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:I would support it as primary usage. Much like her daughter, [[Marie Antoinette]]. Also, we should create redirects with the Hungarian and Bohemian titles. [[User:7 Letters|Seven Letters]] 16:09, 14 July 2010 (UTC) |
:I would support it as primary usage. Much like her daughter, [[Marie Antoinette]]. Also, we should create redirects with the Hungarian and Bohemian titles. [[User:7 Letters|Seven Letters]] 16:09, 14 July 2010 (UTC) |
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:''The following discussion is an archived discussion of a [[WP:RM|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. '' |
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The result of the move request was: '''Moved''' [[User:Born2cycle|Born2cycle]] ([[User talk:Born2cycle|talk]]) 21:57, 21 September 2010 (UTC) |
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== Requested move == |
== Requested move == |
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*'''Support''' per rationales already given. The current title isn't in line with the convention and "Maria Theresa" redirects here. The proposed solution simplifies and makes clear that she is the primary topic (which she is). That itself is useful information many readers might not know. [[User:Srnec|Srnec]] ([[User talk:Srnec|talk]]) 03:26, 20 September 2010 (UTC) |
*'''Support''' per rationales already given. The current title isn't in line with the convention and "Maria Theresa" redirects here. The proposed solution simplifies and makes clear that she is the primary topic (which she is). That itself is useful information many readers might not know. [[User:Srnec|Srnec]] ([[User talk:Srnec|talk]]) 03:26, 20 September 2010 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' per [[User:Mcferran|Noel S McFerran]], and because this move brings the article name no more into [[WP:NCROY|NCROY]] compliance than the current one, which has the advantage of being both consistent with other Wiki article titles for rulers above the rank of duke and is a more common initial reference for her in writing than the proposed change. [[User:FactStraight|FactStraight]] ([[User talk:FactStraight|talk]]) 04:04, 20 September 2010 (UTC) |
*'''Oppose''' per [[User:Mcferran|Noel S McFerran]], and because this move brings the article name no more into [[WP:NCROY|NCROY]] compliance than the current one, which has the advantage of being both consistent with other Wiki article titles for rulers above the rank of duke and is a more common initial reference for her in writing than the proposed change. [[User:FactStraight|FactStraight]] ([[User talk:FactStraight|talk]]) 04:04, 20 September 2010 (UTC) |
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:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a [[WP:RM|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.</div><!-- Template:RM bottom --> |
Revision as of 21:57, 21 September 2010
Maria Theresa has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | |||||||||||||
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Current status: Good article |
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Imperial Highness
Maria Theresa did not enjoy this style as an Archduchess, and therefore I am removing it.(Jack1755 (talk) 16:50, 1 June 2009 (UTC))
- Correct. Can anyone provide a source for the claim that any of those styles were actually used? Surtsicna (talk) 16:57, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
- There wouldn't be any. The archdukes and archduchess of Austria who were issue of the archduke-kings were Royal Highnesses. They did not become Imperial Highnesses until the proclamation of the Emperordom of Austia. There was no "Holy Roman Imperial Family" to be Imperial Highnesses. The (elected) heir even was usually a king and styled Majesty. Seven Letters 18:51, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
Intellectually inferior to her sons
This article includes a few statements about Maria Theresa's intellectual prowess or the lack thereof. It would be better to have clearer references for these statements.
Thanks in advance. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 08:26, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- Thank you for your comment! The source says that Maria Theresa was "from an intellectual viewpoint, more limited than the sons" and that Joseph was "intelectually superior to Maria Theresa". It goes on to explain how she was limited and why it is understandable. The article itself mentions it in the Civil rights sections. Surtsicna (talk) 19:45, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
Pre-FAC comments from Maria
Hello, I was asked by Surtsicna to comment on this article's progress toward FAC; so sorry for the wait! Overall I think it's in okay shape, but quite a bit or re-reading and re-focusing is needed before taking on FAC. I still suggest a thorough Peer Review, with insight from several editors who are familiar with writing high-quality articles dedicated to royalty figures. Detailed comments/suggestions/questions are listed below:
- Lead
- Per WP:ITALICS, I don't think Maria Theresa's full name in the lead should be italicized. Other monarchs, such as George III of the United Kingdom (FA) and Victoria of the United Kingdom (GA) simply list the full names in normal type. Also, I don't think the German designation is correct, either, as it's not a translation.
