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:::{{tquote|The idea of Kosovo being the cradle of Serbia has been criticized in terms of historical validity, since the first Slav tribes settled outside the territory of Kosovo in the 7th century, and became central, at least economically and geographically, in the 13th century.}} - '''to be removed'''. It has nothing to do with the main topic. The myth of the cradle of Serbia is not the same as the Kosovo Myth (martyrdom, Lazars' sacrifice for the Kingdom of heaven, etc.). Every scholar claims that. Neither the author himself connects these two myths, nor does he call “the cradle myth” the Kosovo Myth or Kosovo Cult.--[[User:WEBDuB|WEBDuB]] ([[User talk:WEBDuB|talk]]) 11:25, 26 July 2020 (UTC) |
:::{{tquote|The idea of Kosovo being the cradle of Serbia has been criticized in terms of historical validity, since the first Slav tribes settled outside the territory of Kosovo in the 7th century, and became central, at least economically and geographically, in the 13th century.}} - '''to be removed'''. It has nothing to do with the main topic. The myth of the cradle of Serbia is not the same as the Kosovo Myth (martyrdom, Lazars' sacrifice for the Kingdom of heaven, etc.). Every scholar claims that. Neither the author himself connects these two myths, nor does he call “the cradle myth” the Kosovo Myth or Kosovo Cult.--[[User:WEBDuB|WEBDuB]] ([[User talk:WEBDuB|talk]]) 11:25, 26 July 2020 (UTC) |
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::::{{tquote|The 1392 poem "Narration about Prince Lazar" formulated the theme of choosing the heavenly kingdom.}} is not supported by Dujzings (2000), p.207. Dujzings also explains that {{tquote|However, these songs focus on the principle characters of the Kosovo legend...and the downfall of the Serbian kingdom and feudal society rather than the destiny of the Serbs as a nation. This shift in meaning occurred only in the nineteenth century, when the Kosovo theme evolved into a national myth.}} so a lead that would say {{tquote|The Kosovo myth describes Kosovo as the metaphorical cradle of the Serb nation}} is not accurate without a context.--[[User:Maleschreiber|Maleschreiber]] ([[User talk:Maleschreiber|talk]]) 12:23, 26 July 2020 (UTC) |
::::{{tquote|The 1392 poem "Narration about Prince Lazar" formulated the theme of choosing the heavenly kingdom.}} is not supported by Dujzings (2000), p.207. Dujzings also explains that {{tquote|However, these songs focus on the principle characters of the Kosovo legend...and the downfall of the Serbian kingdom and feudal society rather than the destiny of the Serbs as a nation. This shift in meaning occurred only in the nineteenth century, when the Kosovo theme evolved into a national myth.}} so a lead that would say {{tquote|The Kosovo myth describes Kosovo as the metaphorical cradle of the Serb nation}} is not accurate without a context.--[[User:Maleschreiber|Maleschreiber]] ([[User talk:Maleschreiber|talk]]) 12:23, 26 July 2020 (UTC) |
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* @WD and Sadko, everything is written in sources discussing the Kosovo Myth. Do not make dumb claims about OR or things like that. [[User:Ktrimi991|Ktrimi991]] ([[User talk:Ktrimi991|talk]]) 22:00, 31 July 2020 (UTC) |
Revision as of 22:00, 31 July 2020
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Kosovo Covenant
I find that the term "Kosovo Covenant" after "Kosovo Myth" gets the most hits on google search and on Google Books. "Kosovo Covenant" directly translates into the serbian "Kosovski Zavet", which is the most frequently used term, receiving 33,100 google search results versus "Kosovski Mit" (Kosovo myth) receiving only 17,200 search results. I suggest that besides "Myth", only "Covenant" should be included in the article, one ("Myth") reflecting the critical perspective of the tradition, while "Covenant" expressing it's religious dimension. Cult & Testament are not used nearly as much, neither in english nor serbian. Critikal1 (talk) 22:45, 29 June 2017 (UTC)
Recent edits ---> tags
Recent edits followed with clear WP:NOTTHERE lack basic WP:NPOV and are going all over the place; most of these recent additions use second-class sources and are engaging in WP:CHERRYPICKING sources and make pamphlet-like additions which are afterwards "guarded" and points raised by other editors are ignored. This is not a way to build an Enclyclopedia. The article is tagged until this situation resolves, with, hopefully, cooperation of other editors. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 14:42, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
- Calling sources "second-class" is not the same as actually disputing them with bibliography. If you can dispute any of them, add any tag you feel to be relevant.--Maleschreiber (talk) 14:53, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
- No, that's not how this project functions. Undo yourself as a sign of good faith. This move is really not looking good on several levels. There were several points raised, and yet you decided to focus on just one. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 15:05, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
- Saying that sources are "second-class" is WP:JDL. A content dispute means that you highlight a particular sentence or section that you consider POV, explain why it is so based on bibliography and then a discussion begins.--Maleschreiber (talk) 15:08, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
- That's just one way to do it and it's very arrogant to consider it to be the only one and regardless it does NOT give you carte blanche for removing the tags. I have already raised several points in my diffs. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 15:12, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
