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Edit request on 17 April 2012
Who sets the boundaries for censorship here. Could you please redirect me to the censorship criteria. Who decides what is offending to someone and not to others. Why is pornography 'censored' on wikipedia? How is a neutral point of view agreed upon when the persons deciding about an issue might not have any representation from the offended community?
O Wikipedia... you benefit too many but certainly have your own flaws... one just cannot give the authority of decision to the ones who do not have any representation from the people he has been given authority on ..
I know it would not change a bit.. but im just trying to prove my point which in the eyes of many here is not worth considering — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zeuskhan (talk • contribs) 05:17, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
- To answer your complaint, I must simply answer that Wikipedia is not an experiment in democracy. We don't claim "authority"; our process for determining what material is included by consensus (not voting). The matter of images has been extensively and exhaustively discussed (as you can see from the FAQ prominently listed at the top of the page) for years, and consensus has always determined that the images will be kept. If you and the other "offended parties" would like to try and establish a consensus to remove the images, you are of course free to do so, but you will most likely be disappointed because that would conflict with Wikipedia's anti-censorship policy. We do not censor images just because people are likely to find them offensive (Islam and Mohammed are not singled out in this; it applies to everyone). Sleddog116 (talk) 14:48, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
Dear Brother, I request to delete the pictures which appears as keeping the black stone and getting revelation from angel and any photograph which shows the face of Prophet Muhammed because they are not true image and lead to future misunderstanding. Thank you. Ahamed.
Fakhru77 (talk) 17:49, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
- This request will have to be denied, sorry. We cannot censor material on this project. Tarc (talk) 18:03, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
EDIT REQUEST ON 18/04/12 ---- Non-Arabic Sources (2.4)
Please add the following after where Reference 41 ends.
Though history shows that some mighty prophets did indeed come with the sword as in the case of David vs Goliath (David (peace be upon him) did take part in battles and used the sword to kill his enemies i.e. enemies of God). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bmanzoor (talk • contribs) 16:53, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
- Not done As presented, this is not an acceptable addition. "Though history shows" is debatable, as the historicity of religious texts is disputed, and to my knowledge, no direct historical records (i.e. non-religious sources) mention David and Goliath. Also, the edit includes the honorific (peace be upon him), which does not conform to a neutral point of view and has been discussed extensively (and described in the FAQ at the top of this page). Sleddog116 (talk) 22:53, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
Kindly add amended text as follows
Can anyone please remove the pictures of Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H) from this page.Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikiman1157 (talk • contribs) 21:29, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
Though on the other hand biblical accounts (i.e. Jewish and Christian traditions) show that some mighty prophets did indeed come with the sword as in the case of David vs Goliath (David killed him with his own sword and beheaded him) and he took part in battles and used the sword to kill his enemies i.e. enemies of God) - see Book of Samuel, 1 Samuel (17:1-58), Qur’an (2:251)
end of text
Some links to corroborate the aforementioned traditions http://gardenofpraise.com/bibl14s.htm http://bible.org/seriespage/david-and-goliath-1-samuel-171-58 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Samuel+17&version=NIV http://quran.com/2/251 http://www.haqislam.org/prophet-dawood-and-sulaiman/ some more links (taken from Wikipedia) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David
David and Goliath The Israelites, under King Saul, faced the Philistines in the Valley of Elah. He heard the Philistine giant Goliath challenge the Israelites to send their own champion to decide the outcome in single combat. David told Saul he was prepared to face Goliath and Saul allowed him to make the attempt. He was victorious, striking Goliath in the forehead with a stone from his sling. Goliath fell, and David killed him with his own sword and beheaded him; the Philistines fled in terror. Saul inquired about the name of the young champion, and David told him that he is the son of Jesse.[22] [22] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1_Samuel — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bmanzoor (talk • contribs) 09:37, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
- Wikipedia articles are never reliable sources, and scriptures (the Qu'ran, the Bible, etc.) are primary sources which can only be cited very sparingly literally and only for exactly what they say (i.e., they cannot be interpretted as you were doing in your suggested edit). Qwyrxian (talk) 13:29, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
Did you bother to click on the links I provided? Did you bother to read any text whatsoever?
So I can't quote from Bible and Qur'an now? I am just speechless at your response. It seems wikipedia has been taken over by those who are clearly biased against Muslims.
you say and I quote "Wikipedia articles are never reliable sources, and scriptures (the Qu'ran, the Bible, etc.) are primary sources which can only be cited very sparingly literally and only for exactly what they say (i.e., they cannot be interpretted as you were doing in your suggested edit)."
Only for exactly what they say i.e. they cannot be interpretted? Really? Have you never come across any interpretations of the texts of Bible (or for that matter any other book) on Wikipedia?
You want exact words?
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Samuel%2017
48 As the Philistine moved closer to attack him, David ran quickly toward the battle line to meet him.
49 Reaching into his bag and taking out a stone, he slung it and struck the Philistine on the forehead. The stone sank into his forehead, and he fell facedown on the ground.
50 So David triumphed over the Philistine with a sling and a stone; without a sword in his hand he struck down the Philistine and killed him.
51 David ran and stood over him. He took hold of the Philistine’s sword and drew it from the sheath. After he killed him, he cut off his head with the sword.When the Philistines saw that their hero was dead, they turned and ran.
52 Then the men of Israel and Judah surged forward with a shout and pursued the Philistines to the entrance of Gath[f] and to the gates of Ekron. Their dead were strewn along the Shaaraim road to Gath and Ekron.
53 When the Israelites returned from chasing the Philistines, they plundered their camp.
54 David took the Philistine’s head and brought it to Jerusalem; he put the Philistine’s weapons in his own tent.
Now compare that to what I had written as was suggested to my first proposed edit (which I took without any issues as I could understand where the guy was coming from)
"Though on the other hand biblical accounts (i.e. Jewish and Christian traditions) show that some mighty prophets did indeed come with the sword as in the case of David vs Goliath (David killed him with his own sword and beheaded him) and he took part in battles and used the sword to kill his enemies i.e. enemies of God) - see Book of Samuel, 1 Samuel (17:1-58), Qur’an (2:251)"
So what is the difference? Don't those above two paragraphs imply the same thing? Or do you simply like the longer version better?
I don't even have to go far to prove how prejudice you are in your observation.
My suggested edit was in reply to this..
"The earliest documented Christian knowledge of Muhammad stems from Byzantine sources. They INDICATE that both Jews and Christians saw Muhammad as a "false prophet".
Indicate? Why I see no objection on not quoting directly from the Byzantine sources? So is it ok to say 'Byzantine sources indicate' yet 'Jewish and Christian traditions show' is incorrect? Perhaps I should have used the word INDICATE "instead" of "show"?
I could bring thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of examples where Bible (and other religious books) have been interpreted on Wikipedia itself. So why deny us something which is available to other faiths? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bmanzoor (talk • contribs) 16:02, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
- Please stop this right now. This is a Wikipedia article discussion, as such it is important for Wikipedians to be civil, assume good faith, and not make personal attacks. Please consider carefully the probability that your fellow editors' edits represent their understanding of Wikipedia policy and are aimed at making the article more encyclopedic. Peter Deer (talk) 16:21, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
Ok I apologise. Now do you have any answers to my aforementioned questions? I accepted the first rejection as it made sense and I did not complain at all. But what would you make of the basis for the second one?> — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bmanzoor (talk • contribs) 16:46, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
- First, religious texts are not relible sources of history.
- Second, you appear to attempt to defend your religion's prophet by arguing that someone else too had a sword in a story. Wikipedia is not a place for original research or religious one-upmanship. 88.112.59.31 (talk) 10:42, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
- Anon, cut it out with the personal attacks and the "your religion" stuff. Peter Deer (talk) 16:50, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
- Err, what? I have my religion, you have yours, someone else has his. We each may wish to discuss and defend our beliefs, but Wikipedia is not the place for it. Please accept my apologies if anyone was offended, as I will accept your apology for accusing me of attack. 88.112.59.31 (talk) 17:20, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
- I am glad you would accept my apology if I felt so inclined as to offer one, I would hate to think that you would hold a grudge even after accusing someone else of "religious one-upmanship" or "attempt to defend your religion's prophet" clearly justified such an admonishment. I am furthermore glad you agree that Wikipedia is not the place for religious arguments, and as such I hope you will not make any further statements about hypothetical religious motivations on the part of other editors when addressing the legitimacy of their edits and suggestions. Peter Deer (talk) 00:15, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
- Err, what? I have my religion, you have yours, someone else has his. We each may wish to discuss and defend our beliefs, but Wikipedia is not the place for it. Please accept my apologies if anyone was offended, as I will accept your apology for accusing me of attack. 88.112.59.31 (talk) 17:20, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
- Anon, cut it out with the personal attacks and the "your religion" stuff. Peter Deer (talk) 16:50, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
See what I meant, Peter? So does that mean Wikipedia from now on won't take quotes from Bible? - as it needs a RELIABLE source of history before it will quote anything (please also define RELIABLE for my information) I wonder how come pages of Muhammad, Jesus, Moses, Torah, Bible, Islam, priests, bishops, reverends, imams and umpteen others are full of quotes and interpretations from religious books?
