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:::That analogy in comparing Joseph Smith's efforts and legacy is a decent one. Joseph Smith quoted the Bible and then introduced himself and a supposed 'revelation' and developed yet another religion, albeit one including major overtones of Christianity. Muhammad could be summarized as having done the same thing, only with Jewish and Christian overtones including Arabi-centric overtones of legend and folklore. No such thing as beheadings and cutting off of fingertips existed as a religious prescription in Judaism nor Christianity, so that is one of many details 'founded' and introduced by Muhammad. Since Muhammad is argued from an Islamic point of view as the 'perfect man' theologically, then he is surely the central figure of Islam and its model. -- [[User:HafizHanif|HafizHanif]] ([[User talk:HafizHanif|talk]]) 20:25, 27 November 2018 (UTC) |
:::That analogy in comparing Joseph Smith's efforts and legacy is a decent one. Joseph Smith quoted the Bible and then introduced himself and a supposed 'revelation' and developed yet another religion, albeit one including major overtones of Christianity. Muhammad could be summarized as having done the same thing, only with Jewish and Christian overtones including Arabi-centric overtones of legend and folklore. No such thing as beheadings and cutting off of fingertips existed as a religious prescription in Judaism nor Christianity, so that is one of many details 'founded' and introduced by Muhammad. Since Muhammad is argued from an Islamic point of view as the 'perfect man' theologically, then he is surely the central figure of Islam and its model. -- [[User:HafizHanif|HafizHanif]] ([[User talk:HafizHanif|talk]]) 20:25, 27 November 2018 (UTC) |
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::::{{Ping|HafizHanif}} "beheadings and cutting off of fingertips" is not a part of Islam nor our discussion. Please refrain from using original research to justify the use of the term "founder" in the short description ([[WP:OR]] and [[WP:SYNTH]]). – <span style="color: purple">[[User:Batreeq|Batreeq]]</span> <sup> ([[User talk:Batreeq|<span style="color: green;">Talk</span>]]) <span style="color: orange;">([[Special:Contributions/Batreeq|Contribs]])</span></sup> 00:02, 28 November 2018 (UTC) |
::::{{Ping|HafizHanif}} "beheadings and cutting off of fingertips" is not a part of Islam nor our discussion. Please refrain from using original research to justify the use of the term "founder" in the short description ([[WP:OR]] and [[WP:SYNTH]]). – <span style="color: purple">[[User:Batreeq|Batreeq]]</span> <sup> ([[User talk:Batreeq|<span style="color: green;">Talk</span>]]) <span style="color: orange;">([[Special:Contributions/Batreeq|Contribs]])</span></sup> 00:02, 28 November 2018 (UTC) |
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::::{{RPA }} by [[User:HafizHanif|HafizHanif]] ([[User talk:HafizHanif|talk]]) 21:06, 29 November 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::My friend {{ping|Batreeq}} perhaps not all who respond to this (or other Islamic articles) are adequately qualified, or at least partially learned, in the fundamentals of the religion of Muhammad. Smiting of necks from primary source, at [https://quranx.com/47.4 Muhammad (47) 4], and necks and fingertips at [https://quranx.com/8.12 al-Anfal (8) 12]. |
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:::::Secondary source (Hadith) citing the primary source (Muhammad's poetry - the Quran), I'll quote in-full (worth reading): |
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:::::''(so strike them over the necks, and smite over all their fingers and toes.) strike them on their foreheads to tear them apart and over the necks to cut them off, and cut off their limbs, hands and feet. It was said that, (over the necks) refers to striking the forehead, or the neck, according to Ad-dahhak and `atiyyah al-`awfi. In support of the latter, Allah commanded the believers, (so, when you meet (in fight jihad in Allah's cause) those who disbelieve, smite (their) necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, take them as captives).) 47:4 Ar-rabi` bin Anas said, "in the aftermath of Badr, the people used to recognize whomever the angels killed from those whom they killed, by the wounds over their necks, fingers and toes, because those parts had a mark as if they were branded by fire.'' (source: [https://quranx.com/tafsirs/8.12 Kathir - Ibn Al Kathir]). |
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:::::For tertiary sources (modern scholars who look at the primaries, secondaries, and historical accounts including centric and more objective, we find an entire wiki article already existing: [[Beheading in Islam]]. See sources regarding how far back beheadings go... and realize they are still done under the guise of following the prescription found in Muhammad's poetry. Should I also find the points of fingertips for you as well? |
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:::::So if it is ignorance on your part, that is fine. Some who edit wikipedia do so to share facts, not embellish legends or make inconsiderate apologies for such barbarity argued as peace, justice, and so forth. If it is you who is the apologist, then you stand corrected by centuries of Islamic practice. Go in peace. -- [[User:HafizHanif|HafizHanif]] ([[User talk:HafizHanif|talk]]) 21:06, 29 November 2018 (UTC) |
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{{od}} |
{{od}} |
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{{ping|HafizHanif}} Shame on you for decontextualizing the Quran and promoting your extremist beliefs. You know well what the verse means, even without scholarly explanations. |
{{ping|HafizHanif}} Shame on you for decontextualizing the Quran and promoting your extremist beliefs. You know well what the verse means, even without scholarly explanations. |
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:Your responses exemplify an inability to look past a religious pandering to ignorance. Now arguing divine intervention of angels for the evidence of beheadings and fingers nipping is the very point of this discussion! You lost. Religious ideology has clouded your objectivity. To call me extreme while apologizing for historical atrocities is, in itself, extreme. To then share contradictory Hadith that, according to you, justifies beheading and finger snipping atrocities is ridiculous and desperate. To call my effort in identifying the facts as 'phobic' only reveals your ignorance of historical facts written by Muslims. No objectivity. No understanding outside of religious dogma. My friend, this discussion is over. -- [[User:HafizHanif|HafizHanif]] ([[User talk:HafizHanif|talk]]) 02:22, 30 November 2018 (UTC) |
:Your responses exemplify an inability to look past a religious pandering to ignorance. Now arguing divine intervention of angels for the evidence of beheadings and fingers nipping is the very point of this discussion! You lost. Religious ideology has clouded your objectivity. To call me extreme while apologizing for historical atrocities is, in itself, extreme. To then share contradictory Hadith that, according to you, justifies beheading and finger snipping atrocities is ridiculous and desperate. To call my effort in identifying the facts as 'phobic' only reveals your ignorance of historical facts written by Muslims. No objectivity. No understanding outside of religious dogma. My friend, this discussion is over. -- [[User:HafizHanif|HafizHanif]] ([[User talk:HafizHanif|talk]]) 02:22, 30 November 2018 (UTC) |
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::All, I would recommend that we all remain civil and assume good faith with each other. Religion is obviously a charged topic, so we have to be careful we don't lose sight of the fact that we are here to improve WP. Everyone is fine, but let's not let this get out of hand because we are all experienced and constructive editors - we can't let this spiral out into a religious and geopolitical debate, because this is not the place for that. Sorry if I sound preachy, I just want us to keep our goals in sight. Best [[User:El cid, el campeador|<span style="color:black">'''‡ Єl Cid of ᐺalencia'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:el cid, el campeador|<span style="color:teal">ᐐT₳LKᐬ</span>]]</sup> 13:45, 30 November 2018 (UTC) |
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::{{ping|HafizHanif}} You knowingly posted a [[WP:PERSONAL|personal attack]] and off-topic information (that was not even a command to Muslims, whether or not you believe in angels). I advise you to say off topic and refrain from posting information that does not directly relate to the discussion of the edits at hand. – <span style="color: purple">[[User:Batreeq|Batreeq]]</span> <sup> ([[User talk:Batreeq|<span style="color: green;">Talk</span>]]) <span style="color: orange;">([[Special:Contributions/Batreeq|Contribs]])</span></sup> 02:08, 1 December 2018 (UTC) |
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== Wikipedia must ad PBUH OR SAWW == |
== Wikipedia must ad PBUH OR SAWW == |
Revision as of 02:08, 1 December 2018
Muhammad has been listed as one of the Philosophy and religion good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Error: The code letter muh-im
for the topic area in this contentious topics talk notice is not recognised or declared. Please check the documentation.
