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::A cite about it meaning a common noun "mountain" or "mountains" in context with the original pantheon. Without any evidence to the contrary it is reasonable to assume they called their sacred mountain "Kharsag" (singular) at this time. [[User:Paul Bedson|Paul Bedson]] ([[User talk:Paul Bedson|talk]]) 19:47, 22 April 2010 (UTC) |
::A cite about it meaning a common noun "mountain" or "mountains" in context with the original pantheon. Without any evidence to the contrary it is reasonable to assume they called their sacred mountain "Kharsag" (singular) at this time. [[User:Paul Bedson|Paul Bedson]] ([[User talk:Paul Bedson|talk]]) 19:47, 22 April 2010 (UTC) |
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::You need a cite that says that the word isn't about the mythological mountain, as our sources say it is. You haven't presented any other sources that say otherwise so far. <font color="silver">[[User:Silver seren|Silver]]</font><font color="blue">[[User talk:Silver seren|seren]]</font><sup>[[Special:Contributions/Silver seren|C]]</sup> 19:48, 22 April 2010 (UTC) |
::You need a cite that says that the word isn't about the mythological mountain, as our sources say it is. You haven't presented any other sources that say otherwise so far. <font color="silver">[[User:Silver seren|Silver]]</font><font color="blue">[[User talk:Silver seren|seren]]</font><sup>[[Special:Contributions/Silver seren|C]]</sup> 19:48, 22 April 2010 (UTC) |
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:::That's backwards. We only have an assertion that Barton is talking about "the mythological mountain"; Barton doesn't provide any commentary to that effect, and we don't have any secondary sources saying it. I've been trying to figure out if there ''are'' any secondary sources on this.The text that Barton translates, which has been referred to here as the "Oldest Religious Text From Babylonia", is in the Penn Museum, [http://cdli.ucla.edu/search/result.pt?id_text=P222183&start=0&result_format=single&-op_id_text=eq&size=100 CBS 08383]. At least, I think that's right; one of the difficulties in dealing with this article is figuring out exactly which ancient texts we're talking about, so we can try to track down how later translators have dealt with them and so we can find out how people have interpreted them. Since Barton says that "it cannot be too strongly emphasized that the interpretation offered below is purely tentative," it's important to see how later scholars have dealt with the text. This text is also known as the Barton Cylinder, and a newer edition of the text was apparently published in B. Alster and Aage Westenholz in ''Acta Sumerologica'' 16 (1994) 15–46. Sadly, I don't have access to this. However, there are a few pages on the cylinder in Jeremy Black, "The Sumerians in their landscape," in ''Riches hidden in secret places: ancient Near Eastern studies in memory of Thorkild Jacobsen'', eds. Jacobsen and Abusch, pp. 44-45. Unfortunately, Black only translates a small portion of the text and not the part that's been used to claim that "Kharsag" is a placename. |
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:::Black's comments on another text, ''The Debate between Sheep and Grain'', are interesting. An important location in this text is "the ''hursag'' (hill) of Heaven-and-Earth"—neither a flat plain or a mountain, but a hilly landscape..." (p. 45) Note that "hill" isn't capitalized—it's not part of a proper name. And this "hill of Heaven-and-Earth", as the name implies, refers to the state of the universe before the separation of heaven and earth—it's where everything in existence is situated. Upon the "hill of Heaven-and-Earth" is located a place Black translates as the Holy Mound (the word translated as "mound" is ''dul''). This is where the Anuna gods are born and the other gods live prior to the separation of heaven and earth. |
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:::Here's something I found particularly interesting: "Now the terms ''hursag'' 'hill' and ''dul'' 'mound' are known from administrative field plans dating from the Third Dynasty of Ur, which conveniently demonstrate the use of these terms as part of the everyday vocabulary of vernacular speech, not resistricted to a purely literary lexicon. The plans use ''hursag'' for the 'hilly' parts of fields, which are difficult to cultivate (so that ''hursag'' can be translated as 'hill(s)')..." (p. 46) So here's a modern scholar, writing specifically about Sumerian ideas of landscape, who doesn't say that "Kharsag" is the mountain of the gods, and who doesn't say that it's a proper noun at all. [[User:Akhilleus|--Akhilleus]] ([[User talk:Akhilleus|talk]]) 20:03, 22 April 2010 (UTC) |
Revision as of 20:03, 22 April 2010
Deletion discussion
Delete. Article nominated for speedy deletion, for this reason:
- The Page is a essentialy recreation of a page (Kharsag Epics) that was merged per a deletion discussion: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kharsag Epics >> "User:Black Kite: Closing debate, result was merge to Christian O'Brien"
And these additional reasons:
- The author of the article claims in the introduction that this article is about the word Kharsag, however then the topic turns to it's geography?