Would Wikipedia like me to go through its pages and provide some shining examples?
"The earliest documented Christian knowledge of Muhammad stems from Byzantine sources. They indicate that both Jews and Christians saw Muhammad as a "false prophet". In the Doctrina Jacobi nuper baptizati of 634, Muhammad is portrayed as being "deceiving[,] for do prophets come with sword and chariot?, [...] you will discover nothing true from the said prophet except human bloodshed."[41]
Does Wikipedia consider the above paragraph neutral? It doesn't look neutral to me from any angle. It is an open attack on the personality and character of a person. You wouldn't find the above in a biography of someone. So why Can I not add something to it? The paragraph implies that Christians and Jews would consider any prophet to be without a sword and I am trying to rectify that from their own religious books that they have a prophet with a sword in their own history.
Does those who rejected my proposed edit even read the aforementioned paragraph? That paragraph talks from the point of view of Christians and Jews. So what did I do different? I brought something from the same point of view, did I not?
All I said was, I want to add some text. Just because it APPEARS to someone that it is an attempt for me to defend someone, it won't be accepted? Does Wikipedia even know what is going on here? Are these the kind of moderators/editors you have to make decisions for new users?
Why would you try your best to put off a new user? Isn't that how all the big companies treat their customers once they know they are too big and thus don't bother what their policies are? Has Wikipedia become too big to notice all this? Why do I have to go through this to post a few lines? It is nearly coming up to a week since I proposed my edit. Is this what I will have to go through every time I want to post something? Who decides between me and the other person? I am offended by his assumptions and accusations when all I am doing is adding a text on from the same sources! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bmanzoor (talk • contribs) 09:28, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
(RESUBMIT) EDIT REQUEST ON 22/04/12 ---- Non-Arabic Sources (2.4)
Kindly add the following after reference 41 (also see above discussion for my reason for resubmitting)
"Though on the other hand biblical accounts (i.e. Jewish and Christian traditions) indicate that some mighty prophets did indeed come with the sword as was in the case of David vs Goliath (David killed him with Goliath's own sword and beheaded him) and David took part in battles and used the sword to kill his enemies i.e. enemies of God) - see Book of Samuel, 1 Samuel (17:1-58), Qur’an (2:251)"
OR else put the following in (NOTE - not a single word in from me)
48 As the Philistine moved closer to attack him, David ran quickly toward the battle line to meet him.
49 Reaching into his bag and taking out a stone, he slung it and struck the Philistine on the forehead. The stone sank into his forehead, and he fell facedown on the ground.
50 So David triumphed over the Philistine with a sling and a stone; without a sword in his hand he struck down the Philistine and killed him.
51 David ran and stood over him. He took hold of the Philistine’s sword and drew it from the sheath. After he killed him, he cut off his head with the sword.When the Philistines saw that their hero was dead, they turned and ran.
52 Then the men of Israel and Judah surged forward with a shout and pursued the Philistines to the entrance of Gath[f] and to the gates of Ekron. Their dead were strewn along the Shaaraim road to Gath and Ekron.
53 When the Israelites returned from chasing the Philistines, they plundered their camp.
54 David took the Philistine’s head and brought it to Jerusalem; he put the Philistine’s weapons in his own tent.
YOU CHOSE (since it is obvious that these things are decided on personal taste) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bmanzoor (talk • contribs) 09:39, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
- All of that is your original research. You can't use primary sources to argue with the conclusions of secondary sources. I'm not saying that your argument is wrong, just that it's not how Wikipedia works. In any event, that stuff doesn't belong here anyway, because the whole point of that section is not to say whether or not Muhammad was a prophet in a Jewish/Christian perspective, but merely to note that this is the very first time Muhammad was described in Christian sources. Qwyrxian (talk) 10:56, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
It is getting weird by the minute. You tell me how to use the secondary sources to to argue with the conclusions of the secondary sources? Were those secondary sources not someone's primary sources? Why are you considering this an argument? I am only finishing up what the "EARLIEST DOCUMENTED CHRISTIAN KNOWLEDGE INDICATES". You allow a quote from " Doctrina Jacobi nuper baptizati" which is nothing but a naked assault on the character of this person. Why was the person who put this in not advised of not putting any primary sources in?
So nothing is wrong with the following?
1. Christian knowledge of Muhammad STEMS from 2. They INDICATE that both 3. SAW Muhammad as 4. is PORTRAYED as being
and then the person puts a direct quote in (using ORIGINAL RESEARCH) from these sources.
How do you suggest I put my proposed edit in? without research? but then you won't allow it because it lacks evidence. Without reference? then I get accused of interpreting stuff.
IF YOU WANT NEUTRALITY THEN THAT IS WHAT I AM DOING I.E. PROVIDING A COUNTER POINT OF VIEW TO BALANCE THE OTHER POINT OF VIEW.
How come it is OK to put in Muhammad with the sword (with quotes and references) but not ok to put in David with the sword (with references and quotes) ???
Furthermore, David became a king. You think kings rule without swords and infantry? Solomon had the biggest kingdom, Joseph became king of Egypt etc.
Why are you not being able to digest the hypocrisy of "Doctrina Jacobi nuper baptizati"?
For do prophets come with sword? (just because Jesus didn't come with the sword, doesn't mean that no other holy person can carry the sword of justice either) Though Jesus on his second return will come with a sword and will kill the anti-christ!
- This is not an article about David, or Jesus. This is not an article about whey Muhammad is or is not considered a Christian prophet (that is Medieval Christian views on Muhammad). In any event, please read WP:OR, because your suggested edits are original research. I have really nothing more to add to this, because if you're unable/unwilling to recognize this basic policy of WIkipedia, there's not really much I or anyone else can do to help you. Qwyrxian (talk) 12:06, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
No, actually I suggest YOU go and READ WP:OR, because it CLEARLY states the following:
1. The term "original research" (OR) is used on Wikipedia to refer to material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist.[1]
You will find below many links which point to a RELIABLE PUBLISHED SOURCE!
2. The prohibition against OR means that all material added to articles must be ATTRIBUTABLE to a RELIABLE PUBLISHED source, even if not actually attributed.[1]
Again, all I will say that kindly familiarise yourself with the Bible, especially the Book of Samuel, 1 Samuel (17:1-58)
1. Research that CONSISTS of collecting and organizing material from EXISTING sources within the provisions of this and other content policies is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia. Best practice is to research the most RELIABLE sources on the topic and SUMMARISE what they say in your own words, with each statement in the article attributable to a source that makes that statement explicitly. Source material should be carefully summarized or rephrased without changing its meaning or implication.
so how is my proposed edit an original research when I am clearly giving reference to a PUBLISHED RELIABLE SOURCE?
Book of Samuel, 1 Samuel (17:1-58)
http://bible.org/seriespage/david-and-goliath-1-samuel-171-58
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Samuel+17&version=NIV
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=1sa&c=17
http://www.biblestudytools.com/1-samuel/passage.aspx?q=1-samuel+17:1-58
http://www.sljinstitute.net/sermons/topical_studies/pages/life_david2.html
According to the words of a Dr. S. Lewis Johnson, Jr. (see above link - sljinstitute)
"Tonight, in the second of our studies in the life of David, we are turning to 1 Samuel chapter 17 and we are studying the incident of David and Goliath tonight. THIS IS ONE OF THE MOST FAMILIAR OF ALL THE STORIES IN THE BIBLE OF COURSE. I remember many years ago when I preached my first sermon on David and Goliath. It was not my first sermon by a long shot. In fact I had preached for a considerable period of time, and when I told my son at home that it was the first sermon that I had ever preached on David and Goliath he said, “Well that’s one of the first I would preach on. I know it so well.” And I remember that at the time that comment struck me as being true to life because it was one of the stories that I remembered from my Sunday school, my checkered Sunday school history, I might say. This story is one that I do remember. But so far as the lessons and the spiritual significance of it are concerned, that’s something that I never did learn when I studied it in Sunday school."
http://www.rondaniel.com/library/09-1Samuel/1Samuel1701.html
http://www.stephenricker.com/study/1samuel/1SamuelStudy8comments.htm
WOULD YOU LIKE ALL OF THE 273,000 RESULTS THAT COME UP ON GOOGLE?
