m →COMMONNAME source analysis: typo |
TaivoLinguist (talk | contribs) |
||
Line 520: | Line 520: | ||
: Or maybe the moratorium was disrupting the article by preserving a title that has become an indefensible fossil. I appreciate your desire for quiet on this talk page, [[user:Kahastok|Kahastok]], but I think you may have lost track of the need for us to respond to changing English usage in the rest of the world. I’m looking forward to the ArbCom process. ''—[[User:Mzajac |Michael]] [[User talk:Mzajac |Z.]] <small>2020-07-04 18:41 z</small>'' |
: Or maybe the moratorium was disrupting the article by preserving a title that has become an indefensible fossil. I appreciate your desire for quiet on this talk page, [[user:Kahastok|Kahastok]], but I think you may have lost track of the need for us to respond to changing English usage in the rest of the world. I’m looking forward to the ArbCom process. ''—[[User:Mzajac |Michael]] [[User talk:Mzajac |Z.]] <small>2020-07-04 18:41 z</small>'' |
||
::The problem [[User:Mzajac]] is that English usage was not changing as fast as you and the other crusaders wanted so you wanted Wikipedia to force change rather than describe change. The moratorium actually allowed real changes to the article to be discussed and made without being drowned in the torrent of nationalistic fervor and invective that the name change advocates have always brought with them. --[[User:TaivoLinguist|TaivoLinguist (Taivo)]] ([[User talk:TaivoLinguist|talk]]) 19:29, 4 July 2020 (UTC) |
Revision as of 19:29, 4 July 2020
Kyiv was a Geography and places good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||||
Current status: Former good article nominee |
This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||||
This page has archives. Sections older than 90 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present. |
|
|||||||||||||||
|
Revert
User:Ymblanter, learn the wikipedia rules, please, although you should have done it long before. There is only one state language in Ukraine, so we don't need to add the translation into any other languages, except for Ukrainian. For instance, we don't add the name of Moscow in the Uzbek language --Devlet Geray (talk) 09:25, 22 March 2020 (UTC) p.s. I am not against Kiev as the name of the article --Devlet Geray (talk) 09:28, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
- There is no single policy of the English Wikipedia which says we should only give the name in the state language. Quite the opposite. Since you apparently are familiar with the policies much better than I am (thank you for kindly advising me to learn the policies), it must be trivially easy for you to find what exactly applies here.--Ymblanter (talk) 09:38, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
- Why doesn't new york have it's name in spanish then? Blindlynx (talk) 20:49, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- Because Spanish was never the state language of New York, while Russian was, indeed, the state language of Ukraine for a few centuries. Check out Lviv where Polish is included because, wait for it, Lviv was part of Poland for centuries. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 01:19, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
- So is it because of historical ownership or "languages a significant part of their population speak"? if it's the former why not have Munsee and Dutch in the article for New York? Blindlynx (talk) 13:01, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
- Because there is no longer a significant portion of the population of New York that speak either Dutch or Munsee. Don't even try to claim that there is not a significant portion of the population of Kyiv that speaks Russian. So Russian and Polish (and Hungarian in Transcarpathia) are former state languages AND still have significant portions of the population that speak them in those cities (I've spoken Hungarian in Uzhhorod and seen the Polish flags around Lviv). --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 15:02, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
- You saying Lviv has a significant portion of the population that still speaks Latin? or Gdańsk one that speaks German?Blindlynx (talk) 17:13, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
- You are straying into silliness now. The bottom line is that you can find examples of anything in Wikipedia, that's why we always remember WP:OTHERSTUFF. If you're trying to do something unique, there is a problem, but if what you are doing is done elsewhere then that's probably OK. But ultimately each article is individual and bound by WP:CONSENSUS at that article. You don't have any consensus here for your POV. You're just pushing a Ukrainian-only agenda that you will find no support for among the majority of English-speaking editors who work on the English Wikipedia. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 19:27, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
- I'm not pushing for anything, i'm not the one who changed it. I'm just trying to understand what the justification for leaving out Polish, or Lithuanian or whatever here is. It's infuriating that everything is so inconsistently applied! Lviv gets a pile or languages (including Russian) and honestly i think that's probably what should happen here too but i'm not going to change it without figuring out what it should be, given how heating this page always gets.Blindlynx (talk) 19:59, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
- "just trying to understand" is pretty simple. Every page is different until you can convince a majority of the editors of a given page that it isn't. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 00:01, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- I'm not pushing for anything, i'm not the one who changed it. I'm just trying to understand what the justification for leaving out Polish, or Lithuanian or whatever here is. It's infuriating that everything is so inconsistently applied! Lviv gets a pile or languages (including Russian) and honestly i think that's probably what should happen here too but i'm not going to change it without figuring out what it should be, given how heating this page always gets.Blindlynx (talk) 19:59, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
- You are straying into silliness now. The bottom line is that you can find examples of anything in Wikipedia, that's why we always remember WP:OTHERSTUFF. If you're trying to do something unique, there is a problem, but if what you are doing is done elsewhere then that's probably OK. But ultimately each article is individual and bound by WP:CONSENSUS at that article. You don't have any consensus here for your POV. You're just pushing a Ukrainian-only agenda that you will find no support for among the majority of English-speaking editors who work on the English Wikipedia. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 19:27, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
- You saying Lviv has a significant portion of the population that still speaks Latin? or Gdańsk one that speaks German?Blindlynx (talk) 17:13, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
- Because there is no longer a significant portion of the population of New York that speak either Dutch or Munsee. Don't even try to claim that there is not a significant portion of the population of Kyiv that speaks Russian. So Russian and Polish (and Hungarian in Transcarpathia) are former state languages AND still have significant portions of the population that speak them in those cities (I've spoken Hungarian in Uzhhorod and seen the Polish flags around Lviv). --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 15:02, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
- So is it because of historical ownership or "languages a significant part of their population speak"? if it's the former why not have Munsee and Dutch in the article for New York? Blindlynx (talk) 13:01, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
- Because Spanish was never the state language of New York, while Russian was, indeed, the state language of Ukraine for a few centuries. Check out Lviv where Polish is included because, wait for it, Lviv was part of Poland for centuries. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 01:19, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
- Why doesn't new york have it's name in spanish then? Blindlynx (talk) 20:49, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- The actual style guideline is at MOS:FORLANG. The other why’s mentioned above are not authoritative. —Michael Z. 2020-05-16 00:40 z
- I find it humorous that someone actually quotes a manual of style entry that includes the word "typically". That's not a hard and fast rule because you can find multiple exceptions to it no matter what region of the world you look at. In other words, "typically" means "on the average", not "must". Editors ignore MOS:FORLANG and WP:CONSENSUS overrides it. It works like a guideline, not as a hard and fast policy. Don't try to wikilawyer it, local consensus will always trump it. Look at the top of the page for MOS:FORLANG and you will see the keyword "guideline" and not "policy". Michael Z is wrong, the MOS is not authoritative over consensus because it's just a guideline. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 07:14, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- Nice one. Can you quote the parts that were “wrong” and “wikilawyering”? Because I’m not seeing them. You know, in what I wrote, not in your slagging me. —Michael Z. 2020-05-16 16:43 z 16:43, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- Tht's easy. You were wrong in your implication that discussion is over because you posted a link to a "guideline" as if it were authoritative and consensus was not. Insisting that a guideline is more authoritative than local consensus is wikilawyering. Whether you were "insisting" or not is open to interpretation, but in the context of the discussion when you flatly said that only your post is authoritative was over-the-top wikilawyering and was wrong because a consensus always trumps a guideline. I haven't even mentioned that the wording of the guideline is open to local interpretation and doesn't lay down a hard and fast rule. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 19:17, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- Nice one. Can you quote the parts that were “wrong” and “wikilawyering”? Because I’m not seeing them. You know, in what I wrote, not in your slagging me. —Michael Z. 2020-05-16 16:43 z 16:43, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 June 2020
Its population in July 2015 was 2,887,974[1] (though higher estimated numbers have been cited in the press),[12] making Kiev the sixth-most populous city in Europe.
This needs to be changed to seventh-most populous city in Europe. Ianmci (talk) 05:37, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
This needs to be changed to seventh-most populous city in Europe Ianmci (talk) 05:38, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
Requested move 1 July 2020
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: not moved. Procedural close due to offwiki canvassing. I am also enacting a provisional move moratorium of 2 years. Having this perennial request listed even every year is too much. I'm not sure about previous moratoriums, so some adjustments to this one are possible. If the Arbitration Committee chooses to examine this, I will of course defer to their respective decision. El_C 15:12, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- Update: Since this was a scheduled move request, a new one will take place soon, before the moratorium comes into effect. El_C 16:08, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- Second update: the matter is now before the Arbitration Committee. These proceedings are suspended pending their decision. El_C 11:18, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
Since October 2019 when the ban/moratorium was established, the following updates have happened (per Atlantic Council's article from October 21, 2019 entitled Kyiv not Kiev: Why spelling matters in Ukraine’s quest for an independent identity, "A number of global heavyweights have recently adopted the Ukrainian-language derived 'Kyiv' as their official spelling for the country’s capital city, replacing the Russian-rooted 'Kiev.'). Specifically, a couple of changes have happened: 1) all major English publications that used their own stylebook have made updates to their styleguides and now use Kyiv spelling, 2) all major English publications that use standard stylebooks (e.g., Associated Press Stylebook or Canadian Press Stylebook) are now following recent updates in those styleguides and are now using Kyiv, 3) IATA has switched to Kyiv and therefore all international airports have updated their English spelling to Kyiv, 4) BGN has switched to Kyiv and, therefore, all major geographical bodies followed suite and are now using Kyiv and, lastly, 5) The Library of Congress has switched to Kyiv and, therefore, all major library organizations followed suite and are now using Kyiv.
Below is the chronological list of those major updates:
- bne IntelliNews: January 2006. Official quote from bne IntelliNews: "bne IntelliNews has been using Kyiv since it was founded in 2006" (source: https://www.intellinews.com/more-publications-switch-from-kiev-to-kyiv-and-ignore-the-chicken-thing-166136/?source=ukraine ; archived-source: http://archive.is/ZQEHD)
- CBC: January 2011 (previously Kyiv was also used by CBC from 1999 to 2004). Official quote from CBC: "CBC News adopted the spelling Kyiv for the city in 2011". (source: https://www.cbc.ca/news2/indepth/words/kiev-or-kyiv.html , archived-source: http://archive.is/kpvo0
- Canadian Press: January 2018. Official quote from the Canadian Press Stylebook 18th edition: "The Canadian Press stylebook adopts the Ukrainian rather than the Russian spelling of Ukrainian capital: Kyiv" source: https://www.thecanadianpress.com/writing-guides/the-canadian-press-stylebook/
- Toronto Star: January 2018. Official quote from the Toronto Star: "We [at Toronto Star] follow The Canadian Press style (which adopts the Ukrainian rather than the Russian spelling). It’s Kyiv." source: https://www.thestar.com/trust/2018/01/26/the-stars-style-committee-on-the-importance-of-language.html ; archived-source: http://archive.is/d50oE
- The Guardian, 13 February 2019, Official quote from The Guardian: "From February 13 the capital of Ukraine will be written as Kyiv at The Guardian". (source @The Guardian styleguide: https://www.theguardian.com/guardian-observer-style-guide-k ; archived-source @The Guardian styleguide: http://archive.is/r5OpE
- The Calvert Journal 2 April, 2019 Official quote from The Calvert Journal: "We have decided the time is right to change to Kyiv" (source: https://www.calvertjournal.com/articles/show/11100/kiev-kyiv-what-to-call-ukrainian-capital , archived-source: http://archive.is/hq4xW
- BGN (regulates what spelling is used for geographic names in maps) June 17, 2019. Official quote from BGN: "At its 398th meeting on June 11, 2019, the Foreign Names Committee of the United States Board on Geographic Names (BGN) voted unanimously to retire the spelling “Kiev” as a BGN Conventional name for the capital of Ukraine. The spelling “Kyiv” has been the BGN Approved name since 2006, and is now the only name available for standard use within the United States (U.S.) Government, per the authority of the BGN (source on BGN: http://geonames.nga.mil/gns/html/PDFDocs/BGNStatement_Kyiv.pdf, archived-source: http://archive.is/pLZlO
- Associated Press: 14 August, 2019. Official quote from AP: "We are making a significant change in our style for the Ukrainian capital city Kiev. It will henceforth be written in text, captions and datelines as Kyiv." (source on AP: https://blog.ap.org/announcements/an-update-on-ap-style-on-kyiv , archived-source: http://archive.is/ONA0S
- The Library of Congress: 12 September, 2019. Official quote from LOC: "In accordance with LC-PCC PS for 16.2.2.5, we have applied the ALA/LC Romanization Table for Ukrainian in the new authorized access point rather than using a form that reflects another romanization scheme. This form is “Kyïv (Ukraine)." (source on lOC (announcement): https://listserv.loc.gov/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1909&L=PCCLIST&P=20135, archived-source: http://archive.is/XlarP ; source on LOC (entry): http://id.loc.gov/authorities/names/n81022031.html , archived-source: http://archive.is/BzK0T
- NPR: September 23, 2019. Official quote from NPR: "Guidance: The Capital Of Ukraine Is Spelled 'Kyiv'" (source on NPR: https://www.npr.org/sections/memmos/2019/09/23/763509886/guidance-the-capital-of-ukraine-is-spelled-kyiv, archived-source: http://archive.is/Lx7Ch
- The Wall Street Journal: October 3, 2019. Official quote from WSJ: "After careful consideration, we have joined Associated Press and Webster’s New World College Dictionary (5th) in using the spelling Kyiv for the capital of Ukraine" (source on WSJ: https://blogs.wsj.com/styleandsubstance/2019/10/03/vol-32-no-9-kyiv/, archived-source: http://archive.is/wip/yk3Eh
- The Globe and Mail: October 10, 2019. Official quote from The Globe and Mail: "The Globe is changing its style on the capital of Ukraine from the Russian-derived "Kiev" to "Kyiv," the transliteration the Ukrainian government uses" (source The Globe and Mail's correspondent Adrian Morrow: https://twitter.com/adrianmorrow/status/1182340357255831552, archived-source: http://archive.is/cLGGZ
- BBC: October 14, 2019. Official quote from BBC: "From today, BBC News will be changing its spelling of the Ukrainian capital from #Kiev to #Kyiv, bringing us in line with the many international organizations, government agencies, international aviation industry members and media who’ve adopted this spelling." (source on BBC News Press Team @Twitter: https://twitter.com/bbcnewspr/status/1183707458642108416, archive-source: http://archive.is/PGhmq; source on BBC News Ukrainian: https://www.bbc.com/ukrainian/news-49999939 , archived-source: http://archive.is/ap1vS ; source on BBC Style Guide: https://www.bbc.co.uk/academy/en/articles/art20130702112133577, archived-source: http://archive.vn/SD07M
- The Washington Post: October 2019. Official quote from TWP: "The Washington Post changes its style guide for the capital of Ukraine, which henceforth will be Kyiv, and not Kiev. This change is effective immediately. These changes are in accordance with the way Ukrainian capital is spelled by Ukrainian institutions, as well by by other media organizations." (source from WP's correspondent Adam Taylor's Twitter: https://twitter.com/mradamtaylor/status/1184470206925676544 , archived-source from WP's correspondent Adam Taylor's Twitter: http://archive.is/yFzVy; source on Voice of America: https://ukrainian.voanews.com/a/kyiv-not-kiev/5126392.html, source-archived: http://archive.is/nL48F ; source on The Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/starting-in-the-1970s-womens-first-names-were-included-in-post-references/2019/11/23/73dc1eb2-0d59-11ea-bd9d-c628fd48b3a0_story.html , archived-source: http://archive.is/ZrUos )
- The Economist, October, 29 2019. Official quote from The Economist: "Kyiv spelling is now used at The Economist for Ukraine's capital" (source news about this on Ukrinform: https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-society/2808601-the-economist-starts-using-kyiv-instead-of-kiev.html , archived-source: http://archive.is/ka7Lv
- Financial Times, October, 29 2019. Official quote from Financial Times: "Kyiv spelling is now used at Financial Times for Ukraine's capital" (source news about this on Ukrinform: https://www.ukrinform.ua/rubric-kyiv/2808219-financial-times-vidteper-pisatime-kyiv-zamist-kiev.html , archived-source: http://archive.is/wip/kh5YL
- IATA (regulates what spelling is used for geographic names in airports): October, 2019. (source: list of all cities worldwide at iata.org: https://www.iata.org/contentassets/5989fc2df9824de3826cccfd279f9409/slot-alleviation-status-ns20-covid19.pdf )
- The New York Times: November 18, 2019. Official quote from NYT: "Note: Days after this article was published, The New York Times changed its style of spelling for the capital of Ukraine to Kyiv, reflecting the transliteration from Ukrainian, rather than Russian. The change is reflected in articles published after Nov. 18. " (source from NYT's correspondent Andrew E. Kramer's Twitter: https://twitter.com/AndrewKramerNYT/status/1196496095184084997, archived-source from NYT's correspondent Andrew E. Kramer's Twitter: http://archive.is/wip/3Xqgm; source: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/13/us/politics/kiev-pronunciation.html , archived-source: http://archive.is/KjrWw
- BuzzFeed: December 31, 2019. Official quote from BuzzFeed: "We updated our style to “Kyiv” to refer to Ukraine’s capital city. The “Kiev” spelling is transliterated from the Russian language, while "Kyiv" is from Ukrainian." (source on BuzzFeed Styleguide @Twitter: https://twitter.com/styleguide/status/1212079459282685954 , archived-source: http://archive.is/wip/0I4rB ; BuzzFeed Styleguide: https://www.buzzfeed.com/emmyf/buzzfeed-style-guide ; archived-source BuzzFeed Styleguide: http://archive.is/G2Y13
- Reuters, June 12, 2020. Official quote from Reuters: "From June 15 the capital of Ukraine will be written as Kyiv at @Reuters". (source Reuters' journalist Tommy Lund @Twitter: https://twitter.com/tommylundn/status/1271344841243471872, archived-source: http://archive.is/UqgwX; source @Reuters styleguide: http://handbook.reuters.com/index.php?title=K#Kyiv.2C_not_Kiev ; archived-source @Reuters styleguide: http://archive.is/QZyqw
- Facebook, June 26, 2020. Official quote from Facebook: "After reviewing, we switched to using the page “Kyiv” to represent this region". (source: Minister of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine (MFA of Ukraine) Dmytro Kuleba and MFA of Ukraine page CorrectUA, archived-source: http://archive.is/XKXoz
--73.75.115.5 (talk) 04:22, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose This was completely predictable, both in terms of its timing, but also in terms of its failure to address common usage. It lists a variety of style guides, but utterly fails to indicate whether or not those style guides have had any influence on actual usage, which is the measurement that Wikipedia uses to gauge "common usage". You have to prove that usage has changed. You don't prove usage by simply listing all the people who say "you should do this". You have to actually show that English speakers are paying attention to the "experts" and changing their usage. You've proven nothing other than the "experts" are talking about changing. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 06:15, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- Let's test this new awareness of "Kyiv" out with the simplest of metrics, a Google search.
