→Countries that are politically part of Europe: Nadia, you're misreading BRD while condescending to others about how they should reread it "in their spare time". Please stop, and revert yourself. |
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::::::No I haven't. No consensus has been established, which explains my contributions to the article as no compromise has been reached even though others have called for a compromise before. Anyway, let's stick to the matter in hand. [[User:Kutsuit|--Nadia (Kutsuit)]] ([[User talk:Kutsuit|talk]]) 12:51, 20 June 2014 (UTC) |
::::::No I haven't. No consensus has been established, which explains my contributions to the article as no compromise has been reached even though others have called for a compromise before. Anyway, let's stick to the matter in hand. [[User:Kutsuit|--Nadia (Kutsuit)]] ([[User talk:Kutsuit|talk]]) 12:51, 20 June 2014 (UTC) |
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{{od}} Nadia, you refer repeatedly to [[WP:BRD]] here on talk and in [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Largest_cities_in_Europe&diff=613672371&oldid=613671472 edit summaries], but you're misconstruing it, as several people have been telling you. The onus was clearly on ''you'' to hold off reverting when your [[WP:bold]] edit was reverted, and of taking it to talk to try to gain consensus. Let me lay it out for you: |
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BRD "nutshell": {{tq|Making '''[[WP:BOLD|bold edits]]''' is encouraged, as it will result in either improving an article, or stimulating discussion. Therefore, if your edit gets '''[[WP:REVERT|revert]]ed''', do not revert again. Instead, use the opportunity to begin a '''[[WP:Discussion|discussion]]''' with the interested parties to establish '''[[consensus]]'''.}} |
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More fully further down: |
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{{tq|[[WP:Discussion|'''Discuss''']] the edit, and the reasons for the edit, on the article's talk page. Do not continue to revert, which is the beginning of [[WP:EW|edit-warring]]. Leave the article in the condition it was in before the Bold edit was made (often called the ''[[status quo ante]]''). When the discussion has improved understanding, [[WP:EDITCONSENSUS|attempt a new edit]] that may be acceptable to all participants in the discussion.}} |
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You've been edit warring to enforce your opinion about "Europe" and your misreading of WP:BRD. Please revert yourself, and don't reinsert your edit until you've gained consensus for it. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|talk]] 13:18, 20 June 2014 (UTC). |
Revision as of 13:18, 20 June 2014
Ankara
Should not be on this list. It is simply not in Europe. It is not politically in Europe, it is not geographically in Europe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lucius Winslow (talk • contribs) 15:34, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
- I agree, and it's also questionable whether Istanbul should have its entire population represented rather than just those on the European side. Europe is not some socio-economic construct that is open to interpretation, it is a preceisely defined geographical entity. Ankara and the eastern part of Istanbul are simply not in that geographical entity by any definition I know of. — Amakuru (talk) 11:08, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
Probably, Istanbul should not be on the list. The fact is that some of the city is actually in Asia, should disqualify it from entry. Afterall this is a list about cities entirely situated in Europe, not a list of cities partially in Europe and Asia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.194.205.65 (talk) 03:53, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
Athens
Athens is missing.
- you are correct that Athens is a major city (3-4 mio) but this is a list of the city proper, only the administrative part of the city, and so Athens in this list would contain 664,046 within its administrative limits and a land area of 39 km2 (15 sq mi). Lactasamir (talk) 11:35, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
- Given the arbitrariness of the definition of "city proper" and "urban" and "metropolitan" areas, and the fact that they are quite different concepts in different countries, and since Athens has an urban and metropolitan population of over 3 million, it should be included Non credo (talk) 15:28, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
Baku, Tbilisi, Yerevan, Istanbul
Note that Baku, Tbilisi and Yerevan are not in Europe and should be removed. Armenia has no land that falls within Europe. If these are going to be included, then all of Anatolia would have to be included as well (including Ankara, Izmir, Bursa, etc). Non credo (talk) 15:20, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
- They are all recognized as European states by Council of Europe and the European Union. So is Turkey.[1]Cite error: There are
<ref>
tags on this page without content in them (see the help page).[2] 178.155.238.96 (talk) 15:25, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
- In that case, the remaining cities in Turkey should be included in the list. (As listed in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_in_Turkey) However, I would disagree: this Wikipedia page is entitled "Largest cities in Europe" and not "Largest cities in the Council of Europe or the European Union". Europe as a geographical definition ends at the Caucasus, and consequently Baku, Tbilisi and Yerevan are not part of it. Non credo (talk) 15:20, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
- They are part of Europe and recognized as that by the Council of Europe and the European Union and many other institutions. furthermore they are all members of all European sport associations like football, Wrestling, Weightlifting and boxing and so on.
- They are also members of major European culturel events as the Eurovision song contest.