Yet you say "ALL OF THAT is your original research"?
WHY HIDE YOUR BIGOTRY BEHIND POLICIES?
Remember Wikipedia's Original Research policy
"Best practice is to research the most RELIABLE sources on the topic and SUMMARISE what they say in your own words, with each statement in the article attributable to a source that makes that statement explicitly." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.244.226.122 (talk) 14:41, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
- I'm going to try to answer your concerns, although it seems to me the other editors have answered all of this already:
- You are trying to add content to the article that asks the reader to compare Muhammad with other biblical figures, such as David, etc. As support for your comparisons, you reference biblical studies of those other figures. This is, by definition, original research, as per WP:SYNTH, as you are doing an original synthesis of published materials: Reliable source A gives a certain description of Muhammad, reliable source B gives a certain description of other biblical figure, you write conclusion C: they are compariable figures. That's original research, and no amount of writing in capital letters or repetition of the same argument is going to change that.
- The links you provided are not reliable sources. A reliable source is a third-party, published source, that has a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. A bible study website or a minister's sermon is not a reliable source on how Muhammad compares to other biblical figures.
- Wikipedia's policy on a neutral point of view does not require that an article on a religious figure requires that there be a comparison with another religion's description of other religious figures. Your rhetorical question above ("How come it is OK to put in Muhammad with the sword (with quotes and references) but not ok to put in David with the sword (with references and quotes) ???") is irrelevant to this article. The purpose of this article to provide an encyclopedic article on the subject (in this case, Muhammad). The article on David is a place to provide information about how various religions have viewed David.
- You may be misinterpreting the reason mention is made in the article of the "sword and chariot" in an early Christian text (which claimed that Muhammad could not be a prophet for that reason). The quote is not there for the purpose of suggesting that Muhammad is or is not a prophet (Wikipedia, for very obvious reasons, is neutral on that issue). The quote is to show one of the earliest Christian texts that talks about Muhammad, in order to show when he started to appear as a figure in texts and literature outside of the Arabic world. Singularity42 (talk) 15:24, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
chaldean not arab
we muslims know that the prophet's ancestor is ibrahim who is chaldean not arab
so why does this article say he's arab? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.201.63.24 (talk) 04:35, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
- Simply put wikipedia does not care what you, I or the leader of country X knows. It has to be verified by reliable sources in order to be usable in an article. 214.27.58.2 (talk) 15:13, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
- There is no need to be rude, 214.27.58.2, it's not helpful.
- As to your concern, 88.201.63.24, it may be entirely valid if you can produce reliable, verifiable, third-party sources as citations. Here are some guidelines which may be helpful in doing this:
- I hope these help. If you're familiar with sources on the subject of Abraham/Ibrahim that qualify, by all means be bold and include them. Peter Deer (talk) 19:55, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
- I wasn't being rude. I summed up those wikipedia policies and how they work. If I was being rude I would have used for less civil language as well as most likely made disparaging remarks. 214.27.58.2 (talk) 01:32, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
- I accept that you do not feel you were being rude. I disagree. I accept that it is possible you could have been ruder, and thank you for not being so. By the same token, I could be more chastising, though I did not feel that was necessary or productive. Let's both exercise restraint and forebearance. Peter Deer (talk) 01:49, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
- I wasn't being rude. I summed up those wikipedia policies and how they work. If I was being rude I would have used for less civil language as well as most likely made disparaging remarks. 214.27.58.2 (talk) 01:32, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
GA Reassessment
- This discussion is transcluded from Talk:Muhammad/GA3. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the reassessment.
At this point in time, the article meets Quickfail criteria for GA Status: 4.1 The article is or has been the subject of ongoing or recent, unresolved edit wars. There have been 30 reverts/undos to this article since the beginning of March 2012. A Good article is: Stable - it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute. Veritycheck (talk) 10:34, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
- I disagree, as such a narrow interpretation would invalidate virtually every GA in a hot-button topic area. The reverts have been mostly to reverse the image removal and honorific additions by single-purpose accounts. There is no legitimate editorial "war" at this time. Tarc (talk) 13:07, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
- I also disagree. This GA reassessment is ill-conceived, and indicates a failure to understand the dynamics of contentious articles that have GA status. The history of reverts in the past 30 days consists predominantly of new editors making non-substantive changes (such as removing depictions of Muhammad, adding honorifics to Muhammad's name, or adding scriptural references) based on a personal religious viewpoint, in an effort to respect the subject as their religion demands, not as demanded by a secular encyclopedia. ~Amatulić (talk) 16:38, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
- There is a difference between being persistently vandalized or having repeated nonconstructive edits made because of the extremely controversial nature of the article and the article actually having a lot of real changes made on a regular basis. To my knowledge, as has been mentioned, most of the "edit warring" has been Muslims coming here who are new to Wikipedia and don't understand why people insist on putting images of the Prophet there, or why there are not honorifics showing proper respect, and they don't make lasting changes. It's certainly much better maintained in this regard than most other Islam-related articles. Peter Deer (talk) 03:16, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
- I also disagree; a diff from 1 March to now (when carefully read) shows little change, & in fact the article is rather stable. Johnbod (talk) 23:55, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
- Measuring stability is not as simple as counting the number of edits in a given time. An article is unstable when it is undergoing massive changes (which obviously makes it hard to review). Minor edits and vandalism reversions do not count. To delist an article for stability it must have undergone substantial change (Taiwan was recently delisted for this reason after a merge). Not seeing that here and would recommend Veritycheck withdraws this re-assessment. AIRcorn (talk) 14:07, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- Invalid rationale. There is no evidence of edit warring, only single edits being reverted and discussed. That is not Wikipedia:Edit warring. See discussion below about the nature of reverts. The only actual warring I have seen has come from Veritycheck, who made two reverts in a short period to an old, outdated version of the lead section. ~Amatulić (talk) 15:29, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- I have only made a single revert (20:52, 10 May 2012) since coming to this article with a total of two additional unique edits to the page other than a format change. Please check your records. Thanks Veritycheck (talk) 15:47, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- Actually, no. First you reverted years of work to an outdated version of the lead, then you did it again. The article history speaks for itself. ~Amatulić (talk) 16:01, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- I agree with User:Amatulic. These reversals are needless. And also the note says, “vandalism reversions, proposals to split or merge content, good faith improvements to the page (such as copy editing), and changes based on reviewers' suggestions do not apply.” when considering de-listing an article from GA status, due to lack of "stability". Brendon ishere 16:59, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- Actually, no. First you reverted years of work to an outdated version of the lead, then you did it again. The article history speaks for itself. ~Amatulić (talk) 16:01, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- Amatulić, I have already urged you to check the revision history to verify the accuracy of your claim of repeated reverts on my part. I politely ask you, one last time, to do this once again with great care. The article history does not, in fact, corroborate your accusation. Consequently, I find it both offensive and misrepresentative. Another editor has in fact respectfully issued an apology to me for making a similar mistake concerning this. In order to support your claim, please provide the dates of repeated reverts you reference in your comment that states, “First you reverted years of work to an outdated version of the lead, then you did it again”. If you are unable to prove your allegation, I would appreciate you to recant it here. Let's resolve this without leaving any doubt.
- The following is an edit summary including each and every of the 4 total edits I have made to the article. These are presented here for your benefit or any other interested party:
- 20:30, 10 May 2012 Veritycheck (talk | contribs) . . (152,238 bytes) (+1,412) . . (Restored part of the intro to that originally used when this article last passed GA. See Talk Page) (undo)
- First edit (unique) - used three NPOV sentences in total from the entirety of the Muhammad article that had last passed GAN. Additionally repositioned another sentence from the more recent article to rectify issues of repetition. Lastly, promoted a footnote comment from the bottom of the current version of the article (at the time of my edit) into the intro restoring Weight, Balance and NPOV. Before my edit, only a western perspective held by some scholars was presented concerning the founding of Islam. This is discussed in detail here.
- 20:52, 10 May 2012 Veritycheck (talk | contribs) . . (152,238 bytes) (+1,412) . . (Undid revision 491870318 by Amatulic (talk)Please be precise on the talk page with what you specifically take issue with and present your alternative.) (undo)
- Second edit – a revert (my first and only)
- 13:21, 12 May 2012 Veritycheck (talk | contribs) . . (149,911 bytes) (+135) . . (Neither removed nor added anything new. Replaced the cited footnote comment with a sentence in the lead to maintain WP:NPOV, WP:BALANCE, WP:WEIGHT) (undo)
- Third edit (unique) – my last contribution to the article, consisting of a cited single sentence. Contained nothing from any old outdated version.
