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::::I guess I'll go ahead and do this, still not knowing where the April date came from. The citation from Huzar fails verification for the pages given, but it appears that the birthday may be given on another page that happens not to be available to me for preview (at least that would fit with the narrative at that point; my hazy recollection from last night is that it was p. 22). [[Edward Champlin]] somewhere states that there is no good biography of Antony (I don't have that citation), and instead recommends [[Christopher Pelling]]'s commentary on Plutarch's ''Life of Antony,'' which is how I landed on that. The July date may come erroneously from the restoration of Antony's name to the ''[http://books.google.com/books?id=JSccdOtgTboC&dq=%22fasti+colotani%22&q=%22restoration+of+Antony%27s+name+in+the%22#v=snippet&q=%22Figure%2016%20restoration%20of%20Antony's%20name%20in%20the%22&f=false Fasti Colonati]'', but that marks [http://books.google.com/books?id=PPSFPs2xsnMC&pg=PA159&dq=july+triumvirate+lepidus&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Ekb0ULSiAs-tqQGy04DoCg&ved=0CEgQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=july%20triumvirate%20lepidus&f=false the formation of the triumvirate,] not Antony's birth. [[User:Cynwolfe|Cynwolfe]] ([[User talk:Cynwolfe|talk]]) 17:56, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
:::::The change to April 20 [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mark_Antony&diff=519474761&oldid=519413403 started here,] back in October. It was questioned, but managed to stay in. If indeed [[Arthur Weigall]] says this, and if indeed he based it on Appian, then I suppose it could be noted as a minority view—but generally it's unwise to take Appian as fact over Suetonius. [[User:Cynwolfe|Cynwolfe]] ([[User talk:Cynwolfe|talk]]) 18:19, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
I cannot believe that the discussion of Marc Antony's birthday is based upon two items that couldn't be more superfluous: A series of emulative commentaries by modern biographers of classical Roman chroniclers, and the idea of Antony's proposed ''astrological sign'' (!!). Give academics and serious scholarship a break (!) With all due respect, this discussion resembles 60s hippies and 70s post-hippies who would probably discuss Linda Goodman's ''Sun Signs'' as serious conversation at a coffee table. The facts are that none of those commentaries which propose January 14 as Antony's birthday are conclusive or confirmed. It isn't like the established birthdates of Caesar, Pompey, Cicero, etc...January 14 is mere speculation. Weigall, in his 1931 biography, does not ''imply'' but unequivocally states that Antony was born on the day Lucius Cornelius Sulla landed at Brundisium in (Spring) 83 BC. Tracking Sulla's progression from the time of his landing at Brundisium (in Spring) to the eventual sacking of Rome on 6th July (Quintillus) 83 BC (recorded by Plutarch), narrows down the timeframe of Sulla's landing at Brundisium to the month of April 83 BC. I don't know where the proposed birthday of July 30th for Antony came from (?) I couldn't trace it to any source, so far. Arthur Weigall (in page 39 of his ''The Life and Times of Marc Antony'') of the cited link provided in the secondary reference section, is rather detailed and probably as convincing an account to any of those "commentaries" by modern biographers who seem to be on a "crusade" to make Jan. 14 Marc Antony's birthday...LOL
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Best friend of Caesar?
"He was an important supporter and the best friend of Gaius Julius Caesar as a military commander and administrator, being Caesar's second cousin, once removed, by his mother Julia Antonia." Is there any source from antiquity that lists Antony as Caesar's best friend? Seems a bit biased, and unproven, to me.
Missing Reference to marriage with Octavia in history of the Triumvirate
Someone oughta put that back in there. 68.84.228.122 01:01, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
- I just made an attempt at it, because it was certainly needed -- it was entirely omitted. Sisyphus88 (talk)
Considering the children
When Octavius invaded Egypt, where did he take the children captive? Were they all with Cleopatra and Mark Antony or were they all sent away and just ran into Octavius on the way? The children were Caesarion, Alexander Helios, Cleopatra Selene, Ptolemy Philadelphus and Mark Antony's two boys Antyllus and Iullus. Octavius killed Caesarion and Antyllus, but let the others go, sending them all to live with Octavia. Why did he let the others go? Selene I could understand, she a girl and couldn't cause too much trouble. The two boys Antony had with Cleopatra, were both quite young and may have been let off... But why Iullus? --80.193.19.191 20:24, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
- Augustus probably spared Iullus' life because he was a child still (IE had not put on his manly gown). At the time of the then Gaius Octavius (Augustus) capture of Egypt, the children were all of certain ages. Caesarion and Antyllus were both seventeen. They were grown-ups in the Roman world, as many boys started to take resonsiblity. However Octavius probably would have killed Caesarion no matter how old he was as he was too much of a threat for Rome.The other kids, Alexander, Selene and Ptolmey were still quite young and Romans didn't like killing children if they didn't have to. The twins were no older then Octavius' own daughter, who was just a little girl at the time, so I can understand why spared them.