- Kiev -Kyiv -chicken (in the last month): 6.9 million
- Kyiv -Kiev -Dynamo (in the last month): 264 thousand
- It doesn't seem that actual usage has changed much. Reuters changed officially changed spelling on the 12th, but here are 4560 results of "Kiev -Kyiv -chicken Reuters" just in the last week.
- You have to prove your point with actual usage not dictates from "on high". --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 06:32, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- So let's now fine-tune the example from Reuters to just News using the same search criteria for the last week:
- "Kiev -Kyiv -chicken Reuters" (last week, News): 894 results
- "Kyiv -Kiev -Dynamo Reuters" (last week, News): 564 results
- It seems that actual usage at Reuters is still about 1.5 to 1 in favor of "Kiev" in the News department.
- At the AP the situation isn't much different.
- "Kiev -Kyiv -chicken AP" (last week, News): 1380 results
- "Kyiv -Kiev -Dynamo AP" (last week, News): 752 results
- The same is true if I search for all News over the last week.
- "Kiev -Kyiv -chicken" (last week, News): 24,700 results
- Kyiv -Kiev -chicken" (last week, News): 14,100 results
- So nothing has changed in terms of actual usage in the last six months. In the news departments of the English-speaking world usage of "Kiev" over "Kyiv" is still about 2 to 1 even though the style guides are telling them to use "Kyiv". --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 06:44, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- So let's now fine-tune the example from Reuters to just News using the same search criteria for the last week:
- Let's test this new awareness of "Kyiv" out with the simplest of metrics, a Google search.
- 1) RE Reuters News results
- Google search results are incredibly sensitive to 1) the time of the day you do the search, 2) Language preferences in Google, 3) IP location from which you search. Also you you used only
-chicken
and forgot to add-Dynamo
) Using US as location, and Ukrainian as the language and adding both-chicken
and-Dynamo
I just got quite a different result for Reuters (with Kyiv beating out Kiev by about 50%):--73.75.115.5 (talk) 15:57, 1 July 2020 (UTC)- "Kiev -Kyiv -chicken -Dynamo Reuters" (last week, News): 509 results
- "Kyiv -Kiev -chicken -Dynamo Reuters" (last week, News): 706 results
- 2) RE AP News results
- Google search results are incredibly sensitive to 1) the time of the day you do the search, 2) Language preferences in Google, 3) IP location from which you search. Also you you used different exclusion flags for you 'Kiev' search and 'Kyiv' search (only
-chicken
in one case and only-Dynamo
in the other). Using US as location, and Ukrainian as the language and adding both-chicken
and-Dynamo
I just got quite a different result for AP (with roughly 1-to-1 ratio, but Kiev beating out Kyiv slightly by about 30%):--73.75.115.5 (talk) 15:57, 1 July 2020 (UTC)- "Kiev -Kyiv -chicken -Dynamo Reuters" (last week, News): 984 results
- "Kyiv -Kiev -chicken -Dynamo Reuters" (last week, News): 685 results
- 3) RE All News results
- Google search results are incredibly sensitive to 1) the time of the day you do the search, 2) Language preferences in Google, 3) IP location from which you search. Also you you used different exclusion flags for you 'Kiev' search and 'Kyiv' search (only
-chicken
in one case and only-Dynamo
in the other). Using US as location, and Ukrainian as the language and adding both-chicken
and-Dynamo
I just got quite a different result for all news (with roughly 1-to-1 ratio, but Kyiv beating out Kiev slightly by about 10%):--73.75.115.5 (talk) 15:57, 1 July 2020 (UTC)- "Kiev -Kyiv -chicken -Dynamo" (last week, News): 13,800 results
- "Kyiv -Kiev -chicken -Dynamo" (last week, News): 15,200 results
- Google search results are incredibly sensitive to 1) the time of the day you do the search, 2) Language preferences in Google, 3) IP location from which you search. Also you you used different exclusion flags for you 'Kiev' search and 'Kyiv' search (only
- Those numbers are completely fake. The real search result totals are only on the last page of search. (How can Taivo not know this after discussing this here for literally years?) See WP:GOOGLE. The number of results returned when I click on his links above are 190:184, 24:31, 12:12, 229:197 (Google will probably give you slightly different numbers). These searches are also full of foreign-language results, and should be restricted to English-language results. The supposed Reuters and AP searches are full of “photos from Reuters,” and don’t indicate what they’re supposed to indicate. —Michael Z. 2020-07-01 15:55 z
- I agree with @Mzajac: that results from TaivoLinguist are fake, made up and manipulative (using one exclusion
-chicken
in one case and a different one-Dynamo
in the other). As I clearly showed above in all examples, except for AP, Kyiv wins over Kiev by 10% to 50%.--73.75.115.5 (talk) 16:06, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- I agree with @Mzajac: that results from TaivoLinguist are fake, made up and manipulative (using one exclusion
- And those results are a red herring. Article titles are to be based on reliable English-language sources (WP:TITLE), and independent, reliable English-language sources (WP:COMMONNAME). Raw Google search results might be helpful, but result counts do not tell us this. WP:WIAN: “Raw counts from Google must be considered with extreme caution, if at all.” —Michael Z. 2020-07-01 18:12 z
- Those numbers are completely fake. The real search result totals are only on the last page of search. (How can Taivo not know this after discussing this here for literally years?) See WP:GOOGLE. The number of results returned when I click on his links above are 190:184, 24:31, 12:12, 229:197 (Google will probably give you slightly different numbers). These searches are also full of foreign-language results, and should be restricted to English-language results. The supposed Reuters and AP searches are full of “photos from Reuters,” and don’t indicate what they’re supposed to indicate. —Michael Z. 2020-07-01 15:55 z
Arbitrary heading
- Oppose - so far nothing to change my mind from common usage. And as said above, even though some sources have officially changed to Kyiv, they still keep on using Kiev. That's not too official. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:11, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- Support per exhaustively-detailed nomination. On July 1, 2020, the time has finally arrived for Wikipedia to drop the outdated form "Kiev" and start using the 21st-century form "Kyiv". In the same manner that all the style guides and major publications in the English-speaking world depict Beijing rather than Peking, Mumbai rather than Bombay or Kolkata rather than Calcutta, so do these same guides and publications use Kyiv rather than Kiev. All of the WP:RELIABLE SOURCES are now on the side of change. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 07:44, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- Support The renaming suggestion is well sourced, highly detailed and convincing. It is also time that we as Wikipedians acknowledged that while our standards are meant to reflect common use, they also influence common use. I therefore find it far more important to rely on the types of sources used in the request to move than the google searches used in the opposition to it. Arianna the First (talk) 08:49, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose - Still no evidence presented that "Kyiv" is in common usage in English language publications worldwide. Wikipedia's naming conventions do not allow for renaming to "Right Great Wrongs", but in view of the social changes now sweeping the US and other countries, perhaps it soon will. But until that actually happens, we still abide by Common Name rules. - BilCat (talk) 08:51, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose move - no evidence it's the common name. O.N.R. (talk) 09:10, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- Support – per detailed request and Roman Spinner's note on native names' usage. SMiki55 (talk)
- Oppose per the detailed evidentiary rebuttal of the nomination. ——Serial # 10:59, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose - per evidence that actual usage hasn't changed. --Khajidha (talk) 11:10, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- Support – must be done Thug Rx (talk) 11:17, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- Support – Almost every reliable source and English language style guide uses Kyiv at this point especially in publications from the last year. Notable AP and NYT updated thier style guides. Further i urge everyone to read WP:WIAN before taking raw counts from google as authoritatively indicating common usage particularly in light of other reliable source. Blindlynx (talk) 13:04, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- "Reliable sources" of English usage (the News in this case) use "Kiev" two to one over "Kyiv". The style guides suggest usage, but the actual news writers ignore them twice as often as they follow them. And you clearly didn't read the second major bullet of WP:WIAN where it says that news media are an important source of information. My search criteria were careful and properly constructed to show just News media, just within the most recent time frame, and using the proper search terms. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 13:15, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose. The most common English name/spelling is still Kiev. Rreagan007 (talk) 13:23, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- Support per detailed nomination. Would be odd to use different spelling from all of our reliable sources (and insonsistent with most similar articles, e.g. Lviv, Kharkiv, Dnipro, Zaporizhia, Kryvyi Rih, Mykolaiv, Luhansk et cetera). 3fingeredPete (talk) 13:57, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- Support The common name in reliable sources, particularly high-quality ones, is clearly Kyiv. In light of the Ukrainian government's 2018 request to use Kyiv, I would also urged participants (and the closer) to take into account WP:NAMECHANGES. Calidum 14:54, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- Support a change to Kyiv per WP:MODERNPLACENAME and WP:NPOVTITLE. There's been a sea change in how to approach this since the last requested move in 2019. I haven't seen anyone mention NPOV, but I think neutrality plays a very important role here. First off, the official language of Ukraine is Ukrainian. It was 25 years ago now that the Ukrainian government adopted Kyiv as its standard Latinization. The name Kyiv means "belonging to Kyi", who, according to legend, was founder of the city. Ukraine's oldest English newspaper is named the Kyiv Post. The city's name is Київ in Ukrainian and Киев in Russian. Favoring the Russian transliteration of a Ukrainian place name reinforces the Russian pronunciation of the name and perpetuates a Russian colonialist mindset that denies Ukrainian autonomy. "For many Ukrainians today it is now associated with so-called “Russification” - banning the use of Ukrainian language in print and other actions by Russian Empire and then Soviet State to strengthen Russian linguistic and political positions in Ukraine." I would remind those invoking COMMONNAME that it also says
When there are multiple names for a subject, all of which are fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others.
The U.S. Board on Geographic Names approved the spelling Kyiv in 2006 and in 2019 actually delisted "Kiev" as a conventional name. The sources listed by the nominator demonstrate that Kyiv has become the overwhelmingly preferred transliteration of reputable sources. gobonobo + c 17:10, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose. It is worth mentioning that several of the supporters, including the OP, either have very few edits total, or at least very few recent edits. Given the history here, this is at best suspicious. We should consider that this discussion may well be being canvassed inappropriately.
- I find a few of the comments here thoroughly unconvincing.
- The fact that the Ukrainian government made a request is irrelevant to us. Usage by organisations from non-English-speaking countries like the Kyiv Post is irrelevant to us. And, while WP:NAMECHANGES certainly applies, note that (a) the official change was quite a long time ago now and (b) TaivoLinguist's evidence comes from the last couple of weeks.
- I see no issue with being "inconsistent" with the names of articles like Kryvyi Rih, since most English speakers will have never heard of the place. And I note with interest that Zaporizhia is used as an example, given that the transcription according to the official standard is Zaporizhzhia. We'll be "inconsistent" with Zaporizhia whatever we do.
- Arguments based on situations in China and India that aren't parallels to this one are as specious as they always have been.