- You say that this is not a list of "Largest cities in the Council of Europe or the European Union" well you are right, it is not a list of personel views either, when large international institutions and sport associations reconize these countries as part of Europe, then that is what we need to reconize.
- Regarding the other large cities in Turkey maybe they should be on the list, the reason for Istanbul is that the city was founded on the European side 2600 years ago and it has always been a European city, and even today more than 9 mio people lives on the European side in the city. The urban area on the Anatolian side where not Istanbul, but a town called Chrysopolis (today Uskudar) and only later recognized as a suburb.
- But as i say maybe Ankara and the other cities should be on the list if more people on this talk page agress, but for now i don't see the need for it. Lactasamir (talk) 11:27, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
- Alright, if that is the view then fine. But for consistency, the definition of Europe used here should be stated clearly in the beginning, and Anatolian cities in Turkey should be included as well. Non credo (talk) 15:20, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
Caucasus region, according to the many sources, is part of Europe. Subtropical-man (talk) 15:26, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
Yekaterinburg also is not in Europe but in the Asian part of Russia. And Stambul is only half in Europe, so only the European side should be taken into account for this list.--83.32.84.197 (talk) 19:39, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
- Yekaterinburg is located on the border of Europe and Asia, and therefore are welcome on the list. Lactasamir (talk) 19:21, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
Ankara, Baku etc. are not situated in the geographical Europe... Council of Europe, UEFA etc. don't matter: they are not based on geography, but on politics. Would you consider Vladivostok, on the shores of the Pacific Ocean, a European city? Would you consider Cayenne, in French Guyana in South America, a European city? Israel is a member of UEFA, so would you consider Jerusalem or Tel Aviv to be European cities? If Istanbul is included in the list, it should be included only based on the population of the city's European side. --Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 15:09, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
- I am okay with removing Ankara, this city is entirely located in Anatolia, but the other cities are recognized by all parameters as European cities, and all of Istanbul is a European city, fact! And regarding that the views of Council of Europe and UEFA do not matters, then you are wrong, personal views on the other hand do not matters. Lactasamir (talk) 19:18, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
- You are wrong. The borders of geographic Europe are generally considered to be these: "A commonly accepted division between Asia and Europe ... is formed by the Ural Mountains, Ural River, Caspian Sea, Caucasus Mountains, and the Black Sea with its outlets, the Bosporus and Dardanelles." (National Geographic Atlas of the World (7th ed.). Washington, DC: National Geographic. 1999. ISBN 0-7922-7528-4. "Europe" (pp. 68–9)). This is a neutral definition from a respected source, not related to political organisations, based on pure geopgraphy. That is also the definition used in the Wikipedia article Europe (see map), and since this article is related to it, this article should use that definition as well. That definition is the most common one. Note that according to that definition the boundary is in the Caucasus mountains, while Baku, Yerevan and Tbilisi are all situated south of them. Thus your assertion that they are situated in Europe by "all parameters" is false. Their inclusion is merely your personal view. Membership in the Council of Europe or UEFA is not based on geography and membership in those organisations is not a testimony of belonging to geographical Europe any more than EU membership is. As noted, French Guayana is an integral part of France and thus of the Council of Europe, but would you say that its capital is a European city? USA is also an observer member of the Council. (Belarus, on the other hand, is not a member of the Council of Europe, yet it is situated in Europe.) Israel is a full member of UEFA, so would you include Jerusalem in this list of European cities? All these organisations were founded in the 20th century, so are you claiming that Europe didn't exist before that? And regarding Istanbul: you say that it is a European city in its entirety, but the officials of the city disagree with you. On the official English language website of the city Istanbul is described thusly: "The Western part of the city is in Europe, and the Eastern is in Asia." And if you're fine with removing Ankara, then why did you restore it? In conclusion, the title of the article is related to Europe as a geographical concept. If you want to create an article titled "Largest cities in the Council of Europe" or "Largest cities in UEFA", you are welcome to do so, but this article is not either of them. --Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 10:21, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
- It is not me that put Ankara on the list in the first place, so the person who put it on the list can remove it, I simple just reverted the article. And regarding this discussion we will not reach a common understanding, sadly. But to dispute the neutrality of the article are simple just wrong. Turkey and the three Caucasus states are recognized as being located in Europe and so they are on this list. have a nice day :) Lactasamir (talk) 12:49, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
- Concerning your first sentence, see WP:OWN: no single person owns the article or any individual parts of it. Everyone has a right to edit. You say that the cities in question "are recognized" as being located in Europe, but I have provided proof to the contrary. If you decline to respond to my arguments in detail, I will restore the version of article that respects the geopgraphic boundaries of Europe. --Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 13:02, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
- Hello my friend :) do not start a edit war, if you read all comments on the talk page you will find the answer you are looking for. but as you can see in the article for Caucasus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasus you can see that the Caucasus states are located both in Europe and Asia, so they belong on the list. These states and cities are also on other Wikipedia articles regarding Europe, see below.