- That is the only way to do it because it is the only way that allows a discussion to happen within the context of policy.--Maleschreiber (talk) 15:15, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
- You and Ktrimi have added material that is contested. Instead of edit-warring you should try to reach a consensus. In Albanian nationalism (Albania), you and Ktrimi edit-warred quite intensely to suppress material you didn't like [1]. You yourself also habitually tag any article you don't like, often without any talkpage discussion [2]. Do not think this behavior goes by unnoticed. Khirurg (talk) 15:24, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
- That is the only way to do it because it is the only way that allows a discussion to happen within the context of policy.--Maleschreiber (talk) 15:15, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
- That's just one way to do it and it's very arrogant to consider it to be the only one and regardless it does NOT give you carte blanche for removing the tags. I have already raised several points in my diffs. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 15:12, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
- Saying that sources are "second-class" is WP:JDL. A content dispute means that you highlight a particular sentence or section that you consider POV, explain why it is so based on bibliography and then a discussion begins.--Maleschreiber (talk) 15:08, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
- No, that's not how this project functions. Undo yourself as a sign of good faith. This move is really not looking good on several levels. There were several points raised, and yet you decided to focus on just one. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 15:05, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
- @Sadko:, if you think there are other views supported by reliable sources, feel free to add them. Nobody has prevented you from doing so. If everyone started to follow your rationale, any article that can cause disputes between Balkan editors would be tagged forever. Such as that one for example, since you frequently have disputes with other editors there. Do not misuse tags, it could backfire. Ktrimi991 (talk) 16:57, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
- The Kosovo Myth is specific narrative (Lazars' sacrifice to gain the Kingdom of Heaven. during the Battle of Kosovo, etc.) and it is important that we stick to it. (WP:COATRACK) This article is not called Serbian myths about Kosovo. Verifiability does not guarantee inclusion. We need to include sources and parts that speak strictly about the Kosovo Myth, the Battle of Kosovo martyrdom, etc. Also, the article focus exclusively on wars (especially in the lead), instead of epic poems, art and other things is WP:UNDUE.--WEBDuB (talk) 21:26, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
- What the Kosovo Myth is about is decided by reliable sources, not you. Unless you provide arguments based on reliable sources, the tag will be removed. All the material recently added to the article refers to the Kosovo Myth. If you know of another point of view on the matter, always supported by reliable sources, feel free to make use of them. Ktrimi991 (talk) 22:44, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
- It does so because the Kosovo Myth is treated in bibliography largely as a 19th century creation within a given geopolitical context. I expect you to prepare specific tquotes which you think that should be changed + bibliography that supports those changes. Otherwise, there is no content for any tag placement and they'll be removed per WP:JDL. --Maleschreiber (talk) 22:49, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
- What the Kosovo Myth is about is decided by reliable sources, not you. Unless you provide arguments based on reliable sources, the tag will be removed. All the material recently added to the article refers to the Kosovo Myth. If you know of another point of view on the matter, always supported by reliable sources, feel free to make use of them. Ktrimi991 (talk) 22:44, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
- The Kosovo Myth is specific narrative (Lazars' sacrifice to gain the Kingdom of Heaven. during the Battle of Kosovo, etc.) and it is important that we stick to it. (WP:COATRACK) This article is not called Serbian myths about Kosovo. Verifiability does not guarantee inclusion. We need to include sources and parts that speak strictly about the Kosovo Myth, the Battle of Kosovo martyrdom, etc. Also, the article focus exclusively on wars (especially in the lead), instead of epic poems, art and other things is WP:UNDUE.--WEBDuB (talk) 21:26, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
- In my last edit I've outlined several problems, that is only a basis and we can take it from here. I will not delete the content yet, as I am willing to show good faith, even though there is clearly no consensus and 3 editors have claimed that the latest edits are introducing serious bias. Fellow editor @Maleschreiber, please do not write messages like "I'm giving you 1 day to present sources", this is not Taken and it's a breach of several policies. ty, Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 06:20, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
- Your mention of Taken, a movie that has been criticized for depicting Albanians as criminals, here can be very well seen as a personal attack. So do not do that again. You again did not bring amy reliable source, only your personal opinions. Ktrimi991 (talk) 12:16, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
- Really? I forgot about that as I've seen it 12 years ago. Some line in the movie have led to creation of numerous jokes, which was my point.