- I note that the IP objects to removing "chicken" and "Dynamo" from search results. In reality, sources that use "Kiev" generally also refer to "Dynamo Kyiv", and sources that use "Kyiv" will often still use "chicken Kiev". It is more useful to include only results that refer to the city, not to things named after the city.
- The claim that Kiev is POV would imply that Kyiv is equally POV. If one is more POV than the other, then Kyiv has the greater POV because it's the neologism. After all, while Kiev may have begun life as a Russian transcription, it became the standard English-language name for the city in neutral sources. The question that we are asking is whether there is clear evidence that that has changed.
- In particular, the claim,
Favoring the Russian transliteration of a Ukrainian place name reinforces the Russian pronunciation of the name and perpetuates a Russian colonialist mindset that denies Ukrainian autonomy
is not an argument for NPOV. Because it treats "Kiev" as "the Russian transliteration of a Ukrainian place name", rather than an English word, and is based solely on Ukrainians' reactions to that word. It is implicitly an argument that we should be writing to appease Ukrainian people, i.e. from a Ukrainian POV. - The argument for WP:MODERNPLACENAME in the same comment is irrelevant since it's far from obvious that WP:MODERNPLACENAME doesn't imply Kiev.
- In particular, the claim,
- So, having dismissed most of the arguments raised for the change, I turn to the IP's argument and Taivo's counterargument, which really is the crux of the matter. There is no point in claiming that usage isn't changing, at least in writing. My impression is that if current trends continue, the most common name is likely to change soon, and we may well want to move this article within the next year or two.
- But what decided it for me was a quote from another comment above:
When there are multiple names for a subject, all of which are fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others
- particularly given that it was coupled with WP:NPOV. Even if I accept that Kyiv is the most common (and that is not clear to me), it has problems. It seems to have no standard pronunciation that meets the phonological requirements of the English language. And a lot of the arguments in favour seem to boil down to supporting the Ukrainian POV.
- Support Per nom. I am amazed how people push the usage thing. Wikipedia lately has turned into "this is how lemmings call things" instead of "this is how things are called". This is lame and irritating. I presume if people still called Instanbul Byzantium, then the article in Wikipedia would be called Byzantium? This is nonsense. Mikus (talk) 18:58, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose. The presented evidence seems like a big red herring that does not actually prove that current common usage has changed from "Kiev" to "Kyiv". Indeed, while this may constitute evidence that such a change may happen in the future, it does not mean it has already happened. A simple comparison of both terms in Google Trends show "Kiev" overwhelmingly preferred over "Kyiv" in search results (even in Ukraine, with Kiev comprising 71% of the cummulative searches for both terms). In English speaking countries (the ones we must pay attention to as per WP:COMMONNAME & WP:NCGN), Kiev is still most common with no less than ~85% of results. Some other cities have been brought as examples for the change, but those do constitute examples on why such move cannot happen just yet: Mumbai/Bombay, Beijing/Peking and Kolkata/Calcutta, all show a change in common usage from the previous Bombay/Peking/Calcutta to the new Mumbai/Beijing/Kolkata. This has not happened for Kiev/Kyiv. As per WP:MPN:
Per Wikipedia's naming policy, our choice of name does not automatically follow the official or local form, but depends on that change having become predominant in common global usage.
The current common global usage is still Kiev, so that's the name we should prefer for the article.
- On a side note, Kahastok makes a convincing case for preserving the current title and I share his concerns about a possible canvassing taking place in this discussion. This seems a clear political issue in Ukraine, and many of the support !votes look like POVish pile-ons centered on how Wikipedia must seemingly right a great wrong with the city's name, as the Ukrainian government seems to be actively pressing for the "old" Kiev spelling to fall out of use. I must note that Wikipedia, as an independent online encyclopedia, cannot take any side on this issue nor serve as a soapbox to promote any particular political cause. We must limit ourselves to reflect what sources and common usage dictate, and on this issue it's clear Kiev is still the most commonly-used term for the city. Impru20talk 19:49, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- Wikipedia's preference of common name instead of official name is idiotic. This is not just about Kiev/Kyiv, but, say cassette tape instead of compact cassette. Wikipedia became the bastion of illiterate and uninformed. Mikus (talk) 20:24, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- Go and get a consensus for changing the current Wikipedia's policy on WP:COMMONNAME if you don't like it, but saying that it's "idiotic" only because of not agreeing with it won't grant you the upper hand in any discussion. Impru20talk 20:34, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- And also, who the heck calls it a compact cassette? That may be the technical term but it's been called a cassette tape by everyone since I was using them in the 1970s when it surpassed my old 8-track tape player. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:03, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- I do recognize that this topic is prime real estate for Ukrainian trolls, canvassed for this purpose. It would not surprise me at all if the sons of the motherland are responding to either an official call or an influential voice in the in-language media to troll Wikipedia. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 20:56, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- Hi, User:TaivoLinguist. Can you tell us which Wikipedians you’re labelling “Ukrainian trolls,” or are all Ukrainians “trolls,” or is it just that everyone who disagrees with you on this issue must be a member of some trollish nation driven by their genes or citizenship? Your remark is deeply offensive and it’s already encouraging others to take up the call. Please reconsider your remark. —Michael Z. 2020-07-01 21:59 z
"and it’s already encouraging others to take up the call."
Really? And how are these "others" finding out about these comments? Sounds like you just proved he's right! - BilCat (talk) 22:05, 1 July 2020 (UTC)- Hi, User:BilCat. Are you implying that Taivo has been canvassing non-Wikipedians to come here and chime in to agree with his comment? Are you defending the comment? What exactly are you implying? —Michael Z. 2020-07-01 22:58 z
- Yeah, I think they are and will be coming out of the woodwork.. as if the entire country of Ukraine has marked this day on the calendars. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:04, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- Like the IP who started this--nothing whatsover on Wikipedia until he admits to gathering his evidence "in preparation" for the big day. He came here for one purpose and one purpose only. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 21:07, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, well, as far as I see the IP nominator had this post prepared since at least 29 June, and the initial filling of this RM was almost automatic once it was 1 July, with a "TBA" comment in anticipation of the copy-paste. It would seem as if the RM came just because of the lifting of the moratorium, rather than because of an actual change in common usage having happened or being demonstrable. Impru20talk 21:13, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- Like the IP who started this--nothing whatsover on Wikipedia until he admits to gathering his evidence "in preparation" for the big day. He came here for one purpose and one purpose only. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 21:07, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- I do recognize that this topic is prime real estate for Ukrainian trolls, canvassed for this purpose. It would not surprise me at all if the sons of the motherland are responding to either an official call or an influential voice in the in-language media to troll Wikipedia. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 20:56, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- Wikipedia's preference of common name instead of official name is idiotic. This is not just about Kiev/Kyiv, but, say cassette tape instead of compact cassette. Wikipedia became the bastion of illiterate and uninformed. Mikus (talk) 20:24, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- so much for assume good faith... blindlynx (talk) 22:26, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- WP:AGF means that good faith should be assumed, but obviously evidence may point to the contrary. As of currently, all evidence points to this RM having been filled because of the moratorium having expired, not because of any sensible new reason about any change in the common usage of Kiev/Kyiv that may bring a different result to previous discussions (specially when even Wikipedia's policy on WP:COMMONNAME is being dubbed as "idiotic" because it does not bend particularly well to the the cause of having this moved to "Kyiv").
- Note that the previous RM (which resulted in a strong consensus against any move) took place between 26 October and 3 November 2019. If you check the dates of the links provided to support this proposal, you'd see that almost all of them are previous to the last RM, and none of them revolve around the actual common usage of the proposed term, which is the issue that, ultimately, is preventing all these RMs from succeeding once and once and once and once again. I believe it's nigh to disruptive and an abuse of process to open a RM on a very conflicting issue just because you can, on the exact moment the moratorium is lifted, rather than because of there being any new sensible reason that can sway the community's consensus in a different direction. Attempting to bore the hell out of all opposers until there is no one left to oppose what seems a very clear attempt to right what is perceived as an historical wrong is not how Wikipedia works. Impru20talk 22:46, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- a good number of reliable sources have changed since the moratorium was put in place. it's reached the point where almost every style guide and place names registry uses Kyiv. Just because people waited for the moratorium to expire to propose the change does not invalidate good faith. blindlynx (talk) 01:04, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- Of the provided sources (which btw, do not prove a change in common usage) only four are from after the previous RM, and just two are from 2020. Nonetheless, stop the charade: this RM has been set up in Twitter to canvass people into having this article moved. That pretty much invalidates the whole RM, since it's been a conscious attempt to game and disrupt Wikipedia by creating the illusion of a strong consensus for the move, when never has been one. Impru20talk 01:51, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- a good number of reliable sources have changed since the moratorium was put in place. it's reached the point where almost every style guide and place names registry uses Kyiv. Just because people waited for the moratorium to expire to propose the change does not invalidate good faith. blindlynx (talk) 01:04, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- Support per nom. People here often forget how much Wikipedia shapes common usage nowadays, not just reflects it. Ausir (talk) 23:42, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- That has absolutely nothing to do with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines on article naming. - BilCat (talk) 23:49, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Sorry, but no. What you say goes against the second of Wikipedia's five pillars, under which we must explicitly avoid advocacy. Independently of how Wikipedia may be regarded by outside readers, it is not among Wikipedia's goals to "shape common usage"; we only reflect on it. Supporting this move in order to have Wikipedia help influence and raise the visibility of a particular agenda is outrightly contrary to its spirit, and it's worrying that several of the support !votes have been explicit on this motive. Impru20talk 23:52, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- I've never heard this before from an administrator... basing a move on Wikipedia because Wikipedia "shapes common usage nowadays, not just reflects it." That goes against all we stand for in policy and guidelines. I'm actually shocked at this. Fyunck(click) (talk) 00:04, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- I'm not saying it's a goal to shape common usage. Just that it does anyway. I'm not saying the article should be moved in order to shape usage but that the current online usage of the current article name is shaped partly by Wikipedia itself and pretending it doesn't doesn't change it. Ausir (talk) 00:32, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- That's not true. The page for Turin (which should probably merit a RM someday) is titled like that in Wikipedia as of now, yet current Google Trends show that "Torino" (the official local name) has already vastly surpassed the usage of "Turin". This is not the case for Kiev. So the issue of whether Wikipedia shapes common usage is not only unfortunate under WP's goals, but also of negligible effect, if any (factually, you'll get to this Wikipedia article by typing either Kiev or Kyiv, because of the second being a redirect and being used in-text throughout the article). Impru20talk 00:49, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- I'm not saying it's a goal to shape common usage. Just that it does anyway. I'm not saying the article should be moved in order to shape usage but that the current online usage of the current article name is shaped partly by Wikipedia itself and pretending it doesn't doesn't change it. Ausir (talk) 00:32, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- I've never heard this before from an administrator... basing a move on Wikipedia because Wikipedia "shapes common usage nowadays, not just reflects it." That goes against all we stand for in policy and guidelines. I'm actually shocked at this. Fyunck(click) (talk) 00:04, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- Support - per WP:MPN, and WP:NPOV. Tāwhiwhi (talk) 23:55, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- Note- new account only edit. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:59, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- Support – Long overdue. Common usage is Kyiv in reliable sources. Sure, Wikipedia should not lead a name change but it should also not actively stand in the way. Some consideration, however little, should be given to the official name. Whether we like to admit it or not Wikipedia has a large influence. We are like a boulder blocking the stream and complaining about the amount of water flowing. Let's get the fuck out of the way. The most trusted sources have accepted the name change and so should we. Some say that this is advocacy that is not permitted on Wikipedia. Advocating keeping an old name, despite evidence showing a change is needed, is also against Wikipedia policies and guidelines. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 03:53, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- @Coffeeandcrumbs: agree with your points that switching to Kyiv on English WP is long over due, since practically all reliable sources have already switched over the course of 2019-2020. Also, I'm utterly surprised that nobody has mentioned thus far that
even the MOST stubborn English encyclopedia in the world - Encyclopedia Britannica switched to Kyiv on November 25, 2019
: https://www.britannica.com/place/Kyiv. Let me repeat it, so everyone could hear: even the slowest and most conservative encyclopedia in the world, Britannica, switched to Kyiv spelling a little over half a year ago. If today English Wikipedia doesn't follow in Britannica's footsteps, it would mean there's a series issue with the part of WP community that keeps advocating (against overwhelming evidence) to keep it 'Kiev' by all and every means possible.--73.75.115.5 (talk) 04:19, 2 July 2020 (UTC)- This comment coming from the OP of a RM who has been demonstrated has being set up on Twitter to massively influence a move of this article is almost offensive. At the very least, attempt not to depict Wikipedia as some short of advocate group when it is you who are advocating an agenda. Impru20talk 10:21, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- @Coffeeandcrumbs: agree with your points that switching to Kyiv on English WP is long over due, since practically all reliable sources have already switched over the course of 2019-2020. Also, I'm utterly surprised that nobody has mentioned thus far that
- Comment I added this discussion to WP:CENT. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 06:59, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- Support per Roman Spinner and Coffeeandcrumbs, whose boulder metaphor resonates well. If Russia still incorporated Ukraine within its borders, this would be a much tougher question. But the Russians have been gone already for 3 decades, and the indigenous people are telling us what the correct spelling of their city's name is, which is based upon its founder Kyi. The canvassing going on is troubling, but it wouldn't be happening if WP just got with the program already like almost everyone else has. StonyBrook (talk) 07:43, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose Just because Kiev is located in Ukraine doesn't mean that we need to use the Ukrainian spelling in English. Dublin is not referred to as Baile Atha Cliath. 2A02:A311:433F:5A80:E10D:F069:4FB0:281E (talk) 07:56, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- Not a fair comparison. It is just a spelling tweak, not an alternate name as in the case of Dublin. And Kiev was the Russian spelling in English, so why is that superior? StonyBrook (talk) 08:05, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- Kiev is easier to spell and pronounce in English. Names of major cities are typically translated, not just transliterated. Moscow, Jerusalem and Cairo are the preferred spellings in English, not Moskva, Yerushalayim/al-Quds and al-Qahira. Also, Kiev is fairly evenly divided as far as the usage of the Russian and Ukrainian languages is concerned. 2A02:A311:433F:5A80:E10D:F069:4FB0:281E (talk) 08:40, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- I agree that it is ever so slightly easier to pronounce Kiev. I don't know about the breakdown of usage, but I haven't heard of any significant movement in Russia, Israel or Egypt to get those iconic capitol names changed to the transliterations, but I sure am seeing it here. StonyBrook (talk) 08:53, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- The question is whether the existence of movements seeking to change a name is enough for the Wikipedia name to change. In my opinion it remains the best option just to use whatever name is the most common in English, which still is Kiev. 2A02:A311:433F:5A80:E10D:F069:4FB0:281E (talk) 09:10, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- The most common usage, in English-language reliable sources in 2020, is Kyiv.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7] --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 09:22, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- That is simply not true. These sources you post do not reflect a change in common usage, only that some media outlets are making the change from Kiev to Kyiv. This could very well mean that common usage will follow suit in the future, but it hasn't as of currently, which is the issue at discussion right now. Impru20talk 09:45, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- The most common usage in English is Kiev... it is the English spelling of the city. And it's not a question of the pronunciation. No matter how it gets spelled in English, Kiev or Kyiv, the pronunciation will be the same.... key-ev. No one will really pronounce it different just because it's spelled different. Like in the USA, few would pronounce Quebek as Kuh-bek... most will say qwa-bek. It will be said Key-ev for 100 years. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:49, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- "Kiev" isn't a Russian word any more than "Moscow" is. It's the English name of the city and until that simple fact changes, then this question is simply moot. The evidence is unequivocal despite nationalists' best efforts to cherry pick style guides as if they were actual usage data. Requests by the Ukrainian government are important to the State Department and the Foreign Ministry, as well as to any organization that needs institutional permissions and individual visas to work in Ukraine, but irrelevant to Wikipedia. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 09:54, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- The most common usage in English is Kiev... it is the English spelling of the city. And it's not a question of the pronunciation. No matter how it gets spelled in English, Kiev or Kyiv, the pronunciation will be the same.... key-ev. No one will really pronounce it different just because it's spelled different. Like in the USA, few would pronounce Quebek as Kuh-bek... most will say qwa-bek. It will be said Key-ev for 100 years. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:49, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- That is simply not true. These sources you post do not reflect a change in common usage, only that some media outlets are making the change from Kiev to Kyiv. This could very well mean that common usage will follow suit in the future, but it hasn't as of currently, which is the issue at discussion right now. Impru20talk 09:45, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- The most common usage, in English-language reliable sources in 2020, is Kyiv.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7] --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 09:22, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- The question is whether the existence of movements seeking to change a name is enough for the Wikipedia name to change. In my opinion it remains the best option just to use whatever name is the most common in English, which still is Kiev. 2A02:A311:433F:5A80:E10D:F069:4FB0:281E (talk) 09:10, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- I agree that it is ever so slightly easier to pronounce Kiev. I don't know about the breakdown of usage, but I haven't heard of any significant movement in Russia, Israel or Egypt to get those iconic capitol names changed to the transliterations, but I sure am seeing it here. StonyBrook (talk) 08:53, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- Kiev is easier to spell and pronounce in English. Names of major cities are typically translated, not just transliterated. Moscow, Jerusalem and Cairo are the preferred spellings in English, not Moskva, Yerushalayim/al-Quds and al-Qahira. Also, Kiev is fairly evenly divided as far as the usage of the Russian and Ukrainian languages is concerned. 2A02:A311:433F:5A80:E10D:F069:4FB0:281E (talk) 08:40, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- Not a fair comparison. It is just a spelling tweak, not an alternate name as in the case of Dublin. And Kiev was the Russian spelling in English, so why is that superior? StonyBrook (talk) 08:05, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- Comment. Aside of the explicit canvassing issues below, I've seen that the Ukrainian government launched a renewed campaign through Twitter on 29 June ([8]), actively pressing organisations (the CNN in this case) into changing the city name's transliteration. The tweet has over 2k likes. This, coupled with the lifting of the moratorium on 1 July and this RM having been planned (and a canvassing organized) through the social networks since several days prior, only adds to the already growing concerns that a particular agenda is being pursued here.