- Iullus, on the other hand, was fifteen. A few years older, he probably would have been killed too. Nonetheless, the two sons of Cleo and Antony died and no one knows why (It's unlikely Augustus killed them after sparing their lives). The only ones who really gained anything out of being spared were Iullus and Selene. Octavius treated them both very kindly, allowing Selene to marry Juba II of Numidia and Iullus was praetor in 13 BC, consul in 10 BC and Asian proconsul. His mistake was getting up to some ooh laa laa with Augustus daughter, Julia. C'est la vie, eh? --Camblunt100 16:22, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
A separate consideration:
Octavian did not let Alexander Helios nor Ptolemy Philadelphus go -- they were hung on crosses next to their brother. The Holy Bible says that the malefactors that were cruxified with Christ shared in his condemnation (shared in his accusation, were also accused of being Kings). These three Kings.. three Theives...Three Male-factors... with the "Donations" of Alexandria, octavian's propoganda was that "Cleopatra" had stolen these lands from rome. Thus her children who were in possession of this "stolen" property are the "Theives". The birth of Jesus Christ starts with the Imposter imposing a tax on all the world, and further it states, that the taxing was first made when quirnius was governor of Syria (this is only possible after the removal of young Philadelphus). This is octavian asserting all the authority he derived from murdering the King of Kings and rightful heir. Some may consider this heresy, but the reality is that octavian and herod both were imposters that stole other's Rightful kingdoms. herod bleed to an end the Hasmonean house and Octavian brought to an end the House of Ptolemais.Proverbs 1. +*
- +* One has to seriously doubt the credibility of the above quoted biblical theory that Philadelphus and Helios were crucified with Christ. They were captured twenty years before Christ was even born. We'd have to presume that they were, in Helios' case, past sixty years old when a later Emperor decided to hang them on crosses beside Jesus Christ. In truth, they disappeared from the historical record while they were still children, even though their sister did not.--Stephdray 15:38, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
- Some say that octavian let alexander and philadelphus live, where? what happened to them? Alexander was engaged to Iotape, where are their children? The whole reason they went to war was based on Antony "abandoning" his wife in Rome, and giving his inheritance to Philadelphus and Alexander-- 'and the "ex-wife" gets the kids?' a jealous/scorned woman? They were equally as threatening as Iwa n Ntr the moment they were crowned -- for their entire lifetimes could they legitametly claim rulership in those territories.
- Octavian couldn't have killed the two younger boys because he had already spared their lives. The twin Alexander Helios was in the victory walk chained up Cleopatra Selene (and maybe Iullus?) but the younger one could have easily died of illness on the way back or knocked off by other things or people on the way back to Rome. It can be a dangerous journey for little children, bare in mind. Besides, why not kill Iullus? He killed Antyllus, he killed Caesarion, and if what you say is true, he killed Alexander Helios (who was not much older then Octavian's own little girl) and Philadelphus (a very young child)... why not Iullus? The boy would without a doubt habour revenge for the deaths of his brothers and his father, not to mention he was several years older then the young two boys. Why not kill all the boys... Antyllus, Iullus and Caesarion were more of a threat then Alexander and Philadelphus, yet he kept Iullus alive. It says in the histories that Octavian intended on giving Selene, Iullus, Alexander and Philadelphus to Octavia, who was anything but a jealous and scorned woman-- was it his fault not all of them made it to the house? --Camblunt100 13:31, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Title
Since the article itself refers to Antony as Marcus Antonius, which was the name to which he would have answered, wouldn't it make sense to make Marcus Antonius the article and render Mark Antony as a redirect like Marc Antony, the other recognized Anglicized spelling? Jeff Anonymous 14:13, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I think the title of a page is supposed to be the name which is most often searched for/recognized by, and how many people actually know his name was Marcus Antonius?
Kuralyov 07:26, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
For me you are welcome to make the move. [[User:Muriel Gottrop|muriel@pt]] 10:02, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It should stay at Mark Anthony, as this is the most common name in English. -- ALoan (Talk) 11:12, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
This is old, but i've always seem him referred to as Marc Anthony(not Mark) in every history book and article on him i've ever read. I agree with JeffTL's suggestion to change the name. Spyke 21:26, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
- I'd be curious as to what scholarly works you've seen calling him "Marc Anthony". Encyclopaedia Britannica (standard English-language source for general knowledge) and the Oxford Classical Dictionary (standard English-language source for the classics) both call him "Mark Antony"; Britannica acknowledges "Marc Anthony" as an occasionally-used byname, but the OCD does not.
- Looking through the two dozen or so books about the topic on my bookshelf, I can find only references to "Mark Antony", never to "Marc Anthony"; these include my translations of Suetonius, Plutarch and Caesar; Dodge's biography of Caesar, Meier's biography of Caesar (in English translation), Everett's biography of Cicero and Rice's biography of Cleopatra; and a half a dozen or so college textbooks and other works on Roman history. The only book I can find here that doesn't call him "Mark Antony" is Seager's biography of Pompey, which only ever calls him "M. Antonius". And if we want to branch into literature, everyone from Shakespeare to Robert Graves to Colleen McCullough has called him "Mark Antony".
