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:I'm warning you, you tend to break 3RR, and I won't let you. Don't ever blank rv again in the middle of my edits that's just childish. Firstly it seems lack of common cortesy on your part; seconly, blanking it's lazy, inconsiderated (thus you're being twice as rude) and againt the policies (or recomended behavior, whatever). |
:I'm warning you, you tend to break 3RR, and I won't let you. Don't ever blank rv again in the middle of my edits that's just childish. Firstly it seems lack of common cortesy on your part; seconly, blanking it's lazy, inconsiderated (thus you're being twice as rude) and againt the policies (or recomended behavior, whatever). |
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--[[User:20-dude|20-dude]] ([[User talk:20-dude|talk]]) 04:23, 18 March 2008 (UTC) |
--[[User:20-dude|20-dude]] ([[User talk:20-dude|talk]]) 04:23, 18 March 2008 (UTC) |
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::I gave you pretty specific reasons for everything in that series of edits that you messed up. Read it again. I'll cite counterpoints when you've done a more nearly tolerable job of telling us what your sources claim. But I don't see how you can think he's not phi-happy after I pointed out what he said about the Egyptians. It seems clear that you are in the same boat, which is why you will need constant back-pressure to prevent the spew of so much of this garbage into our encyclopedia. But please, slow down, look at how we edit things to be sensible, and try to learn to do it yourself so we don't have to clean up after you so much. [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 04:44, 18 March 2008 (UTC) |
Revision as of 04:44, 18 March 2008
I hate that this sandbox has to be placed in my user page. If somebody knows how to make it as public as any article, please let me know. Meanwhile, just imagine it is just as any other article and feel fre to modify it as much as necesary.--20-dude (talk) 20:04, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Stuff to be added
Stuff I'm missing: the Porch of Maidens in the acropolis, Apolon statue, The Meallion of Saint Benedict (I can't we don't have this article, 4goshsake!!! shame on the humanity!) , the self portrait of Leonardo da vinci, the Crucifixion (painting), Renbrandt's self portrait, Albrecht Dürer's self portrit, La Parade, several works of Mies Van der Rohe, some stone henge like structures, various paintings of mondrian, and I still have to check out the work of Vitruvius (after all there is some reason they aclled it Vitruvian man), the work of acient mayas and other pre-hispanic cultures. I'm also sure I read something about asian works, I have to find out the properties of the ken.--20-dude (talk) 09:22, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
- The work of Villard de Honnecourt
- es:Cristo crucificado (Velázquez) Cristo Crucificado
- Beating of infants, by raphael
The plan
For those interested in knowing the plan I figured, it could go as follows: I'll create a sandbox somewhere related to the golden section (any ideas where?), indicate sources for each listed item, move the sandbox into a list article, write the sourced information that explain their geometric properties, copy/move the sourced info to the articles of each item, categorize them as "Artistic works designed with golden ratio" (ideas for a possible sharper name will be beforehand requested in the talk page of the list) and that's it. Of course, we are talking about a very sourced, published, limited group of artistic items.--20-dude (talk) 23:31, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Double sources
There are many references that work at many points in the article. How do I use named referendes?--20-dude (talk) 22:56, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Edificio Barolo
source Avenida de Mayo 1370
El Palacio Barolo fue construido por el arquitecto italiano Mario Palanti para Luis Barolo, un poderoso empresario textil. Inaugurado en 1923, fue el edificio más alto de la ciudad de Buenos Aires hasta la construcción del Kavanagh en 1935. Cada piso tiene un diseño distinto y la cúpula central está a la altura de un piso 24. Desde hace muchos años, es un edificio de oficinas. En su cúpula hay un faro de 300.000 bujías que se usaba para difundir noticias. Palanti era un estudioso del Dante Alighieri; el edificio, de estilo neogótico romántico, está lleno de analogías y referencias a la Divina Comedia. La planta del edificio está construida en base a la sección áurea y al número de oro. Como la Comedia, el Palacio está dividido en tres partes: Infierno, Purgatorio y Cielo. El faro representa los nueve coros angelicales. Sobre el faro está la constelación de la Cruz del Sur, que se ve alineada con el eje del Barolo en los primeros días de junio a las 19:45. La altura del edificio es de cien metros y cien son los cantos de la Divina Comedia. El Palacio Salvo, en Montevideo, es hermano gemelo del Barolo.