- I should once again remind the people involved about WP:ADVOCACY:
Despite the popularity of Wikipedia, it is not a soapbox to use for editors' activism, recruitment, promotion, advertising, announcements, or other forms of advocacy.
While it'd perfectly logical for the article to be moved to Kyiv once and if common usage shows that such change has happened, Wikipedia cannot be used as a channel to promote or help further such change in common usage, as some editors have explicitly voiced. The move should happen when and if such change happens naturally, but we cannot artificially enforce it ourselves. Impru20talk 10:46, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose - I can't believe this perennial is back again. Per WP:COMMONNAME, Kiev. Beyond My Ken (talk) 10:52, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose The city is already known as Kiev in the western world and is presented as Kiev literally everywhere. Gerg2013 (talk) 11:42, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- Support - This seems to come down to whether we emphasize the
major international organizations, major English-language media outlets
part of WP:COMMONNAME or theA search engine may help
part. Many of the opposing arguments above seem to take the form of "it doesn't matter if so many organizations formally use Kyiv if they still commonly write Kiev". I err on the side of the former. It's the editorial board of these organizations that I think we should be looking to, not specific instances where employees are lagging behind. That the CBC, BBC, NYT, WaPo, AP, Guardian, Economist, Globe, Reuters, yada yada all say they use Kyiv is important. That one can find google hits to the contrary is secondary. As has been pointed out, Google hits are complicated to qualify given the number of low quality sources, duplicates, and unrelated topics they'll include. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 17:14, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
Off-wiki canvassing confirmed
I just found out this from earlier on 1 July: The wiki debate on calling Kyiv Kyiv is back on today, anyone wanna help?
[9]. This is really disturbing. This Twitter user is currently active in this discussion and has called for other people to intervene and support the Kyiv claim, laying out the ground for this RM to happen since at least 27 June:
Fucking wiki, this is going to be reopened in a few days btw
[10]If you have wiki accounts please please please join in
[11]July 1st
[12]
There are several more comments from today, discussing this with other accounts (which are private so I can't see what they say, but they are clearly commenting about us and not in a very nice way): It took me half an hour to be sick of wiki
[13], The most vocal editors are always such disengenuous dick heads
[14], Tavio is particularly bad :/
[15].
This user has been also interacting with another (declaring himself as pro-Ukrainian) who is currently commenting on the various responses in this discussion ([16], [17], [18], [19]). On the Kiev/Kyiv issue, this account has also claimed that it's impossible to be politically neutral on this subject. either you think institutions like encyclopediae - online or offline - endorse the right of a people to self-determine or you do not.
[20]. This person claimed not to have a wiki account, yet he was told, literally, that You should probably make one anyways
[21].
This explains why all of these sudden new accounts/sleepers re-activation. Do you think this is funny? This whole POVish-motivated RM is an insult to intelligence and a gross violation of WP:CANVASSING, a fake attempt at attempting to show an illusion of consensus by gathering similarly-minded editors throughout the social networks. The OP should withdraw this RM or else this should probably be brought to WP:ANI so that appropiate actions are taken. This is purely disruptive. Impru20talk 01:37, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- Good work, and the results are not surprising either. I have no respect for those who snipe at us and call us names behind our backs, and then fake outrage here and cry about AGF. This is Gaming the System at its worst. - BilCat (talk) 02:09, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- Very sad, but not unexpected given its past. Fyunck(click) (talk) 02:11, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- And more. Ausir seems to be involved. Not only a Twitter account under his name did like the tweet in favour of the canvassing ([22]), he also bloated about us not being able to accuse him for this comment because of him being "an ancient admin" ([23]). And he has been discussing this RM with the other people for the whole night! Impru20talk 02:20, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- Edit: Note that Ausir has locked on his Twitter account while I was writing my last comment. Also note that, just in case, I've taken pic captures of the whole conversation if this needs to be brought to an higher stance. I really don't like for this to end badly, but you cannot pretend to come here disrupting Wikipedia and then act as if this wasn't with you. Impru20talk 02:21, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- Edit 2: They seem to have noticed we've spotted their little Twitter conversation and seem to be planning what to do next.([24]). Impru20talk 02:25, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- I did say that no one will be able to accuse me of creating an account only for the sake of this discussion, as some have been accused of here. And yeah, I have been talking about this discussion with a bunch of friends that I've been mutually following for quite a while now. I had no idea discussing public talk page discussions on social media was now disallowed. Ausir (talk) 02:27, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- Canvassing is NOT allowed, and those "bunch of friends" of you were actively promoting for people to participate in a RM you knew you would open on 1 July to support the cause of moving the article to Kyiv. And you can't claim you weren't aware of it because you were giving likes like crazy to these tweets. You read them and supported them. This is textbook off-wiki canvassing. This is very disappointing coming from an "ancient admin". The least I would hope from you is for this little charade of a RM to stop here and now. Impru20talk 02:30, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- To be perfectly honest, I'm ancient enough that I haven't been particularly active on English Wikipedia as an admin (just making a few edits here and there from time to time, but not following policy discussions and such) since before a page like WP:CANVASSING even existed. I guess you could call me out of touch with current English Wikipedia procedures (I say English specifically, since there is no such policy on Polish Wikipedia, for example). Ausir (talk) 02:39, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- @Ausir: the CANVASS policy has existed in a form that would prohibit this for 12 years now. If you believe that your knowledge of policies is running that far out of touch, and you're actually running into problems (as opposed to policies you don't know but aren't breaching), I'd have to suggest considering if you should retain your mop. Nosebagbear (talk) 13:13, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- You may have seen a time of Wikipedia when WP:CANVASSING was not of application. But it's of application now. And whether you may be familiar with it or not, you must still abide to it (I'm surprised that bringing a bunch of friends here to influence the outcome of a discussion in order to pursue a particular agenda didn't come out as inherently wrong to you, tho). Neither that nor the fact that you may not have been very active as an admin in recent times does justify your actions or those of all the other people involved here. Impru20talk 02:58, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- To be perfectly honest, I'm ancient enough that I haven't been particularly active on English Wikipedia as an admin (just making a few edits here and there from time to time, but not following policy discussions and such) since before a page like WP:CANVASSING even existed. I guess you could call me out of touch with current English Wikipedia procedures (I say English specifically, since there is no such policy on Polish Wikipedia, for example). Ausir (talk) 02:39, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- Casually discussing the Kiev situation among friends on twitter, friends who have no care about commenting here, is fine and dandy. I didn't look at the twitter account so I have no idea what was said. If those people then come here and post like-minded comments then this conversation was canvassed by you. If you have hundreds of followers and post the link and they all come here and tell their own friends it would be horrible for this move request. Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:37, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- To be fair, administrator Ausir is not very active here at all. So inactive it's hard to believe he still has an administrator badge. It doesn't excuse any canvassing or his rational that "Wikipedia shapes common usage nowadays, not just reflects it" comment from above, but it helps explain that he is out of touch with rules around here... enough to question his administrator status. Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:47, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- @Impru20: because much of the evidence is private/ from off-wiki it would have to go to the Arbitration Committee rather than ANI. If you're not comfortable filing there yourself, you're welcome to send me the material and I'll do it instead. ——Serial # 08:17, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- @Serial Number 54129: To be honest, I wouldn't wish for this to become so ugly unless strictly needed, but I don't know if there is any other way since the whole RM is currently compromised and we can't know how many of the support !votes come from canvassers (we could make a wild guess based on former sleeper accounts/new accounts, but Ausir isn't one of them yet he is still clearly involved. There could be more such cases as well). How can I send the evidence to you?
- Also not sure if we should bring this to ANI anyways to get input on what to do with the RM itself, without giving any potentially private evidence, since the canvassing issue has nonetheless been confirmed even by Ausir himself acknowledging discussing this with "a bunch of friends" on Twitter and the posted material is already more than enough to prove such canvassing exists. Impru20talk 09:05, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- Canvassing is NOT allowed, and those "bunch of friends" of you were actively promoting for people to participate in a RM you knew you would open on 1 July to support the cause of moving the article to Kyiv. And you can't claim you weren't aware of it because you were giving likes like crazy to these tweets. You read them and supported them. This is textbook off-wiki canvassing. This is very disappointing coming from an "ancient admin". The least I would hope from you is for this little charade of a RM to stop here and now. Impru20talk 02:30, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- I did say that no one will be able to accuse me of creating an account only for the sake of this discussion, as some have been accused of here. And yeah, I have been talking about this discussion with a bunch of friends that I've been mutually following for quite a while now. I had no idea discussing public talk page discussions on social media was now disallowed. Ausir (talk) 02:27, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- We did have an OUTing incident (assuming Ausir doesn't give his twitter on his userpage) above, and despite his announcing of it, it's unclear if we'd need to go to arbcom with it or not. We'd definitely have to go if any further evidence beyond a connection between username and twitter handle was to be made. I consider this RM heavily damaged - I'm not sure it can viably be closed and enacted (because we get counter-action, it gets hammered on both sides). I advise closing procedurally and discussing how to handle reopening. Nosebagbear (talk) 13:13, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- WP:OUTING involves the publication of personal information to harass other people, and this was not what was done here. I happened to find this Twitter discussion by chance. Only after did I saw that a person under his username (it was a public account at the time) was taking part in it, not just posting screenshots of this RM discussion there (to discuss its progress and insult some of us, btw), but also gloating about being an "ancient admin" in Wikipedia (thus, factually, it was him who revealed his identity). Since several of the Twitter accounts were public at the time of the canvassing denounce, their contents could be seen by anyone. No one here cares about how anyone in this discussion is called in real life; the content of that Twitter discussion only became the subject of the complaint because of them calling like-minded people to use their wiki accounts (or creating new ones) to intervene in this RM to support their cause of having the article moved to Kyiv. Nonetheless, considering that such discussion has been made private as a result of the canvassing discovery, I don't have any issues on the edit revisions involving references to Twitter accounts being redacted as soon as possible and bring this to the appropiate venue to preserve privacy as required.