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This page has archives. Sections older than 60 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III. |
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 August 2018
Hi There, i am a Muslim and i need a permission to edit this page. I Just want to add This bracket (P.B.U.H) right after the name MUHAMMAD like Hazrat Muhammad (P.B.U.H). The 2 Words Hazrat and (P.B.U.H) Are used for Respect..
This is the proper way to express our feelings or any other Muslim Feelings towards our Beloved Prophet Hazrat Muhammad (P.B.U.H) Sulmanrasheed0900 (talk) 11:20, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
- For cases like this, Wikipedia avoids such honorifics. Eik Corell (talk) 12:47, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
- That's right. See WP:PBUH, and don't attempt to do this for the Muhammad's name in this or any other article. ~Anachronist (talk) 13:55, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
Agreed.i just also raised this issue and then read this discussion. Same matter is raised here also by fellow Muslim brother. Hawbdutt (talk) 22:32, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
- @Hawbdutt: Please see FAQ #5 at the top of the page. This has been discussed before, extensively, and consensus is to stick to the neutral/secular perspective and omit the honorifics. —C.Fred (talk) 22:35, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
PBUH, SAW
The article doesn’t spell out what PBUH is. And there’s an "saww" in the references; is that the same as SAW? MBG02 (talk) 17:21, 25 October 2018 (UTC)
- I just read Talk (August) and WP:PBUH. Tricky. Maybe the link can go in the article? MBG02 (talk) 17:27, 25 October 2018 (UTC)
- MBG02, I did this [1] change, how's that? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:27, 25 October 2018 (UTC)
- About "saww", yeah, that would be my guess, the variant is mentioned in Peace be upon him. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:44, 25 October 2018 (UTC)
- That would be nice. The first time I saw PBUH it left me wondering why anyone would write the sound of spitting after a name. Seemed very offensive to me. --Khajidha (talk) 01:07, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
- The current article does spell out PBUH, at the end of Muhammad#Muslim_tradition. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:36, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
PBUH is peace be upon him, and SAW is Sallahu Alaihi Wasallam which means may peace and blessings of Allah subhana wa ta'ala be upon him. These are compulsory for a muslim to say after he spells the name of any messenger of Alllah, and especially for the Prophet Muhammad PBUH. Anyone who knowingly skips it is cursed by Allah SWT! Lion9730 (talk) 12:04, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
- That's a lot of cursed people. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:24, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
Short Description: Founder vs. Promulgator
@Ullierlich and FyzixFighter: It is incorrect for the {{short description}} tag to contain "prophet and founder of Islam".
Argument 1: "Muhammad was the founder of Islam, Zoroaster was the founder of Zoroastrianism, Mani was the founder of Manichaeism, Gautama was the founder of Buddhism, Bahaullah was the founder of Baha'i Faith, Joseph Smith was the founder of Mormonism." This is incorrect because:
- This is a violation of WP:SYNTH.
- This is a violation of WP:V.
- The uncited founders of other religions are irrelvenant.
- Muslims do not believe that Muhammad founded Islam, because there were many prophets and messengers before him: Prophets and messengers in Islam.
Argument 2: "take this to the talk page - even Britannica ([https://www.britannica.com/biography/Muhammad]) calls him the "founder" of Islam - this is the pattern, as previously noted, for other religions" Britannica is incorrect. Errors have been documented in it.[1][2] I've submitted a correction regarding that. https://www.britannica.com/topic/Islam correctly states that he promulgated Islam (as opposed to "founding it"). Secondly, the exucse of a "pattern" is fallacious and violates policies as previously explained.
WP:NPOV requires that this be approached from a netural point of view. To satisfy this, the "short" description could either be:
- "Founder of Islam according to non-Muslims, promulgator and final prophet of Islam according to Muslims"
- "Prophet and Promulgator of Islam"
The first one's not so short, right? But it abides by WP:NPOV. Alternatively, we can use the second and more inclusive term that too abides by WP:NPOV. – Batreeq (Talk) (Contribs) 23:50, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
References
- The talk page archive includes numerous discussions on this and, from my reading of those discussions, it appears that the consensus has been, and continues to be, that "founder" is a neutral secular term. When the majority of secular, academic sources say "founder" then we are not violating WP:V or WP:SYNTH (which is really just a special case of WP:V). The argument about other founders is also relevant. IMO, the pattern followed with Joseph Smith and the Latter Day Saint movement is especially relevant. Latter Day Saints also believe that their theology predates Joseph Smith and was practiced by Adam down to Moses and Jesus and his apostles. However, since secular academic sources call him the "founder" that's what we use on Wikipedia and not the preferred LDS term "restorer". Why should this argument work for Muhammad and Islam but not Joseph Smith and Mormonism? Also, per MOS:HONOR and MOS:ISLAMHON, even if we did go to your proposal, we would not capitalize prophet or promulgator. I don't really see anything new here that hasn't been discussed over and over already on the talk page, as seen in the archives. Without an established new consensus, I don't see any reason to change the status quo. --FyzixFighter (talk) 12:51, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
- @FyzixFighter: Secular does not equal unbiased. Christianity is an entirely different religion. There are many more Christian denominations as opposed to that of Islam. Additionally, you are comparing denominations (which are founded long after the uprising of a religion) to a religion, Islam. Moreover, your unproven claim of consensus violates the principles outlined in WP:DISCUSSED and does not relate to the short description, which was recently changed (the matter of discussion). The capitalization is not the subject of debate here, though Prophet is capitalized if speaking about a specific individual because it is a proper noun and beginning of the title/short description. MOS:HONOR and MOS:ISLAMHON relate to honorifics, not the use of the term "promulgator". Nonetheless, WP:ISLAMHON reads: "The Prophet or (The) Holy Prophet (including with a lowercase 'h') in place of, or preceding, "Muhammad"; or just Prophet preceding "Muhammad"". We could go with the first or second short description I initially suggested above. – Batreeq (Talk) (Contribs) 23:52, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
- Comment The problem is that Batreeq misunderstands WP:NPOV. It is explicitly not about always finding a middle way. It explicitly is about representing scholarly consensus. Whether believers of a religion (any religion, nothing to do with Islam) believes something or not, that's actually rather irrelevant for Wikipedia, so the argument that 'Britannica is wrong because Muslims believe otherwise' gets things completely the wrong way around. Academic and scholarly sources are relevant. Religious tenets are not. That is what WP:NPOV says. Jeppiz (talk) 19:39, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
- Please quote from Wikipedia's policy pages, including to support "It is explicitly not about always finding a middle way." Additionally, there are Muslim scholars. – Batreeq (Talk) (Contribs) 23:52, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
- Saying "Muhammad was the promulgator, not the founder of Islam, Adam the first man was the first Muslim" is a religious belief. This is not a religious website. That would be as if we were to describe Jesus as the only begotten son of God, Yahweh as the One True God, or Vishnu as Supreme Being. This is a secular resource and Muhammad is obviously the founder of Islam according to secular sources. If that offends some religious sensibilities that is no reason to convert WP from a secular resource to a faith based one.Smeat75 (talk) 01:19, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
- Sigh. Not again.