Temple of Jerusalem
This page ties the Temple to φ12 (one phy factor for each of the 12 tribus). But I'm not sure about its references and wich version of the temple is it talking about.--20-dude (talk) 23:56, 10 March 2008 (UTC) The actually worthy point of Noah's Ark here is its building instructions in the Genesis and not the still mythological objet per se which could have never actually existed and it still wouldn't matter. To ilustrate my point better think of the plan of st. gall: there is no actual monastery, it was never built, but what's worth here is the instructions.--20-dude (talk) 02:05, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Dividing the list
I'm thinking of dividing the list in two parts. The first with the works explicitly designed with golden proportions, like:
- Great Pyramid of Giza, Acropolis, Parthenon, The Porch of the Caryatids (On the south side of the Erechtheum), Phidias' sculptures, Saint Benedict Medal, Plan of Saint Gall, Cathedral of Chartres, Cathedral of Notre-Dame in Laon, Notre Dame de Paris, De divina proportione, Vitruvian Man, Leonardo da Vinci's self portrait, Mona Lisa, The Last Supper, The Holy Family (painting), David, Mexico City Metropolitan Cathedral, Cristo Crucificado, The Roses of Heliogabalus, Une Baignade, Asnières, Palacio Barolo, Palacio Salvo, The Sacrament of the Last Supper, Farnsworth House, Villa Stein, Villa Savoye, Unité d'Habitation, United Nations Headquarters
...and works that have golden proportions, have been studied by academic or *recognized* (be careful) researchers in the field, but their authors didn't leave evidence that they gave them these properties methodically or on purpose:
- Stonehenge, Pyramid of Djoser, Khesi-Ra's tomb, The instructions for Noah's Ark in the Genesis 6:15, Ark of the Covenant, Venus de Milo and the 5th. Symphony.
--20-dude (talk) 02:37, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
- deletion of the arks
Well that's it. I had it sourced. Authors are making the connection, it's all googable, but this is the second time somebody complains about the arks. To me 3:5 is just about right if we're talking about written instructions, but whatever. Here is the text with it's sourcing, just in case somebody can provide a better sourcing or connection.
Some author believe that the instructions that for Noah's Ark in the Genesis 6:15 (the earliest retelling text is from XVII BC), explained in the text by God to Noah, are realted to the divine proportion[1] God's instructions indicate: three hundred cubits length, fifty cubits breadth and thirty cubits height. This design inscribes the frontal section plan of the ark in a 5:3 rectangle, that's a 0.666 coeficient of proportion. [2] [3] Three and five are the second and third numbers in the Fibonacci series in which the limit coeficient (as numbers go higher) is 0.618... or phi.
Actual evidence of the ark has not been found, so it is still a myth. However, being the earliest retelling text of the story is from XVII BC, and taking in consideration that Noah was sedentary, and the earliest city (or evidence of a sedentary community) in history is Jericho, located in the palestine zone and founded around 9000 BC, the construction of the mythological object could have happened at any point in between. One of the greater floods, for instance, is believed to have happened around 5600 BC (the Ryan-Pitman Theory), also, a historical tsunami caused by the Thera eruption happened around 1630-1600 BC [4]
Ark of the Covenant (Built around 1050 BC, after the people of Isralel left Egipt, during the reign of Ramses II; lost after the Babilonians destroyed Jerusalem) is believed to held the proportion [5] with almost the principle as Noah's Ark, (which is proportianally like ten Arks of the Covenant put together), according to the Exodus, it God told Moises to make it 1.5 cubics tall and wide and 2.5 cubics long (about 130 cm x 78 cm x 78 cm or 4.29 x 2.57 x 2.57 feet, for Egyptian royal cubit was most likely used). 2.5 x 1.5 is 5:3, as Noah's ark section.
- ^ LIVIO, Mario. The Golden Ratio: The Story of Phi, the World's Most Astonishing Number. Broadway Books. Published 2002. ISBN 0767908163. Page 53
- ^ Noah's Ark, 24,000 deadweight tons, C & AH, Volume XIV, Part 1, January 1992.
- ^ Fasold, David. The Ark of Noah Wynwood Press, New York, NY, 1988.
- ^ Castleden, Rodney (2001) "Atlantis Destroyed" (Routledge)
- ^ HEMENWAY, Priya.Divine Proportion: Phi In Art, Nature, and Science. Sterling Publishing. 2005.
The temple of Salomon is olso believed to be designated with golden proportions by some authors.[1]
The Colors of the Tabernacle.
