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*Why would we have mediation? We have a good compromise proposal above, the one by Resolute, that most of us can sign up to. I believe Ludwigs2 would be fine with that too. --'''<font color="#0000FF">[[User:Jayen466|J]]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">[[User_Talk:Jayen466|N]]</font><font color="#0000FF">[[Special:Contributions/Jayen466|466]]</font>''' 21:36, 27 November 2011 (UTC) |
*Why would we have mediation? We have a good compromise proposal above, the one by Resolute, that most of us can sign up to. I believe Ludwigs2 would be fine with that too. --'''<font color="#0000FF">[[User:Jayen466|J]]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">[[User_Talk:Jayen466|N]]</font><font color="#0000FF">[[Special:Contributions/Jayen466|466]]</font>''' 21:36, 27 November 2011 (UTC) |
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:*While I might be able to sign on to that proposal as well, I am leaning to believe it is a stopgap measure when efforts to continue this beyond said proposal are well underway.[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Anthonyhcole#What_is_the_problem_with_controversial_image_use_on_Wikipedia.3F] To be 100% honest, that makes it seem like the compromise is nothing more than a distraction until the efforts to remove all "offensive" images continues. Now, '''while no one may have that exact intent in mind''', you and I can probably agree that such will be the exact results of such. Kinda makes it all seem pointless. Honestly, if an outsider looked at this, don't you think the first thing they'd see was ''"Look a truce (compromise)!!! Oh, wait... the next attack is already being planned by this side."'' - again, whether that's the intended reasoning or not; we know that will be the end result. Best, <small>[[User:RobertMfromLI|R<small>OBERT</small>M<small>FROM</small>LI]] </small>|<small><small> <sup>[[User talk:RobertMfromLI|TK]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/RobertMfromLI|CN]]</sub></small></small> 21:46, 27 November 2011 (UTC) |
:*While I might be able to sign on to that proposal as well, I am leaning to believe it is a stopgap measure when efforts to continue this beyond said proposal are well underway.[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Anthonyhcole#What_is_the_problem_with_controversial_image_use_on_Wikipedia.3F] To be 100% honest, that makes it seem like the compromise is nothing more than a distraction until the efforts to remove all "offensive" images continues. Now, '''while no one may have that exact intent in mind''', you and I can probably agree that such will be the exact results of such. Kinda makes it all seem pointless. Honestly, if an outsider looked at this, don't you think the first thing they'd see was ''"Look a truce (compromise)!!! Oh, wait... the next attack is already being planned by this side."'' - again, whether that's the intended reasoning or not; we know that will be the end result. Best, <small>[[User:RobertMfromLI|R<small>OBERT</small>M<small>FROM</small>LI]] </small>|<small><small> <sup>[[User talk:RobertMfromLI|TK]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/RobertMfromLI|CN]]</sub></small></small> 21:46, 27 November 2011 (UTC) |
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:**Well, I herewith put it in writing, linkable to for all the time Wikipedia continues to exist, that ''I'' will defend this compromise as a reasonable one, and will not take any active part in overturning it. ;) --'''<font color="#0000FF">[[User:Jayen466|J]]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">[[User_Talk:Jayen466|N]]</font><font color="#0000FF">[[Special:Contributions/Jayen466|466]]</font>''' 23:16, 27 November 2011 (UTC) |
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== Discussion at [[WT:NOT]] == |
== Discussion at [[WT:NOT]] == |
Revision as of 23:16, 27 November 2011
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To RfC or not to RfC?
That is the question. Any thoughts? Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 18:11, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
- Not much of a point, IMO. Religious fundamentalism is never going to be a concern to take into account when making editorial decisions in this project. Tarc (talk) 19:10, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
- Support Tarc's understanding of the issues; with the understanding that if specific issues are believed not to be noteworthy, believed to be incorrect (ie: wrong person), believed to be improperly cited (such as the recent one fixed by Johnbod and Wiqi55), that I'm willing to help with such issues. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 19:15, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
There will be an RfC: I'm just waiting on Anthony, who said that RL was in the way for a few days. --Ludwigs2 19:17, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
- No one gets to say "No, we can't have an RfC on this." Pretty much the only justification for not having one would be 1) if this were being already discussed at some other forum (like if ArbCom had taken the case) or 2) if we'd just had one and nothing had changed. We haven't just had an RfC, and even if we had, something has changed--the WMF resolution. We can certainly discuss in an RfC if the resolution applies (most currently think that while it applies, the precise wording means we're still doing the right thing now by keeping the images). But the whole nature of dispute resolution, collegial editing, and the consensus means that if one person feels like the "local" editors aren't covering the issues consistently with policy, that person has every right and, one might even argue, responsibility, to raise the issue to the wider community. In fact, Ludwigs two can go through the whole chain of DR if he wants to, from RfC to DRN to mediation to Arbcom, if so warranted. It's absolutely unacceptable to say "Well, we all agree, so that's the end of the discussion." If editors could say that, it would mean dispute resolution would be impossible. While I probably (though not certainly) disagree with Ludwigs2 on this issue, I certainly support his use of our policies and procedures to address the issue. In fact, I consider the notion of anyone trying to stop dispute resolution as potentially disruptive editing. Qwyrxian (talk) 04:25, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
- Ah, then perhaps you understand the problem we are running into every time we try to hash out an RfC proposal? It's not a matter of trying to stop it - it's a matter of giving up on trying to start it with such interference for tendentious purposes. ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 07:26, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
- By the way, I support anyone's (including Ludwigs2's) use of policy to address any issue. But I do not support the misuse of policy by playing Whack-A-Mole with it as has been done above. This isn't "let's go through every policy until I find one that fits to get my way" nor is it "let's ignore a policy because it changes a lot, and justify that by citing IAR" nor is it "I dont care about consensus, I've got my WP:DEADHORSE". Nor is it "let's propose biased questions that ask (1) should we delete the images for this reason? (2) should we delete the images for this reason or (3) should we delete it for this reason?". And, as you know, certain arguments ("it's against others' religious beliefs and thus offends them") can be summarily dismissed (in light of countless consensus indicating relevance and importance of the images). Would you like diffs for all of that, or just the time to catch up on reading things here? (no, that's not sarcasm) Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 07:44, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
- Before we request comment from other editors, I'd like to settle the question I raised above, whether and how this article should discuss images of Muhammad, because what the text of the article covers may affect which images, or types of image, the community believes are appropriate for the article. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 10:11, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
- How long does an RrC last once it's opened? Originally I had not planned on taking part (I don't contribute loads to this page) however now I have been polarised to a position and intend to stick to it. Once it is RfC'd will people accept it is the next question, or will we start beating a dead horse? Tivanir2 (talk) 14:04, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
- RfC's typically last 30 days, though in some cases they may be closed early by someone uninvolved. ideally, RfC's don't require a lot of attention - pretty much it is waiting around until people respond - but in practice they often become an extension of the argument. hopefully that won't happen here.
- There obviously should be a mention of the proscription against images of Muhammad, since its such a central element of the faith. I've been avoiding adding it myself because there's enough of a kerfluffle on the talk page without extending it to article space, but maybe I'll try an addition later today. all that really needs to be added, I think is a short discussion of the theological roots of the proscription. If I remember correctly, it has to do with the belief that Muhammad is a prophet of God, and images of God or his messengers are considered idolatry. But I could be wrong (it's been a long time since I last examined Islamic doctrine). --Ludwigs2 15:13, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
- See, when you make statements like this, I begin to wonder just how much you actually know about the subject area. The "forbidden image" shtick is not a "central element", it is not mentioned in the Qu'ran, and most Shias don't oppose visual depictions. Opposition to the images within Wikipedia seems to stem from people hand-wringing everytime some anonymous people fire up an entry at petitiononline.com. Tarc (talk) 16:06, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)Ludwigs2: Policy FORBIDS us from taking that into account. Policy FORBIDS us from biasing the RfC process. And Policy FORBIDS us from asking an RfC in a fashion where every question asks or implies "should we delete the images for this reason or this one?". And IAR is NOT a magic wand you can use to get your way, which is all you want. Nearing completion of an RfC of my own, which such BAD FAITH efforts above may soon require. ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 16:11, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
- You should start at Aniconism in Islam, where I expect you will find the "doctrine" less emphatic than you expect. It is essentially all based on hadith, and interestingly specifically condemnatory of those who make images rather than consume them. Note also that the Persianate tradition of images developed among Sunnis for a couple of centuries before the rulers of Persia turned Shia. Johnbod (talk) 16:49, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
- The Sunni claim is merely a modern speculation. I'm not aware of any concrete evidence for such a claim. Also, idolatry is only one side of this debate, the other being misinformation. It goes without saying that images convey information (or misinformation) more effectively than text. Wiqi(55) 17:23, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
- If by "Sunni claim" you mean my point just above, I can well believe you are not aware of "any concrete evidence" but reading a basic book or two on the subject would solve that problem. Johnbod (talk) 17:56, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
- Guys, please decide whether you're going to accuse me of being a Muslim advocate or of not knowing enough about the faith; you can use one ad hominem or the other, but trying to use both is confusing. Funny, but confusing.
- The Sunni claim is merely a modern speculation. I'm not aware of any concrete evidence for such a claim. Also, idolatry is only one side of this debate, the other being misinformation. It goes without saying that images convey information (or misinformation) more effectively than text. Wiqi(55) 17:23, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
- There obviously should be a mention of the proscription against images of Muhammad, since its such a central element of the faith. I've been avoiding adding it myself because there's enough of a kerfluffle on the talk page without extending it to article space, but maybe I'll try an addition later today. all that really needs to be added, I think is a short discussion of the theological roots of the proscription. If I remember correctly, it has to do with the belief that Muhammad is a prophet of God, and images of God or his messengers are considered idolatry. But I could be wrong (it's been a long time since I last examined Islamic doctrine). --Ludwigs2 15:13, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
- @Tarc: we are not here to engage in the Shia/Sunni doctrinal debate. That is a real-world conflict that we can report on, but not one we argue about ourselves. If your argument (setting aside your hand-wringing straw men) is that we are only offending 80% of Muslims rather than 100%, your point is noted.
- @Robert: You're wrong on nearly every point, and typing in capital letters doesn't make you any less wrong. NOTCENSORED does not obviate NPOV or Consensus, which is what you are trying to use it to do. sorry.
- @John: These are all very good points that probably deserve mention in the article, but they don't have a place in talk page discussion: you cannot make the argument that it's ok to offend group A without reason simply because group B is not offended. The point I keep trying to make here (which none of you actually ever engage) is that it is unethical (and damaging to the project's reputation) for us to offend people without a good encyclopedic reason for doing so. do you disagree with that statement? --Ludwigs2 17:40, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)To Wiqi55: That is true (idolatry), and applies to multiple religions, including various sects of Christianity, where no statue or image of Jesus is allowed for just such a reason - much less of "Euro-Jesus" which is equally an inaccurate portrayal of the actual Jesus as the images on this article. I think on the misinformation end, our (numerous of us, you greatly included) efforts to properly cite the images has taken us a long way in that respect here. Your additional efforts with "Depiction of" and adding more information to each have taken us staggeringly farther (and have gathered a lot of respect and admiration from me for your efforts). Which reminds me, your comments on re-adding (and wording of) the "Depictions..." section above would be greatly appreciated.
- In general: this brings me back to my RfC proposal above, which (other than simply removing all images because Ludwigs2 wants such) actually addresses every point made (including all other points by Ludwigs2 and the new resolution) without crippling the procedure or guaranteeing an outcome. I think (ie: my opinion) that every other proposal so far creates a scenario that is "remove all or keep all" or (Ludwig2's) "remove all for this reason or remove all for this reason". I think my proposal is the only one on the table that allows each image to stand or fall on it's merits (historical value, relevance, etc) and thus also fits directly within the application of the new resolution - if it does not meet all of those criteria, we delete (and it falls on the "remove" side of the resolution). If an image does meet all of those criteria, then per other policies and the resolution, we keep. In effect, it covers every matter brought up above, and I hope that, for those who want to see every image remain, that they'll trust that the community will fairly judge each on each aspect I've been noting to make such a case (or be unable to make a case, prompting deletion). Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 17:48, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
- Ludwigs: _____ ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 17:48, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
- I would genuinely be happy with a picture by picture proposal as this allows the weeding out of irrelevant works (kicks black stone again.) As for a blanket get rid of all pictures I think it would be a waste of time. If we vote for the removal of all it will most likely fall on its face and nothing changes even though some changes might need to be made. Tivanir2 (talk) 17:55, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
- Exactly! Meaning we are already starting with a bias (which is what I am trying to avoid). I think they should all stay, but am putting a lot of effort into not creating a proposal to suit my desires (otherwise, knowing the outcome, I'd pick one of the others and have put nothing on the table). Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 18:02, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
- Robert: I'm more than happy to discuss image-by-image (as I've said multiple times, since you seem to have missed it). I just start from the opposite perspective from you - I want to see good, credible reasons to keep images so as not to unnecessarily offend. That being said, please see point 3 of my post in the section above, which outlines a compromise (creating an 'art history' section in which we discuss the controversy as Anthony has laid it out and put a selection of these images of Muhammad there). --Ludwigs2 18:17, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
- Exactly! Meaning we are already starting with a bias (which is what I am trying to avoid). I think they should all stay, but am putting a lot of effort into not creating a proposal to suit my desires (otherwise, knowing the outcome, I'd pick one of the others and have put nothing on the table). Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 18:02, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
- I would genuinely be happy with a picture by picture proposal as this allows the weeding out of irrelevant works (kicks black stone again.) As for a blanket get rid of all pictures I think it would be a waste of time. If we vote for the removal of all it will most likely fall on its face and nothing changes even though some changes might need to be made. Tivanir2 (talk) 17:55, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
OK, now you're talking section (as opposed to article)? Or did I misread your intent above, or did you simply misstate your intent above? If it's any of those, I may need to retract my comment above in response to it. I still disagree with it, as currently suggested, but I'd be willing to work on it and reconsider it. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 18:21, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
- Hmmm… since this is a possible arena for compromise, let me outline it in a new thread, below.--Ludwigs2 18:55, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
What started this conversation was concern that the use of controversial images in this article may not be in conformity with the principles and guidance outlined in the Board's May resolution. Above, Qwyrxian says, "We can certainly discuss in an RfC if the resolution applies (most currently think that while it applies, the precise wording means we're still doing the right thing now by keeping the images." Can I propose the following, or something like it, for the RfC question?
Should the use of images in Muhammad conform to the principles and guidance contained in the Wikimedia Foundation's May 2011 resolution on controversial content? If it should, does it?
If everyone is agreed that this article should conform to the resolution, we could leave out the first part and simply ask
Does the use of images in Muhammad conform to the principles and guidance contained in the Wikimedia Foundation's May 2011 resolution on controversial content?
--Anthonyhcole (talk) 15:14, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
- Anthony: This is interesting, but I'm not sure it gets at the core of the problem. I suspect we would get an overwhelming 'support' vote for both of these questions, and still find ourselves in the same dispute over interpretation of what that means.
- The real problem we are having is clarifying the proper attitude that wikipedia should take towards controversial material. basically it's a disagreement on this dimension:
- Controversial material should be avoided except where there's a clear mandate for its use
- Controversial material should be preserved except where there's a clear mandate for its removal
- The first is promoted as reasonable and ethical, and opposed as (at times) censorship; the second is promoted as free and open, and opposed as (at times) aggressively biased. How can we tweak your questions to resolve that problem? --Ludwigs2 16:05, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
- Once again, a fraudulent argument. We do not dip and bow to every single thing every single person may find objectionable. This is political correctness run amok. For the umpteenth time, that some people do not like images of Muhammad to be displayed is not a concern will will take when editing this page. Tarc (talk) 16:08, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
- Tarc, I understand from your comments that you firmly believe you are the final authority of everything said on this page. I would ask you, however, to consider the possibility that you might be wrong. I'm not saying you are, mind you; I'm just saying there is a debate to be had on this issue, and huffing and puffing in this way doesn't do anything except get in the way of rational discussion. --Ludwigs2 16:31, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
- Tarc, you assert (again) that controversy around content should not affect inclusion. That conflicts with the Foundation principle. Hence, we need community input. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 02:15, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- Ludwigs, I'm not certain we have to follow the Foundation's guidance. I doubt that this article conforms to it, and would expect most editors, provided the case is well put, to agree that it doesn't. You don't get content much more controversial than this, or images of much less relevant educational value. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 02:15, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- Anthony, THE FOUNDATION RESOLUTION HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RELIGIOUS FUNDAMENTALISTS' NOT WANTING PEOPLE TO SHOW IMAGES OF THEIR PROPHET. N-O-T-H-I-N-G. I do hate to yell, but I also hate to see the same falsehoods spread again and again and again on this issue. You and ludwins are not going to be allowed to hide behind an unconnected WMF memo on this. Tarc (talk) 02:23, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
Ugh... let me try a different road than Tarc (it means the same thing though). Anthony, by evaluating the images on the basis I proposed below, any image that remains is automagically in compliance with the new resolution. Please read WP:CENSOR where the new resolution is already included. Then note the last sentences. Religious objections are not accepted as grounds for anything - at all. New resolution or not. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 03:01, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
compromise idea - section on 'Muhammad in art'
Restating the idea here, for discussion purposes.
Under this proposal, there would be a new section on 'Muhammad in art', which would contain a discussion of the controversy over depicting the prophet (along the lines that Anthony has presented above) and material on the different ways Muhammad has been depicted over the centuries. some of the images currently in the article will be moved to this new section as exemplars of art styles (along with other depictions, such as Muhammad appearing as a flame), and the rest would be removed (unless there are other equally clear content reasons to retain them). This would have the following advantages:
- It would contain the controversial images within a section dedicated to discussing the controversy, which satisfies both NPOV and NOTCENSORED
- It would put a stop to most of these talk page disputes - probably to an extent where this subpage could be retired - because we would then have a clear and unimpeachable reason to be using the images.
I think this might be a livable solution for everyone - I'm obviously open to it. comments? --Ludwigs2 18:55, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
- I'm not yet willing to support this, but I will say I'd lean closer if the examination/removal of other (ie: remaining) images was based on my earlier proposal. Or combine the two so each image is examined for historical value and relevance to the existing article, with each that does not meet such qualifications then being examined for relevance to the section that you propose. I think that more fairly addresses each issue without causing the perception (regardless of your intent or lack thereof - which is why I used "perception") that the effort is to hide the images even farther down the page. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 19:01, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
- I consider this a non-starter. We already have Depictions of Muhammad, which is where the issue of the controversy is covered. This article is about Muhammad the person, and should not try to duplicate that material in a kinder, gentler way. All this needs to be added to this article is a brief paragraph on the image controversy, with a pointer to the Depictions... article. Tarc (talk) 20:01, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
- It's a good attempt at a compromise but I don't see the point. There is no point in duplicating Depictions of Muhammad in this already-too-long article. This issue of images is controversial only to a minority of people who are offended by their own choice. Furthermore, we should not be making editorial decisions on the basis of how often someone states on the talk page that they are offended. As far as I know, Wikipedia has never had a requirement to remove controversial content because it happens to generate talk page content. I see no reason to hold this article and its images to different standards than any other article about an historical figure. The fact that some people misapply religious dogma to this particular historical figure isn't relevant to the content of the article. ~Amatulić (talk) 21:48, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
- @Tivanir2: If the images are properly contextualized within a section of this sort then I will consider them to be valid under NPOV, and you'll see me arguing against people who try to remove them. I can't make any guarantee beyond that, but I think you'd probably agree that it would be more pleasant having me argue on your side than against it.
- @Amatulić:Allow me to explain the pragmatics of this in more detail. The problem on this page - the reason for the 15 archives of of complaints, and for the overly-long discussion we are currently having - is that editors here have been taking a hard-line approach on an issue that calls for some delicacy. No one is "offended by choice"; people are sensitive to issues due to a variety of factors (like childhood socialization) that are largely out of their control. It's an emotional reaction, and you will never run out of people who have a problem with these images (it's a precept of a major world religion, for heaven's sake; pretending it is some tiny minority we can dispense with borders on delusion). We will never run out of conflict on this article until either the images are removed or their position is solidified under some rational basis. Just speaking for myself, I see a fairly severe violation of NPOV on this page that I am loathe to give up on until it's fixed. (yes, I recognize that you don't see it, but since I can explain the problem clearly and no one else seems to be able to explain the converse position, c'est la vie...). The compromise costs your side little, satisfies my NPOV concerns, and gives the page a way out of this interminable dispute. there isn't really another way out of it.
- The only credible reason people have given in the above discussion for retaining these images is that they have some art-historical significance, so let's capitalize on that and put them in an art-historical context where we can legitimately use them. If you keep taking the hard-line approach then I will keep raising the NPOV concerns, and if that's the way it's going to go then we might as well sign up for mediation or arbitration now (unless - as Robert keeps hinting - you're counting on winning this debate by getting me banned). If you all refuse to make any compromise in your position then we are stuck.
- So which way do you want to play this? Do you want to adopt a spirit of collaboration and craft some solution that satisfies my concerns and yours, or do you want to continue to insist that my concerns are meaningless, and open a case at the Cabal or ask for formal mediation? I'd prefer the former, personally, but I'm not going to agree with something I believe violates the core principles of the project, so you're going to have to move a little bit my way for this to work. --Ludwigs2 22:52, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
- Ludwigs2: This is the point I've been trying to make at all. Many people see no reason to be delicate if are met. Many people also see various of the images more suited for relevant placement in sections (as is done in other articles). Many people already think a compromise has been made by not putting images in the top 1/3 (or more) of the article. As for getting you banned/topic banned/whatever, I hope you've noticed, if you make a good faith effort, my interaction is quite different. When you propose an RfC (such as in the last couple days) with biased questions that ask or imply "delete for this reason or delete for this reason?" then my interaction is different and I do lean towards requesting some sort of action (no, not necessarily a ban, topic or otherwise).
- As for spirit of collaboration, other options seem to have had a lot more support. If that's the end result, you are apparently not going to be satisfied. But the alternative is you're satisfied and virtually no one else is. <- The crux of this issue. Obviously, if you step away and think about it rationally, one unsatisfied editor is better than virtually every other editor being unsatisfied so you are satisfied. You can't win them all.
- Also on the "winning... by banning" thing. I think I've (and others have) shown an abundance of patience, while you've tried at least two end runs around RfC forming when not getting your way, one of which included trying to extricate Tarc, one of your most vocal "opponents", from this issue. None of us have retaliated in kind, so you may wish to cease such implications, since only you are guilty of such actions.
- Side note, my next counter proposal included linking to "Depictions of" article. I thought that was inferred when I mentioned Anthonyhcole's efforts above, but figured I needed to clarify. Nonetheless, that leaves my counter-proposal pretty much the same as my initial proposal with anything removed as extraneous being put into the "Depictions..." section (the one you are proposing as "Muhammad in art"). Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 00:16, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
- So which way do you want to play this? Do you want to adopt a spirit of collaboration and craft some solution that satisfies my concerns and yours, or do you want to continue to insist that my concerns are meaningless, and open a case at the Cabal or ask for formal mediation? I'd prefer the former, personally, but I'm not going to agree with something I believe violates the core principles of the project, so you're going to have to move a little bit my way for this to work. --Ludwigs2 22:52, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
- How can anyone agree to satisfy your concerns when all your concerns are based on considerations that we must ignore?—Kww(talk) 00:21, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
- Because all of us misunderstand policy. That is the crux of the complaint against us in what again seems to be delving into "Whack-A-Mole-With-Wrong-Policies" game. :-/ ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 00:30, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
- How can anyone agree to satisfy your concerns when all your concerns are based on considerations that we must ignore?—Kww(talk) 00:21, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
- So this is the game plan now? Make a demand so outrageous at the outset (remove the images to appease some conservative religious sensitivities), then after awhile offer a "compromise" (just picture the air-quotes in your mind when reading that) that gets you most of what you want? The insinuation that those who are now unwilling to meet your faux-compromise are now the obstinate/stubborn ones was a nice touch, btw. Really, all this does is move the goalposts from "completely out of the question" to "strongly oppose", IMO. You have threatened before to go on and on...and on and on and on...with your opposition to the images, but the ArbCom filing went down in flames pretty swiftly. You are free to pursue other avenues of dispute resolution if you wish, as I think we are just about done with talk page interactions. Tarc (talk) 00:23, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
I agree with Tarc. If this article is to mention the depiction of Muhammad, one paragraph (or two short ones at the very most) would be due weight for this minor aspect of a very big topic. And I agree with Rob, inclusion or exclusion of each image needs to be determined case by case according to its merits, though I'm not sure that needs to be done via RfC. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 00:38, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)That brings us back to part of my counter-proposal, which is to do so using the efforts you are spearheading for restoring the "Depictions..." mini-section. Kills two stones with one bird. And that's a pretty tough task. You'll note my counter-proposal also removes the "compromise" (to honor religious beliefs/offense) factor that's not supportable by policy. ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 00:47, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
- well, I have to admit, this is just a fascinating experience. But, back to the explanations…
- @Robert. I'm glad you've decided to be more civil, for whatever reasons you chose to do so. it makes communication easier.
- To you substantive points: Honestly I think your approach is a good one. My concern - based on a very large number of samples derived from the above discussion - is that some editors will create exaggerated and unrealistic assessments of the 'historical worth and relevance' of given images. Are there any objective criteria you can think of, so that it doesn't boil down to a stalemate of pure subjectivity? I can think of objective criteria myself (and have toted them out a few times in the above discussion), but I doubt that anyone will be receptive to it coming from me. It doesn't matter to me which way we do it, yours or mine; I just thought the 'art history' section would be more concrete and objective and thus easier to justify. My main concern is that the images of Muhammad that remain in the article have a clear and unimpeachable rationale for being there (so that any accusations that they are there just to spite Muslims is easily resolved and dismissed).
- And please don't 'many people' me. In case you hadn't noticed I'm an idealist, and I rarely (if ever) think that 'what most people do' is the best model for action. 'Many people' are crude, rude, thoughtless, and vindictive, and we certainly don't want our behavior here to mimic theirs.
- @Kww: please read wp:NOTABUREAUCRACY. This isn't about toeing to the rules. rules are useful to the extent that they help us craft good, neutral articles, and ignorable when they get in the way of that. We decide what images we want to put in articles and what images we don't - the rules don't dictate content. there is nothing in policy that says or implies that we have to use controversial images if they are available; at best, policy says that we shouldn't have to remove them if they are important. It's that question of importance that's under discussion.
- @ Tarc:…
- @ Anthony: If you want to go image-by-image, that's fine, but we need to set some concrete criteria for inclusion, otherwise we'll have people saying things like "it's essential this image remain because its blue tone complements the default wikipedia colors" (or the converse ridiculous statements for removal). so what criteria shall we use? --Ludwigs2 02:40, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
- Hi Ludwigs2, nah, I'm just rather blunt (as I warned earlier) - nothing personal there. Sorry if it seems uncivil if it's contrary to your opinion on the matter - that's probably... well... because I can be rather blunt.
- As for wp:weasel and such. Nah, I'm just a realist. This is a community. The "many" win. It's really that simple - and thus, also nothing personal. Which is how your actions, in light of that reality, end up looking tendentious or disruptive. It's simply a matter of "umm, yeah, you know it's going to end this way, so why do you keep going on and on?"
- But perhaps one thing we can agree on is to minimize those WikiPhilosophy discussions to our talk pages? Always welcome to get into a debate about such with me there. Thus, I'm getting back to the situation at hand...
- @ Anthony: If you want to go image-by-image, that's fine, but we need to set some concrete criteria for inclusion, otherwise we'll have people saying things like "it's essential this image remain because its blue tone complements the default wikipedia colors" (or the converse ridiculous statements for removal). so what criteria shall we use? --Ludwigs2 02:40, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
- Regarding my proposal, if you note one of the originals (it's buried someplace above), it came attached with a requirement for a group of uninvolved editors and admins to review all answers and judge the weight each should hold based on policy, guidelines and such. I thought I'd transposed that bit here, but I may not have. I'm hoping that solves the remainder of this dilemma. It will require a little more time and a bit more effort, but then again, I'm sure you would agree that handling this properly deserves that effort? Heck, maybe even attach a request as part of the RfC for a pool of volunteers we can all then !vote on to pick x number to close and evaluate? Open to other ideas on how to solve such as well. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 02:51, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
- Ludwigs2 said "ridiculous statements" (such as) "it's essential this image remain because its blue tone complements the default wikipedia colors" - Really?!?!?! If that is not an acceptable criteria in the RfC, I'll vote against that RfC proposal!!! Well, ok, maybe I can let that one slide if we work out the rest of the issues for an RfC. ;-) (smile everyone, it's only Wikipedia) ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 02:55, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
- Just more of the same tendentious bullying, nothing more. What this reminds me of is the great Virgin Killer album cover fiasco. A group of editors went all think of the children, the Brits harrumphed and blacklisted the project for a few days, and a tiny yet vocal group of editors screamed that the image must be removed because it was causing offense to an equally minor minority in the outside world. What happened? consensus was to retain the image, same as we have found here. Providing uncensored and unfiltered information to the reader outweighs prudery and religious fundamentalism, respectively. Tarc (talk) 03:11, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, but we are at a point where Ludwigs2 is willing to endorse my proposal. So far, I think the only comment against it was the difficulty, to which I proposed the method of closing I recently "reposted" above. And I still think it the only proposal that allows for the potential for some change. I have no problem with any of the images, and will cite reasons for inclusion of each (I've made that no secret), but the proposal doesn't limit anyone else to an "all or nothing" choice. They can choose "all" if they wish, by doing so individually (as I will), "nothing" or anything inbetween. In that respect, I think it accomplishes the same intent as the other proposal suggestions, but with one less bias - the one created for a few who might think "Well, image #4 doesn't really belong (for whatever rationale), but I have to choose 'keep all' since 'keep none' removes the good ones too". At least that's my opinion. And though I think my rationale is sound, as the proposer for the RfC proposal I proposed,;-) I am definitely biased towards it (and willing to admit it). So, maybe we can move on from here. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 03:20, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
- Just more of the same tendentious bullying, nothing more. What this reminds me of is the great Virgin Killer album cover fiasco. A group of editors went all think of the children, the Brits harrumphed and blacklisted the project for a few days, and a tiny yet vocal group of editors screamed that the image must be removed because it was causing offense to an equally minor minority in the outside world. What happened? consensus was to retain the image, same as we have found here. Providing uncensored and unfiltered information to the reader outweighs prudery and religious fundamentalism, respectively. Tarc (talk) 03:11, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
- Robert: In case you hadn't noticed, I'm rather 'blunt' myself (though I prefer the term 'strong-willed'). And I don't have much regard for 'tyranny of the majority' type situations, and almost never bow to those kinds of decisions. I believe we should pay more than lip-service to the project's ideals, and I'm not at all shy about standing up for that, despite the fact it frequently gets me in hot water.
- That aside, your proposal basically sounds like… having an RfC. How else do we "group of uninvolved editors and admins to review all answers and …"? Or are you thinking of somehow creating a special review committee? The idea is sound in principle, but Wikipedia is such a poorly structured system that I don't see any mechanism for doing this. Maybe we could work something out with MedCab, since the volunteers there tend to have more practice at taking a dispassionate view on things?
- and Tarc:...--Ludwigs2 16:20, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
-
- I'm not speaking from a bureaucratic perspective, Ludwigs2. I'm not arguing that we should ignore religious objections because of Rule 47-J or something, I'm arguing from basic principles: religious objections have no merit when considering images for an encyclopedia. They are irrelevant. The images in this article cannot be held to a higher standard because of them, and it's quite apparent that you wish to do so. For the purposes of an encyclopedia, the images are not considered to be controversial in the first place because there is no secular controversy about them.—Kww(talk) 16:22, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
- Kww, please. the phrase "religious objections have no merit when considering images for an encyclopedia" is a rule: either it's a rule written specifically in policy somewhere or it's a rule you've created yourself, but in either case you have presented a rule that (in your mind) must be followed to the letter as a matter of procedure, without thought or disagreement. That is the heart and soul of bureaucratic thinking. I'm telling you that as a matter of ethics objections to content are always worthy of specific consideration, regardless of the source. Sometimes we may decide to ignore objections and sometimes we may decide to heed them; it is a matter of context, in which various factors must be weighed with the greater interests (plural) of the encyclopedia kept in mind. --Ludwigs2 16:46, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
- So your perspective that we always have to consider objections isn't a bureaucratic rule, but mine that secular encyclopedias should never consider objections based on non-secular grounds is? That's an interesting perspective. Compare and contrast, please.—Kww(talk) 16:54, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
- Yes. Saying that we 'always consider objections' leaves us open to make a choice based on the situation. It is not the same as saying 'never consider' (which precludes thought in preference to obedience), nor is it the same as 'always obey' (which is as bad as 'never consider'). I understand the value of black-and-white thinking - the exclusion of thought makes life easier, at least superficially - but this is not a black-and-white situation. --Ludwigs2 17:15, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
- So your perspective that we always have to consider objections isn't a bureaucratic rule, but mine that secular encyclopedias should never consider objections based on non-secular grounds is? That's an interesting perspective. Compare and contrast, please.—Kww(talk) 16:54, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
- Kww, please. the phrase "religious objections have no merit when considering images for an encyclopedia" is a rule: either it's a rule written specifically in policy somewhere or it's a rule you've created yourself, but in either case you have presented a rule that (in your mind) must be followed to the letter as a matter of procedure, without thought or disagreement. That is the heart and soul of bureaucratic thinking. I'm telling you that as a matter of ethics objections to content are always worthy of specific consideration, regardless of the source. Sometimes we may decide to ignore objections and sometimes we may decide to heed them; it is a matter of context, in which various factors must be weighed with the greater interests (plural) of the encyclopedia kept in mind. --Ludwigs2 16:46, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
- I'm not speaking from a bureaucratic perspective, Ludwigs2. I'm not arguing that we should ignore religious objections because of Rule 47-J or something, I'm arguing from basic principles: religious objections have no merit when considering images for an encyclopedia. They are irrelevant. The images in this article cannot be held to a higher standard because of them, and it's quite apparent that you wish to do so. For the purposes of an encyclopedia, the images are not considered to be controversial in the first place because there is no secular controversy about them.—Kww(talk) 16:22, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)Ludwigs2, when you say stuff like that, I suspect that's where a lot of the disagreement comes from. I cited a policy that specifically covered this, and you cited IAR earlier as a reason to ignore it. I cited just a tiny few of the articles that such actions would impact, you only seem to care about it for this article without looking at how it impacts (and cripples) the whole project. Therein lies a lot of the conflict between you and everyone else. And while your mindset may be ideal in (gross paraphrase) "the majority isn't always right, and thus should be ignored at times" you've got to remember that this is not the place to deal with such in order to ignore policy. There are other mechanisms. For this discussion, all we have is policy to direct us. Start up something at Village Pump or elsewhere, and if it gets taken and converted into policy, whether I agree or not with the outcome, I'll FULLY support the changes you want based on the new policy. But not until then. With as many editors as there are on this project, we cant simply decide we want to ignore policies we don't like. It is those policies that help keep some sort of level playing field for all of the diverse and numerous editors here.
- Also, keep in mind, your definition of "ethics" may not be applicable. As noted countless times above, as a whole, the vast majority of complaints about these images come from those who choose to violate their own religion and choose to be offended. Again, as an example, if we are standing in my living room and I tell you the stove is on and hot, and you choose to walk into the kitchen (for no other reason) and touch it, again and again, then complain that you burnt yourself, why should I care? That then leaves the actual editors here (not the "I only stopped here to make my one post about how offensive the images are" editors). And of those editors, the percentage is minimal (single digits) of people who complain. A very very tiny minority - all of which by now should know how to hide these specific images. None of that has anything to do with ethics.
- BTW, removing the images from this page will do nothing good. It will make headlines, and in those news reports, it will also be reported that "but images of Muhammad still remain on the "Depictions of..." article" which will prompt (besides the bad press about us censoring one article) tons of complaints when the "one off" editors go to the "Depictions" article to complain that the images are there. It will also start to generate a higher volume of religious complaints against other articles about other religions or other religious figures. That would leave your next move being trying to remove the images from "Depictions" based on the "one off" complaints, and show Wikipedia further censoring content for religious reason - and thus generate more news and more religious objections from other religious groups... a snowball turned into an avalanche. That is reality. And I can guarantee you, that is not going to happen - which will start (as history has shown) with not censoring this page.
- Perhaps now we can get on with our proposal? And yes, there are mechanisms for external uninvolved editors to review such processes to determine the outcome. It's time we set an example in that respect which will hopefully prompt others to do so as well in such situations, in order to end the normal endless back and forth in such things. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 17:09, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
- Robert: It is a fact of life that when people goof things up it causes problems that sooner or later have to be dealt with. This is as true (if not more so) with matters of ethics - the longer people feel that ethics are being violated, the more wound up they get about it, and the more time and effort it takes to get it all to unwind. I don't know if you're right that removing the images would make headlines; if it does make headlines, it would only do so because there is a great perception of a failure of ethics on this article. If we then get masses of people heading to other articles trying to do the same, then we merely have new arenas in which to consider the objections: For instance, images are not going to be removed from 'depictions of Muhammad' because the topic of that article demands that those images be there - it's easy on that page to defuse religious objections because the images fulfill a clear encyclopedic purpose.
- You undervalue the power of rationalization. When one finds oneself faced with an unpleasant choice, having a clear, obvious reason for it makes all the difference in terms of support. A clear, obvious reason puts a wedge between moderates and fanatics: moderates will be reasonable (thinking "well, I don't like it, but I do see why they are doing it"), and fanatics will quickly lose credibility in their eyes. Without a clear, obvious reason, moderates will tend to be suspicious, fanatics will feel supported by the moderates, and then we are stuck with what's historically happened here - harsh, rigid, literalistic enforcement of rules, making editors here look like fanatics, alienating moderates further, and setting up an atmosphere filled with perceptions of bias and hostility.
- I'm not suggesting that my approach is going to take us in one step from siege warfare to collaborative editing in daisy-filled fields, but I would like to see us shake out of the downward spiral into an upward spiral. I'm not going to wait for things to be addressed on a policy level - on the policy level, I run into the same problems I've run into here (miscommunication, misunderstanding, entrenched attitudes, kneejerk reactions) except multiplied by 50. That will take time (and I am working on it) but in the meantime I have to start with what I can manage in the hopes I can get some kind of momentum in the proper direction. This article is a good place for that. --Ludwigs2 17:57, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
- What it boils down to is that your personal view of what is ethical and what is not is not really applicable to anyone but yourself. You have no right to impose your views on the rest of us, any more than those Muslims who oppose images have a right to impose their views upon the Wikipedia. You can ignore me all you like with cutsey "...", but I will hammer this simple fact home as often as you need it. Tarc (talk) 18:35, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
- I'm not suggesting that my approach is going to take us in one step from siege warfare to collaborative editing in daisy-filled fields, but I would like to see us shake out of the downward spiral into an upward spiral. I'm not going to wait for things to be addressed on a policy level - on the policy level, I run into the same problems I've run into here (miscommunication, misunderstanding, entrenched attitudes, kneejerk reactions) except multiplied by 50. That will take time (and I am working on it) but in the meantime I have to start with what I can manage in the hopes I can get some kind of momentum in the proper direction. This article is a good place for that. --Ludwigs2 17:57, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
(edit conflict)Then I think the next questions would be (to Ludwigs2):
- Every time we start getting someplace on an RfC that won't summarily remove all the images, are you planning on returning to your "ethics"/"morals"/"offensive"/"IAR" arguments to sidetrack it?
- Every time we start getting someplace, are you going to keep trying to use this venue for things that we cannot address here (such as changing policies to support your position) - or are you going to instead move such stuff to the proper venue?
Though you've actually answered these questions in the past week or so, your direct responses here to these would be greatly appreciated. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 18:38, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
- @Robert: I'm not sure what you mean by 'returning to'. Those have been my consistent positions throughout this discussion. You keep suggesting that I'm saying something else (for what reason I don't know), but that's simply means you haven't been listening to what I've been saying.
- I'm happy to agree to any decision process that uses concrete, objective criteria for evaluating the worth of the images and takes into account the ethical position that I've outlined repeatedly. I'm not going to agree to any process that starts from the perspective that some or all of the images must remain even if they have no concrete value, or that Wikipedia offends people without cause. Whether you want to do this collaboratively or via RfC, the first thing we need to do is set out criteria for evaluating the worth of the images. I've already done this a few times (that's how I came up with the 'art history section' compromise); You don't like my criteria, so please propose some of your own.
- If we are going to evaluate these images properly, you need to be prepared for the possibility that all of them will be removed (just as I need to be prepared for the possibility that all of them may remain). that's the way these things work.