- On the RM itself, considering that it did not provide any new information not already discussed on previous RMs, and that it was from its beginning an attempt to game the system and subvert consensus through canvassing, I can't see a conceivable way to solve it. Impru20talk 14:03, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- I would strongly suggest that this whole matter (not just the WP:CANVASSing but the move itself) be brought to Arbcom. This RM has been fatally damaged to the point of being non-viable. It should be administratively closed and another moratorium put in place or else another one will be initiated in 5 minutes with the same off-Wiki canvassing poisoning the discussion. Is there an administrator looking on?. That's what had to be done for the issue of how to deal with Macedonia when Greek and Greek-sympathizing editors were flooding every discussion about what to call it with "FYROM". WP:ARBMAC2 and the resulting WP:MOSMAC then became rocks to cling to for about a decade until the real-world situation was resolved. This is a job for objective, uninvolved admins and the Arbitration Committee. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 14:34, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- Agree. However, I'm new to this whole affair, having only intervened in this RM on the issue to date. So, while I can be able to help explaining the canvassing issue, this will probably require someone with knowledge from previous RMs as well to provide context for the moratorium, previous consensus and so on. Impru20talk 14:46, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- I would strongly suggest that this whole matter (not just the WP:CANVASSing but the move itself) be brought to Arbcom. This RM has been fatally damaged to the point of being non-viable. It should be administratively closed and another moratorium put in place or else another one will be initiated in 5 minutes with the same off-Wiki canvassing poisoning the discussion. Is there an administrator looking on?. That's what had to be done for the issue of how to deal with Macedonia when Greek and Greek-sympathizing editors were flooding every discussion about what to call it with "FYROM". WP:ARBMAC2 and the resulting WP:MOSMAC then became rocks to cling to for about a decade until the real-world situation was resolved. This is a job for objective, uninvolved admins and the Arbitration Committee. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 14:34, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Cassette tape
Fyunck(click) Can you read? You can call it whatever you like, a "plastic thingy with reels", I don't care. But I hate when illiterate WP:COMMONNAME takes over proper technical or official name as an article title, this is idiotic. Wikipedia has redirects, so you can have a redirect from "plastic thingy with reels" to Compact Cassette. Likewise, you can have redirect from Kiev to Kyiv, and it is still searchable. For lay people Wikipedia became the source of information, not an aggregator, and thus it encourages incorrect word usage, skewing the statistics that everyone likes to appeal to when bringing up WP:COMMONNAME argument. Sick. Mikus (talk) 18:53, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- Mikus The question is, Can YOU read? Wikipedia's rules are plain as day and expounded in WP:COMMONNAME. If you don't like it, then go there and try to get it changed. Otherwise, either shut up and follow the rules or get off Wikipedia. My level of rudeness is simply matching yours. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 19:42, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- TaivoLinguist What rudeness? Anyway, I am trying to find a procedure to appeal/contest a Wikipedia rule, can you point me to the right direction? Mikus (talk) 19:46, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- The procedure is exactly the same as it was when you did it three months ago. But unless you have something significant and new to add to your previous proposal, editors may well tire of the same proposal being made repetitiously. Kahastok talk 20:39, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- Oh, I actually did that. Forgot about it. So... no one commented? Bruh. EDIT: found the thread. Thanks. Mikus (talk) 20:50, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- I think you're overreaching if you start out with claiming "Common name is wrong". I'm certainly in favor of softening it and strengthening the Official name in certain circumstances. Remember, Rome wasn't built in a day, and sometimes we have to settle for a compromise if it's a move in the right direction. I'd be happy to discuss a strategy on your or my talk page if you wish. - BilCat (talk) 21:10, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- Oh, I actually did that. Forgot about it. So... no one commented? Bruh. EDIT: found the thread. Thanks. Mikus (talk) 20:50, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- What rudeness? I guess that's the problem in the world today... rudeness gets used so much that you become numb to it and don't recognize it anymore. Sad. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:41, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- The procedure is exactly the same as it was when you did it three months ago. But unless you have something significant and new to add to your previous proposal, editors may well tire of the same proposal being made repetitiously. Kahastok talk 20:39, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- TaivoLinguist What rudeness? Anyway, I am trying to find a procedure to appeal/contest a Wikipedia rule, can you point me to the right direction? Mikus (talk) 19:46, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
Strictly speaking, the proper "technical or official name" of the city as per the Ukrainian Constitution would be "City of Kyiv", not just "Kyiv". I am not sure if this debate is really warranted. Impru20talk 20:56, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- The official name of the city isn't even that. The official name of the city is Київ, not "Kyiv" and not "Kiev". --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 02:56, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
Two more years of lockdown
Cripes. Of course there are regular move requests, because this page should be moved. That's an indicator of WP:CONSENSUS. But now moves and free discussion of them are being banned with the justification that there are a lot of them. What are they going to do next, hold a Victory Day parade and a popular referendum? For reference, here’s what an argument for the move might look like:
The content reasons for or against the move should not be discussed here. El_C 17:46, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
|
---|
|
—Michael Z. 2020-07-02 15:20 z
- User:El_C, this was not meant to be a discussion of content reasons, but my resolution for my edit conflict that you caused when you shut down the requested move. Shall I move that to a separate heading? Thanks. —Michael Z. 2020-07-02 17:53 z
- When the RM discussion resumes, you may refactor. Until then, my clerking against discussing the views for or against the move in this section are to be expected. El_C 17:56, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
There has been 13 failed move requests. At some point these become disruptive and a timesink, so some throttling is due. El_C 15:27, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- No, there has been a “moratorium” and requests and discussion have been summarily removed here for six months. Of course there are attempts at move requests because the page title is out of date. And there will continue to be more, so what do you intend, freeze for two years and then for another decade because there are a lot of “disruptive” move requests? It’s the high-handed censorship of discussion that is disruptive and against Wikipedia’s principles. Please un-close the discussion.
- As you requested in the close template above, I have started a discussion on your talk page: #Clampdown_on_Talk%3AKiev. Let’s please reconsider this, or move on to a move review. —Michael Z. 2020-07-02 15:32 z
- Two years is absolutely unreasonable. Because the most recent RM wasn't allowed to run its course, a new one should be allowed in the near future. At that point, maybe we can think about a more reasonable moratorium if necessary. Calidum 15:38, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- It just seems like too many move requests lately, all failing. But, you're right, I'm caught up. New move request will happen soon. I'll update the request to read that. El_C 16:07, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- No, User: El_C, there has been a six-month “moratorium” imposed on this talk page. All move requests or even mention of moving have been summarily closed or deleted. There have been no move requests considered for six months (although they were being shut down pretty quickly before that). —Michael Z. 2020-07-02 17:19 z
- I'm looking at the 13 move requests in their totality over the years in my evaluation. El_C 17:32, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- So, User:El_C, thirteen requests since this article was created in 2002. The usage of this city’s name has been demonstrably changing at an accelerated rate throughout this whole time, especially after “watershed events,” as the naming conventions refer to them, taking place in 1991, in 2004–05, and from 2014 continuously to the present. So I don't see why it’s a big deal that a request to test the consensus on renaming has taken place every seventeen months. As the need to catch up to other references becomes more blatantly obvious, the demand to update will and should naturally increase. In this context a series of moratoriums spurred by requests create a feedback loop working directly against consensus. Anyway, thanks for taking the time. —Michael Z. 2020-07-02 21:02 z
- I'm looking at the 13 move requests in their totality over the years in my evaluation. El_C 17:32, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- No, User: El_C, there has been a six-month “moratorium” imposed on this talk page. All move requests or even mention of moving have been summarily closed or deleted. There have been no move requests considered for six months (although they were being shut down pretty quickly before that). —Michael Z. 2020-07-02 17:19 z
- It just seems like too many move requests lately, all failing. But, you're right, I'm caught up. New move request will happen soon. I'll update the request to read that. El_C 16:07, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Almost all of the sources provided to back up the late RM are already previous to the precedent RM in October/November 2019, yet that one still ended in a strong consensus against the move. No proof has been provided that supports the claim that there has been a change in common usage in the meantime (and they cannot be provided, because the change hasn't happened yet). There is evidence that usage may change in the future, but not that it's already happened, and this is what should matter in the end. Politically-loaded and POVish arguments claiming that there is some underground cause against Ukraine are not helpful to convince people that this is not in reality an attempt to right a great wrong/turn Wikipedia into a means through which such a common usage can be achieved. Pretending to ignore established consensus when no new facts can be provided and filling RMs repeatedly until opposers to the move desist out of pure boredom is openly disruptive and a refusal to get the point.
- I think that two years may be a little bit excessive. However, there are strong concerns now that a new canvassing effort may be prepared for next time and that we'll be seeing a new RM the day the moratorium expires, disregarding whether common usage has actually changed or not, so it's obvious that there must be a reasonable break until a new RM can take place. This is an intricate and problematic issue, indeed. Impru20talk 16:21, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- User:Impru20, your Google trends is an indicator of search terms people have used. It has nothing to do with the “prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources” that WP:COMMONNAME guides to use. Yours is a straw man argument. —Michael Z. 2020-07-02 17:23 z
- As per WP:MPN,
Per Wikipedia's naming policy, our choice of name does not automatically follow the official or local form, but depends on that change having become predominant in common global usage
. This is a mere reiteration of what WP:COMMONNAME already establishes. Since many of the sourced claims have happened only recently, you cannot establish the prevalence of the use of the new term over the old one in "independent, reliable English-language sources", since you'll still find a lot of sources from 2019 or even 2020 still using "Kiev". Indeed, you can claim that a change is taking place, but not that it has affected current "common global usage". If we are going to evaluate each other's arguments, I can dub yours as an enormous red herring attempt to focus attention away from the true deciding element here. Impru20talk 17:35, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- As per WP:MPN,
- Please, both of you, stop discussing the reasons for or against the move in this section. I won't collapse this comment thread, for now, but please take note. El_C 17:48, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
The RM above was made completely untenable by the off-wiki canvassing and I would certainly endorse its closure.
The reason for the last moratorium was that this was coming up over and over and dominating the talk page. The consensus was consistently against moving but nothing else could get done. And it had reached the stage where the requests were so repetitious that new analysis of the evidence wasn't happening - ironically, making consensus for the move much less likely. Part of the aim of the moratorium was to give some time so that editors were looking at the issues with fresh eyes.
Also, we should ask Arbcom to desysop the admin who thought it was a good idea to canvass this off-wiki, which was a gross breach of trust. Given the nature of the evidence, this may have to be handled by email. Kahastok talk 16:30, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- As mentioned on my talk page, I'm fine letting another AE experienced admin take over this request. But the provisional 2-year moratorium after it remains in effect. El_C 16:39, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- On July 2, 2020 El_C, who has admin (sysop) rights on enwiki closed the RM from July 1, 2020 and, at same time, unilaterally imposed a 2-year moratorium on RM for Kyiv. No discussion, no consensus, simply unilateral decision of an admin; completely against the spirit of Wikipedia. If this is not abuse of sysop powers to enact Censorship, then I don't know what is. We should ask Arbcom to desysop the admin, who thought it was a good idea to unilaterally impose a 2-year moratorium, without whatsoever consulting enwiki community.--73.75.115.5 (talk) 16:53, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- You do whatever you see fit, IP. But I challenge that the DS more than give me the authority to do so. El_C 16:59, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- As another uninvolved administrator I agree with El C that he has the authority to issue a two year moratorium on this discussion by the authority granted under discretionary sanctions. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:09, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- @El C and Barkeep49: Apologies if I was unclear in my wording - I agree that legally speaking El_C had power granted by Arbcom via WP:ARBEE to unilaterally impose a 2 year ban on RM, citing WP:ARBEE powers. What I meant by my comment, was that I'm appalled an enwiki admin actually did it (and it's not personal to El_C, I would've said the same thing to any admin who would propose this). @El_C/Barkeep49 I apologize if I sounded harsh with my "desysop" comment, but that's just the immediate reaction I had (and I'm pretty sure that's reflective of how others feel in this discussion). @Barkeep49 my proposed solution, is that an uninvolved admin reopens the RM immediately, with an oversight on any contribution from "sleeper accounts" and such (to counter any canvassing attempts from both sides - pro-Kiev'ers and pro-Kyiv'ers). Also, citing someone mentioning this discussion on Twitter and because of it throwing accusations of WP:Canvassing is the worst solution a sysop could choose in this situation, simply because this issue has been very hot starting in 2019/2020 and any RM request now (or any time in the future) would inevitably have people discussing it on social media like Facebook/Twitter.--73.75.115.5 (talk) 17:39, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- As a discretionary sanction action (even if El C has not formally logged it as such yet) it would be inappropriate for another sysop to just reverse it. The good news for you is that El C has indicated an openness to re-opening the discussion under similar conditions to what you propose. And FWIW, I agree that whenever this discussion is had it will face real challenges posed by canvassing. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:48, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- As mentioned on my talk page, there will need to be some time. Time to mitigate by tagging sleepers. And time for the Arbitration Committee to investigate allegations of which I have no idea about. El_C 17:52, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- El_C, apologies for being blunt, but that sounds like someone is trying to invoke some legal jumbo-mumbo to artificially delay the discussion. The logistics of how to enforce "tagging sleepers" seems trivial and I am sure any admin on enwiki knows how do it now, i.e., there's no need to "wait" for someone to create some fancy template for it. And regarding your point about the need for Arbcom to "investigate canvassing allegations on Twitter" - again that sounds like someone's trying to artificially delay the discussion, since we all know that Arbcom hearing could take months or even longer.--73.75.115.5 (talk) 18:07, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- There was no such intent and I reject the insinuation that it is otherwise. El_C 19:20, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- El_C, apologies for being blunt, but that sounds like someone is trying to invoke some legal jumbo-mumbo to artificially delay the discussion. The logistics of how to enforce "tagging sleepers" seems trivial and I am sure any admin on enwiki knows how do it now, i.e., there's no need to "wait" for someone to create some fancy template for it. And regarding your point about the need for Arbcom to "investigate canvassing allegations on Twitter" - again that sounds like someone's trying to artificially delay the discussion, since we all know that Arbcom hearing could take months or even longer.--73.75.115.5 (talk) 18:07, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- As mentioned on my talk page, there will need to be some time. Time to mitigate by tagging sleepers. And time for the Arbitration Committee to investigate allegations of which I have no idea about. El_C 17:52, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- As a discretionary sanction action (even if El C has not formally logged it as such yet) it would be inappropriate for another sysop to just reverse it. The good news for you is that El C has indicated an openness to re-opening the discussion under similar conditions to what you propose. And FWIW, I agree that whenever this discussion is had it will face real challenges posed by canvassing. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:48, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- @El C and Barkeep49: Apologies if I was unclear in my wording - I agree that legally speaking El_C had power granted by Arbcom via WP:ARBEE to unilaterally impose a 2 year ban on RM, citing WP:ARBEE powers. What I meant by my comment, was that I'm appalled an enwiki admin actually did it (and it's not personal to El_C, I would've said the same thing to any admin who would propose this). @El_C/Barkeep49 I apologize if I sounded harsh with my "desysop" comment, but that's just the immediate reaction I had (and I'm pretty sure that's reflective of how others feel in this discussion). @Barkeep49 my proposed solution, is that an uninvolved admin reopens the RM immediately, with an oversight on any contribution from "sleeper accounts" and such (to counter any canvassing attempts from both sides - pro-Kiev'ers and pro-Kyiv'ers). Also, citing someone mentioning this discussion on Twitter and because of it throwing accusations of WP:Canvassing is the worst solution a sysop could choose in this situation, simply because this issue has been very hot starting in 2019/2020 and any RM request now (or any time in the future) would inevitably have people discussing it on social media like Facebook/Twitter.--73.75.115.5 (talk) 17:39, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- As another uninvolved administrator I agree with El C that he has the authority to issue a two year moratorium on this discussion by the authority granted under discretionary sanctions. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:09, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Kahastok: To be fair and as far as I was able to ascertain, the involved admin was not the one that publicly called for the canvassing to happen at first. Still, he obviously supported the call and participated on it, and his gloating about his wiki position may have been counterproductive by helping further such a behaviour. Heeding Serial Number's advice, I've already emailed him all info I could gather on the issue so that it can be properly presented to Arbcom if required.
- On the IP's comment above (seriously, that's unhelpful and outrightly disruptive on the issue at hand), considering its short editing history in Wikipedia, its involvement in the canvassing-ridden RM and WP:ADVOCACY concerns behind its actions, I question whether it should be blocked to prevent further disruption. Impru20talk 17:03, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- You do whatever you see fit, IP. But I challenge that the DS more than give me the authority to do so. El_C 16:59, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- On July 2, 2020 El_C, who has admin (sysop) rights on enwiki closed the RM from July 1, 2020 and, at same time, unilaterally imposed a 2-year moratorium on RM for Kyiv. No discussion, no consensus, simply unilateral decision of an admin; completely against the spirit of Wikipedia. If this is not abuse of sysop powers to enact Censorship, then I don't know what is. We should ask Arbcom to desysop the admin, who thought it was a good idea to unilaterally impose a 2-year moratorium, without whatsoever consulting enwiki community.--73.75.115.5 (talk) 16:53, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- Off-wiki canvassing is a reason to protect the discussion -- to restrict who can participate -- not to shut it down. This is the world we live in. We can safely assume that every contentious Wikipedia discussion will be subject to off-wiki canvassing of some sort. We need to figure out how to deal with it rather than shutting down good faith discussion. Also disagree with the 2 year ban. This is, AFAIR, the first one of these I've participated in, and that because it was listed at CENT.
