:47, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- Heyo Nickhh,
- Levy is not exactly on the same level of other Harretz writers. I'd place him in the whereabouts of Robert Fisk who published claims that Israel used Depleted Uranium when there wasn't a shred of viable evidence and, off course, a Lebanese team of investigators found nothing to support this story. He has been publicly condemned for exactly what Tundrabuggy says here (i.e. "blinded by his own prejudices") and as a fringe perspective, he should be avoided as a source as one would make an effort to avoid the likes of CAMERA. I don't see a need to bring Arutz Sheva to RSN since I currently don't even know what the issue is about as you've missed my question. I don't blame you considering the kibitzing of fellow editor about Haaretz being like other papers regardless of the content on their article. However, it wouldn't hurt to know what the content dispute is about so the argument is better understood (this is not the RSN after-all). JaakobouChalk Talk 09:46, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- Robert Fisk? Another on the list. I don't know what circles you move in, but if you repeat that remark to any major journalist, or even ME area specialist in the world, they'd probably laugh at you. Nishidani (talk) 15:26, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think there's much to laugh at. Fisk made a very serious allegation sans evidence and his very serious allegation was deemed false by a reliable reviewer. You'd expect a decent paper to at least publish a retraction, let alone an apology but, best I'm aware, no such thing has occurred. JaakobouChalk Talk 04:25, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
- That looks like a particularly wanton case of BLP - Fisk reported lab results alleging that DU ammunition was used by Israel in Lebanon in 2006 (or rather, reactor waste, not DU). The UN results failed to confirm this claim (one headline says it's untru) and there may be worries about the lab result.
- Meanwhile, the article claims (presumably correctly?) that Israel has already been caught lying over questionable weapons it's used in Lebanon (white phosphorus, implied to be a chemical weapon when used by Saddam). The "known" lies of Israel are much, much more notable than the correct reporting of (maybe) questionable lab-results. PRtalk 11:34, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think there's much to laugh at. Fisk made a very serious allegation sans evidence and his very serious allegation was deemed false by a reliable reviewer. You'd expect a decent paper to at least publish a retraction, let alone an apology but, best I'm aware, no such thing has occurred. JaakobouChalk Talk 04:25, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
- Robert Fisk? Another on the list. I don't know what circles you move in, but if you repeat that remark to any major journalist, or even ME area specialist in the world, they'd probably laugh at you. Nishidani (talk) 15:26, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- Just as a point of interest Nishi: The word "Jewish" has been used on this talk page six times, five of them by you, and one by PR to make a reference to what he calls "Jewish duplicity." I really am not clear how this article bears on "Jewish" in the least. Are you by some chance equating "Jewish" with "Israeli" or "Zionist"? I am sure you must be clear that there are Muslim and Christian and secular Israelis, as well as Christian and secular Zionists? (I am not sure about Muslim Zionists -- I know there are one or two).Tundrabuggy (talk) 21:18, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- Um, I'm sure you are aware that you are quoting PR's comment out of context there, are you not? As for Nishidani's comments, as far as I've ever noticed his quotes of or references to "Jewish" thinkers and philosophy are by and large very positive, unless I've been missing something. And of course the point sometimes is precisely that there are rather obvious differences between Jews, Judaism, Israel and Zionism. Finally, as far as I can recall, you are the one who first raised nationality/ethnicity here, with your - to be honest - rather transparent (even if you subsequently denied it) slurs about Palestinian journalists and their alleged "missions", which you tried to rationalise by prattling on about the individual in question's freelance status and the - often real, for various reasons - travails of working in the Occupied Territories. --Nickhh (talk) 21:51, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- Um, regarding your comment that there are "rather obvious differences between Jews, Judaism, Israel and Zionism" ... that is like saying that there are rather obvious differences between Muslims, Islam, the Arab nations, and Pan-Arabism. .....um, yeah. My point is -- this article has zip all to do with "Jewish." Here are Nishi's Jewish comments on this page. Perhaps you want to take a stab at explaining their relevancy to this article? I look forward to your fisking:
- Um, I'm sure you are aware that you are quoting PR's comment out of context there, are you not? As for Nishidani's comments, as far as I've ever noticed his quotes of or references to "Jewish" thinkers and philosophy are by and large very positive, unless I've been missing something. And of course the point sometimes is precisely that there are rather obvious differences between Jews, Judaism, Israel and Zionism. Finally, as far as I can recall, you are the one who first raised nationality/ethnicity here, with your - to be honest - rather transparent (even if you subsequently denied it) slurs about Palestinian journalists and their alleged "missions", which you tried to rationalise by prattling on about the individual in question's freelance status and the - often real, for various reasons - travails of working in the Occupied Territories. --Nickhh (talk) 21:51, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- "‘Legal documents defining the powers of the military censorship committee, . .were published for the first time ever by Haaretz on last 26 November. They are based on the British ‘Defence Regulations’ of 1945, originally devised to suppress Jewish underground organizations."