- List of metropolitan areas in Europe - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_metropolitan_areas_in_Europe
- Largest urban areas of the European Union as Non EFTA Countries - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Largest_urban_areas_of_the_European_Union
- Regions of Europe - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regions_of_Europe
- Eastern Europe - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Europe
- So these cities are on other Wikipedia list of Europe, so they are also on this article. You can always find sources placing them in Western Asia, but these states are transcontinental and belongs also in Europe. I have nothing more to say. Lactasamir (talk) 13:43, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
- "These states are transcontinental and belongs also in Europe". This argument is fundamentally off the point, since it is not the states, but the cities that are being discussed here. Russia is transcontinental yet nobody argues that Vladivostok is in Europe. — In general, if a source says that country X has an European part and an Asian part, it does not mean that the cities in its Asian part are suddenly in Europe (or vice versa). For example, you cite Eastern Europe. The first map there, File:Europe subregion map UN geoschme.svg concerning UN statistical regions, quite explicitly divides the transcontinental countries into two parts: for example "Countries of Western Asia with partial territory in Eastern Europe: Georgia and Azerbaijan" and "Asian portions of these countries". Tbilisi and Baku, located south of the Caucasus Mountains, are clearly in that latter part in the map. So, just as an example, this particular map lends no support to placing Tbilisi and Baku in Europe. Furthermore, the article never even mentions Tbilisi and Baku, so I find it rather odd to cite it here. --Jmk (talk) 14:06, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
- There is a difference between the Caucasus as a geo-political area and the Caucasus as a geographical mountain range. The Caucasus article only says that the geo-political area is located "at the border of Europe and Asia". This is because the mountain range is usually considered to be the boundary between Europe and Asia (see the sources I have previously provided). While Chechnya, Dagestan etc. are located on the northern side of the mountains, Georgia, Azerbaijan and Armenia are located south of the mountains. This is reflected in the map used in the article Europe. The Eastern Europe article only says that the Caucasus states are "sometimes" included in Eastern Europe - "sometimes" is not the same as "usually", and the article includes this map based on UN sources. That map does not include the three transcaucasian states in Eastern Europe. While the map recognizes that the northernmost small portions of Azerbaijan and Georgia may be included, the capitals of those countries are not located in the said portions. In a similar fashion the CIA World Factbook uses this division of European sub-regions, and leaves the transcaucasian states out of it. The most important other Wikipedia article is the article "Europe", since this article's title is directly associated with it. And from this map you can see the prevailing definition of geopgraphic Europe used in Wikipedia. Regarding your last statement, Wikipedia policy demands discussion if the reverting of a version is called into question. Since you have now said that you do not intend to engage in further discussion and since you have declined to answer many of my arguments and questions, I have for my part fulfilled the expectation of proper procedure, and I can thus proceed to edit the article again. --Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 14:20, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
- No consensus, but the list must stay as it is :) Lactasamir (talk) 14:18, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
- There never was a consensus to include Ankara, Baku etc. in the first place. --Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 14:20, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
- I think after this discussion we may safely remove Ankara, Baku et cetera. Would you consider keeping Istanbul however? I don't see why a city would have to be "entirely" within Europe in order to be listed here. — Concerning Yekaterinburg I'm a bit confused. The city article says it is "on the eastern side of the Ural Mountains" which would place it completely on the Asian side under the conventional definition. Any insights on this? --Jmk (talk) 14:26, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
- Istanbul is a different case than Ankara or Baku. After all, the city (Byzantion/Constantinople/Istanbul) was originally situated entirely on the European side, and only later expanded into the Asian side. But its rank on the list is affected depending on if count only the European side or not. --Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 14:39, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
- I would rank it according to the European side population (if it is known to reasonable accuracy), then add a note about the total city population. --Jmk (talk) 14:41, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
- Here the city's European side population is mentioned to be 8,963,431 in 2011. The source is said to be this official statistic. --Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 15:18, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
- I would rank it according to the European side population (if it is known to reasonable accuracy), then add a note about the total city population. --Jmk (talk) 14:41, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
- Istanbul is a different case than Ankara or Baku. After all, the city (Byzantion/Constantinople/Istanbul) was originally situated entirely on the European side, and only later expanded into the Asian side. But its rank on the list is affected depending on if count only the European side or not. --Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 14:39, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
- I think after this discussion we may safely remove Ankara, Baku et cetera. Would you consider keeping Istanbul however? I don't see why a city would have to be "entirely" within Europe in order to be listed here. — Concerning Yekaterinburg I'm a bit confused. The city article says it is "on the eastern side of the Ural Mountains" which would place it completely on the Asian side under the conventional definition. Any insights on this? --Jmk (talk) 14:26, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
- There never was a consensus to include Ankara, Baku etc. in the first place. --Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 14:20, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
- All of Istanbul population belongs on the list, it is one Metropolitan municipality and not two. Lactasamir (talk) 15:56, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
- The sources speak for itself. Baku - Yerevan - Tbilisi are on the other European list, and therefore also here. have a nice day :) Lactasamir (talk) 14:26, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