- 14:28, 12 May 2012 Veritycheck (talk | contribs) . . (148,228 bytes) (-49) . . (Delisting as a GA per Talk:Muhammad/GA3) (undo)
- Fourth edit - Delisting
- Awaiting your reply first and foremost. Regards, Veritycheck (talk) 22:00, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- this diff was your first revert, using the edit summary Restored part of the intro to that originally used when this article last passed GA. It is irrelevant that this was your first edit, that doesn't make it somehow a non-revert. Even the words you chose in your edit summary ("restored") were characteristic of a revert. After I restored the status quo, you did not follow WP:BRD (another sign of edit-warring) but chose instead to restore that outdated prior version yet again. Please keep in mind that none of this in any way is meant to imply that your efforts were done in bad faith, and if that's how you took it I do indeed apologize, but reverts are reverts no matter how you try to cast them. ~Amatulić (talk) 22:19, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- Your evaluation is not my own. My first edit was unique. It did contain two sentences, which were well thought-out from the last GAN. This made up a portion of the edit but was not the extent of it. If you look at both edits as I have posted below, the one from four years ago juxtaposed with the one I made, you will see that it is no simple revert; they are not identical. I built upon a prior foundation using what was already in place and then formed an original edit. I see editing as something more than the addition of new material. It's also paying attention to nuance and keeping what is valuable, verifiable and presenting it in an NPOV package. This is what I mean by “crafting”. Like a good wine, no? My edit sought to use the best of the past; incorporating current facts from the most recent article and then developing it further. The content of my edit had most definitely evolved from the 4 year old edit. Perhaps you thought it merely a revert to an old outdated version. If you did, you may have overlooked my own additions, and those parts of the original intro I chose to leave out. The two edits are not the same. Take a closer look. Compare and contrast.
- From the original 4 year-old GAN
- Abu l-Qasim Muhammad ibn ‘Abd Allāh al-Hashimi al-Qurashi (Arabic: أبو القاسم محمّد, Transliteration: Abu l-Qāsim Muḥammad;[2] IPA: [mʊħɑmmæd̪]; Mohammed, Muhammed, Mahomet)[3][4][5] (ca. 570 Mecca – June 8 632 Medina),[6] was the central human figure of the world religion of Islam and is regarded by Muslims as the messenger and prophet of God (Arabic: الله Allāh), the last and the greatest in a series of prophets of Islam. Muslims consider him the restorer of the original monotheistic faith (islām)
of Adam, Abraham, Moses, Noahand other prophets of Isam.[7][8][9] He was also active as a diplomat, merchant, philosopher, orator, legislator, military general, and, according to Muslim belief, restorer of faith and an agent of divine action.[10]
- My first edit that you consider a revert
- Abu l-Qasim Muhammad ibn ‘Abd Allāh al-Hashimi al-Qurashi (Arabic: أبو القاسم محمّد, Transliteration: Abu l-Qāsim Muḥammad;[2] IPA: [mʊħɑmmæd̪]; Mohammed, Muhammed, Mahomet)[3][4][5] (ca. 570 Mecca – June 8 632 Medina),[6] was the central human figure of the world religion of Islam and is regarded by Muslims and Bahá'ís as the messenger and prophet of God (Arabic: الله Allāh), the last and the greatest in a series of prophets of Islam.[7] He was also active as a diplomat, merchant, philosopher, orator, legislator, military general, and, according to Muslim belief, restorer of faith and an agent of divine action.[8] Although Western scholars regard Muhammad as the founder of Islam, Muslims believe that monotheistic faith was not created by a human but was revealed by God.[9][10]
- Breakdown of the contents of my edit:
- 2 elements - restored two sentences from the original
- 1 element - rejected from the original. This was not included in my edit – regarding other named prophets
- 2 elements - added two new elements not found in the original edit, namely the perspective of Bahais - taken from the current article, and then added the NPOV BALANCE WEIGHT - sentence addressing both Western/Islamic perspectives on the founding of Islam also not present in the original GAN.
- The edit was unique having combined both new and older facets. If you didn’t like it, I would have been happy to discuss what exactly you took issue with and listened to your feedback. I invited you to do so. However, you chose to respond by throwing around bad faith accusations of edit-warring, disruption, and repeated reverts of years of good work. Additionally, abrasive comments found both here and in Revision History from you such as, "Ridiculous", or "Do you even know what", were not respectful even if you disagreed with me. They are uncalled for, untrue and undeservedly harsh; whether you were aware of it or not. Nevertheless, I have remained civil and extended you the benefit of the doubt, not answering in kind - until perhaps now. I've been transparent and have laid everything out here. Whatever the case, further discussion seems pointless. You’re welcome to your opinion. I’ll keep mine. It’s on the record and I am content with that. Lastly, I don't believe this discussion is any longer appropriate here. This will be my last response on this. This is a GAR Talk-Page. Back to good faith. I'm moving on. Veritycheck (talk) 03:00, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
- One can always improve a GA with edits made in good-faith (that's what wikipedia is all about), to somehow imply that the edits that don't conform with views of some editors, are just not okay, would be a mistake. The edit summary of this reversion really doesn't reek of any improvement.
- A hasty delisting of this article as a GA (before the discussion is resolved) is not what we need right now. We're here to improve Wikipedia in whatever little way we can, right? So, why not just do that instead of squandering time in needless repeated reassessments of Good-articles? I personally think it's as good an article as most. Brendon ishere 09:33, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
- The edit was unique having combined both new and older facets. If you didn’t like it, I would have been happy to discuss what exactly you took issue with and listened to your feedback. I invited you to do so. However, you chose to respond by throwing around bad faith accusations of edit-warring, disruption, and repeated reverts of years of good work. Additionally, abrasive comments found both here and in Revision History from you such as, "Ridiculous", or "Do you even know what", were not respectful even if you disagreed with me. They are uncalled for, untrue and undeservedly harsh; whether you were aware of it or not. Nevertheless, I have remained civil and extended you the benefit of the doubt, not answering in kind - until perhaps now. I've been transparent and have laid everything out here. Whatever the case, further discussion seems pointless. You’re welcome to your opinion. I’ll keep mine. It’s on the record and I am content with that. Lastly, I don't believe this discussion is any longer appropriate here. This will be my last response on this. This is a GAR Talk-Page. Back to good faith. I'm moving on. Veritycheck (talk) 03:00, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
- First, I thank the other editors who have expressed their opinions so far. Having experience in controversial topics such as this one and having participated in other GA reassessments myself, I do not come to the table empty handed or ill-informed.
- As a consensus can change over time, so in fact do articles that were once WP:GA. Another editor rightly pointed out, nothing is written in stone. This is precisely one reason for vigilance. The article on Muhammad has changed substantially since it was last reviewed some 4 years ago, see July 5, 2008. Sections that were deemed WP:NPOV have shifted since that time and are no longer balanced. Yes, some recent reverts concern pictures and honorifics, but those cases are not the ones which concern me. Moreover, reverts are only one symptom of problems here.
- Contrary to an assumption made previously on the part of another editor, I have taken great lengths to go back through the talk pages and have witnessed a revolving door of editors, both registered and not, who have come to the talk page to have their valuable input on various elements of this article dismissed; certainly not always for valid reasons. Their consensus seems of little concern to some, even though they may number more than the editors whose rejections turn them away; not really a good practice for evaluating a consensus or consensus building.
- The article’s current western bias in the opening paragraph must be put in check. Our leading paragraph shows that Mohammad is the founder of Islam only stating what might be a Western perspective held by some at best and completely at odds with what a billion other people living on the planet hold true. Neither the Islamic perspective nor a global one concerning this has been presented but for a small footnote. See Need for consistency: Founding of Islam. Is this Western Wikipedia or the international English language site? Is this appropriate for an article of this nature? We need to get back to WP:NPOV.
- I would ask that other editors participate in this. This is not about WP:BURDEN which concerns citations and NOT consensus . The citations are both plentiful and valid. This is about presenting facts clearly while paying attention to their weight involving the collaboration of editors rather than only elitist gate-keeping. I would like to see this article brought back to the quality it once was when it originally passed the WP:GA review.
- We could start doing that by improving the opening paragraph. I have already given it a shot. I ask other editors to do the same if they were not happy with my choice of restoring it to that of the last GA edit. If there are not enough current editors here to sort it out, I can initiate an RfC to help build a better consensus. What are your thoughts?
