Chipmunkdavis (talk | contribs) Tag: Reply |
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Now, first I'd like to point out I ain't Korean, so I might come off ignorant on this subject. So please bear with me. |
Now, first I'd like to point out I ain't Korean, so I might come off ignorant on this subject. So please bear with me. |
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I want to make a point here the justification of Noktundo on wikippedia's list of disputes is questionable. First and foremost, South Korea has never demanded Russia return Noktundo, even though South Korea may have demanded USSR to do so in 1985 and 1990 (again, I haven't seen any source confirming this so I kinda doubt the validity of this). USSR is long gone. What might hold true for USSR does not automatically carry over to Russia, |
I want to make a point here the justification of Noktundo on wikippedia's list of disputes is questionable. First and foremost, South Korea has never demanded Russia return Noktundo, even though South Korea may have demanded USSR to do so in 1985 and 1990 (again, I haven't seen any source confirming this so I kinda doubt the validity of this). USSR is long gone. What might hold true for USSR does not automatically carry over to Russia, which is a completely different nation. I figure South Korea has to make fresh demands post 1991 in order for Noktundo to be considered a dispute. Case in point, what might hold true for the UK does not automatically carry over to the USA despite the fact the USA is descended from the UK the way Russia descended from the USSR. What say you? |
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[[Special:Contributions/136.143.222.166|136.143.222.166]] ([[User talk:136.143.222.166|talk]]) 11:26, 17 January 2024 (UTC) |
[[Special:Contributions/136.143.222.166|136.143.222.166]] ([[User talk:136.143.222.166|talk]]) 11:26, 17 January 2024 (UTC) |
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Merge Proposal
- The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
I propose that the article List of military occupations be merged into this article. Certainly the second half of the article, List of military occupations#Current military occupations should be merged into here. In fact, that section is a list of current territorial disputes, all of which are already included here, which some editor or other, in an effort to promote his or her own point of view regarding the dispute, has deemed a "military occupation." While the list purports to be based on some objective criteria of what constitutes a military occupation (as opposed, for example, an annexation or border adjustment), every one of the entries in the list is the subject of dispute. "Territorial dispute" is a much more neutral and much more accurate description of the political and military situations of these entries.
There is no justification for having two lists so similar in content, especially when one of them is of such questionable neutrality. --Ravpapa (talk) 16:34, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
- Merge If only to avoid the semantic ambiguity that's arisen between occupation & occupation. TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 18:19, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
- Do not merge — The vast majority of the article does not contain territorial disputes. Was Germany's occupation of Poland a territorial dispute? Clearly not. If editors perceive there are problems with the list, they can be addressed in a variety of ways other than scrapping it altogether and merging it here. – Zntrip 19:14, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
- Do not merge Territorial disputes can overlap with territorial disputes. This is a given possibility and not a given fact.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 20:21, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
- Do not merge I fail to see the redundancy, they are different things, per Zntrip. Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 21:30, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
- Do not merge The articles cover different things, like Peacemaker said, they are different things. - SantiLak (talk) 22:37, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
- Merge a list of occupations is one and the same as territorial disputes and any overlap can more easily be fixed than by having two lists on an encyclopedia. Sir Joseph (talk) 00:08, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
- Do not merge These are obviously totally different concepts. Many of the disputes involve no military forces, and lots are actually between countries who have a good relationship with one another. Nick-D (talk) 07:59, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
Gibraltar
Gibraltar is not subject to a territorial dispute. Nobody disputes Britian's legal title to it. Spain wants it handed over to them, but do not dispute the fact that it was ceded to Britain. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.120.237.139 (talk) 16:49, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
- There is a territorial dispute, but the wording you removed was inaccurate in implication.
- The relevant clause of the Treaty of Utrecht is:
The Catholic King [of Spain] does hereby, for himself, his heirs and successors, yield to the Crown of Great Britain the full and entire propriety of the town and castle of Gibraltar, together with the port, fortifications, and forts thereunto belonging; and he gives up the said propriety to be held and enjoyed absolutely with all manner of right for ever, without any exception or impediment whatsoever.
- Spain emphasises the section "the town and castle of Gibraltar, together with the port, fortifications, and forts thereunto belonging". They argue that the ceded territory only consists the town, castle, port, fortifications and forts associated with Gibraltar in 1713 and thus argues that Britain has no right to e.g. airspace and territorial waters (concepts that did not yet exist in 1713). It disputes British control over the isthmus between the Rock of Gibraltar and La Linéa as not being part of the cession described.
- Britain emphasises the section "to be held and enjoyed absolutely with all manner of right for ever, without any exception or impediment whatsoever". They argue that they have the same rights as they would have in any other British territory, including e.g. airspace and territorial waters. They also argue that they have a right to the isthmus under the doctrine of prescription (i.e. if Spain had a problem with it they should have said something at the time).
