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I can't find late 17th century primary sources showing land forces. English Civil War sources are useless because the symbols were used to show allegiance, with Royalists using the Royal Banner, and Cromwell's forces using the St George cross. It's quite possible the St George cross was used more often after the English Civil War because of the conflict. <b>[[User:Rob984|Rob]]</b> ([[User talk:Rob984|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Rob984#top|contribs]]) 11:41, 30 June 2014 (UTC) |
I can't find late 17th century primary sources showing land forces. English Civil War sources are useless because the symbols were used to show allegiance, with Royalists using the Royal Banner, and Cromwell's forces using the St George cross. It's quite possible the St George cross was used more often after the English Civil War because of the conflict. <b>[[User:Rob984|Rob]]</b> ([[User talk:Rob984|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Rob984#top|contribs]]) 11:41, 30 June 2014 (UTC) |
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== Cornwall == |
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An IP editor has repeatedly included edits in the first paragraph to imply that modern-day England does not include Cornwall. This is false, see, e.g., [[Cornwall]]. Also, per [[WP:LEDE]], this does not belong in the first paragraph, as the rest of this article does not mention Cornwall at all. [[User:Logical Cowboy|Logical Cowboy]] ([[User talk:Logical Cowboy|talk]]) 17:09, 2 July 2014 (UTC) |
Revision as of 17:09, 2 July 2014
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references
i have added this page to my favourites and am going to reference it, my main paper text at home is the times historical atlas... not an ideal ref as it is probably mostly tertiary source and only covers major events and trends but at least it is reputable.................. if anyone can do better please go ahead.. it may take afew months to ref all this stuff here but please removers be patient! 82.27.221.233 (talk) 19:10, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
redirect question
Should this redirect to England and Wales ? Morwen 15:42, May 20, 2004 (UTC)
- No. "England and Wales" is a term for the legal unity of England and Wales, which still exists.
Former Kingdom - Emphasis on the 'Former'
- To answer the comment below: No, the *KINGDOM of England* does NOT still exist. In 1707, the Parliaments of Scotland and England created a new, semi-federal kingdom called the Kingdom of Great Britain. Note the name is the singular "Kingdom of Great Britain" not the plural "Kingdoms of Great Britain", clearly indicating the Kingdom of Great Britain was *one* country, not two.
- But the terms of the two Acts of Union of 1707 did provide for Scotland to retain its own systems of law, education and a few other things, separate from the rest of the country. So, there was one national government, which suggests a unitary state; but more than one systemic organisation, which suggests a federal state - hence, "semi-federal". The United Kingdom of Great Britain and (Northern) Ireland, extant since 1801, and like the Kingdom of Great Britain before it, is also semi-federal - more visibly so with the advent of "devolved assemblies" in Scotland and Wales.
- Thus, in many ways, England and Scotland since 1707, as well as contemporary Wales and Northern Ireland, are best described as "states" or "provinces" of the United Kingdom (of, 1707-1801, of Great Britain) - much in the way that Ontario, Michigan and Queensland are a province or states, respectively, of Canada, the USA and Australia. The important difference, however, is that Michigan, Queensland and Ontario are each sovereign jurisdictions within an equally sovereign confederacy, whose federal state is greater than the sum of its part; whereas England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are *not* sovereign jurisdictions, but are subordinate jurisdictions to the semi-federal/semi-unitary United Kingdom. The four "provinces" are thus best described, at this time, as "administrative divisions".
- So, while "There'll Always Be an England", it's been 300+ years since it was a kingdom.
- The "Kingdom of England" is the former kingdom that existed until 1707, which included Wales for two centuries.
- can we remember that this article covers the kingdom of england up until 1707. in fact as far as i understand the kingdom of england still exists but the king or queen takes the style "of Great Britain" a geographical area but this means that they are actually the king or queen of england and scotland, anyway that is what was said in 1707. but this article has been defined to be about the historical nation up to 1707 which seems fair enuf to me.