- Lastly, I find it distasteful and inappropriate of two editors here who sought to lecture me on edit-warring after I had made a single revert and single edit to this article alone since participating here. I am well aware of what edit-warring is and seeing it cease is one of the main reasons I have come to this page. Let’s have a little good faith. Thanks for taking the time to read this lengthy reply and for any input you can make in improving this article. Veritycheck (talk) 00:20, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- None of that really has much to do with what you claimed initially though, re stability. The requests made by random IPs and throwaway accounts are of no value whatsoever to this article, and are not in any way a factor to consider in the stability of the article. Tarc (talk) 00:47, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, there seems to be unanimous agreement that the GA reassessment rationale of "unstable" is invalid. I recommend this case be withdrawn on that basis.
- Furthermore, to address Veritycheck's statements above:
- The views of random people who make drive-by comments objecting to something hardly constitutes a "consensus". That's simply an outside view. Consensus is something that must be worked at to achieve.
- Discussions about the word "founder" are not relevant to this GA reassessment. The consensus has been, and continues to be, that "founder" is a neutral secular term, and the Islamic viewpoint is stated in the article; therefore there is no NPOV issue. Whether the Islamic view is in a footnote or the body is a separate matter and getting along quite well elsewhere on Talk:Muhammad.
- I don't recall anyone lecturing Veritycheck about edit-warring, although the article's editing history shows a clear disregard for WP:BRD.
- If there are citation issues as Jayen indicated, then fix them, that's simple enough. Otherwise I believe it's time to withdraw this GA reassessment. ~Amatulić (talk) 17:58, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- It's not just citation issues; the article no longer bears much likeness to what was there when it achieved GA status. We talked about having a GAR in January, and postponed it because of the image arbitration. As that is over, now would be a good time to look at the text. Prose issues are considerable; just look at the very first section, Names and appellations in the Quran. It would be good to get a group effort going to get the article up to scratch. JN466 02:02, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- I don't think that good faith edits to improve the page (e.g. copy editing), and changes based on reviewers' suggestions, apply here. I believe the editors ought to pay heed to User:Amatulic's suggestion. If there is an issue, then fix it. Why so much agitation over this simple thing? Brendon ishere 17:04, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- It's not just citation issues; the article no longer bears much likeness to what was there when it achieved GA status. We talked about having a GAR in January, and postponed it because of the image arbitration. As that is over, now would be a good time to look at the text. Prose issues are considerable; just look at the very first section, Names and appellations in the Quran. It would be good to get a group effort going to get the article up to scratch. JN466 02:02, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- The text has multiple problems and needs serious work before it is anywhere near GA standard. --JN466 00:54, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Well Jayen, you're entitled to your opinion, although I disagree. Brendon ishere 17:08, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Lead: "Discontented with life in Mecca, he retreated to a cave in the surrounding mountains for meditation and reflection. According to Islamic beliefs it was here, at age 40,[4][7] in the month of Ramadan, where he received his first revelation from God." This makes Muhammad sound like he was a hermit living in a cave. He wasn't. What sources (e.g. Watt, Muhammad: Prophet and Statesman) say is that he periodically, for several nights at a time, retired to a cave for meditation and prayer. Plus, this has nothing to do with Islamic belief. Muhammad is a historic person. He said this is what happened, and no one doubts that he said so. Suggest, Being in the habit of periodically retreating to a cave in the surrounding mountains for several nights of meditation and prayer, he later reported that it was there, at age 40,[4][7] that he received his first revelation from God. or some similar wording. --JN466 01:01, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
We also have a couple of "citation needed" and a "not in citation given". JN466 01:12, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
The evaluation on the part of a single editor that there is a “unanimous” consensus here in favour of GA status based on stability alone is hasty at best and inadequate in resolving this. It is not salient as to whether GA Criteria has been met. It only addresses a single aspect. Stability is only one factor and not the only problem with the article at this time. Comments from editors up till now who have voiced their opinions demonstrate that the article does not meet GA criteria for also additional reasons:
JN466: “The text has multiple problems and needs serious work before it is anywhere near GA standard”
Qwyrxian: “this article's lead is improperly imbalanced towards a secular view””
MarshalN20: “the article does not follow WP:NPOV”
Veritycheck: “Sections that were deemed WP:NPOV have shifted since that time and are no longer balanced”
The GAR will remain open for the time being to see if a true consensus can in reality be reached that the article does in fact meet ALL criteria for GA. If that does not happen shortly, I will recommend delisting it. That being said, it is positive that there now seems to be the desire on behalf of many editors to get it right. I do, however, find it potentially troublesome that many of the proposed edits found in the Lead sentence alternatives section below seem WP:Original. I suggest making use of the already vast amount of reliable citations we currently have utilized in our Islamic articles to craft any new sentences that are introduced, particularly concerning the opening paragraph. Veritycheck (talk) 12:38, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
It is now apparent that the article meets at least 3 quickfails:
- contains significant close paraphrasing or copyright violations (in clear breach with several instances already found – See Copy & Paste)
- is treated in an obviously non-neutral way (subjective)
- is or has been the subject of ongoing or recent, unresolved edit wars (subjective)
Any singular violation is sufficient for removing the article without further review. Consequently, I am delisting it from our GA articles immediately. It seems that getting it back to quality involves much more than what was originally anticipated. Veritycheck (talk) 14:07, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- Concur with delisting per Anthony's and Moonriddengirl's comments. [1] JN466 00:04, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- Disagree with the last two point (but agree they're subjective), and agree that the first point about copyvio is a valid reason to delist from GA. ~Amatulić (talk) 16:01, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- Disagree with the last two quick fail criteria that have been mentioned by User:Veritycheck.
- The article is not treated in an obviously non-neutral way. The note4 says, “Articles on controversial topics can be both neutral and stable, but this is only ensured if regular editors make scrupulous efforts to keep the article well-referenced.” Editors of that article do make scrupulous efforts to keep the article well-referenced. That, in turn, nullifies the validity as well as applicability of that criterion, I think. There is not much undue weight given to any POV claim.
- The article is not the subject of an ongoing or recent edit wars that are unresolved. So, what's the problem? Regarding second criterion, I should clarify that “vandalism reversions, proposals to split or merge content, good faith improvements to the page (such as copy editing), and changes based on reviewers' suggestions do not apply.” (source here)
- I think Muhammad article meets every criterion listed in this section of WP:WIAGA. Brendon ishere 16:21, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Need for consistency: Founding of Islam
Currently, our various articles on Islam here at Wikipedia provide contrary information regarding Muhammad’s role in the founding of Islam. The articles below reveal this:
Islam “However, Muslims do not view Muhammad as the creator of Islam, but instead regard him as the last messenger of God, through which the Qur'an was revealed.” Citations: Esposito (1998), p.12 Esposito (2002b), pp.4–5 F. E. Peters (2003), p.9 "Muhammad". Encyclopædia Britannica Online.
Muhammad in Islam “Although Western scholars regard Muhammad as the founder of Islam,[3] Muslims believe that monotheistic faith was not created by a human but was revealed by God.” Citations: Catholic Encyclopedia, Mohammed and Mohammedanism, retrieved July 03, 2010
Prophets in Islam “Although many lay Muslims and many Western scholars and writers hold the view that Islam began with Muhammad in Mecca, this contradicts the Quran, which says that Muhammad simply was the last prophet who preached the same faith that Adam preached to his children.” Citations: None
Muhammad “Muhammad (c. 26 April 570 – 8 June 632;[ also transliterated as Mohammad, Mohammed, or Muhammed; Arabic: مُحَمَّد), full name: Muhammad Ibn `Abd Allāh Ibn `Abd al-Muttalib (Arabic: مُحَمَّد بِن عَبْدَالله بِن عَبْد اَلْمُطَّلِب) was the founder of the religion of Islam.” Citations: Rodinson (2002)
In the first three, it is clearly communicated that Muslims, themselves, do not see Muhammad as the founder of Islam. Yet, in the case of our article, Muhammad, the same information is relegated to a smaller-font footnote at the bottom of the page. I believe we can better craft a sentence in the opening paragraph here, which reflects the Islamic viewpoint not just leaving it to a footnote. Clearly more is needed.
The use of Help:Footnotes is suited for - citations, which identify sources, or as an explanatory footnote which is a comment too detailed or awkward to include in the body of the article.
This is not such a situation. Our article needs to communicate in a much more balanced and clear-cut way both Western and Islamic perspectives on this. If any other editor would like to do make the edit, please be BOLD and get to work! Otherwise, I’ll be happy to do so myself. Let’s improve this. Veritycheck (talk) 23:16, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
- I have restored the opening in the first paragraph using original sentences that began this article when it was last listed as WP:GA - July 5, 2008. At that time, our intro was in line with WP:NPOV and WP:Balance. The fundamental point of view that Muhammad is not considered by Muslims to be the founder of Islam was neither diminished nor consigned to a mere note at the bottom of the page. Somehow, in the ensuing years, this essential tenet lost its prominent place of importance. I have corrected that with this edit.