The list stay as it is, there are no consensus to remove the Caucacus cities, and off course Istanbul belongs on the list. Lactasamir (talk) 14:30, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
- Stating one's opinion is one thing and providing arguments for it is another. Above you have clearly said that you are not interested in discussing the issue. And there wasn't a consensus to include Ankara, Baku etc. in the first place. --Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 14:39, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
- You are twisting my words, you are claiming that I am are not interested in discussing the issue, well what are doing here then? we are discussing the issue, all I am saying is that there are none consensus to remove the cities from the article, and we can continue to discuss this, but we will not reach a agreement, so lets stop it here, and lets be friends :) if more users of Wikipedia see a need for a change, then the discussion can continue on a later point. Have a nice day :) Lactasamir (talk) 15:56, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
Since there is no consensus to include all-Asian cities, I have removed them. I left Istanbul as is, in the first position, but it could be changed to second place if we cite the European part population. --Jmk (talk) 17:45, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
- There are no consensus to remove these cities from the list. Lactasamir (talk) 18:05, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
- Hello my friend :) I am always nice. Read all the sources. Lactasamir (talk) 19:17, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
- You are the one who has refused to answer to arguments backed by sources. You can't just keep edit-warring without discussion. Stating your opinion without proper arguments and disregarding other users' points and questions is not real discussion. --Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 19:36, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
- Read the sources :) and all the other articles where these cities are included into Europe, as seen above. Lactasamir (talk) 19:46, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
- Looking at the sources, they're not very strong ones. UEFA includes some non-European countries for political and financial reasons. The Eurovision song contest is for countries in the European Broadcasting Union, which, despite the name, includes several countries outside what's commonly considered to be Europe. Israel regularly take part, Morocco entered in the past and Tunisia and Lebanon entered then made last minute withdrawals, while Jordan, Egypt, Libya and Algeria are all eligible to participate but haven't done so. (The Arabic speaking countries usually avoid the contest because they don't want to show the Israeli entry.) Istanbul should be included, as it's mostly in Europe but I think the best solution here would be to omit Baku, Yerevan and Tblisi, certainly from the table. If better sources estabishing that some institutions consider them European can be found, then a note in the text giving their population and ambiguous status would be sufficient. Valenciano (talk) 19:57, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
- If better sources estabishing that some institutions consider them European can be found, then a note in the text giving their population and ambiguous status would be sufficient.
- I think you are right Valenciano, these large international institutions consider the three Caucasus states (and Turkey) as being part of Europe.
- • Unesco World Heritage Site Europe and North America - http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/?search=&search_by_country=&type=&videos=®ion=1&order
- • UN The UN refugee Agency UNHCR United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees - http://www.unhcr.org/pages/49e48d2e6.html
- • WHO World Health Organization WHO Europe - http://www.euro.who.int/en/countries
- • Assembly of European Regions (AER) - http://www.aer.eu/what-is-aer/members-and-partners/member-regions.html
- • European Youth Parliament - http://www.eypej.org/page.3.819.Contact-National-EYP.html Lactasamir (talk) 20:27, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
- Those organisations don't base their actions on geography any more than the Eurovision Song Contest does. Did you notice that the WHO list includes Kyrgyztan and Tajikistan among others? And you still consider it a good source for geography? This Wikipedia article concerns itself with geographical Europe, not political institutions like the EU or the CoE etc. Besides, the UN geoscheme excludes the South Caucasus from the definition of Europe (map). When dealing with geography, sources that deal with pure geography instead of politics are the best. Anatolia has never been considered a part of the geograchical Europe. All those organisations you have listed now and previously were founded in the 20th century, so I repeat my earlier question, which you haven't answered: do you think Europe didn't exist before the 20th century? If you admit that the concept of Europe existed before the 20th century, you cannot possibly consider 20th century political or cultural organisations to be the highest authority on the defition of a very old geographical concept. Also, tell me whether you consider Vladivostok to be a European city or not. --Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 00:30, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
- Apart from the problem that those lists are not purely geographical, they also are fundamentally off the point since they are about countries, not cities. For example, the Unesco World Heritage Site has a region called "Europe and North America", which contains all of Russia. It is obvious for practical reasons that such an organization may want to operate with whole countries, instead of splitting them, thus the regional boundaries are only practical approximations (at best; or arbitrary constructs, at worst). If we took the regions at face value, we would have to conclude that Lake Baikal and Volcanoes of Kamchatka are in Europe. I do not believe such conclusion would be generally accepted. If you feel otherwise, please say so and state your reasons. --Jmk (talk) 06:42, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
- Likewise, if we took the WHO regions as an authority about geographical areas, then Morocco, Iran and Pakistan are in the Eastern Mediterranean: [1]; while Mongolia is in the Western Pacific. I think this clearly demonstrates that these regions have absolutely no informational value for the subject at hand. --Jmk (talk) 07:11, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
- These institutions are valid sources, if they include These countries into Europe, they should be on the list. Based on geography or politics, it does not matter, what matter is they include them to Europe. Maybe as a as a compromise we should not base the list on geography, but on countries recognized as being located fully or partly in Europe, besides that, the article do not at any point say that this list is based on geography. So as a compromise this should be a list of countries recognized as being located fully or partly in Europe. Lactasamir (talk) 12:28, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