- Maria Theresa promulgated financial and educational reforms, with the assistance of Count Friedrich Wilhelm von Haugwitz and Gottfried van Swieten, promoted commerce and the development of agriculture, and reorganised Austria's ramshackle military, all of which strengthened Austria's international standing, but refused to allow religious toleration. -- This is quite a large sentence, and it quicly switches from (seemingly) positive effects of her reign to the negative. How about cutting it in half, and maybe adding "although she... etc., she refused to allow...?"
- The lead needs better organization, and focus in each separate paragraphs. I often find writing them the hardest part of writing an entire article, so I know how difficult it is to get just right! For example, chronologically speaking, her marriage and number of children (including the most notable ones) should be introduced before the already mentioned friction/disagreements with Joseph II and his father.
- Nowhere does it say for how long she reigned; I would think that's something that should be mentioned in the first paragraph.
- She criticised and disapproved of many of Joseph's actions. She vehemently resisted the First Partition of Poland, but Joseph and her chancellor, Prince Kaunitz, induced her to authorise it. -- Sentence varying is something that needs work on throughout; careful with beginning sentences with "She" and "Maria Theresa"; as such, you can combine these sentences to do away with the double "She": "criticised and disapproved..., vehemently resisting the First Partition of Poland..." etc.
- Maria Theresa was intellectually inferior to her sons,[6] but possessed qualities appreciated in a monarch: warm heart, practical mind, firm determination, sound perception, and, most importantly, readiness to acknowledge the mental superiority of her advisers. -- This is interesting, but one must be careful with such opinions, especially in the lead. I don't see this information further in the article (correct me if I'm wrong), which poses problems per WP:LEAD; the lead section should summarize the entire article. Also, it's presenting opinion as fact; if this is paraphrasing someone, or displaying current academic thought, it should state just as much. She is considered by current scholars to have been..., or some other similar interjection, perhaps?
- Birth and background
- Maria Theresa resembled her mother and a year-younger sister, Archduchess Maria Anna. She had large blue eyes, fair hair with a slight tinge of red and a wide mouth. Her body was large and notably strong. -- Similar to my point above about opinions passed off as facts, it may be helpful to point out here where it's noted that she was strong, who remarked on her large blue eyes, etc. It's not necessary, per se, but it could give it more esteem, depending on where the info comes from. (A family member, or historian maybe?)
- The inbreeding comment makes much more sense now, thanks for the clarification. :)
- Heiress presumptive
- Charles sought the other European powers' approval. They exacted harsh terms: England demanded that Austria abolish its overseas trading company, the Ostend Company. -- This is slightly fragmentary; from what I understand here, England only gave their approval for Charles' ability to choose his own heir(s), if, in return, Austria abolish the Ostend Company. Is that right? The "harsh term" is therefore a compromise, but it's not stated for certain in the article that Charles agreed to it. Could some rewording/clarification be done here?
- On a similar note, because these events happened before Maria Theresa was born, shouldn't it go in the previous section? The article goes from her baptism, to her looks, to events four years before her birth, then back to her childhood. Kind of confusing. Also, I believe that her father's disappointment would be given more context were this information about his past dallying and deal-making made known at the beginning.
- Her spelling and punctuation were offbeat and she lacked the formal manner and speech which had characterised her Habsburg predecessors. -- "offbeat" is a strange adjective to use here, as it seems so very... contemporary. :) I'm not sure what is meant, however; unusual? Inexact?
- Marriage
- The issue of Maria Theresa's marriage was raised early in her childhood -- wording difficulty here, as the word "issue" typically signifies something specific with royalty articles, correct? Question? Subject?
