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*'''Support''' per exhaustively-detailed nomination. On July 1, 2020, the time has finally arrived for Wikipedia to drop the outdated form "[[Kiev]]" and start using the 21st-century form "[[Kyiv]]". In the same manner that all the style guides and major publications in the English-speaking world depict [[Beijing]] rather than [[Peking]], [[Mumbai]] rather than [[Bombay]] or [[Kolkata]] rather than [[Calcutta]], so do these same guides and publications use [[Kyiv]] rather than [[Kiev]]. All of the [[WP:RELIABLE SOURCES]] are now on the side of change. —[[User:Roman Spinner|'''Roman Spinner''']] <small>[[User talk:Roman Spinner|(talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Roman Spinner|contribs)]]</small> 07:44, 1 July 2020 (UTC) |
*'''Support''' per exhaustively-detailed nomination. On July 1, 2020, the time has finally arrived for Wikipedia to drop the outdated form "[[Kiev]]" and start using the 21st-century form "[[Kyiv]]". In the same manner that all the style guides and major publications in the English-speaking world depict [[Beijing]] rather than [[Peking]], [[Mumbai]] rather than [[Bombay]] or [[Kolkata]] rather than [[Calcutta]], so do these same guides and publications use [[Kyiv]] rather than [[Kiev]]. All of the [[WP:RELIABLE SOURCES]] are now on the side of change. —[[User:Roman Spinner|'''Roman Spinner''']] <small>[[User talk:Roman Spinner|(talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Roman Spinner|contribs)]]</small> 07:44, 1 July 2020 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' The renaming suggestion is well sourced, highly detailed and convincing. It is also time that we are Wikipedians acknowledged that while our standards are meant to reflect common use, they also influence common use. I therefore find it far more important to rely on the types of sources used in the request to move than the google searches used in the opposition to it. [[User:Arianna the First|Arianna the First]] ([[User talk:Arianna the First|talk]]) 08:49, 1 July 2020 (UTC) |
*'''Support''' The renaming suggestion is well sourced, highly detailed and convincing. It is also time that we are Wikipedians acknowledged that while our standards are meant to reflect common use, they also influence common use. I therefore find it far more important to rely on the types of sources used in the request to move than the google searches used in the opposition to it. [[User:Arianna the First|Arianna the First]] ([[User talk:Arianna the First|talk]]) 08:49, 1 July 2020 (UTC) |
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* '''Oppose''' - Still no evidence presented that "Kyiv" is in common usage in English language publications worldwide. Wikipedia's naming conventions do not allow for renaming to [[WP:RGW|"Right Great Wrongs"]], but in view of the social changes now sweeping the US and other countries, perhaps it soon will. But until that actually happens, we still abide by Common Name rules. - [[User:BilCat|BilCat]] ([[User talk:BilCat|talk]]) 08:51, 1 July 2020 (UTC) |
Revision as of 08:51, 1 July 2020
Kyiv was a Geography and places good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||||||||
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Current status: Former good article nominee |
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Naming standards
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I have a question to fellow Wikipedia experts. I can see a large discussion on new Kyiv name and the arguments is based on popularity of the new name in the press and internet as the reason for name change. And yet if we look at for example Astana article - it was renamed to Nur-Sultan despite Astana was still obviously popular.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nur-Sultan
Astana (85 million Google results) vs Nur-Sultan (55 million Google results). https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GCEB_enNZ854NZ854&sxsrf=ALeKk01FklM13hJ6oQfLgIaJ26gtj2yNsg%3A1583697152269&ei=AE1lXrSKEJaf9QOP0IbgBQ&q=Nur-Sultan&oq=Nur-Sultan&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0i67l3j0l7.1334.1334..1534...0.2..0.180.180.0j1......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71.NKdKpuZeYeU&ved=0ahUKEwi0isXR04voAhWWT30KHQ-oAVwQ4dUDCAs&uact=5 https://www.google.com/search?q=Astana&rlz=1C1GCEB_enNZ854NZ854&oq=Astana&aqs=chrome..69i57.1822j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Why do we have double standards here?
