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::All this prodomo reply and complaining is no value in wp. TeKOS, Nucleus, and other flemish separatists publications are markedly ideological and when an author publishes there, it is for his account. This will be reintroduced also, with all other (communist) KE publications if you will. But they will be mentionned. And stop presuming my editorial motivations, this is personal attack. <span style="white-space:nowrap;"> - <font face="sans-serif">[[User:TwoHorned|TwoHorned]] <sub>[[User_talk:TwoHorned]]</sub></font></span> 17:46, 19 May 2014 (UTC) |
::All this prodomo reply and complaining is no value in wp. TeKOS, Nucleus, and other flemish separatists publications are markedly ideological and when an author publishes there, it is for his account. This will be reintroduced also, with all other (communist) KE publications if you will. But they will be mentionned. And stop presuming my editorial motivations, this is personal attack. <span style="white-space:nowrap;"> - <font face="sans-serif">[[User:TwoHorned|TwoHorned]] <sub>[[User_talk:TwoHorned]]</sub></font></span> 17:46, 19 May 2014 (UTC) |
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:::Once again, the source needs to be something other than Elst's own publication in those journals. If it just those publications, then they can go in the Bibliography, but that's it. If it ''is'' something else, then it is certainly worthy of mention. I have not yet read the Meera Nanda article, but it certainly meets RS criteria, if it ''does'' in fact contain the statement from the article. I will check up on that soon. [[User:Vanamonde93|Vanamonde93]] ([[User talk:Vanamonde93|talk]]) 22:20, 19 May 2014 (UTC) |
:::Once again, the source needs to be something other than Elst's own publication in those journals. If it just those publications, then they can go in the Bibliography, but that's it. If it ''is'' something else, then it is certainly worthy of mention. I have not yet read the Meera Nanda article, but it certainly meets RS criteria, if it ''does'' in fact contain the statement from the article. I will check up on that soon. [[User:Vanamonde93|Vanamonde93]] ([[User talk:Vanamonde93|talk]]) 22:20, 19 May 2014 (UTC) |
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TwoHorned: Please write the exact sentence that you propose to add to the article. And do this also for the other sections.--[[User:Calypsomusic|Calypsomusic]] ([[User talk:Calypsomusic|talk]]) 14:59, 20 May 2014 (UTC) |
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===Voice of India=== |
===Voice of India=== |
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criticism
mghori,
If you can add elst's responses to critics with reliable sources add them. Else stop removing the referenced portions from criticism section.--Sodabottle (talk) 04:48, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
- Sodabottle
- All are referenced are sources who are known for known leftist views. Please do not if you do not find response.
- Mghori (talk) 05:39, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
- so leftist sources cannot be used? it is criticism from reliable sources and can be included. if you can find elst's reponses add them. else stop removing these.--Sodabottle (talk) 06:50, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
Non-factual and Subjectivity of the article
1. Elst is one of the few western writers (along with François Gautier) to actively defend the Hindutva ideology.
Koenraad Elst is not a supporter of Hindutva ideology as claimed by the current version of this article. Also, comparing him to Francois Gautier is also fallacious. Elst is a researcher who has spent time researching Hindu renaissance in post-independent India and it's effects on Indian politics. His research includes very harsh criticism of "Hindutva" as well. In fact his book "BJP vis-a-vis Hindu Resurgence" gives a very detailed criticism of BJP and Hindutva ideology. I would be non-factual to label Elst as a supporter of Hindutva in this light. [1]
Hindutva ideology is the ideology put forward by RSS and BJP in India and Elst remains a critic of both these organizations and their ideology.
I suggest we replace the sentence with *Elst is one of the few researchers to have worked on ideological development of Hindu revivalism.* That was the title of his PHd thesis.
2. Many of these writings are featured in right-wing publications.
This might be factually correct but totally meaningless because Elst has also featured prominently in left-wing publications as well. He has also published in totally apolitical journals such as Inforiënt. The right-wing words seems selective and biased.
Elst started his public life in 1989 with an article about the Satanic Verses affair in the Communist weekly Toestanden. *I suggest we remove the right-wing word*.
3. that may focus on criticism of Islam,
If we are not sure that it focused on criticism of Islam we should remove this sentence or add relevant citations to prove that the paper clearly focused on criticism of Islam.
4. "At the end of March 2008, Koenraad Elst ridiculed Hugo Claus's decision to undergo euthanasia, claiming that it was influenced by the purple agnostic lobby to embarrass the Roman Catholic Church.[39]"
Totally incorrect. The article published by Elst was modified by the editor of that paper without his permission. Elst later not only clarified this but also stopped writing for the paper. Koenraad Elst is a vocal supporter to euthanasia. Elst has rebutted his Wikipedia claim here: [2]
5. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Akshar100 (talk • contribs) 23:37, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
Recent Reverts
@IP; I agree that any source should ideally have a page number. However, the lack of such is not sufficient to dismiss a source. Tag it, and if nobody responds for a while, remove the material. As it is currently presented, the material is definitely notable, so simply removing it is unacceptable. I have no objections to the stuff you added. I would also point out that many of the sources you added did not have page numbers. Cheers, Vanamonde93 (talk) 17:55, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- Elst never talked about nationalist claiming Taj to be theirs. Sarvepalli Gopal never mentioned Elst, you can paste that whole quote, you will find that wikipedia is only proof backing such quotation. Elst mentioned Gopal, but only as someone who had similar thoughts like himself. Which is not even criticism. Ayub Khan, Manini Chatterjee, are not notable, and they are not known for any other thing. "tactic against the freedom movement" is the actual, and sensible quote, I completed that. "been "proven" by prevalent standards of proof; even though one of the" even if it is not grammatical, that is what Elst wrote, it should be similar. N.S. Rajaram never mentioned Elst either. And the listed source doesn't exist, you can paste that quote(Rajaram) anywhere, only this page will be the result. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.183.234.167 (talk) 18:05, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- Also read "The Indo-Aryan Controversy: Evidence and Inference in Indian History" yourself, page 8-9. Hans Henrich Hock haven't even talked about Elst Koenraad. If you think I am wrong and you have sources, you can add them, but this is biography of living person like it is written above, you will need to be strict about sources, misleading or contentious cannot be awaited for these pages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.183.234.167 (talk) 19:04, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- I really have no idea what you are trying to argue here. Yes, Elst does ridicule the fringe of Hindu nationalist ideas such as claiming the Taj to be Hindu. See his blog here. I have no idea why you think the passage from "The Indo-Aryan Controversy" is relevant. What are you trying to say? That's just a summary of Elst's criticisms of Indo-Europeanists' arguments for the extra-Indian origin of PIE. You say "Sarvepalli Gopal never mentioned Elst, you can paste that whole quote, you will find that wikipedia is only proof backing such quotation." This is palpably false. It comes from p.21 of his book Anatomy of a Confrontation. For some reason it's falsely cited here to Elst's own book, which is probably the result of some bad cutting and merging of text in the past. Paul B (talk) 19:20, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- I can agree about him dismissing the oak's theories. But everything else should be confirmed before adding. He dismiss taj mahal theory, but you should present the way he has wrote them. I have explained other points before.