- In the first paragraph here, there is an over usage of "Maria Theresa"; can a synonym be used intermittently to break things up? "young heiress" or something similarly useful and descriptive?
- news reached Vienna that he had died of smallpox, which upset Maria Theresa. -- I always love when articles like this inject some life and personality in with the royal intrigue and pomp. However, I'm left wondering, why was she upset? She hadn't even met the guy; is there a quote or testament as to how/why she was affected?
- Leopold Clement's younger brother, Francis Stephen, was invited to Vienna. -- Although it's of course implied, it really should be re-insinuated here that Francis Stephen was invited in order to secure Maria Theresa's hand in his brother's stead.
- He tended to leave the day to day administration to Maria Theresa. Unlike many princesses of her time, Maria Theresa truly loved her husband, but the marriage suffered because of his infidelity. -- So much is said, but too quickly to take it all in, I fear. Why would he leave the administration to his wife? How is it known that she loved her husband? What about this infidelity? Known mistresses? Like most of the article so far, I really feel like some direct quotes, or words/notes from those present would really help raise the encyclopedic quality of the opinions espoused. Do the sources quote letters or anything to that effect?
- In 1738, following Francis Stephen's dismissal from his military post... -- this is the first note of him having a military post. What was it?
- War of the Austrian Succession
- Francis and Maria Theresa blankly refused. -- "blankly" isn't a very descriptive adjective; as such, I'm not sure what's meant here. Adamantly?
- The thought of this worried England. -- Why?
- Francis urged Maria Theresa to reach a rapprochement with Prussia, as did England. -- Rather than italicize "rapprochement", simply link to it; it comes from the French, but per the article I don't think it should be italicized as a foreign word, since it's been appropriated by other languages.
- Seven Years War
- Frederick's invasion of Saxony in August 1756 began the Seven Years' War. Empress Maria Theresa and Kaunitz wished to exit the war with possession of Silesia. -- I'm not exactly where the transition between the previous section and this one comes into play, as almost ten years separates the two; can we have a little more context here? After the previous war, was there much discontent? (Obviously, yes, but it should be stated.) Whose decision was it to invade?
- Giving Austria huge subsidies came back to haunt France. It could not bolster defences in New France; the British easily captured Louisbourg in 1758, and went on to conquer all of New France. -- Careful with wording here, as "came back to haunt" is far too colloquial and "it" (France?) is ambigious. "France, having previously given large subsidies to Austria, could not bolster defences..." perhaps?
- Maximilian von Browne commanded the Austrian troops. -- Initially? The following sentence says he was quickly replaced.
- Frederick was startled by Lobositz; -- by the loss at Lobositz? Let's be as clear as possible here.
- France suffered a crushing defeat at Krefeld that June. French forces withdrew to the Rhine. -- France... French... repetition. The country's forces, perhaps?
- Prussia proceeded to kick the Austrians out of Saxony, -- far too colloquial. Drove them out, instead?
- exacted harsh terms on France, as it was forced to relinquish most of her American colonies. -- who is "it"? France, who is also "she"?
- Family life
- The three previous sections are decidedly very low on information regarding Maria Theresa, so this section on her family life is quite a change of direction. I think the main fault I see with the previous sections about the various wars is that they seem more like a summary of the history; rather, it should focus primarily on Maria Theresa's involvement in said history. Because this article should be dedicated to her, I suggest implementing more personal touches where applicable/available. How many of these choices during the war were hers to make? How did she feel about the crushing defeats and small victories? Quotes? While reading, try to always bring it back to her. It's similar to writing an article about an author; while discussing their works, you should always think of ways to tie it back to him/her, rather than focusing solely on the book/poem/whatever. Am I being clear?
- The first child, Maria Elisabeth (1737–1740), came a little less than a year after the wedding. Again, the child's gender caused great disappointment and so would the next two births, for the first three children born to Maria Theresa were girls, including Maria Anna, the eldest surviving child, and Maria Carolina (1740–1741). -- The wording here is confused. "came" should be "was born". "for the first three children born to Maria Theresa were girls, including" is also unnecessary, as their names alone denote the fact that they were female. I suggest cutting it to: "Again, the child's gender caused great disappointment, and so would the next two births: Maria Anna, the eldest surviving..." etc.