NOTE: If the connection was used and some point and it has been proven wrong, it is still worth mentioning, with more enphasis on the "proven wrong" part, of course. That means that there was publicated hipothesis that was then proven wrong in subsecuent publications. --20-dude (talk) 07:50, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
- 3:5 is not the golden ratio, and there's nowhere any suggestin that this ratio is motivated by Fibonacci numbers. If you want to make an article listing things designed with small-integer ratios, or ratios of consecutive Fibonacci numbers, that would be different. As to sources for that list of things in the Universal Principles... book, you went way beyond what the book said by including them in this list. Dicklyon (talk) 06:14, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
stuff removed, and citations needed
The cited source (here) does support that any of the ancient things mentioned was designed according to the golden ratio. If you want to mention them for "exhibiting" the golden ratio, you need to be clear on whose observation you are reporting; correct words and correct source to verify might make inclusion of these things OK. Dicklyon (talk) 00:19, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
- mmm... that sounds right. Which source is the one you don't like, I have to take a second look at it. I thik it does. However, Partenon, Stonehenge and Giza are sure as hell verifiable things. I think that with a {{fact}} tag would be more than enough. Khesi-Ra migh be tricky and that's another ticket. To be honest I'd like to make some sort of public (for editors) but not publicated /sandbox for everybody to contribute with that and a couple of other samples that would be interesting to confirm from good sources, but perhabs it's not in the best interest of this article to exhibit yet (especifically, the genesis and exodus texts, khesi-ra, djoser and the temple of salomon).--20-dude (talk) 04:24, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
- citations needed indeed. I'm plenty aware. And the article won't be left without them. But it is just in an "embrionary state" (maybe we should make a category of the sort: as in stubs, embrions, ctations needed, -regular articles-, and featured articles). I also have the stress that I think it wouldn't be right to do it all myself: It would look bad. I think I need constance rather than brute volume in order to aloud everyone to contribute and make this article much richer in terms or encyclopedic, sourced, verifiable, quality investigation. Erasing obvious stuff isn't the way to go. We could go crazy erasing stuff stating "Colombus discovered America" that happens to be unsourced unsurced (that's why we have the cn template for!)--20-dude (talk) 04:44, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
- If you add disputed material to Wikipedia, you must cite your sources when you add it. Otherwise, Wikipedia risks publishing misinformation. PLEASE spend some more time learning Wikipedia's policies and standards. People here are trying to help you. Please accept our help. Finell (Talk) 06:03, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
- You have indeed been helpful. I have never denied so and you know I encourage and appreciate your kind and useful help. But I don't see how erasing stuff that is intrinsecally related to the relation amomng phi and arts can help (that wasn't you, of course). As you know, the Parthenon and Phidias are basic, duh-obvious, examples. (then again, nobody argues that citations are needed). By the way, I'm not a rookie. I'm a returning wikipedian that was absent three or so years. Not that reading again policies would hurt, but I aready do that on a regular basis. It's just that you're always going to see what you want to see in the policies because of their oversensitive ambiguous tone. However, If you read my post again, you'll see that I'm all pro-sources, It's just that you seem to expect Rome (or the Parthenon in this case, :)) to be build in one day by one person. You also like sourcing and you also like the theme and know a great deal about it, I think you could also add some sourcing and we'd also be even more thankful to you.--20-dude (talk) 08:30, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
- Removing stuff helps by getting rid of unverifiable and incorrect information, and by motivating the finding and citation of sources for disputed information. Why won't you tell us your sources? Is it perhaps because you're writing off the top of your head, and don't actually have any sources? Did you actually read the source you had cited before for all those places you listed? It did not claim they were designed according to the golden ratio; if you want to list them, make it clear what the source supports, and don't go beyond it. We've been over all this 2 years ago in the main article, which is why we may be more impatient than usual with a well-meaning newbie editor. Dicklyon (talk) 11:11, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
- There is nothing "duh" about about the Parthenon or Phidias. Of course, lots of claims are made about them and the golden ratio, but the analyses are not conclusive. I've explained the dispute concerning the Parthenon in another post (concerning the project logo, I think). Personally, as I said, I find the case for the Parthenon fairly persuasive, but others don't and it certainly cannot be presented as settled fact. When dealing with human or other irregular figures, as with Phidias's sculptures or Leonardo's figure paintings and drawings, the analysis becomes much more subjective because, after the fact, people can superimpose golden rectangles almost anywhere, of any size at any angle, and say, "See, golden ratio proportions!" I've read about 6-8 books devoted to the golden ratio, and a few dozen shorter works (entries in books or reference works, journal articles, Web pages, etc.); Jossi and Dicklyon and perhaps others who have worked on these articles have also read extensively. So it is not as though you are bringing enlightenment to the unread or uncaring. Also the heading of your first messages to me and to others, "Golden emergency", understandably provoked skepticism: What "emergency"? Finell (Talk) 19:07, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
- You take things to literal, of course it is not that much of an emergency.
- Your commentd denotes perhaps you need to read certain "claims" a second time. You always seem to come from the math angle, Mark Barr is perhaps the most prominent of those "claims" about φ-dias. But you know what, it's my mistake, perhaps you know more than Mark Barr.
- The parthenon on the other hand, is the most studied example of Golden Ratio, the impresive amount of vertexes, border lines, limits and arists of its volume and composing elements perfectly coincide with the regulating lines that come from the golden section of the global volumetry. In this case, we're not talking about perception but about clear undeniable matching.
- I have have also studied the matter for years.