- I've corrected the Gopal citation. You also say the Rajaram quotation doesn't exist because if you "paste" it you can't find a source. If you mean it doesn't come up in Google, so what? Not everything is online. You also say "the listed source doesn't exist". The source is The Pioneer. Of course it exists. It's the Daily Pioneer newspaper, for which Rajaram has written several articles. Here's its website. Paul B (talk) 19:33, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- @IP: you're kind of missing the point here. If the citations are incorrect, they should be changed; but the way to go about doing this is not to delete them wholesale. Tag them, watch for a while, attempt to find them yourself, then delete. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Vanamonde93 (talk) 19:40, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- Paul, Thanks for that. If it is unavailable, I wouldn't be interrupting. Now it is all about the criticism section, It should keep Ramesh Nagaraj Rao's comment, but not Ayub Khan or Manini Chatterjee, they aren't notable. And there is a non-working link in see also — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.183.234.167 (talk) 19:41, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- They don't have to be notable in their own right, just legitimate scholars/commentators on the relevant topic. Paul B (talk) 19:59, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- It sums up almost everything. So if I add some positive commentary about his work, what would be the title of section? "reactions"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.183.234.167 (talk) 20:05, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- I don't have a problem with the Rao quotation, but it does seem to me to be rather - meaningless. He's not actually saying anything of substance. Still, several of the critical quotes are pretty meaningless too. So, Chatterjee complains that a book says "maybe". Big deal. Paul B (talk) 20:13, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- It sums up almost everything. So if I add some positive commentary about his work, what would be the title of section? "reactions"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.183.234.167 (talk) 20:05, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- They don't have to be notable in their own right, just legitimate scholars/commentators on the relevant topic. Paul B (talk) 19:59, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- Paul, Thanks for that. If it is unavailable, I wouldn't be interrupting. Now it is all about the criticism section, It should keep Ramesh Nagaraj Rao's comment, but not Ayub Khan or Manini Chatterjee, they aren't notable. And there is a non-working link in see also — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.183.234.167 (talk) 19:41, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- @IP: you're kind of missing the point here. If the citations are incorrect, they should be changed; but the way to go about doing this is not to delete them wholesale. Tag them, watch for a while, attempt to find them yourself, then delete. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Vanamonde93 (talk) 19:40, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- I've corrected the Gopal citation. You also say the Rajaram quotation doesn't exist because if you "paste" it you can't find a source. If you mean it doesn't come up in Google, so what? Not everything is online. You also say "the listed source doesn't exist". The source is The Pioneer. Of course it exists. It's the Daily Pioneer newspaper, for which Rajaram has written several articles. Here's its website. Paul B (talk) 19:33, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- I can agree about him dismissing the oak's theories. But everything else should be confirmed before adding. He dismiss taj mahal theory, but you should present the way he has wrote them. I have explained other points before.
- TY for heads up. Same, I have found a number of them to be meaningless, but which ones are redundant, according to you? Let us know. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.183.234.167 (talk) 20:19, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- I made account today. Me and Paul have agreed that Manini's comments are not notable or meaningful. We've also agreed that Nagaraj's view can be added. So I am not sure why Vanamonde93 added it back, and removed Nagarao's commentary.
- The consensus here seems to be that Manini and Nagaraj have similar weight. See Paul's comment. So either add both, or neither. Vanamonde93 (talk) 15:08, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
- I made account today. Me and Paul have agreed that Manini's comments are not notable or meaningful. We've also agreed that Nagaraj's view can be added. So I am not sure why Vanamonde93 added it back, and removed Nagarao's commentary.
- Elst never talked about nationalist claiming Taj to be theirs. Sarvepalli Gopal never mentioned Elst, you can paste that whole quote, you will find that wikipedia is only proof backing such quotation. Elst mentioned Gopal, but only as someone who had similar thoughts like himself. Which is not even criticism. Ayub Khan, Manini Chatterjee, are not notable, and they are not known for any other thing. "tactic against the freedom movement" is the actual, and sensible quote, I completed that. "been "proven" by prevalent standards of proof; even though one of the" even if it is not grammatical, that is what Elst wrote, it should be similar. N.S. Rajaram never mentioned Elst either. And the listed source doesn't exist, you can paste that quote(Rajaram) anywhere, only this page will be the result. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.183.234.167 (talk) 18:05, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
Proposed merge with The Saffron Swastika
The book is not notable enough for it`s own article, a redirect is suitable given the AFD results. Darkness Shines (talk) 10:45, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Saffron Swastika conclusion was "the book is deemed reliable and important enough". There are Afds which are closed as Redirect explicitly. --Redtigerxyz Talk 15:27, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
- I know that, however I am of the opinion that the books are not notable, and the closing admin has said he has no issue with these being redirected, I figured rather than just redirect w merger discussion would be preferable. Darkness Shines (talk) 16:05, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
Oppose merger - keep as stand-alone article.(Refactored by self to: Support merger - see comment directly below)The book does seem notable. I corroborated some of the mentions or reviews ("heavily lined copy", Menon review mentioned in deletion discussion). DarknessShines' "reason" is therefore a non-reason. Perhaps there is some other motivation for the merger proposal that hasn't been disclosed. I find some of the book's ideas implausible but WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT is not a valid Wikipedia reason to eliminate a separate article about the book. The Menon review that has been discovered should be intergrated into the stand-alone article, since it can indeed help to fill out the article further. And the online "heavily marked" should also be linked into the article.--Presearch (talk)- I have changed my view to support merger, so I refactored my comment above. For explanation, see my discussion below with Mezzo, and my comment beginning "Yikes". In a nutshell, blog/web forum reviews fail to count for minimum 2 reviews needed for WP:NBOOK. --Presearch (talk) 05:50, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose merger per Redtiger and FreeKnowledgeCreator and Presearch. I agree with the first two that some users need to learn to accept the outcome of deletion discussions. Not all of his deletion nominations are accepted by wikipedia admins, his deletion nomination for Anti-Hinduism and Category:Anti-Hinduism and Ilsaghat massacre and Captivity of Nairs at Seringapatam and Captivity of Kodavas at Seringapatam and Sanaullah Haq and Decline of Hinduism in Pakistan and 1971 killing of Bengali intellectuals, 2013 Bangladesh riot and Sex Jihad were not. I agree with the other editors that he should accept these outcomes, and I also agree with some of other editors who said he has been renominating the article for deletion a second or even third time after the outcome was keep or has been asking for them to be merged after the outcome was keep. But instead DS has personally attacked the admin who closed the discussion with keep, calling him a tit and **** dense. --Calypsomusic (talk) 16:49, 14 April 2014 (UTC) Another link I found (not about this book though, [1]). --Calypsomusic (talk) 18:32, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