- The wording removed was "Spain claims territory under the Treaty of Utrecht conditions". This is wrong - both positions rely on Utrecht. It's a matter of differing interpretations of Utrecht. I have reinstated Gibraltar with a wording that better describes this. Kahastok talk 17:37, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
- Spain wants it back? So it is a territorial dispute. 120.16.231.111 (talk) 01:12, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
Internal Spanish dispute
Disputes within a state by internal entities---> Spain: Basque Country against Castille and León for Treviño enclave.
http://america.pink/trevino-enclave-dispute_4518191.html
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.231.85.98 (talk • contribs) 19:09, 29 May 2016
New columns
I'm adding a column over whether natural resources and one over whether strategic locations are involved. May be interesting. Based on the articles, of course. Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) (talk) 13:33, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
PRC and RoC
Some points about this dispute:
- The dispute about Hong Kong should be in the "Disputes between UN-recognized states and others", not in the "Disputes between recognized sovereign states"
- The same for Macclesfield Bank
- The same for Taiwan (who appears duplicated, in both lists)
- There is really need of a reference to "Heixiazi / Bolshoy Ussuriysky Island"? This is not covered by the dispute about "Mainland China, Hainan, and other islands controlled by the PRC"? The same could be applied, btw, to the disputes about Hong Kong and Macclesfield Bank (basically, PRC and RoC dispute all territories controlled by the other - they are two rival governments reclaiming more or less the same territory)--MiguelMadeira (talk) 13:53, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
Nagorno-Karabakh
Nagorno-Karabakh is disputed by Armenia and Azerbaijan (in any way, if it is the case, it should be in the "Disputes between recognized sovereign states"? Or it is a dispute between Azerbaijan and the self-proclaimed Nagorno-Karabakh?--MiguelMadeira (talk) 13:59, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
There's another US-Mexico border dispute.
Mexico said that Texas's southern border was the Nuces River, while the US claimed that it was the Rio Grande. See Mexican%E2%80%93American_War#Origins_of_the_war — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.235.102.246 (talk) 17:07, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
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Maps
Is there a way this page could have maps or a map of disputed territories? I think this would be really helpful.
Thanks!
-TenorTwelve (talk) 06:05, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
Sir Abu Nu’ayr island
Sir Abu Nu’ayr island disputed by Iran and UAE. see it : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Disputed_territories_in_the_Persian_Gulf — Preceding unsigned comment added by Callofworld (talk • contribs) 11:44, 4 March 2017 (UTC)
China-Nepal disputes
There were a brief dispute between China and Nepal in the late 1950s. The disputed areas were scattered throughout their border and were relatively minor by international standard.
The exact number of territorial disputes has never been ascertained, but as many as 20 sectors may have been involved. The most serious disputes were located at Rasu (north of Katmandu), Kimathanka in the east, Nara Pass, Tingribode near Mustang, Mount Everest, and the Nelu River. Most of these disputes were settled in favor of Nepal, although several favored China.
[2] --Voidvector (talk) 08:13, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
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Kashmir
Users have been removing Kashmir and replacing it with Azad Kashmir. The dispute appears to cover much more than Azad Kashmir, as detailed in Kashmir conflict which is linked. These changes would seem to violate NPOV, unless I'm mistaken? —Guanaco 20:23, 25 May 2017 (UTC)
I'm mistaken. A number of territories are listed individually, each part of the same overall conflict. Would it be better to merge them all, and leave who controls and claims what to Kashmir conflict and the lands' respective articles? —Guanaco 20:36, 25 May 2017 (UTC)
Mount Baekdu and Gando
Wasn't Baekdu dispute resolved per the 1962 agreement?! In article is stated this way. And also about Gando: ,,Today, none of the governments involved [...] make the claim that Gando is Korean territory". So I think that we should remove those two entries. We have two contradictory statements. --Daduxing (talk) 07:38, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
Cleanup
This page needs a cleanup
(1)There is no distinction made between disputes; neclarities; or borders that were never formally agreed or delimited.
(2)When we are talking about territorial disputes we should emphasize the government's position and not the opinion of some groups or private persons.
(3)Paektu and Jiandao - As per 1962 border agreement between China and North Korea there are no disputes. Also we have a centuries old border agreement (1712) between Qing and Joseon states. We don't have a claim from South Korean government either. If there was ever a dispute in this case, this should be mentioned on the historical disputes or removed.
I’m removing Paektu and Jiandao from the list. If someone wants to add them back, please, provide a reference from a governmental source, not the opinion of some nationalistic groups or as I saw on this page from Reddit site, from a subreddit/subtopic named MapPorn --Daduxing (talk) 09:54, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
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Claims that Taiwan seeks to control various regions bordering China
There are many dubious claims on this page that Taiwan seeks to control various regions bordering China.
These are based on the Republic of China constitution's description of ROC territories, which may have been true at the time it was written. (The US constitution says there are 13 states, but no one claims that has anything to do with the present.)
The ROC constitution was never even intended to be the constitution for Taiwan, but the Taiwanese people can't change it, which China would consider a formal declaration of independence and justification for an attack the island.
No one in Taiwan even dreams of retaking the mainland anymore, let alone regions bordering China.
Maybe these could go in a list of historical disputes, but not a list of current ones.
2604:2000:F183:37F0:70F0:86A7:13AF:C038 (talk) 20:51, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
- I agree that it's reasonable to question whether these count as "territorial disputes", but it's not quite as a simple as you make it out to be, and some of your statements are incorrect. First, the Taiwanese people can make changes to the constitution - it was last amended in 2005. Second, it is an exaggeration to say that "No one in Taiwan even dreams of retaking the mainland anymore"; my understanding is that there are indeed those who still dream of this, though most of them are very old now. Certainly there are still elements within the KMT - possibly even most of the party leadership - who consider the ROC, in principle, to be the rightful government of all of China, in which case the territories in question could plausibly be an issue. GeoEvan (talk) 09:26, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
- Ok, there are a few crazy individuals in Taiwan who want to take over mainland China. I have no doubt there are individuals in the US who want to take over Canada, but I wouldn't call that a "territorial dispute." And if there is a political party that is not in power, which makes claims on other countries, I wouldn't call that a "territorial dispute" either.
