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:::# {{anchor|catholic faith}}Surely the statement should relate specifically to either (a) ownership of the building; or appointment of its management (that, I think I am correct in saying, became the Dean and Chapter once it was established as a Cathedral Church - which it has not always been); or (c) the source of the liturgy used? And it would probably be better located in the [[Lincoln Cathedral#History|history section]] |
:::# {{anchor|catholic faith}}Surely the statement should relate specifically to either (a) ownership of the building; or appointment of its management (that, I think I am correct in saying, became the Dean and Chapter once it was established as a Cathedral Church - which it has not always been); or (c) the source of the liturgy used? And it would probably be better located in the [[Lincoln Cathedral#History|history section]] |
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:::# As the original statement appeared to be applicable to all Church of England churches of the same era, the point made above by [[User:Arthur Holland|Arthur Holland]] [[User_talk:Arthur Holland|(talk)]] about incorporating this consistently across all applicable pages should be discused - and I'm not certain this is the right topic for such a wide-ranging discussion about a well-known historical fact that is certainly covered by the main [[Church of England]] page.{{mdash}}[[User:GrahamSmith|GrahamSmith]] ([[User talk:GrahamSmith|talk]]) 02:18, 2 March 2012 (UTC) |
:::# As the original statement appeared to be applicable to all Church of England churches of the same era, the point made above by [[User:Arthur Holland|Arthur Holland]] [[User_talk:Arthur Holland|(talk)]] about incorporating this consistently across all applicable pages should be discused - and I'm not certain this is the right topic for such a wide-ranging discussion about a well-known historical fact that is certainly covered by the main [[Church of England]] page.{{mdash}}[[User:GrahamSmith|GrahamSmith]] ([[User talk:GrahamSmith|talk]]) 02:18, 2 March 2012 (UTC) |
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'''(od)''' I'm not sure if you mean [[User:Cobulator]] deserves some slack because he/she is a [[WP:SPA|SPA]] or because they are new; but while we are giving them the [[WP:AGF|benefit of the doubt]], it might be worth considering that the IP which made [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Lincoln_Cathedral&diff=prev&oldid=479805318 this edit], also made [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lincoln_Cathedral&diff=prev&oldid=486616052 this one], which repeated [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lincoln_Cathedral&diff=480362217&oldid=480052221 this]. Make of it what you will, [[User:Moonraker12|Moonraker12]] ([[User talk:Moonraker12|talk]]) 14:36, 12 April 2012 (UTC) |
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== Mother Church == |
== Mother Church == |
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Location
Where is this Lincoln? I'm guessing it's not Lincoln, Nebraska, USA, but that's the only Lincoln I know of. Wesley
Probably Lincoln, in Lincolnshire, in England. -- Tarquin
Yes, it is Lincoln, Lincolnshire, England jp347
Well, how many genuine Medieval Cathedrals are there in America? How many 'Lincoln's in Europe?....duh....you REALLY need to go sit on the toilet for an hour and read an atlas Wesley.....
Spire collapse
Addendum by Mark Rejhon: In case someone tries to edit the 1549 date back to 1548, I should mention... There is some confusion about the date of the 525-foot spire collapse are 1548 to 1549 from several sources, but the official church website indicates 1549, so I am using that date.
Complaint about picture
The picture chosen is not illustrative of this building (to say the least). It shows nothing that's unique about this building but rather something one may see in a thousand church or other similar buildings around the world.It would be a suitable photo for an article about furniture or church decor, but does not help anyone seeking info about this building. Pi lambda 00:33, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
yeah, well youve replaced "non free images" with "free ones". whats more important... something thats under a non commercial creative commons license and of good quality or dross thats under a gnu license? is wikipedia out to create quality stuff or simply crusade about open source? particularly like the picture of the wooden seats - could be anywhere. --Gothicform 10:38, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
I can go out and snap one and stick it under a decent license, it's just down the road, tell me what face you want ;) --Streaky 06:09, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
Spire collapsed "thanks to weather"?