- First of all, "compromise" does not mean that you get all you want, especially since you're going against the consensus here. And "the article does not say" is not a valid argument, since you keep reverting the article. The article should be based on geography because the article's name is "Largest cities in Europe", not "Largest cities in organisation X". As stated, you are welcome to create new articles for other purposes, but you can't change the nature of this article. That would be comparable to rewriting the article "Europe" based on the assumption that EU and Europe were the same thing. "Being located in Europe" is what geography deals with. Political and cultural organisations don't get to decide, where the geographic boundary of Europe is; they don't always abide by geographical boundaries, as we have shown you. Rather they stretch the boundaries for conveniency or for cultural reasons. And as stated, we're not talking about countries but about cities. Again, do you think Vladivostok (Russia is CoE member), Jerusalem (Israel is UEFA member), Casablanca (Morocco is EBU member) or Bishkek (Kyrgyztan is listed on that WHO/Europe list you linked to) are European cities? --Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 12:46, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
Again twisting my words, if the countries are recognized as being European, then the cities are located in recognized European states. If you do not recognize these institutions, then what? You do not recognized international institutions, and you do not want to compromise. they are recognized as being European states by these institutions,
- • UN The UN refugee Agency UNHCR United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees
- • WHO World Health Organization
- • Assembly of European Regions
- • European Youth Parliament
- • European Union
- • council of europe
- And many more, and still you will not accept it. Lactasamir (talk) 13:33, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
- Will you please answer Jaakko Sivonen's question: Do you think Vladivostok, Jerusalem, Casablanca and Bishkek are European cities? Is there a reason why you are refraining from answering this? --Jmk (talk) 14:01, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
- Lactasamir doesn't appear willing to answer. He is deliberately avoiding respoding to arguments and questions. I suppose he know's he can't win the argument. He is just recycling the same old statements, which have already been proven to be untenable. Political and cultural organisations don't have anything to do with geography, as proven by the example above. Lactasamir is discussing entirely beside the point: he keeps listing sources, but none of them are related to geography, which is supposed to be the basis of this article ("Largest cities in Europe"; again, not "Largest cities in organisation X"). We have provided sources related directly to geography, but Lactasamir has decided to ignore them entirely. Reading both the new discussion and the older messages, it is clear that both the arguments and the consensus of users is against Lactasamir's stance. --Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 23:48, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
- Will you please answer Jaakko Sivonen's question: Do you think Vladivostok, Jerusalem, Casablanca and Bishkek are European cities? Is there a reason why you are refraining from answering this? --Jmk (talk) 14:01, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
- I don't see much compromise building as long as Lactasamir refuses to discuss the relevance and extent of the "sources". Note that none of the sources provided by Lactasamir is directly relevant to the question of Largest cities in Europe, nor do they even claim so. They do not discuss cities, nor lists of cities. While they are certainly valid sources for what they do contain (such as "what countries are members of the Eurovision"), they are pretty much irrelevant here, or at best, their possible relevance would have to be established by discussion. But that discussion is going nowhere as long as Lactasamir refuses to discuss it. — For what it's worth, it is easy to find sources that directly address the issue at hand, namely lists of cities in Europe, such as [2] (which never mentions Tbilisi, Baku or Yerevan). I am not claiming that this particular source is definitive or official, merely pointing out that there exist sources directly relevant, so it is not necessary to perform original research as Lactasamir seems to attempt. --Jmk (talk) 06:53, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
As a compromise I have now included a note that various cities such as Vladivostok and Casablanca could be included if one did not list "cities in Europe" but "cities in countries partly in Europe" or "cities in countries that are members of an Euro organization". Such cities clearly do not belong to the main list since they are not uncontroversially "cities in Europe". --Jmk (talk) 07:21, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
Caucasus region (including Baku, Tbilisi & Yerevan), according to the part (not all) of geographic sources (not to mention political, cultural), is part of Europe - it is enough. There is no one version of the borders of Europe and Asia. You can make a note in the article that many sources shows these cities in Asia. Istanbul according to the all standard sources lies in Europe, eventually also in Asia, so - Instanbul must to be in this article. Rest of cities of Turkey (i.e. Ankara) should be removed from the article. Subtropical-man (talk) 08:41, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
- Would you like to cite those sources? FWIW CIA Factbook says Armenia is fully in Southwestern Asia, Azerbaijan mostly there but "with a small European portion" (Baku is not in that portion), and Georgia likewise mostly in Southwestern Asia with a very small European portion (Tbilisi is not in that portion) though it "views itself part of Europe". --Jmk (talk) 09:23, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
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Semi-protection: High level of IP vandalism. Lactasamir (talk) 12:17, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
I Ask for semi-protection for this article, a unregistered user continous to vandalism this article claiming Turkish propaganda and That Istanbul (Turkey) And Armenia - Georgia - Azerbaijan in the Caucasus region are not a part of Europe. These countries are all recognized states As European by the European Union and they are all members of the Council of Europe, "The Council of Europe is an international organization promoting co-operation between all countries of Europe in the areas of legal standards, human rights, democratic development, the rule of law and cultural co-operation".