- As for changes to the ROC constitution, the only changes relevant to this issue would be changes to descriptions of ROC territories, and there is zero doubt that the PRC would regard such changes as a formal declaration of independence, for which they have threatened violent retaliation.
- 2604:2000:F183:37F0:70F0:86A7:13AF:C038 (talk) 20:47, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
- Sure. I wouldn't be surprised if there are a quite a lot civil servants in the current administration who still feel the ROC includes the Mainland (not necessarily the same thing as expecting to actually take it back), but I agree that that's maybe not enough of a reason to classify it as a "territorial dispute" in the strict sense. I do think it's useful for these territorial claim inconsistencies to be mentioned though. Hopefully we can find some kind of compromise solution, rather than just blanking them from the article. Moving them to Historical Disputes, with a substantial note about the situation, might be appropriate. Curious if anyone else has anything to say about this? I think it may have been discussed previously, but can't remember. GeoEvan (talk) 02:55, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
International Disputes
- International Disputes
- The World Factbook Field Listing :: Disputes - international — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.96.37.1 (talk) 19:48, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
Remove bold notion
Bold notion doesn't help and can't be verified by sources. Description should clearly state the current status of disputed territory. Let's remove bold notion altogether. --Vanuan (talk) 23:21, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
- If we want to structure information on current status of territories, I propose the following columns:
- country of physical control or influence (in the case of UN unrecognized entities it's useful to state which country sends humanitarian help, etc)
- country of UN recognition (which country it should belong to, can be "undecided")
- third party countries (whether there are UN recognized countries which don't comply with UN decision)
- --Vanuan (talk) 23:31, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
Rockall
Any specific reason why Rockall is not mentioned here? I would add it but perhaps it does not meet the criteria. --Gerrit CUTEDH 07:57, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- Rockall itself is not really disputed, but the maritime dispute it generates may be worth including. CMD (talk) 14:02, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
Territorial disputes of India
Just for the record, India's government just stated categorically that it has no border disputes with Afghanistan, Bhutan, Maldives, or Sri Lanka. It also stated that it has no border "dispute" with Myanmar, though the two countries' shared border is not yet fully demarcated. [1] I have added a note regarding the Kabaw border disagreement with Myanmar in the table. GeoEvan (talk) 22:14, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
Georgian conflict
Georgia has 2 disputed territories: 1. Abkhazia 2. South Ossetia — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.74.2.194 (talk) 23:12, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
the section on Noktundo is incorrect
The dispute should be between South Korea and Russia, not between North Korea and Russia.
--208.72.125.2 (talk) 21:38, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
Contested deletion
This page should not be speedily deleted because... A "Country" is "a nation with its own government, occupying a particular territory." As per wikipedia: "A country may be an independent sovereign state or part of a larger state, as a non-sovereign or formerly sovereign political division, a physical territory with a government, or a geographic region associated with sets of previously independent or differently associated people with distinct political characteristics."
East Sister covers all of these. Micronations typically do not have a population, are entirely digital, have no permanent residents, and certainly do not enforce border security. By contrast, East Sister has a population, is not a digital entity, has permanent residents, and maintains an armed perimeter to enforce border protection around the main island. There is no "legal" way of becoming a country prior to a group of people's ability to enforce their claim over their territory. -- Whodoeswhatnow (talk) 23:32, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
- Secondary source? --Numberguy6 (talk) 01:06, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
- To expand on Numberguy6's comment, is there any evidence of your residency? If you have occupied a nature reserve since 2016, you would have generated press coverage in Windsor Star or from CBC Windsor, etc. -- Zanimum (talk) 17:13, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
- @Whodoeswhatnow: -- Zanimum (talk) 17:15, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone
Is this really a sovereign state? I think that it is actually an armed insurgency. I think that this can't qualify as a state due to its lack of government, as well as its lack of capacity to enter into relations with other states. --Numberguy6 (talk) 04:18, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
Saudi-UAE dispute
I think this is a settled dispute. I have seen official UAE maps that do not include the disputed areas. Can someone look into this and check it out to confirm? HERMIT100 (talk) 20:39, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
A Farmer Moved a 200-Year-Old Stone, and the French-Belgian Border
this is amusing. -- RoySmith (talk) 18:44, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
Kagera Salient, Tanzania
Could someone please add the former dispute surrounding the Kagera Salient in Tanzania? This was claimed - and briefly annexed - by Uganda during 1978 and 1979. I am unable to edit for some reason. Many thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.0.244.219 (talk) 14:13, 23 October 2021 (UTC)
Gibraltar
User Venezia Friulano wishes us to claim that Spain disputes British sovereignty over Gibraltar in its entirety. This is not accurate.
They base this claim on this Spanish government document. I'd invite you to read the source, and find anywhere where it says that Spain contests the existence of British sovereignty in Gibraltar. (To be clear, this does not include the isthmus between Gibraltar and Spain, which is disputed.)
On the other hand it does explicitly an unambiguously say that Gibraltar is "a territory under British sovereignty". I see no reason why we should not believe it when it says this.