From the article:
- "There was a lead-encased wooden spire that rose 160 m (525 feet), that collapsed in 1549 thanks to weather"
I tried replacing "thanks" with something else, but since I don't know the exact circumstances (storm, lightning, tornado?), I wondered if somebody else could do that? Thanks :-) Peter S. 22:18, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
the spire collapsed in a storm. --Gothicform 10:41, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
that works 98.216.8.34 (talk) 18:05, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Highest point at the same height was the ural?
From the article:
- "Up to that point in time, the next point on the earth's surface at the same height, looking eastwards, was the Ural Mountains in Russia."
From the article about Mont Blanc
- "Its height is about 4,810 metres"
So, unless the the City of Lincoln is located 4650 meters AMSL, I don't really believe this point. I'm removing it, add it back with some explanations if it's really true. Cheers! :-) Peter S. 22:26, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
lincoln cathedral is approximately 140 metres AOD. most of the city of lincoln is barely above sea level, so its wrong.
--Gothicform 10:42, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
- Mont Blanc is not due east of Lincoln. The intention appears to be to say that there was nothing higher than Lincoln Cathedral in an easterly direction until the Urals. Sbz5809 13:34, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Although Lincoln is in the middle of Lincolnshire which is mainly flat, the city is on a steep hill with the Cathedral near the top. Nowhere near 4000 odd metres mind! (Unsigned comment)
- The statement the next point on the earth's surface at the same height, looking eastwards, was the Ural Mountains in Russia is quite clear. What is the relevance of your 4000 odd metres? Longwayround (talk) 08:46, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
Uploading Images
I have Internal photos and no idea of how to post them! (Streethawk, Grimsby (Lincolnshire!) 19/11/05)
- Have a look at Wikipedia:Uploading images. John 12:10, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
Tallest Church in UK
Wikipedia pegs both this structure and the Salisbury Cathedral as the tallest churches in the UK. I recently visited the Salisbury Cathedral and it still makes the claim. Does anyone in actual fact know which is the taller?
Dave
Lincoln is way down the list of tallest UK churches. Salisbury (123m), St Paul's (111m), Liverpool (101m), Norwich (96m) and several others are all taller than Lincoln's 83m.
On a slightly different note, I see this article makes the claim "The central tower rises to 83 m (271 feet) and remains the tallest cathedral tower in Europe today without a spire." This is not true either -- St Paul's and Liverpool Cathedrals do not have spires, and quite possibly several others in England and other countries. I haven't checked too extensively.
Ben Willetts
As far a I recall Lincoln Cathedral was the tallest Cathedral in Europe when it had a spire. Even at this height now that would not be true but back then it was 83.100.154.111 15:32, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
ben... st pauls has a lantern at the top of the dome and besides it doesnt have a cathedral tower. :) it has a dome. there is only one in the uk thats taller and that is liverpool anglican cathedral. furthermore i believe the only other cathedral tower taller in the world is the american national cathedral in washington d.c
"Tallest building in the world" claim
I'm extremely sceptical about the claimed height of 160m (before the spire collapse). Is there some hard evidence for that figure, or was it someone's wild guess? — Opie 05:04, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
why are you sceptical? the smaller malmsebury abbey was 130 metres tall, salisbury was 123. st pauls cathedral was only slightly shorter. york minster had a wooden spire that made it over 100 metres tall too, infact the shorter towers were over 100m tall at lincoln cathedral. its perfectly easy to take a church and double the height from roof to tip by simply adding a spire as chichester or salisbury show today. its much harder to get it standing up as malmesbury shows. everywhere says so except for one victorian author ranging from the cathedrals own records to the guiness book. --unsigned comment by 86.6.160.50
- Why I'm sceptical:
- The spire (above the main tower) would have to be about 40% taller than the one at Salisbury, on a base that is only slightly wider.
- The official cathedral site will only commit to saying that Lincoln Cathedral was the "tallest building in Europe," not the tallest in the world, which it would have been if it were 160m/525ft high (surpassing the Giza pyramid).