- several comments below to me seem to be ignoring the fact that this is a historical article and i suggest that all material such as maps, flags etc relates to the period of the article ie up to 1707, which i think they do looking at the page.
- can we remember that this article covers the kingdom of england up until 1707. in fact as far as i understand the kingdom of england still exists but the king or queen takes the style "of Great Britain" a geographical area but this means that they are actually the king or queen of england and scotland, anyway that is what was said in 1707. but this article has been defined to be about the historical nation up to 1707 which seems fair enuf to me.
- The "Kingdom of England" is the former kingdom that existed until 1707, which included Wales for two centuries.
Elizabeth II cf. Elizabeth I
A couple of errors and omissions below:
1. The Union of Crowns happened in 1603, not 1601 2. The Queen is also descended from several of the Kings and Princes of Wales, as well as Brian Boru and a few other High Kings of Ireland
The post-1707 numeration of monarchs follows the Anglo-Norman model, so it is relevant that she is Queen Elizabeth II because England, Ireland and Wales had a previous queen regnant named Elizabeth - but Scotland did not.
Similarly, pre-1707 William and Mary had these numbers: She was Mary II of all three countries (i.e., Mary II, Queen of Scots; Mary II, Queen of England; and Mary II, Queen of Ireland); while he was William III, King of England; William II, King of Scots; and William I, King of Ireland. But when Queen Victoria's Uncle William came to the throne just before her, he was William IV of the United Kingdom - because the numbering picked up from the highest previous number.
So, Prince William will eventually be William V - unless he chooses a different reign name (like the Queen's father, whose first name was 'Albert', and all his friends and family called him "Bertie"; but he took the reign name "George VI").
It will be interesting to see what happens if there is ever an heir to the throne named James. Scotland had seven Kings James while England, Wales and Ireland had just the last two - both before the Acts of Union of 1707. So, would the first King James of the United Kingdom be James VIII or James III? The apparent precedent would suggest James VIII but most British constitutional experts would probably conject James III; but as the post-1714 royal family have generally avoided the name James (and 'Henry', too, until Princess Diana gave it to her second son), preferring 'George' instead, we won't have an answer any time soon.
- Anyone object to me pointing out that the current Queen is a succesor to the Kings and Queens of England AND Scotland?
- No major objection, but I'm not sure it's relevant for this article. Maybe that's something to put at Kingdom of Scotland?--JW1805 16:46, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
- why should this be in scotch medieval section any more than in this one. it is relevant to this section to point out that E II R descends from 1/ the Anglo-Saxon kings 2/ the Normans and Plantagenets and 3/ the Tudors who originted in Wales, as all 3 of these are relevant to this article anyway, whether or not the current queen descends from them. but the other fact of her descent from scottish royals is no more relevant to this page than if she were descended from the high kings of ireland or an Arawak cheif from jamaica, she is a queen yet in those places but that fact is not connected to the topic of this article which is england till 1707.
but for any articles about scotland, q e ii herself or the royal family in general the fact of descent from scots as well could be mentioned.
- actually this article covers the personal union of the crowns in 1601, and it could be pointed out at the end of the history in this article that q e ii descends from the stewart kings of england via the stewart daughter who married german royalty - obviously specifically; anyway it is almost certainly already in history of england ; i have just read it in the section on george I; the acknowledged right to the throne is from elizabeth the daughter of james I of england, the first stuart king of england... i think there is no need to say any more about scotland than would anyway be said about scotland in this article due to the personal union of 1601 anyway.