- By the way the Phidias claim is also in the Golden ratio article, why don't you erase it there? Actually, you know what... done... I'm using the same source, so the "claim" can't possibly be coherently bothered ("as if"... we all know it has been nonsense all along).--20-dude (talk) 04:15, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
- I think we were pretty happy with how that article represents Barr's contributions and claims; it's well stated and well sourced. Use it as a source of examples of the right way to do things. And please don't resort to personal sarcastic remarks like "perhaps you know more," as they do not promote progress toward what we are all trying to achieve together here. Dicklyon (talk) 14:22, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
- Nice attacks Dickylon, you live up to your nick. You really make this a pleasant constructive experience. "Newby", thanks for the condescendence, I appreciate that. Some might think it was a plain pejorative expression but not me. By the way. "veteran":
- Certainly no attack was intended; "newby" is a fairly objective term for someone who hasn't yet learned how to be a constructive part of the wikiepedia community; we're trying to help you get through that phase, while protecting good content from dilution by unsourced hearsay. Dicklyon (talk) 14:22, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Any edit lacking a reliable source may be removed, but editors may object if you remove material without giving them a chance to provide references. If you want to request a source for an unsourced statement, consider moving it to the talk page. Alternatively, you may tag a sentence by adding the {{fact}} template, a section with {{unreferencedsection}}, or the article with {{refimprove}} or {{unreferenced}}. Use the edit summary to give an explanation of your edit. You may also leave a note on the talk page or an invisible HTML comment on the article page. Do not leave unsourced information in articles for too long, or at all in the case of information about living persons.
- -WP:SOURCE
- And you're more than aware than Phidias or the Parthenon is not an "I heard it somewhere situation". I'm sorry about not owning a personal library with all the books on earth like you apparently do, it's all my fault. You're right about needing sources. However, you do know you are the opposite of constructive, you are doing it on purpose. Psychological transference of frustration, perhaps?... I'm not claiming this is a perfect article ready to be featured, it's by far just under construction, and a tag should state so. Rome wasn't built in one day. I don't see you sculpting rocks either. Again, that why the --fact-- templates are for. If you don't care to research, limit yourself to use them. If wikipedia’s policy was to erase everything. I'm sorry for my obnoxious tone, I can't help it, you've caused me a great deal of frustration, and it's not like you can't get the same results(getting the sources) with a more constructive method. We want the exact same for this article, only I'm working hard while you're destroying with little effort, and that's frustrating.--20-dude (talk) 04:42, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
- OK, good progress; we now have sources and sensible statements for the Parthenon and Phideas. I've gone ahead and removed a couple of other sections for which no sources have been forthcoming and for which the linked articles have no mention of divine or golden. I'm sure you'll be able to find sources for some, and then can put them back; like the pyramid at Giza (you can copy some content and sources from the main golden ratio article, or find your own). But you can't just list them as if they were designed with the golden ratio; you have to attribute that claim to somebody. Dicklyon (talk) 14:16, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
- Dear Dude: Dicklyon can be abrasive at times, and I would prefer that he weren't, as I have told him more than once. However, YOU are not the one to complain. Look at your insulting edit summaries and Talk page posts. YOU wrote to Dicklyon: "rv. what? are you just reading about golden ratio for the first time in your life?" Hardly! What have you read on the subject? Please give us a list, before you accuse everyone else of ignorance. Based on what you have contributed to Wikipedia on the golden ratio thus far, you are the one whose knowledge of this subject is limited and shallow. No one said you have to own a large library to become knowledgeable, but that does not stop you from doing research in public or academic libraries like the rest of us have. I have tried to be patient and understanding with you and to give you some guidance about how this community operates. Now I will be frank: You have a lot to learn. You need to change your attitude and your behavior if you wish to contribute constructively to Wikipedia; otherwise you will continue to meet frustration. Learn to collaborate. Stop being so combative and try to accept what others say. Newbie is not an insult (see WP:BITE), but you certainly act like one. Compared to the Wikipedians that you are constantly tangling with, your experience on Wikipedia is minimal; again that is not an insult, but it is a fact. Stop your amateur psychoanalysis of those who disagree with some of your actions, and stop ascribing hidden motives to others. Stop apologizing for your obnoxious tone: change it! This community has standards. Learn them, and try to follow them. Finell (Talk) 20:09, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
- Finell: The fact that some people don't apologize for being rude, doesn't mean they are not. I apologize when I need to make a point that might perhaps be too strong. My analysis is by far, very amateur. Whether I'm a newby or not, it doesn't matter, the fact is that Dicklyon's tone was peyorative and condescending. You for instance, never fall in talking in a peyorative tone, but sometimes can be too condesending and somewhat negative and cold (the last too are kinda up to how do you want to be perceived). My tone is not brilliant at all either, specially when I feel cornered and situations are frustrating.--20-dude (talk) 23:44, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Proposed move (change of title)
So far as I am aware, there is no literature on the conscious use of the golden ratio as a design principle until the Renaissance. Therefore, I propose that the article be moved to (i.e., renamed) List of works with golden ratio proportions. There will still be some disputes about which works belong on the list, but at least the standard for inclusion will be more objective, and we can avoid post hoc reasoning. Comments, anyone? Finell (Talk) 20:21, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