- Complete archaeology & geography sections are unsourced.
- The quote "amongst others" is meaning who exactly? Christian O'Brien is the only one connecting the Sumerian texts to the Books of Enoch and Genesis. The article again presents a fringe view as true science to the unware reader(s).
- The literature section talks about an quite unknown author fr:Anton Parks, who does only publish books in French language (not notable enough). The French Wiki even shows this author writes about "l’Ufologie", and his other works are about the hollow Earth and the humanoid reptiles. These works are mere derratives of O'Brien's original book ("crossbreeding"). The same goes for the external link to goldenageproject.org.uk, a known 'alternative history' website, stating on it's frontpage: "Featured and central to this site are the mind stretching books by Christian and Barbara Joy O'Brien". All together this makes it very dubious to include these works as a source.
- Wikipedia:Conflict of interest: the page creator User:Paul_Bedson apprears to have a obsession getting his own views on Wikipedia, as this is his only 'contribution' on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Paul_Bedson
Keep. This should not be a speedy deletion. The substatial section of the article has inline citations. Whilst the archaeology & geography sections are unsourced as of 1 April 2010, they are stub (one sentence sections).
I cannot see any merit in deleting this article. Since the deletion is contested by uninvolved parties, any deletion should be by a deletion discussion, not a speedy deletion.--20.133.0.13 (talk) 11:16, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
- So did the old article. This one has links to a self-published novel and some stuff by a UFOlogist/Sitchin follower, the same links that were in the old article. Dougweller (talk) 12:11, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
Keep. I have completely revised the Kharsag text and backed it up with a large number of noteable non-fringe cites and defined exactly why this is noteable and fully warrants a wikipedia page. I am happy to remove non-notable sources or unsourced parts, or leave them on the O'Brien page with the Kharsag Epics. The location as a Sumerian word or part of a Sumerian phrase is something that really must qualify for a mention and I would welcome and be grateful for any assistance restoring this page and getting it's terminology improved where necessary. Paul Bedson (talk) 22:51, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
Support proposed merge
I just noticed a suggestion to merge with Kur. Now that I look at it, that might be the best avenue to proceed. What we have now is basically a subsection anyway. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 15:01, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
Citation needed!
This article suffers from severe WP:SYNTH problems, starting from the problematic assertion that Kharsag, Hursag, and a host of other phrases refer to a particular place. There was one citation in the middle of the first sentence, which I removed in this edit; the source is Miscellaneous Babylonian Inscriptions by George A. Barton, 1918, Yale University Press, P. 4. Now, finding p. 4 in this text is not easy, but when I looked at what I think is p. 4, I see nothing about the word "Kharsag". Moreover, searching the text for "Hursag", "Hur-sag", "Khar-sag", "Imkharsag", "E-Kharsag", "E-kharsag-gal-kurkurra", "E-kharsag-kurkurra", "Kharsag-kzurcktra" gives no results, so this text cannot be used to support the assertion of the first sentence that all these words refer to the same place. Can anyone provide such a source, and sources that support the other points in the first paragraph? --Akhilleus (talk) 03:10, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- Well, thank you, but these references do not support the article text.
- A self-published webpage that cites Graham Hancock and Zecharia Sitchin [1] is not a reliable source. I'm removing this.
- The first reference, "Journal of the American Oriental Society" - Google Books, while old (1901), is a reliable source—but it doesn't say what the article's text says; in fact, it contradicts it. The reference says that Kharsag-kurkura was the mountain where men and the gods were believed to have been created, and E-kur is a separate locale. Searches for "hur-sag", etc., get no results in this text. So I'm removing this as well. --Akhilleus (talk)
- Wow, how did I miss that [2] cites Velikovsky? And of course, I should have been on the lookout for citations to Christian O'Brien... --Akhilleus (talk) 03:33, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- I've added some other ones and applied the Journal in another sentence that i've rewritten. Why were you searching for "Hur-sag", when it clearly states it's talking about Kharsag? There are multiple ways of naming it, you have to try all of them when searching. SilverserenC 03:45, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- I said "hur-sag", etc. I tried searching for the other phrases and didn't find them. And my basic point, Silver, is that there *aren't* "multiple ways of naming it." None of the sources you've provided support that claim. Perhaps it's not clear what I'm asking for: a source that explicitly says each word or phrase listed in the first sentence of the article refers to the same place. (Furthermore, it needs to say that "Kharsag" is a proper name that serves as a toponym, not a common noun.) None of the references you've supplied do that.