- And Tarc: What would you prefer to the ellipses? a 'yaddayaddayadda', maybe? post like that just don't deserve responses. --Ludwigs2 22:57, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
- You haven't said much worth responding to lately either, just the same broken record of "superfluous images that cause offense must be removed", even though they aren't superfluous and the largely invented offended parties are negligible. Most everyone has simply stopped engaging you, you're lucky that Robert has the patience of a saint. Tarc (talk) 23:21, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
- Ludwigs2: you've handily ignored the questions in your lengthy response. Are you willing to abide by the consensus without repeating your same justifications ad-nasuem? Are you willing to stop addressing your dislike of policy on this very inappropriate forum? Policies will NOT be changed here - address your issues with policy elsewhere. Will you once again avoid the questions I know you fully understood? If so, you leave me no choice but to assume your earlier comments over the last few weeks are the answers to the questions. And they are not good answers. :-/ Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 02:03, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- You haven't said much worth responding to lately either, just the same broken record of "superfluous images that cause offense must be removed", even though they aren't superfluous and the largely invented offended parties are negligible. Most everyone has simply stopped engaging you, you're lucky that Robert has the patience of a saint. Tarc (talk) 23:21, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
- Robert: as I keep saying, I am willing to abide by any result that is reached through proper reasoning and discussion. I'm not going to abide by any result that comes from flawed reasoning or biased presumptions. is that satisfactory?
- Tasc:...--Ludwigs2 02:51, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- Ludwigs2: Please correct me if I am wrong. Since you already claim (numerous times) that all of our reasonings are wrong and that every image should be removed, you have just admitted that if you do not like the consensus reached (which you will not, based on that), you refuse to abide by it. Inotherwords, knowing the outcome, you are already refusing to abide by it? Is that the correct understanding? Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 02:58, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- Ok; you're wrong. I don't pretend to think that my viewpoints are absolutely correct, just that they are reasonable and informed. I have told you repeatedly that I believe that your reasoning is incorrect and that the images should probably be removed, but I am open to discussion on the matter - that is nothing more than stating my position at the beginning of a debate. However, you, Tarc, Kww, et al have to date refused to actually engage in discussion: you have collectively come to the conclusion that some 'consensus' was arrived at prior to my arrival, that that 'consensus' is immutable and un-challengable, and that anyone who suggests that your collectively preconceived 'consensus' is less-than-perfect is a troublemaker by definition. In other words, you've basically discarded the real concept of consensus and replaced it with a kind of dogmatic policy-fundamentalism that is more-or-less akin to the reasoning of the extremists you see yourself as opposing.
- Ludwigs2: Please correct me if I am wrong. Since you already claim (numerous times) that all of our reasonings are wrong and that every image should be removed, you have just admitted that if you do not like the consensus reached (which you will not, based on that), you refuse to abide by it. Inotherwords, knowing the outcome, you are already refusing to abide by it? Is that the correct understanding? Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 02:58, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- Tasc:...--Ludwigs2 02:51, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- The only thing left for me to do in a case like this is work patiently to wean you away from dogmatic defensiveness and try to get the conversation back to a place where we can discuss these issues without all the dramatic fist-pounding and declamations of righteous authority. When we can do that, then we will give these images a proper evaluation, and the outcome of that is something that I can't predict (I am extremely confident in my viewpoint, but recognize that you could make a convincing argument that would change the way I understand things). If you are blind to the possibility of a middle road on this - as may be the case, since you are constantly accusing me of taking absolutist positions that I'd never consider valid - then you leave me no choice but to continue trying to open your eyes to it; we're not going to resolve this issue fairly until you do. --Ludwigs2 05:31, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
Not going to happen. Stop wasting our time. Your "middle road" is to adhere to religious beliefs so we don't offend. No consensus is required to ignore religious dictates or those who think we should honor religious dictates, btw. And thus your "compromises" get ignored. ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 05:47, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- well, at least you've confirmed my comments; that's something. However, I am not going away, so I guess I'll just keep working on it. --Ludwigs2 07:55, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- That you won't change my mind? That others have told you the same thing? That numerous of us disagree with your interpretations of policy (or policy Whack A Mole)? Correct, that is what I have confirmed. So, fully knowing that those will not occur, you will continue anyway? Your choice. ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 17:04, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
RfC Proposals Redux 2
Let's try again? Let's keep non-proposal conversation above please? And proposal conversations here? Thanks, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 17:09, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
- We're looking for what, examples of who the RfC should be phrased? Here's one;
*"RfC - Should the Wikipedia acquiesce to the demands of religious fundamentalism and their apologists, removing all images of Muhammad from the main article? Or should it ignore external advocacy and propaganda pushes, to provide information to the world freely and uncensored? Tarc (talk) 18:44, 29 October 2011 (UTC)- C'mon Tarc, you know that's equally unsupportable. And since it's really a policy overturn/change question, this wouldn't be the venue either. Best, Rob ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 18:51, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
- I know, it wasn't serious, just a momentary steam blow-off. Struck. Tarc (talk) 18:57, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
Proposal #1 (Tivanir2)
- Which images should be removed from the wikipedia article based upon not having an accurate and reasonable need to be there? And then we can number images and say the name so people can look at them then do Support for images on one line and Remove for the others so you have two subsections perhaps? Just tossing out an idea. Tivanir2 (talk) 20:56, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
Comments on Proposal #1
Proposal #2 (RobertMfromLI's)
- Create a suitable and unbiased RfC proposal (my quick example wording):
- In an effort to improve the quality of the Muhammad article, and ensure the article is properly complying with Wikipedia's current Policies, Guidelines and Resolutions, we are undergoing an image by image review of all images contained in the article. For each image below, please review the image, the citations, the information about the image and the relevance of the image to either the article as a whole or to the section it is contained in.
- List each image with citations and information (such as the captions that Wiqi55 and others so diligently worked on improving). Format similar to this (example is sans actual images and information - pretend it's there):
- {image 1}
- Found in: {section link}
- Citations/source for this image: {cite/source such as "History of Islam Volume 1, 1987, publisher, etc, etc}
- Additional image information (such as from description or source): {Depiction of Muhammad during (event), by (artist) from (date)... with whatever other additional info we have}
- Q1: Does this depiction hold historic or artistic value as a historic or artistic interpretation of Muhammad?
- Q2: Is a depiction of this nature of the article's subject relevant to either the article or the section it is contained in?
- Q3: Based on such criteria, do you believe the image adds value to the article or to readers of the article?
- (02:30, 30 October 2011 (UTC)) At the close of the RfC, outside, uninvolved editors/admins would be solicited to review each set of responses to determine some sort of consensus.
- Therein lies the gist of my proposal, which will probably need a few tweaks and such. By weighing in on each of those items, the RfC will automatically address policies, guidelines and the new WMF resolution. Thoughts? Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 02:23, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
Comments on Proposal #2
I appreciate the sentiment, but such an image-by-image analysis appears to have been done barely six months ago, a discussion which featured several editors here who are, yet again, protesting them images. Tarc (talk) 20:55, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- I know. :-( But if we are to have an RfC, I figure we should at least do it correctly in as unbiased of a fashion as possible. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 21:11, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
Proposal #3
"Under what conditions can an image depicting Muhammad be used in this article?"
Comments on Proposal #3
Proposal #4
"Does inclusion of the images presently illustrating Muhammad conform to Wikipedia policy?"
Comments on Proposal #4
This is the wrong question. Merely because something conforms to policy does not mean it necessarily should be included. Many if not most of our editorial disagreements (on the whole encyclopedia) have no specific policy/guideline, and it's up to establishing an editorial consensus to determine what should be done. Qwyrxian (talk) 06:09, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
Proposal #5
"Should the article Mohammed contain pictures images of Mohammed?"
Comments on Proposal #5
This is probably the best one, although I think I might add, and say, "Should the article Mohammed contain pictures images of Mohammed, and, if so, how many and which ones?" That may be too much for an RfC, so if we only want to deal with the broad question, then as written this is fine. Qwyrxian (talk) 06:10, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- I think that would bring us to proposal #2. ;-) ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 06:14, 30 October 2011 (UTCI
Support (for proposal #5) I too might support this proposal on the WMF '... principle of least astonishment' and also to help reduce the perennial discussions occurring on this page. However, I have spent a long time informing myself recently about this subject, both here and off-site. I have a concern which I find hard to eloquently express. There appears to be world-wide movements (such as the petition site) which desire the removal of all images of PUBH on and off Wikipedia, not just those images on the Wikipedia Muhammad page. If, as a result of consensus, all the images of PUBH were removed from the Muhammad page, what happens to such images in other Wikipedia places? Specifically, I would withdraw my support above, principally for WP:NOTCENSORED reasons, if I felt that it would lead to the removal of all such images from Wikipedia. All (English Wikipedia) places where images of Muhammad are currently being used are listed below, including the Muhammad page ...
- image1 in Muhammad and Islamic view of angels
- image2 in Black Stone, Depictions of Muhammad, Jami' al-tawarikh, Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy, Kaaba, Muhammad and Muhammad in Mecca
- image3 in Muhammad
- image4 in Muhammad, Muhammad in Medina and Siyer-i Nebi
- image5 in Censorship by religion, Depictions of Muhammad, Early Middle Ages, Freedom of speech versus blasphemy, Islamic calendar, Muhammad, Muhammad in Medina and The Remaining Signs of Past Centuries
- image6 in Grigory Gagarin and Muhammad
( I said I could not express myself eloquently :( sorry) --Senra (Talk) 22:41, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- "Least astonishment" does not have the slightest applicability to this article. A reader with even average common sense who clicks on the article for Muhammad will expect to be presented with images thereof. Tarc (talk) 23:32, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- That is, in fact, not true, for a number of reasons which have been explained above. No sense repeating them. --Ludwigs2 00:51, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- I have to agree, in part, with Ludwigs2 here. Tarc, your contributions to this discussion seem to get more and more insulting over time. As far as I can tell, you're saying that any Sunni coming to this article does not have "average common sense". Still, I think that, probably, "least astonishment" supports inclusion of the images (at least, some of them), but I don't think it is appropriate to say that no one of good sense comes here and is astonished to find the images. In fact, I was a bit surprised myself, in that I assumed that there were no pictures (at least, outside of those drawn in contemporary times by non-Muslims, which clearly wouldn't be appropriate here). Of course, that points to the notion that some images should be included (as others have said), but perhaps not nearly as extensively as we currently feature them (up to the possibility that the images would more appropriately belong only in a sub-article like Depictions of Muhammad. Again, I'm not trying to take a strong stand here one way or the other, but only to say that this is a question worthy of discussion and an RfC. Qwyrxian (talk) 01:28, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- If you feel insulted, then you should work on some skin-thickening exercises. This is EN.wiki. Not Middle.East.wiki. Not Iranian.wiki. A reader reading an article in the English Wikipedia, which like it or not presents topics in a Western-centric point-of-view, should not be astonished to see an image of Muhammad in the Muhammad article. Ludwigs has no leg to stand on on this tangent, and neither do you. Tarc (talk) 01:47, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- I more or less agree with that; I, for one, was fascinated when I finally saw an article on Muhammad that gave me insight into what people's impressions of him were. Incidentally, the fact that Farsi Wikipedia has these images in their Muhammad article without the accompanying talkpage theatrics should perhaps indicate that many Muslims (certainly all the Muslims I know; in my area, we have a few Iranians and a lot of Albanians) are not so closed-minded as they've been portrayed by the images' detractors; if I were a Muslim, I'd find the idea that an encyclopedia needed to "protect our beliefs" rather patronizing. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 14:18, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- Good point - can't get a link to work, but there are 5 images, two veiled, three full-face; and its a featured article. Some are the same as here, where we have currently 6 images, one veiled, one flame & 4 with face visible (including the Russian one). Johnbod (talk) 14:35, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- The Persian wikipedia is not a reliable source. It is also in the interest of Persian nationalists (and the theocratic regime in Tehran) to turn their article into the "Persianified Muhammad". But here on the English Wikipedia we should try to be more balanced. We currently have too much Persian imagery in this article. One gets the impression that the Prophet was revered only in Persia (or Persianate cultures) or that he was a Persian King. Last I checked, even pages of Persian kings do not have this amount of Persian imagery on their articles. And it's not about protecting one's beliefs, but rather having a balanced and accurate presentation of a historical figure and his teachings (which this article's placement/selection of images terribly fails at). Wiqi(55) 15:32, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- Oh yes, having a Russian image of Muhammad totally drives home the idea of Persian nationalism; nice try at now framing it as a nationalist idea, but perhaps you should apply Ockham's razor here. It could be a giant Persian conspiracy to Persianize Muhammad... but it might also just be the fact that the images are quite informative, for reasons I've elucidated above. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 16:01, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- No one said anything about a Russian image (or a conspiracy for that matter). The fact that we have too much Persian imagery in this article has been raised before by other editors. I'm just saying that comparison to the Persian Wikipedia should be more reserved. We shouldn't copy other Wikipedias. Their take on the subject sometimes reflect national interests and cultural or religious beliefs. Wiqi(55) 16:13, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- Well we've just discovered (below) we've had an image from Kashmir, and the 19th century, all along without realizing it! Johnbod (talk) 16:56, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- Erm. Dear me. I really did not mean to cause so much controversy. Perhaps we should all reflect on historical figures such as the King who was purported to have been wise. One wonders how such a person would have dealt with mediating this thread! --Senra (Talk) 16:58, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- Well we've just discovered (below) we've had an image from Kashmir, and the 19th century, all along without realizing it! Johnbod (talk) 16:56, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- No one said anything about a Russian image (or a conspiracy for that matter). The fact that we have too much Persian imagery in this article has been raised before by other editors. I'm just saying that comparison to the Persian Wikipedia should be more reserved. We shouldn't copy other Wikipedias. Their take on the subject sometimes reflect national interests and cultural or religious beliefs. Wiqi(55) 16:13, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- Good point - can't get a link to work, but there are 5 images, two veiled, three full-face; and its a featured article. Some are the same as here, where we have currently 6 images, one veiled, one flame & 4 with face visible (including the Russian one). Johnbod (talk) 14:35, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- I more or less agree with that; I, for one, was fascinated when I finally saw an article on Muhammad that gave me insight into what people's impressions of him were. Incidentally, the fact that Farsi Wikipedia has these images in their Muhammad article without the accompanying talkpage theatrics should perhaps indicate that many Muslims (certainly all the Muslims I know; in my area, we have a few Iranians and a lot of Albanians) are not so closed-minded as they've been portrayed by the images' detractors; if I were a Muslim, I'd find the idea that an encyclopedia needed to "protect our beliefs" rather patronizing. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 14:18, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- If you feel insulted, then you should work on some skin-thickening exercises. This is EN.wiki. Not Middle.East.wiki. Not Iranian.wiki. A reader reading an article in the English Wikipedia, which like it or not presents topics in a Western-centric point-of-view, should not be astonished to see an image of Muhammad in the Muhammad article. Ludwigs has no leg to stand on on this tangent, and neither do you. Tarc (talk) 01:47, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- I have to agree, in part, with Ludwigs2 here. Tarc, your contributions to this discussion seem to get more and more insulting over time. As far as I can tell, you're saying that any Sunni coming to this article does not have "average common sense". Still, I think that, probably, "least astonishment" supports inclusion of the images (at least, some of them), but I don't think it is appropriate to say that no one of good sense comes here and is astonished to find the images. In fact, I was a bit surprised myself, in that I assumed that there were no pictures (at least, outside of those drawn in contemporary times by non-Muslims, which clearly wouldn't be appropriate here). Of course, that points to the notion that some images should be included (as others have said), but perhaps not nearly as extensively as we currently feature them (up to the possibility that the images would more appropriately belong only in a sub-article like Depictions of Muhammad. Again, I'm not trying to take a strong stand here one way or the other, but only to say that this is a question worthy of discussion and an RfC. Qwyrxian (talk) 01:28, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- That is, in fact, not true, for a number of reasons which have been explained above. No sense repeating them. --Ludwigs2 00:51, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- Johnbod. it may have only been found or copied in Kashmir, but possibly produced somewhere else. In any case, the illustrated book Hamlat i-Haydari has been studied and categorized as a tradition of the Qajar dynasty, which is Persian. Wiqi(55) 17:08, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- Copied, very possibly, but if they didn't think it was produced in Kashmir they wouldn't have catalogued it that way. With such a specific date it presumably has an inscription recording the circumstances of its making. In fact we currently have 2 Persian, 2 Turkish, 1 Kashmiri & 1 Russian image, which seems reasonable balance. Johnbod (talk) 17:11, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- I meant originally produced. It is thought to be Qajar (Persian), not Indian. Also, the Turkish miniature tradition is a continuation of the Persian one, with Persian works often served as model to Ottoman painters. Considering these facts, a better count would be 5 Persianate and 1 Russian. That doesn't seem "balanced". Wiqi(55) 18:27, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- As usual, any specious wiggling to avoid the facts. One might as well call all Western art Greek. If it is made in Kashmir it is "originally" Kashmiri. Johnbod (talk) 21:01, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- Perhaps Wiqi55 is saying we need to find more images to provide even greater balance? I'm sure that's achievable - though I am not sure if more images is suitable. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 21:13, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- Johnbod, it has been studied as part of the Qajar tradition, which is Persian. The Hamla i-Haydari is also a book of Persian poetry, composed by a poet in the Qajar court. It can't be more Persian than that. Wiqi(55) 21:28, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- Oh yes it could - it could actually be made in Persia, by Persians. You know perfectly well that Persianate culture covers almost the whole Islamic world to varying degrees, but that doesn't mean there is not a difference between what is actually Persian and what is not. Or would you classify the whole of Mughal painting, and other arts, as Persian? Johnbod (talk) 22:29, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- Kashmir was ruled by Parisian dynasties in the 16th century (and perhaps later too). There were also Persian courts in Kashmir. Thus the fact that it was made by Persians cannot be ruled out. Also it was a Parisian poetry book. Regardless of the patron's ethnicity, the fact that they were interested in a Persian poetry book is enough to determine their cultural affiliation. Concerning your other point, we are dealing with a single artistic tradition. The same artists and their direct disciples often moved from one dynasty to another. For instance, the Persian miniatures boom in the Ottoman empire was largely caused by many masters and their disciples moving from various Persian cities (most notably Tabriz) to Istanbul. It is rather reasonable to assume that the images we have here are the result of a continuation of a single artistic tradition at different phases. This tradition happens to be distinctively Persian. Wiqi(55) 21:12, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- Honest questions: (not familiar with art topics really) Does the fact that they were ruled by them invalidate their own cultural contributions? Inotherwords, does the art of the time reflect their own culture, or the culture of the Persians they were taken over by? If their own culture, how much weight should we give to who ruled as opposed to the cultural aspects of the art? Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 22:00, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- The style will certainly reflect the artist and his school. But the content (including the interpretation of certain events, or which events to highlight and illustrate) will be left to the patron. Now the patron could either be a Sultan (i.e., someone affiliated with the court) or a rich merchant. Wiqi(55) 22:13, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- Ok, so we need to become more informed/knowledgeable on these images then? And we need to know if the artist/school moved on to Persian artistic influences or kept their own cultural influences? I think that's the gist of what I am getting out of this... and from there we can make an informed decision on this? This may be a case for better variety or better citing/information or removing ones with the same artistic influences? Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 22:20, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- That would be a help. Wiki55 has a moderate amount of knowledge, but unfortunately he uses this advancing distorted arguments to marginalize the actually very widespread traditions involving Islamic depictions of Muhammad into a "Persian" box, which he then feels able to dismiss. Applying the same logic to Europe, all post-Renaissance art would be described as "Italian", as it is certainly influenced by the Italian Renaissance, and forms part of the same tradition. And all Western art from the last 2,000 years would be described as Greek for the same reason. Like other countries, the English court in the Renaissance imported several Italian and Flemish artists of the Tudor court who influenced English art; that does not mean that all art made in England for centuries afterwards was "Italian" or Flemish". That the Mughals and Ottomans imported small numbers of Persian artists (among others from elsewhere) for a brief period equally does not mean that these empires did not develop their own traditions. Johnbod (talk) 22:44, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- Ok, so we need to become more informed/knowledgeable on these images then? And we need to know if the artist/school moved on to Persian artistic influences or kept their own cultural influences? I think that's the gist of what I am getting out of this... and from there we can make an informed decision on this? This may be a case for better variety or better citing/information or removing ones with the same artistic influences? Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 22:20, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- Kashmir was ruled by Parisian dynasties in the 16th century (and perhaps later too). There were also Persian courts in Kashmir. Thus the fact that it was made by Persians cannot be ruled out. Also it was a Parisian poetry book. Regardless of the patron's ethnicity, the fact that they were interested in a Persian poetry book is enough to determine their cultural affiliation. Concerning your other point, we are dealing with a single artistic tradition. The same artists and their direct disciples often moved from one dynasty to another. For instance, the Persian miniatures boom in the Ottoman empire was largely caused by many masters and their disciples moving from various Persian cities (most notably Tabriz) to Istanbul. It is rather reasonable to assume that the images we have here are the result of a continuation of a single artistic tradition at different phases. This tradition happens to be distinctively Persian. Wiqi(55) 21:12, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- Oh yes it could - it could actually be made in Persia, by Persians. You know perfectly well that Persianate culture covers almost the whole Islamic world to varying degrees, but that doesn't mean there is not a difference between what is actually Persian and what is not. Or would you classify the whole of Mughal painting, and other arts, as Persian? Johnbod (talk) 22:29, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- Johnbod, it has been studied as part of the Qajar tradition, which is Persian. The Hamla i-Haydari is also a book of Persian poetry, composed by a poet in the Qajar court. It can't be more Persian than that. Wiqi(55) 21:28, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- I meant originally produced. It is thought to be Qajar (Persian), not Indian. Also, the Turkish miniature tradition is a continuation of the Persian one, with Persian works often served as model to Ottoman painters. Considering these facts, a better count would be 5 Persianate and 1 Russian. That doesn't seem "balanced". Wiqi(55) 18:27, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- Copied, very possibly, but if they didn't think it was produced in Kashmir they wouldn't have catalogued it that way. With such a specific date it presumably has an inscription recording the circumstances of its making. In fact we currently have 2 Persian, 2 Turkish, 1 Kashmiri & 1 Russian image, which seems reasonable balance. Johnbod (talk) 17:11, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- Johnbod. it may have only been found or copied in Kashmir, but possibly produced somewhere else. In any case, the illustrated book Hamlat i-Haydari has been studied and categorized as a tradition of the Qajar dynasty, which is Persian. Wiqi(55) 17:08, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
(edit conflict)Wiqi55, I agree with your "shouldn't copy other Wikipedias" sentence. But alas, your last statement is the crux of this entire argument. If we do not reflect such interests for en.wiki, then the entire RfC and ongoing discussions is moot - so, what's the issue if they have some bias in such a fashion? It doesn't seem to be related.ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 17:19, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
Is there even legitimate, outside opposition to images here?
I have to ask, just what sort of "opposition" actually exists to Wikipedia's Muhammad article? What reliable sources out there have actually devoted coverage to what goes on in this article? All I have seen in news searches was a bit of press over the online petition a few years ago, and nothing more. There is no sustained, substantial, or ongoing coverage as we saw with the Jyllands-Posten affair.
All we seem to have now are random IPs and single-purpose accounts who either make demands for image removal, or edit war and try to do it themselves. What I'm looking for is the actual "thing", the concrete and sustained "we don't like this" that can be pointed to. As it is now, if all this is is just a handful of sympathetic Wiki editors arguing on behalf of...let's be honest here, vandals...then the case for image removal is far, far weaker than I first realized. Tarc (talk) 18:55, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
- I'm personally deeply offended by what you just said. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 01:47, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- You shouldn't be, especially as I do not think you (nor I, who's also been trying to work on an unbiased proposal) are even mentioned at all, generally or directly, in what Tarc said. As for the rest of what he said, he is generally (though, yes, not as a 100% whole) correct as the talk history spread through the archives prove. If it's the "vandals" wording, while strong, it does sadly apply - edits of that sort are considered vandalism, as there's no "religious exceptions" clause in that set of policies. :-/
- Sadly, I think the real issue (and hence your offense) is that Tarc makes no mention of those like you and I, who's efforts are to properly weigh this situation in light of policies and guidelines. I think that was solely an "omission of obviousness" (ie: we didnt need him to point us and others like us out for us to know we exist). Best, Rob ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 01:58, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- I'm over it :) --Anthonyhcole (talk) 02:25, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- Tarc. These images are controversial content. They add nothing of educational value relevant to this article. This article doesn't even mention the development of Islamic art, or even the historical opposition to icons. The images contain nothing informative about the topic at hand, just the imaginings of painters centuries later. Utterly valueless. Therefore, they are the very kind of content the foundation addresses in its resolution. Images that have no real educational value and are controversial don't belong in Wikipedia. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 02:35, 30 October 2011 (UTC),
- Except that they aren't controversial in any sense that Wikipedia recognizes. The images are of equivalent quality to the images in most articles, and I will continue to argue that their very existence brings them past the relatively low standard of WP:IUP, given that so many of our readers are under the false impression that Islam bans such things. On a practical level, removing one or two won't do anything to address the objections, and removing them all would be a clear sign that considerations other than individual merit were being taken into account.—Kww(talk) 02:40, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- Just one addition to what Kww so elegantly said. One does not need to discuss Islamic art to have a picture of a person related to Islam. Such a requirement would invalidate almost every image on Wikipedia. We'd have to discuss European art to have depictions of Jesus. We'd have to discuss scientific art to discuss images used in science articles, and on and on. The correlation is that the images are depictions of Muhammad, and IIRC, not all of them are even Islamic art. The appropriate correlation has already been made. If the article was about Islamic art, then the correlation would need to be "are these representative of Islamic art?" - but that is not the case. Best, Rob ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 02:44, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- Except that they aren't controversial in any sense that Wikipedia recognizes. The images are of equivalent quality to the images in most articles, and I will continue to argue that their very existence brings them past the relatively low standard of WP:IUP, given that so many of our readers are under the false impression that Islam bans such things. On a practical level, removing one or two won't do anything to address the objections, and removing them all would be a clear sign that considerations other than individual merit were being taken into account.—Kww(talk) 02:40, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- Robert: you ask why I repeat myself, and your post above is a perfect example of why I have to. so again, for about the 30th time: THESE ARE NOT IMAGES OF MOHAMMAD. They are artistic representation at best, and they are not even the most common artistic representation of the prophet - the most commonly used representation (if I remember correctly) would be to draw the Prophet as a symbolic flame. So why don't we replace all of these old images with the more common symbolic images, rather than promoting a defunct style that was never more than the practice of a minority?
- If you are going to constantly forget points like this than you constantly force us back to square 1 and constantly force me to remind you of them. blame yourself if you don't like hearing it. --Ludwigs2 04:49, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- Ludwigs2: Go to the Jesus article and make the same argument - or stop dealing in bad faith. It is images of Muhammad you object to. Period. Your reasoning is simply whatever reasons you think you can shoehorn your "oooh, they offend" true reasoning into, otherwise, you'd be spending even more time over there (as opposed to none). Of these images, it is at least possible that some may actually look like Muhammad did - unlike the images of Jesus, which none are representative of how he could possibly have looked. Your religious objections are of no matter to me, regardless of how you try to hide them. Historic value, artistic value and relevance to the article are all I care about. ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 05:20, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- I doubt if you do remember correctly. It would be a bold person who would generalize which is the "most common" type of representation between visible face, flame with visible face, just flame, visible face later veiled over, created with a face veil, only seen from behind etc, but I doubt it would be the one you say. More later works survive, & these tend to use veils, so I'd plump for that. Johnbod (talk) 04:57, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- @Robert: you make me repeat myself again. As I have said numerous times already: NO ONE ON THE JESUS ARTICLE HAS A PROBLEM WITH IMAGES OF JESUS. fake or not, there is no major cultural group that objects to them; if there were, we'd have an issue to resolve there, as well. I acknowledge that you don't care about that; however, I cannot respect you for that lack of concern for the desires of others. It is not a credible ethical stance to hold.
- @Johnbod: I may not remember correctly, but I think it's fairly clear that full-face images of Muhammad are a relatively minor style (limited to the upper classes of Persia and the Ottoman empire for a brief period hundreds of years ago). You'll find almost no such images in modern work (except in work intended to be rebellious or anti-Muslim), nor in the bulk of historical images. It is fairly safe to say that if we took a typical depiction of Muhammad from across history it would not be a full-faced image. and yet, we have several such on this article. you see the WEIGHT problem…? --Ludwigs2 05:47, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- Excluding "minor" and "brief", which are silly, and bearing in mind that we have no real idea how widespread such images were - though there are records of them on public buildings, the situation is exactly similar to the bulk of the images we use in illustrating Christian subjects, which come from styles limited to a few parts of Europe hundreds of years ago and upper class patrons, and were and often still are violently objected to as idolatrous by vast numbers of Christians. Johnbod (talk) 14:44, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- BINGO!!! You admit it again. Your problem is not related to anything you said above. It is solely because you believe we should adhere to Islamic religious beliefs so we do not offend. You use the "fake" aspect not because you believe it, but because of that religion/offensive reasoning of yours (otherwise you would apply it in an unbiased fashion elsewhere). And thus, everything you say can be discounted from this point forward - because all other reasons are false. As you admit every time you're pushed hard enough to admit your real motives and reasonings. Oh, it's policy, btw, as pointed out to you multiple times. And no, don't cite IAR again. And with that, my patience is up. You already know how a trip to AN/I will turn out if you disrupt the newest RfC proposal attempt. ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 05:54, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- It's too bad that you feel you have to resort to this kind of frantic bluster. and as usual, you're making me repeat myself yet again - as I have said before, NO ONE IS ASKING YOU TO ADHERE TO ISLAMIC BELIEFS. all I've suggested is that we respect their preferences where we can do so without harm to the encyclopedia. it's a common-sense notion that should not in any way be problematic, and your extreme resistance to it is puzzling at best. --Ludwigs2 08:12, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks Ludwigs2, you've just said it again. You have repeatedly defined "respect their preferences" (as I quote from directly above) as (paraphrased) "delete all the images so as not to offend their religious beliefs". There you have it. Yet again. So, keep saying "I'm not saying this" - "yes, I am saying this". Your intent has become rather transparent. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 18:42, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- It's too bad that you feel you have to resort to this kind of frantic bluster. and as usual, you're making me repeat myself yet again - as I have said before, NO ONE IS ASKING YOU TO ADHERE TO ISLAMIC BELIEFS. all I've suggested is that we respect their preferences where we can do so without harm to the encyclopedia. it's a common-sense notion that should not in any way be problematic, and your extreme resistance to it is puzzling at best. --Ludwigs2 08:12, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- @Johnbod: I may not remember correctly, but I think it's fairly clear that full-face images of Muhammad are a relatively minor style (limited to the upper classes of Persia and the Ottoman empire for a brief period hundreds of years ago). You'll find almost no such images in modern work (except in work intended to be rebellious or anti-Muslim), nor in the bulk of historical images. It is fairly safe to say that if we took a typical depiction of Muhammad from across history it would not be a full-faced image. and yet, we have several such on this article. you see the WEIGHT problem…? --Ludwigs2 05:47, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- Anthony if you're offended, then you didn't actually comprehend what I said. Let's try again by looking at several recent wiki-controversies.
First up is the Virgin Killer album cover debate, began by a WND (worldnetdaily) article decrying what they labeled "child pornography". This led to the Internet Watch Foundation blacklisting the article, causing many UK ISPs to either block access to the specific article, or in some cases to the Wikipedia as a whole. This was a major event which garnered enough press coverage to qualify for a standalone article.
Next , Barack Obama and birtherism. Again, WND stirs the pot that there is no mention of the president's questionable (in their opinion) place of birth. Debate rages, there is some outside press coverage of the mess, we had an ArbCom case that led to many topic and interaction bans, temporary blocks and even eventually a few sitebans.
Another one was Wikipedia co-founder Larry Sanger's letter to the FBI regardiong kiddieporn and loli hosted by the Commons. Lots of press, lots of identifiable controversy and opposition, once again, a standalone article.
I think I have drawn a fairly obvious road-map of what my concern is, but for the sake of explicitness I will make it plain; where is the controversy about images in this Muhammad article? Who is raising the massive fuss that a tiny yet vocal handful of editors sees fit to declare their intent to edit-war (I'm looking at ludwigs specifically on that angle) until they get the images removed?
Point out to me what the driving need is, to what the outside pressure is to remove these images. If all you can point to is one 2-year-old anonymous petition, from a website that does not verify individual petitioner identities, so for all we know the 100,000 signatories could have been 5 guys and some very tired keyboard fingers....or if all you can point to is the aforementioned tiny yet vocal ludwigs-led agitating minority, then I must say this whole image-removal drive is dead on arrival. You cannot take the generalization of "some Muslims consider images of their prophet to be blasphemy" and come here to this article and advocate on their behalf. Have a read of WP:ADVOCACY sometime.
If there were some actual, legitimate, outside interest that was saying "we don't like these images, remove them now", similar to the Internet Watch Foundation's very public and very considerable blacklisting move, then at the very least we'd have to stop, listen, and prepare an actual defense. The end result would still more than likely be the same (i.e. "no"), but at least we can stop and say that we had a legitimate complaint to deal with.
This ain't that. Tarc (talk) 02:46, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- Kww and Tarc, you've both addressed the meaning of "controversial" in this context. That seems to be a key point of difference. I'm taking my meaning from the resolution:
I was just assuming that, since this is religious content, offensive to some viewers, it is the very kind of content the resolution addresses. If you can convince me that the foundation meant the material also has to be the subject of ongoing media attention to fit the term "controversial", you'll win me over. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 07:42, 30 October 2011 (UTC)Some kinds of content, particularly that of a sexual, violent or religious nature, may be offensive to some viewers; and some viewers may feel such content is disrespectful or inappropriate for themselves, their families or their students, while others may find it acceptable. "Controversial content" includes all of these categories.
- (edit conflict)Anthonyhcole: Two questions:
- You do not see any value in learning about how people of Islam as well as those not of the Islamic faith perceived one of their most important figures? I see a lot of value in that. That doesn't even cover artistic value or other criteria that apply.
- You are not making this argument here - why is that? By your rationale, you should be. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 02:50, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- No image is completely without meaning, but these convey nothing WP:DUE for this article, certainly nothing that would justify the amount of article space devoted to them. I'm 100% behind one or two images of Muhammad illustrating a section Muhammad#Images of Muhammad
- I think Jesus is the perfect comparison case. There is no categorical difference between the two articles. There is a big one with regard to the images: in the case of Muhammad, I contend they are controversial, and so (per the Foundation resolution) we need to pay particular attention to whether there is any real educational value in them. The images at Jesus are not controversial so we don't need to be so particular as to whether they they have a realistic educational use. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 07:42, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)Anthonyhcole: Two questions:
On #2, religious beliefs and prohibitions are irrelevant. There is NO other controversy. So, that discounts #2. Read WP:CENSOR yourself. Really. PLEASE do that. The resolution is ALREADY part of it - AND the prohibition on being limited by religious beliefs. And I suspect you are basing your evaluation of the value of the images on this as well. OTOH, you should be giving it no weight in that evaluation. And, before anyone suggests it, this is not the place to delve into what becomes discussing policy changes. Wont happen in this venue.
So, I have one final question to a few of you... now, with the tiny handful of editors who dont want the images here all admitting it's for religious reasons (defending others, whatever - still religious in basis, and sorry, there is no other controversy), then why is it any such editor is still here? If you don't like the policy, dont blame us. Go to Village Pump and suggest it be changed. Anything else is a waste of time, because we cannot change it here. That's not meant to be mean: I honestly do not understand why one would waste time here knowing that they can never get what they want - which is effectively a policy change. Now, at the correct venue, it's at least possible. Really. Isn't harping on something we cant change here disruptive? ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 07:55, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- heavens to betsy! Let me recap what you've said here as it appears to me: You apparently believe that policy dictates that all religious beliefs are irrelevant, and that because of that we can feel free to actively offend any religion we like through controversial images, for no better reason than that we want to. Further, anyone who disagrees with your understanding of things should go away and change policy elsewhere, because no other interpretation of policy than yours is tolerable on this page.
- In short, you've twisted wp:NOTCENSORED into an advocacy tool and totally discarded wp:NPOV, wp:Consensus, wp:TPG, wp:CIV, wp:OWN, and (arguably) a foundation principle, just to defend images that aren't really worth all that much in the first place. Am I misinterpreting your intent here? because all of that seems clearly visible in your last post. --Ludwigs2 08:29, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- I think Rob and Tarc (and others) may be right about this being the wrong venue. Not sure. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 10:15, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- Anthony, I think the resolution applies to images that were created with the intent of attacking a religious belief ("Piss Christ", to drag out a tired example, but the "Let's Draw Mohammed Day" pictures would probably apply as well). It can't reasonably be interpreted as applying to all religious objections, or there goes all the pictures of women, people dancing, and those enjoying alcoholic beverages.—Kww(talk) 12:13, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- @Anthony: I've danced around this problem on a dozen different pages, and I can tell you from the experience that the 'wrong venue' issue is a red herring. If I took this over to a policy page, someone there would tell me that I needed to work it out in article talk, and maybe accuse me forum shopping. The problem is that Wikipedia doesn't have a 'system' per se: there's no process for solving problems in the abstract, and there are lots of people who want to send you packing elsewhere because you are challenging their authority over an article. The only way to get anything done on project is to start on a given page and grind your way up to policy the slow, laborious route. It's unfortunate, and a huge time-waster, but that's the way it is.
- Anthony, I think the resolution applies to images that were created with the intent of attacking a religious belief ("Piss Christ", to drag out a tired example, but the "Let's Draw Mohammed Day" pictures would probably apply as well). It can't reasonably be interpreted as applying to all religious objections, or there goes all the pictures of women, people dancing, and those enjoying alcoholic beverages.—Kww(talk) 12:13, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- I think Rob and Tarc (and others) may be right about this being the wrong venue. Not sure. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 10:15, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- @Kww: again, that's hyperbolic absolutism. You're asserting that we cannot do what is ethically correct because any sort of rational discrimination on our part will open a door to ravening hordes of zealots who will destroy everything. it's a ridiculous straw man argument, and an incredibly bad faith assertion about other editors. There is no place on wikipedia that you are likely to find pictures of dancing or women where religious objections would be at all credible; religious objections are only credible here because this is an article about a core figure in the Muslim faith. I'm perfectly happy keeping radical Muslims from removing dancing images from our Footloose article (which is an article their own faith would suggest they not read). I'm sorry, but that is poor reasoning on your part. --Ludwigs2 13:40, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- It's not hyperbolic absolutism. Who am I to tell one person that his religion isn't important enough to respect, but another person's is? An objection is an objection, and it's the validity of the objection that I evaluate, not the popularity. All religious objections are equally irrelevant, regardless of the popularity. Your assertion that accepting religious objections is what is "ethically correct" is quite annoying, by the way, as it implicitly paints me as being unethical. There's nothing about my perspective that is unethical.—Kww(talk) 13:46, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- There is nothing wrong about "implicitly paint[ing] you as unethical". In fact, I hereby say explicitly that unless your brain is functioning in a seriously unusual way (such as autism, to give a concrete example) or you come from a weird culture with seriously twisted ethics, the fact that your perspective is thoroughly unethical simply cannot be argued away. Hans Adler 14:11, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- So tell me, Hans, where do you draw the line? How do you decide that one person's religion is sufficiently important, but another's is not? How is refusing to do so unethical?—Kww(talk) 14:33, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- I don't need to draw a line anywhere. Any reasonable line will run somewhere between (1) illustrations that do not support anything that is said in the text, used in an article on one of the key topics of one of the major world religions even though that religion rejects such illustrations and they are totally atypical for it, and (2) completely made-up hypothetical objections against useful illustrations on non-religious articles, which could theoretically be made by members of a religion made up on the spot for the sake of the continuum fallacy. We can consider the drawing of a precise line if and when an actual borderline case comes up, the same as we do for all our other policies and guidelines as well.