- Saying "Muhammad was the promulgator, not the founder of Islam, Adam the first man was the first Muslim" is a religious belief. This is not a religious website. That would be as if we were to describe Jesus as the only begotten son of God, Yahweh as the One True God, or Vishnu as Supreme Being. This is a secular resource and Muhammad is obviously the founder of Islam according to secular sources. If that offends some religious sensibilities that is no reason to convert WP from a secular resource to a faith based one.Smeat75 (talk) 01:19, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
- Please quote from Wikipedia's policy pages, including to support "It is explicitly not about always finding a middle way." Additionally, there are Muslim scholars. – Batreeq (Talk) (Contribs) 23:52, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
- I have always held the position that we should say Muhammad introduced Islam to the world. That's a basic statement of fact that nobody would disagree with. But that recommendation has consistently fallen on deaf ears. Otherwise, if scholarly sources use "founder" then that's what we would use also. "Promulgator" means "proclaimer" or "teacher", which doesn't really capture Muhammad's role as the one who introduced Islam to the world. ~Anachronist (talk) 03:52, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
- I completely understand where you guys are coming from, but the short description should be modified then. For example, "Founder (secular POV) and Prophet of Islam". Promulgator is an additional option as well. Or:
- "Founder of Islam according to non-Muslims, promulgator and final prophet of Islam according to Muslims"
- "Prophet and promulgator of Islam"
- – Batreeq (Talk) (Contribs) 22:56, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
- I completely understand where you guys are coming from, but the short description should be modified then. For example, "Founder (secular POV) and Prophet of Islam". Promulgator is an additional option as well. Or:
- I have always held the position that we should say Muhammad introduced Islam to the world. That's a basic statement of fact that nobody would disagree with. But that recommendation has consistently fallen on deaf ears. Otherwise, if scholarly sources use "founder" then that's what we would use also. "Promulgator" means "proclaimer" or "teacher", which doesn't really capture Muhammad's role as the one who introduced Islam to the world. ~Anachronist (talk) 03:52, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
- To add my two cents (worth a penny or more perhaps ;), I would mention the use of Presentism (literary and historical analysis) on how the religion and ideology of Islam reinterprets the past. This is typical of all people, not only Muslims or those beholden to an Arabic hierarchy as Islam promotes. To suspect that Abraham, for example, was a 'Muslim' is to paint the past according to what Muhammad was talking about. It is less about being 'wrong' in labeling Abraham as one who 'submits to God' and 'keeps his peace' (loosely what 'Islam' or 'Aslam' would mean). Notice how in Christian vernacular, there is no aim or motive to label Abraham as a 'Christian'. Why? Because it is unnecessary. There is no motive to paint the past in such a manner, since that would be leaning on the fallacy of presentism. Thus, it is proper to define things objectively and without religious zealotry or motive, to identify Muhammad as the author of Islam and promoter of such ideas. -- HafizHanif (talk) 00:52, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks for your input. I've reset the template to how it was before the dispute of the controversial edits. That concept could also be applied to the modern incorrect statement that Muhammad founded the religion. Can you clarify explicitly what you mean and how it relates to the founder vs. promulgator dispute? – Batreeq (Talk) (Contribs) 00:37, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
- To add my two cents (worth a penny or more perhaps ;), I would mention the use of Presentism (literary and historical analysis) on how the religion and ideology of Islam reinterprets the past. This is typical of all people, not only Muslims or those beholden to an Arabic hierarchy as Islam promotes. To suspect that Abraham, for example, was a 'Muslim' is to paint the past according to what Muhammad was talking about. It is less about being 'wrong' in labeling Abraham as one who 'submits to God' and 'keeps his peace' (loosely what 'Islam' or 'Aslam' would mean). Notice how in Christian vernacular, there is no aim or motive to label Abraham as a 'Christian'. Why? Because it is unnecessary. There is no motive to paint the past in such a manner, since that would be leaning on the fallacy of presentism. Thus, it is proper to define things objectively and without religious zealotry or motive, to identify Muhammad as the author of Islam and promoter of such ideas. -- HafizHanif (talk) 00:52, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
- Sure! According to the definitions of those words, Muhammad both 'founded' Islam (did not exist before he started reciting religious poetry) and also was its promulgator (promoted and spread it). Since wiki is supposed to be an encyclopedia, it is proper to describe subjects / topics from all points of view. Thus, it is correct to clarify that Muhammad believed himself to be a prophet of God (founder), but not everyone was, nor is, convinced. This is why choice words are very important. The issue is, and consideration needs to be adhered to, the religious who have been weened with religious vernacular. To talk about this man without the honorifics, or without the title of 'prophet' is like blasphemy to their minds. It is a great leap of faith / logic for such to describe things beyond those constricting bounds, unfortunately. What seems 'controversial' is a matter of objectivity, and some religious minds sadly have difficulty looking past their strictures. This goes for all subjects / topics religiously followed, even science, atheism, or wrastling ;) -- HafizHanif (talk) 01:24, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
Founder, obviously. To suppose that he is not the founder is an explicitly religious belief, and Wikipedia no more should do that than it should claim that Thor causes the lightning. I can't help but notice a preponderance of editors in favour of "founder". Pinkbeast (talk) 09:28, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
- I agree with Pinkbeast that there seems to be a rather clear c consensus, and have re-established that version. It is perfectly factual and neutral. As numerous editors have said, we are not concerned with religious POVs here (and that of course applies to any religion). For example, we do not state that Jesus was the Son of God at Jesus either, nor should we. Jeppiz (talk) 16:25, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
- "As numerous editors have said, we are not concerned with religious POVs here (and that of course applies to any religion)..." That's incorrect. If that was true, then Wikipedia would not describe any religious info, which is undoubtedly not the case. The Jesus article refers to him as a "son of God" and this is easily provable with a Find Command. If you insist, we shall put "Founder (secular POV) and Prophet of Islam" or "Founder of Islam according to non-Muslims, promulgator and final prophet of Islam according to Muslims".
- Also, can somebody tell me why he is not considered the promulgator of Islam?[1] – Batreeq (Talk) (Contribs) 20:52, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
- "As numerous editors have said, we are not concerned with religious POVs here (and that of course applies to any religion)..." That's incorrect. If that was true, then Wikipedia would not describe any religious info, which is undoubtedly not the case. The Jesus article refers to him as a "son of God" and this is easily provable with a Find Command. If you insist, we shall put "Founder (secular POV) and Prophet of Islam" or "Founder of Islam according to non-Muslims, promulgator and final prophet of Islam according to Muslims".