Note: Its not a request on name change, but more a discussion on the Wikipedia common rules. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Odessit1989 (talk • contribs) 19:54, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
- Maybe because no one has heard of Astana (I haven't) so no one had it on their watchlist to oppose any changes. Kiev is extremely well known. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:50, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
Revert
User:Ymblanter, learn the wikipedia rules, please, although you should have done it long before. There is only one state language in Ukraine, so we don't need to add the translation into any other languages, except for Ukrainian. For instance, we don't add the name of Moscow in the Uzbek language --Devlet Geray (talk) 09:25, 22 March 2020 (UTC) p.s. I am not against Kiev as the name of the article --Devlet Geray (talk) 09:28, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
- There is no single policy of the English Wikipedia which says we should only give the name in the state language. Quite the opposite. Since you apparently are familiar with the policies much better than I am (thank you for kindly advising me to learn the policies), it must be trivially easy for you to find what exactly applies here.--Ymblanter (talk) 09:38, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
- Why doesn't new york have it's name in spanish then? Blindlynx (talk) 20:49, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- Because Spanish was never the state language of New York, while Russian was, indeed, the state language of Ukraine for a few centuries. Check out Lviv where Polish is included because, wait for it, Lviv was part of Poland for centuries. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 01:19, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
- So is it because of historical ownership or "languages a significant part of their population speak"? if it's the former why not have Munsee and Dutch in the article for New York? Blindlynx (talk) 13:01, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
- Because there is no longer a significant portion of the population of New York that speak either Dutch or Munsee. Don't even try to claim that there is not a significant portion of the population of Kyiv that speaks Russian. So Russian and Polish (and Hungarian in Transcarpathia) are former state languages AND still have significant portions of the population that speak them in those cities (I've spoken Hungarian in Uzhhorod and seen the Polish flags around Lviv). --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 15:02, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
- You saying Lviv has a significant portion of the population that still speaks Latin? or Gdańsk one that speaks German?Blindlynx (talk) 17:13, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
- You are straying into silliness now. The bottom line is that you can find examples of anything in Wikipedia, that's why we always remember WP:OTHERSTUFF. If you're trying to do something unique, there is a problem, but if what you are doing is done elsewhere then that's probably OK. But ultimately each article is individual and bound by WP:CONSENSUS at that article. You don't have any consensus here for your POV. You're just pushing a Ukrainian-only agenda that you will find no support for among the majority of English-speaking editors who work on the English Wikipedia. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 19:27, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
- I'm not pushing for anything, i'm not the one who changed it. I'm just trying to understand what the justification for leaving out Polish, or Lithuanian or whatever here is. It's infuriating that everything is so inconsistently applied! Lviv gets a pile or languages (including Russian) and honestly i think that's probably what should happen here too but i'm not going to change it without figuring out what it should be, given how heating this page always gets.Blindlynx (talk) 19:59, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
- "just trying to understand" is pretty simple. Every page is different until you can convince a majority of the editors of a given page that it isn't. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 00:01, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- I'm not pushing for anything, i'm not the one who changed it. I'm just trying to understand what the justification for leaving out Polish, or Lithuanian or whatever here is. It's infuriating that everything is so inconsistently applied! Lviv gets a pile or languages (including Russian) and honestly i think that's probably what should happen here too but i'm not going to change it without figuring out what it should be, given how heating this page always gets.Blindlynx (talk) 19:59, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
- You are straying into silliness now. The bottom line is that you can find examples of anything in Wikipedia, that's why we always remember WP:OTHERSTUFF. If you're trying to do something unique, there is a problem, but if what you are doing is done elsewhere then that's probably OK. But ultimately each article is individual and bound by WP:CONSENSUS at that article. You don't have any consensus here for your POV. You're just pushing a Ukrainian-only agenda that you will find no support for among the majority of English-speaking editors who work on the English Wikipedia. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 19:27, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