- Continuuous insistence on fallacies is often an indication of at least borderline bad faith. Ludwigs2's attempt to bring this situation before Arbcom has failed because there were no sufficient behavioural issues yet. But I have not doubt that if this bad faith behaviour continues we will all meet there in the end. Hans Adler 15:48, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- I haven't brought up a position based on any imaginary faiths, Hans. I note that you seem to classify some religions as "major" and, by implication, others as "minor". Can you provide me with a list of those religions I'm free to ignore?—Kww(talk) 15:57, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- As you are clearly not engaging with what I wrote on the intellectual level that is required for resolving a dispute responsibly and intelligently, and are instead again relying on the continuum fallacy, there is nothing much I can do at this point other than repeating myself so that you can ignore me yet again. Or drawing attention to the behavioural problem, as I am doing with this post. Hans Adler 19:02, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- The problem is that you aren't engaging my argument that this isn't an issue for continuum-based analysis. In the absence of an attack, it genuinely is very close to black and white. You can't address an issue related to Islam any differently than you treat issues related to any other religious group, large or small. What makes a religious group too small to be accorded the same respect? What possible criteria could you apply that would allow you to consider one group's objections but not another? I have drawn a precise line: if the objection is based on religion, it isn't worthy of consideration in the context of a secular encyclopedia. There are plenty of contexts where it does matter, but this simply isn't one of them. My saying that isn't a behavioural problem to any greater or lesser extent than your profound disagreement with it is.—Kww(talk) 19:49, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- Kww: in point of fact, we are using the same rubric for every article here; it is simply that there are not many other articles that have this particular problem. Any place where there is a notable groups with a credible objection to controversial content, we should not dismiss it as irrelevant. You're creating an imaginary problem in order to support your position, and that's no good. --Ludwigs2 20:47, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- Ludwigs2, I think you mis-typed something above. I believe you meant to say "I (Ludwigs2) am creating an imaginary problem in order to support my position, and that's no good." - but don't worry, I'm sure we all understood what you meant. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 20:50, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- They are called "hypotheticals", Ludwigs2. They are common in discussions when people get together and discuss things in the hopes of determining the correct course of action. They are a useful tool for illustrating the consequences of certain forms of behaviour, or determining what considerations are actually important when attempting to reach a decision. Have you ever discussed things with others in the hopes of determining the correct course of action? It works well, but it relies on actually considering the other people's points of view and examining the logic and merit contained therein. If you would like to practice, I'd be happy to help.—Kww(talk) 22:18, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- Kww, hypotheticals should make some kind of effort to be realistic. this is the second time in this thread that you've thrown out some improbable hypothetical: first, where you mentioned some 'grievous harm' that would come to the encyclopedia, but refused to say what that harm was when I asked, and here, where you 'hypothetically' assume that I am using a double standard despite that I have explained to you that I am not. Do you consider this a good faith approach to a discussion?
- Kww: in point of fact, we are using the same rubric for every article here; it is simply that there are not many other articles that have this particular problem. Any place where there is a notable groups with a credible objection to controversial content, we should not dismiss it as irrelevant. You're creating an imaginary problem in order to support your position, and that's no good. --Ludwigs2 20:47, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- The problem is that you aren't engaging my argument that this isn't an issue for continuum-based analysis. In the absence of an attack, it genuinely is very close to black and white. You can't address an issue related to Islam any differently than you treat issues related to any other religious group, large or small. What makes a religious group too small to be accorded the same respect? What possible criteria could you apply that would allow you to consider one group's objections but not another? I have drawn a precise line: if the objection is based on religion, it isn't worthy of consideration in the context of a secular encyclopedia. There are plenty of contexts where it does matter, but this simply isn't one of them. My saying that isn't a behavioural problem to any greater or lesser extent than your profound disagreement with it is.—Kww(talk) 19:49, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- As you are clearly not engaging with what I wrote on the intellectual level that is required for resolving a dispute responsibly and intelligently, and are instead again relying on the continuum fallacy, there is nothing much I can do at this point other than repeating myself so that you can ignore me yet again. Or drawing attention to the behavioural problem, as I am doing with this post. Hans Adler 19:02, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- I haven't brought up a position based on any imaginary faiths, Hans. I note that you seem to classify some religions as "major" and, by implication, others as "minor". Can you provide me with a list of those religions I'm free to ignore?—Kww(talk) 15:57, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- So tell me, Hans, where do you draw the line? How do you decide that one person's religion is sufficiently important, but another's is not? How is refusing to do so unethical?—Kww(talk) 14:33, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- There is nothing wrong about "implicitly paint[ing] you as unethical". In fact, I hereby say explicitly that unless your brain is functioning in a seriously unusual way (such as autism, to give a concrete example) or you come from a weird culture with seriously twisted ethics, the fact that your perspective is thoroughly unethical simply cannot be argued away. Hans Adler 14:11, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- It's not hyperbolic absolutism. Who am I to tell one person that his religion isn't important enough to respect, but another person's is? An objection is an objection, and it's the validity of the objection that I evaluate, not the popularity. All religious objections are equally irrelevant, regardless of the popularity. Your assertion that accepting religious objections is what is "ethically correct" is quite annoying, by the way, as it implicitly paints me as being unethical. There's nothing about my perspective that is unethical.—Kww(talk) 13:46, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- @Kww: again, that's hyperbolic absolutism. You're asserting that we cannot do what is ethically correct because any sort of rational discrimination on our part will open a door to ravening hordes of zealots who will destroy everything. it's a ridiculous straw man argument, and an incredibly bad faith assertion about other editors. There is no place on wikipedia that you are likely to find pictures of dancing or women where religious objections would be at all credible; religious objections are only credible here because this is an article about a core figure in the Muslim faith. I'm perfectly happy keeping radical Muslims from removing dancing images from our Footloose article (which is an article their own faith would suggest they not read). I'm sorry, but that is poor reasoning on your part. --Ludwigs2 13:40, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- and Robert:...--Ludwigs2 17:15, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- The "grievous harm" has been discussed above (multiple times), so I won't repeat it here. I'll just summarize: "snowball effect" when other governmental or religious groups expect the same exceptions proposed for this article. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 17:57, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- And as I've pointed out (multiple times) there is no harm in this. If someone is encouraged by this to raise an objection on a different page, then let them raise their objections and we will consider the merits of such on an article-by-article basis. That is wp:Consensus in action - how can that be harmful?
- The "grievous harm" has been discussed above (multiple times), so I won't repeat it here. I'll just summarize: "snowball effect" when other governmental or religious groups expect the same exceptions proposed for this article. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 17:57, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- and Robert:...--Ludwigs2 17:15, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- I 'get' that you have this vision of emboldened zealots running riot over the project, removing pictures left and right (possibly with torches and pitchforks?). it's an unrealistic vision that plays on irrational fears, and as such is of no use whatsoever in a rational dialog. Do you have some reason to believe that this is a realistic scenario? How would this actually happen? (excluding the torches and pitchforks, obviously…) --Ludwigs2 18:08, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- LoL, as much as I like fire, I too could do without the torches and pitchforks. That aside, it's happened before, and all we've had is policies and guidelines to shield Wikipedia from such efforts. Though it might not be evident, I've got articles on numerous topics (Islam, Muhammad, Christianity, Rapture, Judaism, atheism, evolution, creationism, ID, Scientology, LDS, Baptist, Taoism, Buddhism & many more (and tons of sub articles for many of those)) on my watchlist, and I've seen it happen (as various page histories and talk pages will support). I'm (and many others are) equally as diligent at protecting each from vandalism and POV pushing (including reverting such, not even image based, from here - and those others). Point being, I've seen such attempts at all of the articles due to various faith based reasoning. It already happens, and crippling the policy designed to prevent such will overflow to those and countless other articles. I've seen evolution trying to be ripped apart because it "makes fun of" (or similar) religious beliefs. I've seen ID and creationism being made a mockery of by those who may be atheists. I can't fight to prevent it if the policy on not adhering to (or giving any weight to mangling an article based on) religious beliefs is crippled. And neither can anyone else. And there is your snowball turned avalanche. :-/ Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 18:23, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- I 'get' that you have this vision of emboldened zealots running riot over the project, removing pictures left and right (possibly with torches and pitchforks?). it's an unrealistic vision that plays on irrational fears, and as such is of no use whatsoever in a rational dialog. Do you have some reason to believe that this is a realistic scenario? How would this actually happen? (excluding the torches and pitchforks, obviously…) --Ludwigs2 18:08, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- Ludwigs2, I'm not worried about huge numbers of emboldened zealots. The point is simple: the objections of one billion Muslims and the objections of one member of an obscure tribal religion are exactly equal because only the merits of an objection can be measured, not the popularity. When you tell me that very few images will be removed as a result of this discussion, you are assuring me that exactly what I fear will come to pass, because people are only going to care about the objections of popular religions and not the objections of minor ones. The only way to treat all religions equally is to disregard them all equally, and, as a secular encyclopedia, that is precisely what we need to do. The solution you seem to propose that is we are going to subject religions to some sort of popularity contest and let some of them count and some of them not. Doing so under the pretense of "ethics" is morally abhorrent.—Kww(talk) 00:22, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- (e/c)Kww: I would suggest to you that the error you are making is that you have turned the issue upside down. Trying to "evaluate the validity of someone's objection" is absurd: it puts us in the position of telling people that their deeply held beliefs are invalid, which will do nothing except anger them and paint us as prejudiced. What we should be doing - which is what I have been suggesting all along, mind you - is evaluating the value of an image to the article, and then deciding whether such an image is important enough to merit offending people. I mean seriously - do you really think any of these images do enough work in the article to merit 16 archives of angry diatribe?
- Editors here have gotten hung up on a fundamentalist interpretation of NOTCENSORED that causes a hell of a lot of commotion for no real gain to the article; does that result make sense to you? I wouldn't go so far as to call you unethical (mostly because I'm reasonably sure that you're trying to do what you think is best), but even people with the best intentions can miss the mark on ethics; ethics on an issue like this are difficult and complex. I'm sorry if you take it personally when I say that there is a failure of ethics on this page. What I would hope is that it would get you to rethink the way you approach the topic, rather than blindly defending the approach that has caused so much conflict over the years. --Ludwigs2 16:17, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- Ludwigs2, note that all I have been advocating is that only the relevance to the article should be considered. The problem is that you want to use an increased standard for some images in some articles without any secular basis for doing so. Underlying that is your stated intent of using this article as a wedge issue to implement changes that I believe would grievously harm Wikipedia, which certainly does cause me to resist your arguments more vigorously than I normally would. From the perspective of a secular encyclopedia, religious objections are less than trivial: they are irrelevant.—Kww(talk) 17:00, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- "it puts us in the position of telling people that their deeply held beliefs are invalid" - In the context of Wikipedia, their deeply held beliefs are irrelevant. We are a secular encyclopedia. It is not our responsibility to slant articles toward religious viewpoints. The neutral presentation of all aspects of history - both written and visual - requires that we treat such material dispassionately and in the same lens as we do any other image. You are not doing this Ludwigs. People like Kww are. Resolute 17:32, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- Kww: It would be useful for you to spell out what 'grievous harm' you think is going to come of this. I cannot think of any case in which that could happen. What I have been saying is that NOTCENSORED should apply when material has a clear mandate for being in the article, but should not be invoked over material that is trivial, tangential, decorative, or otherwise of no real consequence. On this page, for instance, I doubt that removing the images depicting Muhammad would harm the article in any noticeable way. I could be wrong about that, of course (that's why I'm trying to discuss the issue), but assuming for argument's sake that I am correct then removing the images by definition would not be harmful to the encyclopedia. In fact, it would benefit the encyclopedia greatly by removing the reason for countless hours of argument.
- I am concerned that both you and Resolute are turning the concept of secularity into a form of advocacy. Wikipedia is not 'secular' in the sense that it opposes all religions; Wikipedia is 'secular' in the sense that it takes no position on religions (in essence, Wikipedia is agnostic, not atheist). When secularity is invoked to prevent a religious viewpoint from imposing a bias, that's good, but when secularity is invoked to protect a seemingly pointless insult to a religious viewpoint, that boils down to promoting a distinct secular viewpoint in wikipedia's voice. That is a violation of NPOV.
- This is an encyclopedia meant to be read by people in the real world, and as such it should have respect for the perspectives and preferences of its readers as much as possible within the constraints of writing an encyclopedia. You argue as though our readers don't count, and that strikes me as absurd. This is not a playground for editors to do and say what they like in a total vacuum where the rest of the world just has to suck it up, and it's high time you guys realized that. --Ludwigs2 18:00, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- You are arguing that only a small minority of our readers count. You are already arguing in bad faith Ludwigs, don't start throwing hypocrisy into the mix. Resolute 18:26, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- personal attack noted, and dismissed as irrelevant. --Ludwigs2 18:30, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- Boy is that ever ironic coming from you. Resolute 18:35, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- Robert: Comment on content, not on the contributor. --Ludwigs2 18:52, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- Boy is that ever ironic coming from you. Resolute 18:35, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- personal attack noted, and dismissed as irrelevant. --Ludwigs2 18:30, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- You are arguing that only a small minority of our readers count. You are already arguing in bad faith Ludwigs, don't start throwing hypocrisy into the mix. Resolute 18:26, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- This is an encyclopedia meant to be read by people in the real world, and as such it should have respect for the perspectives and preferences of its readers as much as possible within the constraints of writing an encyclopedia. You argue as though our readers don't count, and that strikes me as absurd. This is not a playground for editors to do and say what they like in a total vacuum where the rest of the world just has to suck it up, and it's high time you guys realized that. --Ludwigs2 18:00, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
God this is a hard issue. I see everyone here as having good motives. Even you Tarc. :) We just disagree about what's for the best. FYI I've suggested including "Only use a controversial image when the same educational value can't be achieved using an uncontroversial image or minimal text" at WT:IUP. That should gain immediate acceptance and resolve all these problems in one deft stroke. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 14:41, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- The problem for you though is that it simply isn't a notable of significant controversy. Again, a gaggle of wiki-editors advocating for something they feel is controversial doesn't actually make it so. There is no outside preuure, no significant oppoition to images in this article. Your "only use a controversial image..." line has no applicability to this article. Tarc (talk) 16:02, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- Tarc, I believe that reasonable people will acknowledge that there is a definite real-world controversy here. This is not a fight between your gaggle of wiki-editors and some other gaggle of wiki-editors; this is an issue of conventional practice in a world religion. --Ludwigs2 16:26, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- Actually, I believe you will find that at best, most of us will agree there are real world objections, entirely religious based or motivated, in regards to this issue. Nothing more. Which brings us back to as you've stated numerous times, if we do not adhere to your POV, you will keep on and on and on, while trying to paint the rest of us as POV pushing (simply because we don't agree with you). Additionally, you keep citing policies you do not seem to understand. One such was CENSOR, which even though you cited it over 15 times, you didnt even know what was in it. The line I pulled from it has been there for what... months or years? Then, when you are enlightened to what policy actually says, you pull out the IAR card. Then, mixed into all of that, you claim (paraphrased) "oooh consensus, which you all are ignoring" when it is you ignoring a consensus that has been supported numerous time over the last few years. Then you repeatedly admit you'll continue to disrupt RfC efforts till you get your way.
- Then you make the bogus claim that taking such issues to places like Village Pump have returned you here for it being a content issue. The truth is, you lost that battle. With most being oppose or Strongly oppose. It SO failed that it was closed early.[1] Yes, Ludwigs2, as I said, I've got diffs of everything related to this, for in the event you continue to misstate reality and disrupt RfC Proposal Discussion. So, stop your games. Clearly, that is what they are, since you are even misstating events you were directly involved in. And ironically, your involvement in that Village Pump proposal also shows you did know what CENSOR says, even when you recently claimed above you had no idea about the sections I quoted. ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 18:59, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- Robert: Comment on content, not on the contributor. Nothing you said above is meaningful in this context except as a determined effort to poison the well. --Ludwigs2 19:14, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- In other words, neener neener? How charming. Regarding "a definite real-world controversy" above, yes, but you don't get to advocate on behalf of a religious minority, and your continued, deliberate falsehoods stated about the WMF resolutions's applicability to this issue here will continue to be challenged for as long as you choose to make them.
- There's really not much more to say on this entire fiasco that hasn't already been said. You've tried bringing this up in several forums now, from ArbCom to the village pump, failing spectacularly. The reality of the situation is that a change has been suggested, several times, and has been rejected each time. If you try to just unilaterally remove images from this article, the reverts will be swift. The possible avenues that you can take from here are rapidly diminishing. The ball's really in your court for what to do now. Tarc (talk) 19:23, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- Robert: Comment on content, not on the contributor. Nothing you said above is meaningful in this context except as a determined effort to poison the well. --Ludwigs2 19:14, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- Tarc, I believe that reasonable people will acknowledge that there is a definite real-world controversy here. This is not a fight between your gaggle of wiki-editors and some other gaggle of wiki-editors; this is an issue of conventional practice in a world religion. --Ludwigs2 16:26, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)Ludwigs2, I'll skip the fact that you've accused most of us of all sorts of nonsense. So, commenting on the content above requires pointing out the fallacies of the contributor. In order to weigh your suppositions, one must see your true intent. Nor is NPA even related. Truth is truth. Click the link yourself. Not my fault you got caught. For instance, I am most definitely at odds with Hans' feelings on this - but I have a lot of respect for him, because he has never misstated his intent. Wiqi55, though originally trying to get the images removed for similar reasons, has went out of his way to improve the article (and images & related information), for which he too gains a lot of respect from me. Anthony asks questions, considers answers, never hides his reasons and at the same time is working on improving the article while not disrupting attempts at forming an RfC - which ALSO gains a lot of respect from me. That leaves you, who clearly and grossly misstate events - including ones you were directly involved in (like the Village Pump item).
- Yet, perhaps you are correct. This is probably not the correct venue... I'll move it AN/I, with all the diffs (only a tiny fraction of which I have posted here, by end of day Tuesday. I have no patience for any editor who so disruptively deals in bad faith - which is why Hans, Wiqi and Anthony have my respect, and you... not so much. See you at AN/I. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 19:27, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- You still will not stop commenting on me. you've done nothing for the last several posts except try to berate me for one thing or another, usually with gross exaggerations of my actual statements and actions. If you have any credible complaint about my behavior I suggest you bring it up in an appropriate forum NOW, because a few more posts of this unrelenting personal assault and you will force me to seek an uninvolved administrator myself. --Ludwigs2 20:54, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- I've done nothing of the sort. I have simply pointed out your repeated "mis-statements" and conflicting statements. If you wish me to stop, simply take more care in the accuracy of what you post. It's that simple. ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 21:18, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- If you follow the principle 'comment on content, not on the contributor', then we will not have a problem. if you continue poisoning the well by masking absurd comments about "my true intent" then you will be explaining your actions to an administrator. If you cannot make the effort to understand what I am saying in a fair light, that's fine, and I'm ok with you critiquing my position, but accusing me of motivations or intentions that you've made up out of whole cloth is a violation of wp:CIV, wp:NPA, and wp:TPG. thanks for understanding. --Ludwigs2 23:14, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- I've done nothing of the sort. I have simply pointed out your repeated "mis-statements" and conflicting statements. If you wish me to stop, simply take more care in the accuracy of what you post. It's that simple. ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 21:18, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
To Anthonyhcole: on commenting on relevance, objection and such. As you've already noted, part of the problem with "diminished" relevance is that someone took a very important part of the article out (the one you're working on restoring). Here's another irony. If this controversy is so important (ie: notable), then indication of the representations the controversy surrounds gains a level of notability as well. Not because "oh, let's offend by using the controversial images" - but instead by "here's some uncontroversial ones (flame, obscured face, etc) created to honor such beliefs of a certain sect of Islam - and here's images by other sects of Islam and by historians which show their perceptions of Muhammad, where the prohibition is not followed/believed". One cannot textually and historically present such a representation without the images. Text does not satisfy demonstrating how those with and without such restrictions perceived Muhammad - only images suffice. That leaves us the following quandary... either (1) based on the differing interpretations of that prohibition in the Islamic faith (and by those not of any sect of that faith) the images have relevance due to such issues (and an inability to portray such perceptions adequately with anything other than images)... or (2) the controversial aspect is not relevant or is so minimal that it can be discounted, in which case removal of the images would also be senseless. The way I see it, both roads lead to the same place.
But that still gets us back to any other exception to WP:CENSOR and IUP requires using the correct venue - as Ludwigs2 and others have tried[2] more than once (and failed). Perhaps this time they would succeed, but we'll never know, because of an insistence on using this, the wrong venue to try to bring about policy changes. We can't change policy here - whether we agree with it or not. The correct method is to change policy elsewhere and then re-evaluate how that change affects this (and other) article(s). Not "ignore policy here and hope it gets changed to support that" (no, you are not guilty of that - even remotely. Just pointing out what such efforts above amount to). Best, Rob ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 20:46, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- I completely agree with your second proposition, Rob. Attempting to reconcile WP:IUP, WP:NOTCENSORED and (my interpretation of) the Foundation's resolution and then use that interpretation to challenge content here is going nowhere. If that kind of policy change is going to happen, it'll be on WP:IUP, not here. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 08:51, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- I would like to argue your first proposition, though. But I don't want to waste your time with half-baked thoughts. I'll definitely get back to that soon. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 08:51, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- Well I can see that tensions are running high as ever. Has there been a consensus of questions for the RfC or should we continue to submit suggestions at this point? I tried to make my original one as neutral as I could but I think question 2 was a bit better and more to the point. Tivanir2 (talk) 22:29, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
Addressing editors who have significant concerns about the use of images of Muhammad on this article
We need to get our thinking straight; pin down our points of agreement; sharpen our arguments. For starters, am I right in thinking
- No one would object to pictures of Muhammad illustrating Muhammad#Depictions of Muhammad (if it ever gets written)
- No one objects to pictures of Muhammad illustrating Depictions of Muhammad
- We believe the artists' impressions of historical events in this article have no educational value for the topic of this article - or, if they do, not enough to justify the space they take up.
The question of whether the Foundation resolution has implications for this article, I'd really like to put off till a little later in this thread, once the more straightforward points are clarified. If you can think of any other important possible points of agreement among us that need to be clarified, please add to the list. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 02:01, 31 October 2011 (UTC) (I just jumped online and have to jump off again, so haven't read the last day's posts. Will do in 4 or 5 hours. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 02:07, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- Good start, but I see a couple problems right off:
- There is no agreement that the section described in #2 needs to be written for this biography article.
- Point #3 is not a point of agreement, it's a point of disagreement. ~Amatulić (talk) 07:46, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- Correct. Wrt #3, I'm wondering if those with concerns share a view on this point. Forgive me if I misunderstood, but I thought you were OK with the present use of images on this article, Amatulic. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 08:23, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- Anthony, these are all things I would agree with, with the obvious caveats that it hasn't touched on the ethics or foundation principles issues, and that point three skirts around something that is/will be a major bone of contention. I don't think it is possible to say that any image has no value to the encyclopedia (simply coloring up the page is a value of sorts). we are sparring over the issue of enough value, which brings in the dual questions of how to evaluate the positive value of an image and whether 'controversiality' is a negative value to be weighed against positive values. But with that in mind I'd agree with what you've written. --Ludwigs2 17:25, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- P.s. maybe you can add that as point 4 - one of the concerns here is that the 'controversiality' of an image should be weighed in to its evaluation. --Ludwigs2 17:28, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- Anthony, Two suggestions: (1) your question on shared point of view is probably not something you want to steer to. The history of this talk page will show that most (not all) who share a view do so for reasons that will be deemed religious (whether personally held beliefs, or the belief we should honor/respect others' religious beliefs so we don't offend). That probably won't turn out well without a policy change first. And I guarantee you, even if I am uninvolved in this, numerous people will find such shared POVs if such is in the proposal. (2) I'd steer away from "controversiality" as well, because "offense", "controversial" and so on all point back to religious beliefs - which, like my #1 above, all point back to Wikipedia no longer being secular. It's a difficult situation, I know. Especially when multiple roads lead back to the Village Pump for policy changes. Now, if you are discussing proposing a policy change, then yes, all of the above becomes valid for incorporation. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 18:07, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks. I'm trying to see what those presently engaged in this discussion who object to the way images are used in this article are complaining about, if we put the controversy/Foundation resolution to one side. I'm pretty convinced this is not the venue to sort out the relevance, if any, of the controversial/offensive nature of the pictures. Now I want to see, with that off the table, the exact nature of other objections. That's starting to crystalize below. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 09:37, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, I am OK with the present use of the images. That's why I said that your item #3 wasn't a point of agreement, because it basically says "we agree the present use is wrong." There is a fairly good consensus that the way images are used presently is fine. Ludgwigs2 disagrees, seeing a problem with ethics and controversiality. He has not made a convincing argument (to me at least) that such problems even exist here. The fact remains that we are having this discussion because Ludwigs2 wants to hold the images in this article to higher standards than any other biography on Wikipedia. The only reason we are having this discussion is because some folks are offended. That's what it boils down to. As far as I can see from looking over years of archives, those who are offended seem generally ignorant of their own faith, they are offended by their own choice or by indoctrination. That, and the fact that they complain here, are not reasons for Wikipedia to coddle them when the images do add educational value to the article. ~Amatulić (talk) 18:45, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- Yep. My section heading could have been clearer. Sorry. I was just trying to see what common ground is shared by those who are currently objecting to the way images are used here. I understand you are not among those. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 09:37, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- Two points, one general, one directly to Amatulic:
- general point: I believe that anthony is trying to get a feel for points of agreement between those editors who have concerns about the images. While editors who support the images are certainly free to comment, we do not really need another section of dispute over the same material. Once we have a clear set of agreements between the 'oppose' editors, we can go back to debating the issue. that will make the discussion more clear and effective all around, so I would ask the supporters not to get involved in this particular debate.
- Amatulic:
- your argument seems to be that "anyone who objects to the image is too ignorant to be coddled" - if you cannot see either the ethical or the logical problems inherent in that approach, I don't know what to say to you.
- You are an admin, and that sysop bit holds you to a higher standard of behavior. I understand the need on your side to make this about me as a personal matter - attacking me personally is the only way to avoid discussing the issues I'm raising, which may be the only way for your side to sidestep the conclusions that would otherwise be natural. it's not the first time I've dealt with that kind of thing on project, nor will it be the last, but I expect admins to be more circumspect than average editors. I've already corrected the statement you made about me here made here twice; do I need to do it a third time, and accuse you of wp:IDHT to boot? --Ludwigs2 20:22, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- Two points, one general, one directly to Amatulic:
- I am not an admin in this dispute. Please respect the distinction. Admins aren't special people, they are simply editors with a few extra tools, and those tools are not to be used when WP:INVOLVED in a content dispute. Also, stop seeing personal attacks where there are none. About you, I simply stated that you see a problem with ethics and controversiality and have not argued the case convincingly, and that you appear to want to apply higher standards to the images here than anywhere else. Right or wrong, that is the impression you have given, and I apologize if that impression is incorrect but that's how it seems to me. Finally, do not misrepresent the position of others. I didn't say anyone who objects to the images is too ignorant to be coddled. You clearly aren't. However, look at the archives. Almost 100% of those who object have done so based on premises that are false by Islam's own theology. We can attempt to educate them, or we can bend to their ignorance. There's a big ethical problem in doing the latter. ~Amatulić (talk) 23:55, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- Point one is obviously false, given the people opposed are opposed to all images of Muhammad on the article, not their placement. Cramming them into one section will not resolve the issue for those people. All it does is allow a certain editor to pretend they are being reasonable now while the necessary reduction in images that such a change would cause would actually get them halfway to their goal of censoring the article to suit their viewpoint. The battle for the other half would commence rather quickly, I suspect. Resolute 18:50, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks for clarifying, Amatulic. Resolute, I suspect Hans, Qwyrxian, and possibly Wiqi55, along with me and Ludwigs, have no problem with relevant images of Muhammad illustrating a section addressing images of Muhammad. Not sure, though. Hence this section. You're right, if that is established it will clarify the debate some, and focus the debate on the specific usage being opposed, rather than image use in general. I'm certainly not proposing cramming images into such a section, one example, or two at the very most would be due weight. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 01:28, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- Anthony, I think you missed a few parts above. (1) It will not end the "issue" at hand. Which is that there are images of Muhammad in the article (it is not their location causing the problem - it is their existence in the article causing problems). (2) A few of the editors you name (see conversations or diffs above) have indicated they wish no images and do not seem interested in a compromise. If agreement for moving the images to their own section occurs, it will only be a stepping stone to removing them. The next step will be removing the "redundant" section because a "Depictions" article already exists (sound like recent history?). And finally, by what standard or policy or guideline do you think that this article deserves special treatment over the numerous other articles with similar (ie: religiously motivated) disputes to remove content (text or image based)? Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 01:38, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- I'll clarify my position in light of Anthonycoles' request/point. I do not object wholesale to all images of Muhammad, nor do I think that we should interpret the recent WMF resolution to mean that we should remove these images (side note: I do 100% support the creation of tools that make it possible for others to block the images; I myself, for example, will use such tools to block pictures of nudity, etc., while I'm at work, as I need some images blocked but not all images, as the current work-arounds require). I do believe that we are probably over-using images in this article, because, as has been pointed out by others, these images all come from a fairly narrow time frame and area, and using them to represent Muhammad throughout the article is excessive; in other words, I consider the over-emphasis of a narrow category of images to be a violation of WP:UNDUE. I also believe that we should have more calligraphic or other abstract images (assuming we can get them as free/fair use files), given that that is how Muhammad is represented the overwhelming majority of the time in Islam. I do believe that we should have a section in this article that acts as a summary (see WP:Summary style) of Depictions of Muhammad, and that said section should contain one or two visual (picture) images of Muhammad. I believe that the Depictions of Muhammad article should contain as many images as we can reasonably fit, keeping in mind the constraints of WP:UNDUE (i.e., not overemphasizing one specific time period/artist/whatever). In other words, I'm not coming at this from a "potentially offensive" position--I'm coming at it from the requirements of WP:NPOV, which I believe this article violates. Finally, one of my main points so far in the last week or two is that I consider it insulting that some editors have constantly lampooned this as a dead issue, as one of pandering, of accusing some people of bad faith, and of attempting to prevent the dispute resolution process from being used by those who feel that their voices are not being heard. Qwyrxian (talk) 01:50, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- Qwyrxian: There are definitely points I agree upon. I have no idea why some editors would (a) try to remove an opponent with WQA, (b) try to do an end run to ArbCom when valid RfC proposals were on the table, (c) misstate their position at ArbCom, (d) propose RfC's that through implication or direct wording make the questions "remove or remove or remove" and so on. You're correct, if that isn't bad faith, I dont know what is. Nonetheless, in good faith, with numerous conversations being derailed because I wont agree to removing all images, I've proposed an RfC that addresses your concerns. The "all or nothing" ones on the table will not work to do that. Nor will the "none or none" proposal. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 02:37, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- I pretty much endorse this entire post, Qwyrxian, it's a common sense approach to the page. Noformation Talk 02:45, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- I'll clarify my position in light of Anthonycoles' request/point. I do not object wholesale to all images of Muhammad, nor do I think that we should interpret the recent WMF resolution to mean that we should remove these images (side note: I do 100% support the creation of tools that make it possible for others to block the images; I myself, for example, will use such tools to block pictures of nudity, etc., while I'm at work, as I need some images blocked but not all images, as the current work-arounds require). I do believe that we are probably over-using images in this article, because, as has been pointed out by others, these images all come from a fairly narrow time frame and area, and using them to represent Muhammad throughout the article is excessive; in other words, I consider the over-emphasis of a narrow category of images to be a violation of WP:UNDUE. I also believe that we should have more calligraphic or other abstract images (assuming we can get them as free/fair use files), given that that is how Muhammad is represented the overwhelming majority of the time in Islam. I do believe that we should have a section in this article that acts as a summary (see WP:Summary style) of Depictions of Muhammad, and that said section should contain one or two visual (picture) images of Muhammad. I believe that the Depictions of Muhammad article should contain as many images as we can reasonably fit, keeping in mind the constraints of WP:UNDUE (i.e., not overemphasizing one specific time period/artist/whatever). In other words, I'm not coming at this from a "potentially offensive" position--I'm coming at it from the requirements of WP:NPOV, which I believe this article violates. Finally, one of my main points so far in the last week or two is that I consider it insulting that some editors have constantly lampooned this as a dead issue, as one of pandering, of accusing some people of bad faith, and of attempting to prevent the dispute resolution process from being used by those who feel that their voices are not being heard. Qwyrxian (talk) 01:50, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- Anthony, I think you missed a few parts above. (1) It will not end the "issue" at hand. Which is that there are images of Muhammad in the article (it is not their location causing the problem - it is their existence in the article causing problems). (2) A few of the editors you name (see conversations or diffs above) have indicated they wish no images and do not seem interested in a compromise. If agreement for moving the images to their own section occurs, it will only be a stepping stone to removing them. The next step will be removing the "redundant" section because a "Depictions" article already exists (sound like recent history?). And finally, by what standard or policy or guideline do you think that this article deserves special treatment over the numerous other articles with similar (ie: religiously motivated) disputes to remove content (text or image based)? Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 01:38, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks for clarifying, Amatulic. Resolute, I suspect Hans, Qwyrxian, and possibly Wiqi55, along with me and Ludwigs, have no problem with relevant images of Muhammad illustrating a section addressing images of Muhammad. Not sure, though. Hence this section. You're right, if that is established it will clarify the debate some, and focus the debate on the specific usage being opposed, rather than image use in general. I'm certainly not proposing cramming images into such a section, one example, or two at the very most would be due weight. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 01:28, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
This is also in response to Antonyhcole's comment. I also do not object automatically to every and any image of Muhammad here. Two aspects are capable in principle of being illustrated in such a way in spite of the (unreasonable, in my opinion) offence to some Muslims: (1) Muhammad reception in the West. (2) A discussion of the image prohibition. However, even if we ignore, for the sake of the argument, the inane argument that offence taken by a large number of people for religious reasons doesn't count on an article about the very religion whose members take offence, there are enough arguments left to reduce the number of illustrations to at most two:
- The Western Muhammad reception needs at most one image, as some kind of focal point. This is also the number we have at the moment. Any more than that would be undue weight because the important thing here is the reception in writing. Reception by Western painters, if someone wanted to discuss it, would definitely have to be moved to a separate article.
- The image prohibition and also the phase(s) in which it was interpreted more sensibly and Muslims did depict Muhammad can, in principle, be discussed in the article. But more than one image for this very minor aspect is overkill and massive undue weight.
- This article is a key part in our series of articles on Islam. Images in articles serve a dual purpose. While each of them individually illustrates some detail in an article, all of them together give an impression of a topic's mainstream iconography. Our Muhammad article is currently lying about the iconography of Muhammad by showcasing numerous atypical pictures. Hans Adler 06:52, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- Hmmm... interesting point (Bullet 3). Image 1 and 2 do seem to have stylistic similarities (to each other). I didnt notice such in the rest, but it's late. I'll look again tomorrow.
- You've made a very compelling argument for evaluating the images in that light. Yes, I know others have stated they've evaluated them in that fashion. But I'd rather make up my own mind. Tomorrow. When I am more awake. Off to bed. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 09:09, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- Actually those comments bring up a good point that I hadn't thought about. While we are generally apprehensive of removing current pictures why does the article not have any current depiction types (i.e. the flame or flame with face that is normally used to depict him by the muslim community in present time.) I am not saying we should necessarily replace any pictures (thats for the RfC obviously) but we don't have any modern day type images which would also be a good addition to the text in my opinion. Tivanir2 (talk) 14:21, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- The most recent Islamic image (1808) is "flame-only". It would be ideal to have a modern, probably Iranian, image, but copyright keeps these off Commons. We don't even have any at Depictions of Muhammad. It might be possible to have one under "fair use", but given how vulnerable to attack all images of the Prophet are, one wonders how long that would last. I don't agree with Hans Adler's points - our images are, with the exception of the absence of a modern one, reasonably typical of the images that exist. These come from a wide variety of cultures, covering more than half the period since the Prophet's lifetime. Exactly the same criticism could be made of images used in Jesus and other Christian articles as "lying" about Christian use of images. Jesus has (very low down) a reasonable section on Depictions of Jesus, which rather remarkably did not mention Protestant aniconism at all (a sentence now added). We should restore a brief section here covering Islamic aniconism & the depictions, and linking to the other articles, & that is under discussion elsewhere here. Johnbod (talk) 14:46, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- I would like to point out that setting an arbitrary number is not a great way to start any sort of editing. Pictures with relevence should be included (again we need to look at said pictures and determine relevence) and pictures that have no relevence should be removed. As far as biography portraits go this is extremely meager especially compared to even other religious founder articles. Tivanir2 (talk) 14:50, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- Tivanir2: I noticed that too. There were such images at one time. And I think whatever images we agree belong in the article must have such portrayals (flame, veil, etc) to be balanced. I also agree with the (paraphrased) "no arbitrary number" comment. Content, need, relevance, balance (ie: flame, veil, face shown, etc) and value should be all that is used to weigh such - regardless of whether that means 2 images or 200 images or something inbetween. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 17:28, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- Johnbod: I suspect those would be the only images that were not objected to - though I do suspect if another en-masse removal attempt is made (though unlikely due to the semi-protect), that such images would simply be associated casualties - and not due to an objection to them specifically. I guess, either way, that leaves us some work on finding an image that's PD or that we can use a fair use claim on. Definitely against the imbalanced portrayal that Tiv has pointed out. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 17:31, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- The most recent Islamic image (1808) is "flame-only". It would be ideal to have a modern, probably Iranian, image, but copyright keeps these off Commons. We don't even have any at Depictions of Muhammad. It might be possible to have one under "fair use", but given how vulnerable to attack all images of the Prophet are, one wonders how long that would last. I don't agree with Hans Adler's points - our images are, with the exception of the absence of a modern one, reasonably typical of the images that exist. These come from a wide variety of cultures, covering more than half the period since the Prophet's lifetime. Exactly the same criticism could be made of images used in Jesus and other Christian articles as "lying" about Christian use of images. Jesus has (very low down) a reasonable section on Depictions of Jesus, which rather remarkably did not mention Protestant aniconism at all (a sentence now added). We should restore a brief section here covering Islamic aniconism & the depictions, and linking to the other articles, & that is under discussion elsewhere here. Johnbod (talk) 14:46, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- Actually those comments bring up a good point that I hadn't thought about. While we are generally apprehensive of removing current pictures why does the article not have any current depiction types (i.e. the flame or flame with face that is normally used to depict him by the muslim community in present time.) I am not saying we should necessarily replace any pictures (thats for the RfC obviously) but we don't have any modern day type images which would also be a good addition to the text in my opinion. Tivanir2 (talk) 14:21, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
Anthony, as for point 1, I am sure some people would object to images of Muhammad in Muhammad#Depictions of Muhammad (if it ever gets written). Having such images there would not be vital, given that there would be a link to the main article. If we had an image, I would advocate that it be a veiled one (example). Points 2 and 3 I agree with. --JN466 02:59, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- Hi Jayen! Thanks for that. I messed up this thread with an ambiguous title. :( I was really just trying to clarify the position of editors presently here advocating removal of images. They've now mostly chimed in, so I'll just let this thread ramble on, as these things do, until something shinier pops up. :) --Anthonyhcole (talk) 13:30, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- Jayen, that section was written. Someone took it out (see thread with related title on this talk page). Anyway, from following page after page (which are now all in the archives) about the images, you may find their existence here is the issue - not where they are located. BTW, thanks for the image link. I'll be proposing an image change/addition (will see who wishes which) as not having such a representation seems not to be balanced. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 03:23, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- Here is quote from the archive that clearly suggests that the number and location of images affect the amount of objection to them:
We got along fine with one picture at the Muhammad article for more than a year, I think it was. It was a Persian miniature, it was small, Muhammad's face was veiled, and I thought it was a sensible compromise between some Muslim sensibilities and reader's right to know how some Muslims depicted Muhammad. The other pictures were at the Depictions of Muhammad article, where we had space to treat the subject thoroughly. That seemed to be acceptable to all.