- I agree with Pinkbeast that there seems to be a rather clear c consensus, and have re-established that version. It is perfectly factual and neutral. As numerous editors have said, we are not concerned with religious POVs here (and that of course applies to any religion). For example, we do not state that Jesus was the Son of God at Jesus either, nor should we. Jeppiz (talk) 16:25, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
References
- And this article refers to Muhammad as the "final prophet of Islam". By the way, the short description of the Jesus article is "central figure of Christianity". I'd hesitate to call Muhammad the central figure of Islam in the same manner, but you'll notice that the objective of the short description is to be very short. —C.Fred (talk) 20:59, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
- The Jesus article, in its introductory paragraph, reads "Most Christians believe he is the incarnation of God the Son and the awaited Messiah (Christ) prophesied in the Old Testament." Key word is "believe". The rest of the article cites where that belief is noted. Thus where it reads "Son of God", notice it is citing the sources. The article is not arguing nor claiming such, otherwise it would be POV and other such wiki trespasses. This is the same where in the introduction to Muhammad, it mentions "belief" and then the rest of the article uses terms from the centric Islamic perspective (example: prophet of Islam, etc.). -- HafizHanif (talk) 22:33, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
- Hi there!! As I was going through the above discussion, i felt like adding just one point to it. Ask the "scholarly sources" who call Prophet Muhammad the founder of Islam whether the name of Prophet Muhammad's father was Abdullah (Meaning: servant of Allah) or not. Prophet's Father - Abdullah (Abdallah ibn Abd al-Muttalib). I know the "Scholarly sources" won't take into consideration religious references so I ask them to put forth the references (that they believe to be true) to disprove my point. MME Baig (talk) 07:14, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
- That's an interesting question, but not in the scope of this talkpage (Allah#Usage may be relevant, other deities may have been involved, etc). You could try Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:55, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
- Agreed with Sång...but to respond and hopefully clarify: Realize ancient pre-Islamic Arabia had very little written accounts. Most things written in the pre-Islamic era are extant items from either a Christian-Arab or Jewish societal source, and some poetry Arab-centric. Arabs (whether pagan, polytheistic, or some other religious stance) were by and large illiterates. There was no such thing as a written history or method of record keeping. Their only 'history' were narratives in oral traditions, usually in poetic sing-song rhyme - similar to Muhammad's poetry (the Quran), going back a few generations in promoting their particular tribal and familial bonds. This manner of recalling stories of the past or praising particular tribes and their exploits was very common to ancient Arabic culture, even the claims of notable family and tribal names (mentioning names like Abraham as a claim to some nobility or high position over others). The oral traditions that were written down several centuries after the fact / fictions / legends of any given Arabic / Muslim narrative is what scholars have to work with, but nothing more ancient than Muhammad's claims or those expounded by his adherents is available or verifiable. Thus why it is difficult to derive anything according to historical methodology from either pre-Islamic writings or other sources of that time regarding Muhammad's claims, short of what is found in biblical or other pre-Islamic sources speaking on Arabia, the Levant, etc.. -- HafizHanif (talk) 08:29, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
- I feel like we are going off topic here, but Rahmanism and this video are a few proofs. Back on topic: C.Fred, ultimately, short is relative. I suggested those options because they are both inclusive. Alternately, "promulgator" is still an accurate option (and my last question remains unanswered). – Batreeq (Talk) (Contribs) 20:25, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
- From the documentation for {{short description}}: "Keep it short and simple. Avoid specialist terminology. As much detail as is necessary should be provided, no more - avoid listing examples. It will be displayed on mobile view along with other possible hits, and must be intelligible to the lay reader."[emphasis added] That last bit is key: a reader without specialized knowledge should be able to make sense of what the article is about. While "founder" may not be the most precise, it is the clearest to the blank-slate reader who is trying to figure out who the article is about. "Promulgator" is an uncommon word and doesn't provide clarity. "Prophet" isn't specific enough, "last prophet" doesn't make clear his special standing. If we could find a better word than "promulgator", I'd be okay with a "prophet and..." construction. —C.Fred (talk) 20:59, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
- I feel like we are going off topic here, but Rahmanism and this video are a few proofs. Back on topic: C.Fred, ultimately, short is relative. I suggested those options because they are both inclusive. Alternately, "promulgator" is still an accurate option (and my last question remains unanswered). – Batreeq (Talk) (Contribs) 20:25, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
- Agreed with Sång...but to respond and hopefully clarify: Realize ancient pre-Islamic Arabia had very little written accounts. Most things written in the pre-Islamic era are extant items from either a Christian-Arab or Jewish societal source, and some poetry Arab-centric. Arabs (whether pagan, polytheistic, or some other religious stance) were by and large illiterates. There was no such thing as a written history or method of record keeping. Their only 'history' were narratives in oral traditions, usually in poetic sing-song rhyme - similar to Muhammad's poetry (the Quran), going back a few generations in promoting their particular tribal and familial bonds. This manner of recalling stories of the past or praising particular tribes and their exploits was very common to ancient Arabic culture, even the claims of notable family and tribal names (mentioning names like Abraham as a claim to some nobility or high position over others). The oral traditions that were written down several centuries after the fact / fictions / legends of any given Arabic / Muslim narrative is what scholars have to work with, but nothing more ancient than Muhammad's claims or those expounded by his adherents is available or verifiable. Thus why it is difficult to derive anything according to historical methodology from either pre-Islamic writings or other sources of that time regarding Muhammad's claims, short of what is found in biblical or other pre-Islamic sources speaking on Arabia, the Levant, etc.. -- HafizHanif (talk) 08:29, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
Batreeq, the problem is that you still seem to believe we should call facts "secular POV" and that we should have some kind of balance to include what Muslims believe. We should not. This is not a Muslim encyclopaedia any more than it's an encyclopaedia of any religion. Of course we should note that Muslims believe Muhammad was the last prophet, but that's a religious view and not something which we will, should or even could (according to the rules) place on equal footing with facts. Most Muslims believe Muhammad was the last prophet. Most non-Muslims believe either that he was mad, sick, or an imposter. I mean no insult by this, the same goes for all religious figures. Most Christians believe Jesus was the God, most Jews believe he was mad, sick, or an imposter. Again, same goes for every religious founder. If a man claims to talk to God, he is either right or wrong. Those who believe he is right will follow him, those who believe he is wrong will believe he is either mad or lying. Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, Buddha, Ad-Darazi, Joseph Smith... the list is long. Saying that Muhammad was the founder of Islam is factual. Saying Muslims consider him the last prophet is like saying Christians, or Jews, or Buddhists, or Hindus consider him an imposter. It's a religious POV. I take it we both agree not to put it in the lead that many consider him an imposter. If we can agree on excluding that religious POV, it should be equally obvious to exclude other POV. If you are to edit Wikipedia, you need to understand that any religious POV is rather irrelevant. Articles about religions do tell about those religions, their believers and beliefs, but do not adhere to them. Jeppiz (talk) 21:09, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
- Jeppiz (and all others reading along), lots of people have a difficult time understanding neutral 'objectivity' when all they know are religious claims taught to them as 'facts' (one-sided narratives). It is a blinding prism for some raised to understand the world through legends long believed as truth. When historical research begins to extrapolate, or reveal, what is closer to fact, or critical thinking is encouraged, the mind not accustomed to critical thinking has difficulty adjusting. When unequivocal facts are read, the mind resounds and can shake violently. And when a teaching exists that anyone 'not believing' the religious claims are enemies, such resistance to religious claims is understood as them being haters of God or of one's beloved man-leader (the so-called 'prophet' in question), that their minds usually revert to defense mode, instead of think mode. But love wins out every time. -- HafizHanif (talk) 22:53, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
- Muhammad as a prophet - non as founder per se - see concepts of fitra and other Islamic scholarship upon nature of Islam as having a wider scope than circa second millennialist academic tensions.