- I will admit that I have seen him called "Marc Anthony" many times in informal or casual settings—restaurant names, movie reviews, passing mentions in newspaper articles—but these have always looked to me more like ignorant misspellings, borne out of the simple fact that these are the forms of the English forenames "Marc" and "Anthony" with which the authors are most familiar, than genuine proof that this is a more prevalent legitimate spelling than the traditional "Mark Antony" that is (in my experience) pretty much universal in English-language works on Roman history. Binabik80 20:46, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
- Addendum: Flipping through my sources again today for a debate on nomenclature over at Talk:Augustus, I notice that in fact, Rice's biography of Cleopatra gives Antony's praenomen as Marc, not Mark (but still gives his surname as Antony, not Anthony). I don't know how I missed it the first time, but I felt I should note it here in the interests of intellectual honesty. Binabik80 20:25, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
- I lack the learned resources of yourself, but I've always known him as Marc Antony -- wasn't k added to the alphabet that English inherited some time after the Roman times? Sisyphus88 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 05:04, 30 December 2008 (UTC).
Articles on Horace, Virgil, Ovid, Lucan, Julius Caesar, Pompey, and others are titled as listed, by their anglicized name. "Mark Antony" I believe is usually thought of as the most often used anglicization of his name. It is the one used by Shakespeare. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 15lsoucy (talk • contribs) 21:02, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
A Discrepancy between two articles
I've read both the Marcus Antonius and the Cicero articles, and there is a discrepancy between the two entries on the death of Cicero. In the Cicero article, the death of Cicero is attributed to Antonius' request. In the Antonius article, Cicero's death is attributed to suicide. It might be helpful to edit one or the other of the articles for consistency's sake. -Hilary Agrippina121@aol.com (19 Jan 2005) roy antony
- There is no discrepancy: Antony sent men in pursuit of Cicero to murder him; Cicero tried to escape but he couldnt, so he killed himself. It was suicide, but due to Antony's wish to get rid of him. You are of course welcome to rephrase the articles to make the point clearer. I like your user name. muriel@pt 20:40, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
"Cicero fled, but was caught and decapitated by his pursuers on December 7, 43 BC." The Marcus Antonius article states that he committed suicide. That seems like a discrepancy to me. I like your user name too. -Ariadne (21 January 2005)
Now that I've raised the issue, I'm not sure of the appropriate method to correct it. According to Plutarch, the centurion Herennius decapitated Cicero. Plutarch does remark that Cicero held forth his head for judgment, but I am not sure that it can be classified as a suicide in the same sense as that of Antonius or Cleopatra. Livy's description accords with this. I'm more inclined to edit the article to label Cicero's death as murder, but that he gave himself up to death with dignity. Plutarch: Cicero (48) "He was all covered with dust; his hair was long and disordered, and his face was pinched and wasted with his anxieties -- so that most of those who stood by covered their faces while Herennius was killing him. His throat was cut as he stretched his neck out from the litter." -- Hilary (21 Jan 2005)
- Dear Hilary, please feel free to improve the articles with information you find relevant. Be bold! muriel@pt 14:29, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Cicero was executed, according to Everitt's biography. This has been changed.
Nomenclature
Following on a little from the discussion on the article's Title above, I'd like to gauge people's reaction to the idea of changing Antony's name to Antony (from Antonius) throughout the article. Personally I'm very much in favour of referring to Romans with anglicised names by those names; I've discussed the issue at a little length on my user page and encourage any comments people have about it on my talk page, but to summarise briefly for a discussion on Mark Antony:
- All the other articles for Romans with anglicised names use their anglicised names (Pompey, Caesar Augustus (Octavian), Livy, Virgil).
- We're writing in English and, as the article admits in its first sentence, Mark Antony is his name in the English language; Antony is correct in English just as Antonius is correct in Latin.
- Both laymen and scholars refer to him as Antony, so by referring to him as Antonius we're not accruing for ourselves any sort of patina of scholarly credibility (IMHO, quite the opposite).
- Most critically, and (again IMHO) trumping all other arguments, by using names with which the vast majority of our readers are unfamiliar we actively work against our highest purpose here of making knowledge freely available to those who seek it; we make our information less accessible to our readers by using a name that doesn't allow them to place that information in context with what they may already know, and therefore make it harder for them to find the understanding they want and that we're supposed to be trying to give them.
I look forward to hearing everyone else's comments. Binabik80 17:32, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Having heard no objections, I'm now going to make the change.Binabik80 15:27, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- I for one saw no harm in leaving Antonius as Antonius. Antonius is quite correct in English -- if the article is at Mark Antony with a redirect at Marcus Antonius in case someone enters it, calling him Antonius in the article makes sense and would appear to be sound encyclopedic work. I don't see how it harmed accessibility at all -- as long as if you type in Mark Antony, the article comes up. But hey, qué será será. Jeff Anonymous 03:41, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I'm not sure how it could be sound encyclopaedic work; I've never seen a single English language encyclopaedia that refers to him as Antonius (though admittedly I don't go around reading Mark Antony articles from sundry encyclopaediae; however, I know for a fact that Encyclopaedia Britannica certainly refers to him as Antony); moreover, I can think of only 2 Roman history books I've ever read that referred to him as Antonius, both of which referred to all Romans by their Latin names (Pompey was Pompeius, Livy was Livius, etc.), which Wikipedia doesn't; and I can't remember any one of over a dozen classical studies professors & instructors referring to him as anything other than Mark Antony over my four years of college. I'll admit this is all anecdotal evidence (anyone have a survey from a scientifically random sample showing the prevalence of Antony or Antonius in academia?) but, since it's anecdotal evidence that includes both the English language's most recognised encyclopaedia & most of the standard English works on the fall of the Roman Republic, to me this makes Antony standard usage and Antonius non-standard.