Spain's argument is as follows:
- Spain argues that as the Treaty of Utrecht refers to "the city and the castle of Gibraltar, together with its port, defences and fortresses that belong to it", Britain has no rights outside these areas. This means that Spain argues that Britain has no rights to, for example:
- The isthmus between the city and castle of Gibraltar and the Spanish town of La Linéa, an area that includes Gibraltar's airport
- Territorial waters around Gibraltar, outside the port
- Airspace over Gibraltar
- Spain argues that the British have an obligation under international law to negotiate a return of Gibraltar to Spanish sovereignty.
Britain does not accept any of these arguments. We sum this up as Dispute over the interpretation of the Treaty of Utrecht and the location of the border., which is accurate based on Venezia Friulano's own source. Kahastok talk 17:23, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
Territory disputed between Canada and the United States
Any reason this section exists, rather than being merged into the North American section? BilledMammal (talk) 02:08, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- I think it's just to provide a simpler table given the number of rows, although I don't know why it wouldn't at the very least be a subsection. CMD (talk) 18:24, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
Russia and Ukraine
Should we add territories occupied by Russia during the Russo-Ukraine war? Ex. Cherobynol, etc.--Cakepops4everr (talk) 15:09, 25 February 2022 (UTC) Cakepops4everr
- They are not at the moment disputed between the states in this sense. CMD (talk) 16:55, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
- There are now paragraphs for this territories, summarized enough. Владимир Казаринов (talk) 05:00, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
Sarych headland
Does is have scene to put in a separate line since the territory is fully a part of Crimea? No note added, is it a distinct case? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Владимир Казаринов (talk • contribs) 04:56, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
- No, this dispute is not distinct from Crimea as a whole. I have removed it from the list. It can be thought of as a precursor to the dispute over Crimea. It is useful to know for historical purposes, but at the present time, it is irrelevant, and it probably won't ever be relevant ever again. It also wasn't ever "resolved", so it doesn't belong in the historical segment of this list (despite what I just said above). Jargo Nautilus (talk) 10:11, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
Tuzla Island
Same thing: since the location is in a near-Crimea area and disputed circumstances are really similar, could it be united with Crimea case? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Владимир Казаринов (talk • contribs) 04:57, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
- Again, it would be a stretch to argue that this is distinct. It is basically just a precursor to the larger dispute over Crimea as a whole. I have removed it from the list as well. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 10:12, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
Should Israel-Palestine dispute be moved to the section involving non UN states?
Since Palestine is only an Observer state of the UN and not ana actual UN member it shouldn't be in that section unless observer status also counts for this. 47.233.19.106 (talk) 04:22, 8 March 2022 (UTC) Also noticed that the Western Sahara dispute is found in both the Africa section and the non-UN section. 47.233.19.106 (talk) 04:24, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
- The Palestinian Territories are internationally recognised as a disputed territory, even though the State of Palestine itself only has partial recognition. The situation is largely the same regarding the status of Western Sahara vs the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 10:06, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
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Merger discussion
Proposed Merger with List of irredentist claims or Teritorial disputes 92.0.152.112 (talk) 22:17, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose Irredentist claims are made by quasi-states or governments-in-exile while territorial disputes involved sovereign states or de facto states. They shouldn't be mixed up. 2001:8003:913E:5D01:F033:ABFB:89B3:FDA2 (talk) 03:44, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
Toledo War
Former US State Border Dispute over the city of Toledo between Michigan and Ohio 72.241.159.8 (talk) 20:37, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
Junagadh
@Cryw 9 - In this source, which is used in the file of the map on the main Pakistan Wikipedia article, the territory of Junagadh is highlighted. The border colours used show green on the inside, and yellow on the outside. Green indicates Pakistani territory, yellow indicates Indian territory. [3] Jargo Nautilus (talk) 00:16, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
Bear in mind that if you are to remove the dispute from this article, then you must also remove it from the Pakistan article. This article relies on the same sources that the main article relies upon. The status quo of the main article has been to display this as a territorial dispute in the main map for several months now. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 00:18, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
- Unfortunately I don't know how to edit SVG's, and the Pakistan map is an SVG so I don't know how to edit such. If someone can they are free to do so however. Cryw 9 (talk) 01:00, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
- Couldn't you simply revert the map to an older version? Why would you have to change that image directly? Jargo Nautilus (talk) 09:37, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
- I'm also not sure why you think the map is not a reliable source. The Diplomat [4], a reputable media source (I think), has stated that "the new map also marked other small and slightly more distant parts of India as Pakistan’s territory". To me, that's clear enough that some sort of territorial dispute is taking place, even if its not very serious (personally, I doubt that Pakistan would actually attempt to seize Junagadh). That source was in the article, but you removed it, which presumably means that you regard it as unreliable. Bear in mind that the Diplomat source itself cites Pakistan's maps. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 09:43, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
- The map is reliable as to the position taken by the Pakistani government, as the map is the official border survey map of the Pakistani government. There is thus in fact no source that could be more reliable as to what Pakistan's claims are, since it is an official government source.XavierGreen (talk) 15:32, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
Argentine–Chile border
Isn't a part of the Argentine–Chile border on the Southern Patagonia Ice Field still undefined, or did they finally demarcate it? Should it be added to the SA part of the list?