- Anecdotal evidence, yes, but still useful. Full post here [3] Wiqi(55) 04:16, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- Not even the slightest bit useful. We have no idea at all what piques the SPAs and vandals ire at any given moment, whatever incites them to come here and post their harangues is beyond the purview of this board. What is interesting though is that in the several weeks since Ludwigs2 initiated this fiasco, we have not had a single comment in this discussion by a non-established, regular users. No IPs, no SPAs, not in any of these topics or even to file an Edit Request. If you wish to ponder anecdotal evidence of editor behavior, ponder that one for a bit. Tarc (talk) 04:24, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- Not really related anyway. It was a veiled image. Not really a compromise either, since it's accepted as ok (which means one side gives nothing). As for the Depictions article, it didnt make press - though it does get some removal requests (all archived now). And a lot less since this article no longer has a decent sized section pointing to it. ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 04:32, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks, Wiqi55. I must say I agree with the general sentiment expressed in that 2006 post you linked to. --JN466 21:02, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- May I ask, in all seriousness, how a picture of a veiled Muhammad in any way is representative of how those perceived his face to look? The information presented is not the same. In the example at the link above, the Quranic calligraphy was the subject matter - not the sleeveless woman. In this, Muhammad and how history perceives him is the subject matter - not one single perception, not a veil (except as a representation of part of one perception). The comparison seems rather inapplicable. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 21:18, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- The style with the veiled face would seem to have been the dominant style in the depictions that were created, making it the representative type of image. --JN466 04:07, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- I see a point in that, but, assuming unveiled depictions did not gain a lot of notability due to "controversy" (for lack of a better word), that would simply argue towards a better balance. Currently, I think it is 2 veiled, 4 not veiled. But, here's an interesting thing (and a follow-up point): when I searched Google for images, using the word "flame" in the search terms, all but one image were unveiled and unflamed (and there was a bunch of calligraphy). Note, I only said that such was interesting. On to the follow-up point (and perhaps this is the reason my search results ended the way they did), either due to changing perceptions in various sects of Islam or perceptions of those who are not necessarily Muslim but venerate Muhammad (or have interest in him), or due to the "controversy"(for lack of a better word) surrounding the images, or a combination of those, it seems the other (non-veiled) images have a very high degree of notability. But that's just my opinion. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 05:18, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- The style with the veiled face would seem to have been the dominant style in the depictions that were created, making it the representative type of image. --JN466 04:07, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- May I ask, in all seriousness, how a picture of a veiled Muhammad in any way is representative of how those perceived his face to look? The information presented is not the same. In the example at the link above, the Quranic calligraphy was the subject matter - not the sleeveless woman. In this, Muhammad and how history perceives him is the subject matter - not one single perception, not a veil (except as a representation of part of one perception). The comparison seems rather inapplicable. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 21:18, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
Religulous Pastafarians
Wow it took me hours to read this latest talk page and I've not commented here in quite a while but I noticed it pinging away on my watchlist. This reminds me of the guy who created the Flying Spaghetti Monster to prove his point about creationism. Let me use my use my own very simplified analogy for all those islamist who wish Wikipedia to remove pictures of Muhammad because it offends them or they believe their religious dotrines do not permit it. My god says "PIZZA IS EVIL, DO NOT EAT PIZZA". I ask all of you to please stop eating pizza, it offends me and my god. Should I now start going to known pizza parlors starting picket lines? This might seem silly because it is silly. There are literally hundreds of different religions with conflicting dogma. Shall we cater to them all or just pick out the ones we like or are the most vocal? This encyclopedia is supposed to be a reflection of human knowledge. It is WP:NOTCENSORED and never will be. Garycompugeek (talk) 20:13, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- so your solution, then, is to force feed people pizza even if there are other things to eat? There are plenty of places to get pizza and no one's going to close them; a rule that requires pizza be served with every meal is just downright silly. --Ludwigs2 20:26, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
After reading Ludwigs response I'm wondering if maybe there is some kind of language/communication barrier. Garycompugeek (talk) 00:13, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- Tools and instructions, top of this talk page, indicating how to avoid seeing the images. Additionally, almost 100% of the people who have complained (see talk page archives) are one off accounts who fully knew that coming here would expose them to such images - and chose to view this article anyway. That was their choice. They could simply have listened to whatever news report they saw or read and realized the images are here - then chose not to come here. Big difference, IMHO. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 20:34, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- I think his point was that it would be absurd to expect the pizza places of the world to stop serving pizza (eviscerating their purpose in the process) in response to a religious group shouting outside their window. Furthermore, as I've said above, I don't think most Muslims are so closed-minded as you make them out to be. Where I live (not far from Bridgeport, CT), we have a few Iranian families, some Bosniaks, a significant community of Albanians, and a couple of Indonesian families. I can safely assure you that none of them would find these at all offensive; indeed, my Albanian friends were disgusted when they couldn't find the Jyllands Posten cartoons, because they wanted to see what could have possibly been so horribly offensive. When they finally saw them (through Wikipedia), they thought it was ridiculous that anyone could get so angry given the myriad ways everyone else's deities are parodied (incidentally, the vast majority of "protesters" were teens who wanted to make noise, not true-believing Muslims). The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 22:55, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- Blade - you know, I'm aghast at the constant misrepresentation of the problem here. It's as though most editors on this page are incapable of principled behavior (most of the arguments I read here sound like Kohlberg stage 1 or 2; maybe one argument strays as high as stage 4). I wouldn't believe that possible in conversations with otherwise normal adults, but I can't argue with the evidence, either. it's disturbing.
- The 'principle' of the matter is that we are pithily snubbing a belief of a major world religion for no real reason and without any clear gain for the article. Are there Muslims who don't care about this issue? I'm sure their are lots, just as I'm sure there are lots of Jews who don't care one whit about holocaust denialism, and lots of Christians who wouldn't bat an eye at the theory that Jesus was banging Mary in his off-hours. Somehow we manage to be respectful enough of Judaism and Christianity not to spout off about these theories except in places where it is appropriate and necessary. Yet when it comes to this page, those are taboo considerations - we somehow must do the disrespectful thing, and it is (if you listen to the some of the arguments here) apparently a violation of policy even to consider the appropriateness and necessity of the images.
- I am faintly disgusted by the continuing effort to fanaticize the opposition that I see you and a number of other editors engaging in. Your arguments seem mostly to involve a search for different derisive labels to slap on people who disagree with you, in order to make them appear ignorant, unknowledgeable, extremist, unrepresentative, or otherwise 'bad people' who should be ignored. It is a ugly approach, reeking of bad faith and prejudice (and non-falsifiable as well, since ultimately the only criteria for them being labeled 'bad people' is that they oppose you). If you honestly cannot craft a better argument than "our opponents are too worthless to consider" then you don't have a credible argument to offer, and you ought to stop trying.
- Harrumph! End of rant (for now…) --Ludwigs2 01:47, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- You say: "I'm sure there are lots of Jews who don't care one whit about holocaust denialism, and lots of Christians who wouldn't bat an eye at the theory that Jesus was banging Mary in his off-hours." - these are gratuitously offensive and insulting remarks, as well as totally inaccurate comparisons. The comparison shows you have failed to grasp the situation here at all. Johnbod (talk) 18:46, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- We have no obligation what so ever to respect any religious belief and we don't have to justify depictions of Muhammad in a Muhammad article with an appeal to Islamic tradition; their traditions are their own and in what they publish they are welcome to develop their own rules. We are an encyclopedia, and if depictions of Muhammad in a Muhammad article offend some portion of the world, to be frank: tough shit. Religious beliefs should never shape this secular encyclopedia and the only time offending people (and I don't care if it's 99% of the world's population) should be a consideration is if it could possibly lead to legal action against us. We didn't capitulate to Scientologists when they complained that publishing information about Xenu was out of line with their religious practices and we sure as hell should not capitulate to Islamic beliefs either. To further the pizza analogy, no one is forcing Muslims to use Wikipedia, nor to view the page on Muhammad; if someone doesn't like it they can find another online encyclopedia, and a non-pizza dinner establishment for that matter. Noformation Talk 02:11, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you for proving my point. You've basically just said: "we're free to insult any religion when and where we feel like it, and if they don't like it they can go find another encyclopedia." In one fell swoop, you've turned Wikipedia into the worlds first 'yellow press' encyclopedia. congratulations! --Ludwigs2 04:29, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- I didn't say we're free to insult, I said we should not consider offense when determining article content. Not caring about offending someone is not the same as insulting someone, it is very very different both in MO and intention. Some people are offended by things you and I would find tame, there's a difference between not considering what offends them important and calling those people dicks - big difference. Noformation Talk 04:35, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- Exactly. I recognize that there are people who get up in arms over images of Muhammad, just as there are many, many Muslims who do not. While they are perfectly entitled to be as angry as they want, we are under no obligation to take it into account. This has nothing to do with deliberately offending people, but rather providing the highest quality information we can. It doesn't make sense to try and describe someone as well-known as Muhammad without knowing the different ways he was portrayed. All of the images here, at least in my opinion, do a better job of communicating it than mere text would, and is therefore in compliance with policy. If providing high quality information means some people get angry, that's the price we pay; think for a moment about the 6 billion or so people (such as myself) who aren't Muslims for a moment. Why should our understanding of Muhammad suffer because some Muslims happen not to like something? (By the way, I'm not claiming the only people who dare argue against the images of Muhammad are all fanatics of some sort, more that there's more than one Muslim point of view on the matter. Neither of us can speak for the "Muslim point of view" as if it's unified, because it's plainly not.) The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 05:21, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- Guys, you do realize that this is exactly the kind of reasoning used in entrenched racism, don't you? I mean, this is like that age-old Deep South Jim Crow thing where they used to say (pardon me for this offensive example): "'N*@@er' is just what we call those people, we don't mean any insult by it, and it's not our concern if a few uppity n*@@ers don't like it." You are trying to render your opponents as unworthy of being listened to - you may even truly believe they are unworthy of being listened to - but that is your problem, not theirs.
- Exactly. I recognize that there are people who get up in arms over images of Muhammad, just as there are many, many Muslims who do not. While they are perfectly entitled to be as angry as they want, we are under no obligation to take it into account. This has nothing to do with deliberately offending people, but rather providing the highest quality information we can. It doesn't make sense to try and describe someone as well-known as Muhammad without knowing the different ways he was portrayed. All of the images here, at least in my opinion, do a better job of communicating it than mere text would, and is therefore in compliance with policy. If providing high quality information means some people get angry, that's the price we pay; think for a moment about the 6 billion or so people (such as myself) who aren't Muslims for a moment. Why should our understanding of Muhammad suffer because some Muslims happen not to like something? (By the way, I'm not claiming the only people who dare argue against the images of Muhammad are all fanatics of some sort, more that there's more than one Muslim point of view on the matter. Neither of us can speak for the "Muslim point of view" as if it's unified, because it's plainly not.) The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 05:21, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- I didn't say we're free to insult, I said we should not consider offense when determining article content. Not caring about offending someone is not the same as insulting someone, it is very very different both in MO and intention. Some people are offended by things you and I would find tame, there's a difference between not considering what offends them important and calling those people dicks - big difference. Noformation Talk 04:35, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you for proving my point. You've basically just said: "we're free to insult any religion when and where we feel like it, and if they don't like it they can go find another encyclopedia." In one fell swoop, you've turned Wikipedia into the worlds first 'yellow press' encyclopedia. congratulations! --Ludwigs2 04:29, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- Harrumph! End of rant (for now…) --Ludwigs2 01:47, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- You are playing word games to make your unpleasant actions look socially acceptable. but let's look at the facts:
- You know that these images offend people (you collectively acknowledge it regularly)
- You know that a proscription against images like this exists in the Muslim faith (you collectively acknowledge that regularly as well)
- You know that these images add little to nothing to the article (none of you has been able to point to anything except trivial values for these images)
- Now look at the way you collectively try to twist out of this ungainly state:
- You attack the people who are offended, suggesting they are ignorant zealots unworthy of consideration
- You try to minimize this as 'individual preferences' and refuse to acknowledge that this is a well-known principle of the faith
- You try to shift blame onto the victims (classic passive-voice deflection, e.g. "We're not offending then, they are just being offended by what we're doing")
- You use bad policy logic ("we have to offend them because our policy says we can't not do it")
- Add that you consistently ignore counter-arguments and then make stuff up, and your whole argument becomes patently ridiculous. to whit:
- Blade: as discussed repeatedly these images are not 'high-quality information'. They have little to no informational value, and could easily be removed from the article without harm.
- Nofo: 'not caring about offense' cuts both ways; if you truly didn't care about offense you would consider removing the images because they have no particular informational value, but instead you seem to care very much about continuing to offend people regardless of the benefits (or lack thereof) to the encyclopedia. 'WP doesn't about offense' is not the same as 'WP tells them they can suck it'.
- Blade: You say that "Neither of us can speak for the "Muslim point of view", but in fact you are trying to promote a side of the dispute that is a distinct historical minority. Not showing pictures of the prophet unless we have cause is neutral; insisting on pictures even without cause is a distinct action that can only be perceived as biased.
- You are playing word games to make your unpleasant actions look socially acceptable. but let's look at the facts:
- You talk you me as though you think I don't understand that Wikipedia sometimes has to offend people because the encyclopedia requires it. But you are the ones who do not seem to understand that last 'requires it' phrase. I defy you to give an explanation of why these images are required on this page - I do that safely because I'm quite sure you can't. In fact, I expect you to ignore the challenge, because that's what happened the last three or four times I've asked for that explanation. But realize that by avoiding this question you are just putting off the inevitable. Sooner or later you are going to have to face the fact that you are wasting 100s of hours of editor time defending images that piss people off for no good reason. When you finally face that, I hope you will have the good graces to be ashamed. --Ludwigs2 14:46, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- "Not showing pictures unless we have a cause" is strictly to pander to muslim senseabilities and ties directly to the think of the children concept. We don't have highly inappropriate pictures here (I don't see any questionable acts, no pictures of "Everyone draw Muhammad day, no bomb turbans) and it's asking for people to set aside that this is a western view encyclopedia. In any western setting it is perfectly reasonable to show pictures of someone when you write a biography about them. Having to have a requirement to show them doesn't even play into the equation. Most editors have weighed in on good reasons why they should be kept, and most if not all have been willing to at least review areas where the pictures might no longer make sense. However to blantently require we need to observe a religious edict held by approximately 85% of a religion is not what I would consider acceptable under NPOV and NOTCENSORED as it is censoring and adopting the POV we shouldn't offend someone on religious grounds. If a santized view is what people want they provide a way to get it, and that should be sufficient. Requiring everyone to do without because someone is offended when they can simple block out the pictures for themselves is not acceptable. Tivanir2 (talk) 16:18, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- Also being deliberately offensive is definitely not the aim as if the article and editors were trying to be deliberately offensive I am certain they could get depictions and the rights to use them for some of the highly offensive pictures listed above. Tivanir2 (talk) 16:20, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- I happen to think that showing a group's impressions of Muhammad (the Persians, after all, were a rather important people in history, as are the Europeans) is very germane to the topic at hand (Muhammad). It offends some people, but contains relevant, encyclopedic information (if we were to implement policies that images had to be required for understanding, as you seem to be angling for, we'd have to remove the pictures of Barack Obama, since his looks don't impart any information on what he's famous for; that would be absurd). Tivanir2 also makes some excellent points above. Is that simple enough? The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 16:59, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- Ludwigs2: You keep taking this personally, and I am not sure why. You also claim you understand policy, such as WP:CENSOR (which has been the crux of this argument) but didnt even know that it has a prohibition against using any religious reasons for censorship. When informed of that (even though you proposed the change to it at VILLAGE PUMP) you indicate that was because it changes so much - but in this respect, that isn't true either - not just was it in CENSOR when you went to Village Pump, but it was also in it a year ago,[4] a year and a half ago,[5] and via different wording two years ago.[6] You were advised multiple times to take your religiously based offense objections to the correct forum as well. I am not sure why you think that the rest of us don't know policy when you didn't even know the contents of WP:CENSOR (while personally using it well over a dozen times before its contents were pointed out to you). Please don't take it personally when people simply point out things you didn't know about. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 17:22, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- I didn't even read past the second "nigger" because that's patently false and asinine. You might as well compare those who disagree with you to Nazis as well. The reasoning behind not caring about offending someone is not the same as the reasoning behind racism - they're not even related. I also don't care that our article on Homosexuals can offend some Christians, nor do I give a shit if our article on Xenu offends Scientologists or that any X offends Y. That's not the same as dehumanizing an entire group of people based on the color of their skin. I will not discuss this further and if you continue this line of reasoning I will take it to AN/I for underhanded personal attacks, poisoning the well and general antagonism. Noformation Talk 17:34, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- @ Tivanir2: I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. You are making the argument that the only choices we have in this situation are to offend muslims or pander to them. Even if that were a remotely credible assertion (it's not, not unless you are beginning from a deeply prejudicial position in which even minimal respect shown to the faith is considered pandering), it's still an open question whether it would be better for the encyclopedia to pander on this trivial issue or to continue offending a major world religion. again, ridiculous.
- @ Robert:…
- @ Noformation: So, apparently offensiveness is a valid argument when you are the one feeling offended. interesting… allow me to force you to live by your own principles by parroting you: your feeling of offense (by your own argument) does not matter on the encyclopedia, period. if you are too offended by my otherwise reasonable argument to read it and respond rationally then your opinion simply doesn't matter, and you should probably go find another page to work on where you will not subject yourself to things that offend you. --Ludwigs2 17:59, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- @Blade: I agree with you in principle, but please note that if your primary concern is the historical and artistic significance of the images, then the images should be restricted to a section about their historical and artistic significance (as I suggested above). To put a finer point on that, these images are informative about the Persians and the Persian's particular approach to depicting Muhammad, but these pictures tell us nothing whatsoever about Muhammad himself. Scattering the images throughout the article is a gross violation of wp:WEIGHT because it drastically overplays the importance of the Persian perspective and drastically downplays the prevailing modern perspective of the faith, which is that depictions of the Prophet are proscribed. --Ludwigs2 18:06, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- Sigh. Only 2 of the 6 images are Persian. At least 2 others are from a Sunni Turkish milieu. How often do these basic facts have to be repeated, to people apparently incapable of taking anything in? Johnbod (talk) 22:59, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- ∞ evidently. Noformation Talk 23:39, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- Sigh. Only 2 of the 6 images are Persian. At least 2 others are from a Sunni Turkish milieu. How often do these basic facts have to be repeated, to people apparently incapable of taking anything in? Johnbod (talk) 22:59, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- Applying your beliefs evenly and uniformly without a single issue bias/exception would probably gain your arguments a lot more credibility. Just a thought. You may also wish to read this[7] as I think it applies not just to myself, but to others who's motives you keep calling into question. ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 18:17, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- No my arguement stems from the fact that none of the pictures are controversial on any other grounds than religious. In any other situation all of these images would be perfectly acceptable AS LONG AS they weren't of muhammad. For people that still find that unreasonable there are self imposed filters they can use to make sure they are not exposed to it. As for trivial issue it definitely cannot be assigned to that category because every group that has something it doesn't like on here will insist it be removed and cite this as a basis. That is not even a far stretch as this would garner media attention and then everyone with an axe to grind would come out of the wood work. Second nothing I have seen shows respect as respect travels both ways, and since my way says seeing images is a ok it gets trampled because someone else says NO! I get offended regularly by things I find on wikipedia but that doesn't lead me to ask for removal because offensive shouldn't be taken into account. Tivanir2 (talk) 18:43, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- @Blade: I agree with you in principle, but please note that if your primary concern is the historical and artistic significance of the images, then the images should be restricted to a section about their historical and artistic significance (as I suggested above). To put a finer point on that, these images are informative about the Persians and the Persian's particular approach to depicting Muhammad, but these pictures tell us nothing whatsoever about Muhammad himself. Scattering the images throughout the article is a gross violation of wp:WEIGHT because it drastically overplays the importance of the Persian perspective and drastically downplays the prevailing modern perspective of the faith, which is that depictions of the Prophet are proscribed. --Ludwigs2 18:06, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- Robert: can you not, for one single solitary post, avoid attacking me? for someone with as much experience on project as you have, you are 'absolutely clueless about wp:NPA. I'm beginning to get the idea that you are deliberately trolling me just to try to make me angry. is that the truth? Answer carefully, because your last 20 posts to me have all contained efforts at character assassination, and that that is fairly damning evidence against you.
- Tivanir2: you are just compounding the problems of your previous argument. all you've done is cross out one word and generalize the same insupportable dichotomy - "...only choices we have in this situation are to offend
muslimsreligions or pander to them..." - and that's not an improvement. I still assert that you can only make such an extreme dichotomy from a position of deep prejudice, in which you refuse to allow religions even one iota of respect (for personal reasons of your own, assumedly). that's not acceptable on a collaborative project. This is clearly a trivial issue except to the extent that it's been magnified by absolutist thinking, and you've offered no evidence to the contrary; what happens in the real world is irrelevant to our discussion; whatever you personally find offensive is certainly something you are free to bring up, and if you have the same grounding for offense that the Islamic proscription against depictions of the prophet provides, then I'd even support you. honestly you don't have an argument here. --Ludwigs2 19:34, 1 November 2011 (UTC)- Actually I have no prejudice towards people, though I hold a very strong opinion on what other people attempt to force me to do. I don't expect anyone to show my own religion (Asatru Shamanism) respect or to not offend it. I have heard from multiple places and sources everything about my religion being either a fake religion or cult simply because it is not mainstream. Instead you are personally attacking me trying to ascribe values that don't exist, which would lead back to your own quote of don't attack editors. I tend to have respect for all religions (I always try to ensure I don't disturb someone during religious observence for example regardless of religion) but I will not ever willingly back down when one group decides it wants to ban something from common grounds especially when that group HAS A WAY TO NOT OBSERVE THE OFFENDABLE MATERIAL. That being said when is the RfC? I would like to put an end to merry go round with 5 different rehashes of the same think of the children mentality. If there is a reason to actually remove the image (other than a religious edict) then I am all for it and have even identified one though it was previously identified. Otherwise I will simply continue to link WP:NOTCENSORED for the remainder, since apparently what you wish is WP:NOTCENSORED with the footnote of unless it offends enough people. I also find it hilarious you quote WP:NPA then proceed to do it against myself not more than 5 lines later. Tivanir2 (talk) 19:47, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- Ludwigs2: If you truly feel that way, even though I think it unsupportive, go to AN/I or start an RfC/U. I haven't attacked you once. I just want to know why you don't apply your interpretation of policy uniformly and why the policy changes the rest of us think are necessary for your summary removal request for religious based objections/beliefs haven't been taken to the appropriate forum. Claiming it's an attack because you refuse to answer (or use the correct forum to address policy changes, or refuse to apply your policy interpretation uniformly) is ludicrous in light of there not being any attack against you. Numerous times when someone disagrees with you, you claim they are attacking you. As others have also asked, please stop assigning incorrect motives to my actions. ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 19:53, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- Tivanir2: you are just compounding the problems of your previous argument. all you've done is cross out one word and generalize the same insupportable dichotomy - "...only choices we have in this situation are to offend
- @ Tivanir2:I'm sorry if you took this personally - not my intent. To my way of viewing things one can easily hold a prejudice without being prejudiced. It's usually just a matter of not having thought things through. That's what I feel has happened here: you have gotten yourself into a mental box where you feel you are forced to offend Muslims by showing these images because you think not showing these images is pandering. What I have been saying all along is that these images are not by any stretch of the imagination necessary to the article; using them or not using them is a choice we get to make, and choosing not to use them is not 'pandering'. I feel you're too wrapped up in the conflict here - you've got your mind set on keeping these images solely because people oppose them, and not because of any intrinsic value of the images, and that is something that you should reconsider.
- @ No, it's not that big of an issue for me. Mostly I'm pointing it out as a matter of due diligence, so that anyone can see that I tried to encourage civility on the page. I'm perfectly happy allowing you to lay out example after example of bad faith editing. That is your choice. --Ludwigs2 15:47, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- So in other words you decide to tell me you don't want to offend me retread believing me to be prejudice and decide to try to justify the position? The reason I consider it pandering to them is simply because the individuals in question are able to edit out the images either through software or they can follow the FAQ to disable them. This solves the issue. Instead demanding the images be removed is designed solely to placate a group of people so it is in a nutshell to censor for the benefit of a group. I am much less wrapped up into the argument than you think since I have already pointed out an image for deletion because it no longer belongs. To try to summarily remove all issues is simple to make a group happy which falls under WP:NOTCENSORED. Tivanir2 (talk) 22:48, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
Noformation, wrt "we should not consider offense when determining article content," in a situation where two images are of roughly equal educational merit and relevance, but one is offensive to large numbers of readers and the other is not, should we lean toward including the inoffensive image? --Anthonyhcole (talk) 13:00, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- Why is that an either/or question? You have two images, both accepted as having educational merit. Why not include both? Resolute 14:28, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- Let's assume we only need one. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 15:16, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- Let's not. This is a talk page for Muhammad, not WP:IUP. We're dealing with a concrete, clearly-defined situation here, don't sidetrack this into the abstract what-if? realm. Tarc (talk) 15:34, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- The only way that the community would include include one and not the other would be if they hold the exact same value. Otherwise even if they are slightly different they bring separate value to the table, and I have to agree that both would be included. That is why above I stated we should have the current age images (i.e. muhammad depicted as a flame or veiled or whatnot) as well as the earlier century images which by itself would show people a timeline of slowly transforming the preference to muhammad not being depicted. Right now working on hunting down some images not copy written but there are some slight issues with searching here so I will need to wait until I get home unless someone else can pick them up. Don't get me wrong there are images that should be removed but that is because sections were removed and they no longer make any sense what so ever. Tivanir2 (talk) 15:45, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- Anthonyhcole: I might almost agree with you if it weren't for various other factors. For instance, a picture of a veiled Muhammad, while educational and historical, does not portray the educational and historical value of a non-veiled image. Thus, there is a difference in what the images provide. "Here's a picture of a car from the 1920's" "Here's a picture of the inside of the engine compartment of that car from the 1920's (showing the engine and other workings)." Both portray the car. Each provide entirely different context. Both provide entirely different educational and historical value. If it was simply "Here's a picture of a car, right side view" or "Here's a picture of the car - another right side view" (or even "left side view" for a car with no notable differences on the "mirror" side) I'd agree. As for the other pictures, it's kinda like "Here's a 1957 Chevy Belair" and "Here's a 1963 Chevy Belair" and "Here's a 2010 Chevy Impala" - so even though they are all "unveiled", and of the same topic (Chevy Impala line (ie: Belair, Biscayne, Impala)), they provide different values that one alone cannot impart. ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 16:06, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- Tivanir2: There's an image already uploaded to WP or WM which is referenced in one of the conversations above (yesterday). I was going to write a proposal/RfC-ish thing below, but took the night off last night. I'll get to it in a few hours. ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 16:06, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- Robert, this is untrue. any picture (veiled or unveiled) is only valuable as a historic or artistic element. the unveiled picture does not depict Muhammad any more clearly since neither picture is an accurate depiction of Muhammad. You continue to push this same point of bad reasoning over and over, but sheer repetition does not make the reasoning any better. --Ludwigs2 16:33, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- The only way that the community would include include one and not the other would be if they hold the exact same value. Otherwise even if they are slightly different they bring separate value to the table, and I have to agree that both would be included. That is why above I stated we should have the current age images (i.e. muhammad depicted as a flame or veiled or whatnot) as well as the earlier century images which by itself would show people a timeline of slowly transforming the preference to muhammad not being depicted. Right now working on hunting down some images not copy written but there are some slight issues with searching here so I will need to wait until I get home unless someone else can pick them up. Don't get me wrong there are images that should be removed but that is because sections were removed and they no longer make any sense what so ever. Tivanir2 (talk) 15:45, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- Let's not. This is a talk page for Muhammad, not WP:IUP. We're dealing with a concrete, clearly-defined situation here, don't sidetrack this into the abstract what-if? realm. Tarc (talk) 15:34, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- Let's assume we only need one. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 15:16, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- I don't mind if you guys attack my reasoning - that's not a personal attack. I mind when you attack my character. You'll notice that I did not question Robert's character in this post, only the quality of his reasoning, and only because of the exceptional number of times I've had to correct this particular point. If you think this is a personal attack, all you need to do is explain how, and I'll retract it. but I see no reason to retract a critique of poor reasoning. --Ludwigs2 17:00, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- One correction, to perhaps help you understand the responses. You haven't corrected my reasoning - neither of us stated fact. I stated my opinion. You've stated an opposing opinion. One numerous of us think has no merit. Nonetheless, this is still a matter of opinions and perceptions. Mine (like my actions on hundreds of pages covering numerous religions, irreligions and sub-topics) carries no bias for or against any religious beliefs (mine or others). I'm not saying yours or anyone else's does - I am saying mine does not. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 17:10, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- Robert: I don't object to your casting my statement as an opinion, but it is an opinion based in a rational assessment of the images. As I have said ad nauseum the images - at best - show artistic representations of the prophet from various historical periods. They have no factual value (they are not depictions of the historical Muhammad or his acts), the article currently does not discuss the art history issue in any great detail, so therefore the pictures add little to no educational value to the article. Your opinion, by contrast, is not based in anything; you simply assert that the images have value and avoid any detailed discussion of the matter. That is bad reasoning. I'm sorry if you don't recognize it as such, but you are making a positive claim (that the images have value) but you consistently fail to explain or justify that position as anything other than mere opinion.
- One correction, to perhaps help you understand the responses. You haven't corrected my reasoning - neither of us stated fact. I stated my opinion. You've stated an opposing opinion. One numerous of us think has no merit. Nonetheless, this is still a matter of opinions and perceptions. Mine (like my actions on hundreds of pages covering numerous religions, irreligions and sub-topics) carries no bias for or against any religious beliefs (mine or others). I'm not saying yours or anyone else's does - I am saying mine does not. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 17:10, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- I don't mind if you guys attack my reasoning - that's not a personal attack. I mind when you attack my character. You'll notice that I did not question Robert's character in this post, only the quality of his reasoning, and only because of the exceptional number of times I've had to correct this particular point. If you think this is a personal attack, all you need to do is explain how, and I'll retract it. but I see no reason to retract a critique of poor reasoning. --Ludwigs2 17:00, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- You are stuck in the subjectivity fallacy (Kohlberg stage 3) in which you assert that all opinions are equally subjective and deny all reasoning which might evaluate between them objectively. That is not an acceptable way to write an encyclopedia (it's the kind of 'fringe theorist' logic which asserts that some funky theorem is just as good as anything science has to offer). I respect your opinion, mind you, but you have no rational grounds for asserting your opinion (that you've offered, anyway) that can match the rational grounds that lie behind my opinion; comparatively speaking, your logic is flawed. --Ludwigs2 18:18, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- Anthony, you offer no reason why I should be limited to the choice of only one image. The question is invalid. Resolute 16:39, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- Tarc's right. My question was too meta for this discussion. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 16:48, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- Resolute: that's a red herring - how many images the article has is a question of balance. We don't overload articles with excess imagery (wikipedia is not a child's picture book). The real question Anthony is asking (allow me to generalize) is this:
- we've decided we're going to have X pictures in the article
- we have available Y images to choose from (where Y is very much greater than X)
- all of the images have equal 'educational' value for the purpose
- should we choose the images that offend people or the images that don't? --Ludwigs2 16:54, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- Ludwigs2: let me answer that last question ("should we... offend...") The answer is here, last few lines. Which brings us back to "Suggestions to change policy should be brought to the correct venue". Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 17:17, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- Ludwigs2: You wrote "...how many images the article has is a question of balance..." - in which I fully 110% agree. Hence one of the additions (dunno if I mentioned it here or on another talk page) to my RfC proposal including weighing quantity and representativeness in order to determine whether we thought we needed more images or less images or whether the current amount was suitable. Ironically though, our almost singular point of agreement is entirely contrary and contradictory to suggestions that all images be removed. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 17:23, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- Point 1: ridiculous abuse of policy. see wp:IAR.
- Point 2: you are avoiding the question. Even if we decide to add more images, there will still be any number of images available with the same educational value that do not offend anyone. So again: why do you want to choose an offensive image over a non-offensive image, if there is no other difference between them? --Ludwigs2 18:21, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- That there is "no difference" is an imaginary construct of your own fevered creation. We have images, we use images. Religious views towards image usage are not applicable to en.wiki. Tarc (talk) 18:35, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- Ludwigs2: Really, please stop using IAR to push your point of view, disagreed upon by most, that we should weigh religious objections[8] or single article objections[9] into determining article content. Again, I repeat "Suggestions to change policy should be brought to the correct venue." Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 18:41, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- Robert: stop abusing the rules, and I will no longer have to IAR them. fair enough? --Ludwigs2 19:56, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- Please don't accuse me of abusing the rules you want us to apply IAR to. It gets tiring. It's (what I am doing is) actually called "applying the rules uniformly". ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 20:00, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- IAR is not a policy meant to be enforced unilaterally, it still needs consensus and it's usually reserved for uncontentious issues and most people would agree with. You can't just invoke it to push a POV. Our censorship policy is clear regarding religious considerations, no one is abusing the rules by enforcing them. Noformation Talk 20:04, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- Excuse me for being a bit thick on this but WP:IAR says to remove rules to make it better. How is removing images about the subject in question better? Tivanir2 (talk) 20:21, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- IAR is precisely the remedy to apply when editors are abusing rules (or if your prefer, applying rules improperly to the detriment of the encyclopedia). You are collectively applying a rule in a such a way that the encyclopedia is offending its readers for no clear reason or meaningful gain; that is detrimental to the encyclopedia, since it makes wikipedia look insensitive and prejudiced and causes endless reams of talk page conflict. And yes, I can invoke it unilaterally, and will continue to do so until such a time as it is made clear that there is a valid reason for offending readers with these images.
- Please don't accuse me of abusing the rules you want us to apply IAR to. It gets tiring. It's (what I am doing is) actually called "applying the rules uniformly". ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 20:00, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- Robert: stop abusing the rules, and I will no longer have to IAR them. fair enough? --Ludwigs2 19:56, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- Resolute: that's a red herring - how many images the article has is a question of balance. We don't overload articles with excess imagery (wikipedia is not a child's picture book). The real question Anthony is asking (allow me to generalize) is this:
- Tarc's right. My question was too meta for this discussion. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 16:48, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- Anthony, you offer no reason why I should be limited to the choice of only one image. The question is invalid. Resolute 16:39, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- Some editor added a moronic caveat to NOTCENSORED, you guys are jumping on it to push a distinct POV in a tremendously tendentious way - not good. Until I get a chance to fix the damage done to NOTCENSORED I will continue to use IAR in an effort to fix the damage you have collectively done here.
- Your best bet in this situation is to stop pushing the NOTCENSORED button (which I will continue to IAR until the situation changes, so that will get none of us anywhere), and start doing your homework. Make a convincing argument that the images have a specific value so that NOTCENSORED is unambiguously applicable. If your argument is good the images will stay; if your arguments are bad the images will be removed. Cut the bureaucratic codswallop and justify the use of the images, or give it up. --Ludwigs2 21:44, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- Honestly, at this point you should either put up or shut up, if you think editors are abusing policy then file the appropriate complaint so it can be decided on once and for all. Your presence in this discussion is verging on becoming a net negative, if it isn't there already; you can't just scream "FOUL! FOUL! FOUL!" all day. Tarc (talk) 21:52, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- But the fact of the matter is they aren't applying rules improperly WP:NOTCENSORED goes over the fact there is things on this website that most likely will cause offense and if that is a problem the individual needs to find ways of dealing with it. As for the value of the images they are similar to the value you see in any other historical biography that exists on this encyclopedia. Assuming we are causing damage for no reason at all is dealing in bad faith. As a western centric encyclopedia, when reading a biography, the reader should be expecting to see images in the article as every article that is similar and has any images (accurate or not) includes them to help the reader visually. As stated before these works aren't here to simply offend people (if that were the case you would see images, again, like the bomb hat image from the danish cartoonist) and there are work arounds to ensure anyone that would be offended can make sure they cannot see the images and therefore avoid offense. WP:NOTCENSORED reads correctly because the entire section states we don't censor for any group or anything and the least astonishment rule really doesn't apply since, as stated above, the viewer looking at a biography should expect to see pictures. Applying rules is not abusing rules, that is the reason they exist otherwise there would be anarchy which wikipedia is dead set against. Besides reading IAR it shows that the rules should be ignored when people generally agree they are getting in the way of constructive and useful editing. As for specific value why would I need to present this? What specific value do pictures of Jesus have? Moses? Any other historical personality? As for pushing a POV I was not aware it is considered pushing a POV to follow the rules, as that is what I and most of the editors are attempting to do. As for making an arguement to keep them how about making a counter arguement to remove them not already covered under NOTCENSORED? Tivanir2 (talk) 22:02, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- Tivanir2: The fact of the matter is you are applying the rules to the detriment of the encyclopedia. that is grounds for IAR.
- I have to say, based on your post above, you really do not understand what wikipedia is for. The one, unbreakable principle of Wikipedia is that we are supposed to be writing a reputable encyclopedia; anything which gets in the way of that is dispensable. to whit:
- Notcensored is not (as you suggest) intended to tell people to 'deal with it'; notcensored is to allow is to include material that is necessary but controversial. Wikipedia is not some bully-project that says "I'm going to say whatever I feel like, and you can sod off if you don't like it."
- Wikipedia is not intended to be a 'western-centric' encyclopedia, and that certainly does not mean that we are allowed to offend eastern topics with impunity.
- The fact that the images are not intended to offend people has no bearing on the fact that they do offend people; actions count, intentions are only good for excuses.
- The rest of your arguments are entirely specious. it's not the value of the image in isolation, but the value of the image with respect to the offense it causes. No one is offended by the Jesus and Moses images, so the balance is well in favor of including the images; millions of people are offended by the Muhammad images, so some strong rationale for keeping them is required, otherwise the balance goes to removing them. You have no strong rationale - 'visual aids' is not a strong rationale; art historical importance is not a strong rationaler (on this article, anyway). if there are many similar images that we can use which do not cause offense, why are we using the ones which do cause offense? you have no rationale for that.
- I have to say, based on your post above, you really do not understand what wikipedia is for. The one, unbreakable principle of Wikipedia is that we are supposed to be writing a reputable encyclopedia; anything which gets in the way of that is dispensable. to whit:
- Inclusion of these images, whether intentionally or not, damages the reputation of the encyclopedia. The burden of proof is on you (as their defender) to show that they are valuable enough to the article justify the problems that we all know they create. It's clear to me that you cannot demonstrate any real value - if you could, you'd have done so long ago and I would have given in - so why don't you just admit you can't provide any and get past it.
- @Tarc: I don't see a need to file administrative action at this point; I still feel we can work this out through discussion. if you have a need to go administrative, please feel free. As I have said previously, I am open to wp:MedCab if you think it will help us get past this sticking point. --Ludwigs2 23:27, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
Ludwigs, this is the core of your flawed standpoint; there is nothing to work out, there is only a negligible sticking point in that you do not accept the status quo. You cannot and will not negotiate your way into removing images from this article. I cannot emphasize enough how this simply Will. Not. Happen. Your only recourse is to go elsewhere, where I am quite confident that the case will only come down resoundingly against you, as swit as the ArbCom denial was. We do not censor images for the sake of fundamentalist appeasement. There cannot be a more iron-clad statement than that. Tarc (talk) 23:55, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- Again, policy is clear here and you can invoke IAR all you want but without a consensus for your position, these images will not be removed. You keep going on about offending people but what you don't get it that is doesn't matter, policy on religious considerations is unambiguous and these images will not likely be removed now or ever. You have passed WP:TE at this point, either drop it or let's take it to AN/I, because it's clear that you will not let up on this point. Noformation Talk 00:16, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- Again (and again), You can be as adamant and uncollaborative as you like, and all that does is affirm (and reaffirm) that there are drastic wp:page ownership issues here. I've been very clear about my position, about the problem that I see on this page, and even about what you can do to relieve my concerns or resolve the problem. you choose to ignore those overtures and make rigid, hostile declamations to the effect that "these images will not now or ever be removed", violating a half dozen policies every time you do it. If this is going to boil down to a to sheer, blind stubbornness on your part then we will end up in arbitration. That's fine with me. would you like to open the case now, or shall we continue on a more collaborative tone? --Ludwigs2 00:30, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- Ok, just for clarity sake. Almost everyone disagreeing with you and you insisting you are correct and that you will continue until you get your way is an example of all of us violating WP:OWN? Please tell me that isn't what you just said. And if you think that the stubbornness from so many of us is grounds for opening a case, then by all means! Go right ahead. Otherwise, go change policy (or attempt to). Just as a side note, I've got days of diffs to go through (from the last year, plus 67 more offline in a text file) before I'd be anywhere near filing anything... maybe you'll beat me to it? I haven't bothered really, because sanctions should be preventative... but you're back to baseless accusations and allegations - as well as walls of text repeating you'll continue instead of using the correct venue. So, please, go file some action, whether against us, or to get WP:CENSOR changed, or to get a special exclusion for this article or whatever. Or heck, keep going on your repeatrants here - but stop accusing us of nonsense. From now on, I'm just citing policy back at you. No other effort seems worth it (except the filing I'm preparing and trying my damnedest not to file). ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 00:42, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- I have the AN/I report written and waiting to go, but collaboration is obviously what I'm sure we all prefer. However, we cannot collaborate if you keep pushing the point that images should be removed on the grounds that it offends a religious belief. Furthermore, it is not page ownership to assert that we will not IAR at your behest and ignore WP:NOTCENSORED. So long as that policy is written as is, this page will have depictions of Muhammad, that's not me owning the page, that's pointing out the most likely scenario. So what is it, will you drop the religious offense argument and collaborate otherwise or not? Noformation Talk 00:43, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- Again (and again), You can be as adamant and uncollaborative as you like, and all that does is affirm (and reaffirm) that there are drastic wp:page ownership issues here. I've been very clear about my position, about the problem that I see on this page, and even about what you can do to relieve my concerns or resolve the problem. you choose to ignore those overtures and make rigid, hostile declamations to the effect that "these images will not now or ever be removed", violating a half dozen policies every time you do it. If this is going to boil down to a to sheer, blind stubbornness on your part then we will end up in arbitration. That's fine with me. would you like to open the case now, or shall we continue on a more collaborative tone? --Ludwigs2 00:30, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- Nice third personal attack in two days. The simple fact we are left to contend with is that a religious groups wants is no reason to change anything in this wikipedia. We don't do it for the mormons, catholics, scientologists or any other group and most likely we won't do it here. I am all for adding additional pictures but to try to wipe the slate of all pictures is pushing the POV that religious rights trump editing of an article. NOTCENSORED's intention isn't to say "sod off" it is a way of saying this might offend you and we apologize but being offended isn't a rationale for editing something. Once again we arrive back at think of the children argument. The community has provided tools to avoid this (FAQ) or help (add-ons) if people really find it that troublesome. This is sufficient as someones offense doesn't trump my right to learn about how muhammad is perceived in the Islamic community. Tivanir2 (talk) 00:43, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
Keep in mind we've had hundreds (if not more) requests to remove these images on religious grounds. If we're counting numbers, it's not us against "him" it's us against very large number of people. Just sayin'. Rklawton (talk) 00:45, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- It is a very large number of people against another very large number of people. Fortunately for Wikipedia (and freedom of information), policy does not support removing material on these grounds. Resolute 00:50, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- Oddly enough, the Koran doesn't support removing it either, though Islamic courts have ruled against creating/displaying such images anyway. Rklawton (talk) 00:53, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- Indeed. Fortunately, we are able to educate our reader, and share with them the fact that not only has such imagery not been forbidden, but that followers if Islam themselves have created images, both fully rendered and with Muhammad's face obscured. Free learning for everyone! Resolute 00:56, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- Oddly enough, the Koran doesn't support removing it either, though Islamic courts have ruled against creating/displaying such images anyway. Rklawton (talk) 00:53, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)Just a few points ;-)
- Numbers don't matter - and we know that - but even if they did...