- Even so, I wouldn't find Antonius objectionable (since it is, of course, factually correct) if it wasn't for the accessibility issue--the name Mark Antony carries an instant recognition value for the average English speaker (most of whose knowledge of Roman history comes from Cleopatra, I, Claudius, Asterix or Gladiator) that Antonius simply will never have. When a reader reads in the Julius Caesar article that Caesar was offered a crown by Antony, or in the Publius Clodius Pulcher article that Clodius' widow subsequently married Mark Antony, he knows instantly who's being talked about & can contextualise that information into the rudimentary frame of knowledge he already has about the topic. If he reads in Clodius that, say, "Clodius then married Fulvia, who after his death would go on to marry Marcus Antonius," he doesn't get that same recognition value at all. So once we've established the desirability of standardising such references to him in other articles, using the non-standard reference in his own article just seems to me, well, rather odd.
- But of course, this is all my opinion. Binabik80 18:22, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Do we know why Mark Antony / Marcus Antonius has only two names, when most Roman nobles had the standard three (or sometimes four)? Why does he have no cognomen? His father was called Creticus, but it seems that name was not used by Antony? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shulgi (talk • contribs) 18:03, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
- It appears that, at this time, the Antonii did not feel the need to add a cognomen to their name to identify various branches of the clan. All cognomens associated with the Antonii were related to individuals only. So Marcus Antonius's grandfather had the cognomen Orator, in tribute to his oratorical skills, while his father was given the name Creticus in mockery over his career in Crete. His brother, Lucius Antonius, adopted the cognomen Pius. So Marcus Antonius remained such, adopting no cognomen for himself, certainly not Creticus. Perhaps we could speculate that he would have liked to have adopted a cognomen such as Philippicus, in honor of his victory at Philippi, but since Cicero had already used a version of that term to attack Antonius (the Philippicae, named after a political attack on King Philip of Macedon), it would not have been prudent. Oatley2112 (talk) 04:48, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
Not really true
I dont write in English so good,so I apologise for it, but this part of the article is not accurate:
"Then came the day of Caesar's funeral. As Caesar's ever-present second in command, partner in consulship and cousin, Antony was the natural choice to make the funeral eulogy. In his speech, he sprang his accusations of murder and ensured a permanent breach with the conspirators. Showing a talent for rhetoric and dramatic interpretation, Antony snatched the toga from Caesar's body to show the crowd the scars from his wounds. That night, the Roman populace attacked the assassins' houses, forcing them to flee for their lives."
^^^^^^^^^^
It is historical fact that Shekspare wrote that speech in his act:"Mark Anthony and Cleopatra".
The real, original speech was not preserved and Shekspare only wrote what he thought Mark Anthony might have said.
Therefore,it would be good if someone added it up to this article. I could have done it, but like I said, I dont write English very well, so its better if someone else do itDzoni 02:36, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
- Shakespeare's speech is based on the following passage from Plutarch's Life of Antony, which clearly says that Antony showed the bloody toga and the wounds to the crowd:
- As Caesar's body was conveying to the tomb, Antony, according to the custom, was making his funeral oration in the market place, and, perceiving the people to be infinitely affected with what he had said, he began to mingle with his praises language of commiseration, and horror at what had happened, and, as he was ending his speech, he took the under-clothes of the dead, and held them up, showing them stains of blood and the holes of the many stabs, calling those that had done this act villains and bloody murderers. All which excited the people to such indignation, that they would not defer the funeral, but, making a pile of tables and forms in the very market-place, set fire to it; and everyone, taking a brand, ran to the conspirators' houses, to attack them.
- The deleted passage you questioned is entirely consistent with this account, so I am restoring it.Paul B 12:48, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Can you give the link to that,or at least show that passage in latin languageDzoni 13:21, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
- Online versions _[1] [2] Shakespeare's speech, as it happens, appears in Julius Caesar, not Antony and Cleopatra. Paul B 20:19, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
You gave me english version by accident.Can you give the original,latin version,just to make sure that its right,because you know that someone could change english version any way he wants.You dont have to give the whole version,just that passage in latin,because im pretty sure there is no passage like thatDzoni 01:45, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
- It was written in Greek, not Latin. I don't think there's an elaborate internet conspiracy to rewrite Plutarch! Paul B 23:40, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Please stop focusing on irrelevant things.I know its written in Greek,but I dont know Greek,do I,so I asked you for Latin passage.My point is:your are English,and your sources could be very well written by yourself or some other English or American historian.