Furthermore Turkey are a candidate country to join the EU, see Accession of Turkey to the European Union. So there are no reason not to in include these countries to Europe, they are also on all other articles recarding Europe in wikipedia. Lactasamir (talk) 12:17, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
Japan is a Candidate into the Council of Europe. So according to your logic, once Japan joins it, it becomes European? I'm sorry but the Council of Europe are just some unelected bureaucrats, who can make arbitrary decisions, regardless whether the population it affects wants it or not.
In 1957, even Algeria was part of the EEC, the predecessor to the EU. Again, just something like that does not make a country European. Politics should not be a consideration whether some place is part of Europe or not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.241.65.204 (talk) 14:24, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
- I strongly object to the above unfounded and incorrect allegations. My suggestions are for the improvement of the quality and consistency of this page, and I am including my comments in this Talk page, and am not vandalising the actual page. I am saying: 1) state explicitly the definition of Europe that you are using, and 2) include Anatolian Turkish cities if you are going to include all Council of Europe countries. Non credo (talk) 15:25, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
- No, Turkey is NOT considered "European" by the EU, and as for the "Council of Europe", it is NOT the EU. There's a distinct difference between the two. This article should contain cities that are within the EU, the actual definition of Europe, or as one previous poster said, why not include Sydney and NYC. Spouting this kind of inaccuracy is a nonsense and backed with no evidence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.212.75.70 (talk) 13:32, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
- "This article should contain cities that are within the EU"?? what?? so you are saying that Island-Norway-Switzerland-Monaco-Andorra-Liechtenstein-San Marino-Vatican State-Ukraine-Belarus- most of ex Yugoslavia-Albania-Russia-Moldova and so on, should not be on this list because it is not Europe? The European union are not all of Europe, far from it. more than 230 million people lives outside the EU in Europe. and we all know that the EU and the Council of Europe are not the same! and yes Turkey are considered European by the EU, why do you think Turkey are a candidate country to join? Lactasamir (talk) 11:01, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
- Hello, it is not your contributions :) but another user who constantly claims "Turkish propaganda" and posting incorrect information without source, and that is not a way to behave on Wikipedia.
- Again regarding the other large cities of Turkey i think more people on this talk page should agree before we add them. Lactasamir (talk) 14:22, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
If Ankara is included, then Sydney, Montreal, Toronto, New York, Sao Paul, Buenos Aires etc. should be included as they are also "European" cities, even much more than Ankara (which culture is Central Asian)--83.32.84.197 (talk) 19:41, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
Culturally, Historically, and Ethnically, Turkey and Turkish people have nothing to do with Europe. Anyone who has ever picked up a history book shall clearly see, that during history, Turkey's goals was to end Europe and it's culture. I see it as rather unwise to claim that's something which should make Turkey belong to Europe. The Turkish language, customs, culture are very different from any European country, whereas it has many similarities to Middle Eastern countries, which is where Turkey actually belongs. If Turkish cities are included, then we may was well extend Europe's definition all the way to Afghanistan or something, because at this point there is no meaning to the definition of Europe anymore. As far as I recall, the opinion of the general populace has never been asked regards Turkey, and just because a few people at the Council of Europe say Turkey is Europe it doesn't make it so. It is their opinion, but is not some legally binding law that you must consider Turkey European. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.241.65.204 (talk) 23:08, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
- Hello my friend :) with that kind of logic I can not help you. read the text before the article.