- You saying Lviv has a significant portion of the population that still speaks Latin? or Gdańsk one that speaks German?Blindlynx (talk) 17:13, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
- Because there is no longer a significant portion of the population of New York that speak either Dutch or Munsee. Don't even try to claim that there is not a significant portion of the population of Kyiv that speaks Russian. So Russian and Polish (and Hungarian in Transcarpathia) are former state languages AND still have significant portions of the population that speak them in those cities (I've spoken Hungarian in Uzhhorod and seen the Polish flags around Lviv). --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 15:02, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
- So is it because of historical ownership or "languages a significant part of their population speak"? if it's the former why not have Munsee and Dutch in the article for New York? Blindlynx (talk) 13:01, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
- Because Spanish was never the state language of New York, while Russian was, indeed, the state language of Ukraine for a few centuries. Check out Lviv where Polish is included because, wait for it, Lviv was part of Poland for centuries. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 01:19, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
- Why doesn't new york have it's name in spanish then? Blindlynx (talk) 20:49, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- The actual style guideline is at MOS:FORLANG. The other why’s mentioned above are not authoritative. —Michael Z. 2020-05-16 00:40 z
- I find it humorous that someone actually quotes a manual of style entry that includes the word "typically". That's not a hard and fast rule because you can find multiple exceptions to it no matter what region of the world you look at. In other words, "typically" means "on the average", not "must". Editors ignore MOS:FORLANG and WP:CONSENSUS overrides it. It works like a guideline, not as a hard and fast policy. Don't try to wikilawyer it, local consensus will always trump it. Look at the top of the page for MOS:FORLANG and you will see the keyword "guideline" and not "policy". Michael Z is wrong, the MOS is not authoritative over consensus because it's just a guideline. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 07:14, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- Nice one. Can you quote the parts that were “wrong” and “wikilawyering”? Because I’m not seeing them. You know, in what I wrote, not in your slagging me. —Michael Z. 2020-05-16 16:43 z 16:43, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- Tht's easy. You were wrong in your implication that discussion is over because you posted a link to a "guideline" as if it were authoritative and consensus was not. Insisting that a guideline is more authoritative than local consensus is wikilawyering. Whether you were "insisting" or not is open to interpretation, but in the context of the discussion when you flatly said that only your post is authoritative was over-the-top wikilawyering and was wrong because a consensus always trumps a guideline. I haven't even mentioned that the wording of the guideline is open to local interpretation and doesn't lay down a hard and fast rule. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 19:17, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- Nice one. Can you quote the parts that were “wrong” and “wikilawyering”? Because I’m not seeing them. You know, in what I wrote, not in your slagging me. —Michael Z. 2020-05-16 16:43 z 16:43, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 June 2020
Its population in July 2015 was 2,887,974[1] (though higher estimated numbers have been cited in the press),[12] making Kiev the sixth-most populous city in Europe.
This needs to be changed to seventh-most populous city in Europe. Ianmci (talk) 05:37, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
This needs to be changed to seventh-most populous city in Europe Ianmci (talk) 05:38, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
Requested move 1 July 2020
Since October 2019 when the ban/moratorium was established, the following updates have happened (per Atlantic Council's article from October 21, 2019 entitled Kyiv not Kiev: Why spelling matters in Ukraine’s quest for an independent identity, "A number of global heavyweights have recently adopted the Ukrainian-language derived 'Kyiv' as their official spelling for the country’s capital city, replacing the Russian-rooted 'Kiev.'). Specifically, a couple of changes have happened: 1) all major English publications that used their own stylebook have made updates to their styleguides and now use Kyiv spelling, 2) all major English publications that use standard stylebooks (e.g., Associated Press Stylebook or Canadian Press Stylebook) are now following recent updates in those styleguides and are now using Kyiv, 3) IATA has switched to Kyiv and therefore all international airports have updated their English spelling to Kyiv, 4) BGN has switched to Kyiv and, therefore, all major geographical bodies followed suite and are now using Kyiv and, lastly, 5) The Library of Congress has switched to Kyiv and, therefore, all major library organizations followed suite and are now using Kyiv.