I think tht we`ll agree that they are not the highest experts in this matter,since Amirica wasnt made back in the time about we are talkin about,and England was a land full of Wild people.So,Latin translation of Greek writings would be accetable,if you want to have a serious grounds.Off course,you can always just use force and put whaetever you like in the article,but if you dont prove it with Latin or at least Greek(old Greek) passage,then you know as well as I do that its not valid at all.Dzoni 03:44, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
- This gets a little silly here, doesn't it? For one thing, why is a Latin translation of Plutarch's works any more legitimate than an English translation? Surely all the liberties you accuse the translator of his work into English of taking could also be taken by someone translating the work into Latin. For instance, I could translate the passage into Latin (from the English) for you right now if you'd like. So pointing out that Plutarch wrote in Greek is not "irrelevant"—the Greek is his original text, and anything in any other language, whether Latin, English, or Japanese, is a translation.
- And Plutarch is such a well-known source, with so many different translations (into English and pretty much every other major language on Earth, plus a number of not-so-major ones) over the centuries that all agree with each other, many of which are easily available online, that no, I would absolutely disagree with the notion that we need to cite in its original Greek a passage that appears in every English translation of Plutarch's Antony in order for the citation to have validity (which, of course, isn't even what you're requesting—you expect someone to find for you a Latin translation of the passage that would be equally as illegitimate as any English translation).
- You have made an allegation about the accuracy of the information in the article but have provided no information to back it up. You have been provided with a link to Plutarch's work (in English) to counter your argument. In order for your position to retain any validity, you need to produce a version of Plutarch's Antony that doesn't contain the very famous passage regarding Antony's actions at Caesar's funeral. In the original Greek would be best, since it would settle the argument right there; producing it in translation (whether in English, Latin or anything else) will merely necessitate having to go to the Greek to settle the matter. (And I freely admit, I've never read Plutarch in Greek. Maybe we are the victim of a massive conspiracy by everyone who's ever translated him into English over the past three centuries, and by the several people I've met who have read his work in the original Greek. I'm not sure what they'd have to gain, though.)
- It does seem a little odd to me that you're arguing about our sources on Mark Antony without, apparently, having read what's pretty much our only major source on him (we also have minor contributions from Appian and Dio Cassius), especially given that the people you're arguing with clearly are familiar with Plutarch. I'd recommend you check him out, not just because he's so central to our understanding of the Classical world, but because he's also a pretty entertaining read.
- And I really don't understand what the conditions of America and England during the first century BC have to do with anything—are you saying that if we came from countries that were already part of the Mediterranean cultural sphere during that period, like Spain or Tunisia, that somehow our knowledge of Plutarch would be less suspect to you? (Quite apart from your implication that the Americas somehow didn't exist before being discovered by Europeans—perhaps I'm merely misunderstanding what you were trying to say.) Binabik80 21:48, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Mark Antony in popular culture
anyone think this should be a new section of this article?Im thinking of adding it but also think that someone will delete it straight away. Dermo69
I like the idea. The popular interpretations of Antony (Shakespeare's Antony-as-avenger, Colleen McCullough's Antony-as-accessory) are at least as influential today as the historical record. Cranston Lamont 22:15, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
This article is ancient propaganda? Mark Antony Smeared
Has anyone heard of the arguments that our account of MA has been corrupted by Augustan propaganda?
- Every historical view is tainted. After all, history is always written by the victor. It's thus somewhat to be expected that Anthony's picture is somewhat "rewritten" (although the real victim and target of Octavian's wrath was the "foreigner" Cleopatra who had seduced the "Roman" general). Nonetheless it's an established fact that he lead a bawdy live in his youth. -- fdewaele, 6 February 2007, 11:30
Glaring omission
All Roman citezens had three names, but Marcus Antonius's third name, the cognomen, is not found in the article. Forget about the name of the article; it's missing part of the person's name. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.35.93.125 (talk) 02:32, 21 March 2007 (UTC).
I agree. I came to the page specifically to look for that information! It seems he didn't have one. Plutarch mentions absent cognomens in his piece on Marius and Antony is the most famous example so maybe a line about its absence could be added here? Sally quasa 20:13, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
- Not all Romans had three names e.g. Gnaeus Pompey only had two, Magnus was awarded to him after military success. Only members of large families with traceable records had three names, and Antony was not part of one of these, hence only two names. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.99.138.2 (talk) 14:17, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Paragraph Confusion
In the section "Enemy of the state and triumvir", it talks about Antony meeting Cleopatra but repeats itself; the last sentence should be incorporated into the paragraph above it. Specifically, I would reword it as:
"After the battle, a new arrangement was made between the members of the Second Triumvirate: while Octavian returned to Rome, Antony went to Egypt where he allied himself with Queen Cleopatra VII, who was the former lover of Julius Caesar and mother of Caesar's infant son, Caesarion. He wanted Cleopatra for Egypt's wealth, and she wanted Antony for the Roman armies under his control. Lepidus went on to govern Hispania and the province of Africa.
The original text: " After the battle, a new arrangement was made between the members of the Second Triumvirate: while Octavian returned to Rome, Antony went to Egypt where he allied himself with Queen Cleopatra VII, who was the former lover of Julius Caesar and mother of Caesar's infant son, Caesarion. Lepidus went on to govern Hispania and the province of Africa.