Turkey is recognized as a European country by all parameters, and Istanbul, are now, and have always been a European city. Lactasamir (talk) 10:46, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
Hi to you too buddy :) Before I reply to your response, I must beforehand tell you that by no means do I want to offend you, or the country of Turkey, or Turkish people. I have read the text, and this makes this article a source that loses credibility, if it includes literal nonsense. Istanbul has ceased being a European city the very moment it has lost it's native European populace (i.e. the Byzantines are extinct, and as far as I'm aware, Turkic languages and ethnicities are NOT European by nature, therefore there is nothing left in Istanbul that connects it to Europe), and has been replaces with Asians. Turkey, by no "parameters" is a European country. While Constantinople has been a European city, the population that now occupies that place is a new civilization living in the ruins/remnants of an extinct civilization. I seriously advise you to go and pick up some History books, and also perhaps some books about linguistics and culture, and hopefully that will reveal to you, why Turkey has nothing to do with Europe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.241.65.204 (talk) 14:05, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
Istanbul
Istanbul is recognized as being European and Asian. 2/3 of the people are in the European bit. That means that of the 13.9 million, 9.3 million are in Europe. That would make it the second largest city in Europe. It should definitely be on the list! Wallie (talk) 12:57, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Protection
I've just fully protected this page for three days due to the ongoing edit warring. Please discuss the issue on the talk page instead of continually reverting. Mark Arsten (talk) 19:46, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
- Thank you my friend :) and lets stop this edit war. Lactasamir (talk) 19:56, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
- You are the one, who's been edit warring against consensus, even to 3RR level. Wikipedia's page protection policy does not consider, which is the correct version. --Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 20:08, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
While the article is being protected, I would now like to see arguments one way or the other. "Read the sources" is not an argument if the sources do not contain what is claimed; "the list stays as it is" is not an argument either. — For the record, I checked what Encyclopaedia Britannica, article Europe says: The eastward limits now adopted by most geographers exclude the Caucasus region and encompass a small portion of Kazakhstan... Further in the Caucasus article: The watershed of the Greater Caucasus, the backbone of the system, traditionally has been part of the line dividing Europe and Asia; but the whole region is so subject to Asian influences that there is now general agreement on assigning the Caucasus to Asia. — As seen in a map, Tbilisi is well south of the Greater Caucasus, thus clearly in Asia even under the "traditional" definition. What next, "read the sources" again perhaps? --Jmk (talk) 08:37, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
Yekaterinburg
If Yekaterinburg is to be added, I would like to see first some good sources that clearly place it in Europe. As I understand the city is on the eastern side of the mountains. Sources that say it is "on the border" are no good. I can cite sources that say San Diego and Tijuana are both "on the border" (of USA and Mexico) yet clearly San Diego is not in Mexico and Tijuana is not in USA. --Jmk (talk) 15:00, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
- USA and Mexico is countries with clear boundaries, there are not continental unclear boundaries
- San Diego lies at the border with Mexico (in USA), Tijuana lies at the border with USA (in Mexico), these concepts are different from "on the border of Europe and Asia".
- Also, there is another city on the border of Europe and Asia - Istanbul, give an example USA or Mexico - this is nonsense. Subtropical-man (talk) 17:23, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
- Istanbul is irrelevant here since a large part of it is uncontroversially on the European side of the strait. What part of Yekaterinburg are you saying is on the European side of the mountains? Please be specific. --Jmk (talk) 20:58, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
- "What part of Yekaterinburg..." - 1% or 80%, it does not matter. If even a tiny part lies in Europe, should be on list of cities in Europe. Subtropical-man (talk) 21:46, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
- Istanbul is irrelevant here since a large part of it is uncontroversially on the European side of the strait. What part of Yekaterinburg are you saying is on the European side of the mountains? Please be specific. --Jmk (talk) 20:58, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
Ancyra
Why ancyra is not in the list? 95.114.83.114 (talk) 17:19, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
- Because Anatolia (i.e. Asia Minor) is not Europe. Read the previous discussion. --Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 16:50, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
Move
I think this article should be moved to List of largest cities in Europe by population as per the names of similar lists. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.30.43.214 (talk) 21:51, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
Countries that are politically part of Europe
I added Ankara, Baku, Tbilisi, Yerevan and other cities to a separate list under a new section as I don't think it's fair to exclude cities of countries whose borders lie within the political boundaries of Europe. There's no harm in adding them at all. --Nadia (Kutsuit) (talk) 10:46, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
- First of all, per WP:BRD it is the original version that has to stay, not the changed one.
- Now my objections:
- A list article like this one contains a list, not a collection of lists.
- The scope of this list is very well defined: it is Europe in its geographical boundaries, and this is explicitly mentioned in the introduction. The "political boundaries" of Europe are POV, and this is the reason why here in the past there have been so many edit wars. If you need to create a new list, (something like "Largest Cities in the countries belonging to the Council of Europe") feel free to do that, but please don't change this article.