- Kendrick's book is the only source I was able to find that mentioned the reliability of the 525-ft figure; he called it "doubtful"
- I'm not saying a 525-ft height is impossible. But since the spire fell down centuries ago and its height can't be directly verified today, it would be nice to know the source of the original measurement/estimate, so that we might know how reliable it is. If you say the height is documented in the cathedral's own records, or is accepted by the Guinness book (I don't remember it being there) then please add the appropriate reference to the article, if you would be so kind.
- --Opie 02:28, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
It's documented records, I'm pretty sure it is, I'll have ago at badgering a tour guide or something next time i'm in the area - it could certainly be one of the highest tops of any being on top of a pretty high hill when you think about it from that perspective, there aint many, if any, that are built on top of hills --Streaky 06:13, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
it IS in the guiness book of world records. you will also find the list of the worlds tallest ever buildings replicated everywhere, for example on skyscraperpage or emporis, skyscrapernews.com has what is i believe the fullest list of britains big churches including ones that dont exist anymore, what happened to lincoln was not uncommon as york minster experienced. the extreme height would explain why it doesnt exist anymore, plenty of extremely tall buildings collapsed because of that! just to emphasise further - http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/bu/?id=138268 "Old St. Paul's Cathedral became the world's tallest building in 1549, when the 160m (525ft) wooden central spire of Lincoln Cathedral fell down. This lasted until the 4th June 1561, when St. Paul's spire was itself felled by lightning and the title passed to Notre-Dame de Strasbourg in Strasbourg." given the tallest buildings in the world were all in europe it WAS the tallest in the world. notre-dame de rouen has a spire of similar dimensions to that of lincoln still standing by the way.
Just to add further to this discussion, the supports for the spire still exist in the tower today and you can see them on the tour of the central tower. They indicate from their dimensions and the weight they can carry that the spire was indeed around 160m tall.
--Gothicform 07:01, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
I have very serious doubts too that the Lincoln Cathedral was over 160metres high. That would make that the spire-construction itself should have been about 77metres high on a floorplan of about 15 by 15 metres. To add to the story, the suggested spire-construction was standing for almost 250years(!). I cant take those claims serious unless someone with an engineering and construction background shows me how it could have been done in 1311 and maintained. No matter what the old documents until 1549 say, this matter needs in my POV serious recalculations nowadays to proof it, before it can enter the wikipedia as a solid fact. 06:29, 28 January 2008 (UTC)sonty567 (architecture student for 5years) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.83.104.161 (talk)
Addon to my above comment : it seems the roofplan of the centraltower is nowadays roughly about 70metres above ground. This would make the suggested wooden spire on that central tower even more doubtfull because that would result in an approximate 90metres high wooden spire on the central towers rooffloorplan of roughly about 15 by 15metres. 83.83.104.161 (talk) 17:19, 28 January 2008 (UTC)sonty567
Having read the above I've moderated the recent qualifications regarding building height to a more neutral tone. The previous remarks of "but this height is regarded as doubtful" imply quite clearly that a consensus exists against the 525ft height, whereas the most basic research reveals the opposite to be true, with widespread agreement on the world record height with the notable exception of Kendrick's opinion. I would suggest the prevalence of references is a better indicator of the truth than a comparative analysis of engineering techniques. As others have said, it collapsed because it was too audacious rather than eminently achievable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.141.235.97 (talk) 11:14, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- It was reputedly the tallest building in the world for 249 years (1300–1549). cites Kendrick's book (which is still under copyright, possibly explaining why it no longer appears in Project Gutenberg, so I shall replace the link with reference to the book.) I cannot, however, find anywhere in the book which makes this or a similar statement. Could someone please find the relevant passage? Longwayround (talk) 08:36, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- For reference, the link I have replaced is [1] Longwayround (talk) 08:41, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
Original source for the 525 feet claim
I think the claim for the highest building since the Pyramids of Giza deserves some better sources than we have now.