- https://www.khaleejtimes.com/editorials-columns/muhammad-is-allah-s-last-messenger-not-the-founder-of-islam Text mdnp (talk) 01:11, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
- Muhammad is the founder of Islam because Islam was not known before him. -- Doctorx0079 (talk) 01:19, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
- The news article that Text mdnp linked supports my claim of not including incorrect secular information or specifying secular info. @Doctorx0079: Not true, see Prophets and messengers in Islam. We are not arguing the validity of Islam here. @Pinkbeast: Evasion (ethics). My previous question remains unanswered. – Batreeq (Talk) (Contribs) 00:10, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
- I AM NOT ARGUING THE VALIDITY OF ISLAM. SHOW ME WHERE I SAID ISLAM IS VALID OR INVALID. -- Doctorx0079 (talk) 00:14, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
- For what it's worth I agree with the consensus that "founder" is a neutral secular term. Batreeq has so far utterly failed to convince me otherwise. -- Doctorx0079 (talk) 00:16, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
- The news article that Text mdnp linked is no use whatsoever. "Anyone who reads a biography of Muhammad’s (pbuh) life can see that his prophethood was crystal clear from the time when he was in his mother’s womb" - this is not a neutral source (and the whole thing is like that). I'm not sure what question I'm supposedly evading, unless it's "Could you please link to the policy that states religious POV's are excluded?", in which case I think it is rather up to you to find the policy that says that - leaving aside the figleaf of "religious POVs" - a vast morass of mutually contradictory sources making unverifiable claims are suddenly to be taken as valid. Pinkbeast (talk) 01:35, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
- Muhammad is the founder of Islam because Islam was not known before him. -- Doctorx0079 (talk) 01:19, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
- Hopefully not too far off topic (my apologies when I do digress), but I noticed recently this interesting detail: BBC News cites or labels Muhammad as "Prophet Muhammad" in their news articles. See this one about suicide martyrs (oxymoron) and this one about the first woman judge defending polyamorous relationship (which is a psychologically interesting read). I wonder: has the UK, or British whomever, become an Islamic State? Or do they label him as such to placate people's sensitivities (as we keep reading in this talk page)? Or is it something else? Anyone? Bueller? -- HafizHanif (talk) 18:13, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
- Same thing (labeling Muhammad as a "Prophet") with this MSN news article talking about schoolbooks indoctrinating hate and indifference inspired from Muhammad's poetry and the legends about him (Hadith, et al). I suspect there is a fear factor behind the use of the title, "prophet" capitalized, likely to subdue the typical emotional lashing out when anything less than expected is written. Notice the current talk page sections in here... It's a shame that even these news cites lost their journalistic integrity and objectivity. -- HafizHanif (talk) 18:28, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
- Besides being vague rubbish with the usual paranoia about Muslims - Saint Paul is only Saint Paul because Christianity says he's a saint, but you don't seem to be shedding any tears over the way that secular sources commonly refer to him as "Saint Paul" - this seems to have very limited relevance to the topic. Pinkbeast (talk) 19:39, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
- Same thing (labeling Muhammad as a "Prophet") with this MSN news article talking about schoolbooks indoctrinating hate and indifference inspired from Muhammad's poetry and the legends about him (Hadith, et al). I suspect there is a fear factor behind the use of the title, "prophet" capitalized, likely to subdue the typical emotional lashing out when anything less than expected is written. Notice the current talk page sections in here... It's a shame that even these news cites lost their journalistic integrity and objectivity. -- HafizHanif (talk) 18:28, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
- Rubbish and vague, I must confess. However, poignant and precise it surely is. Let us stay on topic (alongside our digressions). What I mention is important regarding public acknowledgment derived from mainstream opinion. My opinion: it is irresponsible and fear-based. Thus we notify public opinion submitting to religious claims, and it is shameful... since it is vacant of Truth. -- HafizHanif (talk) 22:27, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
- @Pinkbeast: WP:BIASEDSOURCES allows these types of sources. Now, the Burden of proof (philosophy) lies on you. – Batreeq (Talk) (Contribs) 03:14, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
- Rubbish and vague, I must confess. However, poignant and precise it surely is. Let us stay on topic (alongside our digressions). What I mention is important regarding public acknowledgment derived from mainstream opinion. My opinion: it is irresponsible and fear-based. Thus we notify public opinion submitting to religious claims, and it is shameful... since it is vacant of Truth. -- HafizHanif (talk) 22:27, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
- Let's look at the same 'news' sources I previously cited regarding Paul. Here is one article mentioning Paul. Notice how Paul is described by the news writer, and described when quoting what others say about Paul. Is this the case when Muhammad is referenced or written about by a news writer in BBC? Is this paranoia or the fact? Another from the BBC, notice the mention of Jesus and how Jesus is mentioned as 'founder' and without other labels / titles / honorifics. No one is up in arms about it. That article about Jesus should refute the contentions about Muhammad and honorary motifs, and showcase how Muhammad is the founder of that ideology. But a 'prophet' and titled in mainstream news sources? Again, very unprofessional regarding journalism or objectivity. But some of us know exactly why this duplicity is allowed. The violence that often accompanies disturbed religious emotions goes without saying... so a poetic dreamer may be honored, praised, and worshipped as a 'prophet'. -- HafizHanif (talk) 19:43, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
- The point is proven. Lack of subjectivity from news sources does 'not' justify wiki's lack of objectivity. The example of the Jesus link shows him as 'founder' and doesn't give honorific titles. To do any different with another historical character would be revealing bias (and ignorance, among other things). So, two sections in this talk page have been answered. -- HafizHanif (talk) 21:16, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
- @HafizHanif:: WP:OR: "Wikipedia does not publish original thought. All material in Wikipedia must be attributable to a reliable, published source. Articles may not contain any new analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to reach or imply a conclusion not clearly stated by the sources themselves." WP:SYNTH: "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources..." – Batreeq (Talk) (Contribs) 23:56, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
- According to published sources, Muhammad is the founder of Islam. -- Doctorx0079 (talk) 02:07, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
- @HafizHanif:: WP:OR: "Wikipedia does not publish original thought. All material in Wikipedia must be attributable to a reliable, published source. Articles may not contain any new analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to reach or imply a conclusion not clearly stated by the sources themselves." WP:SYNTH: "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources..." – Batreeq (Talk) (Contribs) 23:56, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
- The point is proven. Lack of subjectivity from news sources does 'not' justify wiki's lack of objectivity. The example of the Jesus link shows him as 'founder' and doesn't give honorific titles. To do any different with another historical character would be revealing bias (and ignorance, among other things). So, two sections in this talk page have been answered. -- HafizHanif (talk) 21:16, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
- @Batreeq:, I agree.. no 'original thought' is allowed when it comes to these Islamic articles, but only the repeating of lemmings (sarcasm). To echo the rational mind of Doctorx0079: According to published sources, Muhammad is NOT to be honored in fact-based information sources (which Wiki is supposed to be), but mentioned by name alone. The contention has been refuted. -- HafizHanif (talk) 19:27, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
- @HafizHanif: Inconclusive, and what do you mean "honored"? – Batreeq (Talk) (Contribs) 22:55, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
- @Batreeq:, I agree.. no 'original thought' is allowed when it comes to these Islamic articles, but only the repeating of lemmings (sarcasm). To echo the rational mind of Doctorx0079: According to published sources, Muhammad is NOT to be honored in fact-based information sources (which Wiki is supposed to be), but mentioned by name alone. The contention has been refuted. -- HafizHanif (talk) 19:27, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