- Furthermore, I have added the line “Although Western scholars regard Muhammad as the founder of Islam, Muslims believe that monotheistic faith was not created by a human but was revealed by God”, with its citations to show that Western scholars believe otherwise; thus preserving this alternative perspective. Veritycheck (talk) 20:32, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- I consider this highly disruptive, disregarding years of discussion and consensus that are available in the talk page archives. Articles that reach GA are not set in stone, they can still evolve while retaining GA status. I find it also curious that Veritycheck initiated a flawed GA reassessment based on perceived instability, then reinforces it by introducing instability. While I applaud efforts to copy-edit the intro to provide a balanced and clear view of Islamic and Western perspectives, merely reverting to an outdated revision is not the way to do this. ~Amatulić (talk) 20:48, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- I have added nothing new, but rather tried to bring this article back to WP:GA. It would be most helpful to address the issue of the Founding of Islam and not side-step it. What is your opinion here? Clarity would be most useful. Are you content with an introduction that no longer says Muslims, themselves, do not regard Muhammad as the founder of Islam? Are you content with an intro that only espouses a Western perspective on Mohammad? I would be happy to see your own edit as I have previously encouraged others to do. Lets work together. Veritycheck (talk) 21:10, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- You aren't trying "to bring this article back to WP:GA". It already is GA. The lead has evolved over years of discussion and consensus; you don't simply disregard that and revert to an outdated version.
- If you had looked through the archives, you would have seen quite clearly my own views on this matter. I'll reiterate: I don't advocate the term "founder". Rather, I doubt any Muslim or Westerner would disagree that Muhammad "introduced" Islam to the world. But I have no problem with the article using "founder".
- Furthermore, while explaining the differences between Western and Islamic viewpoints makes sense for the Islamic articles you mention, it is not appropriate for the lead in a biography article. In this article, the explanation is best relegated to a footnote — as has been previously agreed. The WP:BURDEN is on you to convince the community otherwise. ~Amatulić (talk) 21:53, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
From any secular perspective, Muhammad was the founder of Islam. There's no trace of the belief system prior to his existence. I do, however, prefer the lead paragraph circa http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Muhammad&oldid=487277380 , which states the discrepancy between secular perspectives and Islamic beliefs in the first paragraph of the article rather than deferring it to a footnote.—Kww(talk) 00:07, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
I think it makes sense to have both views in the lead, provided they are both reliably sourced. I wouldn't mind the prophet view first and the founder view second. What I particularly dislike about the current founder sentence is that it seems that "was" should be "is" or founder should be ditched for "founded." At any rate, as with the last time this was discussed, when I suggested "7th century (1st century A.H.) proponent of the religion of Islam", we should paraphrase whatever the sources say, and very closely paraphrase or even quote, to the extent we editors can't agree on the paraphrase. I also think that "prophet," "founder" or "proponent" are trying in many ways to describe the same thing.Alanscottwalker (talk) 02:37, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
Earlier I reverted an edit by Veritycheck and my edit summary was incorrect. I mistakenly thought that he had made more than one revert and put WP:EDITWARRING in the summary but this was not the case. For obvious reasons he asked that I clarify this here. SÆdontalk 02:57, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Veritycheck asked me to comment here (I don't know specifically why he notified me, though I believe I've weighed in on this issue before). Speaking from a policy consideration, the GA issue is a red herring, as Amtaulic alludes to. GA articles can change over time by consensus; the only real time it should really be taken into account is that right after an article is promoted, it's probably best to assume that current article has consensus. However, note that a GA review does not consider issues such as "What is the best way to represent Fact X?" GA reviews, rather, revolve much more around formatting, quality of sources, and breadth of coverage.
- Having said that, I believe that Veritycheck is correct that this article's lead is improperly imbalanced towards a secular view of Mohammad. Having one comment in the main text, with the counter view in a footnote, clearly favors one position over another. I would be shocked if someone could prove to me that the significant majority of reliable sources (and note that many documents written from an Islamic perspective will qualify as reliable sources for this matter, so long as they are written by experts, and/or peer reviewed) say that Muhammad is the founder of Islam. Now, I admit, I don't have evidence other than the broad numbers of adherants on my side, either. But a basic first glance sure indicates to me that this does not meet WP:UNDUE.
- One final point: some people start to breach, above, the idea that this is a "secular" biography. That notion is ludicrous and has no basis in WP policy; in fact, specifically making this the "secular" biography would make this violate WP:NPOV, by choosing one side (the side that does not see Mohammad's story in the context of the divine) over the other. I'm personally willing to go so far as to give slight precedence to the secular view, but not as far as now. Would anyone be willing to entertain a compromise that kept the lead sentence as it is, but simply moved (with a little bit of rephrasing) the footnote into the lead itself? This parallels Kww's suggestion, and matches Alanscottwalker's (I've been preparing this for a while now and they've both posted similar things in the meanwhile) which I also think has merit worth considering. Qwyrxian (talk) 02:59, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for Veritycheck who has taken up the point again which I pointed out in earlier discussion and at least got added the foot note. Many thanks to all others who got understanding this time that Islamic view point also to be given equal space in lead Para as Wikipedia is common platform and Muhammad being known to Islamic source better. Hope someone more English may pl. be phrase the sentence properly now and edit.--Md iet (talk) 09:49, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
I think we could try to find a wording along the lines of "...Islam was introduced by Mohammad, according to Muslims he was the prophet who delivered the word of God, while in a secular context he is regarded as the founder of Islam..." This seems to be one of those occasions when neutrality is best served by acknowledging a difference of opinion (which may serve the rest of the article quite well) though trying to avoid going into too much detail in the lead. In context, the views of (the majority of mainstream) Muslims are key to an understanding even as a historical figure.
It may be interesting to note the views of early followers, as this may be relevant to historical interpretations. ChrisHodgesUK (talk) 12:43, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- You can't use what passed good article criteria in 2008 to say what one would be today as standards have changed. For example in the 2008 version there are multiple links in the opening to the same article, links to dates, links to incorrect articles and links to common terms. In the first paragraph it tells the reader twice that Muslims see him as the restorer of Islam. By the way the opening of the 2008 version does not say how people other than Muslims view Muhammad. However, balance can't be brought about by saying that Muslims view him as one thing and as another by secularists. That would mean that the views of over 5 billion people are not represented. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 14:25, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- I completely agree with the proposal raised by Verity. In its present state, the article does not follow WP:NPOV or common sense. The article cannot assert that Muhammad is the "founder of Islam" if there is significant debate between Muslim scholars and Western scholars. The correct thing to do, in this case, is to present both points of view equally in the lead.