Technicality nitpicker (talk) 14:27, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
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"Missouri" entry, under resolved territorial disputes in the Americas
Why is this here? Arguably, the Union and the Confederacy disputed the territory of every secessionary state; should we list all of those too? And by that standard, isn't every every civil war in which both sides can form a functioning or internationally-recognized government a territorial dispute? But including all of those would dilute the list's usefulness to irrelevance. Bernanke's Crossbow (talk) 07:57, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
!!?US states in 1780's???
Seriously, who in their right mind would consider the Kashmir border dispute in the same category or page as a New Hampshire-VT disagreement in the US Revolutionary war times? When did NH or NY exist as independent republics?? Vermont REPUBLIC??? recognized by who? If that merits mention, there were dozens of provincial disputes in the Spanish colonies in South America not mentioned here. Leave it to some overzealous US dimwit to put those on the same level. 198.24.21.137 (talk) 14:55, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
- Technically all the U.S. states were independent until the Articles of Confederation were ratified, and outside of sovcits no one has any doubt that the Contstition's ratification ended the last semblance of that. And as for the NH-VT dispute, Vermont remained an independent state until 1792. Daniel Case (talk) 19:20, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
I am deleting Noktundo from the article.
The reasoning is a territorial dispute is only valid if a country claims some land as its own. South Korea does not claim Noktundo as its own land. So it does not qualify as a territorial dispute. The source provided lists Russia having territorial disputes with Kazakhstan, Ukraine, Japan, Taiwan, not with South Korea.
[5]https://brilliantmaps.com/territorial-disputes/
45.74.78.11 (talk) 04:07, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
- Note: this has already been discussed thoroughly at Talk:Noktundo § I am deleting Noktundo from the list of territorial disputes page.
- Please have a read through the Wikipedia:Reliable sources page and cite a secondary, independent source (e.g. news article) proving that South Korea has officially resolved its land dispute with Russia over Noktundo. Otherwise, you do not have a valid, strong point to make here. The source you provided does not explicitly say the dispute has been settled, it only omits mention of the dispute, and that is likely due to it not being significant, and the page only goes over ones of bigger significance/importance, for conciseness. It might not have much significance, but a dispute that has not been officially settled is still an ongoing dispute.
- Also, please stop repeating the same point over and over again when several other editors have clearly disagreed with your claims, as well as constantly flooding talk pages with new threads about the same topic. Doing so is called bludgeoning the process, which is essentially disruptive editing. Please don't make us also have to semi-protect this page again.
- To help out on this matter, I have requested input from more editors at WikiProject Korea talk page, which has currently brought one new editor into the discussion – see tobigtokale's comments at the Noktundo talk page.
- On Wikipedia, we resolve content disputes through consensus. That is, the version of the page that has the majority of editors favouring it is the one that is kept. So far, three editors agree that Noktundo be kept in the List of territorial disputes article while only you disagree. — AP 499D25 (talk) 07:10, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
- Consensus is not a majority vote, it is consensus. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 08:21, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
- "not a majority vote" correct, my explanation wasn't the best. I'm just trying to give an idea here as to what consensus means. To give a better explanation, it's when disagreeing editors work together to develop a version of a page that pretty much all editors can agree upon. It could be one version or the other of the disputed pages, or it could be a compromise between the two. — AP 499D25 (talk) 10:06, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
- This isn't a logical disagreement, it was discussed already as you mentioned at Talk:Noktundo#I am deleting Noktundo from the list of territorial disputes page
- @Toobigtokale mentioned it best at https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Noktundo&oldid=1189809382
- We have discussed this to death, the person is NOT interested in changing their mind and quite frankly it is absurd to expect other editors like me, who have been civil this entire time to this person, to continue trying to talk to them when their only response is calling me an "American propagandist" and other things Sunnyediting99 (talk) 15:32, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
- What source is there that says South Korea demanded Noktundo from Russia, either for itself or for North Korea? Could you please kindly provide the source? If possible, it would be preferred if the source has a quote of the South Korean president of what he said to the Russian president regarding Noktundo. If the source is legit, then I will accept Noktundo as disputed territory between South Korea and Russia. If there is no legit source, then I think we should clean up this article and purge entries that are meaningless. Thanks.
- "not a majority vote" correct, my explanation wasn't the best. I'm just trying to give an idea here as to what consensus means. To give a better explanation, it's when disagreeing editors work together to develop a version of a page that pretty much all editors can agree upon. It could be one version or the other of the disputed pages, or it could be a compromise between the two. — AP 499D25 (talk) 10:06, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
- The source provided in this article https://www.10news.com/news/national-news/south-korea-fires-warning-shots-at-russian-military-aircraft states 'Their only point of contention is the island of Noktundo, which Russia claims as its own territory but South Korea maintains is an important part of Korean territory.' This sentence does not imply South Korea demands Russia return Noktundo to Korea. It merely states South Korea considers Noktundo an important part of Korean territory. This is not sufficient to consider Noktundo a disputed territory, because every country in the world has land that is now in some other country, and that does not make every country in the world having territorial disputes. 162.221.123.225 (talk) 13:11, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
- I think there's a genuine good discussion to be had here, but these IP user(s) aren't doing a good job of it :/. Being excessively condescending and providing one or two weak sources and trying to draw arbitrary lines in the sand for what would satisfy them... Not productive.
- Noktundo is commonly described as a territorial dispute by non-state academics:
- [6]
As a result of external invasion and war on the Korean Peninsula, it has led to territorial disputes as well as human and material sacrifices. Baekdusan jeonggyebi(Mt. Paektu Demarcation Stone), North Korea-China Border Treaty, Gando, Roktundo, Dokdo, Ieodo and Sector 7 are just that.