- Absolutely not true, I'm pretty much always attacking the content or sort of behaviour and not going full Ad hominem. cheers, Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 15:54, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
- Your mention of Taken, a movie that has been criticized for depicting Albanians as criminals, here can be very well seen as a personal attack. So do not do that again. You again did not bring amy reliable source, only your personal opinions. Ktrimi991 (talk) 12:16, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
- @WEBDuB: Do not remove content sourced to RS. Any new content addition is welcome. If you think that somewhere sources disagree, point that out here, and a way to solve that can be figured out. Ktrimi991 (talk) 23:12, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
- Many claims are not supported by sources, and many sources do not discuss the Kosovo Myth at all. I will explain in more detail. Furthermore, the lead doesn't adequately summarize key points from the body. (WP:MOSLEAD) Also, the same sentences are mentioned several times in the lead.--WEBDuB (talk) 05:06, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- Back to the stable version. Also, now that we have localized, sentence-specific tags we shouldn't add whole page tags. The reason why I asked from Sadko to provide specific tags in specific sections was so we could then remove the full page tags. As for the parts which he has tagged I think that some of those sections could even be removed entirely from the article like the one about the "elements which constitute the myth".--Maleschreiber (talk) 11:19, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- A side comment: The part which Sadko has disputed - and I'm 100% in favor of removing it - is the version of the article which other Serbian editors had written when it was created [3].--Maleschreiber (talk) 16:33, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- Back to the stable version. Also, now that we have localized, sentence-specific tags we shouldn't add whole page tags. The reason why I asked from Sadko to provide specific tags in specific sections was so we could then remove the full page tags. As for the parts which he has tagged I think that some of those sections could even be removed entirely from the article like the one about the "elements which constitute the myth".--Maleschreiber (talk) 11:19, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- Many claims are not supported by sources, and many sources do not discuss the Kosovo Myth at all. I will explain in more detail. Furthermore, the lead doesn't adequately summarize key points from the body. (WP:MOSLEAD) Also, the same sentences are mentioned several times in the lead.--WEBDuB (talk) 05:06, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
Dispute
The lead
There are many issues with the lead section. It is too long for this article size and it doesn't adequately summarize key points from the body. (MOS:LEAD) Many similar claims are repеated in the section. A lot of sentences can be transferred to the body of the article, which I have already tried. Furthermore, why is this opening paragraph problematic? I really think that it is in line with the MOS:BEGIN and that it is completely NPOV.
The Kosovo myth describes Kosovo as the metaphorical cradle of the Serb nation, and the Serbs as a chosen people.
In the context of the Kosovo myth, Greater Serbian propagandists have produced various slogans regarding Kosovo and the myth was used during the Yugoslavia period to argue for Serbian leadership and a Greater Serbia.
Used during the Yugoslavia period to argue for Serb leadership and a Greater Serbia, it was one of the factors that led to the Kosovo War.
These claims are not supported by sources. (WP:NOR) It is not recommended to combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources (WP:SYNTHESIS). In accordance with the sources, I have divided them impartially into several sentences. I can't find a quote where Elsie discusses the Kosovo Myth strictly. Malcolm doesn't mention “the Kosovo Myth”, “Greater Serbia” or “propagandists” anywhere. I have also added the only sentence that Sullivan connects with the Myth, besides Vuk Karadžić and Čedomilj Mijatović: The Kosovo Myth was reinforced after the great losses during World War I, which led to confusion among Serbian nationalists between the Serbian and Yugoslav states.