Below is the chronological list of those major updates:
- bne IntelliNews: January 2006. Official quote from bne IntelliNews: "bne IntelliNews has been using Kyiv since it was founded in 2006" (source: https://www.intellinews.com/more-publications-switch-from-kiev-to-kyiv-and-ignore-the-chicken-thing-166136/?source=ukraine ; archived-source: http://archive.is/ZQEHD)
- CBC: January 2011 (previously Kyiv was also used by CBC from 1999 to 2004). Official quote from CBC: "CBC News adopted the spelling Kyiv for the city in 2011". (source: https://www.cbc.ca/news2/indepth/words/kiev-or-kyiv.html , archived-source:
- Canadian Press: January 2018. Official quote from the Canadian Press Stylebook 18th edition: "The Canadian Press stylebook adopts the Ukrainian rather than the Russian spelling of Ukrainian capital: Kyiv" source: https://www.thecanadianpress.com/writing-guides/the-canadian-press-stylebook/
- Toronto Star: January 2018. Official quote from the Toronto Star: "We [at Toronto Star] follow The Canadian Press style (which adopts the Ukrainian rather than the Russian spelling). It’s Kyiv." source: https://www.thestar.com/trust/2018/01/26/the-stars-style-committee-on-the-importance-of-language.html ; archived-source: http://archive.is/d50oE
- The Guardian, 13 February 2019, Official quote from Reuters: "From February 13 the capital of Ukraine will be written as Kyiv at The Guardian". (source @The Guardian styleguide: https://www.theguardian.com/guardian-observer-style-guide-k ; archived-source @The Guardian styleguide: http://archive.is/r5OpE
- The Calvert Journal 2 April, 2019 Official quote from The Calvert Journal: "We have decided the time is right to change to Kyiv" (source: https://www.calvertjournal.com/articles/show/11100/kiev-kyiv-what-to-call-ukrainian-capital , archived-source: http://archive.is/hq4xW
- BGN (regulates what spelling is used for geographic names in maps) June 17, 2019. Official quote from BGN: "At its 398th meeting on June 11, 2019, the Foreign Names Committee of the United States Board on Geographic Names (BGN) voted unanimously to retire the spelling “Kiev” as a BGN Conventional name for the capital of Ukraine. The spelling “Kyiv” has been the BGN Approved name since 2006, and is now the only name available for standard use within the United States (U.S.) Government, per the authority of the BGN (source on BGN: http://geonames.nga.mil/gns/html/PDFDocs/BGNStatement_Kyiv.pdf, archived-source: http://archive.is/pLZlO
- Associated Press: 14 August, 2019. Official quote from AP: "We are making a significant change in our style for the Ukrainian capital city Kiev. It will henceforth be written in text, captions and datelines as Kyiv." (source on AP: https://blog.ap.org/announcements/an-update-on-ap-style-on-kyiv , archived-source: http://archive.is/ONA0S
- The Library of Congress: 12 September, 2019. Official quote from LOC: "In accordance with LC-PCC PS for 16.2.2.5, we have applied the ALA/LC Romanization Table for Ukrainian in the new authorized access point rather than using a form that reflects another romanization scheme. This form is “Kyïv (Ukraine)." (source on lOC (announcement): https://listserv.loc.gov/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1909&L=PCCLIST&P=20135, archived-source: http://archive.is/XlarP ; source on LOC (entry): http://id.loc.gov/authorities/names/n81022031.html , archived-source: http://archive.is/BzK0T
- NPR: September 23, 2019. Official quote from NPR: "Guidance: The Capital Of Ukraine Is Spelled 'Kyiv'" (source on NPR: https://www.npr.org/sections/memmos/2019/09/23/763509886/guidance-the-capital-of-ukraine-is-spelled-kyiv, archived-source: http://archive.is/Lx7Ch
- The Wall Street Journal: October 3, 2019. Official quote from WSJ: "After careful consideration, we have joined Associated Press and Webster’s New World College Dictionary (5th) in using the spelling Kyiv for the capital of Ukraine" (source on WSJ: https://blogs.wsj.com/styleandsubstance/2019/10/03/vol-32-no-9-kyiv/, archived-source: http://archive.is/wip/yk3Eh
- The Globe and Mail: October 10, 2019. Official quote from The Globe and Mail: "The Globe is changing its style on the capital of Ukraine from the Russian-derived "Kiev" to "Kyiv," the transliteration the Ukrainian government uses" (source The Globe and Mail's correspondent Adrian Morrow: https://twitter.com/adrianmorrow/status/1182340357255831552, archived-source: http://archive.is/cLGGZ