- This is a list about the largest cities, so many of the cities that you added are not entitled to stay in the list, since they are too small.
- Valletta and Reykjavik are definitely in Europe (the first is capital of a state - Malta - in the EU and in the Eurozone) so they should stay in the first list (but they cannot, since they are too small). Alex2006 (talk) 11:36, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
- First of all, BRD policy dictates that any version can be reverted and discussed on the talk page. When members fail to discuss their reverts on the talk page, they have automatically conceded this formality to whoever follows the policy properly. There's no such thing as an "original" version on Wikipedia.
- Secondly, this article can contain either a list or multiple lists. There's nothing in any Wikipedia guideline that wouldn't permit this article to have more than one list.
- Thirdly, the criterion of this article has not been clearly defined, which is exactly why edit wars have occurred in the past. The political boundaries of Europe aren't a "POV" anymore than the geographic boundaries of Europe are. As a case in point, you mistakenly think that the island nations of Iceland and Malta are part of the traditional definitions of geographic Europe, which they are not.
- Lastly, most of the cities I added can easily find their way to the top of the first table, so your last argument is non sequitur. --Nadia (Kutsuit) (talk) 11:55, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
- No, BRD says that in case of discussion one should revert to the last stable version. From BRD page:
Leave the article in the condition it was in before the Bold edit was made (often called the status quo ante).
So you are going against BRD, not me. About the lists, you are right, I checked now, my fault. The geographical boundaries of Europe are uniquely defined, since Geography is a science. It is your task to find reliable geographical source that say that Malta and Iceland does not belong to Europe geographically. The last objection does not make any sense. Anyway, you should look for consensus about your edits, not me, since you are going against established consensus (see talk page above). Alex2006 (talk) 12:06, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
- I'm not going against anything. Had you reverted the article and discussed it on the talk page, I wouldn't have restored the article to my version. Instead, you ignored BRD formalities so I took it upon myself to apply them first. In this case, I started the discussion after reverting your changes to the previous version. That's how it's done. You can read the BRD page in detail in your spare time and see for yourself.
Anyway, going back to the matter in hand, the geographic boundaries of Europe aren't agreed upon either. Yes, geography is a science but science isn't black-and-white. It's not my task to find a source that says Iceland and Malta aren't in geographic Europe at all. Even in the Wikipedia article on Europe, you will clearly see that the traditional geographic extent of Europe only covered the pensinular landmass of western Eurasia. The islands are obviously excluded. Malta has been considered part of North Africa for more than six hundred years, in case you didn't know. Anyway, that's not the point of the discussion. You cant revert an article version just because you didn't like it. You have to provide arguments as to why you're against adding the aforementioned cities until a consensus can be reached. I've made my rebuttals and stated that those cities belong to countries that are politically part of Europe. The political boundaries of Europe include island countries such as Cyprus and Iceland, as well as countries at the crossroads of Europe and Asia, such as Turkey, the Caucasus states and Russia. The list I added to the article is in a separate section and does not affect the first list at all. If anything, my additions to the article are a form of compromise for all the edit wars that have been ongoing in this article for the last two years. By having two lists, everyone is happy and edit wars can finally be put to rest. --Nadia (Kutsuit) (talk) 12:26, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
- I'm not going against anything. Had you reverted the article and discussed it on the talk page, I wouldn't have restored the article to my version. Instead, you ignored BRD formalities so I took it upon myself to apply them first. In this case, I started the discussion after reverting your changes to the previous version. That's how it's done. You can read the BRD page in detail in your spare time and see for yourself.
- No I haven't. No consensus has been established, which explains my contributions to the article as no compromise has been reached even though others have called for a compromise before. Anyway, let's stick to the matter in hand. --Nadia (Kutsuit) (talk) 12:51, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
Nadia, you refer repeatedly to WP:BRD here on talk and in edit summaries, but you're misconstruing it, as several people have been telling you. The onus was clearly on you to hold off reverting when your WP:bold edit was reverted, and of taking it to talk to try to gain consensus. Let me lay it out for you:
BRD "nutshell": Making bold edits is encouraged, as it will result in either improving an article, or stimulating discussion. Therefore, if your edit gets reverted, do not revert again. Instead, use the opportunity to begin a discussion with the interested parties to establish consensus.
More fully further down:
Discuss the edit, and the reasons for the edit, on the article's talk page. Do not continue to revert, which is the beginning of edit-warring. Leave the article in the condition it was in before the Bold edit was made (often called the status quo ante). When the discussion has improved understanding, attempt a new edit that may be acceptable to all participants in the discussion.
You've been edit warring to enforce your opinion about "Europe" and your misreading of WP:BRD. Please revert yourself, and don't reinsert your edit until you've gained consensus for it. Bishonen | talk 13:18, 20 June 2014 (UTC).