- ":@Batreeq: Subjectivity interprets something as inconclusive, while objectivity clarifies what seems inconclusive. Look to the former. Religious pandering beckons the use of honorifics, but such is not objective. The religious argument that Islam 'is' the ancient religion of mankind is an Islamic claim. The very use of the term 'Islam' is an initial clue. This is why some minds contest that Muhammad 'founded' Islam, but since it is centric to Islamic theology that claim is easily refuted. The real issue is the time it takes for minds fixated on Muhammad and his religion to realize their subjectivity regarding things they believe to be true. -- HafizHanif (talk) 23:08, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
- Wikipedia does not exist to honor anybody. WP:NOT -- Doctorx0079 (talk) 23:09, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
@HafizHanif and Doctorx0079: Nope. The published source clearly refutes that he is the founder, and a general and unspecific link to WP:NOT does not change that. As previously mentioned, "promulgator" or identifying the POV's is more accurate and unbiased. – Batreeq (Talk) (Contribs) 23:15, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
- The point with WP:NOT is the honoring business. WP is not in the business of honoring, don't know what you were talking about with that. -- Doctorx0079 (talk) 23:18, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
- Please quote the passage you have in mind. – Batreeq (Talk) (Contribs) 23:21, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
- User HafizHanif said "According to published sources, Muhammad is NOT to be honored in fact-based information sources (which Wiki is supposed to be), but mentioned by name alone." Not sure what he's talking about there. Wikipedia doesn't exist to honor anybody. -- Doctorx0079 (talk) 02:16, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
- Please quote the passage you have in mind. – Batreeq (Talk) (Contribs) 23:21, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
- Perhaps I use too many words, because it seems they are being misinterpreted. To mention that Muslims see Muhammad as "prophet" is fine (mention once), but from then on it's simply 'Muhammad', not 'prophet Muhammad' or anything else. This is a scholar-based source, not a place to promote religious narrow-mindedness or even religious arguments. Doing otherwise would be 'honoring' a person, and this is not the aim nor the point of this open and neutral source (wiki). @Batreeq:, you quoted an editorial column. That is quoting bias. Citing subjectivity. That is not scholarly, but the very point being explained here by me. -- HafizHanif (talk) 20:25, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
- @HafizHanif: Biased sources are permitted (see WP:BIASEDSOURCES). Original thought is not. Muhammad is an Islamic Prophet and the short description reflects that. – Batreeq (Talk) (Contribs) 00:05, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
- Perhaps I use too many words, because it seems they are being misinterpreted. To mention that Muslims see Muhammad as "prophet" is fine (mention once), but from then on it's simply 'Muhammad', not 'prophet Muhammad' or anything else. This is a scholar-based source, not a place to promote religious narrow-mindedness or even religious arguments. Doing otherwise would be 'honoring' a person, and this is not the aim nor the point of this open and neutral source (wiki). @Batreeq:, you quoted an editorial column. That is quoting bias. Citing subjectivity. That is not scholarly, but the very point being explained here by me. -- HafizHanif (talk) 20:25, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
- @Batreeq: correct, citing bias sources is fine... in order to introduce bias and subjectivity and how some people see things. Such is understood when Muhammad is initially labeled a 'prophet' and that bias (or religious belief) is described. But since bias is restricted in an encyclopedia after introducing bias perspectives, then it is simply Muhammad and that is the end of it. When mainstream news sources, as I pointed out earlier, label Muhammad as 'prophet' without identifying that label as one sided, they are doing a poor job at journalism. I wonder if they are fearful of losing fingertips or heads... what do you think? (rhetorical question). Cheers. HafizHanif (talk) 21:11, 29 November 2018 (UTC)--
Your notions of poor journalism are irrelevant. The policies including WP:OR still stand. – Batreeq (Talk) (Contribs) 01:27, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
- This discussion reveals your inability to look past your religious subjectivity. Your argument that I'm attributing OR is precisely what your trying to color the article with (by calling the man's claim, or that of his followers, as factual). The issue has been long resolved . -- HafizHanif (talk) 02:22, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
- Facts[1] do not care about your feelings. I'm beginning to sound like a broken record. The discussion is not over. – Batreeq (Talk) (Contribs) 23:46, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
References
Alternative proposal: Central figure
Not to cause someone to site otherstuffexists, but look at Buddha and Jesus. Neither are described as the founder in the first sentence. How about calling Muhammad the central figure of Islam (like Jesus' lead), or saying that his teachings are the central tenants of Islam (per Buddha, more or less), or something similar? I don't think saying "Founder" is an issue, but evidently some people can't let it rest, so, this is my suggestion, feel free to ignore it. ‡ Єl Cid of ᐺalencia ᐐT₳LKᐬ 18:57, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
- Buddha, Jesus, and Muhammad are all central figures, yes. But Muhammad is something more than that. Neither Buddha nor Jesus claimed to offer a divinely revealed religion complete with laws and rules. Buddha offered a philosophical approach on which Buddhism was later founded, while Jesus was considered a rabbi who offered an alternative form of Judaism. Neither would be considered the "founder"; in fact the religions founded on their teachings did not exist during their lifetimes. Neither of them had the objective to establish a new religion.
- A better analogy would be Joseph Smith, who, like Muhammad, returned from a journey with revelations — in both cases, a large mass of written revelations created by a supernatural agent. And yes, Joseph Smith is indeed described as the founder of Mormonism. Both Islam and Mormonism came into being during the lifetimes of their founders, as a direct result of their own active and purposeful efforts in establishing a new religion. ~Anachronist (talk) 08:47, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
- Sounds good to me. Muhammad is the founder of Islam in the Joseph Smith sense. -- Doctorx0079 (talk) 20:08, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
- That analogy in comparing Joseph Smith's efforts and legacy is a decent one. Joseph Smith quoted the Bible and then introduced himself and a supposed 'revelation' and developed yet another religion, albeit one including major overtones of Christianity. Muhammad could be summarized as having done the same thing, only with Jewish and Christian overtones including Arabi-centric overtones of legend and folklore. No such thing as beheadings and cutting off of fingertips existed as a religious prescription in Judaism nor Christianity, so that is one of many details 'founded' and introduced by Muhammad. Since Muhammad is argued from an Islamic point of view as the 'perfect man' theologically, then he is surely the central figure of Islam and its model. -- HafizHanif (talk) 20:25, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
- @HafizHanif: "beheadings and cutting off of fingertips" is not a part of Islam nor our discussion. Please refrain from using original research to justify the use of the term "founder" in the short description (WP:OR and WP:SYNTH). – Batreeq (Talk) (Contribs) 00:02, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
- (Personal attack removed) by HafizHanif (talk) 21:06, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
- That analogy in comparing Joseph Smith's efforts and legacy is a decent one. Joseph Smith quoted the Bible and then introduced himself and a supposed 'revelation' and developed yet another religion, albeit one including major overtones of Christianity. Muhammad could be summarized as having done the same thing, only with Jewish and Christian overtones including Arabi-centric overtones of legend and folklore. No such thing as beheadings and cutting off of fingertips existed as a religious prescription in Judaism nor Christianity, so that is one of many details 'founded' and introduced by Muhammad. Since Muhammad is argued from an Islamic point of view as the 'perfect man' theologically, then he is surely the central figure of Islam and its model. -- HafizHanif (talk) 20:25, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
@HafizHanif: Shame on you for decontextualizing the Quran and promoting your extremist beliefs. You know well what the verse means, even without scholarly explanations.