- The claims that Wikipedia is a "secular project" are complete nonsense, and trying to promote such things does actually break WP:NOT (Specifically: [2]). It would be like someone trying to claim that Wikipedia is a "religious project". Wikipedia is nothing more than an online encyclopedia; well, that and maybe "The Free Encyclopedia". Regards.--MarshalN20 | Talk 16:46, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- The issue here is that to a Western reader, it is not obvious why Muhammad would not be the "founder of Islam" even given beliefs that he received the Quran from God. I mean, there was a time when there were no Muslims, no Islamic holy places or texts; then there was a time when there was; and who was the first person to be one of the Muslims? How does his being the founder of Islam contradict a divine origin for its beliefs? Wnt (talk) 17:16, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- To some extent, all religious adherents believe "god" is the founder of their religion, be it directly or through divine inspiration. NPOV is tricky here, because one on hand we know for a fact that Muhammad founded the religion by the normal use of the word found, while the Islamic position is a faith based position with no evidence that leads us to believe it's anymore true than god talking to Moses or Shiva destroying the universe. So essentially we have to state a fact and then say that Muslims hold a faith based position contrary to a known fact. And when I say fact I mean it in a linguistic sense; that is, we have a certain definition for the word found and based on this definition Muhammad is incontrovertibly the founder (he, whether having talked to god or not, is the human who gave Islam to the world. He of course claims that his information is from god, but so does every other prophet). Whether we delve into this is going to depend one what we mean when we say we're a "secular" encyclopedia. SÆdontalk 18:12, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- I read the Jesus and Gautama Buddha articles, and neither mention in the first sentence either character being the "founders" of anything (The Buddha one actually goes on to mention that his teachings were the foundation of the religion; not the Buddha himself). Regards.--MarshalN20 | Talk 18:31, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Bad analogy. Jesus and Buddha did not set out to introduce a new religion, as Muhammad did. A better more parallel analogy would be Joseph Smith, who founded Mormonism, and who also is held by believers in similar regard, under similar circumstances complete with finished writings revealed directly from God. Nobody argues that he isn't the "founder", not even Mormons (as far as I know), who nevertheless consider Smith as God's messenger, similar to how Muslims view Muhammad. ~Amatulić (talk) 18:46, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- I doubt you talked to either Jesus or the Buddha to claim knowledge of their true intentions. The Smith article presents him as "the founder of the Latter Day Saint movement." It does not mention him as the founder of Mormonism, but rather presents the LDS movement as the founder of Mormonism. Regards.--MarshalN20 | Talk 18:56, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- What I wrote about intentions is the generally accepted view. It's a straw-man to point out that I didn't personally speak to Jesus or Buddha. You're right about LDS/Mormonism, but that's splitting hairs. The point I made still stands. Joseph Smith is believed by Mormons to have received a revelation from God, similar to what happened with Muhammad, resulting in the founding of a religion. ~Amatulić (talk) 19:02, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Someone else can probably express it better, but Muslims consider Muhammad as the last prophet in a line that includes Jesus, Moses and Abraham, and that at various times those who followed the Judaic, and Christian paths were led astray from the one decreed by God, so Islam is not a new religion founded by Muhammed but a set of instructions to return to the true path of the covenant made through Abraham.--KTo288 (talk) 11:00, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- What I wrote about intentions is the generally accepted view. It's a straw-man to point out that I didn't personally speak to Jesus or Buddha. You're right about LDS/Mormonism, but that's splitting hairs. The point I made still stands. Joseph Smith is believed by Mormons to have received a revelation from God, similar to what happened with Muhammad, resulting in the founding of a religion. ~Amatulić (talk) 19:02, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- I doubt you talked to either Jesus or the Buddha to claim knowledge of their true intentions. The Smith article presents him as "the founder of the Latter Day Saint movement." It does not mention him as the founder of Mormonism, but rather presents the LDS movement as the founder of Mormonism. Regards.--MarshalN20 | Talk 18:56, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Bad analogy. Jesus and Buddha did not set out to introduce a new religion, as Muhammad did. A better more parallel analogy would be Joseph Smith, who founded Mormonism, and who also is held by believers in similar regard, under similar circumstances complete with finished writings revealed directly from God. Nobody argues that he isn't the "founder", not even Mormons (as far as I know), who nevertheless consider Smith as God's messenger, similar to how Muslims view Muhammad. ~Amatulić (talk) 18:46, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- I read the Jesus and Gautama Buddha articles, and neither mention in the first sentence either character being the "founders" of anything (The Buddha one actually goes on to mention that his teachings were the foundation of the religion; not the Buddha himself). Regards.--MarshalN20 | Talk 18:31, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- To some extent, all religious adherents believe "god" is the founder of their religion, be it directly or through divine inspiration. NPOV is tricky here, because one on hand we know for a fact that Muhammad founded the religion by the normal use of the word found, while the Islamic position is a faith based position with no evidence that leads us to believe it's anymore true than god talking to Moses or Shiva destroying the universe. So essentially we have to state a fact and then say that Muslims hold a faith based position contrary to a known fact. And when I say fact I mean it in a linguistic sense; that is, we have a certain definition for the word found and based on this definition Muhammad is incontrovertibly the founder (he, whether having talked to god or not, is the human who gave Islam to the world. He of course claims that his information is from god, but so does every other prophet). Whether we delve into this is going to depend one what we mean when we say we're a "secular" encyclopedia. SÆdontalk 18:12, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
Lead sentence alternatives
The lead sentence should not dwell on the different perspectives of Muslims and others regarding whether Muhammad is the "founder" of Islam, because WP:LEAD requires that anything in the lead must provide an overview of the article. Making a point about a distinction that is not in the article body, and is irrelevant to this biography, is inappropriate per our guidelines.
That said, here are some alternatives I propose to the lead sentence, which currently reads "Muhammad ... was the founder of the religion of Islam." For heaven's sake, the very next sentence states the Muslim perspective.
- Muhammad ... was the discoverer of the religion of Islam.
- Muhammad ... first introduced to followers the now-global religion of Islam.
- Muhammad ... is considered by secular scholars as the founder of the religion of Islam. (This leads in nicely to the following sentence "He is considered by Muslims and Bahá'ís to be a messenger and prophet of God, and by Muslims the last law-bearer in a series of Islamic prophets.").
That last one wouldn't even need a footnote. ~Amatulić (talk) 18:15, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- My opinions: #1 is a POV problem because it insinuates that Islam existed at some point and then Muhammad discovered it, i.e. it's a true religion. #2 is incorrect because Muhammad didn't just introduce it to follows of Islam, but also to people who didn't and don't follow it. #3 appears to give undue weight to an idea held by only one group of people (albeit a big group, but only one as opposed to all other groups). SÆdontalk 18:28, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
I propose something different:
- Muhammad ... was an Arabian prophet from Mecca who unified the tribes of Arabia into a single Muslim religious polity.
The rest of the paragraph can discuss what secular scholars and muslims believe. Regards.--MarshalN20 | Talk 18:51, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Was Muhammad a prophet? Muslims obviously believe so, but that's not a secular position nor a position held by adherents to most other religions. SÆdontalk 18:55, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- At first look, I think that sentence is pretty good in that it focuses on the biography. Just change "prophet" to "leader" or some similar word. The problem with it is, it removes from the lead any explanation about what makes Muhammad notable. He is notable for bringing Islam to the world, and that really needs to be said up front. ~Amatulić (talk) 18:58, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, both of you are correct. Change "prophet" to either "leader" or "religious leader", and problem solved; right? Regards.--MarshalN20 | Talk 19:01, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Problem solved except for the fact that it removes any mention of Islam. ~Amatulić (talk) 19:04, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Alright, taking into account both of your suggestions:
- Muhammad ... was an Arabian prophet from Mecca who unified the tribes of Arabia into a single religious polity under Islam.
- As before, the rest of the paragraph can discuss the "founder" issue. Regards.--MarshalN20 | Talk 19:20, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Alright, taking into account both of your suggestions:
- Problem solved except for the fact that it removes any mention of Islam. ~Amatulić (talk) 19:04, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, both of you are correct. Change "prophet" to either "leader" or "religious leader", and problem solved; right? Regards.--MarshalN20 | Talk 19:01, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- At first look, I think that sentence is pretty good in that it focuses on the biography. Just change "prophet" to "leader" or some similar word. The problem with it is, it removes from the lead any explanation about what makes Muhammad notable. He is notable for bringing Islam to the world, and that really needs to be said up front. ~Amatulić (talk) 18:58, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Alright, I took my best shot at my own solution:
[3][4] I have a tendency to go wrong whenever I approach this article though. Wnt (talk) 19:00, 11 May 2012 (UTC) - N.B. Marshal, you rv'd my comment here by accident.[5]- I disagree with your changes as they are, now, providing a POV issue against the secular perspective. I apologize for the reversion of your original comment. Regards.--MarshalN20 | Talk 19:17, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Huh? I have the secular perspective. Can you explain the problem? Wnt (talk) 19:35, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- I should also mention that there was a different problem I see with this article - while you're using the lead to make the seemingly minor point that he was the "founder" of Islam, you're not using it to say he wrote the Quran. Remember, a lot of people reading this will be completely ignorant about Islam and the whole point of the lead paragraph is to nail down little particulars like that early so they don't get hopelessly confused. ;)
- I see though that my edit is reverted. I'm not going to hang around here and argue over it, but I really do think it was a much better solution than any of the alternatives I saw above. Say that Muhammad wrote the Quran (Muslims believe, under the influence of God) and the Quran is the founding text of Islam. I think Islamics make a big, big point that they are not worshipping Muhammad, but simply following that book, so I think this is the best possible way to address the issue. Wnt (talk) 19:46, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- According to the Quran article, Muhammad did not write the Quran (It was written after he died). I still see the following as a much better option: "Muhammad ... was an Arabian religious leader from Mecca who unified the tribes of Arabia into a single religious polity under Islam." It shows who he is and his importance in history. The "founder" vs. "last prophet" perspectives should also be in the first paragraph, but not in the opening sentence. Regards.--MarshalN20 | Talk 20:28, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- I disagree with your changes as they are, now, providing a POV issue against the secular perspective. I apologize for the reversion of your original comment. Regards.--MarshalN20 | Talk 19:17, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Fairish point - the article says he dictated it: "As it was initially spoken, the Quran was recorded on tablets, bones and the wide, flat ends of date palm fronds." To me, dictating a book is "writing" it, but admittedly that could be misinterpreted. But it's not like it had the hiatus of the Gospels, even if there was a period when the pieces were independently circulated. Wnt (talk) 20:36, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Let me just add that it is a core belief in Islam that Muhammad was illiterate. Cheers, Ankimai (talk) 20:52, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not sure that's generally accepted. DeCausa (talk) 21:21, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Let me just add that it is a core belief in Islam that Muhammad was illiterate. Cheers, Ankimai (talk) 20:52, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Fairish point - the article says he dictated it: "As it was initially spoken, the Quran was recorded on tablets, bones and the wide, flat ends of date palm fronds." To me, dictating a book is "writing" it, but admittedly that could be misinterpreted. But it's not like it had the hiatus of the Gospels, even if there was a period when the pieces were independently circulated. Wnt (talk) 20:36, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
Minor change in expression
Would it be OK for me to change
- "Muhammad's father, Abdullah, died almost six months before he was born"
- to
- "His father, Abdullah, died almost six months before Muhammad was born"?