If you're going to shut this down, then start a new thread, reopen it with more structure/protections, list it at CENT, and say it's the last one for a year. Shutting down discussion and saying no more discussions can be opened seems problematic. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 17:20, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- The issue is that, in this case, there were preparations for the canvassing before the RM was opened. It was not a good-faith discussion which incidentally happened to suffer from canvassing; rather, evidence points to the canvassing having been planned alongside the discussion, so the good-faith element is entirely missing from the RM's inception. Impru20talk 17:27, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- Just wondering, how are you ever going to stop that from happening? Right this second it's two years. Every Tom, Dick, and Mary outside canvasser and non-good faith editor will have 2 July 2022 circled and locked by then. By putting down a date that an RM can occur, that's the date it will occur. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:02, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- It's a tricky call. You could attempt for uninvolved admins to intervene and have them review any attempt to open a RM on the issue, to ascertain whether there is new evidence for a change in common usage that did not exist at the time of previous RMs. If that's the case, the RM could proceed and discussion could take place. Canvassing is still a risk, but at the very least that would mean that the date of such RM is not circled and locked in time, but a flexible one that would remove any attempt at organizing such canvassing beforehand. Plus, should there be any new such evidence of a change in usage having taken place, maybe the RM could be successful and we'd skip all of this drama. Right now, what we should be working to prevent is the opening of RMs just for the sake of it. Impru20talk 18:27, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- Just wondering, how are you ever going to stop that from happening? Right this second it's two years. Every Tom, Dick, and Mary outside canvasser and non-good faith editor will have 2 July 2022 circled and locked by then. By putting down a date that an RM can occur, that's the date it will occur. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:02, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- The issue is that, in this case, there were preparations for the canvassing before the RM was opened. It was not a good-faith discussion which incidentally happened to suffer from canvassing; rather, evidence points to the canvassing having been planned alongside the discussion, so the good-faith element is entirely missing from the RM's inception. Impru20talk 17:27, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- Am I showing my age too much if I refer to the Gdansk/Danzig vote?
Nonsense. Discussion shut down after two days? Discussion shut down for two years? Shame. Shame. Shame shame shame. Cui bono? Who's afraid of possible (! just possible !) change? Week long discussion every 6 months - so what?! Chrzwzcz (talk) 19:11, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- When we have a bad faith opening and outside canvassing then other issues are at stake. This was not turning into a normal discussion because of that. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:14, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- No, we are not going to have 20 RMs in the next decade. If that is your expectation, then I'm sorry to disappoint. El_C 19:20, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- Sooo.. 13 would be cool? Levivich [dubious – discuss] 19:47, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- Bar Mitzvah! El_C 19:48, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- Well, when you look at it that way, lot of kids would be really happy if upon their Bar Mitzvah they were banned from going to temple for two years. Levivich [dubious – discuss] 19:54, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- I live to give. But seriously, one reason the 2-year moratorium is provisional is in the interest of BEANS. El_C 20:03, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- Well, when you look at it that way, lot of kids would be really happy if upon their Bar Mitzvah they were banned from going to temple for two years. Levivich [dubious – discuss] 19:54, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- Bar Mitzvah! El_C 19:48, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- (ec) Thank you, User:El_C for taking charge. The fact of the RM wasn't necessarily the problem--I full expected to have a new RM filed at 1 minute after midnight, 1 July, Eastern European Summer Time. I probably wrote as much at some point in the last six months. The problems that this particular RM had were:
- It was filed by an anon IP with no editing history, but seemed to have been written by someone with experience. The RM smelled like rotten fish from its filing.
- It was clearly being fueled by new editors and editors who have NEVER before edited on any related topic being summoned by illegal canvassing (obvious even before the Twitter evidence came to light).
- Then the Twitter evidence of canvassing that came to light. It was public until the tweeters discovered that the game was up and then it was hidden. If it was aboveboard, then why hide it?
- If you think a new RM is appropriate, then so be it, but please, please, please tightly monitor it and perhaps even check the editing credentials of any participant. I certainly wouldn't object if you limited participation to only those editors who have participated here before--on both sides of the issue. This summoning of participants from around and outside the Wikiverse who have no history on the page is classic canvassing. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 19:56, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for your support, TaivoLinguist. Yes, close monitoring would be a given, for sure. As to what conditions are set out for a new or reopeoned discussion, I admit that that is still up in the air. To a large part due to some of the concerns you've just raised above. El_C 20:03, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- The close was not helpful. It would have been an easy matter for the closer to ignore all !votes from editors with less than ~1000 edits. I recognize many of the participants on the discussion as frequent contributors to RM discussions. Canvassing is a fact of life on Wikipedia and easy to deal with. A two-year moratorium is preposterous, especially if we have been prevent from discussing the matter since the last moratorium ended.--- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 20:30, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- As someone who first came here due to the RM being posted centrally, I see nothing wrong with seeking out the opinion of neutral editors. The persistent outside canvassing going on however has clearly been catastrophic for the expected result of said canvassing, so I hope those elements involved are taking note. Something like this can simply not be rammed through. StonyBrook (talk) 20:12, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- Yeah, one can only wonder why it was closed so quickly. Give it a fair chance like any other move request, do not close it because you fear you may lose this time. And to be sure impose years long discussion ban. No kind of "lawyer/bureaucratic" justification, it is just hypocrisy. Chrzwzcz (talk) 20:39, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- I take exception to that statement, which verges on a personal attack. You are free to appeal my decision (such as it is) in any suitable forum. But it is a discretionary sanctions action, which you may dislike, but carries its own ramifications. El_C 20:43, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- Wow. Now I am in jeopardy because I disagree with this type of winning by silencing of the opposition, very nice, very nice indeed. Yes 20RMs uin next decade - why not, Kyiv/Kiev is evolving thing, so Wiki should hop on board sooner than 2 years too late... I am not saying it must be changed or whjatever, I am for fair RM and fair evaluation. Since when number of supporters/opposers matter. Arguments matter. So why that fear of "canvassing". Oy vey... Chrzwzcz (talk) 20:50, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- First of all User:Chrzwzcz this RM was already NOT a "fair chance" because of the violations of Wikipedia Canvassing and the summoning of people outside Wikipedia to participate. There was nothing "fair" about this from the beginning. And your accusations against User:El_C, who was an uninvolved and neutral admin, are completely and totally out of line. He's willing to initiate a new RM before the 2-year moratorium, but only under strict supervision to bypass the obvious cheating that was making this RM totally invalid. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 21:46, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- I was only accusing these "blink and you miss it discussions" or "elections won by cancelling the elections" type of thing. It is not important how it all started, it is important if it is valid proposal and fairly evaluated. Period. 22:38, 2 July 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chrzwzcz (talk • contribs)
- First of all User:Chrzwzcz this RM was already NOT a "fair chance" because of the violations of Wikipedia Canvassing and the summoning of people outside Wikipedia to participate. There was nothing "fair" about this from the beginning. And your accusations against User:El_C, who was an uninvolved and neutral admin, are completely and totally out of line. He's willing to initiate a new RM before the 2-year moratorium, but only under strict supervision to bypass the obvious cheating that was making this RM totally invalid. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 21:46, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- Wow. Now I am in jeopardy because I disagree with this type of winning by silencing of the opposition, very nice, very nice indeed. Yes 20RMs uin next decade - why not, Kyiv/Kiev is evolving thing, so Wiki should hop on board sooner than 2 years too late... I am not saying it must be changed or whjatever, I am for fair RM and fair evaluation. Since when number of supporters/opposers matter. Arguments matter. So why that fear of "canvassing". Oy vey... Chrzwzcz (talk) 20:50, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- I take exception to that statement, which verges on a personal attack. You are free to appeal my decision (such as it is) in any suitable forum. But it is a discretionary sanctions action, which you may dislike, but carries its own ramifications. El_C 20:43, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- Yeah, one can only wonder why it was closed so quickly. Give it a fair chance like any other move request, do not close it because you fear you may lose this time. And to be sure impose years long discussion ban. No kind of "lawyer/bureaucratic" justification, it is just hypocrisy. Chrzwzcz (talk) 20:39, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for your support, TaivoLinguist. Yes, close monitoring would be a given, for sure. As to what conditions are set out for a new or reopeoned discussion, I admit that that is still up in the air. To a large part due to some of the concerns you've just raised above. El_C 20:03, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- Sooo.. 13 would be cool? Levivich [dubious – discuss] 19:47, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
I do think it’s very troublesome that as soon as the discussion was leaning towards Kyiv, there was a sudden intervention by a certain person who has quotes of Russian dictator Lenin, who presided over the Ukrainian-Soviet war, to halt renaming the title of this article from the antiquated Russian name to the modern name in English and Ukrainian. In addition, I would suggest that moves to restrict the people who can participate in decision-making and consensus building is a form of gerrymandering, intentional or unintentional. The move to take decision making away from regular editors and viewers and into the hands of an elitist clique is extremely concerning. Tāwhiwhi (talk) 00:47, 3 July 2020 (UTC) — Tāwhiwhi (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- I'm not sure a user with two edits, both to this page, has any familiarity with Wikipedia policies and guidelines (including WP:DEMOCRACY) as represented by the Arbitration Committee or admins acting under its authority. El_C 00:55, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- I don't mean to be rude and I apologise if any offence was incurred per my previous edit - but I would like to gently remind you that sometimes new users do read the policy pages before jumping in. Tāwhiwhi (talk) 01:19, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
I don't mean to be rude
— I think you've already crossed that particular bridge. El_C 01:25, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- I don't mean to be rude and I apologise if any offence was incurred per my previous edit - but I would like to gently remind you that sometimes new users do read the policy pages before jumping in. Tāwhiwhi (talk) 01:19, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- The discussion was never "leaning towards Kyiv", as Wikipedia discussions are not a counting of "votes". Personal attacks against other users are also not a good idea. BilCat (talk) 00:58, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- Just for the record, I have zero preference whether this article should be called Kiev or Kyiv. I absolutely do not care which of these prevails in the end. It is truly unimportant to me. And any aspersions to the contrary are, if anything, indicative of the very same disruptive trend that ought to be curtailed here. El_C 01:05, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
A modest proposal
Since this RM was procedurally closed 36 hours after opening because it was "fatally compromised" due to off-Wiki canvassing and other potentially compromising irregularities, some specific directives, tailored exclusively for this subject matter may be in order. If discussions regarding the main title header for Wikipedia's article delineating the capital of Ukraine are considered to be such a "timesink" and so "disruptive" to the proper functioning of Wikipedia that they must be put into lockdown for two years, then this is obviously a special case which calls for special procedures.
The key aspect of the lockdown/moratorium is that the denial of the right to discuss this matter and then to vote upon it is unfair to "true" Wikipedians, the ones who show up every day to contribute. Thus, the "modest proposal" is to make off-wiki canvassing irrelevant by limiting participation to those "true Wikipedians" whom we all know, the usual suspects. While it goes against the grain of Wikipedia's standard practice, it will at least allow a poll regarding the mindset of "true Wikipedians" regarding this longterm controversy.
This RM, most likely with the same or slightly updated text, should be reopened by a "true Wikipedian", seconded by another "true Wikipedian" and should be allowed to run until there are no more comments for three, four or five days.
The specifics of this proposal will obviously needs to be fine-tuned, primarily who qualifies as a "true Wikipedian" eligible to participate and vote in this "exclusive" RM and whether such a vote would count as establishing a WP:CONSENSUS. The centerpiece of the "modest proposal" would be to make participation so difficult that only a small number of "true Wikipedians" would be able to participate and then relieve the stringency as needed.
Thus, start with a five-year minimum participation, a minimum of 30 edits per month for every single month of those five years and, as method of excluding single purpose accounts and "sleeper cells", any edits to articles or talk pages relating to Ukraine, Kyiv/Kiev or Russia should represent no more than 10 percent of each month's total edits. Those admittedly stringent preconditions may be loosened upon consensus.
Finally, I realize full well that it goes against the spirit and principles of Wikipedia to create a special class of "true Wikipedians" or "senior Wikipedians" who would hold special privileges not available to other Wikipedians. However, this "special senior participation" would enable longterm Wikipedians an opportunity to express their views and cast their votes while keeping out special interest groups. The alternative is to lock in place for two years a state of affairs which is unsupported by all current WP:RELIABLE SOURCES, governmental institutions, geographical resources and media outlets. Let us discuss the matter. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 20:28, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- I only joined 3 years ago and I have more that 24429 edits. I would fail your "true Wikipedian" test. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 20:33, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- I don't feel it should be so restrictive. Certainly IPs should be out. But you now have an administrator who would fit the bill, yet was instrumental in canvassing that caused a lot of the troubles to begin with. It would be nice to simply let this one be handled by administrator !votes with the rest of us simply supplying the evidence of Kiev/Kyiv usage, but that is worrisome when we see the lengths some will go to canvas. Bottom line is the lead will say it's Kiev, Kyiv or Kyiv, Kiev, regardless. Most people will still pronounce it Key-ev or Key-ef till they croak, no matter how it's spelled here. I have an opinion on how it should be spelled here based on what I read and see in English writing around the world, but in the end I'm still going to write it the way I please no matter what goes on here and no matter what Ukraine or Russia say I should do. When the sun comes up in the morning (or at least I hope it does) I'll plug away at other wikipedia interests no matter the title here. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:54, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- I don't have a strong opinion about the 2-year moratorium, but any extended-confirmed account that wasn't achieved by gaming the edit count should be included in any future !vote. StonyBrook (talk) 20:58, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- Since when are "most people" reliable source for wikipedia? Wikipedie should call it how sources call it regargless of your opinion how "the people" call it. Chrzwzcz (talk) 21:01, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- I said "most people" will pronounce it the same no matter what gets decided on this issue here. Goodness. I did not say most people are any kind of a reliable source as to what is decided here. And Wikipedia absolutely does not always go by sourcing anyway. In the spelling of peoples names we tend to go by how that person spells their name in their native country (using the latin alphabet), not by how it is sourced. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:47, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- I don't feel it should be so restrictive. Certainly IPs should be out. But you now have an administrator who would fit the bill, yet was instrumental in canvassing that caused a lot of the troubles to begin with. It would be nice to simply let this one be handled by administrator !votes with the rest of us simply supplying the evidence of Kiev/Kyiv usage, but that is worrisome when we see the lengths some will go to canvas. Bottom line is the lead will say it's Kiev, Kyiv or Kyiv, Kiev, regardless. Most people will still pronounce it Key-ev or Key-ef till they croak, no matter how it's spelled here. I have an opinion on how it should be spelled here based on what I read and see in English writing around the world, but in the end I'm still going to write it the way I please no matter what goes on here and no matter what Ukraine or Russia say I should do. When the sun comes up in the morning (or at least I hope it does) I'll plug away at other wikipedia interests no matter the title here. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:54, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- "Good evening and welcome to the Dunny-on-the-Wold by-election. The first thing I must tell you is that the turnout has been very good. As a matter of fact, the voter turned out before breakfast."