- We are discussing policy, which is against removing content (including images) due to religious beliefs - he is the vast minority in insisting we should violate policy on just one specific article (even though a bunch more that fit such criteria have been pointed out).
- Do you really count single purpose, single edit (only to complain) editors who ask us to violate policy, especially (1) in light of the fact that in reality there is no religious prohibition to our actions, (2) they came here because of a news item and chose to violate their own faith, (3) this page is already a special case exception that has instructions on how not to view the images
- How much weight to we give single purpose single edit accounts mandating we follow religious dictates they aren't even applying properly? Just curious. Do we count them?
- And finally, the important one, as you know... the validity of arguments (since we !vote on things here) can be used to weigh whether they are considered - and currently, due to policy, "my religion forbids you (no it doesnt) from showing images of Muhammad" is not rationale that gets considered under policy - which brings us back to the numerous suggestions that Ludwigs2 use the correct venue.
- All told, that still leaves him in the minority. ;-) ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 00:54, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- Regarding, "If this is going to boil down to a to sheer, blind stubbornness on your part then we will end up in arbitration", didn't you already stumble at that dance, Ludwigs? As I said, I have no call to start a case, since the status quo is fine, and cannot change as a result of your numerous discussion. I repeat; CAN NOT, as content removal based on outside religious pressure would itself be a policy violation. You feel it breaks policy to KEEP the images here, but that view has gathered precious little support around here. So what we have is a disagreement over application of policy. Since your POV is in the minority, it is a literal impossibility for you to achieve what you want via article talk page discussion. Why is that so hard to understand and accept? All that dragging this on and on, in new sup-topic after new sub-topic, accomplishes is create more heat and more rancor.
- So once again, you are cordially invited to stop. There is nothing to be gained by dragging this out in this page. I cannot be any clearer than this. Tarc (talk) 01:09, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- (e/c)Rklawton: as I count it there are currently roughly equal numbers of editors on each side of this dispute (Me, Anthony, hans, and a couple of less vocal editors arguing against the images; Resolute, Robert, Tarc, and Kww, Nof, and Tav arguing for them). there is a strong tendency on the other side to personalize the issue, which is why they always talk as though I were in this alone. The hundreds of others are a definite plus, but this dispute is more balanced than they care to admit.
- Robert: the violation of wp:OWN comes from the statements by Tarc, Nofo and others that the pictures will never be removed. There is no room for reason or discussion, no possibility in their minds that that anything other than the current version will exist: They effectively reject wp:consensus discussion as being against policy. Frankly, I have not seen such a clear and determined example of page ownership on any article I've ever worked (except, perhaps, cold fusion). Ownership is not stubbornness (which all of us have in spades); ownership trying to control a page to dictate its content, which I can't possibly be guilty of since (a) this issue is nowhere near my preferred resolution, and (b) I have offered several compromise positions which have been roundly rejected. I'm afraid wp:OWN is something that you guys are just going to have to… well… own.
- Nofo: If you feel an ANI report is required, please don't let me stop you. I'll be curious to see what you write. On the other hand, if you actually do prefer collaboration, then you are going to have to ditch that "the images will never change" mindset - collaboration is impossible when one side refuses to budge even an inch. Also, you've misunderstood IAR; it is precisely your misuse of NOTCENSORED that is being IARed because it is damaging to the reputation of the encyclopedia, and that is not going to change just because you don't like it. So long as you continue to misuse NOTCENSORED I will continue to IAR it. Your best bet (as I keep saying) is to make a convincing argument that you are not misusing NOTCENSORED.
- To be clear, I meant that this article will not be free of depictions, not that things can never change. Images can change, the amount can change, but there will likely always be images here and there will definitely not be change based on religious considerations - here or anywhere else on WP. Noformation Talk 01:29, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- Nofo: If you feel an ANI report is required, please don't let me stop you. I'll be curious to see what you write. On the other hand, if you actually do prefer collaboration, then you are going to have to ditch that "the images will never change" mindset - collaboration is impossible when one side refuses to budge even an inch. Also, you've misunderstood IAR; it is precisely your misuse of NOTCENSORED that is being IARed because it is damaging to the reputation of the encyclopedia, and that is not going to change just because you don't like it. So long as you continue to misuse NOTCENSORED I will continue to IAR it. Your best bet (as I keep saying) is to make a convincing argument that you are not misusing NOTCENSORED.
- But again, you just can't make a convincing argument that you're using NOTCENSORED correctly, because you're clearly not. All you have is a 'the rules must be followed' approach that doesn't sit well with the project's principles.
- Robert: that is most decidedly not what NOTCENSORED says, nor what it was ever meant to say. You see now why I need to invoke IAR. --Ludwigs2 01:19, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- Ludwigs2: I am not sure how you've forgotten this already, but that is exactly what WP:CENSOR says. And I quote: "Wikipedia will not remove content because of the internal bylaws of some organizations that forbid information about the organization to be displayed online. Any rules that forbid members of a given organization, fraternity, or religion to show a name or image *do not apply to Wikipedia* because Wikipedia is not a member of those organizations." - so, again, please use the correct venue. ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 06:36, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- Robert: since we're whispeing… Notcensored was intended to protect necessary information, not controversial trivia. you're misuse of it here requires IAR here. --Ludwigs2 06:47, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- Ludwigs: Depictions of the subject of the article have never been considered trivia anywhere on Wikipedia, and you have made your true motivations clear (not offending/violating religious beliefs).[10][11][12] That requires taking it up at the correct venue. Maybe this time you wont have the overwhelming rejection of your argument that you had last time.[13]ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 07:01, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- Robert - save it for ANI. we've hashed this silliness out enough here for the time being. --Ludwigs2 12:47, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- Ludwigs: Depictions of the subject of the article have never been considered trivia anywhere on Wikipedia, and you have made your true motivations clear (not offending/violating religious beliefs).[10][11][12] That requires taking it up at the correct venue. Maybe this time you wont have the overwhelming rejection of your argument that you had last time.[13]ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 07:01, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- Robert: since we're whispeing… Notcensored was intended to protect necessary information, not controversial trivia. you're misuse of it here requires IAR here. --Ludwigs2 06:47, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- Ludwigs2: I am not sure how you've forgotten this already, but that is exactly what WP:CENSOR says. And I quote: "Wikipedia will not remove content because of the internal bylaws of some organizations that forbid information about the organization to be displayed online. Any rules that forbid members of a given organization, fraternity, or religion to show a name or image *do not apply to Wikipedia* because Wikipedia is not a member of those organizations." - so, again, please use the correct venue. ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 06:36, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- Robert: that is most decidedly not what NOTCENSORED says, nor what it was ever meant to say. You see now why I need to invoke IAR. --Ludwigs2 01:19, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
I decided to file the AN/I without waiting because after going over the whole page again I'm sorry to say that I don't think this can be resolved without intervention. You can find the report here Noformation Talk 01:16, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
Image Proposal (Addition/Replacement)
Hello all, as Tivanir2 pointed out above,[14] there is no picture of a veiled or flame Muhammad in the article. I'd suggest that we (a) add one, or (b) replace an image of the same artistic origin with such. Jayen466 pointed out[15] this image (File:Siyer-i Nebi 151b.jpg) above, which seems it may be suitable (and is apparently PD). Preferably, a newer image of this sort would be prefered, as Tivanir[16] and others[17] noted - so feel free to find & propose a better suited image of this type (ie: newer). Thus I propose the following (please feel free to show strong support, support, weak support, object to either, or object to both, or comment or whatever):
There you have it... !votes above below, anyone? Discussions and such below perhaps? ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 17:02, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- Comment Yet again, this is simply untrue. The Kashmir image shows the Prophet wholly as a flame (top left), and the one near it with a veil. Johnbod (talk) 17:57, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- You are correct. It took (for me) pulling up the full image of each to realize that though. Side note: "Yet again"? ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 18:01, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
!Votes
Add this image to the article:
- Very Weak(18:07, 2 November 2011 (UTC)) Support add or weak replace (sans better suited more recent image) ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 17:02, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- Weak for the same reasons as as RobertMfromLI 18:26, 2 November 2011 (UTC)Support makes perfect sense to add in, as this is very frequently how he is depcited. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 17:31, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
Replace one of the similar (to the other) Persian images with this image:
Weak SupportOppose(18:07, 2 November 2011 (UTC)) add or weak replace (sans better suited more recent image) ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 17:02, 2 November 2011 (UTC)- Oppose - see below, if we are all to vote twice! Johnbod (talk) 18:03, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
Do not add this or similar recent image (please provide reasons):
- Support to Neutral
Oppose-should have a suitable common depiction in this articleROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 17:02, 2 November 2011 (UTC)- As Johnbod pointed out above, apparently there are two such images. ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 18:07, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- Weak support - the proposed image existed in the article until 24 March 2011, when it was removed[18] by consensus. The conversation is archived at Talk:Muhammad/images/Archive_20#Fine then, lets get consensus here. ~Amatulić (talk) 17:49, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- Support Not very strong feelings, but the more narrative images probably illustrate the article better, as well as being rather more typical. As pointed out yet again above, this proposal is based on a complete misnomer as there is already a veiled image in the article, and a flame one. From "1595" this is hardly "recent" - three of the other images are more so, or of the same date, and the phrasing of the question is POV. Note that the proposed new image is from the Topkapi Istanbul manuscript catalogued as Hazine 1222, and the existing veiled image from a manuscript of the same work that is Hazine 1223 - I suspect these are volumes 1 & 2 (or whatever) of the same manuscript (later: yes, they are). If so to have both would be excessive. Johnbod (talk) 18:01, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
Better suited new/recent image of this type (please provide link and ensure licensing (ie: public domain, etc) is suitable):
Discussions: Image Proposal (Addition/Replacement)
I'd gladly support a more recent image if anyone can find one that's public domain or that uses a suitable copyright (CC, for instance). Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 17:02, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- I could swear I have seen that particular image in this article. I didn't notice it had gone away. It's on Commons so it's fair game to use on Wikipedia. I have fixed the link in your comment above to point to it. ~Amatulić (talk) 17:25, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- I distinctly remember it too. :-/ Thanks for the link fix. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 17:28, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- I've examined the history of this article and the talk page archives, and based on that I have to oppose adding it. See my comment in the section above. I have no objection to more flame-faced Muhammad images but that one just didn't seem to fit anywhere. ~Amatulić (talk) 17:52, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- I don't see that particular image under discussion. Can you point out a diff or something? For some... reason... that conversation got rather cluttered. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 17:57, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- If you read the section up to this diff you'll see that there's no real objection to replacing the image "Muhammad at the Ka'ba from Siyer-i Nebi" which is the one being proposed here. Ludwigs2 made the change, someone reverted it, then Qwyrxian undid the reversion. ~Amatulić (talk) 18:13, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- Much thanks. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 18:31, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- If I may be so bold and actually jump out on a limb to improve the article. Can we either add something about the black stone or remove the image associated with it? It does depict muhammad but it has no supporting info anywhere throughout the article so I was thinking either a short explanation and a link to the black stone article or taking it out and perhaps finding an alternate picture. Thoughts? Tivanir2 (talk) 19:51, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- If historically relevant to Muhammad (as opposed to Islam or such), I'd support additional content to support the image. Otherwise, I'd support image removal. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 20:06, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- I don't mind including it and it is another picture of him but if we are referencing a specific event we should at least have a line or two and a link if it is important enough to warrent a picture of the event in my mind. I can see what references I can pull for it but I haven't looked for a reference in a while so it might take some time. Tivanir2 (talk) 20:11, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- So much has been chopped from the article (such as the "Depictions" mini section that jumped to the full article)... the history is a sad tale of events in that respect. ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 20:16, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- I don't mind including it and it is another picture of him but if we are referencing a specific event we should at least have a line or two and a link if it is important enough to warrent a picture of the event in my mind. I can see what references I can pull for it but I haven't looked for a reference in a while so it might take some time. Tivanir2 (talk) 20:11, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- If historically relevant to Muhammad (as opposed to Islam or such), I'd support additional content to support the image. Otherwise, I'd support image removal. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 20:06, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- If I may be so bold and actually jump out on a limb to improve the article. Can we either add something about the black stone or remove the image associated with it? It does depict muhammad but it has no supporting info anywhere throughout the article so I was thinking either a short explanation and a link to the black stone article or taking it out and perhaps finding an alternate picture. Thoughts? Tivanir2 (talk) 19:51, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- Much thanks. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 18:31, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- If you read the section up to this diff you'll see that there's no real objection to replacing the image "Muhammad at the Ka'ba from Siyer-i Nebi" which is the one being proposed here. Ludwigs2 made the change, someone reverted it, then Qwyrxian undid the reversion. ~Amatulić (talk) 18:13, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- I don't see that particular image under discussion. Can you point out a diff or something? For some... reason... that conversation got rather cluttered. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 17:57, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- I've examined the history of this article and the talk page archives, and based on that I have to oppose adding it. See my comment in the section above. I have no objection to more flame-faced Muhammad images but that one just didn't seem to fit anywhere. ~Amatulić (talk) 17:52, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- I distinctly remember it too. :-/ Thanks for the link fix. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 17:28, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
Two proposals
Hello all, I have been giving this much thought in light of proposals on the table here and at AN/I. Here's what I've come up with as the only two proposals I think are valid and properly address these issues uniformly across Wikipedia.
- There are various contributors who believe that due to the fact these images are not pictures or portraits of Muhammad (and are only visual depictions made years later) that they bring no historical, artistic, societal or educational worth to this article. Assuming that (as claimed) none of such belief is being biased by a religious perspective, then I propose the appropriate thing to do is to start a Community Wide RfC that addresses such an issue in regards to Muhammad, Jesus, Moses, Josiah, Adam_and_Eve, John_the_Baptist, Mary_(mother_of_Jesus) (and the countless others like them) using such justifications. Anything else, such as picking a single article, especially in light of the fact that it has been (again) pointed out that such issues exist many places and need to be dealt with, would lead at least me to believe there is some bias affecting such interpretations of image worth.
- If anyone does indeed find in their heart and mind that their objections are solely towards these images due to religiously based offense (or unduly influenced due to that), I propose we formulate something for Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy) to address changing policies to include religious objection/offense as grounds for content removal.
Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 14:54, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- WP:IUP says images should increase readers' understanding of the subject matter, but many (most?) articles contain images that may illustrate the topic in some way, may be
relevantrelated (see the lead image of Pain or second image in Economic inequality), but can't be said to increase readers' understanding in any significant way. This disparity between policy and practice needs to be addressed.
- I generally see no harm, in fact I like artists impressions of historical events or images that symbolise abstract concepts but don't add to the readers' understanding. I believe, however, they don't belong in articles when they do harm or when readers find them offensive. That is, I'd like to see WP:IUP amended to allow such images, but not when they are offensive, harmful or, of course, contrary to other policies.
- Do the images of Muhammad here or of Jesus at Jesus fall into the category of
relevantrelated, illustrative but add nothing to understanding of the article topic? I think most do. But I don't see the point of arguing their merits on that ground until image use policy with regard to such images in general has been clarified. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 05:39, 4 November 2011 (UTC) I was using "relevant" where I meant "related". --Anthonyhcole (talk) 04:28, 7 November 2011 (UTC)- I think I have a better set of RfC proposals. I think they will be ready to post tomorrow. I'll let you know. The biggest issue seems to be a divide over the educational value. No, I'm not going to start that debate either - I'm simply pointing out that I don't think there's an intent to ignore IUP. I simply think there are various camps on what worth (in that respect) the images impart. And I suspect that will be our biggest stumbling block. If we all agreed either way (not of value or of value), the images would simply remain with minor complaints - or would all be removed. Alas, not the case. I'll send you a message tomorrow if I manage to finish my new proposal. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 05:50, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
- Cool. On this, it seems to me there are degrees of image usefulness
- misleading or harmful
- useless - no relation to the topic
- related to the topic but adds nothing to the readers' understanding of the article or section
- adds to the readers' understanding of the article or section
- adds enough to the readers' understanding of the article or section to justify the space it takes up (related, educational and WP:DUE)
- --Anthonyhcole (talk) 06:56, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
- I would also add "harmful" -- where an image conveys wrong information about an event. Wiqi(55) 07:13, 4 November 2011 (UTC).
- I guess that belongs at the top. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 07:41, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
- On "misleading or harmful" we run back into the problem of the numerous other articles I've presented. My interpretation of such would thus be determined by the way the images are used. As a for instance, the images here are dated and labeled with "Depictions of..." making it clear they were made long after Muhammad's death and are simply depictions - thus I don't find their use (which is what I think the valid criteria) misleading or harmful. Ironically, some of the images on the other articles I cited are not being given such care - something I think should be rectified (and intend on addressing if policy will allow it).
- On the last one - it is hard to judge how much understanding it will give to a certain reader. As a for instance, 10 or so years ago (+/- a few years), a study was done in Baltimore, MD that showed over 1/3 of the adult population was functionally illiterate. Inotherwords, they can read, but at a 6th grade level or less (if I recall the study correctly). I'd bet that pictures (properly labeled) would serve them very well and add a greater understanding than say for someone who wasn't pictorially oriented. Then there are simply those who are pictorially oriented, and those who consume text and pictures with equal voracity (such as I, who read at decently over 100 pages an hour but love pictorial representations).
- On the rest, I think the three of us agree - the problem though (which is what I was trying to point out above) is not our agreement or disagreement on those points. The problem is determining what others feel on the matter. Let's say (hypothetically) Anthony isn't big for pictures and is more textually oriented - and that Wiqi and I are very pictorially oriented. It would be very difficult for Wiqi and I to convey the worth of the images because it is simply something Anthony cannot perceive in them. Thus, we run in circles, round and round. Now, there is another side to the coin, which is cited someplace in WP:SIZE I think, where apparently studies show that breaking up large blocks of text help enable readers to better follow the text (ie: nothing to do with whether they appreciate the pictorial representations - simply that breaking up the text with them makes it easier to follow/read the text). And sadly, I think all of that brings us back to heated debates on the worth of any images. :-/ ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 16:07, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
- That they improve readability is not, in my mind, a good reason to include controversial pictures. We're trying to define the conditions necessary to justify inclusion of a controversial image. (Just thinking out loud.) We agree truly gratuitous is inappropriate, and important content is appropriate. Where you draw the line between the two is the problem. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 16:26, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
- As a general statement, perhaps (but even that I am against blanket application of - too much of an excuse to say, for instance lobotomize Scientology due to the massive controversy it created). But in this instance, we are talking about a religious dictate that not following generates "controversy". The basis must be analyzed, not just the end result.
- There is a difference for as long as policy states we do not adhere to such. And it clearly states such. No "may" or "should" - but a distinct and definite "will not". Leaning in that direction requires a policy change to address the solely secular policy in place. ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 17:14, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
- That they improve readability is not, in my mind, a good reason to include controversial pictures. We're trying to define the conditions necessary to justify inclusion of a controversial image. (Just thinking out loud.) We agree truly gratuitous is inappropriate, and important content is appropriate. Where you draw the line between the two is the problem. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 16:26, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
- I guess that belongs at the top. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 07:41, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
- I would also add "harmful" -- where an image conveys wrong information about an event. Wiqi(55) 07:13, 4 November 2011 (UTC).
- Cool. On this, it seems to me there are degrees of image usefulness
- I think I have a better set of RfC proposals. I think they will be ready to post tomorrow. I'll let you know. The biggest issue seems to be a divide over the educational value. No, I'm not going to start that debate either - I'm simply pointing out that I don't think there's an intent to ignore IUP. I simply think there are various camps on what worth (in that respect) the images impart. And I suspect that will be our biggest stumbling block. If we all agreed either way (not of value or of value), the images would simply remain with minor complaints - or would all be removed. Alas, not the case. I'll send you a message tomorrow if I manage to finish my new proposal. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 05:50, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
- Your opening proposal contains a syllogism: An image that is not an actual picture or image of X brings no historical, artistic, societal or educational value to an article about X. (If you think I've unfairly summarized, let me know.) I don't accept this syllogism, but lets see where it leads. Your proposal is to start an RFC to discuss this issue in the context of a very narrow list of examples. My first question: why so narrow a list? For example, the list would include Satan, Big Bang, Cretaceous–Tertiary extinction event, and Sacagawea, all of which contain images meeting the criteria that they aren't photos or portraits of the article subject. A substantial proportion of all of our history articles would need substantial removal of images. Do you disagree?--SPhilbrickT 13:18, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
- According to the various articles on the topic, there are sects of Islam (perhaps other belief systems, too) that ban all images of human likeness, does this make almost all our articles on human beings controversial and offensive? Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:34, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
An outside opinion
1. WP:NOTCENSORED does in fact prevent us from making exceptions to our policies because "it offends people". It is a bad argument for not having images--as long as there would have otherwise been images. It's clear that images belong in articles on depictions of Muhammad and on the Denmark cartoon controversy, simply as necessary illustrations of the subject, but what about here? 2. WP:NPOV does apply to this article. It's clear that, just as many Muslims are offended by images of Muhammad, a lot of people find the ban on depicting Muhammad distasteful to their notions of free speech. If that leads people to plaster images all over everywhere just to annoy the fundamentalists, we have an npov problem on our hands. On the other hand, by removing all the images we support the point of view of those who oppose images. 3. This is an article on Muhammad, not on the controversy over depictions of Muhammad. As far as I can tell the images are just there to illustrate events in Muhammad's life, not as examples of Muslim exceptions to the ban on representational images. 4. Muhammad has occasionally been depicted by Muslims, in various circumstances. This is the exception rather than the rule--only a minority of Muslims do this. In an article on the Buddha, visual depiction of the Buddha is the norm across Buddhism; this is more or less the case with Jesus as well. But if we only had Eastern Orthodox images of Jesus or Vajrayana images of the Buddha, that would be an WP:UNDUE problem. (That said, those other articles maybe haven't given so much thought to the weighting issue; images of the Buddha are slanted toward Indian Buddhism and images of Jesus are slanted toward Western European images of the Baroque and Renaissance). 5. There are ways in which we do take "sensitivity" into account as a matter of course--as long as those sensitivities are widely held in Western culture. Certain types of sexual content are viewed as too extreme; the nude on pregnancy is likely to be removed because it makes an otherwise innocuous article NSFW. Yes, I'm contradicting myself here, and I'm not sure these are good analogies. 6. Compare the Arabic article; it mostly uses aniconic imagery, with it looks like a couple actual depictions of Muhammad. Maybe it's going to far in the other direction, but it shows that what the English Wikipedia is doing with images isn't the only way. Regional biases shouldn't exist with NPOV but in practice they are inevitable (for instances, the Turkish Wikipedia being more skeptical than other wikis of the Armenian Genocide. en is just as likely to be at fault as any other version of Wikipedia. 169.231.54.14 (talk) 19:03, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
- Nicely stated. ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 19:11, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
- As has been pointed out above, there are no depictions in the Arabic article (the ones you are thinking of are of other people), but 5 in the featured Farsi article - several the same ones as here (and minus our one European image, the same number). None in the pretty short Turkish & Indonesian (bahasia) articles either. Johnbod (talk) 19:15, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
- I think the IP has summed up the situation quite nicely. And there are a lot of useful images in the Arabic article (calligraphy, relics and others) that could help us shift the balance in our article here. (Unfortunately, some of these also have templates pointing out copyright problems.)
- The difference between the Farsi vs. the Turkish, Indonesian and Arabic articles seems indicative of the fact that Iran, as a Shiite (and non-secular) country, is actually more tolerant of Muhammad imagery [19] than predominantly Sunni societies (even secular ones like Turkey). --JN466 09:53, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
- I have a similar, but lengthier opinion here if anyone is interested. If this ever comes to a RFC this would form the guts of my objections to the removal of purportedly offensive images. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:simple/complex 04:22, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
- I richly commend the above-linked essay; all but the last sentence which I vigorously oppose with every fibre of my being :), --Anthonyhcole (talk) 04:48, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
- The part about only revisiting consensus if there is an indication the community has changed its mind? That line is used to head off tendentious editing and civil POV-pushing, where essentially a single editor or small number of editors continuously bring up a topic until the patience of other editors is exhausted and they leave. Essentially, if you've raised a point three times in the same environment (policies, guidelines and community is overall unchanged), and in particular have no new arguments and the response is always the same, stop bringing it up. Ludwig2's original point about the WMF's new resolution on least surprise and its applicability to the images is a change to the community and thus merits some discussion. I don't think it's legitimate reason to remove the images, and nor do most people, and once the discussion is over it should not be raised again as a reason to remove the images unless there is a reason to (i.e. the WMF has explicitly stated that the resolution applies to the Muhammad page). We have specific policies and guidelines about editors who continually push against consensus without changing it because it exhausts the community's patience and draws people away from the act of creating an encyclopedia. They are meant to be used, not sit an a metaphorical shelf. There's a FAQ at the top of the page that addresses squarely and exactly the essential points that have generated thousands of fruitless, repetitive, pointless words of discussion with nothing new arising. I don't think it has helped anyone - not the minority of editors who support the use of images only in line with the thoughts of a single, religiously-motivated minority of the world's population and not the majority of editors who believe those religious motivations do not apply in a secular, non-Muslim educational work. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:simple/complex 13:10, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
- I richly commend the above-linked essay; all but the last sentence which I vigorously oppose with every fibre of my being :), --Anthonyhcole (talk) 04:48, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
- I have a similar, but lengthier opinion here if anyone is interested. If this ever comes to a RFC this would form the guts of my objections to the removal of purportedly offensive images. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:simple/complex 04:22, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
"Offending"?
I don't know where else to put it. I beg your pardon for starting a new section. Here is a quote from Tariq Ali, a Muslim who rather feels offended by people who consider Muslim depictions of Mohammed offending:
"In the 13th, 14th and 15th century there were Muslim painters in Herat in Afghanistan, in Persia and in parts of Turkey who painted the prophet. So the notion that this is outside the Islamic tradition is absolute rubbish, which is why I was very angry with the way that some people responded to the Danish newspaper cartoons that attacked Islam. The cartoons were racist - and should have been attacked on that basis. They should not have been attacked on the basis of an Islamic theology which outlaws depiction of Mohammed. That is nonsense." (The Socialist Review, November 2006)
Cheers, Ankimai (talk) 20:16, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
- That's a quotation worthy of inclusion in Depictions of Muhammad. And I daresay it represents the views of the majority of Muslims who know the history of their faith. ~Amatulić (talk) 20:56, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
- Wow, that's a great quote. That might also go well somewhere in the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy article or one of its related spinoffs. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 21:39, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
- Tariq Ali is a war historian and an admirable man, but not a reliable source on this topic. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 08:11, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
- Well, there is not a single Islam, just like there is not a single Christianity. The differences are as wide as those between Mormonism and Roman Catholicism. I don't think our socialist writer was particularly knowledgeable in that regard. You could argue as well that Christians should not be upset about the Quran allowing a man to have several wives, because "Christianity" allows it, too. (Aside from the theological argument, the pragmatic argument – that the cartoons could have been attacked more effectively for their racism – is of course sound.) --JN466 10:09, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
- And there is the reason why we will run into debates and controversy on this issue no matter what route we take. Remove the images, and you will have "encylopedists", those of other sects of Islam or of other religions and various others complaining. Keep them, and you'll have some of various sects of Islam and those trying to support them complaining. But, only one choice leads down a very dangerous path. That dangerous choice is removing content over religious beliefs or religious objections (again, Scientology article, anyone? Age of the Earth article (where myself and others just had to remove (yet again) the (paraphrased) "you're all wrong, it's 6,000 years old, my Bible tells me so" edit) and numerous other articles). Heck, even in the topics related to Christianity, by the time we are done removing "incidental" and controversial issue at the behest of one sect or another, there wont be anything left in the various articles. And thus, that returns me to the only two major points I've been standing fast on: (1) no special case exceptions - they will spread elsewhere until a lot of articles become special case exceptions (especially when this makes news, which depending on our final resolution, it might just), and (2) take an entirely secular view on all articles (there isn't a single article on religion that I can think of off the top of my head that isn't "objectional" or "controversial" to some or many). Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 20:43, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
- I think the only way we can make it editorially fair and policy-compliant, and be seen to be doing so, is by applying the basic NPOV rule that we represent significant viewpoints in proportion to their prominence. We have established that, broadly, Shiites do not seem to have a problem with images of Muhammad, while Sunnis do. Shiites make up approximately 10–13 per cent of the world population of muslims. Their view is a significant minority view that needs to be represented, but per NPOV it should not overshadow the article, but be represented in proportion to its prominence.
- If we treat figurative images like the Persian miniatures as specifically Shiite, then certainly the proportion of exclusively Shiite Islamic media – that Sunnis could not identify with – should not exceed 10–13 per cent; indeed, it should be rather less than that, as some of the Islamic media we have in the article, like the calligraphic symbol of Muhammad's name, are meaningful to all muslims, whether Shiite or Sunni, in such a way that Shiite views are in part already reflected in the presence of these common symbols. We should exempt geographical features and the like, as a hill is neither Shiite nor Sunni, but we should include in our thinking whether a mosque we show is a Sunni or Shiite one, or one frequented by all muslims. I think this way we could at least handle the Islamic art, and demonstrate that we have thought about neutrality and tried to apply policy in a meaningful way. --JN466 00:45, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
- Look, this has been covered above at length; it is a false distinction, but one that some POV Sunni editors here are keen to make - pushing all images into a "Shia" box. Certainly historically many Shia divines objected to images, and no doubt there is a considerable range of views today, although the kneejerk reaction that they are "un-Islamic" that they produce in some uninformed Sunnis is probably missing. The Persian miniature tradition grew up in a period when the great majority of Persian rulers, and a rather smaller majority of the people, were Sunni, and often fiercely persecuted Shias. I hope we all know that the present nearly-all-Shia demographic of Iranian Muslims only goes back to the Safavid dynasty who came to power in 1501, by which time the artistic traditions, including depicting Muhammad when appropriate, were well established. In fact the majority of surviving images of Muhammad come from Ottoman Turkey, which was pretty solidly Sunni - very solidly in the royal family, who commissioned the Siyer-i Nebi etc. Traditional images still fail to shock there, at least in big cities. The area where there is very little evidence that images were ever accepted widely is the Sunni part of the Arabic-speaking world. Johnbod (talk) 01:43, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks. However, while all of that is historically true, when we apply NPOV we usually go by the present-day publishing landscape, rather than viewpoints from 500+ years ago. I accept there have been Shiites throughout history who objected to such images, and there have been Sunnis who produced some (though clearly not many for the past few hundred years, and not in the core regions of the Sunni faith); but in terms of showing or republishing them today, Sunnis generally don't like it, and Shiites are okay with it. To be NPOV today, we should reflect that. --JN466 02:22, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
- Turkey is not "core"? That is even before we go into the issues of Muslims outside traditionally Muslim countries, and the range of views they have. Or the question of who is likely to read English, or have internet access - surely fundamental to the "publishing landscape". Johnbod (talk) 02:27, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
- Come, don't be so pugnacious. ;) You know very well what I am trying to say. I think the IP made a good point above: no one present-day "school" of Islam should dominate the article's approach to illustration, certainly not a minority school of thought. Please consider it as a way to put this to rest, based on an easily defensible NPOV argument, rather than an eternally contentious application of the NOTCENSORED hammer. Best, --JN466 02:54, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
- Turkey is not "core"? That is even before we go into the issues of Muslims outside traditionally Muslim countries, and the range of views they have. Or the question of who is likely to read English, or have internet access - surely fundamental to the "publishing landscape". Johnbod (talk) 02:27, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks. However, while all of that is historically true, when we apply NPOV we usually go by the present-day publishing landscape, rather than viewpoints from 500+ years ago. I accept there have been Shiites throughout history who objected to such images, and there have been Sunnis who produced some (though clearly not many for the past few hundred years, and not in the core regions of the Sunni faith); but in terms of showing or republishing them today, Sunnis generally don't like it, and Shiites are okay with it. To be NPOV today, we should reflect that. --JN466 02:22, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
- Look, this has been covered above at length; it is a false distinction, but one that some POV Sunni editors here are keen to make - pushing all images into a "Shia" box. Certainly historically many Shia divines objected to images, and no doubt there is a considerable range of views today, although the kneejerk reaction that they are "un-Islamic" that they produce in some uninformed Sunnis is probably missing. The Persian miniature tradition grew up in a period when the great majority of Persian rulers, and a rather smaller majority of the people, were Sunni, and often fiercely persecuted Shias. I hope we all know that the present nearly-all-Shia demographic of Iranian Muslims only goes back to the Safavid dynasty who came to power in 1501, by which time the artistic traditions, including depicting Muhammad when appropriate, were well established. In fact the majority of surviving images of Muhammad come from Ottoman Turkey, which was pretty solidly Sunni - very solidly in the royal family, who commissioned the Siyer-i Nebi etc. Traditional images still fail to shock there, at least in big cities. The area where there is very little evidence that images were ever accepted widely is the Sunni part of the Arabic-speaking world. Johnbod (talk) 01:43, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
- And there is the reason why we will run into debates and controversy on this issue no matter what route we take. Remove the images, and you will have "encylopedists", those of other sects of Islam or of other religions and various others complaining. Keep them, and you'll have some of various sects of Islam and those trying to support them complaining. But, only one choice leads down a very dangerous path. That dangerous choice is removing content over religious beliefs or religious objections (again, Scientology article, anyone? Age of the Earth article (where myself and others just had to remove (yet again) the (paraphrased) "you're all wrong, it's 6,000 years old, my Bible tells me so" edit) and numerous other articles). Heck, even in the topics related to Christianity, by the time we are done removing "incidental" and controversial issue at the behest of one sect or another, there wont be anything left in the various articles. And thus, that returns me to the only two major points I've been standing fast on: (1) no special case exceptions - they will spread elsewhere until a lot of articles become special case exceptions (especially when this makes news, which depending on our final resolution, it might just), and (2) take an entirely secular view on all articles (there isn't a single article on religion that I can think of off the top of my head that isn't "objectional" or "controversial" to some or many). Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 20:43, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
There's a false premise in the notion that we should consider the proportion of Shia vs Sunni: the assumption is that in writing this article we should adopt a Muslim point of view. We can -- and should -- write about Islam without doing that. The vast majority of the world's population has no objection to images of Muhammad; from a scholarly perspective (encyclopedia, anyone?) there's certainly no objection. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 07:54, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
- It's a tricky issue: but our illustrations are Islamic art, and should reflect Islamic art appropriately, in the correct proportions. We would strive to do the same if we illustrated an article on Buddha—we would not just use imagery from one Buddhist tradition. --JN466 08:45, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
- Even for the "correct proportions" I don't accept that we should pay much (if any) attention to population proportions. In any event, since you didn't respond to it directly, I'll say it again: we should not write/edit this article from a Muslim point of view, giving any weight (in editing decisions) to normative Muslim ideas about what is "appropriate". If you need another example where that question arises (and quickly gets dismissed): Scientologists would prefer that we not write anything about Xenu. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 09:13, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
- from a scholarly perspective (encyclopedia, anyone?) there's certainly no objection. There isn't? Because I'm a non-Muslim (non-religious in fact) scholar of religion and I object. Are scholars "offended?" No, but objection is a wholly different matter. Now let me be specific here. I don't object to deceptions of Muhammad on principle and indeed would object to their removal from contexts where they belong, like Depictions of Muhammad (or even one deception in a section by name in this entry). What I object to is their overuse in the entry on Muhammad, an overuse that does not reflect scholarship on Muhammad, or references sources covering the topic. Does that make it clear to you? This is not an art history entry. Have a look at other encyclopedias, introductory religion textbooks, and other reference sources that cover Muhammad as a topic and tell me what kinds of images you see. In fact here's a good exercise.
- Go through the sources that are used in this entry and see what type of depictions of Muhammad you find within them.