"Often quoted but rarely contextualized, the verse refers to a miraculous event in which the enemies of Islam were confronted by the angels. It does not command Muslims to terrorize other communities through bombings and acts of random violence.
Ibn Kathir explains the meaning of this verse, saying: ثَبِّتُوا أَنْتُمُ الْمُسْلِمِينَ وَقَوُّوا أَنْفُسَهُمْ عَلَى أَعْدَائِهِمْ عَنْ أَمْرِي لَكُمْ بِذَلِكَ سَأُلْقِي الرُّعْبَ وَالْمَذَلَّةَ وَالصَّغَارَ عَلَى مَنْ خَالَفَ أَمْرِي وَكَذَّبَ رَسُولِي You – the angels – support the Muslims and strengthen their resolve against their enemies, thus implementing My command. I – Allah – will cast terror, disgrace, and humiliation upon whoever defies My command and rejects My messenger. Source: Tafseer Ibn Kathir 8:12 In the aftermath of the battle, there were signs that the angels had supported the Muslims in their defensive struggle against the persecuting army.
Ar-Rabi’ ibn Anas said: كَانَ النَّاسُ يَوْمَ بَدْرٍ يَعْرِفُونَ قَتْلَى الْمَلَائِكَةِ مِمَّنْ قَتَلُوا هُمْ بِضَرْبٍ فَوْقَ الْأَعْنَاقِ وَعَلَى الْبَنَانِ مِثْلَ سِمَةِ النَّارِ قَدِ أُحْرِقَ بِهِ In the aftermath of the battle of Badr, the people used to recognize whomever the angels killed by the wounds over their necks, fingers and toes, because those parts had a mark as if they were branded by fire.
Therefore, the verse refers to divine intervention by angels in support of the Muslims who were defending their city from aggression. The terror thrown into the unbelievers’ hearts was upon their realization that Allah was supporting the Muslims with angels and miracles. It does not mean Muslims have been commanded to spread terror and violence in society as a means of political change. Muslims are only permitted to take up arms against those who have declared war against them, never as a means to force people into Islam.
Ibn Taymiyyah writes: الكفار إنما يقاتلون بشرط الحراب كما ذهب اليه جمهور العلماء وكما دل عليه الكتاب والسنة The unbelievers are only fought on the condition that they declare war according to the majority of scholars, as evident in the book and prophetic tradition. Source: An-Nubuwwat 1/140
Ibn Al-Qayyim writes: وَلَمْ يُكْرِهْ أَحَدًا قَطُّ عَلَى الدِّينِ وَإِنَّمَا كَانَ يُقَاتِلُ مَنْ يُحَارِبُهُ وَيُقَاتِلُهُ وَأَمَّا مَنْ سَالَمَهُ وَهَادَنَهُ فَلَمْ يُقَاتِلْهُ وَلَمْ يُكْرِهْهُ عَلَى الدُّخُولِ فِي دِينِهِ The Prophet never forced the religion upon anyone, but rather he only fought those who waged war against him and fought him first. As for those who made peace with him or conducted a truce, then he never fought them and he never compelled them to enter his religion.
Source: Hidayat Al-Hayara 237
In conclusion, terrorism, political violence, and spreading religion by force is forbidden in Islam. Killing women, children, and non-combatants as well as initiating wars of aggression are major sins in Islam according to classical and modern authorities. Historically, the Prophet only fought battles in self-defense and to repel aggression against the Muslim community. (Source)" The tafsir of 47:4 can be found here and here.
According to The Huffington Post, "Terrorism and Islamophobia are two sides of the same coin of hate; they feed off each other. The distorted views of the 'other' held by both terrorists and Islamophobes, along with their extremist ideologies and convictions, are linked in a vicious cycle that is affecting world peace and security." (Source).
I suggest you remain on topic in regards to the article and avoid Islamophobia and trolling. – Batreeq (Talk) (Contribs) 01:26, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
- Your responses exemplify an inability to look past a religious pandering to ignorance. Now arguing divine intervention of angels for the evidence of beheadings and fingers nipping is the very point of this discussion! You lost. Religious ideology has clouded your objectivity. To call me extreme while apologizing for historical atrocities is, in itself, extreme. To then share contradictory Hadith that, according to you, justifies beheading and finger snipping atrocities is ridiculous and desperate. To call my effort in identifying the facts as 'phobic' only reveals your ignorance of historical facts written by Muslims. No objectivity. No understanding outside of religious dogma. My friend, this discussion is over. -- HafizHanif (talk) 02:22, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
- All, I would recommend that we all remain civil and assume good faith with each other. Religion is obviously a charged topic, so we have to be careful we don't lose sight of the fact that we are here to improve WP. Everyone is fine, but let's not let this get out of hand because we are all experienced and constructive editors - we can't let this spiral out into a religious and geopolitical debate, because this is not the place for that. Sorry if I sound preachy, I just want us to keep our goals in sight. Best ‡ Єl Cid of ᐺalencia ᐐT₳LKᐬ 13:45, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
- @HafizHanif: You knowingly posted a personal attack and off-topic information (that was not even a command to Muslims, whether or not you believe in angels). I advise you to say off topic and refrain from posting information that does not directly relate to the discussion of the edits at hand. – Batreeq (Talk) (Contribs) 02:08, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
Wikipedia must ad PBUH OR SAWW
There must be PBUH OR SAWW after the name of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). Hawbdutt (talk) 22:29, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
- Muslims use honorifics to honor Muhammed. WP is not Muslim, nor any religion. We keep a neutral perspective, like an encyclopedia must. Thank you ‡ Єl Cid of ᐺalencia ᐐT₳LKᐬ 22:49, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
- Also, WP:NOTHERE. -- Doctorx0079 (talk) 21:28, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
Slavery
SharabSalam, please see 'criticism' section (and more importantly sources) which notices slavery not only supported, but continued in the Islamic era by Muhammad. Please address this section's content and citations prior to deleting or altering the article further. You are currently edit warring, which is not allowed. -- HafizHanif (talk) 01:10, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
- @HafizHanif: clearly that does not mean that prophet Muhammad had 'slaves' (per slavery definition). He encouraged freeing slaves [2]. Prophet Muhammad Pbuh tried to demolish slavery gradually because at that time Arabs had lots of slaves in which it was difficult to stop slavery immediately. Regardless of this, adding this category without any prove at all that prophet Muhammad servents were slaves and that they weren't free is considered controversial what is more important, more disrespectful and unfriendly is your editwarring trying to add it before even ending the discussion so I kindly suggest you self-revert your edits. Thanks --SharabSalam (talk) 01:23, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
- I am done for the day, but will likely peruse this topic further just in case the issue is somehow unclear or confusing...and will update this discussion and perhaps the article tomorrow. This contemporary summary notes that Muhammad did in fact own, trade, and sell slaves during his lifetime. I don't have time at the moment to dig through the article's citations, but I'll do so tomorrow. I suggest you take some time to read about the topic further. Yes, it is noted he discouraged slavery, but historical records kept by Muslims show he persisted its institution (regardless of apologia, which leans more towards religious legend rather than scholarship, which is the aim of Wikipedia). His legacy reflects the fact of slavery during his lifetime and still today in places western culture has yet to root out the practice.