- Maria Theresa asserted that, had she not been almost always pregnant, she would have gone into battle herself. -- I love this! In the several quotes from her used so far, I really get a sense of her feisty nature. If there's more to be had, use them judiciously.
- Religious views and policies
- Like all members of the House of Habsburg, Maria Theresa was a Roman Catholic, and a devout one as well. -- Can this be shortened to "was a devout Roman Catholic"?
- I am not sure. Every member of the House of Habsburg was a Roman Catholic, but some were not devout Roman Catholics. For example, Mary of Hungary was accused of being too close to Lutheranism. Surtsicna (talk) 11:15, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
- Reforms
- Financially, in 1775, the budget was balanced for the first time in memory. -- In whose memory? Would "in recent history" be a better choice of phrase?
- Her decision to have her children inoculated after the epidemic of 1767 was responsible for changing Austrian physicians' negative view of inoculation -- I'm guessing the epidemic was of smallpox, as was the inoculation?
- The caption describing Maria Theresa "observing special rules to achieve a high moral tone" in the theatre, is rather random. Could her influence on the arts be included somewhere in the article itself? Also, it is spelled "theater" elsewhere.
- Death and legacy
- Her introduction of compulsory schooling, as a means of Germanisation, eventually triggered the revival of the Czech culture. -- Wouldn't this be better placed in the "Reforms" section?
- As you've probably seen, I've removed the italics from the quote boxes per WP:QUOTE. The dashes that I added to one box may be useful for all if you want to further differentiate the quote from the speaker/writer.
There's quite a bit here to work on, so I hope it helps. As I said, it's a good overview, but the prose and sometimes lack of focus makes me question whether it's quite ready for FAC. These things take time. :) Perhaps consider a prolonged PR first, with some more copy-editing throughout to ensure the prose is as professional and engaging as it should be. I made a few changes/corrections throughout, but more may be needed, as I'm not an "expert". Great work so far, though -- I enjoyed reading something so far out of my comfort zone! If you need anything else, don't hesitate to contact me on my talk page. María (habla conmigo) 18:47, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
- Thank you for all of these helpful remarks! I am in no hurry to nominate the article for FA; I just wanted to know how I can improve it. I will now be working on all of the above-mentioned problems. Surtsicna (talk) 11:15, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
Page title
I've long been uncomfortable with this page title. It neither follows the naming convention nor common sense. Effectively, it treats Maria Theresa as a consort, rather than a ruler in her own right. "of Austria" does not represent Maria Theresa's highest title, but her family name; as such this title is more like Mariana of Austria than like Ferdinand I of Austria, who held the title of Emperor of Austria, while Maria Theresa was merely an archduchess. As a ruler in her own right, Maria Theresa's highest title was Queen of Hungary - and this is what she was called in English before 1745, "the Queen of Hungary." I'd think WP:NCROY would demand that her article ought to be at Maria Theresa of Hungary. This, however, would be sort of a silly title. As such, I think this would be a very strong case for simply ignoring NCROY and going with the simpler title of simply Maria Theresa. She is certainly the principal "Maria Theresa" in history, and that already redirects here. john k (talk) 22:06, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- I completely get what you are saying. This is certainly a tricky one when you think of the guidelines. I'm not a fan of mixing territorial designations either of different ranks (Maria Theresa of Austria and Hungary (and Bohemia!)). Seven Letters 23:49, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
Here are the biographies:
- Bright, James Franck: Maria Theresa (1897)
- Oertel, William: Maria Theresa (1905)
- Maxwell Moffat, Mary: Maria Theresa (1911)
- Leland Goldsmith, Margaret: Maria Theresa of Austria (1936)
- Morris, Constance Lily: Maria Theresa: the last conservative (1937)
- Peabody Gooch, George: Maria Theresa: and other studies (1965)
- Pick, Robert: Empress Maria Theresa: the earlier years, 1717-1757 (1966)
- Tabori, Paul: Maria Theresa (1969)
- Crankshaw, Edward: Maria Theresa (1970)
- ? McGill, William J.: Maria Theresa (1972)
- Roider, Karl: Maria Theresa (1973)
- Nemes, Robert: Maria Theresa: Habsburg ruler, 1740-1780 (2001)
- Mahan, J. Alexander: Maria Theresa of Austria
The choice is obvious. Surtsicna (talk) 12:10, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