change of title
perhaps for clarification title could be amended to Kingdom of England till 1707 ? please comment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.27.221.233 (talk) 17:19, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
Map
It seems people are inisting on a wildly inappropriate map being on the page. The map shows the borders of present-day England. However, from 1536 to 1707, the Kingdom included Wales. Prior to 1536, the border between the Kingdom of England, and the Welsh areas, was not the same as it was now - the border was set at the same time as the Kingdom annexed Wales. This means that the border shown in the map has never been the actual border of the Kingdom with Wales. Morwen - Talk 16:48, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
- It isn't "wildly inappropriate". Sure the borders may have been different before 1536, but this map shows the most recent border. Other countries have had boundary changes, but the infoboxes only have one map. As for including Wales, the England article map doesn't have Wales, even though legally, even today, England includes Wales. It is generally understood what "England", "Wales", and "England and Wales" mean. --JW1805 (Talk) 17:29, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
This article as explained in its early parts not by me presumably by early authours is about pre-1707. b4 tudors wales was a separate jurisdiction from England as a nation but was a dependant fief of the English crown, similar to a colony in the 19th century. its laws and constitution were different but the sovereign was the same, and it was the sovereignty of wales that depended on the sovereignty of england and was mostly bestowed on the crown prince of england, just as it is formally bestowed on crown prince charles today. but i believe wales was not represented in the english parliament until the tudors united the lands. then wales became fully a part of england as a nation, but this article is about a kingdom not a nation and a kingdom derives from the king, which was the same person and it was not a personal union as the principality of wales was, ever since the defeat of Llewelyn the Last by Edward I, in the gift and under the sovereignty of England. Therefore the map of the kingdom of england shown should actually show the domains of any particular king of england for the time that he reigned, as this article concerns the kingdom. an indeed in those days whilst people certainly began to identify themselves as english etc there was very often a cult of personality and loyalty to the person of the monarch. the battle cry of aguncourt as reported in shakespeare "for god, harry and merry england" shows the typical triple loyalty of people in those days. i would like to see maps of the pre-1066, pre 1280, and post 1280 kingdom, but additons of interest would concern hexham shire and cuberland, changes in the welsh marches and princes acknowledging english suzerainty and any areas of france for example which actually were under the suzerainty of the english crown rather than being as in most cases the personal domains of the king of england but subject to the suzerainty of the kings of france. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.27.221.233 (talk) 18:05, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
arms
Why are the quartered arms of England and France being used for this page? Throughout much of England's history, it is true, the Kings of England used the arms pictured here (or its predecessor with "France ancient", azure seme-de-lis or); but that's because they claimed the throne of France. I'm going to swap in the English arms. Doops | talk 21:14, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
- The arms of England have changed throughout its history. These were the last arms used by the Kingdom of England, therefore it would be logical to use these. Astrotrain 13:35, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
File:J1&2,C1&2 Arms.png File:QuAn Arms.png
- Actually, some would argue that those first arms were the last used by the Kingdom of England. Did England become part of Great Britain with James, or with Anne (the second arms are postulated as the first held by Great Britain)? Regardless, Anne used the Jacobean arms before the (pro-Hanoverian) Parliament adapted to the Stuart practice of calling their collective island dominion "Great Britain". Regardless of Whiggish Parliamentary perceptions, the succession of James is to this day considered the "Union of the Crowns". That in my mind, makes these arms I provide the first of Great Britain and not the last of England. James himself called it Great Britain, while the Royal website begins the series of Great Britain at James--as do all genealogical charts. Cromwellians be damned, because the status of a kingdom rests on its Crown and not its Parliament--there is no British Republic (the US doesn't count, right?)! There are other reasons behind this madness. There is absolutely nobody from the middle or lower class with royal descent from King James, while the upper class calls itself British--totally anathema to those not of this social status. I think it can probably be further proved that there is nobody from the lesser classes with Protestant Royal ancestors--just Roman Catholic kings (am I right or wrong?). IP Address 13:53, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