- BBC: October 14, 2019. Official quote from BBC: "From today, BBC News will be changing its spelling of the Ukrainian capital from #Kiev to #Kyiv, bringing us in line with the many international organisations, government agencies, international aviation industry members and media who’ve adopted this spelling." (source on BBC News Press Team @Twitter: https://twitter.com/bbcnewspr/status/1183707458642108416, archive-source: http://archive.is/PGhmq; source on BBC News Ukrainian: https://www.bbc.com/ukrainian/news-49999939 , archived-source: http://archive.is/ap1vS ; source on BBC Style Guide: https://www.bbc.co.uk/academy/en/articles/art20130702112133577, archived-source: http://archive.vn/SD07M
- The Washington Post: October 2019. Official quote from TWP: "The Washington Post changes its style guide for the capital of Ukraine, which henceforth will be Kyiv, and not Kiev. This change is effective immediately. These changes are in accordance with the way Ukrainian capital is spelled by Ukrainian institutions, as well by by other media organizations." (source from WP's correspondent Adam Taylor's Twitter: https://twitter.com/mradamtaylor/status/1184470206925676544 , archived-source from WP's correspondent Adam Taylor's Twitter: http://archive.is/yFzVy; source on Voice of America: https://ukrainian.voanews.com/a/kyiv-not-kiev/5126392.html, source-archived: http://archive.is/nL48F ; source on The Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/starting-in-the-1970s-womens-first-names-were-included-in-post-references/2019/11/23/73dc1eb2-0d59-11ea-bd9d-c628fd48b3a0_story.html , archived-source: http://archive.is/ZrUos )
- The Economist, October, 29 2019. Official quote from The Economist: "Kyiv spelling is now used at The Economist for Ukraine's capital" (source news about this on Ukrinform: https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-society/2808601-the-economist-starts-using-kyiv-instead-of-kiev.html , archived-source: http://archive.is/ka7Lv
- Financial Times, October, 29 2019. Official quote from Financial Times: "Kyiv spelling is now used at Financial Times for Ukraine's capital" (source news about this on Ukrinform: https://www.ukrinform.ua/rubric-kyiv/2808219-financial-times-vidteper-pisatime-kyiv-zamist-kiev.html , archived-source: http://archive.is/wip/kh5YL
- IATA (regulates what spelling is used for geographic names in airports): October, 2019. (source: list of all cities worldwide at iata.org: https://www.iata.org/contentassets/5989fc2df9824de3826cccfd279f9409/slot-alleviation-status-ns20-covid19.pdf )
- New York Times: November 18, 2019. Official quote from New York Times: "Note: Days after this article was published, The New York Times changed its style of spelling for the capital of Ukraine to Kyiv, reflecting the transliteration from Ukrainian, rather than Russian. The change is reflected in articles published after Nov. 18. " (source from NYT's correspondent Andrew E. Kramer's Twitter: https://twitter.com/AndrewKramerNYT/status/1196496095184084997, archived-source from NYT's correspondent Andrew E. Kramer's Twitter: http://archive.is/wip/3Xqgm; source: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/13/us/politics/kiev-pronunciation.html , archived-source: http://archive.is/KjrWw
- BuzzFeed: December 31, 2019. Official quote from BuzzFeed: "We updated our style to “Kyiv” to refer to Ukraine’s capital city. The “Kiev” spelling is transliterated from the Russian language, while "Kyiv" is from Ukrainian." (source on BuzzFeed Styleguide @Twitter: https://twitter.com/styleguide/status/1212079459282685954 , archived-source: http://archive.is/wip/0I4rB ; BuzzFeed Styleguide: https://www.buzzfeed.com/emmyf/buzzfeed-style-guide ; archived-source BuzzFeed Styleguide: http://archive.is/G2Y13
- Reuters, June 12, 2020. Official quote from Reuters: "From June 15 the capital of Ukraine will be written as Kyiv at @Reuters". (source Reuters' journalist Tommy Lund @Twitter: https://twitter.com/tommylundn/status/1271344841243471872, archived-source: http://archive.is/UqgwX; source @Reuters styleguide: http://handbook.reuters.com/index.php?title=K#Kyiv.2C_not_Kiev ; archived-source @Reuters styleguide: http://archive.is/QZyqw
- Facebook, June 26, 2020. Official quote from Facebook: "After reviewing, we switched to using the page “Kyiv” to represent this region". (source: Minister of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine (MFA of Ukraine) Dmytro Kuleba and MFA of Ukraine page CorrectUA, archived-source: http://archive.is/XKXoz