- "In this context, Peri (1993) noted that “the history of the Jewish people and the Zionist movement have left a deep imprint on Israeli perception of security. Israeli views on the subject rest on a deep foundation of beliefs and fundamental presuppositions regarding basic issues of Jewish collective existence: Is the world essentially hostile or not? . .Is national existence guaranteed . .or does the threat of annihilation constantly hover over us”(346)?’"
- "This is an eminently respectable view, shared by people like Henry Siegman, or Nahum Goldmann or thousands of others who think or thought, work and worked within the mainstream of their Jewish communities."
- "The truth lies in details, not in ethno-labelling everything as Israeli/Jewish or Arab/Palestinian, which is language that lends itself to antisemitism, or anti-Semitism (anti-Arab racism)."
- "They are far more 'Jewish' in their witness to the unpalatable realities than you realize."
- As for my comment regarding "Jewish duplicity" ...that was as out-of-context as the original PR comment. If PR has a problem with a source, that's what this talk page is about. I for one have no idea whatever at to what he is referring. Perhaps you can enlighten me there as well. Best wishes, Tundrabuggy (talk) 04:13, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- What's so difficult to understand about the statement "... we use a source that speaks of "Palestinian duplicity" the day we use sources that speak of "Jewish duplicity"."? I take this to be a defense (indeed, championing) of using a propaganda-cum-attack-source that does no investigation whatsoever.
- Worse is to follow - there were other deeply unpleasant sources in that mini-list, including the publishers of this: Little terrorists-in-training and Palestinian spokespersons ... practiced liar if ever there was one.
- This comes on top of your treatment of Palestinian employees of Reuters - editors will be puzzled at the freedom you have to edit this article - and in particular, your freedom to waste the time of careful and scholarly editors. PR
- As for my comment regarding "Jewish duplicity" ...that was as out-of-context as the original PR comment. If PR has a problem with a source, that's what this talk page is about. I for one have no idea whatever at to what he is referring. Perhaps you can enlighten me there as well. Best wishes, Tundrabuggy (talk) 04:13, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
talk 12:24, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
- No one has put such comments up in this article and I would be the first to reject them if the they did. While the facts related might be true, I would expect another source to reference them (the facts), not one that is so obviously biased -- unless of course one is speaking of the reaction of one side. There is no doubt you are going to be able to find equivalent statements on both sides. That is why, although some of the biased sources may be used, if they are the only ones making a particular (contentious) claim, I believe they should not be used, or cited specifically as an individual connected with an agency or group, eg Ahmed Jadallah above. Tundrabuggy (talk) 15:15, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
- What are you fishing for, TB? Are you saying there is something suspicious about my citing texts that use the adjective 'Jewish', or that a gentle remonstrance with an editor who appears to underwrite Rashi's doctine Kol Yisrael areivim zeh lazeh as a political statement,by reminding that 'Israel' has a great tradition of prophetic dissent, smacks of anti-semitism? The voice crying in a wilderness (Isaiah) against the consensus of regal or centralized power is one of the great ornaments of our Western tradition: you don't find it in Greece, where my cultural and intellectual bias lies, but in, yes, 'Jewish' tradition, which, by its example, gave democracy an indispensable figure of minority witness. All democratic dissent, in this sense, is an echo of our immense debt to what is 'Jewish' in Western civilization. I acknowledge my debts. If you find something problematical in that, well, as they say in the Antipodes old chum, 'stiff cheddar'. Nishidani (talk) 08:56, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- I'm thinking Tundrabuggy is certainly not "fishing", but rather making a note that your use of Jewish sources or the word "Jewish" is not relevant much. This brings to mind old memories when I was offended when you used the reasoning "he's Jewish" to try and persuade me to change the death toll of the 1929 Hebron Massacre. Just a suggestion, but perhaps if you should try just avoiding (or cut back on) random quotes then these issues won't have much reason to re-surface. JaakobouChalk Talk 10:19, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- Oh come now, Jaak. If I were English