- [7]
영토 문제를 다루며 녹둔도를 언급한 책은 있지만...
->[T]here are many books that mention Noktundo as a territorial issue
- [6]
- However, the South Korean govt officially denies that it is:
- [8]
외교부 영토해양과의 홍성원 서기관은 “녹둔도는 현재 당면한 영토 분쟁 지역에 해당하지 않으므로 우리 정부는 이에 대해 어떤 특정한 입장을 갖고 있지 않다”고 했다.
->Hong Seong-won, secretary of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs’ Territorial and Maritime Affairs Department, said, "Since Nokdundo Island is not considered a current territorial dispute, our government does not have any specific position on it."
- [8]
- This begs the question, do territorial conflicts have to be between state actors? See Irredentism:
However, difficulties in applying the concept to concrete cases have given rise to academic debates about its precise definition. Disagreements concern whether either or both ethnic and historical reasons have to be present and whether non-state actors can also engage in irredentism.
- It's not an easy question to answer. I don't have an answer to it. Unless someone's about to nail down the academic debate on this topic with more than just a few scattered sources we shouldn't be comfortable trying to nail down what is and isn't a border dispute based on gut feeling. We need to rely on what reliable sources are saying (and not reading between the lines of what they don't say, that's not acceptable reasoning on Wikipedia).
- Again, there's a good, fascinating conversation to be had here, but it's not being done justice by the IP user(s). toobigtokale (talk) 17:54, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for the response, I think this again though shows that while it's not the clearest issue, it still is a territorial dispute due to a mixture of the fact that non-state academics see it as a territorial dispute (whereas the ROK Government is keeping quiet on it now for the necessity of good relations with Russia) and the fact that the Korean Government in 1985 and 1990 issued claims demanding the territory be given to North Korea.
- https://www.sedaily.com/NewsView/1VDYZQNO1P in 1990, the South Korean government demanded the return of Noktundo (this was after North Korea and Russia negotiated, with North Korea agreeing to recognize Russian sovereignty over Noktundo), the key thing to note was that as other sources in the article pointed out, they demanded it be returned to North Korean jurisdiction.
- https://news.koreadaily.com/2019/05/08/society/opinion/7223417.html "In 1990, President Noh asked for the return of the island, even offering a two million dollar compensation to Russia"
- I think it's telling that the ROK Government stated that a current territorial dispute, our government does not have any specific position on it." which is a very coy response. Contrast that with North Korea, which officially resolved the dispute by ceding all territorial claims it holds over Noktundo to Russia. South Korea is deliberately using choice language to state it doesn't have a specific position on it, but it also hasn't retracted its 1985 and 1990 claims. Had the ROK retracted its claims I wouldn't consider it a territorial dispute, but the fact that it only is remaining mute on the issue just to avoid tensions with Russia combined with the fact that academics generally do see it as a dispute means it likely is a dispute. Given Wikipedia's preference for academics' opinions on an issue over a government's opinion it still is a territorial dispute. Sunnyediting99 (talk) 18:04, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
- The source provided in this article https://www.10news.com/news/national-news/south-korea-fires-warning-shots-at-russian-military-aircraft states 'Their only point of contention is the island of Noktundo, which Russia claims as its own territory but South Korea maintains is an important part of Korean territory.' This sentence does not imply South Korea demands Russia return Noktundo to Korea. It merely states South Korea considers Noktundo an important part of Korean territory. This is not sufficient to consider Noktundo a disputed territory, because every country in the world has land that is now in some other country, and that does not make every country in the world having territorial disputes. 162.221.123.225 (talk) 13:11, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
Noktundo should be removed from the list of disputed territories
1. The dispute is between private citizens, not between governments. Territorial disputes between nations can only be between governments, not between private citizens. Case in point, Chinese drew the eastern half of Heixiazi island as Chinese land, but we do not consider it a territorial dispute, because it is the action of private citizens, not the action of the Chinese government.
2. North Korea and USSR signed a border treaty in 1990. There is no territorial dispute between North Korea and USSR. Territorial disputes cannot be made on behalf of someone else. Case in point, Brazil considers Falklands islands as part of Argentina and supports Argentina's claim. This does not make Brazil having territorial dispute with the UK regarding the Falkland islands. Likewise, it cannot be considered territorial dispute even if South Korea claims Noktundo should be part of North Korea. It can only be considered territorial dispute if South Korea claims Noktundo belongs to itself.
3. The list of territorial disputes compiled by CIA is very thorough as you can see considering it includes very small minor disputes such as Hans island. So it seems Noktundo should not be considered a disputed territory.
[9]https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/field/disputes-international/
45.74.78.47 (talk) 05:20, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
- Please see explanation in the previous section above, by Sunnyediting99. Particularly, the last paragraph.
- This is the last time you're going to push your point over and over again here while ignoring / not responding to other people's points. So please listen up. Any further comments like that, they will be removed and this talk page may be semi-protected again. — AP 499D25 (talk) 05:34, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
- Sunnyediting99 believes Noktundo should be a disputed territory because certain private citizens claim it should be Korean land. I have given my reason why I think this does not seem reasonable. I have listed my argument with the 3 points I made above. I have provided my reasoning and I have provided evidence.