The title of Queen (and King) of England has however been out of use since 1707
I'm not sure if this sentence is entirely accurate. Perhaps we should specify official or formal usage. Glennh70 01:12, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
- Monarchs have informally been ascribed these titles since 1603, but calling James I of England is just as retroactively like somebody calling Philip I of Spain "King of Aragon" instead. The constituent countries of Castile and Aragon have not been separated since Philip Habsburg, neither have England and Scotland been separated since James Stuart. This politique of the Stuarts was fought harshly by Parliament, but it is true that it was no different from the Habsburgs--which is why the practice was hated. Reinterpretation of history and that liberal spin of Whiggery descending from Robert Dudley, 1st Earl of Leicester (via Oliver Cromwell) does nothing but brainwash schoolchildren into believing otherwise. The revisionist interpretations I am talking about, are the advancement of Protestantism in the British Isles and this is further explained in the omission of King Philip from the Royal website beside Mary--unlike the equal status shown for William and Mary. As a descendent of those Conservative recusants who had priest holes, I will not give in to Liberal Protesant bigotry. There was a United Kingdom of Spain, which preceded in idea a United Kingdom of Great Britain...a Union of the Crowns for both countries. But keep on believing in the Black Legend. IP Address 14:20, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
As far as the Scots are concerned, James IV was most definitely James I of England, but James IV of Scotland because of the numbering differences. I'm not sure if there's been any problems since the James' with the numbering, but it could be something that's an issue in the future. Therefore, it's not entirely accurate to say that the title King/Queen of England is out of use because it has a specific meaning with regard to differentiating between the royal lines north and south of the border. (I would also like to suggest that most of the previous poster's point has little to do with the actual issue and more to do with their own personal bias. William and Mary cannot be compared to Philip and Mary - the circumstances of both marriages and accessions were completely different.) Emo mz (talk) 23:15, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
End of the English state?
This whole article, and dozens like it, are fundamentally flawed. They keep insisting that the English state came to an end in 1707, but nothing could be further from the truth. All that happened in that year was the annexation of Scotland, and the adoption of the name Great Britain (which had already been in use for a century). All the English institutions survived, and survive to this day. TharkunColl 08:39, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
So, for that matter, did the Scottish ones, if you mean by institutions legal systems, church settlements and the like. I think it far too strong to say that Scotland was 'annexed' in 1707, which would make the Union the exact equivalent of that imposed by Cromwell. I do, however, take your point; it is nonsense to contend that England somehow ceased to exist after 1707, an argument that takes as its point of departure a very narrow and legalistic view of political facts. The simple truth is that the union of 1707-and the later union of 1801-was never a combination of equals: England for whole series of factors was bound to be the dominant partner. It was the accepted form right into the twentieth century to refer to the United Kingdom as England-even Prime Ministers like Henry Campbell Bannerman, Arthur Balfour and Ramsay MacDonald, all born in Scotland, did so. Rcpaterson 02:40, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
"Annexed" is not only far too strong, it is also entirely incorrect and insulting to the Scots. It was a Union, not an annexation. It makes as much sense as saying Scotland annexed England in 1707 i.e. no sense at all. It is inconsequential that it wasn't a union of equals. The fact of the matter, whether people like it or not, is that England (and for that matter Scotland) is not an independent state by any definition and will remain a constituent country of the sovereign state of United Kingdom until such times as their population decide otherwise. A bit like the old Soviet Union and its constituent countries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wee Man 68 (talk • contribs) 04:42, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
Subnational capacity for government did not have any chance of dissolving the Union; it was not independent but confederate. Lord Loxley 01:11, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
- Huh?Enzedbrit 01:55, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
See below. Lord Loxley 15:20, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
National Coat of Arms and National Flag