- Also, you've cited another paper [3] by Emilio Spedicato, the person who here cited Velikovsky, O'Brien, Graham Hancock, and Sitchin. We should not be using this as a source for anything but fringe material (on the other hand, so far this article is nothing but fringe material). I also fail to see how this source supports the article text: "The Anunnaki, the original god-like beings in Sumerian history" (this probably doesn't need a citation anyway).
- You've reinserted the 1901 JAOS article, this time to support the text 'It was known as Kharsag, or Kursag, with "Kur" meaning "mountain" and "sag" being translated somewhat akin to "home" or "house".' Please explain how the linked page [4] supports the article text—it says nothing about where the gods decided to settle (only where they were created), does not say that the place was known as Kharsag, but as Kharsag-kurkura, and says nothing about "kur" meaning "mountain" and "sag" meaning home or house. The JAOS article says that "E-kur" means "mountain house", but "E-kur" is obviously not the same word as "Kharsag", right? --Akhilleus (talk) 04:01, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- See, the problem we have is that the mountain itself is referred to by a phrase. Different translators can translate this phrase into English in a myriad of ways, which is why there are so many spellings and shortenings. Sumerian is not a fun language to translate if you're looking for consistency. I'm using the JAOS article to refer to the home or house portion. And "E-kur" is a shortening, obviously, of the phrase E-kharsag-gal-kurkurra. Like I said, some translators might just want to call it Kharsag, others Kursag, since there is barely any difference between them. Others, like JAOS, will shorten it to E-kur, but they all mean the same thing. Besides, we shouldn't be focusing on the specific namings, but on whether they're all talking about the same thing. They are, they are speaking about the mountain home of the gods. Then, do they give notability to this fact? Yes, they do. The rest is just semantics that can be figured out later. SilverserenC 04:09, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- No, the problem we have is that you, along with whoever wrote the article have assumed that the mountain is referred to by all these different words/phrases. We need a source that explicitly says this; this is a basic matter of WP:V and WP:OR. You'll have to forgive me, but I doubt you know anything about translating Sumerian, and that you're in no position to say anything like '"E-kur" is a shortening, obviously, of the phrase E-kharsag-gal-kurkurra.' If I'm wrong, I suppose you could supply a source that says exactly this, right? --Akhilleus (talk) 04:13, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- We have sources that are referring to different names, correct? And they are all referring to a mythological mountain of the gods from Sumerian religion, right? Then is it really WP:SYNTH to say that they are referring to the same thing and this things has differently translated names? SilverserenC 04:16, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- No, they are not "all referring to a mythological mountain of the gods". The 1901 JAOS article says that that Kharsag-kurkura and E-kur are different places. BTW, the article refers to Babylonian temples, and so is presumably using Akkadian words; I'm afraid I don't know either language, but if we're going to entertain quasi-philological arguments like '"E-kur" is a shortening, obviously, of the phrase E-kharsag-gal-kurkurra,' we should stop sloppily saying all of this is Sumerian. Now, one language I know very well is English, and if I pick up Stephanie Dalley's Myths from Mesopotamia (Oxford 1989), which translates several Akkadian texts into English, along with some nice explanatory notes, I turn to the glossary in the back and find that Ekur means 'mountain house', and refers to the "temple of Ellil in Nippur, where Ninurta was born." In other words, a specific structure, in a particular city (Nippur), not some mythical cosmic mountain. So let's not conflate Ekur and Kharsag-kurkura, hm? --Akhilleus (talk) 04:41, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- Ah, sorry, Kharsag-kurkura, you're right. Whoops, I mixed them up. But this is all kind of peripheral. Do the sources establish notability for the subject, the subject being the mythological mountain where the gods lived in Sumerian mythology? Do they verify it exists? If so, then what's the problem with keeping the article? Any issues with naming or specific wording of the article has nothing to do with keeping it, but more to do with accurately representing the sources. SilverserenC 04:50, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- You're still assuming that all of these sources relate to a single subject. If hursag, kharsag, e-kharsag, kharsag-kurkura, and so on refer to different