- I suggest you rest assured that this talk page will not turn into a pumpkin at midnight. Per the above, this sort of speculation is not helpful. There are good reasons why there are things that are not and should not be entirely clear at this point. Kahastok talk 21:09, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- User:Chrzwzcz, reliable sources are judged by reliable editors and a WP:CONSENSUS is reached among those editors. Your comment is rather naive because reliable sources differ and have different weights in terms of consideration. YOU count X as a reliable source, but I disagree as to its relevance. That's why reliable editors are important. User:Roman Spinner, while your heart is in the right place, your criteria for inclusion might very well exclude everyone. I have been an editor for over a decade, but during some very busy semesters (especially during finals week) I have done little editing or when I was recovering from surgery or traveling internationally, thus I would be excluded. There is simply no way to state "each and every month X edits for ten years". That's an unreasonable demand even though I respect your intention (as well as your honest willingness to be excluded). I'm willing to trust User:El_C and let him determine how to keep only the appropriate editors involved and exclude those who are not. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 21:57, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- This "judging by reliable editors" was not quite allowed, it was all quickly banned and moreover maybe banned for 2 years. Not cool. It is completely OK to reevaluate evolving thing more often. Better than just cancel it because "it would surely have same result as before". Chrzwzcz (talk) 22:52, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I don't see how any move discussion on Kiev will not be canvassed, no matter when it's held and under whatever rules. The ultimate decision will probably have to be made by ArbCom, so we might as well appeal to them now. - BilCat (talk) 22:00, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- I think that you're absolutely right User:BilCat. The next RM will just be another stalemate. This issue is so contentious that ARBCOM will be far better and more binding and stable than these continuous and inconclusive discussions. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 22:11, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks. I do believe "Kyiv" is trending upward, and that it will pass the threshold for most common English spelling sooner if not later. We're just not "there" yet. Until then, ArbCom is probably best to determine when and how the change will take place on Wikipedia. It might also be a good place to address whether or not Common Name is an appropriate guideline in situations such as this where a whole country sees a certain spelling or name as an artifact of past oppression, and Wikipedia's role in that whole issue. - BilCat (talk) 22:19, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- Another article with similar issues on name/spelling in light of past oppression is Bangalore/Begaluru, and there are no doubt others. - BilCat (talk) 22:24, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- I was involved with ARBMAC2 and the stability that the decision brought to Macedonia's name vis à vis Greek trademark demands was invaluable. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 22:27, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, WP:ARBMAC2 is a good precedent for seeking ArbCom's involvement in this issue. - BilCat (talk) 22:40, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- I was involved with ARBMAC2 and the stability that the decision brought to Macedonia's name vis à vis Greek trademark demands was invaluable. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 22:27, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
Coffeeandcrumbs and TaivoLinguist, due to complaints regarding participation of newly-minted single-purpose accounts, the reasoning behind "a modest proposal" was to start with restrictions so onerous that few Wikipedians would be eligible to participate and then scale those restrictions downward. Of course, in practical terms, depending upon consensus, only one year and 5000 edits should be sufficient for participation or even 6 months and 2500 edits, all other aspects having been satisfied. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 22:24, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
User:El_C would you consider bypassing reopening this RM, even with strict participation guidelines, and moving straight to Arbitration? --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 22:29, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- I second that request. - BilCat (talk) 22:40, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
- Third. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 00:39, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- If anyone expresses intent to bring this before the Committee, then yes, everything gets suspended. As always, I defer to the Committee's guidance or direct intervention. El_C 00:50, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- I believe that User:Impru20 is coordinating with User:Serial Number 54129 to prepare a request for ArbCom. I could have misunderstood. But since few of us have any experience preparing a case for ArbCom, it's probably not going to happen quickly enough to satisfy some here. But I, for one, prefer to present the evidence before a committee of neutral and experienced Wikipedians rather than witnessing another attempt to push through a change based on how many Cossacks can be summoned from the steppes to sign up for Wikipedia and vote for a change. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 03:07, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- Oh, okay. I was unaware of that. El_C 03:16, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- It would be good if there was an update which confirms this. El_C 10:23, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- El C: Yup. I updated on it yesterday already, but it got lost among all the chatting. I emailed the evidence I had to Serial Number 54129 so he could present it to Arbcom; now we'll have to wait for new developments on the issue. Impru20talk 11:13, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- I believe that User:Impru20 is coordinating with User:Serial Number 54129 to prepare a request for ArbCom. I could have misunderstood. But since few of us have any experience preparing a case for ArbCom, it's probably not going to happen quickly enough to satisfy some here. But I, for one, prefer to present the evidence before a committee of neutral and experienced Wikipedians rather than witnessing another attempt to push through a change based on how many Cossacks can be summoned from the steppes to sign up for Wikipedia and vote for a change. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 03:07, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- If anyone expresses intent to bring this before the Committee, then yes, everything gets suspended. As always, I defer to the Committee's guidance or direct intervention. El_C 00:50, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- Third. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 00:39, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
COMMONNAME source analysis
To assist for the next requested move, please contribute to Talk:Kiev/sources. Levivich [dubious – discuss] 03:15, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- Bravo! This is what I called for several times and it was declined because of... some kind of reasons, I don't remember, something preposterous probably. Thanks. Chrzwzcz (talk) 16:27, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- Oh yes, seems very neutral. Users loading the Kyiv section full of sources wherever "Kyiv" is slightly mentioned, then removing/editing sources from the Kiev section so that it's made clear that these also conveniently support the cause for Kyiv. At this time, it seems obvious this issue should be left to a neutral, third party to handle. I'd support Arbcom taking a decision on the renaming issue as suggested above. Impru20talk 17:55, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- Feel free to add to the list. Neither Arbcom nor any other third party is going to decide the title of this article; it'll be decided by consensus. The more evidence of COMMONNAME available to editors, the better. Levivich [dubious – discuss] 18:00, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) The issue is that the list is basically a copy-paste of what was already said in support of "Kyiv" in the closed RM above, and in itself a red herring to keep the focus away from the true deciding factor here, which as per WP:MPN is the change in the local form of the name having become predominant in common global usage. None of these sources does back up that "Kyiv" has become the dominant form in common global usage; if anything, they point to a trend hinting that such change may happen in the future, not that it has happened just yet, so I don't what what the usefulness of this "evidence" is. I could myself pile-on hundreds or even thousands of sources using either "Kiev" or "Kyiv", which I could find just by conducting the appropiate searches in Google, yet those by themselves would be of little help or even be counterproductive because of them turning into an unreadable text wall. On the other hand, the list is being turned into a pro-Kyiv propaganda item by some of the same people who crafted the canvassing-ridden RM above. Unless you suggest I should jump in and risk edit warring over it, I'd rather be prudent and wait for the issue getting addressed and resolved the proper way. In this case, the above call that we should bring this for resolution by a third-party authority and avoid us the drama of subsequent RMs (which everyone seemingly accept will be afflicted by the same sort of canvassing again) seems like a wise advice. Impru20talk 18:56, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- User:Impru20, where did you get the idea that “common global usage” should determine the title of an article about a place. The guidelines it is actually “prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources.” I don’t know how you expect us to determine this while avoiding finding out what it says in, say, a bunch of English-language sources.
- Secondly, I think we can all assume that formerly nearly every English-language source used Kiev. It seems to me that it would help paint the picture by making note of the ones that have changed their practice. If you think that it’s unfair not to list the ones that have actively clung to or reaffirmed the use of Kiev in recent years, anyone may contribute to the list, so fill your boots!
- Ironically, compiling the list of organizations and references that have actively clung to or reaffirmed the use of Kiev would be quite easy, since it is quite small. I believe you could not compile a list of thousands of sources. But start with Wikipedia.
- And please assume good faith while you comment about editors who are doing a lot of work trying to improve Wikipedia. This discussion has more than enough denigrating language and accusatory innuendo like “pile-on” and “pro-Kyiv propaganda” already. —Michael Z. 2020-07-03 19:17 z
- I agree that toning down the battleground rhetoric would be helpful.
- It's interesting you cite to WP:MPN where it talks about the change in local form "having become predominant in common global usage". The very next sentence says,
That can be assessed by reviewing up-to-date references to the place in a modern context in reliable, authoritative sources such as news media, other encyclopedias, atlases and academic publications as well as the official publications of major English-speaking countries, for example the CIA World Factbook.
Hence why I started Talk:Kiev/sources. You're welcome to add up-to-date references from reliable, authoritative sources such as those listed. Levivich [dubious – discuss] 19:42, 3 July 2020 (UTC)- Sorry, but I won't be contributing to unofficially re-opening the RM by virtue of moving the discussion from here onto issues deriving from Talk:Kiev/sources. I have made my position on this clear enough below. Impru20talk 19:44, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- That's fine if you don't want to contribute to the gathering of sources, but it would be nice if you could stop insinuating that I and other editors have improper motives or are otherwise doing something wrong by gathering sources, as you did below. Levivich [dubious – discuss] 19:48, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
it would be nice if you could stop insinuating that I and other editors have improper motives or are otherwise doing something wrong by gathering sources, as you did below
Excuse me, but what I said below is that it'd indeed be wrong if such action of "gathering sources" implies an unofficial re-opening of a discussion which is currently closed and with a moratorium in force. This was not an insinuation: I made it crystal clear. Do not suggest yourself that I'm "insinuating" anything else. Whenever I've questioned the actions of any single user I think it's clear who I am referring to and that I won't be saying anything without proof of it. I don't remember having questioned your actions in particular; sorry if you considered it so, but please, do not put in my mouth words that I haven't said. Impru20talk 20:01, 3 July 2020 (UTC)- Hi, Impru20, what moratorium is in force? The way I read the closing of the move request above, including the update, El_C intends to enact a moratorium on page moves after the upcoming re-run or replacement of this move request. If you think they intend to prevent us from collecting sources of information about the subject of this article, please get some clarification. —Michael Z. 2020-07-03 21:36 z
- That is correct. Provisionally. Anyway, Talk:Kiev/sources remains at your disposal. El_C 21:41, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- I may have misunderstood it, but wasn't it that a 2-year moratorium, even if provisional and pending any future Arbcom development, was already in force?
If you think they intend to prevent us from collecting sources of information about the subject of this article, please get some clarification
Get some clarification yourself before rewritting my own statements, I have never claimed you should be prevented from collecting sources of any kind. Btw, you don't have to respond to every comment I make in this discussion. This is not the RM. Impru20talk 22:33, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- Hi, Impru20, what moratorium is in force? The way I read the closing of the move request above, including the update, El_C intends to enact a moratorium on page moves after the upcoming re-run or replacement of this move request. If you think they intend to prevent us from collecting sources of information about the subject of this article, please get some clarification. —Michael Z. 2020-07-03 21:36 z
- Impru20,
I suspect the only current purpose of that list of sources is to keep the RM alive in some form
. I created that list, so that was a comment about me. Levivich [dubious – discuss] 20:05, 3 July 2020 (UTC)- Levivich I have never said that the list's current purpose derives from its creation nor that it has come by your hand. You will have truly created the list in good faith hoping for it to turn into a helpful tool for any future RM. It's sadly degradating into something else. Impru20talk 20:07, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- The list contains mainly sources which already switched. The unlisted rest (probably) hasn't switch yet, just by default. If you want to point out high profile (type of) source which still uses Kiev, it is open for edit. 22:59, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- Exactly. The list is currently a merely reformatted re-post of what was already shown in the RM above, and it has now been taken over by the RM's OP who, incidentally, also happens to unilaterally cancel/re-edit the sources not supporting their cause to make them appear as supportive of their cause as well. Since their own RM was suspended (because of issues also related to their own behaviour) and all discussion on the issue is currently halted, it's very unlikely anyone but those having strong feelings about this will actually care to go to the list and edit it, lest it become another heated/dramatic discussion over the issue. Impru20talk 14:12, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
- And? Good to have it together, and it is bigger and bigger with more and more impressive achievements. Facebook is the latest addition which possibly started all this (facebook generation :)) Who can say RM would end like the last time? The list contains more and more very important sources and it propably reached the threshold. Or who are you missing? Who do you need to be impressed? How come it would end the same when the conditions change? IMHO Kyiv already wins on number of the most important media on board. Are we waiting for number of google search results without any filtering? "Common name in the last year" is OK with me, it is able to react to the changes, not like unfiltered google search. Chrzwzcz (talk) 15:09, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, it is very impressive as a massive (and biased) red herring consisting in throwing a bunch of sources mentioning "Kyiv", then distorting any ones which dare to mention "Kiev". Wikipedia is not a battleground, so I'll not be commenting what "wins" here because this is not a matter of winning anything, despite what some people are very obviously intending to do. Impru20talk 15:56, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
- The policy cited by Impru20 asks us to “engage in polite discussion” and “assume good faith.” —Michael Z. 2020-07-04 18:47 z
- I agree that there has been a strong lack of politeness in this discussion. However, you were remarkably absent when several users literally threw themselves at insulting the uninvolved admin who closed the RM, so I don't how why you keep mentioning me at every turn. On the other hand, I'm not sure what do you mean with AGF: it's been already stated that it's not an excuse to blind yourself when there's evidence of a reprehensible behaviour going on. Finally, for the second (or third) time: you don't need to respond to every one of my comments, particularly in parts of the discussion where you are not even participating or being mentioned. Note that intentionally singling out one person for purposes other than to build an encyclopedia, even if mildy, is strongly discouraged. Impru20talk 19:08, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
- Re
you don't need to respond to every one of my comments
when I Ctrl+F for the following strings:- "Levivich [dubious": 15 hits
- "Michael Z. ": 20
- "TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk)": 27
- " El_C " (with the spaces): 32 (the closer)
- " Impru20talk " (with the spaces): 38
- Just saying. Levivich [dubious – discuss] 19:16, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
- Re
- I agree that there has been a strong lack of politeness in this discussion. However, you were remarkably absent when several users literally threw themselves at insulting the uninvolved admin who closed the RM, so I don't how why you keep mentioning me at every turn. On the other hand, I'm not sure what do you mean with AGF: it's been already stated that it's not an excuse to blind yourself when there's evidence of a reprehensible behaviour going on. Finally, for the second (or third) time: you don't need to respond to every one of my comments, particularly in parts of the discussion where you are not even participating or being mentioned. Note that intentionally singling out one person for purposes other than to build an encyclopedia, even if mildy, is strongly discouraged. Impru20talk 19:08, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
- The policy cited by Impru20 asks us to “engage in polite discussion” and “assume good faith.” —Michael Z. 2020-07-04 18:47 z
- Yes, it is very impressive as a massive (and biased) red herring consisting in throwing a bunch of sources mentioning "Kyiv", then distorting any ones which dare to mention "Kiev". Wikipedia is not a battleground, so I'll not be commenting what "wins" here because this is not a matter of winning anything, despite what some people are very obviously intending to do. Impru20talk 15:56, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