In the former, I would normally expect the pronoun "he" to point at the preceding noun (father) not its modifier (Muhammad's), and so it reads a little clumsy to me. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 11:27, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- I agree that your modification would remove the grammatical ambiguity, and is a good plan. Qwyrxian (talk) 12:27, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- Done. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 13:29, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- I agree that your modification would remove the grammatical ambiguity, and is a good plan. Qwyrxian (talk) 12:27, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
Copy and paste
I think we could improve on the current paraphrasing of the following:
Our version | Britannica version |
---|---|
Muhammad being a highly influential historical figure, his life, deeds, and thoughts have been debated by followers and opponents over the centuries, which makes a biography of him difficult to write. | Because Muhammad is one of the most influential figures in history, his life, deeds, and thoughts have been debated by followers and opponents over the centuries, which makes a biography of him difficult to write. |
Although usually discounted by historians, oral tradition plays a major role in the Islamic understanding of Muhammad. | Although usually discounted by positivist historians, oral tradition plays a major role in the Islamic understanding of Muhammad, |
Many of the later Western works, from the 18th century onward, distanced themselves from the polemical histories of earlier Christian authors. These more historically oriented treatments, which generally reject the prophethood of Muhammad, are coloured by the Western philosophical and theological framework of their authors. Many of these studies reflect much historical research, and most pay more attention to human, social, economic, and political factors than to religious, theological, and spiritual matters. | Beyond these there are later Western works, many of which, from the 18th century onward, distanced themselves from the polemical histories of earlier Christian authors. These more historically oriented treatments, which generally reject the prophethood of Muhammad, are coloured by the Western philosophical and theological framework of their authors. Many of these studies reflect much historical research, and most pay more attention to human, social, economic, and political factors than to religious, theological, and spiritual matters. |
It was not until the latter part of the 20th century that Western authors combined rigorous scholarship as understood in the modern West with empathy toward the subject at hand and, especially, awareness of the religious and spiritual realities involved in the study of the life of the founder of a major world religion. | It was not until the latter part of the 20th century that Western authors combined rigorous scholarship as understood in the modern West with empathy toward the subject at hand and, especially, awareness of the religious and spiritual realities involved in the study of the life of the founder of a major world religion. |
Before going ahead with the paraphrase, though, do you have any thoughts on whether this content ought to remain? If you argue for retention, could you also suggest a paraphrase please, if you can think of something? --Anthonyhcole (talk) 13:19, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
I think copyvios like this are meant to be removed the instant they're located. I'll go read the policy, and if that's the case, I'll come back and strip them out. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 13:21, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
My reading of WP:COPYVIO and WP:NFC is that they should be removed, so I've done so. Regardless of the legal position, it's just very rude to copy and paste from Britannica into Wikipedia, it's not like we're discussing the Britannica article or anything. Thoughts on whether we need this content and suggested paraphrases would be appreciated. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 14:06, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks to you Anthonyhcole. Hopefully, step by step, we can get this article back up to par. Good work! Veritycheck (talk) 14:58, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
You're welcome. Another one:
Our version | Britannica version |
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Hadith compilations are records of the traditions or sayings of Muhammad. They might be defined as the biography of Muhammad perpetuated by the long memory of his community for their exemplification and obedience. | Hadith, Arabic Ḥadīth (“News” or “Story”), also spelled Hadīt , record of the traditions or sayings of the Prophet Muhammad, revered and received as a major source of religious law and moral guidance, second only to the authority of the Qurʾān, the holy book of Islam. It might be defined as the biography of Muhammad perpetuated by the long memory of his community for their exemplification and obedience. |
I've removed it. This could be a big problem. It's bedtime here so I won't be doing any more tonight. I recommend returning to the version that passed GA, or earlier if that version contained these copyvios. We know about this now, and have an obligation to act promptly. I'd do it myself now but I don't know where to find the date of the GA. Could someone else please do that immediately. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 15:09, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- The number of green words so far counts up to 192, and many sites (such as abstract indexes) make a practice of quoting 300. So technically we don't have a literal copyright violation here. The problem is that these quotes, when not attributed, count as "WP:Plagiarism". We could legitimately quote that much, with " " and appropriate referencing, which of course is not true of an actual copyright violation i.e. longer length. Nonetheless, it's pretty clear that Wikipedia wants to stay far from plagiarism. A reason often given, with which I personally disagree, is to uphold its reputation - I don't think that amateur, sometimes non-academic writers actually need to uphold such a high reputation - however, Wikipedia has a different reason of its own, which is that the content needs to be freely editable and reusable, and there is a risk that if you take an article with 200 unattributed words and add a nice big quote or picture of your own, you start getting into the area where there could be a genuine copyright violation, and there's no way to know that without suppressing the plagiarism. The point of this tldr pedantry of mine is just to point out that we won't need to suppress edit history or do other copyvio-type responses here, and those at fault should be pointed at the plagiarism policy rather than the copyright. Wnt (talk) 19:49, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- OK, I've tracked the "polemical history" part to a series of edits on July 29, 2008. The three other bits from the first table above come from there, but the edit mentioned later is older... looks like it came in March 31, 2008 by the same editor, User:Sa.vakilian, who was a major contributor to the article. [6] On the plus side, all these quotes were sourced directly to EB, and I don't think we even had any rules specifically about plagiarism back then. But if people want to be thorough they might want to check other sources he's cited for direct copying. Wnt (talk) 20:02, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- Good sleuthing on the source. :) But there is no maximum safe word count; I'm afraid that's a common copyright misconception. :/ See, for instance, [7], [8], [9], [10] and even our own article on fair use, which documents a legal case in which copying 300 words from a book was found to be copyright infringement. This is not merely a plagiarism issue; this is an issue under WP:C and WP:NFC, both of which have long required that any content copied verbatim from non-free sources be fully and explicitly marked as quotations. This may have been and very probably was done in all good faith, but I'm afraid that it's still quite probably a copyright problem...especially because we have reason to be concerned about other sources as well. See [11], for one more example:
Our version | Source version | Source |
---|---|---|
Ali himself was firmly convinced of his legitimacy for caliphate based on his close kinship with Muhammad, his intimate association and his knowledge of Islam and his merits in serving its cause. He told Abu Bakr that his delay in pledging allegiance (bay'ah) as caliph was based on his belief of his own prior title. He had not changed his mind when he finally gave his pledge to Abu Bakr and then to Umar and to Uthman but had done so for the sake of the unity of Islam, at at time when it was clear that the Muslims had turned away from him. | Yet Ali himself was firmly convinced of the legitimacy of his own claim based on his close kinship with the Prophet, his intimate association with, and knowledge of, Islam from the outset and his merits in serving its cause.... He had told Abu Bakr that his delay in pledging allegiance to him as successor to Muhammad was based on his belief in his own prior title. He had not changed his mind when he finally gave his pledge to Abu Bakr and then to Umar and to Uthman. He had done so for the sake of the unity of Islam when it was clear that the Muslims had turned away from him, the rightful successor of Muhammad. | Madelung p. 141 |
- We see this kind of thing from time to time - where in all good faith a contributor copies or very closely paraphrases from non-free sources without realizing that this is permitted only in direct quotation. Looking at the contributor's list of edits to this article, I wonder if the best thing to do here isn't to proactively replace or remove specific contributions by him, unless they can be checked and (where necessary) turned into quotations as appropriate:
- (Not all of these edits will be problematic; this should be a list of content + edits that were not reverted or minor.) I don't have any particular insight into Muhammad, but do the regular editors of this article think this is something that they could undertake? --Moonriddengirl (talk) 23:33, 12 May 2012 (UTC)