Are there any other books or papers on historical research into the Lincoln Cathedral that assessed the credibility of this claim? Because so far we only have the A.F. Kendrick, who calls it doubtful, but gives no further explanation. We also have the other sources that were given in the Wikipedia article but I doubt the authors really verified the claim themselves, since the websites/books are not dedicated to the Lincoln Cathedral.Ckiki lwai (talk) 17:20, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
Too many pictures?
The page feels a little image heavy and really falls apart round about "Modern controversies" - I'd suggest either remove 4 or 5 photos or tag an image gallery onto the end and move all but two pictures into it. (Emperor 03:33, 21 August 2006 (UTC))
Soneone should put a picture of the Linclon Imp in instead of the view form the tower which is sort of out of place ... I think there's one on the Lincoln Imp page. (24.218.139.94 01:15, 5 November 2006 (UTC))
Edit
I have tried to edit and clean up the article as best as possible. I have done the following:
- Reorganised the categories and changed the modern contrv. section to a trivia section, as well as reducing the number of overall sections to address a comment in the discussion. I have also edited the information in those sections.
- Added lots of information to the history section, rewrote it and reorganised it in a more chronological and coherent section - including more detail on St Hugh of Avalon and Eleanor of Castille
- Removed some information on the imp (because it has its own article).
- Created a photos page as suggested above, and moved most of the photos from the article to the photo page.
LordHarris 17:52, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Floor plan
Isn't there also an attached library and chapter house? The floorplan doesn't have them. (24.218.139.94 01:25, 5 November 2006 (UTC))
Reformation?
The History section unfortunately ends before the Reformation. Was there much change or destruction in the cathedral during that time? -- 85.179.175.225 23:45, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Picture of tower please
Given that this was the tallest building in the world when it had its tower, the article could do with a picture of that tower. Beorhtric 20:03, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
- I agree. Surely there must be a drawing of the cathedral with the spire intact. Will Beback talk 18:41, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
- This would definitely be useful, maybe as an "artist's impression" of what he spire might look like today. -- 82.152.200.63 (talk) 18:58, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
Tower, spire
What confusion!
LIncoln was the tallest building in the world, for several hundred years, with Strasburg, Old St Paul's (gone in the 1600s) and a church in Finland(?) coming in behind it. Salisbury was about 150 feet shorter that Lincoln. But Salisbury had the tallest solid masonry spire ever constructed. Not lead over wood and not open latticework but big lumps of stone, perfectly cut and laid, for 404 feet. Salisbury's spire has survived, with some resurfacing, and remortaring, but not reconstruction. It is the supreme masterpiece of 13th century engineering. Most big spires now date from the 1800s.
Lincoln's spire was wood covered with lead. It blew down in a gale. But it had stood for about 300 years. It came down in the 1500s, and there is no picture. But the enormous tower that the spire stood on, 270 feet high, still stands as the tallest church tower in England. It is probably the tallest "central tower" on any church in the world.
Think of this: most towers stand on four solid walls, with a door or two at the bottom. But the great central towers on England's Cathedrals do not stand on four walls. They stand on four feet! In other words, under each of these towers are four big arches, up about 75-80 feet high, and between the arches are piers. The piers are like four huge columns which carry the four corners of the tower. The English were so expert at this that they built huge central towers at Norwich, Durham, Wells, Salisbury, Canterbury, York, Lincoln, Worcester, Gloucester, Lichfield, Chichester, and towers that were not quite so spectaclarly high at some of the others. All these towers are still standing. However, Chichester has a rather nasty mishap- its stone spire suddenly collapsed inwards on itself like an old telescope folding up. It had been standing for about 450 years, before it gave up.
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Lincoln, with the ruins of the bishops palace in front
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The largest church tower in England is carried on four arches.
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Canterbury
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And here we are looking up the tower of Canterbury.
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Salisbury
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This shows the dark Purbec marble shafts under the tower. One of them has bent under the weight.
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The tower at Peterborough is only 143 feet high
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Peterbough. A tower with windows like this is called a "Lantern tower".
English Earthquake?