Maybe some consensus should form as to the proper coat of arms and flag which represents the entity in this article. If England continued with the Stuarts, then those emblems such as the Union flag and Stuart arms should be represented. This would cause conflict with the Kingdom of Scotland article, for them to both use them and not be the same country. If England ended with the Tudors and Scotland ended with the Stewarts, then the present symbols may remain. See Talk:Kingdom_of_Great_Britain#1603-1707 for the background discussion on this. Lord Loxley 15:17, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
shouldnt the arms used for the article not be the ultimate arms clearly those of stewart long associated with scotland before becoming english as well but the royal arms of england which were mostly the three lions... although i believe the normans used two at first... surely it is those arms that were used longest "armigerously" that should be used? and the same for flags. as for maps there is a case for a series say 2-3 or up to 5 showing the most significant aquisitions and losses82.27.221.233 (talk) 17:46, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
The first national flag of England was the first Union Flag, adopted in 1606, prior to that, England did not have any national flag. The St. George’s Cross came from the Order of the Garter (whose patron was St. George), and that was used for England. Scotland already had a national flag, the Sltire of St. Andrew, so the St. George’s Cross as English was invented to fuse with the Scottish flag. The Saint George’s was originally an international religious banner of the Crusades. It was re-invented as an English national flag by fans of the England football team around 1996 as a reaction against Scotland, Northern Ireland And Wales. It is still considered the football flag as the national flag remains the Union Flag. If a flag is to be put in the infix box, it should be the first Union Flag. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.48.66.76 (talk) 08:44, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
Fair use rationale for Image:QuAn Arms.png
Image:QuAn Arms.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 23:15, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
England a vassal of the Holy Roman Empire?
81.156.41.61 (talk · contribs) inserted the following into the article: “The Kingdom of England was a sovereign state until the reign of Richard I, who made it a vassal of the Holy Roman Empire. During the reign of his brother John "Lackland" the Kingdom became a tribute-paying vassal of the Holy See until the fourteenth century when the Kingdom rejected the overlordship of the Holy See and re-established its sovereignty.”
This seems like WP:OR. 81.156.41.61 also inserted similar statements into the Holy Roman Empire article, but they were removed here. Because these claims are questionable and unsourced, I have removed them from the article. --Kjetil r (talk) 02:46, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
England was made a fief of the Holy Roman Empire as part of Richard's ransom. Richard had to basically acknowledge Henry VI as his overlord and lease back his Kingdom. See [1], Henry VI's entry in the Hutchison Dictionary of Ancient and Medieval Warfare [2]. Likewise John made England and Ireland into Papal fiefs as part of his capitulation to Innocent III in 1213 in the dispute over Langton's election as Archbishop of Canterbury see [3]. As these are quite major changes in England's status they deserve to be included in the article.81.155.196.183 (talk) 15:09, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
'Union with Scotland' and 'Flag'
why is there no 'Union with Scotland' and 'Flag' sections like on Kingdom of Scotland —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.152.82.128 (talk) 18:01, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
- Good thought, and I've added a 'Union with Scotland' section. If you feel a paragraph or two on 'Flag' is needed, then I see no objection to your adding something. Moonraker2 (talk) 14:32, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
predecessor states
I was thinking maybe it's a bit misleading to have the Principality of Wales listed under states that preceded the kingdom of England. It didn't exist until 1216 and wasn't really annexed (a part of it it anyway) until the time of Edward I. Maybe I'm missing something but I was thinking of removing it but wanted to check first.90.233.167.244 (talk) 09:45, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
Kingdom of England has no founding date.
England was founded when Egbert took over all the thrones of the little Kingdoms. Before this, it wasn't England. It's no use talking about Roman times, this was before a Kingdom was formed. 2.97.165.193 (talk) 13:13, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
The City of Westminster, near to London but not part of it
Westminster is in London, but not the city of London. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.189.103.145 (talk) 10:53, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
Coat of Arms
I'm guessing the Coat of Arms used between 1558–1603 is shown because this was before the Union of the crowns however the Kingdom did continue to exist up until 1707 therefore shouldn't the 1702-1707 Coat of Arms be used instead? Regards, Rob (talk) 20:12, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
Ireland, possession or part of the kingdom?