- Again, I am more than willing to debate with him on this issue. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 45.74.78.47 (talk) 05:46, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
- Okay, I'll quote this paragraph from Sunnyediting99 in his last comment, which explains really well (and in accordance with Wikipedia guidelines) why Noktundo should still be listed as an ongoing dispute:
I think it's telling that the ROK Government stated that a current territorial dispute, our government does not have any specific position on it." which is a very coy response. Contrast that with North Korea, which officially resolved the dispute by ceding all territorial claims it holds over Noktundo to Russia. South Korea is deliberately using choice language to state it doesn't have a specific position on it, but it also hasn't retracted its 1985 and 1990 claims. Had the ROK retracted its claims I wouldn't consider it a territorial dispute, but the fact that it only is remaining mute on the issue just to avoid tensions with Russia combined with the fact that academics generally do see it as a dispute means it likely is a dispute. Given Wikipedia's preference for academics' opinions on an issue over a government's opinion it still is a territorial dispute.
- I'll also repeat once more, my comment on this matter: Please cite a secondary, independent source (e.g. news article) proving that South Korea has officially resolved its land dispute with Russia over Noktundo.
- The sources you provided above still only omit Noktundo as a disputed territory. You still haven't provided a source explicitly saying that South Korea has settled its dispute with Russia over Noktundo.
- You've repeated your points many times, other editors have also made their points very clear too. You need to listen to their points and understand them instead of repeating your own point over and over again. — AP 499D25 (talk) 06:33, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
- There's no point in talking, I provided sources for the claims on the very same comment that AP cited from, which this user is just pretending it doesn't exist and stating this is my "personal opinion" which is incredibly ironic given that I provided sources, cited academics and newspapers whereas the IP abuser initially tried to just delete Noktundo without providing evidence or reasoning based off their first few edits. This has been talked and bludgeoned to death, the user here clearly has intent on sending wave after wave of edits and topics just to push their point.
- https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Noktundo&oldid=1186573443
- This ^ is what the pages looked like because of the vandalism wrought by this person. It's time we stamp this down and end this
- @AP 499D25 do you want to put in the semi-protection request in, or would you prefer I do it? I think we might need sth longer than one month because this person keeps coming back every month after the protection ends. Sunnyediting99 (talk) 23:29, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
- Sunnyediting99 is making a lot of personal opinions. Notice the words like "coy" and "combined with" which he uses. Wikipedia should be objective, not subjective. Wikipedia should not be based on some user's personal opinions.
- Sunnyediting99 still have not provided a single source regarding his claim that South Korea asked USSR to return Noktundo to North Korea, which Sunnyediting99 claims South Korea did so in 1985 and 1990 under president Noh. I have repeatedly requested him to provide a source proving his claim. He never did so. Is providing a source really too much to ask for? He mentions a president Noh. I tried to look him up. And I cannot find anything about the existence of this president Noh which Sunnyediting99 mentions.
- As I explained in point 2 of my argument, territorial dispute cannot be made on behalf of someone else. Noktundo cannot be considered territorial dispute unless North Korea considers Noktundo belongs to itself or South Korea considers Noktundo belongs to itself. Noktundo cannot be considered territorial dispute even if South Korea considers Noktundo belongs to North Korea, which, again, Sunnyediting99 claims happened in 1985 and 1990 without ever providing a source. I have given an example. I explained why Falklands is not a territorial dispute between Brazil and the UK even though Brazil considers Falklands belonging to Argentina.
- And last but not least, if Noktundo really is a territorial dispute, then why is it not in the CIA's list of territorial disputes which I provided in point 3 of my argument? This list is comprehensive and contains every territorial dispute there is on the wikipedia's list of territorial disputes, with the exception of Noktundo which not appear on CIA's list of territorial disputes.
- I hope I'm making my points clear.
- 45.74.78.47 (talk) 12:55, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
- If you look at the comments in the thread above, other users (not only Sunnyediting99 but also toobigtokale) have provided sources showing that Noktundo is a disputed territory. I'll repeat them here for you: [1][2][3][4]
- Also a couple more sources from the Talk:Noktundo § I am deleting Noktundo from the list of territorial disputes page thread: [5][6]
- Regarding the source you provided, it comes from the CIA, a governmental organisation, so it is considered a primary source. Wikipedia's reliable sources guideline states that
articles should rely on secondary sources whenever possible
. See Wikipedia:Reliable sources § Some types of sources. - The sources that other users provided above are secondary sources, disproving your points 1 and 2, which are WP:SYNTH I'm afraid.
- On top of that, like I said before, the CIA source does not clearly state that the Noktundo dispute has been settled. It simply omits mentions of it. Wikipedia's reliable sources guideline, as linked above, states that editors
should never interpret the content of primary sources for themselves
. Saying that it's settled because there's no mention of it in that primary source is considered original research. - So until there are new secondary sources clearly stating that South Korea has settled its Noktundo dispute with Russia, Noktundo is staying on the list of ongoing territorial disputes article, I'm afraid. If you don't have such new secondary sources to provide, then end of discussion. — AP 499D25 (talk) 23:41, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
- If CIA does not even consider Noktundo a disputed territory, then Noktundo should not be included in wikipedia's list. What makes Noktundo so special it is on wikipedia and not on CIA's list of territorial disputes?