- Calypsomusic, fucking dense as I may be according to some, I still don't look kindly on what appears to be a promotional effort in the Elst department. I did say that these articles were very tenuous keeps: they may well be mentioned and thus become more or less notable, but if there isn't enough published on them to write an article, then a redirect may be the best choice. These are editorial decisions and should be taken collaboratively; you cannot say that policy mandates that there be an article that is little more than the title + plot. Drmies (talk) 00:17, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
- @Drmies: Forgot I had written that, was shitfaced at the time, so this is a belated apology. Darkness Shines (talk) 15:06, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
- Calypsomusic, fucking dense as I may be according to some, I still don't look kindly on what appears to be a promotional effort in the Elst department. I did say that these articles were very tenuous keeps: they may well be mentioned and thus become more or less notable, but if there isn't enough published on them to write an article, then a redirect may be the best choice. These are editorial decisions and should be taken collaboratively; you cannot say that policy mandates that there be an article that is little more than the title + plot. Drmies (talk) 00:17, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
- Support merger As stated, the keep was tenuous and less than ideal. Even with every source that has currently been found, the article cannot be expanded beyond what it currently is and it actually needs to be cut down, as the long block of quoted text from the author himself seems like a violation of WP:INDISCRIMINATE (though the entire article seems that way, but I digress). Once that is cut out, it will never be able to move beyond a stub; the given non-primary sources (there are only a few) would serve better here in this article in a section about reception of the author's work. MezzoMezzo (talk) 04:05, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
- Merely asserting "it can't be expanded further" does not make it true, and verges on WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. In my comment above I suggested that the article could be expanded by citing (and mentioning content from) the currently uncited Menon review. If you disagree that this is a resource for expansion, it's incumbent on you to explain why. --Presearch (talk) 21:23, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
- Honestly User:Presearch, what more text could be added with that? This isn't rhetorical, I really don't see what could be written beyond "TM Menon also gave the book a good review." Unless we throw in another block quote, but then we run into the quotefarm problem. MezzoMezzo (talk) 03:16, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
- The Menon review is lengthy and largely positive, but it is nontrivial, which is the key criterion for book notability. Book notability nowhere says that a book is only notable if reviewers disagree. A lot of the Menon review is simply summarizing the material in the book, but it does have various other types of commentary, and it can also be enlightening to show (within limits) what a reviewer saw fit to point out as contained in the book. For a nontrivial review such as Menon, some of the most representative, important, or thought-provoking commentary could be either quoted or paraphrased. For example, near the end Menon says "Not many would agree with the author; but then, books are as much to read as for disagreeing with their content, if one strongly feels about [it]." Finding ways to adequately bring in material from the Menon and other reviews poses essentially the same challenge as is posed in writing any book review article where most or all reviews are of approximately the same valence. It's not as easy as assembling two opposing phalanxes of oppositely-valenced quotes (or quote farms), but it's usually doable, and I've seen no reason to think it can't be done here. Plus, the primary prescribed remedy in WP:QUOTEFARM is reworking the article, not article deletion. Describing the reviews is clearly not risking being a "repository of loosely associated topics". --Presearch (talk) 04:52, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
- So this in-depth review could give us maybe two lines plus a paraphrase/quote. I don't mean to be terse because I can see that you did take the time to read through it and write a thoughtful answer. But if, theoretically, we keep this article then some of the current text needs to be cut for the reasons stated above; when adding material with the single source of the Menon review, we would still be looking at a stub whose citations and material would better serve as an enhanced section to this main article here. I can't rule out the possibility that I am wrong, though. Maybe more feedback from a larger net of users would help. I apologize in advance if my comment seems flippant, that isn't my intention. MezzoMezzo (talk) 06:59, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
- The Menon review is lengthy and largely positive, but it is nontrivial, which is the key criterion for book notability. Book notability nowhere says that a book is only notable if reviewers disagree. A lot of the Menon review is simply summarizing the material in the book, but it does have various other types of commentary, and it can also be enlightening to show (within limits) what a reviewer saw fit to point out as contained in the book. For a nontrivial review such as Menon, some of the most representative, important, or thought-provoking commentary could be either quoted or paraphrased. For example, near the end Menon says "Not many would agree with the author; but then, books are as much to read as for disagreeing with their content, if one strongly feels about [it]." Finding ways to adequately bring in material from the Menon and other reviews poses essentially the same challenge as is posed in writing any book review article where most or all reviews are of approximately the same valence. It's not as easy as assembling two opposing phalanxes of oppositely-valenced quotes (or quote farms), but it's usually doable, and I've seen no reason to think it can't be done here. Plus, the primary prescribed remedy in WP:QUOTEFARM is reworking the article, not article deletion. Describing the reviews is clearly not risking being a "repository of loosely associated topics". --Presearch (talk) 04:52, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
- Honestly User:Presearch, what more text could be added with that? This isn't rhetorical, I really don't see what could be written beyond "TM Menon also gave the book a good review." Unless we throw in another block quote, but then we run into the quotefarm problem. MezzoMezzo (talk) 03:16, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
- Merely asserting "it can't be expanded further" does not make it true, and verges on WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. In my comment above I suggested that the article could be expanded by citing (and mentioning content from) the currently uncited Menon review. If you disagree that this is a resource for expansion, it's incumbent on you to explain why. --Presearch (talk) 21:23, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
- I know that, however I am of the opinion that the books are not notable, and the closing admin has said he has no issue with these being redirected, I figured rather than just redirect w merger discussion would be preferable. Darkness Shines (talk) 16:05, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
- Have you ever written book articles? Or looked at the relevant BOOK ARTICLE STYLE GUIDE? The article can and indeed should (to the tune of about 400 to 700 words) be fleshed out with a synopsis of the book. You've cited nothing but generic arguments that could be applied to almost any book with relatively few reviews. If you disagree with the very long-standing notability threshhold of 2 nontrivial reviews, that's a different issue, but not one to be decided here. Frankly, I suspect that I'd find myself in great disagreement with many arguments and conclusions in the book (even if the facts are largely accurate, and I can't vouch one way or the other). But the presentation of generic arguments that could be used to oppose virtually any book article lacking a superabundance of reviews strikes me as