- If no images at all exist because its just a prose text of course that doesn't mean anything, and I wouldn't argue that. But see what types of images exist. And btw, the argument below about the profit motive deterring encyclopedias from putting depictions of Muhammad in them is nothing but misinformed editor speculation. It is also a clear attempt at a cheap end-run around our foundational principles when it comes to sourcing. Anyway without anything substantive backing the perspective it can't and shouldn't be taken seriously. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 12:15, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
- Okay, but on what grounds do you "object"? Most people on this talk page who object to the images do so because they are offended or because they believe we should cater to the fact that "Muslims are offended by them". It's fine if that's not where you're coming from, but we can't ignore the fact that that's what is driving most of this discussion (indeed the very existing of this sub-page). It might be possible to have a sensible discussion about "overuse" if we could shut down all the crap about whether the "offensiveness" of the images should play a role in editing decisions (and in any event I'm pleased you agree with me on that latter point). Nomoskedasticity (talk) 12:42, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
- I'm not sure we agree on the offensiveness part actually. Offensiveness should always be considered. If we're detracting from the educational value of our entries because we're trying not to offend a handful of people then I agree that we're doing something wrong. But all things equal, we should strive not to offend, but even that isn't the situation here. All things are not equal educationally because flooding the entry with those images actually has a negative educational impact. Again this is not the case in a section specifically about depictions, or in the main entry Depictions of Muhammad or in a relevant section of Islamic art. But in the main content areas of this entry presenting these images presents undue visual information about a subject that is not known through this type of visual information 99.9% of the time. That is what differentiates Muhammad from Jesus and Buddha, btw, both figures who are well known through this type of visual information, and have been throughout history. I've made this argument in several locations already, but I guess I haven't done so here. The surest way to settle this issue is to go back to the sources, and the best sources to start with are the ones use to write this very entry. I'm not a specialist in Islam and I'm happy to consider that my experience with introductory western religion texts, introductory texts on Islam, etc. etc. might be off. But an argument from art history is not about to convince me of that. Go to the sources about Muhammad, not the sources about his depictions because this entry is about Muhammad and not Islamic art. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 13:20, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
- Well, I think it's going to be quite difficult to have sensible discussions about the educational value of visual representations until the offensiveness question is resolved; we would only be engaging the former issue because of the latter dispute. Would you argue under some specified ceteris paribus condition that we should try to avoid offending scientologists about Xenu? Should we cater to the preferences of Haredi Jews not to see pictures of women? (Some factions now digitally remove them from newspaper photographs even when there is no problem of tzniut). I really don't think it's possible to have a consistent/coherent position along these lines. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 18:36, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
- Actually, I remember that editors agreed to remove one or two cartoon images from the Xenu article a while ago, because of undue concerns. Not to avoid offending Scientologists, as Scientologists would still be offended by the images that remained, as well as the existence of the article itself, but just because it was over the top and actually detracted from the article. --JN466 18:50, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
- Okay, but from your description it would appear that the handling of those images ("not to avoid offending scientologists...") reinforces my point rather than the opposite (as perhaps you intended). In any event, I am curious to know Griswaldo's answer (anyone else's, of course, but Griswaldo's especially) to my question about Haredi Jews: should we (say, in editing articles on Jews in general or on Haredi Jews specifically) pay any attention at all to their preference not to see pictures of women? To be a bit more specific: should we give any weight at all to the fact that they are offended by pictures of women? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 22:25, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
- While we're waiting for Griswaldo. There are 90 people depicted in Haredi. One and two halves of them are women. At least I think they're women; I can't make out their faces but they're looking at dresses. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 23:48, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
- Okay, but from your description it would appear that the handling of those images ("not to avoid offending scientologists...") reinforces my point rather than the opposite (as perhaps you intended). In any event, I am curious to know Griswaldo's answer (anyone else's, of course, but Griswaldo's especially) to my question about Haredi Jews: should we (say, in editing articles on Jews in general or on Haredi Jews specifically) pay any attention at all to their preference not to see pictures of women? To be a bit more specific: should we give any weight at all to the fact that they are offended by pictures of women? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 22:25, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
- Actually, I remember that editors agreed to remove one or two cartoon images from the Xenu article a while ago, because of undue concerns. Not to avoid offending Scientologists, as Scientologists would still be offended by the images that remained, as well as the existence of the article itself, but just because it was over the top and actually detracted from the article. --JN466 18:50, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
- Well, I think it's going to be quite difficult to have sensible discussions about the educational value of visual representations until the offensiveness question is resolved; we would only be engaging the former issue because of the latter dispute. Would you argue under some specified ceteris paribus condition that we should try to avoid offending scientologists about Xenu? Should we cater to the preferences of Haredi Jews not to see pictures of women? (Some factions now digitally remove them from newspaper photographs even when there is no problem of tzniut). I really don't think it's possible to have a consistent/coherent position along these lines. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 18:36, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
- I'm not sure we agree on the offensiveness part actually. Offensiveness should always be considered. If we're detracting from the educational value of our entries because we're trying not to offend a handful of people then I agree that we're doing something wrong. But all things equal, we should strive not to offend, but even that isn't the situation here. All things are not equal educationally because flooding the entry with those images actually has a negative educational impact. Again this is not the case in a section specifically about depictions, or in the main entry Depictions of Muhammad or in a relevant section of Islamic art. But in the main content areas of this entry presenting these images presents undue visual information about a subject that is not known through this type of visual information 99.9% of the time. That is what differentiates Muhammad from Jesus and Buddha, btw, both figures who are well known through this type of visual information, and have been throughout history. I've made this argument in several locations already, but I guess I haven't done so here. The surest way to settle this issue is to go back to the sources, and the best sources to start with are the ones use to write this very entry. I'm not a specialist in Islam and I'm happy to consider that my experience with introductory western religion texts, introductory texts on Islam, etc. etc. might be off. But an argument from art history is not about to convince me of that. Go to the sources about Muhammad, not the sources about his depictions because this entry is about Muhammad and not Islamic art. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 13:20, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
- Okay, but on what grounds do you "object"? Most people on this talk page who object to the images do so because they are offended or because they believe we should cater to the fact that "Muslims are offended by them". It's fine if that's not where you're coming from, but we can't ignore the fact that that's what is driving most of this discussion (indeed the very existing of this sub-page). It might be possible to have a sensible discussion about "overuse" if we could shut down all the crap about whether the "offensiveness" of the images should play a role in editing decisions (and in any event I'm pleased you agree with me on that latter point). Nomoskedasticity (talk) 12:42, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
- from a scholarly perspective (encyclopedia, anyone?) there's certainly no objection. There isn't? Because I'm a non-Muslim (non-religious in fact) scholar of religion and I object. Are scholars "offended?" No, but objection is a wholly different matter. Now let me be specific here. I don't object to deceptions of Muhammad on principle and indeed would object to their removal from contexts where they belong, like Depictions of Muhammad (or even one deception in a section by name in this entry). What I object to is their overuse in the entry on Muhammad, an overuse that does not reflect scholarship on Muhammad, or references sources covering the topic. Does that make it clear to you? This is not an art history entry. Have a look at other encyclopedias, introductory religion textbooks, and other reference sources that cover Muhammad as a topic and tell me what kinds of images you see. In fact here's a good exercise.
- Even for the "correct proportions" I don't accept that we should pay much (if any) attention to population proportions. In any event, since you didn't respond to it directly, I'll say it again: we should not write/edit this article from a Muslim point of view, giving any weight (in editing decisions) to normative Muslim ideas about what is "appropriate". If you need another example where that question arises (and quickly gets dismissed): Scientologists would prefer that we not write anything about Xenu. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 09:13, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
Nomoskedasticity I'm not sure how you missed the fact that I've already answered the question. "All things being equal ..." is what I wrote. I have no idea what you mean by the Xenu comment so I can't really address that, but with Haredi Jews, clearly we don't remove all images of women from Wikipedia to satisfy one extremely small religious group. That's not "all things being equal," and indeed that's quite clearly diminishing the educational value of the project. Do I have to write specifically, and you will need to use common sense, for you to understand that some manner of rationally considered discretion is necessary when figuring something like this out? But I'm not sure either why you are forcing me to answer this question in the first place, when I've already said that all things aren't even equal in this matter, and that educational value is diminished by not following the lead of other reliable sources on presenting information about Muhammad. Indeed, that was the reason I "objected."Griswaldo (talk) 02:52, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- I'm pressing this issue because I (as I said above) I don't think it's possible to have a coherent and consistent position that gives weight to the offense various people take. You wrote "Offensiveness should always be considered". I disagree; when Haredi Jews feel offended about pictures of women, that's their problem not the problem of wikipedia editors, and it should be given no consideration at all in any editing discussion or decision, even when "all things are equal". Really, none whatsoever. Do you really disagree (as your general statement, quoted here, would imply)? All the other stuff -- educational value and reliable sources and all that -- is of course worth discussing. But given the origins of this particular discussion right now it will be difficult or even impossible to do so until we can separate it from the "offensiveness" question. That's what this thread is about (see the section heading) and it's what the various other threads on other pages are about. I'm interested in trying to resolve it, and it is difficult to do so when people continue to try to change the question. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 08:25, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- You write that "offense" ... should be given no consideration at all in any editing discussion or decision, even when "all things are equal". Really, none whatsoever. If that is your position why are you asking anyone to discuss anything with you? It is an ideological adherence to a extremist doctrine that says never to even consider offense when making editorial decisions. You're welcome to that POV of course, but it leaves no room for discussion with anyone on the issue, ever. My position is that it should always be considered but not that it should always be acted on. Rationally considered based on things like educational value (+/-), levels of offense, and outcomes of offense, different situations will have different answers. Not considering offense, especially if all else is equal, means being willing to possibly damage our reputation and/or lose readership. Of course it is in the best interest of any Encyclopedia to try not to do those things. Also, please understand, that outside of publications that want to offend someone, all publications "consider" offensiveness if the issue is brought up. Sure they have different standards and different conventions for resolving questions of offense, they all consider it. Why? As human being socialized in large groups most of us develop empathy and the ability to consider our actions in terms of cause and effect. If you need to me to expound further on that idea I'd be glad to. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 11:44, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- I can only assume (while noting that you decline to address the issue directly) that you would be willing to "consider" the offensiveness to Haredi Jews of pictures of women -- and perhaps, all other things equal, to refrain from causing offence by omitting such pictures. I am not willing to consider it; I don't see how that amounts to an extremist position (quite the opposite, in fact), and I also don't see how it is preventing us from discussing it (what else are we doing??). Of course, I can see why it would be uncomfortable for you to address the issue (Haredim/women/pictures) directly. But that only shows the difficulty of adopting a view on offensiveness that one could describe as consistent and coherent. By the way, lest anyone think the Haredim/women/pictures issue is something I've simply conjured up, an article in today's HaAretz [20] would dispel that notion. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 12:48, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- "... noting that you decline to address the issue directly." Uhm, no that's entirely false. I addressed it directly and here's what I wrote:
- clearly we don't remove all images of women from Wikipedia to satisfy one extremely small religious group. That's not "all things being equal," and indeed that's quite clearly diminishing the educational value of the project.
- Do you need me to rephrase that? The Haredi case is pretty clear cut. Removing all images of women from Wikipedia means a large negative impact to the project's educational value with very little gain in terms of trying not to offend anyone. So there you have it. I "considered" the offensiveness issue you described and in my opinion its not worth the damage. What more do I need to say to address the issue directly? Can you answer my question now? Why are you asking for discussion about something that in your mind isn't open for discussion? I find it disingenuous and a huge waste of time. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 16:09, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- But you haven't answered my question. You've turned it into a different one, one which you naturally find easier to answer (speaking of disingenuous...). You've said, it's not all things equal and so we won't delete pictures of women. But I am asking: if other things were equal (hypothetically), would we give consideration to the fact that Haredi Jews are offended by pictures of women? (If it helps -- imagine that the question pertains not to all pictures of women on Wikipedia but to use of pictures on articles about Haredi Jews.) My question tries to clarify the nature of the principle that says we should consider offence. Once again, I think the feelings of those who are offended by pictures of women deserve no consideration at all. I then find it difficult to embrace the principle in general; to put it the other way around, I don't see how one could embrace the principle in general without embracing the implication that we should care when people (e.g. Haredi Jews) are offended by pictures of women (an implication I abhor). As for your question: I've never said I don't consider the issue open for discussion, and I am plainly interested in discussing it. I'm trying to convince you and others that my position is right; if you've failed to convince me that your position is right it hardly means that I think the issue isn't open for discussion. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:18, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- Nomoskedasticity either engage a real situaion or a hypothetical one, but don't take a real subject that I and others have a certain amount of information about and then ask us to make it hypothetical in a way that isn't true to the actual situation and forces us to put aside what we know. You want to make this hypothetical? Group 1 is offended by activity X. All things being equal we could engage in activity X or activity Y here. Either would be just as educational, just as representative, just as easy to do, and only one of them, X causes anyone offense. If that is your question then I have an answer. Do Y instead of X, and that would be my answer every time. The idea of "all things being equal" is something to think with, not something that usually happens in the real world. As I've pointed out in the real situations of Haredis and depictions of women and Muslims and Muhammad all things are not equal. In the Haredi situation it would hurt us educationally to not offend the group (especially since we would need to remove all images of women and not just on the Haredi entry). In the other, when it comes to certain entries, we can actually both offend the group less and increase the educational value by decreasing the number of images in our entry that show Muhammad depicted, and especially that show his face. The Muhammad entry is such an entry. So you have your hypothetical answer now too, just don't ask me to answer about a real group based on unreal premises. I wont do it. It makes no sense and only confused things. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 20:32, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- But you haven't answered my question. You've turned it into a different one, one which you naturally find easier to answer (speaking of disingenuous...). You've said, it's not all things equal and so we won't delete pictures of women. But I am asking: if other things were equal (hypothetically), would we give consideration to the fact that Haredi Jews are offended by pictures of women? (If it helps -- imagine that the question pertains not to all pictures of women on Wikipedia but to use of pictures on articles about Haredi Jews.) My question tries to clarify the nature of the principle that says we should consider offence. Once again, I think the feelings of those who are offended by pictures of women deserve no consideration at all. I then find it difficult to embrace the principle in general; to put it the other way around, I don't see how one could embrace the principle in general without embracing the implication that we should care when people (e.g. Haredi Jews) are offended by pictures of women (an implication I abhor). As for your question: I've never said I don't consider the issue open for discussion, and I am plainly interested in discussing it. I'm trying to convince you and others that my position is right; if you've failed to convince me that your position is right it hardly means that I think the issue isn't open for discussion. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:18, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- "... noting that you decline to address the issue directly." Uhm, no that's entirely false. I addressed it directly and here's what I wrote:
- I can only assume (while noting that you decline to address the issue directly) that you would be willing to "consider" the offensiveness to Haredi Jews of pictures of women -- and perhaps, all other things equal, to refrain from causing offence by omitting such pictures. I am not willing to consider it; I don't see how that amounts to an extremist position (quite the opposite, in fact), and I also don't see how it is preventing us from discussing it (what else are we doing??). Of course, I can see why it would be uncomfortable for you to address the issue (Haredim/women/pictures) directly. But that only shows the difficulty of adopting a view on offensiveness that one could describe as consistent and coherent. By the way, lest anyone think the Haredim/women/pictures issue is something I've simply conjured up, an article in today's HaAretz [20] would dispel that notion. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 12:48, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- You write that "offense" ... should be given no consideration at all in any editing discussion or decision, even when "all things are equal". Really, none whatsoever. If that is your position why are you asking anyone to discuss anything with you? It is an ideological adherence to a extremist doctrine that says never to even consider offense when making editorial decisions. You're welcome to that POV of course, but it leaves no room for discussion with anyone on the issue, ever. My position is that it should always be considered but not that it should always be acted on. Rationally considered based on things like educational value (+/-), levels of offense, and outcomes of offense, different situations will have different answers. Not considering offense, especially if all else is equal, means being willing to possibly damage our reputation and/or lose readership. Of course it is in the best interest of any Encyclopedia to try not to do those things. Also, please understand, that outside of publications that want to offend someone, all publications "consider" offensiveness if the issue is brought up. Sure they have different standards and different conventions for resolving questions of offense, they all consider it. Why? As human being socialized in large groups most of us develop empathy and the ability to consider our actions in terms of cause and effect. If you need to me to expound further on that idea I'd be glad to. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 11:44, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
What appears in other reference works?
There is some mention of this above but it seems important enough to deserve its own section. In this case, what types of images (if any) are used in modern biographical works or articles on the prophet, or similar individuals? Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:23, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks; I'd really welcome further source-based research here. (FWIW, I was unable to find any images of Muhammad in Encyclopaedia Britannica.) --JN466 10:04, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
- I'd love to see such a section, and I think Jayen and I discussed this briefly earlier. I think the issue we may run into is figuring out why they have tons of images/no images/some images. Inotherwords, I think we'd need to find some relevance factor such as that. That being the case, my opinion is leaning towards the "Depictions..." article being a more appropriate place (with perhaps mention in the subsection of the same name that is no longer here). Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 20:26, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
- Other reference works have to pay for images, and the paper they are printed on, and almost all use far fewer in all articles. The most relevant comparison is other wikis, and none of the opposers of all images have yet expained why that hotbed of anti-Muslim sentiment, the Farsi wiki, has 5 images to our 6. In a featured article too. By removing the images would we be abandoning Sunni/Shia neutrality? Very possibly. Anti-Shia POV is very evident among some complainers, as long-term followers of the page will know. Johnbod (talk) 20:32, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
- Other reference works would also have to worry about lost revenue: including images might mean lost sales (while including images likely wouldn't increase sales among other market segments). Thankfully this is not something we have to worry about. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 22:42, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
- As I stated above, these are wholly unfounded speculations without any evidence of being accurate. IMO they are not just groundless, they are wrong. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 14:49, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
- Does your opinion ("IMO") have any more grounding than mine? Or are your unfounded speculations supposed to be more important than mine? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 18:53, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
- Your reasoning is not actually sound, if you think about it. A Wikipedia without readers would be as unsatisfactory as a book without buyers. Whether there is an exchange of money is irrelevant; the common factor is product quality, i.e. meeting the target group's needs. --JN466 19:19, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
- My position is the defacto position of Wikipedia based on its policies around WP:RS and WP:V. We trust mainstream sources to be mainstream, unless there is a well documented reason not to. We don't dismiss them based on idle speculation. Griswaldo (talk) 19:23, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
- Does your opinion ("IMO") have any more grounding than mine? Or are your unfounded speculations supposed to be more important than mine? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 18:53, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
- Other reference works have to pay for images, and the paper they are printed on, and almost all use far fewer in all articles. The most relevant comparison is other wikis, and none of the opposers of all images have yet expained why that hotbed of anti-Muslim sentiment, the Farsi wiki, has 5 images to our 6. In a featured article too. By removing the images would we be abandoning Sunni/Shia neutrality? Very possibly. Anti-Shia POV is very evident among some complainers, as long-term followers of the page will know. Johnbod (talk) 20:32, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
- I'd love to see such a section, and I think Jayen and I discussed this briefly earlier. I think the issue we may run into is figuring out why they have tons of images/no images/some images. Inotherwords, I think we'd need to find some relevance factor such as that. That being the case, my opinion is leaning towards the "Depictions..." article being a more appropriate place (with perhaps mention in the subsection of the same name that is no longer here). Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 20:26, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
- Here is the list of figures in The Cambridge Companion to Muhammad; it does includes four figurative works of art (figures 3, 4, 6, 7, visible in amazon; the two samples from the Indonesian children's book are not images of Muhammad). --JN466 23:41, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
- Interesting - they aren't visible on Amazon where I am unfortunately. 11 figs + 3 maps, so 4/14. Johnbod (talk) 00:21, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
- I have academic access to the Cambridge book online and have looked at all the images. There are two figurative images from the world of Islamic art. One is from a Persian manuscript and in it Muhammad (and only Muhammad) is fully veiled. The other is 20th century Senegalese and Muhammad is virtually formless but for his outline (it looks like a white ghost with a halo basically). There are two other figurative images and both are in a specific section of the book titled "European Accounts of Muhammad's Life." Both of these show his face - one is from an early illuminated French translation of the Quran and the other is a photo of part of a frieze from the U.S. Supreme Court building that includes a number of historical lawgivers. The final chapter of the book, before the epilogue, is titled "Images of Muḥammad in literature, art, and music," and I haven't had time to read it, but it contains two images. The first is an example of hilye at the very beginning and the second, towards the end is a photo of the cover of the film The Message starring Anthony Quinn (as Muhammad's uncle). Quinn's photo, in costume, appears on the cover but like I said he isn't Muhammad. Indeed Muhammad isn't depicted in the film at all, and the text discussing it describes the clever techniques used by the film makers to pull that off. As a whole I think the Cambridge book reinforces the educational value of figurative images in context, but surprisingly not the context one might have imagined. It would be interesting to look at the text surrounding the two faceless images when time allows, but I think it is quite notable that they are faceless/formless. I might personally be willing to soften my opinion a bit towards inclusion of one or two images that are veiled or formless, because those images are quite educational when it comes to issue of aniconism ... much more so than the fringe traditions of flouting aniconism altogether. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 13:40, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
- But that brings us back to the same problem. Nothing disparaging meant in this - simply pointing out the problem. (1) some people are looking at this article as a biography, albeit of someone who is a religious figure. (2a) some people are treating this as an article on religion. (2b) some people are treating handling images in this article as if the article were about depictions of Muhammad.
- Using Point 1, what is relevant is
- portraying the person through (in order of importance/relevance) (a) photographs, (b) portraits, (c) depictions
- portraying relevant historical events through (in order of importance/relevance) (a) photographs, (b) portraits, (c) depictions
- Using Point 2 (a or b), what is relevant is
- selecting depictions as represented/applicable to the religion or those who venerate Muhammad - or both (with suitable text to indicate which types of images are preferred by which sect of Islam (veiled, unveiled or none)).
- That leaves the big stopping point we keep running into. Do we treat this as a biography, or a religious article?
- IMO, Point 2 is a discussion for the "Depictions..." article and any such subsection that we are (above) considering placing back in this article - and this article should be treated as a biography. I'm beginning to suspect that the problem isn't interpretation of policy. The problem is differing camps on what this article is - a biography or a religious article. ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 21:13, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
- With all due respect Robert you keep on bringing up this artificial distinction between biography and religion. This is a religious biography. Please have a look at the sources of this entry - the are scholars of the history Islam. "Biographical" information about virtually ancient religious figures is within the domain of the history of religion. It's a simple fact. The distinction is artificial. We do not treat all biographies the same either, based on some magical formula. We treat each subject matter as the mainstream reliable sources do. I've already given you the answer to the false dilemma you pose. Look at the sources we use for this entry and see what type of depictions they use, when they do use depictions, and start from there.Griswaldo (talk) 21:39, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
- Perhaps you misunderstood my post? The whole first section isn't an argument with you, it is simply fact. Various editors (not just me) think this article should be treated as a biography; that happens to be about a religious figure. Others (including you) do not. Thus, the point is, what you think isn't (yet) relevant to how we treat the images issue in the article. What consensus we come to or what policies we find that will make such a distinction is what ends up being relevant. Perhaps it's your POV on this - perhaps it is not. The point is, as long as there are two decent sized camps who wish to treat the images in the article differently, then solving the "images issue" isn't going to be possible - until concessions or a consensus or some showing of applicable policy takes place.
- The last paragraph, starting with "IMO" is simply that - my opinion on the matter - just as you gave yours. I was not trying to start a debate. It was given as additional proof (in addition to others' postings on this and other pages) that your POV on this matter is not absolute or unchallenged. Nothing more or less. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 21:53, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
- Robert my point is that you are neglecting how we should be dealing with this issue based on our policies and conventions. We should follow the mainstream sources. Is there a policy on how to write a biography? Once again, I am also treating this as a biography, but just like with all entries, biographies or not, I also recognize that we should follow reliable sources. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 22:07, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, (among others) IUP, which states "In general, images should depict the concepts described in the text of the article." - thus, I would posit, for historical events, images (photographs, depictions, etc) of those events should be used. I would further posit an image or three of the article's subject would be applicable as well. There are sections on historical events in the article. There are images related to those historical events currently in use. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 22:13, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
- Also, MOS/Images is a guideline that covers such... which ironically is written with a blurb that (for this article, since it is not about depictions) seems to be against using images of "flame and veil" as I am pretty sure no one would reasonably assert that Muhammad's head was both veiled and enshrouded in flame. It also covers the "false" depictions vs "we have no photos" issue. "Consequently, images should look like what they are meant to illustrate, even if they are not provably authentic images." All we have are depictions. Muhammad's head did not look like a veiled flame. The article is not about "Depictions of Muhammad" (there is an article on that topic already). There are other sections in policies and guidelines that touch on this topic too - which is why I keep reiterating that all such need to be applied. Far better than to keep picking and choosing one policy or another. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 22:20, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
- You are surely aware that many of our images of Jesus feature a halo, a very similar artistic device. That's entirely traditional, and arguably representative of something that can be seen. --JN466 03:42, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, while (a) many don't have such, and (b) you can still see his face. The halo has no more of an effect than a hat, and even such images as those portray a depiction of what he looked like. OTOH, a "no face, just a flame and a white spot" or "just a flame head" or "veil and flame" are arguably not what he looked like. But that aside, I am not arguing for not using such pictures. I'm arguing that they all (including Jesus and other articles) should be balanced by policies and guidelines - including images of him in historical settings, a couple showing how he (not how a flame) was perceived by others, a couple of how through religion, he was perceived. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 06:00, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- You are surely aware that many of our images of Jesus feature a halo, a very similar artistic device. That's entirely traditional, and arguably representative of something that can be seen. --JN466 03:42, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- Robert my point is that you are neglecting how we should be dealing with this issue based on our policies and conventions. We should follow the mainstream sources. Is there a policy on how to write a biography? Once again, I am also treating this as a biography, but just like with all entries, biographies or not, I also recognize that we should follow reliable sources. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 22:07, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
- With all due respect Robert you keep on bringing up this artificial distinction between biography and religion. This is a religious biography. Please have a look at the sources of this entry - the are scholars of the history Islam. "Biographical" information about virtually ancient religious figures is within the domain of the history of religion. It's a simple fact. The distinction is artificial. We do not treat all biographies the same either, based on some magical formula. We treat each subject matter as the mainstream reliable sources do. I've already given you the answer to the false dilemma you pose. Look at the sources we use for this entry and see what type of depictions they use, when they do use depictions, and start from there.Griswaldo (talk) 21:39, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
- I have academic access to the Cambridge book online and have looked at all the images. There are two figurative images from the world of Islamic art. One is from a Persian manuscript and in it Muhammad (and only Muhammad) is fully veiled. The other is 20th century Senegalese and Muhammad is virtually formless but for his outline (it looks like a white ghost with a halo basically). There are two other figurative images and both are in a specific section of the book titled "European Accounts of Muhammad's Life." Both of these show his face - one is from an early illuminated French translation of the Quran and the other is a photo of part of a frieze from the U.S. Supreme Court building that includes a number of historical lawgivers. The final chapter of the book, before the epilogue, is titled "Images of Muḥammad in literature, art, and music," and I haven't had time to read it, but it contains two images. The first is an example of hilye at the very beginning and the second, towards the end is a photo of the cover of the film The Message starring Anthony Quinn (as Muhammad's uncle). Quinn's photo, in costume, appears on the cover but like I said he isn't Muhammad. Indeed Muhammad isn't depicted in the film at all, and the text discussing it describes the clever techniques used by the film makers to pull that off. As a whole I think the Cambridge book reinforces the educational value of figurative images in context, but surprisingly not the context one might have imagined. It would be interesting to look at the text surrounding the two faceless images when time allows, but I think it is quite notable that they are faceless/formless. I might personally be willing to soften my opinion a bit towards inclusion of one or two images that are veiled or formless, because those images are quite educational when it comes to issue of aniconism ... much more so than the fringe traditions of flouting aniconism altogether. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 13:40, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
- Interesting - they aren't visible on Amazon where I am unfortunately. 11 figs + 3 maps, so 4/14. Johnbod (talk) 00:21, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for the discussion of the sources. Someone did make the argument that other biographies might not be perfect comparisons for some reason or another. That is true, but it is still something to compre to. I would also compare it to biographies of other persons from the period. I think it quite likely that anyone from that period who is portaryed in any medium, would likely have those depictions in any modern biography. Most cultures, east and west, don't seem to have anything against figurative portrayals of persons and certainly wikipedia does not. Almost any picture does convey information and it does seem to me encyclopedic to include it for that reason (there is little need to so vastly value written information over pictoral). Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:19, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- Of course there is if that's traditional, and I mean traditional in scholarly accounts of Muhammad not religious ones. If we included written information that is fringe in terms of how mainstream scholarship and mainstream reference sources deal with a specific subject that information would be removed. Why is visual information any different? If certain subjects are not known through visual information for whatever reason, then it is not up to us to unduely weight our entries on those subjects with visual information. This is why we need to look at other reference sources. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 20:49, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- I am the one who asked for the discussion of other sources but I see no reason to limit it to Mohmmedan biographies, to analogies the types of images used. It is true that pictures have not "traditionally" appeared in scholarly writing, in general, but that was often for technical and economic reasons (and perhaps to bias against pictures), which do not apply to us. Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:40, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- FWIW, here are lists of illustrations from other books on Muhammad, searched for using "Muhammad in the title" and "List of illustrations/List of figures" as search arguments [21]:
The Britannica online article on Muhammad has an image of the Kaaba, two images of mosques, and one of calligraphy. (Incidentally, the vast majority of secondary literature on Muhammad is written by Muslims, who would typically refrain from including images.) --JN466 03:15, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
- A book by Carl W. Ernst, "Following Muhammad – rethinking Islam in the contemporary world", is here; no images of Muhammad, but includes a discussion of such images (and their tolerance in Iran) on pages 184–186. Lots of calligraphy. --JN466 04:40, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
- Perhaps I misunderstood, but your second, third, and fifth source don't appear to be biographies of the Prophet, and your second has a figurative human illustration of Muhammad on the cover of the book. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:31, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
- You're correct, and I overlooked the (veiled) cover image on the second. It's tedious to do in Google Books; getting an overview is probably easier in a book shop or library. Looking at title pages itself is not without interest [25][26], though it's a bit inconclusive as it doesn't tell us what's in the books. --JN466 14:45, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
As for Western reception, I'd favour replacing the present "Muhammad preaches" with a picture of the SCOTUS Muhammad, as the latter's physical place says a lot about modern Western reception. There is room for another image in that section and I'd favour a medieval illustration of the medieval European view. Perhaps "Faith stepping on Muhammad." [27] It shows the disrespectful tone without the ghastliness of the Dante illustrations. Placing the latter above the former would, in my opinion, show the historical shift away from demonisation. Thoughts? --Anthonyhcole (talk) 03:57, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- Personally, I do think we should avoid plainly disrespectful depictions - this is something that has been aired various times in the archived sections. They are rightly covered at the depictions article. Johnbod (talk) 04:22, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- Agree with Johnbod here. SCOTUS is fine. --JN466 04:28, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- I should have said, I don't support SCOTUS here, as a) It's a tiny little photo you can hardly see, b) it's already used at "Depictions", c) unlike Gagarin it has been a focus for (ok, very limited) Muslim protest already. Johnbod (talk)
- I agree with regard to the quality of SCOTUS. But I don't agree with leaving out two images exemplifying the the very essence of the section – the shift from demonisation and disrespect in the Middle Ages to a more tolerant treatment in the modern era – on the grounds that Muslims or any others are offended.
- I should have said, I don't support SCOTUS here, as a) It's a tiny little photo you can hardly see, b) it's already used at "Depictions", c) unlike Gagarin it has been a focus for (ok, very limited) Muslim protest already. Johnbod (talk)
- Agree with Johnbod here. SCOTUS is fine. --JN466 04:28, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- This may seem to contradict my wish to remove the black stone image but the consistent thread is relevance. Western treatment of Muhammad in the Middle Ages, and the later shift in that treatment is quite important to the topic, especially in an English language encyclopedia, and the images I'm suggesting are not mere artist's impressions of some event, they are examples of the very treatment being discussed: very highly relevant. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 11:05, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- The one reference source about Muhammad that has had it's images cataloged (the Cambridge book above) had two images in it's Western views section and one was the SCOTUS image. The other, however, was of Muhammad preaching. Anyway I figured I'd bring that up here because it is an example from a quality reference source. Those images, in the Western views section, were also the only two in the entire book to show Muhammad's face. I think that is another example we could follow. Even in the depictions section, I think a veiled Muhammad would be best because it illustrates aniconism in action.Griswaldo (talk) 11:50, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
Black stone image
I removed the black stone image with the edit summary "Per WP:IUP and WP:DUE." It was restored by Nomoskedasticity with "Surely we would want to discuss removal of images, under current circumstances." Which is fair enough. The rationale is that the incident depicted is not referred to in the section, which makes it redundant. Discussion on this page includes
- I personally think this one is fine, if it were actually illustrating material in the text. It isn't, in fact the story of Muhammad moving the Black Stone is not even mentioned anywhere except for the cryptic reference in the image caption. nableezy - 19:00, 25 October 2011
- The one about showing the Black Stone episode may be a remnant of a time when the article had a description of that. It was removed as being unimportant, and we already have an article on that event. Amatulić 13:33, 27 October 2011
- I would genuinely be happy with a picture by picture proposal as this allows the weeding out of irrelevant works (kicks black stone again.) Tivanir2 17:55, 28 October 2011
- If historically relevant to Muhammad (as opposed to Islam or such), I'd support additional content to support the image. Otherwise, I'd support image removal. ROBERTMFROMLI 20:06, 3 November 2011
- I don't mind including it and it is another picture of him but if we are referencing a specific event we should at least have a line or two and a link if it is important enough to warrent a picture of the event in my mind. Tivanir2 20:11, 3 November 2011
So there is agreement it does not support the text. On that basis it should go. If after a discussion of different elements of the topic – particularly with regard to the relative importance assigned to the different elements by reliable sources – it is decided that scholarly reviews of the Prophet's life of this size, or reputable encyclopedia articles on him, tend to include a description of the black rock incident, then I'd favour adding a section on it and discussing whether an artist's impression of the event is WP:DUE. Presently it doesn't belong. May I move it out? --Anthonyhcole (talk) 10:33, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- Fine by me as well per reasonings given above. The image is present in 6 other articles. --JN466 10:52, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- Perhaps it would be best if people commenting said how they feel on the overall issue as well - as a strong supporter of removing all images of Muhammad here, it is hardly surprising it is "fine" by you. That goes for Anthony too. Johnbod (talk) 11:27, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- If I were as single-minded about it as you intimate, I would not have drawn attention to the presence of such images in the Cambridge Companion in the preceding section. I do feel we have too many figurative images; I'd be quite happy to have none here, as long as we have a link to the depictions article, because we have plenty there and in other articles; and if we have some here, I think they would be best housed in a section on depictions of Muhammad and the European reception section. --JN466 11:41, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- Please see the above thread for a clarification of my position on images of Muhammad in this encyclopedia. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 11:48, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- Perhaps it would be best if people commenting said how they feel on the overall issue as well - as a strong supporter of removing all images of Muhammad here, it is hardly surprising it is "fine" by you. That goes for Anthony too. Johnbod (talk) 11:27, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- First, about the text. I personally feel the incident should be mentioned, in two or three lines, whether or not the picture is kept. If the picture is just removed we won't even have a link to Black Stone. Incidentally, that article gets 37k views per month, is illustrated by the same picture, and the talk page shows only one complaint (Jan 2011) since 2009, when it was moved to about 1/3 of the way through the article, below most people's first screen view but right next to the account of the incident. Before that there were about 3 complaints since 2006. That the incident was felt important enough in the 14th century to be one of only about ?12 scenes from the life illustrated in this manuscript is significant I think, and the hits our article gets suggest it remains significant. Personally I find the image unusually good as pure illustration of the incident by medieval standards, once one knows what is going on. Against it is that it is from one of the Jami' al-tawarikh manuscripts commissioned by its author Rashid-al-Din Hamadani, as is the first image showing Muhammad above. Note that there are two such manuscripts, one dated 1306 & one 1314 in Edinburgh (article here) with presumably one here from each, explaining the date discrepancy noted by someone above (1314 vs 1315 in our caption may be a calendar issue). These are absolutely key volumes in the general history of the Persian miniature (the JSTOR page explains this well) as well as the specific subject of illustrations showing Muhammad, but maybe two here is excessive. Personally I would keep it, as one ok with the status quo, but it may be the best candidate to go if we are looking for a reduction compromise. But then we should add text to cover the incident. Johnbod (talk) 11:22, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- I notice that Amatulić believes a description of the incident was removed as being unimportant. The first case to be made is the case in favour of including a description of the incident. That will involve assessing whether reliable reviews of similar size to this article, or other reputable encyclopedias tend to mention the event. We can't rely on the assessment of individual editors here. In the meantime, may I remove it? --Anthonyhcole (talk) 11:43, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- I'm trying to think if there is an incident in the life of Jesus that gets an equivalent nearly 10% of the views of the main bio that isn't mentioned at all in that bio. I would be surprised if there were. Our views seem a perfectly good way of assessing importance to our readers. You should let this section run for a few days - what's the rush? Johnbod (talk) 11:48, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- I'm referring to the relevance of the story in the illustration to articles about Muhammad. Is it usual to relate that story in articles this size about Muhammad? Do reliable sources of this scope usually mention it? I don't know but that will need to be established if you are asserting its relevance to this article. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 17:31, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- So am I, but the very high level of hits our article gets is also a measure of relevance. We should be careful to include Islamic sources too, as I'm sure you would agree. Johnbod (talk) 17:35, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- The stone is central to Islam. It's more of a focal point than Calvary is to Christianity. The relevance we need to determine is the relevance of this charming and enlightening anecdote to this topic, does it, the tale of the four-cornered blanket usually feature in articles of this size and scope? --Anthonyhcole (talk) 17:49, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- The story is only a small part of Black Stone, which is of interest as a central element of the Islamic faith. I don't think it's correct to infer that the article's page views are predominantly due to high interest in this particular story. --JN466 22:21, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- The stone is central to Islam. It's more of a focal point than Calvary is to Christianity. The relevance we need to determine is the relevance of this charming and enlightening anecdote to this topic, does it, the tale of the four-cornered blanket usually feature in articles of this size and scope? --Anthonyhcole (talk) 17:49, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- What's the worry with removing it? No one is putting the image up for deletion, and it can be added back. IMO, the only serious argument for keeping images of Muhammad (that offend some people) in the entry is to increase it's educational value. Images that depict scenes that aren't described in the entry clearly have no such value.Griswaldo (talk) 11:55, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- It's irrelevant, and doesn't belong here per WP:IUP. That may change once (a) the importance of the event has been established and consensus arrived at, and (b) a thoughtful, relevant mention has been added. I realise that may happen in a matter of hours or days, or it may never happen if, generally, it's not considered important enough to mention in most similar reliable sources. Right now, it's not compliant with policy. May I remove it until its relevance has been established? --Anthonyhcole (talk) 12:02, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- Per WP:BRD it should now stay until discussion has been given a reasonable chance. Given the number of active sections here, & the exhaustion of many of the regulars after so many thousands of words in the last 2 weeks or more, that should be a good few days, not 3 hours. Johnbod (talk) 13:19, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- A couple of days is fine. I've notified the regular editors here. Except one. (I just can't stand the noise.) --Anthonyhcole (talk) 15:14, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- I see two different ways that I'd like this resolved, and I don't greatly care which one people prefer. One would be to add in some context by mentioning the event itself. If we decide not to do that, I think it should be replaced with another image. I'm on an iPhone right now, so I can't really look for replacements, but I'll try to do that in the early afternoon EST. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 14:39, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks, Blade. Can you please explain for me what is the reasoning behind your proposition that, if this picture turns out to be unsuitable, we should replace it with another image? Is it because you want to maintain the same number of Muhammad pictures, or the same number of pictures in general? And, in either case, what's the rationale there? --Anthonyhcole (talk) 15:38, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- More images in general; if the paragraph stays, then it should be an image of Muhammad, but if we remove it then just a related image would be fine. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい)
- Actually, just so we're on the same page, per various policies, content needs to be relevant: i.e., related and important to the topic. Is there a particular part of the text that you believe needs an image to make it clearer? --Anthonyhcole (talk) 17:31, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- OK, I've had a chance to look at it from my regular computer screen, and now I can type normally. I think the best thing to do would be to move an existing image into the place where this one currently is; people have indicated we're a little calligraphy-heavy in spots, so we could perhaps stick one of those images there and balance it out a bit. I agree that if we remove the section on the black stone that this image should go as well (although it could certainly fit in Depictions of Muhammad, that would be a matter for the talkpage there). The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 20:25, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- Actually, just so we're on the same page, per various policies, content needs to be relevant: i.e., related and important to the topic. Is there a particular part of the text that you believe needs an image to make it clearer? --Anthonyhcole (talk) 17:31, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- More images in general; if the paragraph stays, then it should be an image of Muhammad, but if we remove it then just a related image would be fine. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい)
- Thanks, Blade. Can you please explain for me what is the reasoning behind your proposition that, if this picture turns out to be unsuitable, we should replace it with another image? Is it because you want to maintain the same number of Muhammad pictures, or the same number of pictures in general? And, in either case, what's the rationale there? --Anthonyhcole (talk) 15:38, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- As far as image by image discussion goes, I would note that there are probably too many images in this article (26 at last count), so an overall reduction may be warranted. Given that this incident is not currently covered in prose, this was an image I had figured could be removed. There is also a ridiculous number of calligraphic images that also need to be cut back. If we are not considering overall reduction/balance, and it is felt this image is unnecessary, I would like to see it replaced with another depiction. Resolute 14:45, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- Why's that? --Anthonyhcole (talk) 15:42, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- Balance of the debate. As I have stated on both your talk page and here, I favour an overall reduction of images. That would, one would expect, include a depiction. But I don't want to see a debate that simply removes this image, then another debate about too many images that attempts to axe another depiction. Resolute 16:02, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- I'm only trying to impose relevance here. My precise agenda, as you know (but I'm open to persuasion) is to have two very relevant and, incidentally, offensive images of Muhammad in the Western reception section, and one (or two, including one natural, if two looks OK) images of Muhammad in the Images section, and one or two images of Muhammad as flame or veiled elsewhere. But I haven't arrived at this number of depictions arbitrarily, it's the outcome of addressing the text. The above plan has the inestimable advantage over the present situation in that it only places natural depictions where they are deeply relevant, where they don't just illustrate what's in the text, but exemplify it.