--73.75.115.5 (talk) 04:22, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- Keep This was completely predictable, both in terms of its timing, but also in terms of its failure to address common usage. It lists a variety of style guides, but utterly fails to indicate whether or not those style guides have had any influence on actual usage, which is the measurement that Wikipedia uses to gauge "common usage". You have to prove that usage has changed. You don't prove usage by simply listing all the people who say "you should do this". You have to actually show that English speakers are paying attention to the "experts" and changing their usage. You've proven nothing other than the "experts" are talking about changing. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 06:15, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- Let's test this new awareness of "Kyiv" out with the simplest of metrics, a Google search.
- Kiev -Kyiv -chicken (in the last month): 6.9 million
- Kyiv -Kiev -Dynamo (in the last month): 264 thousand
- It doesn't seem that actual usage has changed much. Reuters changed officially changed spelling on the 12th, but here are 4560 results of "Kiev -Kyiv -chicken Reuters" just in the last week.
- You have to prove your point with actual usage not dictates from "on high". --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 06:32, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- So let's now fine-tune the example from Reuters to just News using the same search criteria for the last week:
- "Kiev -Kyiv -chicken Reuters" (last week, News): 894 results
- "Kyiv -Kiev -Dynamo Reuters" (last week, News): 564 results
- It seems that actual usage at Reuters is still about 1.5 to 1 in favor of "Kiev" in the News department.
- At the AP the situation isn't much different.
- "Kiev -Kyiv -chicken AP" (last week, News): 1380 results
- "Kyiv -Kiev -Dynamo AP" (last week, News): 752 results
- The same is true if I search for all News over the last week.
- "Kiev -Kyiv -chicken" (last week, News): 24,700 results
- Kyiv -Kiev -chicken" (last week, News): 14,100 results
- So nothing has changed in terms of actual usage in the last six months. In the news departments of the English-speaking world usage of "Kiev" over "Kyiv" is still about 2 to 1 even though the style guides are telling them to use "Kyiv". --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 06:44, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- So let's now fine-tune the example from Reuters to just News using the same search criteria for the last week:
- Let's test this new awareness of "Kyiv" out with the simplest of metrics, a Google search.
- Keep - so far nothing to change my mind from common usage. And as said above, even though some sources have officially changed to Kyiv, they still keep on using Kiev. That's not too official. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:11, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- Support per exhaustively-detailed nomination. On July 1, 2020, the time has finally arrived for Wikipedia to drop the outdated form "Kiev" and start using the 21st-century form "Kyiv". In the same manner that all the style guides and major publications in the English-speaking world depict Beijing rather than Peking, Mumbai rather than Bombay or Kolkata rather than Calcutta, so do these same guides and publications use Kyiv rather than Kiev. All of the WP:RELIABLE SOURCES are now on the side of change. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 07:44, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- Support The renaming suggestion is well sourced, highly detailed and convincing. It is also time that we are Wikipedians acknowledged that while our standards are meant to reflect common use, they also influence common use. I therefore find it far more important to rely on the types of sources used in the request to move than the google searches used in the opposition to it. Arianna the First (talk) 08:49, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose - Still no evidence presented that "Kyiv" is in common usage in English language publications worldwide. Wikipedia's naming conventions do not allow for renaming to "Right Great Wrongs", but in view of the social changes now sweeping the US and other countries, perhaps it soon will. But until that actually happens, we still abide by Common Name rules. - BilCat (talk) 08:51, 1 July 2020 (UTC)