giving the appearance of WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEITperhaps an argument that would hold appeal at first glance, but one that is ultimately weak, and should be rejected, my friend. --Presearch (talk) 07:35, 16 April 2014 (UTC)- Yes, I've created book articles before. I have never heard of this threshhold of two nontrivial reviews, though. I would ask where this threshhold is, but I know that many of these community consensuses are not necessarily written explicitly but are known through a long set of common outcomes. Though if it is written somewhere then that would be great; I understand if it isn't. I have to be honest though, for modern works my impression of the threshhold is at the top of WP:NBOOK under the "in a nutshell" part. There are five criteria there, and this book doesn't meet a single one as far as I know. It has been reviewed, nontrivially, but it hasn't been the actual subject of other books which are independent of this book itself. Whenever books come up on proposals for merging or whatever, that is the principle on which I have always operated. If there is another policy which would modify this in someway then I'm not aware of it (which is theoretically possible). MezzoMezzo (talk) 03:34, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
- Yikes, this is embarrassing. I have egg on my face. I too was thinking of the WP:NBOOK criterion, which reads "The book has been the subject[1] of multiple, non-trivial[2] published works appearing in sources that are independent of the book itself.[3]" And footnote 2 states "'Non-trivial' excludes personal websites, blogs, bulletin boards, Usenet posts, wikis and other media that are not themselves reliable...." Thus, while the reviews need not be in "other books" (your phrasing) -- they can be in published journals and such things -- personal blogs as for Rao, and also for Menon are not adequate. And I think that nixes notability. Thus I stand corrected. You have won me over to your point of view. I will change my "vote" to merge. As a bit of apology/explanation, the approximately 25 book articles I've written were mostly more than a year ago, and all had multiple reviews actually published in real journals or similar sources (that's the type of book that interested me) -- but clearly my memory of the criterion, which I must have known, had faded. Apologies for taking your time, it would have been more efficient if I'd reread it. Best regards -- Presearch (talk) 05:43, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, I've created book articles before. I have never heard of this threshhold of two nontrivial reviews, though. I would ask where this threshhold is, but I know that many of these community consensuses are not necessarily written explicitly but are known through a long set of common outcomes. Though if it is written somewhere then that would be great; I understand if it isn't. I have to be honest though, for modern works my impression of the threshhold is at the top of WP:NBOOK under the "in a nutshell" part. There are five criteria there, and this book doesn't meet a single one as far as I know. It has been reviewed, nontrivially, but it hasn't been the actual subject of other books which are independent of this book itself. Whenever books come up on proposals for merging or whatever, that is the principle on which I have always operated. If there is another policy which would modify this in someway then I'm not aware of it (which is theoretically possible). MezzoMezzo (talk) 03:34, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
- Have you ever written book articles? Or looked at the relevant BOOK ARTICLE STYLE GUIDE? The article can and indeed should (to the tune of about 400 to 700 words) be fleshed out with a synopsis of the book. You've cited nothing but generic arguments that could be applied to almost any book with relatively few reviews. If you disagree with the very long-standing notability threshhold of 2 nontrivial reviews, that's a different issue, but not one to be decided here. Frankly, I suspect that I'd find myself in great disagreement with many arguments and conclusions in the book (even if the facts are largely accurate, and I can't vouch one way or the other). But the presentation of generic arguments that could be used to oppose virtually any book article lacking a superabundance of reviews strikes me as
- 'Support merger per nom. Cwobeel (talk) 18:41, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
- Comment : I cannot be bothered anymore to expand the article, when Darkness Shines is reverting all of my edits in these and other articles. But I believe that another editor can easily expand this article.
- For more sources, see the informative comments above by User:Presearch, and my summary from the AFD. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Saffron Swastika:
- So in summary this book has multiple reviews (R.N. Rao, Christian Bouchet, TM Menon, and maybe more) (note that Darkness Shines has removed references from the article, so they might not show up), it is quoted in several newspaper articles (Outlook India, Telegraph, Times of India), it contains parts of his Ph.D. thesis, the book is quoted by very prominent politicans like the home minister and deputy prime minister L.K. Advani, professor Edwin Bryant writes it is one of his notable works, it is a major source (in entries on India) in "World Fascism: A Historical Encyclopedia" by Cyprian Blamires and Paul Jackson and in "Racism: A Selected Bibliography" by Albert J. Wheeler, it is cited in history professor Arnold P. Kaminsky encyclopedia "India Today: An Encyclopedia of Life in the Republic", in Tom Brass book "Latin American Peasants" and many other books/papers, it is quoted in official political statements (in statements made after an appeal by the Dalai Lama, was used to prove the home minister L.K. Advani's innocence during a cross-examination at the commission,...) , etc. This book meets clearly notability criteria.--Calypsomusic (talk) 17:02, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
- Note: The Outlook India quotes Elst quite extensively. It can be found online in several places by googling "outlook india elst saffron swastika advani"
- Menon said in a book review on this book: "Not many would agree with the author; but then, books are as much to read as for disagreeing with their content, if one strongly feels about [it]." [3]
- And the review by Rao was orignally published (among other places?) at the India Star Book review journal (edited by C. Wallia of the University of Berkeley). http://web.archive.org/web/20060528235634/http://www.indiastar.com/rameshrao.html --Calypsomusic (talk) 17:08, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
- So in summary this book has multiple reviews (R.N. Rao, Christian Bouchet, TM Menon, and maybe more) (note that Darkness Shines has removed references from the article, so they might not show up), it is quoted in several newspaper articles (Outlook India, Telegraph, Times of India), it contains parts of his Ph.D. thesis, the book is quoted by very prominent politicans like the home minister and deputy prime minister L.K. Advani, professor Edwin Bryant writes it is one of his notable works, it is a major source (in entries on India) in "World Fascism: A Historical Encyclopedia" by Cyprian Blamires and Paul Jackson and in "Racism: A Selected Bibliography" by Albert J. Wheeler, it is cited in history professor Arnold P. Kaminsky encyclopedia "India Today: An Encyclopedia of Life in the Republic", in Tom Brass book "Latin American Peasants" and many other books/papers, it is quoted in official political statements (in statements made after an appeal by the Dalai Lama, was used to prove the home minister L.K. Advani's innocence during a cross-examination at the commission,...) , etc. This book meets clearly notability criteria.--Calypsomusic (talk) 17:02, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
Calypso, I just changed my "vote", as you can see above, so I think if the Saffron book is to survive as an independent article, you'll need to make a strong case for notability, and fast. If you think the article can be reworked to make it very clear that it passes WP:NBOOK, one place you might do that is in your own sandbox, where presumably no-one will revert your changes, but other people could see clearly what you've done, and they won't have to deal with walls of text (like this one!).