and you were (like me ethnically Irish) and I cited Tom Reilly as a RS on Cromwell, a figure hated in Ireland, and you refused it as an RS because you didn't know who Reilly was, and I answered, 'After all, Reilly is Irish' aside from a dozen other considerations (translation: you may suspect my edits because I'm English, given our centuries' long enmity, but you shouldn't suspect a source written by an Irish historian as though it were untenable simply because an English editor refers to it), I doubt whether my use of 'Irish' in this way would 'offend'. I really do not understand this readiness to parade a sense of offense. You could, knowing my ethnic background, remind me that the Irish are like mushrooms, raised on bullshit and thriving in darkness, and I'd smile knowingly. I said Sir Martin Gilbert was 'Jewish' because at that time editors were chucking out reliable sources like Walter Laqueur, Benny Morris, Lenni Brenner, and, at that point, Sir Martin because they wanted me to 'prove' these were RS, and actually, as with Sir Martin, simply did not look up the books to discover that I was inserting information from impeccable, and distinguished sources (well Lenni's a ratbag like myself, but his book on Zionism is of recognized quality). Exasperated I noted he was 'Jewish'. The message was = 'If you suspect I am posting anti-semitic information, or suspect I have it in for the Jewish people, please note what you are unaware of, i.e. I am using only sources written by eminent Jewish scholars, several of whom happen indeed to be Zionists, so drop the air of paranoia, and let's get on with it'. This was all donkey's years ago, and there was no offense there, nor here. Nishidani (talk) 13:31, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, there was a very real offense. To remind, the offense was that Martin's notes were misunderstood/misrepresented and a factual error was being promoted with "he's Jewish" as some sorts of argument, supposedly to persuade an editor to lower a death toll of a massacre of Jews. I'm thinking we've discussed this enough as I'm getting peeved again reminiscing the old edit war on the death toll count and how the numbers were lowered from 67 to 58 repeatedly. I don't think there's too much paranoia going around since selective thinking/reading and soapboxing for The Victimised™ could irritate even the best of us. As a side note, I'm thinking that making Gideon Levy into some type of martyr or a great philosopher is an example of editorial carelessness and something which should be avoided -- it's certainly refreshing though when a notice for these issues are received with a level of seriousness. JaakobouChalk Talk 14:47, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- No, not at all. Sir Martin made no factual error. His error was not to give the overall figure as calculated two weeks later, but only the figure published in the Palestine Post on the day after the massacre. Give a link to the original discussion and let the bored browser of this off-point interlude decide for herself, if so interested. The number 67/8 is wrong, and yet stands, simply because at least 2 people in that figure were not massacred, but died of heart attacks from the shock of having witnessed that carnage, one of them in Jerusalem, several days afterwards. Keep 'massacre' or murdered with that number as subject and the text will be wrong. Most RS say 67, some 68, a good many vary 64-65. St Martin correctly stated the number of dead buried in a mass funeral on the day, 59, a figure which excluded, as I have noted, those who died of wounds in the aftermath, who should be included. I own to a sense of being offended when an obligation to honour the facts, irrespective of whatever party may be seen as advantaged by them, is not fulfilled. Can we drop this? The page requires editing on topic Nishidani (talk) 15:17, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, there was a very real offense. To remind, the offense was that Martin's notes were misunderstood/misrepresented and a factual error was being promoted with "he's Jewish" as some sorts of argument, supposedly to persuade an editor to lower a death toll of a massacre of Jews. I'm thinking we've discussed this enough as I'm getting peeved again reminiscing the old edit war on the death toll count and how the numbers were lowered from 67 to 58 repeatedly. I don't think there's too much paranoia going around since selective thinking/reading and soapboxing for The Victimised™ could irritate even the best of us. As a side note, I'm thinking that making Gideon Levy into some type of martyr or a great philosopher is an example of editorial carelessness and something which should be avoided -- it's certainly refreshing though when a notice for these issues are received with a level of seriousness. JaakobouChalk Talk 14:47, 22 November 2008 (UTC)