things, the sources do not establish notability for this subject (whatever that might be)—they related to different things. --Akhilleus (talk) 16:41, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- Ah, sorry, Kharsag-kurkura, you're right. Whoops, I mixed them up. But this is all kind of peripheral. Do the sources establish notability for the subject, the subject being the mythological mountain where the gods lived in Sumerian mythology? Do they verify it exists? If so, then what's the problem with keeping the article? Any issues with naming or specific wording of the article has nothing to do with keeping it, but more to do with accurately representing the sources. SilverserenC 04:50, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- No, they are not "all referring to a mythological mountain of the gods". The 1901 JAOS article says that that Kharsag-kurkura and E-kur are different places. BTW, the article refers to Babylonian temples, and so is presumably using Akkadian words; I'm afraid I don't know either language, but if we're going to entertain quasi-philological arguments like '"E-kur" is a shortening, obviously, of the phrase E-kharsag-gal-kurkurra,' we should stop sloppily saying all of this is Sumerian. Now, one language I know very well is English, and if I pick up Stephanie Dalley's Myths from Mesopotamia (Oxford 1989), which translates several Akkadian texts into English, along with some nice explanatory notes, I turn to the glossary in the back and find that Ekur means 'mountain house', and refers to the "temple of Ellil in Nippur, where Ninurta was born." In other words, a specific structure, in a particular city (Nippur), not some mythical cosmic mountain. So let's not conflate Ekur and Kharsag-kurkura, hm? --Akhilleus (talk) 04:41, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- We have sources that are referring to different names, correct? And they are all referring to a mythological mountain of the gods from Sumerian religion, right? Then is it really WP:SYNTH to say that they are referring to the same thing and this things has differently translated names? SilverserenC 04:16, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- No, the problem we have is that you, along with whoever wrote the article have assumed that the mountain is referred to by all these different words/phrases. We need a source that explicitly says this; this is a basic matter of WP:V and WP:OR. You'll have to forgive me, but I doubt you know anything about translating Sumerian, and that you're in no position to say anything like '"E-kur" is a shortening, obviously, of the phrase E-kharsag-gal-kurkurra.' If I'm wrong, I suppose you could supply a source that says exactly this, right? --Akhilleus (talk) 04:13, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- See, the problem we have is that the mountain itself is referred to by a phrase. Different translators can translate this phrase into English in a myriad of ways, which is why there are so many spellings and shortenings. Sumerian is not a fun language to translate if you're looking for consistency. I'm using the JAOS article to refer to the home or house portion. And "E-kur" is a shortening, obviously, of the phrase E-kharsag-gal-kurkurra. Like I said, some translators might just want to call it Kharsag, others Kursag, since there is barely any difference between them. Others, like JAOS, will shorten it to E-kur, but they all mean the same thing. Besides, we shouldn't be focusing on the specific namings, but on whether they're all talking about the same thing. They are, they are speaking about the mountain home of the gods. Then, do they give notability to this fact? Yes, they do. The rest is just semantics that can be figured out later. SilverserenC 04:09, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- I've added some other ones and applied the Journal in another sentence that i've rewritten. Why were you searching for "Hur-sag", when it clearly states it's talking about Kharsag? There are multiple ways of naming it, you have to try all of them when searching. SilverserenC 03:45, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- Wow, how did I miss that [2] cites Velikovsky? And of course, I should have been on the lookout for citations to Christian O'Brien... --Akhilleus (talk) 03:33, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- And we have no reliable sources saying that they relate to a single subject, which is why we are saying that this article is based on original research and should be deleted. It violates one of our fundamental policies. Dougweller (talk) 16:51, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry I didn't spot this earlier. The cite you need is in the first section of the "Oldest Religious Text From Babylonia", is it not page 4? Phonetic translation is as follows:
3'. gat a^ag d en-lil 4'. gar-sag mu-gub
translated
the holy sceptre of Enlil establish Kharsag;