Later in October Antony set out to Egypt and met Caesar's former lover, Cleopatra. He wanted Cleopatra for Egypt's wealth, and she wanted Antony for the Roman armies under his control."
One could possibly omit the entire last sentence, to be honest. Not sure if it's totally necessary.
Cause of war with Octavian
- What did seriously threaten Octavian's political position, however, was the acknowledgement of Caesarion as legitimate and heir to Caesar's name. Octavian's base of power was his link with Caesar through adoption, which granted him much-needed popularity and loyalty of the legions. To see this convenient situation attacked by a child borne by the richest woman in the world was something Octavian could not accept.
This strikes me as a partisan pro-Octavian way to explain the cause of war -- and probably not even true. Plutarch's account says that the Donations of Alexandria declared Caesarion co-ruler of Egypt with Cleopatra -- nothing about him being heir to Caesar. An heir is someone named in your will, so it seems unreasonable for someone other than Caesar to be declaring anyone his heir. The triumvirate originally consisted of Octavian, Anthony, and Lepidus, with Anthony as first among equals. Octavian later took the Western provinces from Lepidus as well as Sicily from Sextus (36 BC). This altered the balence of power between himself and Anthony. After defeating the Illyrians in 33 BC, Octavian's home base in Italy was secure and he was ready to attack Anthony. Anthony's plan was to win a striking victory over the Parthians and return to Rome as a conquering hero, much as Caesar did after conquering Gaul. To look at Cleopatra, Octavia, and Caesarion as reasons for war is a lot of romantic nonsense. Anthony's heir was Antyllus, his son by Fulvia. So none of Octavia's or Cleopatra's children were ever likely successors. The issue in the war was that both Octavian and Anthony wanted to be No. 1, but only one of them could be. Kauffner 07:43, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
- The article is unclear in this matter- the heir of Caesar issue was likely a factor that provoked Octavius to war sooner than he had anticipated, but war was inevitable anyway. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.99.138.2 (talk) 14:23, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Ancient Roman / Modern USA Exchange rate ?
The article states:
Plutarch mentions the rumor that before Antony reached 20 years of age, he was already indebted the sum of 250 talents (equivalent to $165,000,000 USD).
Really? How is the equivalent money in modern USD arrived at? Who worked this out?
The Prime Source 21:21, 15 July 2007 (UTC)Dale
How on earth does someone rack up $165 million in debts by age 20?
Does anyone else find this more than a little hard to swallow?I elliot 11:23, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
- See Talent (measurement) for money conversion. Based on value of gold. I don't know about the credibility of that particular story, but I don't doubt the ability of a compulsive gambler to rack up as fantastic an amount of debt as their creditors allowed. -- Infrogmation 14:53, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
The Romans also used silver as a unit of value, so that could have been 250 talents of silver, which would be worth a lot less. (Maybe only $2M.)207.47.120.50 19:36, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- Plutarch used the Attic talent, which was 25.8kg of pure silver. At $414/kg, a talent would be worth $10,700 and Anthony's debt was $2.7 million. During the last century or two, the value of silver has taken a roller coaster ride, so estimating historic value is a complex issue. This source calculates that a talent is equivalent to $20,000 in today's money. Kauffner (talk) 10:01, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
- The information above is good. Unfortunately, comparisons with today's values fail once you go back even 100 years. It was a different "economic paradigm." A few talents here, a few talents there, and you own the city. No Federal Reserve (or national equivalents) multiplying money. Billionaires today are (uh) a dime a dozen. (!) Anyway, someone with a few hundred talents in Roman times cut a mighty swath. Or in debt maybe! Putting today's value on silver just doesn't really convey the power the person had. The average man in the street had a few pieces of silver and (if he were lucky) his own roof over his head. That was it. And that described 99% of the population. Student7 (talk) 12:23, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks for the information. Rather than include it in this and every similar article, can we include it in the article Talent (measurement) and then link to it? The definition really has nothing to do with Mark Anthony per se. Student7 (talk) 23:02, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
- The information is in a footnote now, so it isn't disrupting the narrative focus on Antony. But, yes, it should also be in the Talent (measurement) article. Kauffner (talk) 10:45, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
Image bust
Image:Marcus Antonius1.jpg is listed as being from the Vatican Museum and licenced as a work of the United States Government, which I find rather curious. I've left a query on the uploader's talk page, but I also wished to note here in case anyone else has more info on the image. Thanks, -- Infrogmation 19:17, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Mark Anthony's sexual orientation
Just like many other ancient Romans and Greeks, he had done men too. I've read this in "Philippics against Mark Anthony" By Marcus Tullius Cicero (can't remember which part though). However, in this book, which contains a dozen speeches held in the Senate, Cicero isn't too objective and he used many other means to persuade the Senate about his point (and he was good at it), so I'm not sure if Cicero said the truth OR modified it in order to serve his goals. 79.114.228.101 20:17, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Bagdardus?