- Fine by me. I think it's safe to say it is all up to you. Just take in consideration that I put the word designed to avoid having to list matchboxes, book covers, etc. I say it's your call.--20-dude (talk) 23:49, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
- OK, maybe sarcasm isn't my sharpest rhetorical tool, but the point is serious. It would be useful to know what Dude believes, if he sees an important distinction between ancient and modern things that exhibit the golden ratio. There are those who believe in extraterrestrials as the explanation for how ancient structures came to exhibit mathematical relationships beyond what could have been done by human cultures of the time; I wasn't seriously proposing that he is one of those, but who knows? Dicklyon (talk) 19:34, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
- Dude: Are you saying that "matchboxes, book covers," and we might as well throw in credit cards, are not "designed"?? Industrial designers make a career of designing manufactured artifacts. The design of book covers, and books, is an art with a long history. In a comment elsewhere you said that you do not take yourself, and we should not take you, seriously. However that may be, please do be serious about what you contribute to Wikipedia (including its Talk pages), because Wikipedia is a serious project and because unthoughtful contributions (even on Talk pages) waste other people's valuable time. Thanks. Finell (Talk) 18:41, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
With the recent changes in format and the inclusion of substantial text, this isn't a list anymore. So how about Works with golden ratio proportions? On the other hand, is there anything that would belong in this article that either isn't or shouldn't be in the Golden ratio article? That is, is there a reason for this page to exist? Even it this page is deleted as redundant, the work on it would not be lost because in can be used to improve the Golden ratio article. Finell (Talk) 18:57, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
- I don't see much point in this page, but it's OK with me if we leave it, moved or otherwise. Taking designed out of the title does leave it open to a lot more junk like credit cards and matchboxes and every other place that someone sights a near golden ratio. It does have a few more items that could go into golden ratio, including some in the false sightings section. On the other hand, if we restrain ourselves to only reporting the published observations of others, we can say who thinks the golden ratio might be relevant to what, and that should be OK. Like this book that talks about credit cards and the UN building. Dicklyon (talk) 19:00, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
- I certainly didn't want to invite junk; please don't put me in that category. Where a human-made work closely approximates the golden ratio, there are 3 possible explanations: (1) it was purposely proportioned according to the golden ratio (if the design history is not documented, attribution of intention depends on analysis of the design itself in conjunction with whatever other known facts bear on the question); (2) an artist's sense of proportion resulted in golden ratio proportions without deliberate measurement or calculation; (3) pure coincidence. In my opinion, both 1 and 2 are relevant to the golden ratio as an aesthetic principle; 3 is the least likely reason, since we are speaking only about deliberately designed works. Finell (Talk) 19:50, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
Reverts
This is the second time I prove Dicklylon support his erasings against procedure in an odd way:
- He said that "Rhetorical Prototypes in Architecture: Measuring the Acropolis", didn't propose the acropolis as an item using Golden Ratio... Not only you can read the book online stating so, but wikipedia already had the source statign the very same in two other articles.
- Likewise Divine Proportion: Phi In Art, Nature, and Science. supports the work of Phidias. The source is still being used to prove the same in the Golden ratio article and it's not that easy to believe he didn't know.
- Now I just proved the same with Universal Principles of Design [1]
Each case was reverted 2 or 3 times by Dicklyon, consider this a 3RR warning.--20-dude (talk) 01:01, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
- If I removed things that were sourced, I apologize. I've just now done a ton of work to say what I can find in sources about a lot of your items that didn't give a clear picture of what the sources said. I hope you can see from this work what I've been trying to get out of you. That is, tell us what the sources claim; don't just make claims and list sources that don't quite say what you're saying. For example, p.96 of the book you link above merely lists a bunch of things as "exhibiting" the golden ratio, which is something that you can attribute to that author; he certainly doesn't claim that they were designed according to the golden ratio, and it is widely known that they could not have been, according to scholars of mathematics. So, as I've been saying, tell us your sources, and tell us what they say, and don't go beyond that. Dicklyon (talk) 03:27, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
- On review, I see that I did remove the Greece bit that was sourced to "Rhetorical Prototypes..."; sorry about that. Now, it would be great if you would also let us know exactly what that source says; but as you say it's the same as in golden ratio, so maybe it's not you who had read it and contributed that statement. Anyway, sorry again, I over-generalized the lack of sourcing to the whole section when I should not have. When Finell put it back with just the sourced bits, it was much easier to build on. Dicklyon (talk) 03:48, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
- I've gone ahead and removed a bunch more things from other sections. Dude, keep track of them, and don't rush; there's really no need to have them in the article unless you have sources, and if you have sources you can add them. No rush. Dicklyon (talk) 03:56, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
- Congratulations on your later edits, we finally agree on the way to go. It's not my style but I can totally respect that work. I didn't like when you limited the prench Gothic buildings to Chaflon olmos. Universal Principles of Design [2] also supports (and Im sure several more sources) "his" alegations. Same with Barolo, I used the government page, but there are many more, you also accidentally erased the Montevideo building, if the same source states so, there is no real good reason for that.