also
i^'.birnin- -bi udu gar-sag-ga
translated
15'. The cattle of his lady, the sheep of Kharsag,
also
25. gar-sag en-te-en-ra mu-na-te
translated
25. Kharsag for the cold constructed furnace,
also
9. E-gar-sag-gal su-lug-ga tum-ma nam-ma-ni ni- pab
translated
9. Ekharsaggal is devoted to ceremonies; its fate he established;
and lastly
30. gar-sag-da sar-a dingir-da sig-
translated
30. In Kharsag the garden of the gods were green ....
Paul Bedson (talk) 00:00, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
Kharsag-kzurcka
No ancient text uses the phrase Kharsag-kzurcka; its appearance here is probably the result of an OCR error in this article, on page 739. But the actual text reads "Kharsag-kurkurra" at that point. --Akhilleus (talk) 19:14, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
lead is incorrect
The first sentence now says "Kharsag; (ḪURSAG 𒉺𒂅) (also transcribed as Khar-sag, Hur-sag, Kharsag-kurkura and other variations)..." This is obviously incorrect. Kharsag cannot be "transcribed" as kharsag-kurkura; these are different words. I'd fix this, but I don't want to be accused of edit warring. So hopefully someone else will change the lead so it doesn't claim that different words are the same word. --Akhilleus (talk) 19:46, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
I have now fixed this to read "Some variations of this word were used to describe temples or houses dedicated to this location." instead of "this word" which I agree is slightly unclear. This now justifies adding all the variations back again perhaps, but I'm happy they're clear enough within the cites and agree the lead needed simplifying. I've added gar-sag as this is Barton's (and others) direct phonetic translation. Paul Bedson (talk) 21:22, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- I think the lede was a bit too cluttered with all of the names anyways. This is simpler and nicer on the eyes. Now, what word would be better than transcribed? I think someone changed it to transliterated at some point, would that be better? SilverserenC 21:25, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- Regarding the kur and sag translations. There is one for "sag" which Akhilleus's dictionaries will reveal as "head" no doubt. Patrick1982 quoted the online cite at me sometime during discussions, but I've lost it. The actual initial part, according to Barton, is "khar" or "gar" which hasn't turned up in the dictionaries for me. Half the problem with all the misunderstandings with this article is caused by all the scholars in the field having little co-ordination or agreement in their efforts. This has led to errors like Kramer's "hur" creeping into the mainstream, and that "saffron" thing, whatever that was about! Kramer's "kur" could well be an interpretation of kharsag, but it's hard to tell, there's no direct discussion in his texts that I can find although they bear striking similarities. This shouldn't be a problem for the article however as Barton's "khar" or "gar" is unique and without translation in current dictionaries, proving the specific singularity to the location. I have been reliably informed that the archaic cuneiform pictogram for "khar" or "gar" looks a bit like a garden or enclosure. Perhaps later irrigation. Paul Bedson (talk) 00:22, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
I'd say all of the problems with this article stem from it being written by people with no knowledge of Assyriology relying on fringe authors for their understanding of ancient texts.
Temples were not dedicated to "Kharsag". They are temples of various deities. So the lead is still, sadly, not correct; in fact, the error I pointed out at the beginning of this section, that Kharsag cannot be "transcribed" as Kharsag-kurkurra because they're different words is still present. --Akhilleus (talk) 23:45, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- And, as I asked above, what would be a better word than transcribed? Would transliterated work? You are not offering any changes, just criticizing what's there, which isn't helpful at all. SilverserenC 23:47, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- This is yet another complete speculation that temples were not dedicated to Kharsag, please read the citations in context which clearly show they were. Boutiflower's is quite good and should make very clear that temples were dedicated to kharsag and that this is where people thought the gods lived, not in the temple as previously suggested:
" The House of the Great Mountain of the Lands," the name given to the temple at Nippur. In Babylonian mythology the gods were supposed to dwell in the sacred mountain called " the Mountain of the Lands," and, accord- ing to Jastrow, Enlil, as being the chief of the gods, was more particularly associated with this mountain, and from being regarded as the inhabitant of the mountain became identified with the mountain itself. Paul Bedson (talk) 00:23, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
- I offered some changes earlier: [5]. They were reverted. "Transliterated" won't work either, because kharsag cannot be transliterated as kharsag-kurkurra. They're not the same word. You can't transliterate "mountain" as "Mount Everest", either, for the same reason—they're not the same thing. Removing "kharsag-kurkurra" entirely would work. --Akhilleus (talk) 00:10, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
This is now my third request for any supporting citation of kharsag, garsag or hursag in context as a common noun "mountain" before dealing with any further wild speculations, repeated claims that it is and personal attacks. If there are none, please let's close the AfD discussion and work on what can be done here progressively. In your own time, when you're ready. Paul Bedson (talk) 00:21, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
- You know, it's contradictory to say "In your own time, when you're ready" while complaining that it's the third time you've requested a citation. Now, please look at line 32 of this text (Inana and Ebih): ḫur-saĝ ebiḫki-ke4 te-a-me-en ni2-bi na-ma-ra-ab-ak ("as I approached the mountain range of Ebiḫ it showed me no respect."). ḫur-saĝ is translated as "mountain range" (a common noun!) exactly as the entry for ḫur-saĝ at the Pennsylvania Sumerian Dictionary would suggest is proper. It seems that ḫur-saĝ can function as part of a proper noun—in some texts it seems to be an epithet of Enlil, the "Great Mountain"—but that's not much different than what "mountain" does in English, right? --Akhilleus (talk) 00:34, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
Hold on a moment. It took me only a few moments of reading how Inanna created a sacred mountain to realise that this is being used in context about a sacred mountain that Inana lives on and it's just called Ebih instead of Kharsag and Inanna's called that instead of Ninkharsag. This is a later Akkadian text than Bartons and isn't really using the word as a common noun. There's just been some name changing going on and we have another magic mountain:
"Fruit hangs in its flourishing gardens and luxuriance spreads forth. Its magnificent trees, a crown in the heavens, …… stand as a wonder to behold. In Ebiḫ …… lions are abundant under the canopy of trees and bright branches. It makes wild rams and stags freely abundant. It stands wild bulls in flourishing grass. Deer couple among the cypress trees of the mountain range."