Bagdardus? What is this? Vandalism? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.212.171.26 (talk) 09:12, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
inadequate article
This article, though full of worthy work, reads like a Victorian "Story From History". It is inadequately sourced, does not discuss variant interpretations of the evidence, and is in many respects historically naive. Wikipedia ought to be able to do better.Deipnosophista (talk) 07:54, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
Infobox Image
The original image as uploaded contained an inadequate license. It has been deleted. During research for another article I stumbled across the original image in it's original publication dated from 1899 and have uploaded a scan from the book "A short History of Rome" with proper license and correct citations. I cannot seem to get the image to load properly in the infobox....but here it is if editors still want it on the page.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.62.180.178 (talk) 00:43, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
Article needs cleaning up
This article has fallen into disrepair and needs much work. Please help to identify the needed improvements by scanning through the Project ratings boxes that I have un-nested to show how far this page has fallen. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.62.180.178 (talk) 03:21, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- There are only five referenced statements in the entire article. Every event is given a pro-Caesar or pro-Octavian spin with no acknowledgement that any historian has proposed an alternative interpretation. Caesar refusing the diadem shows he didn't want to be king? It was a trail balloon to test public reaction. Kauffner (talk) 09:11, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Antony and Cleopatra.
The section regarding Mark Antony's relationship with Cleopatra seems biased and is heavily influenced by subsequent literature. It's more a mixture of roman propaganda and shakespearean drama than an actual account of verifiable events. Particularly, the depiction of Cleopatra as a sovereign, as opposed to the ruler of a de facto vassal state, should be edited. The section's counterpart in the article for Cleopatra is, while not perfect, much more professional and impartial. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chilreu (talk • contribs) 21:07, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- Yes and the Cleopatra sections in general are written from patriarch/male-normative viewpoint, as depicting Cleopatra as a woman, rather than a historical Queen abilities next to Caesar, Anthony and Augustus, but as a woman -> who had a vagina.WillBildUnion (talk) 02:15, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
Move?
- The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was not done. Skomorokh, barbarian 10:15, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
Mark Antony → Marcus Antonius — — The page should be at his real name. — 75.10.49.89 (talk) 22:02, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- His English name though is Mark Antony and that is also what he is usually called in literature and other media. TJ Spyke 02:54, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- Clearly not uncontroversial. --DAJF (talk) 06:55, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- The form Mark Antony arose largely via Shakespeare, as with Elsinore versus Helsingör. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:39, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose as the common name used for him in English is Mark Antony.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 00:32, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Birthdate
Why is his birth year listed as 83 in the first paragraph? He was either 53 or 56 at the date of his death, yet he was the eldest son of 3, the oldest of the other two having been born in 84 (according to [4]) indicating he was 56 when he died (and thus born in 86). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.27.191.222 (talk) 23:42, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
- In regard to this, but a few months later, I deleted an unsourced and insupportable statement that Antony and Caesar lied about their age to make themselves younger. Pardon my bluntness, but this is utterly ridiculous in Roman society: longevity was something to be proud of, and if a politician lied about his age, he'd most likely make himself older, in order to meet the age requirements for public office. This is the issue with Caesar: if he was born in 100 instead of 102, he held his consulship extra ordinem, that is, he hadn't met the age requirement. This is one argument for the earlier year, since it seems likely that would've turned up in somebody's list of laws, rules, and mores he violated. (Sulla's reforms in the requirements for the cursus, and supposed exemptions for patricians, enter this.) Nobody has to have "falsified" for us not to know the year of birth for someone who lived 2,000 years ago. Information slips through the crack. Jerome's Chronicon will disagree with something Valerius Maximus says. Anyway, you need to cite modern-era historians who put together the evidence for the year of birth. Reading the ancient sources yourself and drawing your own conclusions is the kind of original research not permitted on WP . Cynwolfe (talk) 02:50, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
Republican gentes
Hello (sorry for the mistakes),
I understood, by reading the article about Julii Caesares, that Antony and Julius Caesar shared a common ancestor : Sextus Julius Caesar I. Indeed, Antony mother, Julia Antonia, daughter of Lucius Julius Caesar III, was Caesar third cousin. I'd like to add this information, but I don't have any references. My question is : do you know a reference work about Republican gentes in general, and Julii in particular ?
Actually, which ancient author(s) do(es) give pieces information about genealogy to us ?