- My objection to the present image use, and the objection of every person on this page with an objection, isn't that it offends Muslims, it is that it offends Muslims gratuitously, they're mere artists impressions, mostly misleading in terms of appearance and dress, of virtually no didactic value. I'm proposing an alternative that, sadly, will still offend some, but for a justifiable, compelling educational reason. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 17:15, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
Agree with Johnbod. I've added a paragraph on the Black Stone, and moved the image to there. Tom Harrison Talk 14:55, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks Tom. That looks good. I think the reference link in the caption is broken. Is it necessary, or will the reference cited in the text cover it? Could you please justify the addition of that text, in terms of importance? Only, it's been mentioned that this story was removed in the past because it is unimportant. Is this story usually included in scholarly or encyclopedia articles about Muhammad? I'm sure you'll understand I have a reasonable concern that that text has gone into this article in order to justify the insertion of a picture, rather than based on its own relevance. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 15:29, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- I am still good with removal even reading the black stones article directly I could see no reason to keep the entire section as more than a few lines in the life of muhammad. So as long as no one comes up with a good reason to keep it (I may have overlooked something - it happens) then I support removal of the picture in question. Tivanir2 (talk) 16:54, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- I have been asked to comment, but after reviewing the text and the discussion here I don't have strong views either way. I am only pleased that it is being discussed in a reasonable manner (surely due in part to the way Anthony began this thread). Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:21, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- I agree, it is a nice to see a bit of rationality that is absent elsewhere. As for the image, it seems that when this was up foe debate earlier this year, the general tone was that it was acceptable if there was mention of it in the article. I tend to agree with that sentiment. Tarc (talk) 17:33, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- I have been asked to comment, but after reviewing the text and the discussion here I don't have strong views either way. I am only pleased that it is being discussed in a reasonable manner (surely due in part to the way Anthony began this thread). Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:21, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- I am still good with removal even reading the black stones article directly I could see no reason to keep the entire section as more than a few lines in the life of muhammad. So as long as no one comes up with a good reason to keep it (I may have overlooked something - it happens) then I support removal of the picture in question. Tivanir2 (talk) 16:54, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
Anthonyhcole asked me to comment (I haven't had time to follow the intricacies of the wider debate recently). I'm in agreement with the majority above: if it's not covered in the article, we don't need a picture. Actually, I would go farther and say that if we do include it, but only do so at the level of 1 or two sentences, then it still needs to go, as it is not common practice to try to illustrate every point in the text. Plus, I'm with the group that says that the overall number of images (both figurative and non-) is too high. For me, any time an article ever has a substantive amount of text squeezed between two images (or an image on one side and an infobox on the other), then the article has too many images. Heck, I don't even think it's appropriate to have running images all the way down one side. As to whether or not the story itself belongs in the article and to what degree, I must simple bow out and say that I don't have the knowledge or the time to do the research necessary to make an informed comment on the point. Qwyrxian (talk) 23:45, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- Given the religious opposition to pictures, it seems as likely that in the past the incident was declared unimportant to justify removing the picture. Per Black stone in comparable works below, there are any number of comparably good articles this length that could be written on Muhammad. I don't think deciding what to include should be driven by whether or not that will lead to a picture of Muhammad. It seems to me we should include material and pictures or not on the same basis we would in Julius Caesar. Including pictures of Muhammad in the article about Muhammad needs no greater justification than including pictures anywhere else, though neither should we add pictures (here or anywhere) only to annoy people. The picture of Mount Uhud seems of little value. I don't see how it could increase the reader's understanding enough to justify its space. Likewise the picture of the Quran, and the multiple calligraphic representations. Any thoughts on those? The reference seems to work now; thanks to whoever fixed it. Tom Harrison Talk 01:42, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
- The text was removed by AAA765 (talk · contribs) in this major cleanup back in 2008, in response to a {{too long}} tag but they retained the image. So the image has been in article for three years without any relevance whatever. All the images you mention, are related to the topic but most, like most of the depictions of Muhammad, have no real educational value. But they do make the article look nice. I disagree with the removal of the landscapes, though. They, at least, tell us something about the actual topography and scale of the landscape in which the events described took place. I've restored them but am more than willing to discuss their relevance. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 02:54, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
- Sorry so long... very busy next few days, so, here's all my thoughts at once. Sure you all will work this out in the meantime
- On to the image at hand and the section removed. Here's my feelings. Some or all of which seem to be feelings in part by one or more. Some might not be. The text that is "missing" seems like a relevant event that should be in the article. As for the image, without the text, since it is a depiction of a historical event, I do not think it relevant to the article and should be removed. With the text, I'd like to see it stay, but it isn't a strong feeling.
- As for the removal reasons (too long): I personally (various of your opinions may vary) think that certain articles (such as Thomas Jefferson) should not be constrained by such. When a full fledged "sub-article" can be created, great... summarize and jump-link. But if not, on such an important figure as Jefferson, lobotomizing an article because of a guideline thatsuggests the article may be too long seems silly. Now, back to the topic at hand, now that my thoughts (and bias on the article length issue) are known. This article is about a very very important religious figure, and one of the most important religious figures in Islam. With my thoughts known on lobotomizing an article of someone important simply because of some suggestion in a guideline, I am guessing everyone can theorize I am for reinstating that section, as well as any other information of suitable historical importance that has been removed. IF the content is enough for a sub-article, then a "jump-link" to that before a short summary is great - if not, that's still no reason for not including any important historical event, even if it means a bit more work for all of us in reorganizing the article to flow a little better (currently engaged in just such an effort on another article, piece by piece - we just finished the lead and are moving on).
- Which brings us back to the image (to summarize): if we don't reinstate the text, I say delete it. It's not a depiction of (just) Muhammad - it is a depiction of a historical event with no relevant text to support its inclusion. If we doreinstate the text, I'd be for leaving the image - but not strongly so. In that respect, for those who are more knowledgeable on the topic than my memory of my studies from years ago, I'd leave that to your judgement to determine how important the historical event is. Inotherwords, let's say it was a biography of Jefferson; I'd fully expect there not to be a picture of him eating breakfast by himself on a regular morning, even if there was a blurb about "Jefferson ate breakfast in the morning - he enjoyed (whatever) with each such meal". Not a big deal, don't need an image of it. So, I'd say if you all deem the event is of historical importance, we should leave the image (with text reinstated), if of minorimportance and the text is reinstated, image, no image, whatever - I've got no real feelings either way. What's sad is I actually extensively studied this stuff - and then my computer and other careers took off and I've let all of that lapse. :-/ Best, ROBERTMFROMLI |TK/CN 06:27, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
- Anthony posits that the picture was made irrelevant by the removal of the text three years ago. I don't think that is the only way to look at this. I think it just as likely the editors thought the incident relevant and decided to represent it pictorially instead of in writing. Perhaps, they should have left in a sentence about it, too. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:36, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
- Alas, IUP and MOS\Images indicate requirements that images are relevant to the article topic or the text. In this case, the article topic is Muhammad and not "The Black Stone", thus making depictions of Muhammad (that fit within the rest of the policies and guidelines) relevant by nature of what they depict. I'm still firmly of the opinion that an image of a historical event isn't relevant to an article not about that event unless that event (for relevant reasons) is mentioned in sufficient detail to allow an image. Inotherwords, a single sentence (to me) does not create a reason - and no text on the historical event creates to relevant reasons for including the image in an article that isn't really about the event itself. But that's my interpretation of this issue. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 18:39, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
- I did not understand this. In a biography, if a picture is of the person, does it somehow become irrelevant because it also depicts an event? Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:32, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
- My opinion would be that the picture is of a historical event, and happens to include the person (and possibly other people). Thus, the key element of the picture is that it is of a historical event - with the "relationship" element being that the person happens to be in it. Inotherwords, each picture has a point of most significance/relevance - in this case, the historical event depicted. Per IUP and MOS\Images, whatever is the primary depiction factor should be relevant to either (a) the article, or (b) the section. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 22:28, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
- Interesting, but I am having a hard time thinking the artist painted that event (or anyone would care), if not for the importance of the central character, he chose to portray in his picture. Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:42, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
- My opinion would be that the picture is of a historical event, and happens to include the person (and possibly other people). Thus, the key element of the picture is that it is of a historical event - with the "relationship" element being that the person happens to be in it. Inotherwords, each picture has a point of most significance/relevance - in this case, the historical event depicted. Per IUP and MOS\Images, whatever is the primary depiction factor should be relevant to either (a) the article, or (b) the section. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 22:28, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
- I did not understand this. In a biography, if a picture is of the person, does it somehow become irrelevant because it also depicts an event? Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:32, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
- Alas, IUP and MOS\Images indicate requirements that images are relevant to the article topic or the text. In this case, the article topic is Muhammad and not "The Black Stone", thus making depictions of Muhammad (that fit within the rest of the policies and guidelines) relevant by nature of what they depict. I'm still firmly of the opinion that an image of a historical event isn't relevant to an article not about that event unless that event (for relevant reasons) is mentioned in sufficient detail to allow an image. Inotherwords, a single sentence (to me) does not create a reason - and no text on the historical event creates to relevant reasons for including the image in an article that isn't really about the event itself. But that's my interpretation of this issue. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 18:39, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
- Anthony posits that the picture was made irrelevant by the removal of the text three years ago. I don't think that is the only way to look at this. I think it just as likely the editors thought the incident relevant and decided to represent it pictorially instead of in writing. Perhaps, they should have left in a sentence about it, too. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:36, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
- The text was removed by AAA765 (talk · contribs) in this major cleanup back in 2008, in response to a {{too long}} tag but they retained the image. So the image has been in article for three years without any relevance whatever. All the images you mention, are related to the topic but most, like most of the depictions of Muhammad, have no real educational value. But they do make the article look nice. I disagree with the removal of the landscapes, though. They, at least, tell us something about the actual topography and scale of the landscape in which the events described took place. I've restored them but am more than willing to discuss their relevance. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 02:54, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
Doesn't matter why they painted it - it matters what it is. It is a picture of a historical event that happens to have Muhammad in it (central figure or not). Inotherwords, it's not "here's a picture of Muhammad" (that was not the artist's intent). It is instead "here's a picture of a historical event that centers around Muhammad". And alas, policy and guidelines constrain such use (and I think my understanding of it is pretty accurate - as others seem to agree). Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 23:23, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
Black stone in comparable works
I've been rooting around on the web, & I must say have found plenty of accounts of the early life that are either a good deal longer or shorter than ours, but none really comparable in length. I've noticed there is very little consistency, even in considerably longer accounts. Incidents like Bahira (who we mention; his article gets only 2K hits per month) and his uncle's well (which we don't seem to cover anywhere that I can see) are either given at some length or omitted completely, and the accounts of the Mi'raj are wildly variable in length and completeness. On the whole, as in this article, the space devoted even in full length biographies to the first 40 years of his life is remarkably little (there are exceptions). There is no consistent attitude to what is admittedly a difficult range of source material, with few universally accepted elements and some that even few modern Muslim scholars seem to regard as not likely to be true. So I think this comparison will be unlikely to produce a clear result. On the whole, we seem to cover his first 40 years pretty rapidly, & I would lean in favour of some additions. Johnbod (talk) 20:58, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- Encyclopedia Britannica includes the event in the entry on "Muhammad." The Cambridge Companion to Muhammad doesn't mention it. Brill's Encyclopedia of Islam doesn't mention it in their "Muhammad" entry. Britannica is closest to us in type, and in size, but it's odd that the other sources, which treat much more information about Muhammad, don't include the event.Griswaldo (talk) 21:16, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- Actually the Encyclopedia of Islam may be referring to the story when it says, "Equally little confidence is to be placed in the story of the part said to have been played by Muḥammad in rebuilding the Kaʿba," which would support John's point about scholars questioning the veracity of the story. If that is the case I wonder if we ought to include it here.Griswaldo (talk) 21:24, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- I think you'll find the Bahira story is equally questioned by some, and often omitted. As I say, there seems no unanimity in what is included - a striking contrast to the early life of Jesus, where a few incidents are in the gospels, and other stories were stamped on hard relatively early on, and excluded from the main tradition, only surviving in things like the Protevangelium of James. Johnbod (talk) 23:58, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- If Britannica mentions it that's good enough for me. It's a delightful story that, apocryphal or not, is an important enough element of the tradition for mention in an encyclopedia, so I have no problem with us mentioning it.
- I think you'll find the Bahira story is equally questioned by some, and often omitted. As I say, there seems no unanimity in what is included - a striking contrast to the early life of Jesus, where a few incidents are in the gospels, and other stories were stamped on hard relatively early on, and excluded from the main tradition, only surviving in things like the Protevangelium of James. Johnbod (talk) 23:58, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- Actually the Encyclopedia of Islam may be referring to the story when it says, "Equally little confidence is to be placed in the story of the part said to have been played by Muḥammad in rebuilding the Kaʿba," which would support John's point about scholars questioning the veracity of the story. If that is the case I wonder if we ought to include it here.Griswaldo (talk) 21:24, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
- Now we need to seriously address the question of educational value. Leaving aside the fact that we happen to have such an image at hand (that's no argument for inclusion), that images make articles more readable (there is no shortage of images) that this image is a fine representation of the art of this era or that tradition (this is not an article or section on art, or depictions of Muhammad), does this artist's impression increase the reader's understanding of this event enough to justify the limited space it takes up? How does it add to the reader's understanding of the event? Does it mislead the reader?
- Please understand I'm not on a campaign of stripping images of Muhammad out of this article. I want to ensure all image use here is relevant and as educationally potent as possible. I argue (above) there are much more useful, educational and relevant images of Muhammad that deserve inclusion here. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 01:19, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
General discussion of present image use
- There's four fewer pictures: an open Quran, redundant calligraphy, and two landscapes that might be anywhere.[28] Please restore any that should be kept. Tom Harrison Talk 01:54, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
- I restored the landscapes, per thread above this. I'm unsure about the calligraphy and Koran. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 02:54, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
- The calligraphy is useful, as that is how Muhammad's name is written in full. I would consider the Quran image one of the most essential images in the article (even given that we have an image of a page in the Quran further down), and where it was it related to the text. Restored. --JN466 03:10, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
- I think the name calligraphy, a strong & certainly key image, could go lower down the page, where there are actually sparsely illustrated stretches. I didn't think that half-open Quran image was optimal. Personally I'd go for a single early Kufic page at this point (example shown). Johnbod (talk) 03:20, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
- I've redistributed the navigation templates on the right-hand side, putting each into the section it relates to; they are no longer bunched up the way they were. I've deleted one such navigation template: the one on wives of Muhammad. All the wives are listed in the infobox, so there is no loss of information. I've moved some images as well, always keeping in mind that they should relate to the content of the relevant sections. For example, the image of the Medina mosque containing his tomb was at the beginning of the Life section, i.e. the section on Mecca; I've moved it to the section covering his death. The images are now better distributed. --JN466 04:17, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
- I agree the Kufic page would be a nice image to have, but I would suggest that a contemporary image of the Quran is essential. The Quran has a more immediate significance to Muhammad and contemporary Islam than the Bible has to Jesus and contemporary Christianity. Muhammad "is" the Quran in a way that would not apply to Jesus and the New Testament; partly because it's his own words, rather than a collection of third-party accounts. How about adding the Kufic image where the Quran image is now, and moving the Quran image to the legacy section? --JN466 04:36, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
- I think the name calligraphy, a strong & certainly key image, could go lower down the page, where there are actually sparsely illustrated stretches. I didn't think that half-open Quran image was optimal. Personally I'd go for a single early Kufic page at this point (example shown). Johnbod (talk) 03:20, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
- The calligraphy is useful, as that is how Muhammad's name is written in full. I would consider the Quran image one of the most essential images in the article (even given that we have an image of a page in the Quran further down), and where it was it related to the text. Restored. --JN466 03:10, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
- I restored the landscapes, per thread above this. I'm unsure about the calligraphy and Koran. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 02:54, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
- There's four fewer pictures: an open Quran, redundant calligraphy, and two landscapes that might be anywhere.[28] Please restore any that should be kept. Tom Harrison Talk 01:54, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
I noticed that there are numerous images of the Prophet Muhammad in the article Mahomet on fr.wikipedia.org. Did somebody suggest otherwise? Personally, if images are to be chosen, I would hope that at least one could be of the Night Journey through the Seven Heavens on the mythical steed Buraq, such as this veiled one File:Miraj_by_Sultan_Muhammad.jpg, a featured image on the Turkish wikipedia, used in the French article and numerous other articles. (There is also an unveiled image File:Muhammad_1514.jpg from the Metropolitan Museum of Art.) There are plenty of sources that describe these images. which were frequently fontispieces in illuminated manuscripts. The section on "Religious painting in the Islamic period" by historian of Islamic art Ernst J. Grube in the book Peerless Images: Persian Painting and its Sources (Yale University Press) contains a number of descriptions of several of the miniatures in the Bibliothèque Nationale de France. There are a large number of images available on their website.[29] Here is one of the images there from a whole volume illustrating the Night Journey. [30] Mathsci (talk) 07:03, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
- I have uploaded that last image here File:Miraj-BNF-1436.jpg. It is image 20 on the online guided tour of the BNF exhibition above. There a French lady can be heard discussing the miniature at great length. Mathsci (talk) 07:27, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
- Here are other plates from the same manuscript: [31][32][33][34][35][36][37][38][39][40][41][42][43][44][45][46][47][48][49][50][51][52][53][54][55][56][57][58][59][60]. Mathsci (talk) 08:43, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
- Paintings and sources focused on them do exist, but let's not lose sight of the big picture. See e.g. [61] / [62], also [63] / [64] --JN466 11:56, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
- Above Jayen466 has suggested using "Islam for dummies" as a source while at the same time dismissing Ernst J. Grube, the eminent historian of Islamic art. That seems contrary to wikipedia policy on secondary sources. Could he please explain what is going on? Mathsci (talk) 21:52, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
- Islam for Dummies, despite the engaging title, is published by John Wiley & Sons, which is a scientific publisher, and written by Malcolm Clark, a professor of religion (A.B., Harvard College; B.D., M.A., Ph.D., Yale Divinity School; Post-doctoral study at Hebrew University, Israel Biblical Studies, Islam, Religion and Gender, American Religion). It is a best-seller and required reading for American army officers—a good general source that gives a useful overview to inform our talk page discussion. I don't think I suggested citing it for anything, though it clearly meets RS. The other source I linked to is by Kees Wagtendonk, from Amsterdam University, and one of the foremost European experts on Islam. It is entirely proper for historians of art to be interested in depictions of Muhammad. It's a notable topic in its own right. But none of these historians of art would argue that these images reflect the Islamic mainstream. They are all aware that such images are (comparatively) rare, and that the Islamic tradition is generally word-based, with calligraphy as its main artistic medium of visual expression. Grube himself, in the book you mentioned, states: "Yet for many reasons, a fully developed Muslim iconography – in the sense that the West would understand it – never emerged in Islamic culture, although representations of Muhammad comprise a special category of Muslim religious painting that developed within the framework of Islamic art ... And however unexpectedly the image may appear, there are also illustrated Muslim texts that deal specifically with the life of the Prophet and, even more astonishingly, with the metaphysical and highly mysterious mi'raj, the journey made by the Prophet during the course of just one night through all the Heavens and into Hell ... Islam, by contrast, never officially adopted a figural religious iconography; indeed, the very lawfulness of images was hotly debated in the early Islamic centuries. In mosques there are no cycles of paintings illustrating the prophet's life and deeds comparable to those of the life of Christ or the saints in Christian churches or, for that matter, the life of the Buddha in Buddhist temples ..." (p. 133). It's iconic, not unexpected images that we are interested in in a high-level article like this, just as we use iconic images in the articles on other religious founders. --JN466 23:30, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
- Above Jayen466 has suggested using "Islam for dummies" as a source while at the same time dismissing Ernst J. Grube, the eminent historian of Islamic art. That seems contrary to wikipedia policy on secondary sources. Could he please explain what is going on? Mathsci (talk) 21:52, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
- One interesting thing about the night flight image uploaded and the sources Jayen mentions, is that the image appears to be Ottoman (likely Sunni audience) and not Persian or Moghul. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:48, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
- If you mean the BnF ones Mathsci links above, In fact the MS is Persian/Afghan, Herat 1436 [65], but yes Sunni (the Persian rulers were Sunni at this period & until after 1502). There are plenty of Ottoman and Sunni illustrated Mi'raj manuscripts. Johnbod (talk) 16:43, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, I saw that it was from Harat but I thought that Tamerlane's empire was Turkish, although he did rule over Persia, and I was noting that the illustration was captioned in Turk (and Arabic) and thus, not clearly directed at Persians. And perhaps I misunderstood that some were saying, that images were limited to Persian Shias or to the later Mogul Empire (1526).Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:02, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
- It is in Turkish/Uighur, Arabic & also Persian, reflecting the mix of languages used in the Timurid courts. There is indeed a common misconception limiting such images to Shia use. In fact surviving historic images - Persian and Turkish mainly, are more often from a Sunni context, though modern images of Muhammad are nearly all Shia. Ottoman ones are more common than Mughal - but both are Sunni dynasties with few Shias at court. Johnbod (talk) 17:56, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks. If the captions on the night journey photograph include languages other than those listed, when it was uploaded, would you be willing to clarify the description? Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:32, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
- If I may make a suggestion on the picture of the koran. Instead can we find an actually closed koran with the front script shown? From the view on the open one you can't make anything out and it looks like it could be any book in existence. Tivanir2 (talk) 17:45, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
- If you do a Google Image search for Quran, you'll find it's customarily depicted with its pages open. It's the pages that show Muhammad's words, not the cover. --JN466 00:39, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
- It might be a good idea to get a picture of one from (at the very least) a better angle. The one in the article has a somewhat off-kilter perspective; if we want a picture of the koran open, we could at least try to get a shot of it from straight above or standing directly in front of it. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 16:01, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
- If you do a Google Image search for Quran, you'll find it's customarily depicted with its pages open. It's the pages that show Muhammad's words, not the cover. --JN466 00:39, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
- It is in Turkish/Uighur, Arabic & also Persian, reflecting the mix of languages used in the Timurid courts. There is indeed a common misconception limiting such images to Shia use. In fact surviving historic images - Persian and Turkish mainly, are more often from a Sunni context, though modern images of Muhammad are nearly all Shia. Ottoman ones are more common than Mughal - but both are Sunni dynasties with few Shias at court. Johnbod (talk) 17:56, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, I saw that it was from Harat but I thought that Tamerlane's empire was Turkish, although he did rule over Persia, and I was noting that the illustration was captioned in Turk (and Arabic) and thus, not clearly directed at Persians. And perhaps I misunderstood that some were saying, that images were limited to Persian Shias or to the later Mogul Empire (1526).Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:02, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
- If you mean the BnF ones Mathsci links above, In fact the MS is Persian/Afghan, Herat 1436 [65], but yes Sunni (the Persian rulers were Sunni at this period & until after 1502). There are plenty of Ottoman and Sunni illustrated Mi'raj manuscripts. Johnbod (talk) 16:43, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
- Paintings and sources focused on them do exist, but let's not lose sight of the big picture. See e.g. [61] / [62], also [63] / [64] --JN466 11:56, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
- Here are other plates from the same manuscript: [31][32][33][34][35][36][37][38][39][40][41][42][43][44][45][46][47][48][49][50][51][52][53][54][55][56][57][58][59][60]. Mathsci (talk) 08:43, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
This page is strange
As far as I see, all the images of other articles (Jesus, Buddha, Confucius, etc) in the info box are paintings or photos. This article is the only article on wikipedia that presents just a written name as the infobox image. 203.81.67.182 (talk) 16:35, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
- It's because that is the most common visual representation of Muhammad, and WP should try to use such a depiction in the infobox (just like how we prefer infobox pictures of sports stars to have them either playing or at least in uniform, when we can get them). There are paintings of Muhammad's body further down in the article. Qwyrxian (talk) 01:14, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
I agree, you should also add a picture of Muhammad in the infobox, the same way you did for Jesus, Buddha, etc... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.176.99.42 (talk) 22:17, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
- Using the same logic, one could say that the most common visual representation of anyone is their name in writing, rather than a picture. In fact, it is patently clear Muhammad is treated as a special case here, so as not to offend Muslims. ðarkuncoll 15:13, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
- Actually, it's not at all for that reason. If we didn't want to offend Muslims, we wouldn't include the Prophet's picture anywhere in the article, but, of course, we do. We get people commenting here every few days telling us that we have to remove the pictures of Muhammad because they are false and not allowed, and we tell them every time that we don't follow their rules. No Muslim is going to say "Well, it's okay to use the image, so long as its not the lead image of the article". They either accept or reject images of Muhammad entirely. The image in the infobox is not Muhammad's name in writing. It's the image you would see of Muhammad if he were depicted in art. It's not like it's just "Muhammad" in 12 point Times. Qwyrxian (talk) 23:33, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
- That argument is just plain silly all the current "image does is prove you can write Mohamed in calligraphy and make it look stylized and it is clearly an unsuccessful attempt to appease the religious fanatics, a proper image was in that box for years, there is no credible reason other than appeasement that it has been changed. This place used to be proud to resist censorship, not ant more — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.178.163.174 (talk) 16:58, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
- Actually, it's not at all for that reason. If we didn't want to offend Muslims, we wouldn't include the Prophet's picture anywhere in the article, but, of course, we do. We get people commenting here every few days telling us that we have to remove the pictures of Muhammad because they are false and not allowed, and we tell them every time that we don't follow their rules. No Muslim is going to say "Well, it's okay to use the image, so long as its not the lead image of the article". They either accept or reject images of Muhammad entirely. The image in the infobox is not Muhammad's name in writing. It's the image you would see of Muhammad if he were depicted in art. It's not like it's just "Muhammad" in 12 point Times. Qwyrxian (talk) 23:33, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
- Using the same logic, one could say that the most common visual representation of anyone is their name in writing, rather than a picture. In fact, it is patently clear Muhammad is treated as a special case here, so as not to offend Muslims. ðarkuncoll 15:13, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
Given that both sides of the argument are offended by the current article's content, I believe we have reached a fair and balanced approach. Singularity42 (talk) 17:07, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
- Good way to look at it. Everybody gets equal treatment! ~Amatulić (talk) 17:13, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
The most common "image" or representation of Muhammad in the world today is the calligraphy version, so I see no problem in using that at the top of the article. Note also that the God article has no image at the top, even though many suitable, classic images exist, some of which are used in the article. Rklawton (talk) 17:15, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
- Agreed. And I think the article reflects a well thought out compromise on the issue. One the one hand, Wikipedia is not censored and how Muhammad has been depicted historically is of encylopedic value. On the other hand, there is no policy that a historical painting of the subject should be at the top of the page in the Infobox, and the most common modern representation of the subject is the version currently in the Infobox. Singularity42 (talk) 17:25, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
- It's not an artistic depiction it's just written words in a foreign language , it is still just written words even if added to paintings often. By the above logic all info-boxes should not be photographs but copies of the written word that have been published in newspapers as these are most common way of representing the subject. It's amazing how the need to appease overrules common scene in this PC world — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.178.163.174 (talk) 17:48, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
- You're not understanding. It's not "added to paintings." It is the painting most commonly used for Muhammad. If you took all of the artistic renderings of Muhammad in the world, and counted them, you'd find (warning: completely made-up statistic coming) that 99% of them look like our infobox, and well less than 1% like the images farther down the page. As a good comparison: the picture on Jesus is absolutely not what he actually looked like (the image is too European, and, of course, he didn't actually walk around with a halo shining behind him). Nonetheless, its a very good representative of how Jesus is normally depicted in art. And, again, your PC argument fails miserably, because if we really were being "PC" (which, btw, is considered an offensive term by many) then we wouldn't have any pictures of Muhammad in the article. In any event, this issue has a very strong consensus, so your desire to replace it with a image is about as likely to succeed as the desire of others to remove all of the images in the article. Qwyrxian (talk) 00:55, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
- "Added to paintings" "is the painting" whatever, it is still just a word in a foreign language and in that case has no artistic element, it's just type not art so your comparisons to the Jesus article are completely irrelevant, no misunderstanding on my part, just a reply that willfully ignores the issue and facts of the matter. and I am afraid my PC arguments do add up as the format of the article would not have been changed if there was a desire to appease and in doing so finding a PC compromise and further just because "In any event, this issue has a very strong consensus, so your desire to replace it with a image is about as likely to succeed as the desire of others to remove all of the images in the article." does not meed I should be dissuaded from raising an issue your post does attempt to do this and is not really in the spirit of a reasonable discussion. If you must reply please address the isues raised rather than willfuly ignore the issue posted about just to get the last word — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.178.169.30 (talk) 03:54, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
- And I have to say comments like "wrong again" in the page history section are immature and not constructive is there not a basic civility code in force in this place to stop posts like that? can I respond by saying grow up? or does that make me ass bad as the poster of the imature comment? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.178.169.30 (talk) 04:09, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
- The issue is that you're wrong. And, no, saying that is in no way a violation of WP:CIVIL. It's pointing out that you are still misunderstanding the image. It's not just a word in another language. It is a very ornate and specialized calligraphic representation of that word (that is, if you simply looked in a normal copy of the Qu'ran, that is not how it would look). My point on the consensus issue was perhaps a bit strong, but I guess what I'm trying to say is that you're going to need an extraordinarily strong argument to reverse a very well held consensus than just saying that we're "PC". In any event, I don't think I have anything else to add unless you have some new evidence or line of argument. Qwyrxian (talk) 05:04, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
- Actually I am not wrong and the manner in which you put "wrong again" (hidden in the page history) was very much uncivil and immature, if you have a point here is the place to put it. I as I have said above "all the current image does is prove you can write Mohamed in calligraphy and make it look stylized" can you not see this? it is still not artwork just text again no mistake of the nature of the image (why is there a need to claim I misunderstand the image?) (please can you let that sink in your brain before further comment), and again and again you ignore the issue being raised use logical fallacies like straw man and contribute nothing to the argument except show a need to get the last word, I'll say again to try and communicate to you If you must reply please address the issues raised rather than willfully ignore the issue posted about just to get the last word. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.9.235 (talk) 12:03, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
- the latest coment inj the page history is "sigh" how is that a constructive comment? that is clearly uncivil and immature, i'll say again is there not a basic civility code in force in this place to stop posts like that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.9.235 (talk) 12:07, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
- The issue is that you're wrong. And, no, saying that is in no way a violation of WP:CIVIL. It's pointing out that you are still misunderstanding the image. It's not just a word in another language. It is a very ornate and specialized calligraphic representation of that word (that is, if you simply looked in a normal copy of the Qu'ran, that is not how it would look). My point on the consensus issue was perhaps a bit strong, but I guess what I'm trying to say is that you're going to need an extraordinarily strong argument to reverse a very well held consensus than just saying that we're "PC". In any event, I don't think I have anything else to add unless you have some new evidence or line of argument. Qwyrxian (talk) 05:04, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
- And I have to say comments like "wrong again" in the page history section are immature and not constructive is there not a basic civility code in force in this place to stop posts like that? can I respond by saying grow up? or does that make me ass bad as the poster of the imature comment? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.178.169.30 (talk) 04:09, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
- "Added to paintings" "is the painting" whatever, it is still just a word in a foreign language and in that case has no artistic element, it's just type not art so your comparisons to the Jesus article are completely irrelevant, no misunderstanding on my part, just a reply that willfully ignores the issue and facts of the matter. and I am afraid my PC arguments do add up as the format of the article would not have been changed if there was a desire to appease and in doing so finding a PC compromise and further just because "In any event, this issue has a very strong consensus, so your desire to replace it with a image is about as likely to succeed as the desire of others to remove all of the images in the article." does not meed I should be dissuaded from raising an issue your post does attempt to do this and is not really in the spirit of a reasonable discussion. If you must reply please address the isues raised rather than willfuly ignore the issue posted about just to get the last word — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.178.169.30 (talk) 03:54, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
- You're not understanding. It's not "added to paintings." It is the painting most commonly used for Muhammad. If you took all of the artistic renderings of Muhammad in the world, and counted them, you'd find (warning: completely made-up statistic coming) that 99% of them look like our infobox, and well less than 1% like the images farther down the page. As a good comparison: the picture on Jesus is absolutely not what he actually looked like (the image is too European, and, of course, he didn't actually walk around with a halo shining behind him). Nonetheless, its a very good representative of how Jesus is normally depicted in art. And, again, your PC argument fails miserably, because if we really were being "PC" (which, btw, is considered an offensive term by many) then we wouldn't have any pictures of Muhammad in the article. In any event, this issue has a very strong consensus, so your desire to replace it with a image is about as likely to succeed as the desire of others to remove all of the images in the article. Qwyrxian (talk) 00:55, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
- It's not an artistic depiction it's just written words in a foreign language , it is still just written words even if added to paintings often. By the above logic all info-boxes should not be photographs but copies of the written word that have been published in newspapers as these are most common way of representing the subject. It's amazing how the need to appease overrules common scene in this PC world — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.178.163.174 (talk) 17:48, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
The arguments concerning popularity of usage are specious. Otherwise, for example, Jesus would be represented with the ☧ symbol, rather than a picture. Artistic representations of Jesus are certainly common, but the ☧ (chi rho) symbol is far more common, considering its usage on coins, etc. ðarkuncoll 16:23, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
- When most Christian artists go about making a painting of Jesus, they paint the current European, haloed image. They do not paint the chi-rho symbol. When most Budhist artists go about making a painting of Buddah, they usually paint the sitting cross-legged, meditating image. They do not paint a version of the name "Buddah". When most Muslim artists go about making a painting of Muhammad, they usually paint an artistic, caligriphay version of his name. It is the most common image that representes the subject. Singularity42 (talk) 22:27, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
- No, I'm afraid you're wrong. The ☧ symbol has been used far more often to represent Jesus than any picture of him. It has been used on untold thousands, perhaps millions, of coins, for example. You are making artificial distinctions in order to justify the current position, rather than looking at all the evidence. ðarkuncoll 23:41, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
- Where do you get that info, exactly? Where is that evidence of the symbol being used more than the image? You kind of have to back statements like that up on Wikipedia. —Digital Jedi Master (talk) 01:23, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
- That is just stylized writing not art, therefore the creators are not artists just people writing, my doctors handwriting would not normally be considered art a new definition of art applicable to only Muslims has been created here in order to appease in this special case . furtherer the current image does not even show a painting, no artist is listed in the image file, no original work seems to exist in a gallery or collection. it is not a reproduced work of art.
- To TharkunColl: Interestingly, ten years ago, I would have recognized Jesus by one of the stylized images long before I recognized him by the symbol. I suspect for those who would recognize Muhammad by either, the symbol would be recognized more than largely varying artists interpretations. Just my opinion though. ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 23:56, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
- That is just stylized writing not art, therefore the creators are not artists just people writing, my doctors handwriting would not normally be considered art a new definition of art applicable to only Muslims has been created here in order to appease in this special case . furtherer the current image does not even show a painting, no artist is listed in the image file, no original work seems to exist in a gallery or collection. it is not a reproduced work of art.
Maybe a little history might help here. People who joined up in the last couple years might not realize this, but a lot of us had to fight for years to get any pictures of Muhammad displayed. It was a long, hard argument, but we did finally win. Before that, the consensus was to not display pictures, and anyone adding them would be reverted as quickly as people removing them now.
So when the consensus was finally changed, it ended up being something of a compromise that the images would be added, but kept "below the fold", so to speak. It may well have been an unspoken compromise, but I think everyone was basically tired of fighting at that point. So none of us pro-image folks really kept fighting to have the images higher up, because we'd won on the main issue.
It's not ideal, and I agree with the original poster that an image should be at the top of the page, just like for anyone else. But if one side got everything they wanted, it wouldn't be a compromise; it's only a compromise once everyone's unhappy.—Chowbok ☠ 18:29, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
- I definitely agree it is not ideal. We should never be compromising core principles/tenets of Wikipedia. Either they get changed, or they get unilaterally and indisciminately applied. At least that's my opinion. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 20:32, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
- Chowbok that's not a history I have witnessed, the image of Mohammed was in that infobox for years and the core principle of no censorship was observed. the religionists were correctly ignored. It does not make sense to change wikipedia's core principles to appease religionists just because it's perceived as easier. All the current situation shows is that a special case has been made, it looks wrong, is inconsistent and no amount of false reasoning (as witnessed above) will change this — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.178.160.10 (talk) 21:13, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
- We're not say "how is Muhammad represented". The question is, as an image, as art, as a visual medium, how is Muhammad represented, and the answer is, "As a special form of calligraphy". If you went looking for actual images of Muhammad, you'd find, as far as I can tell based on having looked at this and related pages, less than 100 in the world. Total. However, you would find hundreds of thousands, if not more, of stylized, specially formatted, calligraphic representations of Muhammad. Let me draw an analogy: the company IBM, for its trademark/logo, uses a special calligraphic representation of the letters IBM (see File:IBM logo.svg). That's the image we use in the infobox of IBM, because that's the image that the company uses to represent themselves. We don't pick out a picture of their corporate headquarters, or use the original logo (see File:Original IBM Logo.png) just because it's more of a "picture", or anything else. Of course, there is no such thing as an "official" picture of Muhammad (or, really, most people except for maybe some politicians). But there is an image that represents,
by a majorityby a super-majorityalmost 100% of the time. I also argue that this is exactly like the fact that we use a European-looking Jesus in Jesus, rather than one that is "historically accurate". Now, I could be wrong, so go ahead and start up an RfC or some other similar form of dispute resolution. And I apologize if my words have been blunt, but to me changing the infobox image to a non-calligraphic painting of Muhammad would actually be a violation of Wikipedia core policies, not the other way areound as IP has presented it; this just seems blindingly obvious to me, which is why my words have been strong. Qwyrxian (talk) 01:13, 7 October 2011 (UTC)- Now, THAT makes perfect sense. As indicated above, I can buy into it wholeheartedly. And in following the examples we used, I betcha that if I lined up 100 images of Jesus, they'd all look relatively the same (minus some small amount of artistic license) - but if I lined up 100 images of Muhammad, they'd all look very different (as this very article demonstrates). Also, as Muhammad is, to a larger extent, a topic that is discussed (etc) largely by those of the Islamic faith (which is quite large in numbers), I could easily see a calligraphic representation as being the most prevalent. In such case, I think Qwyrxian has hit the head right on the nail - using something other than such a representation would be against policies and guidelines. So, if that is the reasoning applied to choosing the infobox image, I'm all for leaving it. If that isn't the reason, but is still a valid reason, then I am still all for leaving it. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 02:50, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
- Moore false reasoning the IBM logo is made to be EXACTLY the same and reproduceable many times it's not intended that people construct the IBM Logo by hand, writing isn't like that, more false reasoning to justify the special treatment given to this case, again Qwyrxian words have not been blunt but childish and immature a big difference that most people could see and no matter how much Qwyrxian ignores that fact and calls his behavior something else it still remains uncivil. and unjustifiable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.29.107.64 (talk) 22:39, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
- You're the only one being uncivil in this thread.—Chowbok ☠ 03:24, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
- I don't know how you can construct that comment from what has been posted above, it's just that certain people with an agenda do not like being presented with the facts. It wasn't me who posted "sigh" but you choose not to see that because you do not like the facts I state — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.29.224.56 (talk) 21:32, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
- Enough of the uncivil remarks. Your original topic has been answered to, you have no reason to comment further, you just seem to be attacking people now. --Nutthida (talk) 00:36, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
- I actually agree with you and not Qwyrxian on the main issue. That doesn't change the fact that Qwyrxian has been exceedingly patient and courteous, and you have frequently been rude and accusing him of bad faith.—Chowbok ☠ 03:12, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
- There was no uncivil remarks coming from me I did not put "Sigh" If I have been blunt well I guess i thought that it was normal around here or is it that there one rule for people who agree with you and another for those that do not? Guess so given that post. you actually do not comment on the issues and you just seem to be attacking people now and your post is hyporcritical. The actual fact is that the origional topic has not been answered far from it infact. there is no credible reason other than apeasement of religionists that a proper image should be shown in the infobox. as for "Qwyrxian has been exceedingly patient and courteous" how does that square with the "sigh" post selective reading does seem to be at play here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.31.64.122 (talk) 17:01, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
- I'm sorry that you felt that my "sigh" was uncivil. In my past experience, I've never had anyone take a term of that nature as uncivil. I don't understand why it bothers you. It certainly wasn't attacking you in any way. If you want to pursue my remarks further, you should probably do so at WP:WQA, which is our usual forum for discussing issues of incivility; in fairness, you should know that if you do so, your own behavior can come under scrutiny. If you want to pursue the actual issue of the image further, since there seems to be a general consensus supporting the current image, you'll need to pursue dispute resolution. Qwyrxian (talk) 08:54, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
- And besides, the image discussion page is thataway → Talk:Muhammad/images.