Should we do an RM? john k (talk) 15:14, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
- I would support it as primary usage. Much like her daughter, Marie Antoinette. Also, we should create redirects with the Hungarian and Bohemian titles. Seven Letters 16:09, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
- The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: Moved Born2cycle (talk) 21:57, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
Requested move
Maria Theresa of Austria → Maria Theresa — She is quite clearly the primary topic for Maria Theresa. The current title itself does not comply with NCROY, which tells us to use her highest title. Her highest title was "Queen of Hungary," not "Archduchess of Austria." NCROY would suggest, then, a title of Maria Theresa of Hungary, but this, too, would be a bad title, imo. Given that the simpler title is very clearly a primary topic and helps us avoid this issue, why not use it? john k (talk) 03:55, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
- Support, as nominator. john k (talk) 17:08, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
- Support, I see no reason not to use the simplest name.--Kotniski (talk) 12:44, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose. While there is no other Maria Theresa, there are numerous Mary Theresa and Marie Therese, and this could itself cause confusion since these are all the same name, just in different languages. Depending on the author and time period of a source, these names could be interchanged easily. Maria Theresa should be a disambiguation page that directs users to go here, but also list other women that Maria Theresa could be confused with. Also, it is not quite correct to say that the archducal title was inferior to the regal one. If anything, I think the title should be Maria Theresa of Austria, Queen of Hungary.
- Support As an extraordinary exception. Current title is not her highest title, although it is one of her ruling titles, it names her as a consort when she was also Queen and Archduchess in her own right. Seven Letters 16:33, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose Maria Theresa is not (quite) comparable to Napoleon. If there were a flower named after Napoleon, or a passing reference to him in an article on children's clothing, then he quite possibly would be called just "Napoleon". The same is not true of Maria Theresa. She would be referred to as "Maria Theresa of Austria" or the "Holy Roman Empress Maria Theresa" or something similar. Since I am not an advocate of "maiden names", I would prefer "Maria Theresa, Holy Roman Empress". Noel S McFerran (talk) 13:53, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
- There is the Maria Theresa thaler, there are Maria Theresa chandeliers, etc. Seven Letters 16:44, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
- Sigh. Nothing will ever get moved, will it? We're stuck with whatever titles got set 6 or 7 years ago, and no move of any kind will ever get any consensus. john k (talk) 16:39, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
- Vote on your own RM. Although it is implied, say it again down here. Seven Letters 16:42, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
- The goal is not to move articles - nor to stop articles from being moved. There are lots of articles which get moved (including ones about royals), and lots which don't. I do think that some people might concentrate more on improving the content of articles, rather than spending so much time suggesting moves. Noel S McFerran (talk) 20:58, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
- Well, I'm glad to hear you think that. I tend to think that it's not really any of my business to worry about what other people choose to spend their time on wikipedia doing. We're all here, giving our time for free, and if I want to spend some of that time trying to get articles moved, I don't see how that gives other people the right to make disdainful comments about it. And this applies whether you are referring to me specifically or not. john k (talk) 21:40, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
- Support per rationales already given. The current title isn't in line with the convention and "Maria Theresa" redirects here. The proposed solution simplifies and makes clear that she is the primary topic (which she is). That itself is useful information many readers might not know. Srnec (talk) 03:26, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose per Noel S McFerran, and because this move brings the article name no more into NCROY compliance than the current one, which has the advantage of being both consistent with other Wiki article titles for rulers above the rank of duke and is a more common initial reference for her in writing than the proposed change. FactStraight (talk) 04:04, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.