- I think you finally got my way of thinking and you spotted the flaw. You're right there is no rush. However I'd like to have a list of items to research. I think all the weird not sourced items to the Wiki:project as a task. With the results, we could then decide whether the item does not fit at all in this list, fits as something that has been asociated or fits as something explicitly designed with golden ratio, like the works of Le Corbusier. --20-dude (talk) 09:46, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
you would also let us know exactly what that source says; but as you say it's the same as in golden ratio, so maybe it's not you who had read it and contributed that statement.
I think this is the third time I put this link go to page 96 It works for Parthenon, Giza, Chartres and Stonehenge. By the way, it would be wrong to claim that Chaflon pointed aout any of those buildings have golden ration. For instance, the analisis of the Catedral de Mexico was done by Jose Villagran Garcia (lets over simplify him by saying he is a Mexican, more theoric, Le Corbusier), and the others were also taken from some m. lund (I don't have the bibliography of Chaflon book, only the parts that interested me the most, but the point is still there... Actually I should go get the entire book, I remember it is a grat source for sources for researching.--20-dude (talk) 09:56, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
- See, this is why we want you to tell us what your sources say. I made the wrong repair of your work re Chaflon, since I don't have it. And you've again asserted that the "Universal Principles..." book supports something, but you don't say what (please review what I wrote about that and see if you agree).
Thanks for the apology, man... I have also put you in an uncomfortable situation and i apologize about that. I know you also mean well, but I should have told you so more often. Sorry about going to the A Notice board, I'll now tell them you changed your editing style and everything seems ok now.--20-dude (talk) 10:02, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
- Don't worry about my comfort; just work on getting the article right. Dicklyon (talk) 15:00, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
Chaflon takes the images of gothic buildings from this guy: Frederik Macody Lund, who studied the geometry of several gothic buildings.--20-dude (talk) 10:15, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
- So write that up. Attribution to the guy making the claim is what's key; exceptional claims need exceptional sources. We can't have statements of people designing according to golden ratio before that concept was popularized to artists and architects by Pacioli unless we put them in terms of who says so, and preferably even why they say so; obviously, it's all empirical, with no direct evidence of design involvement, and even the empirical stuff is quite a stretch, and many scholars have repeatedly pointed out. Dicklyon (talk) 15:00, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
- I agree. I see what you mean. We need to explain how the source relates to the item. I didn't want to elaborate too much on Chaflon's writing because:
- a) It's in Spanish, and as per WP:SOURCE, it makes it hard to verify for those that does't speak it.
- b) He isn't the primary source in 90% of his samples (the other 10% are clearly specified as so, like El Cristo de Velazquez).
- c) It'd be better to elaborate on his sources and not him (Frederik Macody Lund, Jose Villagran . But I don't have his bibliografy, just part of a chapter.
- I only included the reference because I planned to include his imagery since the beginning and as graphic material it's very ok according to wikipedia's guidelines (WP:SOURCE). In conclusion, I need to find a copy of the entire book, and specify how each source link the item to the golden ratio.
- As for the Gothic structures, they were designed with golden ratio. That's why that period is part of the dark eras or obscurantism, all of the technological advances were handled and kept secret by the church. The architects of the Gothic churches are rarely known. Besises, each period has a different way to aproach golden ratio. The use of arabic numerals was only popular in Europe after Fibonacci wrote about them in 1202. The metric system and the use of the decimal point was "invented" by the Flemish mathematician Simon Stevin in a small pamphlet called De Thiende ("the tenth") published in 1586. In consecuence, the greeks, the medieval church, the reinassance men, the egiptians and le corbusier had all different methods to approach the golden ratio. Even in the reinassance, the most common method to built was the use on strings as "flexometer" (which they didn't have).--20-dude (talk) 21:17, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
- Course, that's why in the end I like working with people going against my edits: you make me sustent everyting. For instance, to state the above comment about measures in the article i'd have to research matila Ghykas's work, who acording to es:Carlos Mijares Bracho (told me in person, so it's unquotable and impossible to mention, of course), links the measurement issues to the use golden section. That's why many authors have problems linking pre-reinassance works to those proportions. Besides, by definition the reinassance takes its main influence from the greeks and romans from a catholic perspective.