Ireland was never a Royal Colony or Crown Colony. I've noticed that the Kingdom of England is often described as covering both Southern Britain and Ireland and the Kingdom of Great Britain is often described as covering both Great Britain and Ireland. Is it possible that Ireland was part of the Kingdom of England/Great Britain, rather then a possession? Also, the term 'kingdom' was originally used to describe any region with a king, thus Ireland could be called the 'kingdom of Ireland', even if it was only a constituent region of the Kingdom of England/Great Britain. Regards, Rob (talk) 21:16, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
- In both cases, "often described" is an overstatement. Ireland was never considered part of England or of Great Britain, and there is all kinds of evidence for that. In particular, hundreds of years of legislation throw light on the relationships between the kingdoms of the British Isles. Ireland had its own parliament and until 1801 was not represented in the House of Lords, the House of Commons of England or the House of Commons of Great Britain. Moonraker (talk) 10:35, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
Common and Official name
Although the common name of this state today is the Kingdom of England, historically I would assume the official name was in fact 'England', likewise with Canada today, which is a kingdom, however is not referred to as the 'Kingdom of Canada'. As currently the successor to the state was officially called 'Great Britain', I think we can assume this state is called 'England' unless evidence is provided suggesting otherwise. If this is uncontroversial, I will add 'England' to the opening sentence as with other articles which official name is listed as well as there common name. Regards, Rob (talk) 15:01, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- Done. Regards, Rob (talk) 19:32, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
- You can't "assume" anything. Changes made must be backed up by citations. I'm going to undo your changes but feel free to provide evidence to back up your claim. Source 3 refers to "Kingdom of England" so for now we should revert to the status quo until further sources are presented. Polyamorph (talk) 19:46, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
Westminster listed as the capitol
Westminster is a London borough not an independent city. Why is the borough listed and London as England's capitol??72.204.66.161 (talk) 03:53, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- As stated in the article you linked to, London boroughs were created in 1963. The period during which the article claims Westminster was the capital (not capitol, which is something different) is 1066-1707, a time when Westminster was not "part of London". I assume that the reason Westminster is claimed to be the capital is because it was the seat of government. However, the claim to be "t8he capital" is unsourced. I'm not really sure this is justified. Talking of "capitals" at this time is slightly anachronistic as there wasn't an "official status" at the time. I would think London would have as good a claim as it was clearly England's pre-eminent city throughout the period. DeCausa (talk) 07:22, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- In the 16th century the City of Westminster and City of London conjoined to form a single metropolitan area, however it wasn't until 1889 that the entire region was described as 'London'. At the time, Westminster still had most of the characteristics of modern-day capitals, most noticeably the seat of government. There still isn't official status defining the capital of the UK today, so I don't think its anachronistic as such. Rob (talk) 11:20, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- I saw the footnote you added, but what does it add to the issue? What's needed is an WP:RS cited. I did a quick search on google books and from what I can see London is referred to as the medieval/early modern capital in most secondary sources. I saw a small group of 19th century and early 20th century sources that referred to Westminster. On the whole I'm quite sceptical of the proposition that Westminster should be called the capital. DeCausa (talk) 16:42, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- I haven't analysed any sources, however I do think it would be likely that the entire metropolitan area would be described as 'London' from the 15th century in secondary sources, although not at the time. I don't know if you are talking about London or the City of London though. Rob (talk) 17:10, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- London#Middle Ages has some information concerning this. It states "While the City of Westminster developed into a true capital in governmental terms, its distinct neighbour, the City of London, remained England's largest city and principal commercial centre, and it flourished under its own unique administration, the Corporation of London. In 1100, its population was around 18,000; by 1300 it had grown to nearly 100,000". Rob (talk) 17:15, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- It doesn't matter whether they include Westminster in "London" or not. The point is they are not saying Westminster is the capital as far as I can see. DeCausa (talk) 17:19, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- From my weak understanding, 'London' is used today to refer to the City of London and its surrounding metropolitan area, which since the 16th century, has included the City of Westminster. I don't disagree that the metropolitan area