I would urge you to concentrate on demonstrating that some one sufficient criterion of WP:NBOOK is satisfied. Perhaps you think there are 2 nontrivial and substantive reviews? If so, please show us very clearly in your sandbox those 2 reviews. Since people are tired of your walls of text, perhaps you could create an individual page that contains ONLY those 2 real reviews, and very clearly quotes enough text that makes them substantive/nontrivial, and also very clearly establishes them as published in the right kind of publication (see my quote above -- Rao and Menon seem out because they are essentially in blogs). Now you say that Menon was originally published in an "India Star Book review journal". I strongly suspect that people here will want more info than just that link to show it is a real published journal. For example, when I go to Worldcat, I find no record of a journal called "India Star" that matches your website. Thus maybe it's never been carried by any libraries. This would, I think, tend to undermine it as a source that would count towards establishing notability. But if you could establish that 2 reviews appeared in sources catalogued in Worldcat, then you'd be a long way towards doing what you need to do. Other stuff about being mentioned briefly by politicians is irrelevant to the book review criterion. Choose one criterion, and show us, cleanly, without lots of distractions, exactly how it is satisfied. --Presearch (talk) 06:23, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
Darkness Shines, this merger proposal is not supposed to be a simple "cover" for a deletion. You have converted two book articles into redirects to the author's page, but not added any material to the author's page, and it's been a long period of time. This is poor practice and gives the impression that it's OK to do a deletion masquerading as a merger. I will restore the book articles per WP:BRD. Next time, if you want to implement the merger, then to be a "straight shooter", as well as compensate for this current move, I would urge you to add the merged material to the author page before turning the book page into a redirect. --Presearch (talk) 17:02, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
- Neither was this discussion finished yet, was it? So I agree with Presearch's restoration, untill this discussion is finished. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:58, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
Support merger: not notable enough, can only be related to the books he wrote, and inside their respective articles.. - TwoHorned User_talk:TwoHorned 07:28, 28 April 2014 (UTC).
Merge. Book doesn't meet notability criteria. Itsmejudith (talk) 07:38, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
- Comment: This is a merger discussion, not a second AFD discussion. Not one of the pro-merge voters have argued on the basis of WP:Merging. I argue against merging because The topics are discrete subjects warranting their own articles, even though they might be short.--Calypsomusic (talk) 10:09, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
- Comment: One of the book reviews was published at the India Star Book review online journal (edited by C. Wallia of the University of Berkeley). While it is not an academic journal, it is also not just a personal blog. The Menon review was published 10 years ago, as were other reviews, and after 10 years it is difficult to track down where they were published in India. But the lenghty size of the reviews indicates that they must have been published somewhere. --Calypsomusic (talk) 11:20, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
- Calypso, you say "While it is not an academic journal, it is also not just a personal blog". But as I noted in my earlier comment, I was unable to find any record of "India Star" in Worldcat. How is it possible to verify that "India Star" -- even if it isn't just a blog -- is a "nontrivial" web presence? Merely having sponsorship by a professor at a prominent university is not enough by itself to distinguish it from a blog. --Presearch (talk) 19:06, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
- Why do you think that Worldcat contains a complete list of all journals from all countries? The India Star Review of books is not the authors' personal website or blog. [2] It has a publisher and editor C.J.Singh,Ph.D., and CJS Wallia of the University of Berkeley. Book reviews that were published are reviews written by prominent authors like Prof. Meenakshi Mukherjee, , a renowned litterateur and Sahitya Akademi award winner, and "India's leading literary critic" and Prof Subhash Kak. In my opinion, this is a nontrivial web presence. (See also [3]) --Calypsomusic (talk) 10:19, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
- Presearch, I have made an article on Meenakshi Mukherjee (still very short), there were at least 3 reviews by her published in that journal. What do you say regarding the contribution the book made in politics, as shown in newspaper articles in Telegraph/Times of India/Outlook, as I gave some examples on this in this and in the AFD discussion (LK Advani/BJP/Dalai Lama/Ayodhya/Liberhans/etc.)? --Calypsomusic (talk) 15:16, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
- Calypso, you say "While it is not an academic journal, it is also not just a personal blog". But as I noted in my earlier comment, I was unable to find any record of "India Star" in Worldcat. How is it possible to verify that "India Star" -- even if it isn't just a blog -- is a "nontrivial" web presence? Merely having sponsorship by a professor at a prominent university is not enough by itself to distinguish it from a blog. --Presearch (talk) 19:06, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
- Comment: The book is also notable because of criterion 3: The book has been considered by reliable sources to have made a significant contribution to an event or political or religious movement. In addition to what was said in the AFD discussion and already demonstrates notability, I have found that L.K. Advani, former Home Minister and Deputy Prime Minister and leader of the opposition, wrote about the Saffron Swastika in his autobiography "My Country, My Life":
- "Dr. Koenrad Elst, in his two-volume book titled The Saffrron Swsatika, ... an incontrovertible array of facts to debunk slanderous attacks on the BJP by a section of the media. About the Yatra he writes: ...(*lenghty excerpts*). "
- "Towards this end, I took an important initiative at a function in New Delhi on 13 August, while releasing Koenraad Elst's book Ram Janmabhoomi vs Babri Masjid: A case study in Hindu Muslim conflict. I offered to the the Muslim leaders that I would personally request leaders of the VHP to relinquish their demand on the Hindu shrine in Mathura and Varanasi if the Muslim claim over Ramjanmabhoomi was voluntarily withdrawn, paving the way for the construction of the Ram Temple. I was deeply disappointed when Muslim leaders rejected this offer. I had proposed the compromise after much reflection. Therefore (... )was a major goodwill gesture towards Muslims. By refusing (...) the ABIMAC leaders once again showed their obstinacy, ... and fanaticism. " (pp. 371-379)
- If such statements were made by the corresponding political function in the US or the UK, it would also indicate notability of the book. --Calypsomusic (talk) 11:20, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose Merger this article has sufficient content to exist on its own. This author article should not be merged into one of its books. The proposer User:Darkness Shines has been blocked for two months. Jyoti (talk) 12:17, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
Proposed merge with Ayodhya and After: Issues Before Hindu Society
Non notable book, following the AFD discussion this really ought to be a redirect. Darkness Shines (talk) 11:43, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose merger per Redtiger and FreeKnowledgeCreator. You also forgot to add the merger tag to the article, so that others can see it. I will do it now.