- ~Amatulić (talk) 15:57, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
- I really don't see how "sigh" could be interpreted any other way but an uncivil remark, I can not see another point to be made from this remark and I have to say that after the amounts of posts on this page it's a bit late to show a redirect to another page. there may be a general consensus supporting the current image amongst religionists and those guided by appeasement rather than wikipedia's core values but that isn't actually a genuine consensus — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.31.89.148 (talk) 16:43, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
- What is "genuine" consensus, in your opinion? One that agrees with your viewpoint? This issue has been discussed to death repeatedly. I appreciate that you may be new to the conversation, but this is not a new or novel question. If I may be very frank, I do not anticipate that you or anyone else commenting here has anything new to add to the discussion -- thus, the "sigh". – Luna Santin (talk) 21:59, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
- I really don't see how "sigh" could be interpreted any other way but an uncivil remark, I can not see another point to be made from this remark and I have to say that after the amounts of posts on this page it's a bit late to show a redirect to another page. there may be a general consensus supporting the current image amongst religionists and those guided by appeasement rather than wikipedia's core values but that isn't actually a genuine consensus — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.31.89.148 (talk) 16:43, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
- I'm sorry that you felt that my "sigh" was uncivil. In my past experience, I've never had anyone take a term of that nature as uncivil. I don't understand why it bothers you. It certainly wasn't attacking you in any way. If you want to pursue my remarks further, you should probably do so at WP:WQA, which is our usual forum for discussing issues of incivility; in fairness, you should know that if you do so, your own behavior can come under scrutiny. If you want to pursue the actual issue of the image further, since there seems to be a general consensus supporting the current image, you'll need to pursue dispute resolution. Qwyrxian (talk) 08:54, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
- There was no uncivil remarks coming from me I did not put "Sigh" If I have been blunt well I guess i thought that it was normal around here or is it that there one rule for people who agree with you and another for those that do not? Guess so given that post. you actually do not comment on the issues and you just seem to be attacking people now and your post is hyporcritical. The actual fact is that the origional topic has not been answered far from it infact. there is no credible reason other than apeasement of religionists that a proper image should be shown in the infobox. as for "Qwyrxian has been exceedingly patient and courteous" how does that square with the "sigh" post selective reading does seem to be at play here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.31.64.122 (talk) 17:01, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
- I don't know how you can construct that comment from what has been posted above, it's just that certain people with an agenda do not like being presented with the facts. It wasn't me who posted "sigh" but you choose not to see that because you do not like the facts I state — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.29.224.56 (talk) 21:32, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
- You're the only one being uncivil in this thread.—Chowbok ☠ 03:24, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
- We're not say "how is Muhammad represented". The question is, as an image, as art, as a visual medium, how is Muhammad represented, and the answer is, "As a special form of calligraphy". If you went looking for actual images of Muhammad, you'd find, as far as I can tell based on having looked at this and related pages, less than 100 in the world. Total. However, you would find hundreds of thousands, if not more, of stylized, specially formatted, calligraphic representations of Muhammad. Let me draw an analogy: the company IBM, for its trademark/logo, uses a special calligraphic representation of the letters IBM (see File:IBM logo.svg). That's the image we use in the infobox of IBM, because that's the image that the company uses to represent themselves. We don't pick out a picture of their corporate headquarters, or use the original logo (see File:Original IBM Logo.png) just because it's more of a "picture", or anything else. Of course, there is no such thing as an "official" picture of Muhammad (or, really, most people except for maybe some politicians). But there is an image that represents,
- Chowbok that's not a history I have witnessed, the image of Mohammed was in that infobox for years and the core principle of no censorship was observed. the religionists were correctly ignored. It does not make sense to change wikipedia's core principles to appease religionists just because it's perceived as easier. All the current situation shows is that a special case has been made, it looks wrong, is inconsistent and no amount of false reasoning (as witnessed above) will change this — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.178.160.10 (talk) 21:13, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
- Furthermore, characterizing those to disagree with you as "religionists" or "guided by appeasement" is not only false, but insulting and offensive; and a gross violation of Wikipedia's core Wikipedia:Civility policy as well as the guideline Wikipedia:Assume good faith. I have rarely seen a clearer case of the pot calling the kettle black.
- Contrary to your assertion without an accompanying rationale, the presentation of the lead image in this article does represent Wikipedia's core values, as others have repeatedly explained above and in the talk page archives. ~Amatulić (talk) 22:17, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
- Actually the only reason to have no real image is either a religionist reason or to appease religionists stating that fact is not a violation it's just stating a fact weather you like it or not, most likely you are only getting wound up because I state the truth and you don't like it so are now thyrowing toys out of pram and accusing me of "pot calling kettle black" in page history, thats extremely childish immature and unquestionably uncivil, no matter how upset you get with me stating the facts it happens to be the truth nether the less. So one side of the argument is allowed to be "blunt" as they put it but the other isn't even allowed to state their view by your childish rules, if I may be frank even thank (although only people of other opinion are allowed to do this by your terms) if you think the issue has been discussed and resolved why are you not just ignoring my posts? and It was not you who put the "sigh" remark so why try and justify it? it remains unconstructive. your post does nothing but attack me and even if i'm pott calling kettle black (as you so childishly put it) this is only as a response to posts like yours. The stupid thing is I had exepted User:Qwyrxian's explanation that if I wanted to discuss it further I should work out how to use dispute resolution, that is a reasonable comment. you post is just inflamatory, you have no constructive comment to make so why do you bother? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.178.169.96 (talk) 21:32, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
Actually, I (and I am sure others) are of the camp/opinion of "I don't care what your or anyone elses or even my personal beliefs are - this is policy. We follow policy or... we follow policy. Period." Thus, personally, if I thought there was any validity to your claim, I'd be screaming bloody hell in this discussion (or more likely, politely point it out). But I do not believe that to be the case, as has been discussed ad-infinitum above and in archived discussions. After reviewing the numerous discussions on this matter, I believe, whether people against having an image of Muhammed think it was done to appease them or not, that in reality, policy is simply being followed (which may just happen to coincide with their desires). ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 15:31, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
- No policy is not being followed people are avoiding raising the issue as they will just be attacked (like you post), people are ignoring the fact special treatment is being applied here because it's easier to appease then anything else, look how much the bad guy I have become! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.6.130 (talk • contribs)
- Please try reading this thread from the beginning. If you can find a common visual depiction of Muhammad, feel free to add it. Those of us who would like to see such an image have tried valiantly, and failed to find one. So go ahead, nobody is stopping you. You have yet to suggest anything specific. Find an image and present it. Otherwise your complaints aren't relevant, and starting to border on WP:TENDENTIOUS behavior. ~Amatulić (talk) 15:54, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
- Anon: Be careful who you accuse of attacking you (I don't particularly care, but others might). I suspect I did no such thing. Like Amatulic, I'm all for an image if a common visual depiction can be found. I too couldn't find any. Help us out in this matter and find one, and you've got my !vote. ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 22:11, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
- Hi, all. This article isn't part of my field of expertise, but I just read it for the first time and want to chip in my short opinion. I must say, the usage of images in this article is quite strange. I understand the reasoning "his calligraphic name is the most common representation of him" - that seems reasonable for the infobox. However, to not have any artistic depictions of Muhammad until halfway down his main article is very odd, particularly when no other similar articles does so (this has been noted already). A few images, like the image of the Quran in the first section, seem unnecessary, as well. I think everyone knows images of Muhammad are offensive to some, but that's never been an issue on Wikipedia. There are a number of other places where images considered offensive by certain groups are used prominently in articles. Thanks, and happy editing. White Whirlwind 咨 00:07, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
- Sadly, though Wikipedia is supposed to be, this article is not treated secularly, and has a number of exceptions to minimize or decrease religious offense. ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 23:12, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
- Hi, all. This article isn't part of my field of expertise, but I just read it for the first time and want to chip in my short opinion. I must say, the usage of images in this article is quite strange. I understand the reasoning "his calligraphic name is the most common representation of him" - that seems reasonable for the infobox. However, to not have any artistic depictions of Muhammad until halfway down his main article is very odd, particularly when no other similar articles does so (this has been noted already). A few images, like the image of the Quran in the first section, seem unnecessary, as well. I think everyone knows images of Muhammad are offensive to some, but that's never been an issue on Wikipedia. There are a number of other places where images considered offensive by certain groups are used prominently in articles. Thanks, and happy editing. White Whirlwind 咨 00:07, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
Very offensive
I find these images of the holy prophet muhammed offensive. If I may I would like to provide an alternate photograph. May Allah guide your ways. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.96.157.248 (talk • contribs)
- New comments at the bottom of the page, please.
- Please also read Talk:Muhammad/FAQ. Not all Muslims share your view.
- Many people are offended by many things on Wikipedia. Wikipedia isn't censored for anyone's benefit.
- By all means, we are always willing to consider new or alternative images. Where can we see it? ~Amatulić (talk) 13:18, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
If the IP, or indeed anyone else, can provide us with a new calligraphic form of the Prophet's name, that would be very gratefully received, as our old one turned out to be copyright.--Elen of the Roads (talk) 15:38, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
remove the pictures
--براء داغستاني (talk) 18:01, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
- All but 2 of the current 9 sections on this page actually relate to images, and should have been moved there. On the other hand currently there is discussion on the images question on about 5 different pages, and a posting referring to these here might be useful. Johnbod (talk) 18:37, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
Pictures of Muhammad p.b.u.h should be removed
- all the pictures protayed Muhammad p.b.u.h should be removed because Muhammad cannot be illustrated. It had been stated in al - Quran. Wikipedia should have sensitivity regarding religion and accept others people opinion. Those pictures are too offensive to all MUSLIM,, there are no such things in Islam that Muhammad p.b.uh can be ilustrated. Please remove the picture as soon as possible. 175.144.81.9 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:40, 10 November 2011 (UTC).
- There is an ongoing discussion about this here and here. Peace. --JN466 15:48, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
- Nowhere in the Koran does it say that Muhammad can't be depicted; that's the opinion of some scholars after his death. Otherwise, I'd take the advice given to you above. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 04:28, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
- (also posted on User talk:Jimbo Wales) Several of the images under discussion here appear in the 2009 book on Muhammad by the Islamic scholar Omid Safi, "Memories of Muhammad: Why the Prophet Matters".[66] The book has received positive reviews in various academic journals. The illustrations used in the book are listed at the end under "art credits": the cover image of Muhammad with the angel Gabriel from the Topkapi Palace Museum; 3 illustrations from the Qisas al-Anbiya; 3 images of the Night Journey from the BNF in Paris, the Metropolitan Museum in New York. and the British Library in London. In the owrds of one reviewer [67] (Mary Hossain of Queens Universi[ty, Belfast): "This book provides a new approach, or a new combination of approaches, to the familiar story of the life of the Prophet. It combines the historical and the spiritual, giving, for example, the pre-Islamic background and relating several crucial episodes of the Prophet's life, but also showing how these are interpreted in a spiritual way by Muslims, showing both the ‘historical Muhammad’ and the ‘Muhammad of grace’. In this way Omid Safi communicates to the reader the Muslims’ love for the Prophet as well as addressing and assessing the historical evidence for certain events." This is a source by an academic Islamist which uses the same type of historical image currently in the wikipedia article. Mathsci (talk) 05:27, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
- He is from Iran, where images of the Prophet are tolerated. Safi also reports in his book that he is wary of telling some of his Muslim friends that the image in his home is of Muhammad, because they react badly to it. Cf. pages 184–186 in the book by Carl W. Ernst ("While Muslims in other countries might find this objectionable, it seems to cause no comment in Iran."). It is a question of proportion. Safi takes the view, as an Iranian muslim, that images of Muhammad are okay. It's a significant minority view in Islam, but far from a majority view, nor representative of how Muhammad is most commonly portrayed. --JN466 06:06, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
- Yeah, but this part "where images of the Prophet are tolerated" isn't relevant to anything. OTOH, I contend my post on Jimbo's page is relevant to this matter - here it is with a little more clarification: no one has proposed another depiction of Muhammad that is more common. Therein lies the problem. Calligraphy is not Muhammad or a depiction of how he was perceived to look. No one would look at calligraphy and say "yeah, that's what he looked like!" Nor is "flame and veil" - that is simply a depiction of specifically how he does not look in order to have something that does not violate religious rules or create religious offense. A biography has pictures of (a) how someone looked, or (b) failing the availability of such, how others perceived him to look.
- I'll be honest about something else. The other thing that has hurt the response to the opinions of some editors here is that pictures of a veiled/flamed Muhammad are ok and more suitable - but if it comes to unveiled pics, they're "false depictions". Obviously, there are two reasons such hurts their stance - the first is (a) that, correctly or not, it implies that the editor is applying a religious bias of some sort, and (b) a head of fire is far less likely to resemble what he looked like than a depiction of an actual head - which may possibly even be drawn from what descriptions are available on how he looked. Thus, the "false depictions" argument doesnt hold out well when those editors trot out support for one and wish to remove the others. ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 02:58, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
Image deletion nomination
I would like to nominate the image http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Surat_An-Najm.jpg for deletion out of the text. It does nothing to enhance the readers knowledge of the subject. Tivanir2 (talk) 22:50, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose (05:29, 11 November 2011 (UTC))
Withholding !vote: until someone can translate the specific text. If the text creates a relevance point to Muhammad or the section of the article, then, with appropriate caption indicating such relevance in English, I'd be against deletion. If no relevance, I'd be for deletion. This is not an article on the Qur'an, and only needs representations of such as relevant. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 23:10, 10 November 2011 (UTC) - Oppose removal The image is in the section on the Quran, and it shows a page from the Quran. The Quran is what Muhammad is famous for – to muslims, it's the word of God, as reported by Muhammad, his messenger. Muhammad is omnipresent in Islamic culture through Quranic quotations. --JN466 05:21, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
- You had me at "The image is in the section on the Quran, and it shows a page from the Quran." ;-) Best, Rob ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 05:29, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
- I note that the "aniconic" argument of "it does nothing to enhance the readers knowledge of the subject" applies just as stongly, or just as weakly, to images of the Quran or calligraphy as to figurative images of the Prophet. I don't buy this argument, & I think we should have at least one image of a Quran, though I don't think the current ones are the best choice. Commons has a huge Category:Qur'an from which better images can be chosen. Johnbod (talk) 15:06, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
- I don't follow that. Showing a page of the Quran shows words Muhammad actually spoke. That in itself is a pretty immediate connection to Muhammad as the subject of the article. The loving way they are reproduced indicates in what esteem they are held, and the significance attributed to them, which is part of his reception, as well as communicating cultural flair. --JN466 15:19, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
- Sadly, I think you just won Johnbod's "argument" for him - let me work from your statement: "I don't follow that. Showing a depiction of Muhammad shows how many people have perceived Muhammad through the ages. That in itself is a pretty immediate connection to Muhammad as the subject of the article. The loving way they are created and reproduced - much less commissioned by noble families, indicates in what esteem they are held, and the significance attributed to them, which is part of his reception, as well as communicating cultural flair."
- See my point? Side note, we do not know that the Qur'an page in the image is an exact faithful replica of his original words or of earlier printings, do we? I mean, I am sure we can assume such (as people do with the Bible). But I am wondering if (just like the Bible) we'd be wrong. Either way, it's not something we can definitively say. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 16:43, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
- The Quran and the Bible are quite different in that respect: while the Quran is Muhammad's work (and scholarship generally doesn't doubt that), none of the New Testament was written by Jesus. So there is an immediacy here that does not apply in the case of the Bible. The Quran continues to be studied, memorised, quoted, inscribed and recited to a degree the Bible is not. The problem with applying the "how many people have perceived Muhammad through the ages" argument to figurative images is the "many". By all accounts (see comments on Jimbo's talk), figurative images were rare to begin with, were used in non-public contexts only, and most Muslims refrained from making such images. So while they are part of Muhammad's reception, they are a very small and generally unrepresentative part of it. The reproduction of Muhammad's names and words in the Quran in contrast is central to Muhammad's artistic reception. --JN466 00:16, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
- Rarity is irrelevant to "is this a picture/photo/sitting-portrait/depiction of the article subject?" Nothing suffices as a substitute for such except more of the same. ;-) Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 01:59, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
- The Quran and the Bible are quite different in that respect: while the Quran is Muhammad's work (and scholarship generally doesn't doubt that), none of the New Testament was written by Jesus. So there is an immediacy here that does not apply in the case of the Bible. The Quran continues to be studied, memorised, quoted, inscribed and recited to a degree the Bible is not. The problem with applying the "how many people have perceived Muhammad through the ages" argument to figurative images is the "many". By all accounts (see comments on Jimbo's talk), figurative images were rare to begin with, were used in non-public contexts only, and most Muslims refrained from making such images. So while they are part of Muhammad's reception, they are a very small and generally unrepresentative part of it. The reproduction of Muhammad's names and words in the Quran in contrast is central to Muhammad's artistic reception. --JN466 00:16, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
- Ok, If you can read Arabic your knowledge may be directly enhanced (by images where the text is actually legible) but if not not. Logically the "enhance the readers knowledge" argument would dictate images of an English translation in the English article. But I think there is much more to illustration of articles than this somewhat fundamentalist approach. Johnbod (talk) 17:27, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
- Actually I would like to point out the koran was written after muhammads death so no it isn't his work. It is written by his companions before his death as the word of god passed through muhammad. So it is almost exactly like the bible in that aspect since neither were written by the person in question. The reason I added in the question is to show that an image may be informative without necessarily having any supporting text. Tivanir2 (talk) 15:10, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
- oppose per wikipedia is not censored. Pass a Method talk 19:08, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
- Irrelevant comment. This isn't a censorship issue. Nobody is offended by this image, nobody is proposing censoring anything. Have you looked at the image at all? ~Amatulić (talk) 21:11, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
- Amatulic I think you've missed the point entirely. More of a statement than an earnest argument if I'm not mistaken. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 02:21, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, I know it's a statement. I got that point. However, it appears to be irrelevant to this discussion, as far as I can tell.
- For my part, I have no opinion yet. The article would not be worse off without the image, but it certainly isn't harmed by it, either. ~Amatulić (talk) 02:48, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
- Amatulic I think you've missed the point entirely. More of a statement than an earnest argument if I'm not mistaken. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 02:21, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
- Irrelevant comment. This isn't a censorship issue. Nobody is offended by this image, nobody is proposing censoring anything. Have you looked at the image at all? ~Amatulić (talk) 21:11, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
FWIW I think this image is probably a copyright violation. The uploader also uploaded a bunch of copyvio calligraphy, participated in the deletion discussions, and then when they were deleted as copyvios at commons, immediately uploaded them to ar.wiki. Same with another photo he uploaded to commons. Given the border/vignetting and that he is not a trustworthy user, I bet this is something just snagged from the web. Calliopejen1 (talk) 02:30, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
Proposed image solution
Flowing from a discussion I began at Anthonyhcole's talk page, and moving onto Jayen's, I propose several ideas that should, in my view, represent a reasonable solution to the ongoing debates as well as present an opportunity for a better balance of images throughout the article. The proposal is based on two opinions that I hold: 1. We will not remove all - or even most - depictions, full stop. 2. There are too many images overall (26 at this time), which are crushing the text in places.
First and foremost: the depictions. Presently, there are five Muslim and one western depiction in the article. I propose to change this to three Muslim and two western, net reduction of one. The three Muslim images would represent the three ways in which Muhammad has been depicted at some point in history: fully rendered, defaced, and as a flame. The full render and the defaced image (example to right) would be placed in the Islamic depictions section where they can be used to show not only that such images exist - which I hold to be valuable educationally - but with solid captions can be used to show the progression from full rendering to none throughout history. File:Muhammad destroying idols - L'Histoire Merveilleuse en Vers de Mahomet BNF.jpg, the image of Muhammad as a Flame, would remain in an appropriate position of his historical biography. This should be acceptable to all sides, as it is still a depiction, but does not actually render Muhammad. This allows us to display the three ways in which Muhammad was depicted, once each in the article.
Western tradition obviously has no such restrictions on imagery, and we have space in the section, so I suggest to add File:Scotusnfrieze.jpeg, which shows one western view of Muhammad as a bringer of laws. In our discussion, Anthony suggested replacing the existing Russian image with one showing Muhammad in hell, but not nearly as "ghastly" as the one that was removed, showing historical Western perspective.
The reduction of one depiction would be, in my mind, part of a greater redressing of the balance. Between the 26 images and several templates, the text gets crushed in several locations. My view is an overall reduction of at least three images. For instance, do we need 6-8 calligraphic renderings? We could eliminate one by removing or completely collapsing {{Islam}}, especially since it is redundant to the {{Islam topics}} navbox. It is a nice looking template, but why have two that points to the same links? Especially when removing the side bar will open space up to move images around. Additionally, it is currently oddly placed in the western views section. I would also favour collapsing the other two templates in some fashion, as they take up a remarkable amount of real estate that could be better used in organizing the images we have.
Thoughts? Resolute 00:22, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- I would oppose replacing Islamic images with Western ones. What is the point of that supposed to be? Especially the two specifically mentioned, which I have commented on above. Apart from other considerations this will clearly increase the "offensiveness" of the page to those who find it so. Johnbod (talk) 00:42, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- I doubt it would change the offensiveness of the article at all. The people complaining of "offensiveness" will not be satisfied until depictions = 0. Given that will never gain consensus and therefore such individuals will never be satisfied, I do not see any point in worrying about that viewpoint. My goal is to address arguments related to value and placement of the images used. Resolute 01:24, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- That's naive frankly. There are a lot of Muslims who don't complain now, but would complain about an image in Muhammad in hell. Johnbod (talk) 01:29, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- I brought that up as Anthony's suggestion, and there is a point to be made that it is a legitimate historical viewpoint. That said, I have no issue with using another image (such as retaining the Russian one) if that is preferred. Resolute 01:35, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- It's covered at Depictions of Muhammad, with 2 hell images, which is where it belongs imo. Johnbod (talk) 01:55, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- The image of Muhammad being tortured in hell was removed previously from this article by consensus, as being needlessly provocative. The discussion is at Talk:Muhammad/images/Archive 17#Proposed removal of deliberately provocative images. I would oppose its re-introduction. ~Amatulić (talk) 02:01, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- It's covered at Depictions of Muhammad, with 2 hell images, which is where it belongs imo. Johnbod (talk) 01:55, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- I brought that up as Anthony's suggestion, and there is a point to be made that it is a legitimate historical viewpoint. That said, I have no issue with using another image (such as retaining the Russian one) if that is preferred. Resolute 01:35, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- That's naive frankly. There are a lot of Muslims who don't complain now, but would complain about an image in Muhammad in hell. Johnbod (talk) 01:29, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- I doubt it would change the offensiveness of the article at all. The people complaining of "offensiveness" will not be satisfied until depictions = 0. Given that will never gain consensus and therefore such individuals will never be satisfied, I do not see any point in worrying about that viewpoint. My goal is to address arguments related to value and placement of the images used. Resolute 01:24, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Semi-related question. Is the picture with veil actually a picture that was without veil and painted over? Has that happened in the past? I note that the outline seems to be of facial features and not of a veil. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 01:00, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- It might be. I know in Commons, there is an unveiled image that was altered to be shown defaced - with Muhammad's face painted over. Resolute 01:24, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- That has happened to some images, but they can't usually tell unless the paints starts peeling or turns transparent, or you can see under light from behind etc. At this date veils were probably standard anyway - Gruber gives the Safavid takeover in 1502 as the rough date of the change. Johnbod (talk) 01:27, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- That brings up an interesting point (I'll leave the relevance of it up to others to decide). Muhammad was probably never perceived, portrayed or viewed by his peers with a veil. Of course, the guidelines in MOS\Images does not favor either, regardless of that. Interesting... ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 00:33, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks, Resolute. I support this as a compromise proposal, and one that better reflects Islamic ways of portraying Muhammad. I agree with Johnbod about a picture of Muhammad in hell being needlessly provocative here. Incidentally, about the veil, there were also pictures where the artist painted a calligraphic symbol of Muhammad instead of a face, and then covered the symbol with a veil, as a mark of respect. --JN466 16:17, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Agree with collapsing the box. I don't think I agree that the flame image is better for his historical biography section. Not to be funny, but the sources agree that he had a human face when he was alive. So, editorially, I would prefer image(s) with his face in his biography section. Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:28, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- I think I lost that argument... though my newer one above leans in the same direction. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 00:37, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
- Images showing a face were in a minority compared to veil/flame images, and images were rare overall, compared to calligraphy; we should reflect proportions accurately (roughly at least). --JN466 18:09, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
- Where is this? Commons is not a meaningful sample of anything much. It is simply a matter of dating. Before about 1500, mainly face shown. After then mainly veiled, until recent times when images are rather more mixed. Johnbod (talk) 19:40, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
- See Safi. You're right about the 1500 watershed though. --JN466 21:43, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
- See Gruber for a less vague treatment. Johnbod (talk) 22:27, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
- I've looked at Gruber, but is it your impression that she is contradicting Safi on what's the most common type of illustration? I've seen nothing in her work to suggest that. And there are other sources saying much the same as Safi, e.g. [68]. I'm not against showing one unveiled Islamic image, as per Resolute's proposal above. --JN466 22:35, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
- See Gruber for a less vague treatment. Johnbod (talk) 22:27, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
- See Safi. You're right about the 1500 watershed though. --JN466 21:43, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
- Where is this? Commons is not a meaningful sample of anything much. It is simply a matter of dating. Before about 1500, mainly face shown. After then mainly veiled, until recent times when images are rather more mixed. Johnbod (talk) 19:40, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
- I would have hoped so too. Hopefully a few more people opine in this section, as I think we would all like to move forward with this article. Resolute 23:22, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
- I'm happy with this - if we do this we can avoid any escalation from me. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 08:37, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
- I would have hoped so too. Hopefully a few more people opine in this section, as I think we would all like to move forward with this article. Resolute 23:22, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
- I don't see the preceding discussion as responsive to my point. Obviously, people round the world have illustrated the human Mohammed. I still view this as a biography, generally in biography we (and most sources in biography) illustrate the person. I can see no reason not too (other than religious scruple). You say they are "rare"? In every other biography such claim would ensure that the image is included.Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:57, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
- This proposal still includes some images of Muhammad in the article. The point is that in this case lots of biographies apparently don't include images of Muhammad where you'd expect them to for other figures. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 13:11, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
- The proposal is to eliminate all such images from the biography sections and the reason given for the don't is religious scruple. Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:35, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
- I would be content to allow a single image to remain in the biography section. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 13:52, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
- Alan, the compromise Resolute, Anthonyhcole and I worked out is that one image would remain in the biography section. It would look like this, perhaps with a second image subsequently added in the European reception section. The change is not actually motivated by religious scruples, but by a desire to reflect Islamic representations of Muhammad in something approaching correct proportions. If this lessens offence to muslims, that is a welcome side effect, but it isn't actually the rationale for what's proposed. Cheers, --JN466 17:35, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
- Given we currently have three actual images of Muhammad in the "life" section which show his face, wouldn't it be reasonable to still include one there. Alan makes a reasonable point and there is value in showing his face in the biography section - and I think that wouldn't be gratuitous and that most reasonable people (including hopefully most muslims) would be OK with that. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:25, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
- We wanted to have three images showing the main types of depiction in Persian book miniatures – flame, veiled, face. The two mi'raj images work best side by side to illustrate how conventions changed around 1500, from facial depictions to veiled depictions. --JN466 18:36, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
- And I presume the flame/veiled ones significantly outweigh the others. Damn :(. We could add another image to the European and Western reactions section - the US supreme court one could work well there. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:46, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
- We wanted to have three images showing the main types of depiction in Persian book miniatures – flame, veiled, face. The two mi'raj images work best side by side to illustrate how conventions changed around 1500, from facial depictions to veiled depictions. --JN466 18:36, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
- Given we currently have three actual images of Muhammad in the "life" section which show his face, wouldn't it be reasonable to still include one there. Alan makes a reasonable point and there is value in showing his face in the biography section - and I think that wouldn't be gratuitous and that most reasonable people (including hopefully most muslims) would be OK with that. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:25, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
- The proposal is to eliminate all such images from the biography sections and the reason given for the don't is religious scruple. Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:35, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
- This proposal still includes some images of Muhammad in the article. The point is that in this case lots of biographies apparently don't include images of Muhammad where you'd expect them to for other figures. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 13:11, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Jayen: I am aware that it would eliminate Mohammed Kaaba (at right), (which consensus above recently confirmed should be here) in favor of NO image illustrating his early life. Since this is the only image we have illustrating his early life, the correct proportion would be to have it. We should stick with the prior consensus, above. I am also aware that it would eliminate The Revelation (at left), illustrating the very text which makes him MOST notable, again in favor of NO image. I see no pedagogical reason for that. There is one other, which no one has made a claim does not belong.
- IMO The pictures you wish to remove should be individually put up for review (except for Mohammed Kabba, which recently successfully went through such review) and the basis for removal should NOT be based on some claim of "Islamic representation" - that IS an explicit religious motivation. Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:06, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
- The goal of my proposal was to organize a layout that would be acceptable to a majority of the involved editors. I think that if we can agree on this being a viable framework, we can then discuss which specific images work best, if the ones contained in this proposal are not found to be the best choices. Resolute 19:11, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
- Is the basis for your framework "Islamic representation," and if so, why do we need to eliminate illustrations of his early life and his revelation? Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:27, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
- No, the basis for my framework is to try and achieve an image layout that most will accept. Resolute 19:30, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
- Then, I amend my opinion, we should put them up for review in one section all at the same time, with separate support or oppose rationales requested for each. Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:35, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
- No, the basis for my framework is to try and achieve an image layout that most will accept. Resolute 19:30, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
- Is the basis for your framework "Islamic representation," and if so, why do we need to eliminate illustrations of his early life and his revelation? Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:27, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
- The goal of my proposal was to organize a layout that would be acceptable to a majority of the involved editors. I think that if we can agree on this being a viable framework, we can then discuss which specific images work best, if the ones contained in this proposal are not found to be the best choices. Resolute 19:11, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
- IMO The pictures you wish to remove should be individually put up for review (except for Mohammed Kabba, which recently successfully went through such review) and the basis for removal should NOT be based on some claim of "Islamic representation" - that IS an explicit religious motivation. Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:06, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
Given we need to balance the overall article I don't think that's a good idea. The refutation of my suggestion above is overall balance and not whether individual images are acceptable. This has been a contentious issue for a long time and we are all going to need to be prepared to compromise on it if we want to get a resolution to this matter. It has been an issue for far too long already.
Resolute's excellent proposal above is the sort of thing I would expect to come out of mediation - why force us through that process, including topic bans for anyone who is uncooperative and all sorts of other nastiness if we don't have to? I was premature about suggesting mediation given this discussion, and I also probably haven't explained my position as clearly as I could have done (part of that is that I am internally torn as to exactly what my view is) but resolving this is not something that can be allowed to slide indefinitely. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:54, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
- Re balance. If you put them up all at the same time, then people can argue balance. Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:01, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
Clarifying my position
For the record, in response to Resolute's comments in the above thread, regarding the section on Western reception, I said, I favour replacing the present "Muhammad preaches" with a good picture of the SCOTUS Muhammad, as the latter's physical place says a lot about Western reception. I agree there is room for another image in that section and would favour a contemporary (medieval) illustration of the medieval European view. Perhaps "Wife scolding the drunken Muhammad" or "Faith stepping on Muhammad." [71] They show the disrespectful tone without the ghastliness of the Dante illustrations. (Dante illustrations = illustrations of Muhammad being tortured in hell.)
I still hold this view. Such images would be highly relevant examples of what's being discussed in the section (the shift from demonisation and contempt in the Middle Ages to tolerance and respect in the Modern period).
This gives me an opportunity to clarify my position vis a vis some others in this discussion. I argue that, where a controversial image has little or no relevant didactic value, its lack of real educational value should be taken into account and it should be removed, replaced by something uncontroversial that has the same didactic value or replaced by an image that has real relevant educational use. This, I believe, applies to most of the present figurative portrayals of Muhammad in this article. Where an image is controversial but has significant real relevant educational value, it should be used. This, I believe, applies to the SCOTUS Muhammad and medieval depictions in the section on Western reception.
My position seems to diametrically oppose Johnbod's: include figurative portrayals that have no direct educational use relevant to the sections that contain them (anachronistic artists' impressions add nothing to the readers' understanding of the section topic); and exclude images that are highly pertinent examples (not just illustrations, but examples - understanding this distinction is essential to understanding my position) of Western reception from that section because they are controversial.
As I explained in my discussion with Resolute referred to above, following my preference would result in just as many figurative portrayals of Muhammad in this article. They wouldn't be mostly the pretty Persian and Turkish ones presently favoured by John and Mathsci, and one or two would be decidedly more offensive than those presently illustrating the article, but unlike most of the current image use, all would be solidly justified on the basis of relevance and real educational value. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 07:21, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
2 questions
Just a couple of quick questions for me. Is there a reason to have 2 separate timelines for the important events in the life of muhammad? We have one as mecca one as medina (I am aware there is a large difference in attitude and what happened.) I was wondering if there was any solid reason as to why they aren't combined instead of devoted to two separate places.
Also while it is an important event do we need this picture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mount_Uhud.jpg? If we do decide to keep it is there any artist renderings more in line with the time period that might serve as a better one? (i.e. like the picture of muhammad not looking like him I very much doubt the town looked like this in the 6th century.
Again just random thoughts I come up with as I am trying to figure out a better way to display the article. Tivanir2 (talk) 21:27, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- I was about to revert you for the unexplained blanking (lack of edit summary) until I saw this section. What is your objection to that picture? It isn't in the way of anything, it isn't crowding anything, it isn't competing for space. I don't have a problem with its removal, but if you'd rather have a picture to replace it, why not keep the old one there as a placeholder? ~Amatulić (talk) 22:06, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
- That is a good option to. I have no issues with a revert I just haven't had time to dig up any portraits of what it historically looked like. I am fine with it either way, just hadn't received any info one way or the other so I figured I would give it a shot and see if anyone wanted to keep it for now. Tivanir2 (talk) 22:08, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
- There was a better alternative at one time. It's unfortunate that the Commons File:Gabal Uhud.jpg was changed by the uploader from a beautiful picture of the mountain with no modern foreground artifacts to a nondescript close-up of that mountain. You can still see the old version on that page in the upload history, but since it exists only in the archives I don't think it's available for using in articles. There's another good picture here: http://www.2mfm.org/pictures/img26.htm but unfortunately not available for free use. ~Amatulić (talk) 22:15, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
- I don't see any reason why the other can't be put under another name. It was the same user that uploaded both - his own work he says - & it was probably a mistake that he overwrote the old name with the new pic. Johnbod (talk) 09:48, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
- Yep, its public domain. I've been WP:BOLD and created the originally named File:Gabal Uhud 2.jpg and added it to the article. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 09:09, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
- I don't see any reason why the other can't be put under another name. It was the same user that uploaded both - his own work he says - & it was probably a mistake that he overwrote the old name with the new pic. Johnbod (talk) 09:48, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
- There was a better alternative at one time. It's unfortunate that the Commons File:Gabal Uhud.jpg was changed by the uploader from a beautiful picture of the mountain with no modern foreground artifacts to a nondescript close-up of that mountain. You can still see the old version on that page in the upload history, but since it exists only in the archives I don't think it's available for using in articles. There's another good picture here: http://www.2mfm.org/pictures/img26.htm but unfortunately not available for free use. ~Amatulić (talk) 22:15, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
Mediation
As suggested at WT:NOT I have proposed taking this images case forward to formal mediation. About 600,000 words have been spent discussing this matter over a period of 4 years on this page alone, and the matter has spilt out into other pages as well - leading to a 100,000 word discussion at WT:NOT which is even by itself extremely long.
The primary advantage of this escalation is that it should allow some sort of decision to be made which doesn't involve continued discussion about this topic forever, and it certainly seems like its well worth a try. Mediation currently seems like the best bet as this is a content dispute and not a conduct dispute - but if conduct is made apparent to be an issue then the case can be escalated to the arbitration committee. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:44, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
- I don't see any need for this initiative, since there seems to be a consensus on this page for the use of a limited number of images for this article (as described by Jayen466 for example). Nobody has so far objected to that proposal on this talk page. It is true that various other users have been arguing in very general terms about wikipedia policy elsewhere, but that does not affect this particular discussion. Please look at the discussions on this page about the Prophet Muhammad's Night Journey before making proposals of this kind, which do not seem helpful. As the saying goes, if it's not broke, why fix it? Mathsci (talk) 20:55, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
- I tend to agree, especially as in the case of one editor involved this would seem to amount to feeding the troll. Nor would mediation prevent continued discussion, one can be sure of that. The "not censored" aspect of the matter can really be discussed in the abstract, but there are many other sides to it. Johnbod (talk) 21:08, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
- Actually it would stop further discussion. Once mediation has got a result you can point out to the new person that the discussion had gone to mediation and that the result was a compromise. If you say that you don't have to engage in any other discussion with the person for at least a few years.
- If we pretend that the only discussion on WP:NOTCENSORED has been at WT:NOT then that topic (with regards to this article) is definitely ready to go to some level of mediation as well.
- If you guys ultimately refuse to engage in mediation I'll be disappointed as that will change the matter into a conduct issue, also involving you guys. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 08:39, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
- I tend to agree, especially as in the case of one editor involved this would seem to amount to feeding the troll. Nor would mediation prevent continued discussion, one can be sure of that. The "not censored" aspect of the matter can really be discussed in the abstract, but there are many other sides to it. Johnbod (talk) 21:08, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
Consensus is already abundantly clear on the matter, there is nothing to actually mediate on the issue of Muhammad and images. Tarc (talk) 21:59, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
- If consensus was ever "abundantly clear" on something you wouldn't have a 600 thousand word discussion. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 08:30, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
I don't think this comment of yours at WT:NOT is a very good basis to bring anything to mediation (beside the fact that you have not stated what proposition you want to mediate):Mediation will make it blindly obvious who those editors are though, and then Arbcom can sanction them. --Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:29, 26 November 2011 (UTC) - Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:31, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
- Eraser, I suspect you do not understand want mediation is for or how it works. Also in agreement with Johnbod and Mathsci's statements above. I've taken on mediation cases, and I can assure you, it works differently and is for different purposes than what you and some at NOT seem to think. Best, Rob ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 23:17, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
- As with others, I do not think mediation is a valid next step. It does not exist as a forum to try and overturn a consensus that is against you. Resolute 01:44, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
- Look guys we've written six hundred thousand words on this talk page. This doesn't look like a matter that is getting resolved by this discussion by any stretch of the imagination.
- Lets not forget that only a few weeks ago when this issue was taken to the arbitration committee that this was a content issue. I highly doubt that that has changed, and if its a content issue mediation is definitely the right approach.
- That said the discussion above (which I hadn't seen) looks like it might have got results, so we can definitely see if that is enough. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 08:30, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
- There was an agreement about the use of a limited (probably reduced) number of images between Jayen466, Anthonyhcole and me, amongst others. There has been compromise and flexibility; and in this case criteria have emerged, depending on secondary sources, for deciding when images are appropriate and where they should be placed. That is the normal process by which consensus is formed. Those discussions have not ended. On Meta Jayen466 is also discussing aspects of the proposed image filter (in both English and German). I don't see an impasse here at all, so please allow time for the Night Journey discussions to continue. There is no rush. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 08:49, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
- I came at this from the discussion on WT:NOT which appeared to be about the same topic and which has become significantly less productive and there has been a lot of refusal to compromise there.
- It looks like the discussions here are progressing surprisingly well, that wasn't made clear enough to me at WT:NOT - if I misread the discussion there I apologise.
- If the discussion above doesn't resolve itself reasonably quickly (say ~3 months) then I'll come back and we can discuss escalating it later. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 08:56, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
- FWIW I think secondary sources is the right approach in general. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 08:57, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
- There's a difference between a situation being resolved and a situation being resolved to your satisfaction. Something to keep in mind for when you consider the situation three months from now. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 19:21, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
- Eraserhead1: I dont think that matters. Numerous secondary sources have been brought up that use the images we use. NUMEROUS times. When that happens a handful of ones that dont are brought up as reasons to remove the images. That battle was already won in favor of leaving the images - but those who are using that argument to remove it still won't let that argument drop, as if a handful of sources outweighs dozens more. In addition, some have even went so far as to imply that "this sect of Islam should be ignored - and this other sect doesnt do this, so let's follow their lead" - which obviously we can't do. That'd be like picking one sect of Christianity as "the true Christianity". Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 20:58, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
- FWIW I think secondary sources is the right approach in general. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 08:57, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
- There was an agreement about the use of a limited (probably reduced) number of images between Jayen466, Anthonyhcole and me, amongst others. There has been compromise and flexibility; and in this case criteria have emerged, depending on secondary sources, for deciding when images are appropriate and where they should be placed. That is the normal process by which consensus is formed. Those discussions have not ended. On Meta Jayen466 is also discussing aspects of the proposed image filter (in both English and German). I don't see an impasse here at all, so please allow time for the Night Journey discussions to continue. There is no rush. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 08:49, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
- Why would we have mediation? We have a good compromise proposal above, the one by Resolute, that most of us can sign up to. I believe Ludwigs2 would be fine with that too. --JN466 21:36, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
- While I might be able to sign on to that proposal as well, I am leaning to believe it is a stopgap measure when efforts to continue this beyond said proposal are well underway.[72] To be 100% honest, that makes it seem like the compromise is nothing more than a distraction until the efforts to remove all "offensive" images continues. Now, while no one may have that exact intent in mind, you and I can probably agree that such will be the exact results of such. Kinda makes it all seem pointless. Honestly, if an outsider looked at this, don't you think the first thing they'd see was "Look a truce (compromise)!!! Oh, wait... the next attack is already being planned by this side." - again, whether that's the intended reasoning or not; we know that will be the end result. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 21:46, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
Discussion at WT:NOT
There is currently an extensive ongoing discussion at Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not about a proposal that is intended to affect the choice of image(s) on this article. Your comments in the discussion would be welcome. Thryduulf (talk) 20:41, 27 November 2011 (UTC)