- The category about slave ownership previously existed in the article, so I'm not sure why you attribute its existence or inclusion to me. I simply noticed someone arbitrarily deleted it without a factual basis. I also understand its mention bothers the legend surrounding Muhammad. Secondly, it is a bit odd you are trying to warn me when the fact is I warned you about edit warring. Peace be upon you, friend. -- HafizHanif (talk) 03:53, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you Anachronist for helping us (and preventing me from spending too much time on this matter today)!
- Wikiemirati, SharabSalam, the contention is quite simple to logically resolve:
- Did Muhammad at any point during his lifetime own a slave?
- If no / never, then Muhammad was not a slave owner and thus the "slave owner" category is invalid.
- If yes / at some time, then Muhammad was, at least at some point in his life, a "slave owner" and the category is valid.
- I hope both of you take some time to read Criticism of Muhammad#Ownership of slaves and read the sourced scholarship more importantly. Peace be upon you both, dear friends. Let us move on from legends religiously formulated to convince us of things untrue, or embarrassing, or otherwise shameful. In doing so, may we see beyond honoring things our conscience (or God's light in our hearts) would forbid us to honor or justify. -- HafizHanif (talk) 18:51, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
- Hello HafizHanif, thank you for bringing my attention to this discussion. I am well aware of Muhammad's ownership of slaves, however as I understand manumission does not make you a slave owner. Muhammad has freed all his slaves as they were given to him. Please see islamic views on slavery#Muhammad's traditions on a detailed views of the slaves who were in service of Muhammad. Muhammad, at the time of his death, did not own any slaves. Wouldn't you say "previous slave owner" to be more accurate of a category since Muhammad has ceased to be a slave owner due to the act of manumission? Thank you. Wikiemirati (talk) 19:01, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
- If Muhammad bought or otherwise acquired slaves solely for the purpose of freeing them, then I wouldn't categorize him as a slave owner. However, if he kept slaves for any extended duration of servitude, and freed them before his death, he would qualify as a slave owner. Slave ownership was simply an accepted component of the culture at the time and Muhammad didn't question it. Categorizing someone as a slave owner isn't a moral judgment, it's simply a statement of fact. One can be kind to slaves and still be a slave owner. Thomas Jefferson could be considered one American example. Muhammad would also qualify as a slave owner if he trafficked in slaves; and at least one source says he bought and sold slaves (as opposed to buying and freeing them). Again, this was part of everyday life at that time and place. ~Anachronist (talk) 19:24, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
- Hello HafizHanif, thank you for bringing my attention to this discussion. I am well aware of Muhammad's ownership of slaves, however as I understand manumission does not make you a slave owner. Muhammad has freed all his slaves as they were given to him. Please see islamic views on slavery#Muhammad's traditions on a detailed views of the slaves who were in service of Muhammad. Muhammad, at the time of his death, did not own any slaves. Wouldn't you say "previous slave owner" to be more accurate of a category since Muhammad has ceased to be a slave owner due to the act of manumission? Thank you. Wikiemirati (talk) 19:01, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
- My friend Wikiemirati, that is an important question. Taking another man as an example, consider John Jay and how he also owned slaves, yet passed laws to end that institution while himself freeing his slaves well before his death. Yet he is still categorized as a slave owner in his wiki article since he, at one time, did in fact own slaves. Realize those categories exist for a reason. Consider also that what a man did at one point in his lifetime doesn't mean he died as such. This also means that what a man did at one point means this is what he will always 'be' remembered for. Repentance is a good word to consider. The example of John Jay shows how he repented (not only in words but in his deeds). So although John 'was' a slave owner, he turned it around.
- One point of contrast is that John did not give any credence for slavery's allowance, but stood opposed to it indefinitely after coming to terms with it in himself. I am not sure if the same could be said about Muhammad, since he still allowed slavery to persist despite asking for slaves to be treated better (which was a good thing). Let us consider that Muhammad had a stronger position (more influential and more powerful) than John Jay. While John had to work 'with' others, even his opponents, Muhammad had the power of his poetry and the belief that he was a prophet. As we read the Quran, we see how sweeping changes were made by the reciting of that poetry, while some things stayed the same. It would have been easy for Muhammad to also author a few poetic verses in abolishing slavery among his followers, or in all of Arabia, or for all Arabs, or all believers in God, or all of humanity / the world... but such was not the case as we can see. Peace be with you. -- HafizHanif (talk) 19:35, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
Best way to write shahada
I suggest the shahada to be written in its meaning rather than just direct translation because it leaves too much meaning of what people mean on the saying of converting to islam. To be fair it should mean exactly what it means nothing more nothing less There is no god worth of worship except one God(who is high up beyond holly God throne ) and Muhammad is his messenger" Almasimagorwa (talk) 12:28, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
- What are you referring to? The image in the infobox? In any case we should be consistent with our Shahada article. ~Anachronist (talk) 15:34, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
Lead is redundant
It says "prophet and God's messenger" which is describing being a prophet. I recommend cutting one or the other. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:E770:5420:DDD9:29CB:F37:FCFE (talk) 17:48, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
- I can't find that, but there is a difference in Islam. https://islam.stackexchange.com/questions/6/what-is-the-difference-between-nabi-and-rasul – Batreeq (Talk) (Contribs) 03:15, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
Why is PBUH missing from the blessed name of Prophet Muhammad Peace be upon him?
It is compulsory for all muslim to say peace be upon him after they spell the blessed name of Prophet Muhammad, then why is it missing on a page like WIKIPEDIA? It should be added as soon as possible. Lion9730 (talk) 12:09, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
- That's because Wikipedia does not follow muslim (among others) custom. Our "rule" on this can be seen at MOS:HONORIFIC and MOS:ISLAMHON. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:22, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
- WP is not Muslim. WP is not any religion. WP is not the place to expound your religious beliefs. ‡ Єl Cid of ᐺalencia ᐐT₳LKᐬ 12:30, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
- Using PBUH as you described is also not compulsory for Muslims. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 16:25, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
- It seems that Lion9730 doesn't consider you a Muslim unless you think it's compulsory. -- Doctorx0079 (talk) 22:18, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
- Using PBUH as you described is also not compulsory for Muslims. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 16:25, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
- WP is not Muslim. WP is not any religion. WP is not the place to expound your religious beliefs. ‡ Єl Cid of ᐺalencia ᐐT₳LKᐬ 12:30, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
- This was settled in 2007. -- Frotz(talk) 05:26, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 November 2018
the prophet muhammad should have a (pbuh)at the end 82.44.73.77 (talk) 17:50, 30 November 2018 (UTC)