- The outcome of the discussion was keep. The two articles should be kept separate, they are discrete subjects. --Calypsomusic (talk) 16:50, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
- Support merger As the closer of that AfD mentioned, it was only a weak keep that could have gone either way. The sources for that article are primary sources, with the exception of two passing mentions elsewhere. This happens a lot with authors; the man may be notable, but not every book he ever wrote. MezzoMezzo (talk) 03:57, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
- Lean toward merger. I'm not sure there is more than one nontrivial review, and if this is correct, the book may fall short of the "multiple nontrivial reviews" threshhold for notability. In particular, the review by Rao is nontrivial. But another linked review currently in the article is to a different book. And the mention by Larson (p340) is trivial. Calypsomusic has complained that some changes to add references have been reverted. Unless those changes included additional nontrivial reviews, I am in favor of merger. As far as I'm concerned, Calypso would be welcome to summarize any such additional reviews below this comment. If they are offline, perhaps Calypsomusic could supply an extensive quotation that would show how the review is nontrivial. --Presearch (talk) 22:05, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
- Support merger not notable enough to warrant their own articles. Cwobeel (talk) 18:37, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
- Comment: I have expanded the article. I'm sure that Darkness Shines will again think about reverting all of my edits. Can I ask him as a matter of courtesy not to make a blanket revert, but just remove the pieces he thinks should not be in the article?
- The fuller version of the article is at https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ayodhya_and_After:_Issues_Before_Hindu_Society&oldid=604631172
- Many additional sources are in the deletion discussion : Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ayodhya and After: Issues Before Hindu Society --Calypsomusic (talk) 19:08, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
- Comment: As predicted, a revert was made, but some changes were left. I don't understand the "edit commentary by Darkness Shines. What has it to do with BLP? --Calypsomusic (talk) 19:32, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
Darkness Shines, this merger proposal is not supposed to be a simple "cover" for a deletion. You have converted two book articles into redirects to the author's page, but not added any material to the author's page, and it's been a long period of time. This is poor practice and gives the impression that it's OK to do a deletion masquerading as a merger. I will restore the book articles per WP:BRD. Next time, if you want to implement the merger, then to be a "straight shooter", as well as compensate for this current move, I would urge you to add the merged material to the author page before turning the book page into a redirect. --Presearch (talk) 17:02, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
- Support merger: not notable enough, can only be related to the books he wrote, and inside their respective articles. - TwoHorned User_talk:TwoHorned 07:28, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose Merger this article has sufficient content to exist on its own. This author article should not be merged into one of its books. The proposer User:Darkness Shines has been blocked for two months. The suggestion of merging more content into lesser content article is so inconsistent to me! Jyoti (talk) 12:20, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
Lede
Hi, I strongly disagree with the removal of sourced information in the lede, for instance compared to this in this version of the lede. There is clearly deletion of sourced material, and the new lead does not give a proper description of Elst's standpoint. - TwoHorned User_talk:TwoHorned 07:24, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
- There is already a discussion in the NPOV section. Please discuss there. --Calypsomusic (talk) 08:11, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
Questionable editing on POV and merger discussions
Darkness Shines has removed the POV tag without discussion from the article.
He has also improperly handled the merge discussions. First they were used immediately after the AFD discussion closed as keep, to get the book deleted despite the AFD outcome.
The merger discussions should be allowed to be run for at least 30 days and they should not be closed by the same user who intitated the merger. But Darkness Shines has closed the Ayodhya merger discussion himself and after too short a period of time. He also didn't merge the contents after closing, only after another user requested him to. --Calypsomusic (talk) 10:15, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
NPOV violations in a BLP article
After Darkness Shines (talk · contribs) and Shrikanthv (talk · contribs) nominated the BLP article and all of the authors' book articles for deletion, one of the discussions centered on the serious NPOV violations in the article.
They were already brought up at this noticeboard at least once. Some improvements were then made by User:Collect, but they were reverted by another editor. The article may need to be protected.
The NPOV violations were explained in great detail by the subject of the lemma here:
- The wikipedia lemma on "Koenraad Elst": a textbook example of defamation
- Meera Nanda against Hinduism
These links say among other things:
- Well, there you have it. The lemma on me has ended up taking this form because some militant among your contributors purposely wanted to “warn readers” against me. Please cite me an instruction for encyclopedists that names “warning” among the legitimate goals of an encyclopedia.
- Either you remove the lemma altogether, or you straighten it out and apply the rules of encyclopedia-writing to it. At any rate, in a encyclopedia, I count on being judged for what I myself have said or done, and not for the gossip my declared enemies have come up with.
- If Wikipedia wants to live up to its promise of being a reliable encyclopedic source, it will strike this and all sentences resembling it from its article on me. At most, it can use me as an example of how it was fooled by some of its all-too-partisan collaborators. Speaking of whom: the history page accompanying my page proves forever that some Wikipedia collaborators wanted to inflict on me the maximum harm possible, an attitude incompatible with work for an encyclopedia.
The old discussion was here:
- Someone claiming to be the subject of the article Koenraad Elst has written a long blog post with a set of criticisms of the article. Some of the criticisms seem slightly overwrought but there's probably quite a few which are valid. Anyone want to sort this out? —Tom Morris (talk) 05:59, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
- Well -- the BLP was replete with "claims" and polemical wording which I did a little clean-up on. Not a shining example of Wikipedia biographies in any case. More for others to work on. I specifically did not seek out the blog, bit worked from Wikipedia normal best practice on it. Collect (talk) 07:38, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
I will start by rewriting the lead. The lead is not the place mention his writings in small papers that he did 40 years ago - that stuff should be in the biography part. Because of the serious NPOV violations in this article, all changes to the lead should be first discussed on the talk page. --Calypsomusic (talk) 09:03, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
- On the suggestion of other editors like DS, who said in the deletion discussion the article could be stubbed/made NPOV, I will further trim material.