Regards, Fsojic (talk) 22:16, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
Birthday
According to Suetonius 11.3, Mark Antony had the same birthday as Drusus, the father of Claudius. Augustus made sure Antony's birthday was a dies vitiosus, but Claudius restored it, as he could legitimately do out of pietas for both Antony and his father. That shared date is January 14, as this commentary on the Suetonius passage states. So too Goldsworthy, though he's less about nitpicking facts than the overall narrative. A recent biography of Livia also goes with January 14 for Antony's dies natalis, as does this biography of Antonia. And in snippet, the biography of Antony himself by Pat Southern. The confusion has to do in part with the shift to the Julian calendar, but it isn't entirely clear to me where the summer date is coming from—one source I saw mentions that Antony was born under the sign of Leo, presumably accepting the July date. Cynwolfe (talk) 04:58, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
- In any case, it's nonsensical to say Antony was born on July 30th, 83 BC, coinciding with Lucius Cornelius Sulla's landing at Brundisium on the eve of the anniversary of the founding of Rome (April 21). If there's a source that says it coincided with the eve of Sulla's landing, you can't just plop in July 30. What you have is conflicting evidence as to when his birthday was. So could we perhaps proceed a little more methodically? Cynwolfe (talk) 05:22, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
- I find it very odd that this discussion is taking place on January 14. Pelling's commentary on Plutarch's Life of Antony also goes with January 14. Cynwolfe (talk) 06:00, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
- I also find this very curious. Every source I've ever seen, including my old World Encyclopedias from the 60s, declare Marcus Antonius' birthday to be January 14. As to Antonius being born under the sign of Leo, keep in mind that the Roman calendar was shorter than the Julian and Gregorian calendar and could fall out of sync with the seasons and, presumably, with the normal timeframes for Zodiacal signs. It's probable that some enterprising scholar figured out the calculations for Antonius' birthday by the Gregorian calendar. That doesn't make it match with the sources, however, so his original birthdate of January 14 should be restored. Speaking of which, someone decided to make January 14 the birthdate of his son Antyllus, so that should be discussed and fixed as well.Black Sword (talk) 16:23, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
- I guess I'll go ahead and do this, still not knowing where the April date came from. The citation from Huzar fails verification for the pages given, but it appears that the birthday may be given on another page that happens not to be available to me for preview (at least that would fit with the narrative at that point; my hazy recollection from last night is that it was p. 22). Edward Champlin somewhere states that there is no good biography of Antony (I don't have that citation), and instead recommends Christopher Pelling's commentary on Plutarch's Life of Antony, which is how I landed on that. The July date may come erroneously from the restoration of Antony's name to the Fasti Colonati, but that marks the formation of the triumvirate, not Antony's birth. Cynwolfe (talk) 17:56, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
- The change to April 20 started here, back in October. It was questioned, but managed to stay in. If indeed Arthur Weigall says this, and if indeed he based it on Appian, then I suppose it could be noted as a minority view—but generally it's unwise to take Appian as fact over Suetonius. Cynwolfe (talk) 18:19, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
- I guess I'll go ahead and do this, still not knowing where the April date came from. The citation from Huzar fails verification for the pages given, but it appears that the birthday may be given on another page that happens not to be available to me for preview (at least that would fit with the narrative at that point; my hazy recollection from last night is that it was p. 22). Edward Champlin somewhere states that there is no good biography of Antony (I don't have that citation), and instead recommends Christopher Pelling's commentary on Plutarch's Life of Antony, which is how I landed on that. The July date may come erroneously from the restoration of Antony's name to the Fasti Colonati, but that marks the formation of the triumvirate, not Antony's birth. Cynwolfe (talk) 17:56, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
- I also find this very curious. Every source I've ever seen, including my old World Encyclopedias from the 60s, declare Marcus Antonius' birthday to be January 14. As to Antonius being born under the sign of Leo, keep in mind that the Roman calendar was shorter than the Julian and Gregorian calendar and could fall out of sync with the seasons and, presumably, with the normal timeframes for Zodiacal signs. It's probable that some enterprising scholar figured out the calculations for Antonius' birthday by the Gregorian calendar. That doesn't make it match with the sources, however, so his original birthdate of January 14 should be restored. Speaking of which, someone decided to make January 14 the birthdate of his son Antyllus, so that should be discussed and fixed as well.Black Sword (talk) 16:23, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
- I find it very odd that this discussion is taking place on January 14. Pelling's commentary on Plutarch's Life of Antony also goes with January 14. Cynwolfe (talk) 06:00, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
I cannot believe that the discussion of Marc Antony's birthday is based upon two items that couldn't be more superfluous: A series of emulative commentaries by modern biographers of classical Roman chroniclers, and the idea of Antony's proposed astrological sign (!!). Give academics and serious scholarship a break (!) With all due respect, this discussion resembles 60s hippies and 70s post-hippies who would probably discuss Linda Goodman's Sun Signs as serious conversation at a coffee table. The facts are that none of those commentaries which propose January 14 as Antony's birthday are conclusive or confirmed. It isn't like the established birthdates of Caesar, Pompey, Cicero, etc...January 14 is mere speculation. Weigall, in his 1931 biography, does not imply but unequivocally states that Antony was born on the day Lucius Cornelius Sulla landed at Brundisium in (Spring) 83 BC. Tracking Sulla's progression from the time of his landing at Brundisium (in Spring) to the eventual sacking of Rome on 6th July (Quintillus) 83 BC (recorded by Plutarch), narrows down the timeframe of Sulla's landing at Brundisium to the month of April 83 BC. I don't know where the proposed birthday of July 30th for Antony came from (?) I couldn't trace it to any source, so far. Arthur Weigall (in page 39 of his The Life and Times of Marc Antony) of the cited link provided in the secondary reference section, is rather detailed and probably as convincing an account to any of those "commentaries" by modern biographers who seem to be on a "crusade" to make Jan. 14 Marc Antony's birthday...LOL