- According to Ghyka, to analyse those works we can't rely on our current measurement systems or the 0.618... coeficient (which in the end will will be there), but rather use pure geometry like those early artist did. I'm seriously thinking of hiring a mathematician to teach me how to do it.--20-dude (talk) 23:13, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
- I took the impresionism examples directly from the Golden ratio article. --20-dude (talk) 23:16, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
Carlos Chanfon Olmos, isn't as obscure as I thought. He is very googable, he is considered a big authority in architecture and his books are available in amazon. He has strong ties to Jose Villagran. --20-dude (talk) 00:17, 17 March 2008 (UTC). Some additional info might come from checking if a copy of the dictated course "Los trazos reguladores de la proporción arquitectónica", by Villagran in 1969; is actually be available in English (which is very possible taking in consideration even Chafon Olmos has been translated.--20-dude (talk) 00:25, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
- Googable ≠ reliable, by a long shot. Exactly what are his academic and other qualifications? By whom is he considered "a big authority in architecture"? What else has he published? Where is there an authoritative biography of him? Where does the book's publisher rank on a quality scale from Vantage Press to Oxford University Press? Everything is on sale through Amazon.com, so that means nothing. On the other hand, you can look up what libraries have copies of the book; holdings in prominent university libraries would be some indication of notability. Finell (Talk) 01:28, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Who is aguing about the meaning of googable? I'm juts saying so as a relative reference, which is way better than non googable by a long shot. Af the reference states itself, Chanfon's writtings are published by Universidad Nacional Autonoma de Mexico, that's more than enough in terms of academic value. However if you want to know more, he was:
born in Mexico City in the year 1928. After studying classical languages and philosophy, he obtained his bachelor’s degree in architecture from the National Autonomous University of Mexico (UNAM). He began to work at Ricardo Robina’s office when he was still a student, from 1953 to 1956. Later, as a professional in his private practice, he won a bidding to design and build the dining and kitchen areas of the Instituto Francés de la Laguna, in Gómez Palacio, Durango. He completed this project between 1957 and 1960. He also built several houses and residences in Mexico City.
He gained considerable field experience by working at the Salvador Guerrero y Alonso company, during which time he built several hospitals in various states of Mexico, including the Farms for the Mentally Ill in Villahermosa, Tabasco (1961), and in Reyes Mantecón, Oaxaca (1962); Durango’s Regional Hospital (1963); a health care centre in Pátzcuaro (1964), among others.
In 1965, he founded the Teca S.A. company, with which, together with his associates, he built Tijuana’s InternationalAirport, between 1965 and 1967; the Autopsy Section and the Dining Area of the Institute of Livestock Research, in Palo Alto, Mexico City, in 1967; the residence of Mr Rodolfo Choperena, located on Paseo de la Reforma, between 1965 and 1967. In 1968, he took up his post as Director of Historical Monuments at INAH. In those days, he led restoration and maintenance projects at the grand Conventos Mendicantes built in the 16th century, such as Alcoman, Actopan, Epazoyucan, Tlaxcala, Cuauhtinchan, Huexotzingo or Churubusco, in addition to organizing and leading important projects aimed at rescuing the gypsum kilns of Tlacochahuaya, Oaxaca; the façade of San Felipe Neri el Nuevo, in Mexico City; Cortés’s Castle-Palace, in Cuernavaca, Morelos; and he also led the first stage of the National Palace project. In 1974, he was appointed as Director of the Churubusco Centre, a centre engaged in research and restoration, including training intended for restorers, sponsored by the Mexican Government, UNESCO and OAE.
During his tenure, he organized and led groups of students and professors with the aim of rescuing Cacaxtla’s Murals, and those of Xoxoteco’s Chapel, and also with the aim of restoring the Ánimas de Cristobal de Villalpando work of art, in Tuxpan, Michoacán; the 7000 objects found in the excavations of the Templo Mayor, a restoration project of which he was the director. As a consultant working for UNESCO and OAE, he has participated in several missions to various countries of the American Continent, such as Santo Domingo, Colombia, Peru, Venezuela, Guatemala, Jamaica, Cuba, the United States and Canada, where he has collaborated as consultant in restoration projects and programmes intended to train museographers and restorers.
He has been a professor at UNAM since 1953, teaching courses such as descriptive geometry, stereotomy, history of architecture, and theory of monument restoration. He has also been a guest professor at several universities in other countries and Mexican states. Today, he is a corresponding member of Madrid’s Royal San Fernando Academy; member of the National Architecture Academy and the Mexican Architecture Academy; member of Mexico’s National System of Researchers (1985), where he has recorded more than 150 publications including books, articles and learning packages used in the courses given by him. He has been a full-time professor since 1985, and the coordinator of doctorate courses given by the Faculty of Architecture. His current research focuses on Mexican architecture and urbanism in the 16th century, as well as literature on architecture.
He is also an Emeritus Professor at the University of Guanajuato (1987) and UNAM (1989). In 1990, he was awarded the UNAM Prize for Architecture and Design. He has been a member of UNAM’s Governing Board since 1990. In 1995, the MexicanArchitectureAcademy declared him Emeritus Member, and presented him with the Annual Architecture Award.
® Derechos Reservados 2006. Consorcio de Universidades Mexicanas.
