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::In each of those cases it is about a single person (or two in one case, and that one Id probably rename too), here the story is that the army killed three hostages. And I very much doubt that people are searching for these names as opposed to ''army killed hostages''. '''[[User talk:Nableezy|<span style="color:#C11B17;font-size:90%">nableezy</span>]]''' - 15:00, 19 December 2023 (UTC) |
::In each of those cases it is about a single person (or two in one case, and that one Id probably rename too), here the story is that the army killed three hostages. And I very much doubt that people are searching for these names as opposed to ''army killed hostages''. '''[[User talk:Nableezy|<span style="color:#C11B17;font-size:90%">nableezy</span>]]''' - 15:00, 19 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:'''Oppose'''. Proposed name is not specific as it is plausible (and claimed by Hamas) that other hostages were accidentally killed by Israel, and the number three is not sufficient for precision. Other articles such as [[Killing of Osama bin Laden]] include the person name. This might be renamed in the future if a common name emerges. [[User:Marokwitz|Marokwitz]] ([[User talk:Marokwitz|talk]]) 08:09, 20 December 2023 (UTC) |
:'''Oppose'''. Proposed name is not specific as it is plausible (and claimed by Hamas) that other hostages were accidentally killed by Israel, and the number three is not sufficient for precision. Other articles such as [[Killing of Osama bin Laden]] include the person name. This might be renamed in the future if a common name emerges. [[User:Marokwitz|Marokwitz]] ([[User talk:Marokwitz|talk]]) 08:09, 20 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::Can you please provide a single reliable source that says these people were not killed by the Israeli army? Because on its face, with Israel investigations finding that one soldier shot all three initially and then several more shot the last one when he came back out of the building, that strikes me as the most baldly untrue assertion I’ve seen made on Wikipedia in years. '''[[User talk:Nableezy|<span style="color:#C11B17;font-size:90%">nableezy</span>]]''' - 15:06, 21 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:'''Strongly Oppose''' A concise title is in place. Further details should appear in the lead, just as in other cases like [[Killing of Osama bin Laden]] and not ''United State Army killing of Osama bin Laden''. |
:'''Strongly Oppose''' A concise title is in place. Further details should appear in the lead, just as in other cases like [[Killing of Osama bin Laden]] and not ''United State Army killing of Osama bin Laden''. |
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:Lets use the same standards as in the case of the kidnapping and murder of three Israeli boys by Hamas [[2014 Gush Etzion kidnapping and murder]] - where the title does not mention the one who did the killing. [[User:GidiD|GidiD]] ([[User talk:GidiD|talk]]) 08:57, 20 December 2023 (UTC) |
:Lets use the same standards as in the case of the kidnapping and murder of three Israeli boys by Hamas [[2014 Gush Etzion kidnapping and murder]] - where the title does not mention the one who did the killing. [[User:GidiD|GidiD]] ([[User talk:GidiD|talk]]) 08:57, 20 December 2023 (UTC) |
Revision as of 15:06, 21 December 2023
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Requested move 18 December 2023
Killing of Alon Shamriz, Yotam Haim, and Samer Talalka → Israeli army killing of three Israeli hostages – The names of the people killed arent the story here, and this violates WP:CONCISE and WP:NOTMEMORIAL nableezy - 18:31, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
- Support a move to Israel Defense Forces killing of three Israeli hostages. Gets across the same idea, while being more specific. XTheBedrockX (talk) 01:51, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
- Weak oppose I don't see how this violates WP:CONCISE or WP:NOTMEMORIAL. The "Killing of [name(s) of victims]" is what appears to be typically used on Wikipedia, even when the victims are non-notable (see Killing of Hadeel al-Hashlamon, Killing of Sa'ad Muhammad Youssef al-Atrash, Killing of Abdel Fattah al-Sharif, Killing of Avi Sasportas and Ilan Saadon, Killing of Yuval Castleman). Mooonswimmer 09:25, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
- In each of those cases it is about a single person (or two in one case, and that one Id probably rename too), here the story is that the army killed three hostages. And I very much doubt that people are searching for these names as opposed to army killed hostages. nableezy - 15:00, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose. Proposed name is not specific as it is plausible (and claimed by Hamas) that other hostages were accidentally killed by Israel, and the number three is not sufficient for precision. Other articles such as Killing of Osama bin Laden include the person name. This might be renamed in the future if a common name emerges. Marokwitz (talk) 08:09, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
- Can you please provide a single reliable source that says these people were not killed by the Israeli army? Because on its face, with Israel investigations finding that one soldier shot all three initially and then several more shot the last one when he came back out of the building, that strikes me as the most baldly untrue assertion I’ve seen made on Wikipedia in years. nableezy - 15:06, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
- Strongly Oppose A concise title is in place. Further details should appear in the lead, just as in other cases like Killing of Osama bin Laden and not United State Army killing of Osama bin Laden.
- Lets use the same standards as in the case of the kidnapping and murder of three Israeli boys by Hamas 2014 Gush Etzion kidnapping and murder - where the title does not mention the one who did the killing. GidiD (talk) 08:57, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
- Support. While I agree and appreciate that the standard way to do this should be "Killing of [names]", I think this should be an exception. The incident and the article *are* about the fact that the country killed hostages from that country, and that is what's notable. In the examples above (except OBL), the victim is non-notable, but their killing is notable for the general reaction to it. It would be futile to try figuring out a new title to explain why a generic murder was relevant in every single case. Moreover, adding who killed them would not actually clarify anything in most cases. "American killing of OBL" doesn't explain anything. In this case, there is a clear way to explain in the title why this was notable. It was notable because the IDF killed three Israeli hostages. This is a very rare case, but the title should be a variation of that in the name of clarity. lethargilistic (talk) 23:05, 20 December 2023 (UTC)