- Before putting any of the contentious material back, please discuss first on the talkpage and check first WP:BLP policy and if the allegations were already appropriately answered in these two links:
- The wikipedia lemma on "Koenraad Elst": a textbook example of defamation
- Meera Nanda against Hinduism
--Calypsomusic (talk) 09:41, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
- Elst raises important points about the structure of this article (it is appalling), but apart from that, this is a prime example of an self-published source, and so it cannot be used here. Vanamonde93 (talk) 21:22, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks for your input. That particular article is only being used in the talkpage discussion, for which it can be used perfectly fine. Elst's own writings can also be used to some degree in the article according to WP:BLPSELFPUB. --Calypsomusic (talk) 09:03, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
TwoHorned has removed the NPOV tags and warnings after restoring all the BLP violations in the article. TwoHorned: this is a BLP article, and must strictly adhere to the BLP and OR policy - which you have to read now. It says that the burden of evidence for any edit rests with the person who adds or restores material.
Please make a subsection below for each contentious material that you want to add to the article, so that it can be discussed if it complies with BLP, NPOV, V, and OR policies. Please discuss all additions of contentious material on the talkpage before adding it to the article.--Calypsomusic (talk) 08:15, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
- Elst's article complaining about this article cannot be considered as a sufficient proof about BLP violation: in fact, some info in the lede you have discarded were put according to his answer. The issue here is a simple disagreement about the content of the article, nothing else. I strongly disagree with the deletions of Calypsomusic, a user that "appeared" in March 2014… All the links you provide here are from Elst's blog. This cannot be considered as serious according to WP sourcing. And you deleted valid references, such as the one about Middle East Forum in which Elst has published. This is valid source deletion. Without any justifications on your side soon, I will restore what you have deleted. Also I notice that all the votes in the previous sections acknowledge for a fusion of this article with the aforementioned links. So, User:Calypsomusic, I am asking you to answer the following questions:
- Is true, or not, that KE has written articles in publications like Nucleus, Teksten ?
- Is it true, or not, that most of KE books are published by the Voice of India publishing house ?
- Is he a contributor of the neoconservative Brussels Journal ?
- If the previous is true, where is the BLP violation ?
- It's better for you to answer these questions soon, and not vandalize other pages I've been working on. - TwoHorned User_talk:TwoHorned 10:46, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
I told you you should add a subsection for each contentious claim, so that it can be discussed and evaluated if it violates BLP. The burden of evidence for any edit rests with the person who adds or restores material.
Since you mention the Middle East Quarterly, I will start below. Please add a subsection for each of your other contentious claims.
Middle East Quarterly
Addition of these two sentences on the MEF:
- His views on Islam are in line with the neoconservative think-tank "Middle East Forum", to which he has contributed.
- He was ...... Middle East Forum. (in the LEAD)
The first sentence about MEF is violating OR, you cannot say his views are in line with the MEF, only because one or more of his articles appeared there. That is OR. You can mention that he published there. But not in the lead, for gods sake. The second sentence does not belong in the lead (and please make a separate subsection for each of the other allegations in the sentence that are not about MEF). --Calypsomusic (talk) 11:46, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
- Actually, this is also UNDUE. You can add the MEF publications in his bibliography, you can add something about his opinion on Islam, but to add a sentence that he published in some minor journals is very much UNDUE. --Calypsomusic (talk) 12:37, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
No, this is not UNDUE: KE has written a postscript to MEF's Daniel Pipes book "The Rushdie Affair" + an article in MEF. Moreover, The Brussels Journal, having KE as a regular contributor, is supported by MEF's Daniel Pipes see here. So there is sufficient sourcing for linking KE with these milieux. Moreover, you deleted the MEF link. So your answers, for the moment, are null. I am waiting the answers to other points. But I will not wait too long, believe me. - TwoHorned User_talk:TwoHorned 13:02, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
It is still OR, even if it were true that Elsts writings are in line with the MEF, because the statement is not supported by a secondary source. To add sentences mentioning he published in the MEF and other even lesser known outlets is UNDUE. I cleaned up the ext links section, but it wasn't me who cleaned up the bibliography. you can add the MEF source to the bibliography. You have to wait at least 3-4 days for a talkpage discussion to get consensus, and on a BLP page it should rather be a week at least. Please add a subsection for all your other proposed contentious additions. It is your responsiblity to do that . The burden of evidence for any edit rests with the person who adds or restores material. --Calypsomusic (talk) 13:41, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
- Wrong, it is not OR, because two refs, the article of KE in MEF plus the postscript to a book source it. - TwoHorned User_talk:TwoHorned 14:04, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
It is OR. The references are all primary sources. You need a reliable secondary source. It is your interpretation that Elsts views are in line with the journal where he published less than a handful of articles. And the Brussels Journal link you gave is not an article by Pipes, but about Pipes. It does not prove anything, least of all about Elst. --Calypsomusic (talk) 17:22, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
- A book is not a primary source. The Rushdie affair is a book. The links between the Brussels Journal and MEF are evident. Just an example here. Consequently there is no BLP violation (you admit it) nor OR. I am adding the deleted parts now, with deletion of prodomo material and corrected sentence. - TwoHorned User_talk:TwoHorned 17:30, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
- I broadly agree with Two Horned here; nonetheless, the that Elst has published in a certain book/journal requires sources besides that book or journal, because in this case those would, indeed, be primary sources. That said, it should not be difficult to find such a source; I am sure there are academic reviews of his books somewhere, I will get around to finding such eventually if nobody else does. Vanamonde93 (talk) 22:03, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
- You cannot say that Elsts views are in line with or are expressed in the MEF. As a compromise, you may propose: Elst has also written a postscript to a book by neoconservative and Islam-critical scholar Daniel Pipes, and has published articles critical of Islam in the Middle East Forum and other publications. I think it is UNDUE, but as a compromise it is ok. You can also add those to the bibliography. --Calypsomusic (talk) 14:56, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
Teksten, Kommentaren en Studies
On KE contributions to TeKOS and TEKOS colloqium. See for instance "Het zesde colloquium van TeKoS, “Rechts op antwoord! Tegen de dictatuur van het ‘politiek correcte’ denken” vond plaats op 11 november 2000. Voordrachten waren er van Jacques Claes, Koenraad Elst, Rolf Falter en Grégory Pons"; ‘De TeKoS-reeks’, Tekos, XXII, 2001, 102, p.58. If you want, we can add his articles in Trends in the lede also. - TwoHorned User_talk:TwoHorned 14:21, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
- This is definitely not lead material. It is also UNDUE, because these are minor journals he published maybe 40 years ago. You only want to add it for a guilt for association exercise, which is unfounded (compare with Elsts comments in the linked article and below). Add it to the bibliography if you must. He also published in Communist journals, apart from of course scholarly journals. These are also UNDUE.