Has anyone ever heard of an earthquake in England. Certainly Wiki hasn't. If go to "List of Earthquakes" link via the "Earthquake" link, you will see that there is no listing for an earthquake in England at any time. Ever. How then, could the cathedral have been " destroyed by an earthquake about forty years later, in 1185.", I wonder. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.12.252.111 (talk) 01:14, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- Although it's not particularly known for them, there have been plenty of earthquakes in England. Isn't Google is a wonderful tool. Nev1 (talk) 23:04, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, it is! -- Petri Krohn (talk) 05:18, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
General Statement about Pre-Reformation Churches
A reasonably new editor, Woodseats44 (talk) has repeatedly appended the following statement of a very general nature to the summary statement at the top of Lincoln Cathedral: "Like all medieval buildings that are now cathedrals of England, Lincoln Cathedral is Roman Catholic in origin as it predates the Reformation."
This edit has been undone today by three separate editors and, wishing to avoid an edit war, I am requesting that we discuss the matter here.—GrahamSmith (talk) 13:30, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- I would think that this is not really lead material, though could be mentioned in the appropriate place in the history section. Keith D (talk) 13:39, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- I was one of the reverters, so I am against this inclusion. The original editor seems to think it provides balance. Presumably it balances with the statement that it is an Anglican cathedral now. I wonder if s/he is going to change all the other pre-reformation, protestant churches in the world. As a matter of history, I don't think the term Roman Catholic (term) actually existed back then. Myrvin (talk) 13:51, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- I was one of the reverters too and also think this isn't lead material. [S]he's also added the sentence to the Salisbury Cathedral lead, which I shall revert too. Arthur Holland (talk) 14:35, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- Everyone: Please check the comment of the latest edit. Myrvin (talk) 16:29, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
Another editor has amended the opening sentence to read "Lincoln Cathedral (in full The Cathedral Church of the Blessed Virgin Mary of Lincoln, or sometimes St. Mary's Cathedral) is a historic, now Anglican, cathedral in Lincoln". Is this not the same crowbarring-in of a not-that-pivotal fact that we took issue with before? Are we going to do this for every mediaeval church in the country? Thoughts? Arthur Holland (talk) 10:56, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
- I suspect this is the same editor under a different name. S/he has also put in that the first Bishop was catholic. I'll try reverting again. There is some point to this however. People who didn't know about the reformation in England (children, non-Christians, non-british) may think that the cathedral has always been Anglican. Is there some way we can include this information? Myrvin (talk) 13:03, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
The reverting is getting out of hand so I've fully protected the page for three days so efforts can focus on discussion. Nev1 (talk) 19:24, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
- The article on Bishop of Lincoln says:
Perhaps something along these lines could go in the History section. It does go very quiet at the 15th century. Myrvin (talk) 20:46, 29 February 2012 (UTC)Until the 1530s, the bishops were in full communion with the Roman Catholic Church. During the Reformation, they changed their allegiance back and forth between the crown and the papacy. Under Henry VIII and Edward VI, the bishops conformed to the Church of England, but under Mary I they adhered to the Roman Catholic Church. Since the Reformation, the bishops and diocese of Lincoln have been part of the Church of England and the Anglican Communion.