of London has been the capital of England since the 16th century (as it has included Westminster), and therefore I'm fine with stating London as the capital since the 16th century. If you believe that 'London' was the capital of England before the 16th century (not including Westminster) then I would disagree considering the unique political status of the City of London, and the fact that it didn't contain the seat of government. Rob (talk) 18:28, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- It doesn't matter what you or I believe (or deduce from where the seat of government was or the extent that Westminster and London had merged). The only question is what WP:RS say about it. DeCausa (talk) 19:07, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- You're right. I don't entirely agree with the conclusion reliable secondary sources are drawing, but looking at the settlements, even before the 16th century 'London' could easily have been described as the capital of England, especially considering Westminster was not a city in the form it is today, but more an outer settlement of the much larger London. Rob (talk) 18:32, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
- Done. See edit summary. Regards, Rob (talk) 12:51, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
- Why have you done that? Your note says: "Before the 16th century, Westminster and the City of London formed separate conurbations, however due to there [sic] close proximity, the entire metropolitan area—known simply as 'London'—is described as the capital of England." Firstly, it's pure speculation on your part. Secondly, the reference to Westminster is now totally obscure. someone reading it is going to think: why mention Westminster? The best thing is to self-revert back to where it was originally. If there's going to be a change it should be on the basis of sources not random guesses. As I said, I saw some references in google books to London being the capital and some to Westminster. If you can't find a specific source which discusses the issue I suggest putting in both with citations for each. You don't have information to speculate on whether the references to Westminster and London are because of their physical connection, that's pure guesswork on your part. DeCausa (talk) 20:18, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
- It doesn't matter what you or I believe (or deduce from where the seat of government was or the extent that Westminster and London had merged). The only question is what WP:RS say about it. DeCausa (talk) 19:07, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- From my weak understanding, 'London' is used today to refer to the City of London and its surrounding metropolitan area, which since the 16th century, has included the City of Westminster. I don't disagree that the metropolitan area of London has been the capital of England since the 16th century (as it has included Westminster), and therefore I'm fine with stating London as the capital since the 16th century. If you believe that 'London' was the capital of England before the 16th century (not including Westminster) then I would disagree considering the unique political status of the City of London, and the fact that it didn't contain the seat of government. Rob (talk) 18:28, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- It doesn't matter whether they include Westminster in "London" or not. The point is they are not saying Westminster is the capital as far as I can see. DeCausa (talk) 17:19, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- I saw the footnote you added, but what does it add to the issue? What's needed is an WP:RS cited. I did a quick search on google books and from what I can see London is referred to as the medieval/early modern capital in most secondary sources. I saw a small group of 19th century and early 20th century sources that referred to Westminster. On the whole I'm quite sceptical of the proposition that Westminster should be called the capital. DeCausa (talk) 16:42, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- In the 16th century the City of Westminster and City of London conjoined to form a single metropolitan area, however it wasn't until 1889 that the entire region was described as 'London'. At the time, Westminster still had most of the characteristics of modern-day capitals, most noticeably the seat of government. There still isn't official status defining the capital of the UK today, so I don't think its anachronistic as such. Rob (talk) 11:20, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
This source describes Westminster as being part of London, and that the town developed separate political and commercial centres.
This source describes Westminster as being part of London, and that the metropolitan became the capital of England in the 12th century.
This source states that Westminster became the administrative centre in the 12th century.
I think both can be stated as 'City of London' and 'Westminster', or simply 'London' with a ref tag clarifying that Westminster is part of the 'London', and that the metropolitan effectively had two centres.
Regards, Rob (talk) 22:02, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
- Based on sources, it could be present as:
- Winchester (927–12th century)
- London (12th century–1707)
- Westminster (administrative)
- City of London (commercial)
- As "London" appears to commonly describe both conurbations since Westminster was formed in the 11th century, I don't think they necessarily need to be stated below "London", and could be placed in a note tag instead.