Elsts reply:
- This is only partly untrue, but even where true, it clearly biased by being very partial. For instance, in exactly the same years when I was on the editorial board of TeKoS, meeting 6 or 7 times in the said period, I also wrote for the business weekly Trends. Though one article in Trends had far more readers than all my TeKoS articles combined, you fail to mention this. Given your eye for selective detail, it is also remarkable that you omit my leftist period, from far-leftist camp follower at 15 to occasional anti-NATO demonstrator at 24. Not that it is that important, but then neither is my having written for this paper or that. In an article that pays far more attention to my alleged opinions than to what I have actually done, it remains at any rate remarkable that you omit a turn of opinion that would add some perspective to my ideological development.
- Around 1990, well before joining TeKoS, I also wrote regularly for Inforiënt, a monthly issued by the Asian Studies Department of my home university. This was a non-political scholarly paper, and clearly some pseudonymous contributor decided that this was not the association he wanted for me.
- Anyway, name me a single lemma that starts out with a living author’s membership of the editorial board of a trimonthly paper 18 years ago, which met 6 or 7 times in this period, and where no decisions whatsoever were taken; when the same author has written more than 20 books, some of them best-sellers or otherwise remarkable..
- Actually, even when I occasionally published in a Nouvelle Droite paper (TeKoS), I never endorsed Nouvelle Droite viewpoints, such as their anti-Liberalism, their anti-Americanism, or their championing “identity”, or the “Traditionalism” which some of its leading lights espouse. The only time I wrote in a real Nouvelle Droite publication (Nouvelle Ecole 2000), it was to defend the Out-of-India Theory against the Aryan Invasion Theory, central to the Nouvelle Droite worldview and defended in that same issue by both Prof. Jean Haudry and Alain de Benoist. Recently I have written some skeptical comments on the Nouvelle Droite, but throughout, I have absolutely never expressed any kind of agreement with it or, when it still mattered, even just an opinion on it. You or your sources are simply inventing this. If not, show me. And I don’t mean the gossip by my enemies, quoted on your talk page as authoritative, but an actual text by me. As the writer of thousands of pages of well-considered findings, I have a right to be evaluated on what I have actually written rather than on some vague rumours propagated by my self-declared enemies.
- After I had become somewhat well-known as an Islam critic, I accepted a fully non-committal post on the editorial board of TeKoS at the request of the general editor Luc Pauwels, who wanted a counterweight to the heavy pro-Muslim presence with their fantasies of a “Euro-Arab alliance against the US” on his editorial board. It took some time before I knew what it was all about, and by the time I did, I left.
- Apart from TeKoS, I only contributed a single article to any Nouvelle Droite publication, viz. to their flagship publication Nouvelle Ecole, where in 2001 I contributed a defence of the Out-of-IndiaTheory, directly flying in the face of the Nouvelle Droite position (which is very pro-AIT) and answered on the spot by both Alain de Benoist, their mastermind, and Jean Haudry, their specialist on Indo-European matters. It is a good thing that they are more open-minded than the Indian secularists, but that shouldn’t obscure our differences.
- That can be generalized: though I published in the Nouvelle Droite publication TeKoS, Meera Nanda and her friends will have a hard time finding articles of mine where I develop the typical Nouvelle Droite themes, such as identity. There are even articles where I lambast the Nouvelle Droite (or the Vlaams Belang, for that matter), but they are in Dutch, which I surmise Meera Nanda does not read. Note however that it is her own unsolicited conceit that she is a specialist on the thoughts of Koenraad Elst. --Calypsomusic (talk) 17:32, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
- All this prodomo reply and complaining is no value in wp. TeKOS, Nucleus, and other flemish separatists publications are markedly ideological and when an author publishes there, it is for his account. This will be reintroduced also, with all other (communist) KE publications if you will. But they will be mentionned. And stop presuming my editorial motivations, this is personal attack. - TwoHorned User_talk:TwoHorned 17:46, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
- Once again, the source needs to be something other than Elst's own publication in those journals. If it just those publications, then they can go in the Bibliography, but that's it. If it is something else, then it is certainly worthy of mention. I have not yet read the Meera Nanda article, but it certainly meets RS criteria, if it does in fact contain the statement from the article. I will check up on that soon. Vanamonde93 (talk) 22:20, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
- All this prodomo reply and complaining is no value in wp. TeKOS, Nucleus, and other flemish separatists publications are markedly ideological and when an author publishes there, it is for his account. This will be reintroduced also, with all other (communist) KE publications if you will. But they will be mentionned. And stop presuming my editorial motivations, this is personal attack. - TwoHorned User_talk:TwoHorned 17:46, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
TwoHorned: Please write the exact sentence that you propose to add to the article. And do this also for the other sections.--Calypsomusic (talk) 14:59, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
Voice of India
His main publishing house. Not even mentioned in User:Calypsomusic new version. - TwoHorned User_talk:TwoHorned
- Because it is not encyclopedic and UNDUE. Can you show me any other article which discusses where an author has published? --Calypsomusic (talk) 17:32, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
- Are you kidding ? VOI is a controversed publishing house, and all KE books are published there. The controversy is sourced; Consequently, this will be re-introduced in the article. - TwoHorned User_talk:TwoHorned 17:42, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
Why are you not able or willing to show me another encyclopedic article that discusses the author's publishing house. Please write the exact sentence that you propose to add to the article. And do this also for the other sections.--Calypsomusic (talk) 10:15, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
Astrology
This link seems to provide information about KE's involvment in astrological milieux and "workgroups". I'm not sure the link can be used in wp however. But KE's name appears at many places there. - TwoHorned User_talk:TwoHorned 09:02, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
- Please write the exact sentence that you propose to add to the article. And do this also for the other sections. --Calypsomusic (talk) 10:08, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
Results of merge proposal
According to the discussions on the two merge proposed, the results are:
- merge with The Saffron Swastika. Results: 2 oppositions, 4 supports for the merge;
- merge with Ayodhya and After: Issues Before Hindu Society. Results: 2 oppose, 4 supports.
Conclusion: the consensus is for merging. Consequently, the Elst article will be merged this week to either book article; - TwoHorned User_talk:TwoHorned 17:24, 19 May 2014 (UTC)