- I agree with Myrvin's suggestion; and the History section is definitely the place, not the header.—GrahamSmith (talk) 21:03, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
- I think this is the way to go too. But therefore it should probably be extended to all churches (or cathedrals at least) which fit this pre-reformation criteria? Not saying that's a bad idea, but will take a bit of work. Arthur Holland (talk) 21:08, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
- And let's put "now Anglican" back into the introduction, as a teaser to entice readers to read on and find out what it was before. Cobulator (talk) 16:24, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- So you're asking to put back in one of the two edits you made that everyone else here objected to before for reasons already given? Just to clarify, can I ask if you accept any of the points we've made, or do you still feel that your original edits were fine as they were? Arthur Holland (talk) 17:20, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- I wasn't given the dignity of having it "objected to" originally, it was simply deleted (along with another change) with a blatantly rude edit summary. And I'm not "asking", I'm offering an opinion. I believe what I added first time around was honest, accurate and harmless. I've not seen any argument that persuades me otherwise. Cobulator (talk) 17:29, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- Right, I'm not going to get into the edit war again, so I'll leave it in for now, but unilaterally reinserting your edit in the face of numerous other editor's concerns the minute the page protection is lifted is not the way to go. Can I ask others to weigh in please. Arthur Holland (talk) 20:24, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
- I have undone edits made by Cobulator (talk), which are at the heart of the discussion below, pending us reaching consensus on the two issues below.—GrahamSmith (talk) 22:30, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
Cobulator has reverted GrahamSmith's revert, can we leave it at that for now. Cobulator shouldn't have restored it while discussion was ongoing, but someone needs to break the cycle and I'd rather not protect the article a second time. The word "now" doesn't change the article drastically and leaving it as it is would not be introducing an innaccuracy. There needs to be a discussion over why that particular word in the lead is perceived to be problematic by some users.
It's just a suggestion, but perhaps the issue would be mute if the lead could be expanded? Five lines isn't really adequate and an expanded lead could remark on what happened to the cathedral during the Reformation. Nev1 (talk) 23:16, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
- I am happy to abide by Nev1's wise suggestion that we leave Lincoln Cathedral as it is for now—GrahamSmith (talk) 23:22, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
- Are you going to try to explain why you undid my other edit of today too, the one about its location? Cobulator (talk) 23:25, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
Right, given that Cobulator has simply reverted to his original edits in the face of various editor's concerns ([s]he's also done this to a number of other Lincolnshire church articles), I'm asking for opinions again from all interested. If we can't get consensus then I believe we have to look at outside opinion (I've not done the dispute resolution thing before so I'm not too familiar with the procedure). Therefore, in my opinion, the "now Anglican" remark in the lead and the "Remigius de Fécamp, a Catholic and the first bishop of Lincoln" remark both feel like they're pushing an agenda and making a meal of an implicit fact. The compromise that was suggested before by Myrvin on 29 Feb seemed to me to be an excellent one. Therefore, can we have a show of hands – who wants to incorporate Cobulator's edits and who wants to go with Myrvin's suggestions? Obviously, I would go with Myrvin's suggestion. Arthur Holland (talk) 12:35, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
- I'm content to let sleeping dogs lie. If Cobulator considers that people interested in reading this article won't know that the first Bishop of Lincoln (like all his successors up to the present day) was of the Catholic faith, then so be it. For the reasons stated below, I am opposed to further changes of any substance, unless they relate specifically to the Cathedral rather tthan the Diocesan Bishop—GrahamSmith (talk) 21:30, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
- Also of course every other early person mentioned in the article should be denoted as such - unless they were Jewish. And every other old religious building. :-) Myrvin (talk) 21:37, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
(od) I notice the phrase "now Anglican" has been deleted from the introduction (with which I wholly concur); as the sentence already said (about a dozen words later) it is in the Church of England neither word seems necessary. Also the contentious “now” was added through an edit war by an editor who is currently doing the same elsewhere, and (despite the discussion above) I don’t think we should be rewarding bad behaviour.
On the compromise proposed above, I would suggest (though it's up to you) that it is hardly necessary, and may well add more heat than light. The implications of the Reformation in England are already discussed at the linked articles, and it doesn’t need repeating in an article about a building as well. In any event, Lincoln cathedral (and all the other pre-Reformation church buildings) belonged to the Church in England, regardless of whether that body owed its allegiance to the Pope or not, while linking them, or suggesting a link, to what the rest of the world calls the Roman Catholic church would be more, not less, confusing. And describing Remigius as a catholic might be fair enough (though still debateable) saying he was Catholic rather less so. Moonraker12 (talk) 14:25, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
Deletion of my additions
Yesterday I edited the article twice. With the first I noted that the first bishop was a Catholic bishop. This is correct and accurate. With the second I qualified the fact that the cathedral is Anglican by inserting the word "now". Later someone rudely blew away both of my edits in one go. Later I put it back, only to have someone else get rid rid of it again. What's the problem? I came on to fix it again today, but the article has now been locked. Why? Cobulator (talk) 14:05, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- Hi Cobulator – it's all discussed in the section above – you'll see a compromise has been suggested and largely supported. We'd welcome your input though.