- Even if South Korea asked USSR to give Noktundo to Korea in 1985 and 1990, as Sunnyediting99 claimed to have happened (no source provided) under president Noh (no such person seems to exist), this is not a territorial dispute. First, North Korea does not claim Noktundo is North Korean land. Second, USSR no longer exists. Even if South Korea demanded from USSR, South Korea never demanded from Russia. Whatever happened with USSR does not automatically carry over to Russia. Russia is not responsible for any treaty signed by USSR or any interaction USSR may have had with any country.
- This is the particular content of the dispute given in wikipedia regarding Noktundo:
- In 1990, the former Soviet Union and the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (North Korea) signed a border treaty which made the border run through the center of the Tumen river, leaving Noktundo as a former island in Russia. South Korea refused to acknowledge the treaty.[56][57][58]
- This paragraph does not appear to be a dispute from the wording of it. Not acknowledging the treaty is natural considering South Korea does not consider North Korea as legitimate. But from the wording one cannot conclude there is dispute. The wording of this paragraph does not mention who is disputing what with whom. So from the wording of this paragraph, one cannot conclude there is dispute in the first place.
- I hope I'm making my points clear.
- 216.165.212.4 (talk) 03:24, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
- @AP 499D25 they have no new secondary sources and they either don't remember or are willingly omitting that I provided sources in the previous discussion back in 2023. I am formally requesting you put in a protection request for longer than a month as well as ending discussion with the person who has abused IPs and bludgeoned the point.
- Also because of the very glaring incorrect nature of their claim, President Noh is a real person who made the claim to Russia in 1990, (Roh Tae-woo) romanticized in English as "No Tae(-)u" Sunnyediting99 (talk) 04:00, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
- Well, personally, I don't think Noktundo should have been included in wikipedia's list in the first place. I think, for it to be included in wikipedia and not be on CIA's list, there has to be very good reason. Now, some user(s) have mentioned president Noh demanded USSR give Noktundo to North Korea in 1985 and 1990 (which I doubt ever happened) as justification to add Noktundo to this list. It appears to me this event never took place. It appears to me Noktundo was added to this list based on erroneous or dubious sources or perhaps based on sources that reflect the opinion of certain private citizens. In my opinion there is not sufficient justification for Noktundo to be on this list based on again, the 3 points I made above:
- 1. South Korea does not claim Noktundo is South Korean land. As I mentioned, territorial dispute cannot be made on behalf of someone else. Case in point, Brazil supporting Argentina's claim of Falklands is dispute between Argentina and UK, not between Brazil and UK.
- 2. South Korean government has clearly stated there is no current dispute regarding Noktundo. This clearly state there is no dispute on a government level, only there is dispute between private citizens. Dispute between private citizens does not justify Noktundo to be on this list.
- 3. Even if South Korea demanded Noktundo from USSR, South Korea never demanded Noktundo from Russia. What happened with USSR does not automatically carry over to Russia. Case in point, Russia had to sign new border treaties with all of its neighbors after USSR, including new border treaties with China, North Korea, every former Soviet republic.
- So it is my belief Noktundo should never have been on wikipedia's list in the first place, as there is not sufficient grounds for it to be on this list.
- 45.74.78.47 (talk) 04:48, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
- That's enough. Original research, no secondary sources provided, ignoring other people's points, interpretation of primary sources. Page protection has been requested. — AP 499D25 (talk) 05:05, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
- Sunnyediting99 said "Also because of the very glaring incorrect nature of their claim, President Noh is a real person who made the claim to Russia in 1990".
- Could you kindly provide a source for this please? Look mate, I'm trying to learn something here about Noktundo which I frankly find very fascinating, but you gotta give me a chance here. I'm not Korean myself, so I might come off as ignorant.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 45.74.78.47 (talk) 05:02, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
References
- ^ https://www.kci.go.kr/kciportal/ci/sereArticleSearch/ciSereArtiView.kci?sereArticleSearchBean.artiId=ART002709076
- ^ https://monthly.chosun.com/client/news/viw.asp?nNewsNumb=201303100058
- ^ https://www.sedaily.com/NewsView/1VDYZQNO1P
- ^ https://news.koreadaily.com/2019/05/08/society/opinion/7223417.html
- ^ https://www.10news.com/news/national-news/south-korea-fires-warning-shots-at-russian-military-aircraft
- ^ https://dspace.spbu.ru/bitstream/11701/19123/1/238-250.pdf
- Well, not every source is reliable. What if I'm to create a .org page, write on it 1 + 1 = 4, then link it as a source on wikipedia? Does that make 1 + 1 = 4 the truth? You gotta be reasonable and examine the validity of sources too man. Am I not correct? 136.143.222.166 (talk) 11:19, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
Okay, 1 more time I'm going to talk about Noktundo. Previous sections are getting too long to read.
Now, first I'd like to point out I ain't Korean, so I might come off ignorant on this subject. So please bear with me.
I want to make a point here the justification of Noktundo on wikippedia's list of disputes is questionable. First and foremost, South Korea has never demanded Russia return Noktundo, even though South Korea may have demanded USSR to do so in 1985 and 1990 (again, I haven't seen any source confirming this so I kinda doubt the validity of this). USSR is long gone. What might hold true for USSR does not automatically carry over to Russia, which is a completely different nation. I figure South Korea has to make fresh demands post 1991 in order for Noktundo to be considered a dispute. Case in point, what might hold true for the UK does not automatically carry over to the USA despite the fact the USA is descended from the UK the way Russia descended from the USSR. What say you?
136.143.222.166 (talk) 11:26, 17 January 2024 (UTC)