Quite a life--20-dude (talk) 01:46, 17 March 2008 (UTC) And you know I meant that sort of curriculum by calling him "authority", from the beginnig. Besides, this is the talk page, not the article. I'm just throwing info for further researches. Jeez. His work is kept in paris along many writings about Vilard honecourt, but I'd need to go back fing the link and I don't think it'd be of some use other than proving you wrong--20-dude (talk) 02:11, 17 March 2008 (UTC) Then again, it's a pleasure to prove people wrong so: Paris: Bibliothèque Nationale MS Français 19093. Villard de Honnecourt. Wilars de Honecort: Su manuscrito. Carlos Chanfón Olmos. Mexico, D.F.: Universidad Nacional Autonoma de Mexico, Facultad de Arquitectura, 1994. Davis Library: NA350 .C47 1994. Old French. Paraphrasing a TV character, imagine the big ben bells: wrong,wrong,wrong,wrong (going higher) wrong,wrong,wrong,wrong (going lower) yourewrong, yourewrong.--20-dude (talk) 02:19, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
- Dude, you need to adjust your attitude and your edits; you're making yourself overly obnoxious with your personalization of the issues. Dicklyon (talk) 05:06, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
- You're right. However, my point should have been, lets start over with our tones. For instance, you really have to stop assuming I'm unfamiliar with the policies of wikipedia and that I don't know my sources. Read finell's previous comment, that's now way to talk to a fellow wikipedian either. The correct way to go would be just asking "why is he considered an authority" instead of just assuming otherwise with a tone that's is probably a bad choice of words but ends up sounding arrogant and underestimating, it's unpleasant and antagonist. Besides, that was like the fifth time I prove somebody wrong about my sources, and I getting tired of it. Despite so, in the end you're right, an eye for an eye only left blind people. Maybe I was blowing some steem, maybe it wast just my psychological transference of frustration, hehe, who knows, right? I'm sorry anyway.--20-dude (talk) 06:53, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Chichen Itza and other interior designs
Dude, you don't have to violate image copyrights to reference books; try this way. This particular book is obviously phi-happy, and doesn't provide a shred of a reason to believe his assertions, but if you're going to write that it "has golden proportions in its interior" then you have to mention in that sentence who is making that outrageous claim. I'd rather you not use this flaky book at all, but if you're going to talk about common Egyptian objects, give a more balanced reading of what he actually said; you could even quote his absurd statement that it seems certain they knew about phi, to clarify that he is disconnected from scholarly thought. And if you like the page on the Bangkok Royal Palace, read it again and see that you followed the flow of text wrong and make up a complete fabrication out of those pages. Give us a break. Dicklyon (talk) 02:46, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
- Have you ever tried to desing using phi? The possibilities are unlimited and at the same time they don't necessarely add up the way you'd expect. Let me elaborate, for instance: φ = φ2 + φ3 = φ3 + φ3 + φ4 = φ4 + φ5+ φ4 + φ5 + φ4 which means you can also use φ4 + φ4 + φ4 + φ5 + φ5, φ5 + φ4 + φ4 + φ4 + φ5 or φ4 + φ4 + φ5 + φ5 + φ4 and it'll still ad up the same. You might also want to consider in which way are you planning to use phi: inner proportions of a building or outer. On one side, by using inner proportions (I mean, without counting the thicknes of the materials of the walls or floor) you get the user to relate to the proportions of the building once inside (like Le Corbusier, who decided to make every ceiling 2.2m from the floor at some poin in his career, which I personally think it's a terrible idea); on the other you might want the general object to have golden dimensions, like the cube in which the Parthenon is inscripted (which by the way, you always knew has golden proportions...I just remembered I some of the material from the main Golden Ratio article, which agreed, *might* not be that well sourced).
- The interior design guy (john pile) is not phi-happy, he mentions very specific examples of golden section which is not the first time I heard of. Besides, controversial cases are not supposed to be ignored, anyway. If you believe Pile is lying or exagerating, you source your counterpoint. That way our readers get to find out the reality of what *according to you* is a myth. I'm sorry but I'm not going to take the word (a guy that so far denied the strong linkings of golden proportion with Gothic Architecture, the Parthenon, and oh-for-God's-sake, PHIdias - yes, I'm using argumentum ad hominem here, just like you did to Pile) over Pile's, a Pratt Institute design proffesor. You don't buy it, I relatively do, then, YOU SOURCE YOUR COUNTERPOINTS.
- Besides, if you don't like my quoting, you can change it, I'm fine with it.
- I'm warning you, you tend to break 3RR, and I won't let you. Don't ever blank rv again in the middle of my edits that's just childish. Firstly it seems lack of common cortesy on your part; seconly, blanking it's lazy, inconsiderated (thus you're being twice as rude) and againt the policies (or recomended behavior, whatever).
--20-dude (talk) 04:23, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
- I gave you pretty specific reasons for everything in that series of edits that you messed up. Read it again. I'll cite counterpoints when you've done a more nearly tolerable job of telling us what your sources claim. But I don't see how you can think he's not phi-happy after I pointed out what he said about the Egyptians. It seems clear that you are in the same boat, which is why you will need constant back-pressure to prevent the spew of so much of this garbage into our encyclopedia. But please, slow down, look at how we edit things to be sensible, and try to learn to do it yourself so we don't have to clean up after you so much. Dicklyon (talk) 04:44, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
- ^ LIVIO, Mario. The Golden Ratio: The Story of Phi, the World's Most Astonishing Number. Broadway Books. Published 2002. ISBN 0767908163. Page 53