- Regarding the reversion of your edits – they were broadly the same in tone/meaning as those of editor Woodseats44 who had been blocked the previous day for repeatedly reverting to his edits and refusing to engage with other editors' concerns on the talk page, i.e. edit-warring. I think the suspicion was that you were a sock puppet of his, hence the immediate reversion. As that does not seem to be the case, I apologise for that. We did also ask that you take your concerns to the talk page discussion, which you declined to do.
- Speaking for myself, the concern with your edits was that they came across as pushing a Catholic agenda onto the page. The fact of the cathedral's and first bishop's Catholic status is implicit – it applies to every mediaeval church in the country – and to mention it explicitly in this manner seems to yank the reader's attention onto another issue. I don't dispute the facts at all – everything you've said is totally correct – but I do think the tone and positioning comes off as a little "chippy". I'm not saying this was your intent, but that's how the edits came across to me, hence my concerns.
- As we've suggested above, a compromise wording could go in the main history section of the article, not the lead. Arthur Holland (talk) 14:44, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- Hi Arthur, thanks for the explanation, at least. It looks to me as though the work of "Woodseats44" was attacked in the same way that mine was. I didn't realise, and they possibly didn't either, that you need permission or a stamp of approval for your contributions. I certainly wasn't pushing any agenda, just making the facts clearer. To say it is Anglican doesn't tell the whole story. That it was Catholic for hundreds of years (almost exactly as long as it has been Anglican) before it became Anglican needs to be apparent to any reader, particulary potential tourists and those with no knowledge of English church history. Cobulator (talk) 15:17, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- As the first editor to undo the change that added "Like all medieval buildings that are now cathedrals of England, Lincoln Cathedral is Roman Catholic in origin as it predates the Reformation." to the end of the page's lead section, my edit summary was clear: "Undid revision 479158186 by User:Woodseats44 (talk) - statement of a very general nature, made in good faith, but applicable to all Church of England churches of the same era." and it seems to me that words liked "attacked" are unnecessarily aggressive when used in this context. However, Cobulator (talk) is a relatively new single purpose account and deserves to be cut some slack.
- I would, if possible, like to see both these issues addressed:
- Surely the statement should relate specifically to either (a) ownership of the building; or appointment of its management (that, I think I am correct in saying, became the Dean and Chapter once it was established as a Cathedral Church - which it has not always been); or (c) the source of the liturgy used? And it would probably be better located in the history section
- As the original statement appeared to be applicable to all Church of England churches of the same era, the point made above by Arthur Holland (talk) about incorporating this consistently across all applicable pages should be discused - and I'm not certain this is the right topic for such a wide-ranging discussion about a well-known historical fact that is certainly covered by the main Church of England page.—GrahamSmith (talk) 02:18, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
(od) I'm not sure if you mean User:Cobulator deserves some slack because he/she is a SPA or because they are new; but while we are giving them the benefit of the doubt, it might be worth considering that the IP which made this edit, also made this one, which repeated this. Make of it what you will, Moonraker12 (talk) 14:36, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
Mother Church
The assertion that St Mary's was a Mother Church is odd. The wikilink is no help. Needs a citation? Myrvin (talk) 13:28, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
- I've attempted to clarify which this is referring to, as there may be some confusion with so many churches of that time being dedicated to St. Mary. Please let me know if your source(s) show something different—GrahamSmith (talk) 14:47, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
I've clarified it a bit more. It is important for the article to say this church is in Stow - I've seen it. Also, the article on Mother Church is in such a mess there is no point in people being directed to it. I've removed the wikilink. The term here can only mean the major church of an area, which is only a passing thought in the linked article. Myrvin (talk) 19:44, 10 April 2012 (UTC)