Ramet didn't connect Kosovo Myth with Great Serbia on page 181, not even in the entire book.
Knudsen & Laustsen noted: However, the causes of the Kosovo war are complex and cannot be reduced solely to political entrepreneurs' usage of nationalist myth.
Also, Radovic didn't state anything similar to: “the myth led to the Kosovo War”, but that it was used to form Milošević's ideology. Consequently, we need to write a more NPOV sentence like: The myth was instrumentalized during the Kosovo War.
The essence and basic elements of the myth
I think this is fine, but we should expand with Djokic's article and Ramet's book.
In Serbia
the Kosovo myth describes Kosovo as the metaphorical cradle of the Serb nation, and the Serbs as a chosen people.
I have already explained above for similar sentences in the lead.
The idea of Kosovo being the cradle of Serbia has been criticized in terms of historical validity, since the first Slav tribes settled outside the territory of Kosovo in the 7th century, and became central, at least economically and geographically, in the 13th century.
This sentence is sourced, but has nothing to do with the main topic.
Since the 19th century
This way, the myth became one of the factors that led to the Kosovo War.[25] In the context of the Kosovo myth, Greater Serbian propagandists have produced various slogans regarding Kosovo,[10] and the myth was used during the Yugoslavia period to argue for Serbian leadership and a Greater Serbia.
I have already explained above for similar sentences in the lead. --WEBDuB (talk) 13:47, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
- I'm a bit confused about what you proposed to change. Could you highlight the changes with tquotes and the current version as italics? --Maleschreiber (talk) 10:26, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
- Ok. Please be sure to check the cited sources. Everything I suggest is according to the sources, and the current claims so far are SYNTHESIS and OR. Furthermore, I suggest that we fix the body of the article first, and then we should focus on the lead.
The Kosovo myth describes Kosovo as the metaphorical cradle of the Serb nation, and the Serbs as a chosen people.
- The myth established the “heavenly Serbia” narrative.
- Ok. Please be sure to check the cited sources. Everything I suggest is according to the sources, and the current claims so far are SYNTHESIS and OR. Furthermore, I suggest that we fix the body of the article first, and then we should focus on the lead.
- (This claim has already been properly separated and a more precise quote has been added: Since the battle on Kosovo Polje, this hill came to be seen as the “cradle of Serbia” and one of the most Serb nation’s most holy places.)
This way, the myth became one of the factors that led to the Kosovo War. In the context of the Kosovo myth, Greater Serbian propagandists have produced various slogans regarding Kosovo and the myth was used during the Yugoslavia period to argue for Serbian leadership and a Greater Serbia.
- The Kosovo Myth was reinforced after the great losses during World War I, which led to confusion among Serbian nationalists between the Serbian and Yugoslav states. And then: The myth was instrumentalized (or used) during the Kosovo War.
The idea of Kosovo being the cradle of Serbia has been criticized in terms of historical validity, since the first Slav tribes settled outside the territory of Kosovo in the 7th century, and became central, at least economically and geographically, in the 13th century.
- to be removed. It has nothing to do with the main topic. The myth of the cradle of Serbia is not the same as the Kosovo Myth (martyrdom, Lazars' sacrifice for the Kingdom of heaven, etc.). Every scholar claims that. Neither the author himself connects these two myths, nor does he call “the cradle myth” the Kosovo Myth or Kosovo Cult.--WEBDuB (talk) 11:25, 26 July 2020 (UTC)The 1392 poem "Narration about Prince Lazar" formulated the theme of choosing the heavenly kingdom.
is not supported by Dujzings (2000), p.207. Dujzings also explains thatHowever, these songs focus on the principle characters of the Kosovo legend...and the downfall of the Serbian kingdom and feudal society rather than the destiny of the Serbs as a nation. This shift in meaning occurred only in the nineteenth century, when the Kosovo theme evolved into a national myth.
so a lead that would sayThe Kosovo myth describes Kosovo as the metaphorical cradle of the Serb nation
is not accurate without a context.--Maleschreiber (talk) 12:23, 26 July 2020 (UTC)