- Also, maps of the metropolitan show that sometime before 1707, Westminster and the City of London had conjoined, and no sources appear to describe "Westminster" as the capital of Great Britain exclusively, thus they would not need to be listed on the Kingdom of Great Britain article.
- Although some sources do describe "Westminster" as the capital exclusively, this is a minority, and listing "London" and "Westminster" separately, will cause the reader to assume "London" doesn't include Westminster, which is not what any sources are suggesting.
- Rob (talk) 11:56, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
- Done. DeCausa, as per above, I have made edits here, on Kingdom of Great Britain and on UKGBI. Regards, Rob (talk) 18:32, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
Date of formation of the Kingdom
The kingdom of the English was declared in 886, when Alfred the Great declared himself King of the English, at a time when the English regions were divided between his kingdom, and the Danelaw. From 910, the kingdom of the English invaded the Danelaw in a series offensives, until 927 when all of the English regions formed part of the unified English kingdom. Rather then defining the formation of the Kingdom of England as 927, instead I think we should state early 10th century, as the kingdom was established gradually, not on a specific date. Thoughts? Regards, Rob (talk) 18:02, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
- I agree we can't and shouldn't be too specific. We don't really have one date and even if we did alight on one, we could cite several others besides. Maybe, even, more vaguely "10th century"? N-HH talk/edits 09:36, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
Flag
I removed the long-standing Saint George cross since I doubt it was used in primacy. The nearest to what we today call a national flag is probably the Royal Banner.
The Royal Banner of the British monarch used by naval and land forces in 1700 was:
The part of the Royal Banner that represents England was:
And the part that excludes England's monarch's claim to the French throne was:
And there's also the Saint George cross, which was used by the English naval forces until 1606, and land forces until 1707:
And the Union Flag used by the English naval forces from 1606 to 1707:
Thoughts? Rob (talk | contribs) 16:23, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Either the 3 lions banner or the St. George's cross work for me. They're both recognizable a symbols of England. While none of these was used exclusively for the entire history of the Kingdom, we should have some flag as a national symbol, and either of these work well. --Jayron32 13:42, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
- Without reference to reliable sources, we shouldn't display anything, as it's potentially misleading. By showing one symbol, it implies that symbol is superior to all others, which may not be the case. Also, generally, the symbol used directly before the entity ceased to exist is used in infoboxes, so long-term significance is irrelevant. – Rob (talk | contribs) 15:34, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
Rob, the damage you have done to articles concerning England and it's heraldry is simply appalling. Once again I will be going through the highest channels of complaint concerning your conduct as, thanks to your efforts, I am not aware of a single article on England which displays any of our national symbols. - H (talk) 17:53, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
- Just some data points for the use of various flags: Wilton Diptych (St. George's cross), File:John Ball encouraging Wat Tyler rebels from ca 1470 MS of Froissart Chronicles in BL.jpg (Both St. George's cross and quartered Lion/Fluer De Lys flag), File:BattleofSluys.jpeg (quartered Lion/Fluer de Lys flag), File:Cernoch.jpg showing both. --Jayron32 10:59, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
We can rule out the union flag as primary sources don't support the claim that it was used by naval forces.[1][2] Rob (talk | contribs) 10:36, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
I can't find late 17th century primary sources showing land forces. English Civil War sources are useless because the symbols were used to show allegiance, with Royalists using the Royal Banner, and Cromwell's forces using the St George cross. It's quite possible the St George cross was used more often after the English Civil War because of the conflict. Rob (talk | contribs) 11:41, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
Cornwall
An IP editor has repeatedly included edits in the first paragraph to imply that modern-day England does not include Cornwall. This is false, see, e.g., Cornwall. Also, per WP:LEDE, this does not belong in the first paragraph, as the rest of this article does not mention Cornwall at all. Logical Cowboy (talk) 17:09, 2 July 2014 (UTC)