- And? Good to have it together, and it is bigger and bigger with more and more impressive achievements. Facebook is the latest addition which possibly started all this (facebook generation :)) Who can say RM would end like the last time? The list contains more and more very important sources and it propably reached the threshold. Or who are you missing? Who do you need to be impressed? How come it would end the same when the conditions change? IMHO Kyiv already wins on number of the most important media on board. Are we waiting for number of google search results without any filtering? "Common name in the last year" is OK with me, it is able to react to the changes, not like unfiltered google search. Chrzwzcz (talk) 15:09, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
- Exactly. The list is currently a merely reformatted re-post of what was already shown in the RM above, and it has now been taken over by the RM's OP who, incidentally, also happens to unilaterally cancel/re-edit the sources not supporting their cause to make them appear as supportive of their cause as well. Since their own RM was suspended (because of issues also related to their own behaviour) and all discussion on the issue is currently halted, it's very unlikely anyone but those having strong feelings about this will actually care to go to the list and edit it, lest it become another heated/dramatic discussion over the issue. Impru20talk 14:12, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
- The list contains mainly sources which already switched. The unlisted rest (probably) hasn't switch yet, just by default. If you want to point out high profile (type of) source which still uses Kiev, it is open for edit. 22:59, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- Levivich I have never said that the list's current purpose derives from its creation nor that it has come by your hand. You will have truly created the list in good faith hoping for it to turn into a helpful tool for any future RM. It's sadly degradating into something else. Impru20talk 20:07, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- That's fine if you don't want to contribute to the gathering of sources, but it would be nice if you could stop insinuating that I and other editors have improper motives or are otherwise doing something wrong by gathering sources, as you did below. Levivich [dubious – discuss] 19:48, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- Sorry, but I won't be contributing to unofficially re-opening the RM by virtue of moving the discussion from here onto issues deriving from Talk:Kiev/sources. I have made my position on this clear enough below. Impru20talk 19:44, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) The issue is that the list is basically a copy-paste of what was already said in support of "Kyiv" in the closed RM above, and in itself a red herring to keep the focus away from the true deciding factor here, which as per WP:MPN is the change in the local form of the name having become predominant in common global usage. None of these sources does back up that "Kyiv" has become the dominant form in common global usage; if anything, they point to a trend hinting that such change may happen in the future, not that it has happened just yet, so I don't what what the usefulness of this "evidence" is. I could myself pile-on hundreds or even thousands of sources using either "Kiev" or "Kyiv", which I could find just by conducting the appropiate searches in Google, yet those by themselves would be of little help or even be counterproductive because of them turning into an unreadable text wall. On the other hand, the list is being turned into a pro-Kyiv propaganda item by some of the same people who crafted the canvassing-ridden RM above. Unless you suggest I should jump in and risk edit warring over it, I'd rather be prudent and wait for the issue getting addressed and resolved the proper way. In this case, the above call that we should bring this for resolution by a third-party authority and avoid us the drama of subsequent RMs (which everyone seemingly accept will be afflicted by the same sort of canvassing again) seems like a wise advice. Impru20talk 18:56, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- Feel free to add to the list. Neither Arbcom nor any other third party is going to decide the title of this article; it'll be decided by consensus. The more evidence of COMMONNAME available to editors, the better. Levivich [dubious – discuss] 18:00, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- Meh. Instead the whole idea that common name must take precedence over official name must be challeged. Using incorrect or illiterate terms just because lay people use them in daily life is stupid. Mikus (talk) 18:56, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- The place to make that challenge is at WT:AT, but it's complicated. Using the "official" name is not always best. Most would prefer "North Korea" over "Democratic People's Republic of Korea"; "aspirin" over "acetylsalicylic acid"; "FIFA" over "Fédération Internationale de Football Association". Levivich [dubious – discuss] 19:37, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- Not me. In all three cases I prefer the official name as the main title. Common name can still be used for redirects. Thanks for pointing in the right direction to challege the policy. So, do I just start a section and state my case? At the top of the page, or the bottom, or does not matter? Mikus (talk) 20:17, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- Bottom of the page, and I strongly suggest going through the archives and reading prior discussions on the matter. (I don't know what discussions are in the archives, or how long ago the last discussion was, but I'm sure it's been discussed more than once.) You'll want to address whatever the reasons were in the last discussion for having it be the way it is now. I have no idea what level of support you'll find, but I'm kind of curious to find out. Levivich [dubious – discuss] 20:24, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- Not me. In all three cases I prefer the official name as the main title. Common name can still be used for redirects. Thanks for pointing in the right direction to challege the policy. So, do I just start a section and state my case? At the top of the page, or the bottom, or does not matter? Mikus (talk) 20:17, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) If you want to challenge the Common Name policy, go to the naming policy pages and challenge it there. I will probably support such an effort. But until the policies are changed, I'm going to support them in renaming discussions, as will a lot of others. - BilCat (talk) 19:39, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- @BilCat: I told him the exact same in the RM above when it was still open, but I see this person, rather than truly challenging Wikipedia's guidelines, is only coming here to throw insults at them lol Impru20talk 19:48, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- And I said something similar at his ill-fated RM at Requested move 6 April 2020 almost 3 months ago. I do belive more emphasis snould be given to official names, especially in genuinely ambiguous situations such as Cassette tape, or in culturally sensitive situations such as with Kiev and Bangalore. But as a policy, it has to be changed at the policy level. - BilCat (talk) 20:18, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- @BilCat: I told him the exact same in the RM above when it was still open, but I see this person, rather than truly challenging Wikipedia's guidelines, is only coming here to throw insults at them lol Impru20talk 19:48, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- The place to make that challenge is at WT:AT, but it's complicated. Using the "official" name is not always best. Most would prefer "North Korea" over "Democratic People's Republic of Korea"; "aspirin" over "acetylsalicylic acid"; "FIFA" over "Fédération Internationale de Football Association". Levivich [dubious – discuss] 19:37, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
And people were worried that they'd have to wait two years! The new RM has started, officially or not. The new moratorium lasted barely 12 hours.
(Which, for anyone interested, is precisely why we this sort of exercise was disallowed in the previous moratorium.) Kahastok talk 19:21, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- Kahastok El_C's note and its update imply there is no moratorium until after the resolution of the suspended move request, and I suspect when it comes it will be a moratorium on page moves, not a discussion ban. —Michael Z. 2020-07-03 21:36 z
- If there's no moratorium, why not just start a new RM and be done with it?
- Kahastok El_C's note and its update imply there is no moratorium until after the resolution of the suspended move request, and I suspect when it comes it will be a moratorium on page moves, not a discussion ban. —Michael Z. 2020-07-03 21:36 z
- There is no substantive difference between a "moratorium on page moves" and a "discussion ban". Because if discussion on the article name isn't aiming to change the article name then there is no reason for it to be here. Per WP:NOTFORUM, the aim of talk pages is to improve the article, not for editors to engage in loud, interminable and pointless argument in a way that actively prevents article improvement. Kahastok talk 21:51, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- Why, Kahastok? Because the closing note stated that issue is going to ArbCom and there will be a new RM soon. And because they have since clarified further. By the way, if you see behaviour against the guidelines, please helpfully, politely, address the editors or deal with it according to our policies. Complaining out loud is not a path to article improvement either. —Michael Z. 2020-07-03 23:11 z
- You'll be pleased to know that when there were cases where editors were using this page as a forum for discussing the article name during the moratorium we had, I was perfectly happy to close those discussions as according to the consensus.
- Why, Kahastok? Because the closing note stated that issue is going to ArbCom and there will be a new RM soon. And because they have since clarified further. By the way, if you see behaviour against the guidelines, please helpfully, politely, address the editors or deal with it according to our policies. Complaining out loud is not a path to article improvement either. —Michael Z. 2020-07-03 23:11 z
- There is no substantive difference between a "moratorium on page moves" and a "discussion ban". Because if discussion on the article name isn't aiming to change the article name then there is no reason for it to be here. Per WP:NOTFORUM, the aim of talk pages is to improve the article, not for editors to engage in loud, interminable and pointless argument in a way that actively prevents article improvement. Kahastok talk 21:51, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- And incidentally, since you ask, please could you format the timestamp in your signature in accordance with WP:SIGPROB? Custom formats play havoc with the bots and are thus not allowed. Thanks. Kahastok talk 16:45, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
- Agree. Indeed, I suspect the only current purpose of that list of sources is to keep the RM alive in some form (specially when considering that (1) it's basically a copy-paste of the sources already posted in the closed RM; (2) that calling for people to keep adding sources to it will eventually lead to disputes over said sources and, eventually, to disputes over the same RM issues all over again; and (3) that it has been taken over by the RM's OP lmao). We should refrain from entering into the frame unless strictly needed. Nonetheless, I'd have wished that the people using this "assume good faith" argument now had raised it on those who canvassed the whole RM discussion, spoke about some pro-Russian Wikipedia conspiracy against Ukrainians or literally insulted the uninvolved admin who closed the RM discussion. This could have helped back then, but guess it's only useful when you complain about the behaviours in the "wrong" side of the discussion. Impru20talk 19:39, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
User:Levivich, if ArbCom takes up this issue and makes a decision it will most certainly "be decided". ArbCom is the final authority and your insistence that "consensus will prevail" is false. Indeed, "Consensus" is not a vote despite your attempts to make it so. But ArbCom will prevail if they take up this issue as we are asking. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 19:51, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- TaivoLinguist, Arbcom will not decide the title of this article. They don't have the authority to make that kind of content decision. It's right in WP:ARBPOL. They can decide the terms of the RFC, such as they have done many times before, but they can't decide the outcome. Levivich [dubious – discuss] 19:52, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- TaivoLinguist, also, what do you mean my attempts to make it a vote? Please strike that. Levivich [dubious – discuss] 19:53, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- Levivich They most certainly can make such decisions enforceable. Check out WP:MOSMAC2. That was an ArbCom decision and was definitive and did not require WP:CONSENSUS. I was involved in WP:ARBMAC2 and saw the process close up. It works and it's definitive. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 19:55, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- The Committee can do what they dare to do. El_C 19:57, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- WP:ARBPOL:
The Committee does not rule on content, but may propose means by which community resolution of a content dispute can be facilitated.
The Arbitration Committee is not going to decide if this article is titled "Kiev" or "Kyiv". Levivich [dubious – discuss] 20:04, 3 July 2020 (UTC)- Naming is not content, it is presentation and style.--Khajidha (talk) 20:23, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- What is this, the twilight zone? Levivich [dubious – discuss] 20:26, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- However ArbCom comes to its decisions (and it's up to the ArbCom members themselves how they work), their decisions are final. WP:MOSMAC, the direct result of WP:ARBMAC2, stood for about a decade until Greece and Macedonia settled their differences. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 20:31, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- I doubt the Committee will pick a side. But they may mandate a resolution that encompasses anything they really see fit otherwise. El_C 21:45, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- There was also a case on Ireland with similar procedure. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 00:38, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
- However ArbCom comes to its decisions (and it's up to the ArbCom members themselves how they work), their decisions are final. WP:MOSMAC, the direct result of WP:ARBMAC2, stood for about a decade until Greece and Macedonia settled their differences. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 20:31, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- What is this, the twilight zone? Levivich [dubious – discuss] 20:26, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- Naming is not content, it is presentation and style.--Khajidha (talk) 20:23, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- WP:ARBPOL:
- The Committee can do what they dare to do. El_C 19:57, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
- Levivich They most certainly can make such decisions enforceable. Check out WP:MOSMAC2. That was an ArbCom decision and was definitive and did not require WP:CONSENSUS. I was involved in WP:ARBMAC2 and saw the process close up. It works and it's definitive. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 19:55, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
Clarification
According to the sequence of events (that has been hopelessly mangled in the discussion) here is the sequence of upcoming events as I understand User:El_C has stated. He is the one in charge here right now.
- The issue will be submitted to ArbCom very soon (two of our editors are preparing the submission). This is a very similar situation to issues with the naming of North Macedonia prior to 2019 and the naming of articles related to Ireland/Republic of Ireland. In both of these situations there were disagreements that were unresolvable using normal procedures and much bad blood. The ArbCom process stabilized the issue. (With regard to the "official name" position that has been taken by some, "Republic of Ireland" is the official name of no country in the world. The official name of the country is simply "Ireland". But the article is at "Republic of Ireland" to avoid ambiguity with the article on the island as a whole, which is at "Ireland". Using the official name in all cases is not as simple as you might think.)
- The previous RM is dead because of corruption.
- There is a two-year moratorium on move requests in place either now or after the ArbCom decision. The original moratorium was to begin after a NEW RM, but since ArbCom will happen instead of a new RM, the moratorium is either a moot issue or will begin either now or after ArbCom. The last moratorium was a moratorium on both RMs and on name discussions. Everyone was simply sick and tired of the constant issue that meant nothing constructive was being done to improve the article. I will assume that the two-year moratorium will have the same restriction. (Obviously, if ArbCom decides to move the article to "Kyiv" or if a future RM as a result of ArbCom's decision moves it, then the issue of a moratorium is moot.)
- There will not be another RM because it is going to ArbCom.
- ArbCom will decide what ArbCom decides and we will move on from there.
--TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 03:09, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
- I could see the Committee mandating a reopening of the RM I have suspended or starting a new RM from scratch, under some conditions, of course. El_C 03:11, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
- Neat about Ireland.
- Not all of us assume that El_C’s moratorium “will have the same restriction,” which felt like a draconian régime of suppression of discussion enforced by a few editors and based on no clear consensus. I am glad to see disinterested parties intervene here. Let’s wait for ArbCom’s decision instead of overly “clarifying” the undetermined future. —Michael Z. 2020-07-04 13:54 z
FTR, I would point out that we are not just discussing 13 RMs in the lifetime of the page. The last moratorium came in directly after the October 2019 RM. At that time I worked out that that RM (26 October 2019) was the eleventh separate discussion on the article name started since the closure of the previous RM just over three months beforehand (16 July 2019). Many of those discussions lasted several days, and while most were started by new editors they tended to end up with the same editors making the same arguments over and over again.
The whole point behind the moratorium was that this continuous discussion of the article name had long since driven out all useful discussion, and was thus disrupting the article. There is no doubt that allowing such discussion to continue through any future moratorium would be equally disruptive. Kahastok talk 16:52, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
- Or maybe the moratorium was disrupting the article by preserving a title that has become an indefensible fossil. I appreciate your desire for quiet on this talk page, Kahastok, but I think you may have lost track of the need for us to respond to changing English usage in the rest of the world. I’m looking forward to the ArbCom process. —Michael Z. 2020-07-04 18:41 z
- The problem User:Mzajac is that English usage was not changing as fast as you and the other crusaders wanted so you wanted Wikipedia to force change rather than describe change. The moratorium actually allowed real changes to the article to be discussed and made without being drowned in the torrent of nationalistic fervor and invective that the name change advocates have always brought with them. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 19:29, 4 July 2020 (UTC)