and this:
"My little one demands the destruction of this mountain -- what is she taking on? Inana demands the destruction of this mountain -- what is she taking on? She demands the destruction of this mountain -- what is she taking on?"
116-120. "It has poured fearsome terror on the abodes of the gods. It has spread fear among the holy dwellings of the Anuna deities. Its fearsomeness is terrible and weighs upon the Land. The mountain range's radiance is terrible and weighs upon all the lands. Its arrogance extends grandly to the centre of heaven."
It is still fascinating reading. My thanks for that. Paul Bedson (talk) 01:50, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
- I'm afraid I don't understand your objection. The text you just quoted uses "mountain" 3 times and "mountain range" once. Those are common nouns in English; presumably they're translating common nouns in the original text. I don't understand why you would think they refer to a place called Kharsag, unless you simply assume that every instance of "mountain" means that. This text, Inana and Ebih, never mentions a place named "Kharsag". It mentions Ebih, which is apparently identified with Jebel Hamrin. --Akhilleus (talk) 01:59, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
I'm not really objecting, just pointing out the time difference in usage and context, plus it's usage as a proper noun in a number of places I can't be bothered to count, which is very similar to the use of Kharsag in earlier myths. There's a great bit here speaking of the Dam overflowing. Off to see if Jebel Hamrin had a Dam.
171-175. "I have built a palace and done much more. I have put a throne in place and made its foundation firm. I have given the kurĝara cult performers a dagger and prod. I have given the gala cult performers ub and lilis drums. I have transformed the pilipili cult performers."
176-181. "In my victory I rushed towards the mountain. In my victory I rushed towards Ebiḫ, the mountain range. I went forward like a surging flood, and like rising water I overflowed the dam. I imposed my victory on the mountain. I imposed my victory on Ebiḫ." Paul Bedson (talk) 02:15, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
Here's another nice example of ḫur-saĝ as a common noun, with transliterated text and translation next to each other. It's The debate between Winter and Summer. --Akhilleus (talk) 01:02, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
Fascinating stuff, and always great to be sharing knowledge. Excuse me for being contradictory. It's British sarcasm, from which I will refrain. Well, if you're prepared to admit it's use in this context as a proper noun, I'll admit it's use as a common noun elsewhere. Although your source does look likely to be in a more modern version of Akkadian as Ninhursag has changed her name to Inanna aleady. The second article didn't read like the title of the link, is it a joke about the state of this debate? I see no Winter and Summer. It did remind me of the different versions of hursag (Akkadian, Ur, Babylonian, etc.) that makes Sumerians so notably weird. I'd be more convinced with an article mentioning Ninhursag and using it as a common noun, but let's not split hairs, i'm sure it took you long enough looking that one up. It's a bit late for me and I'm pleased we're kinda reading from the same page now, I'm going to read Inana and Ebih better. This has been an entertaining and educational debate. I look forward to more in the development of the Mesopotamian Myth series. My thanks again to all of SilverSeren's hard work on this - perhaps we should have a celebratory walk up Mount Hermon if we rescue it! ;-) Paul Bedson (talk) 01:25, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
- I screwed up the link to The Debate between Winter and Summer. It should be fixed now; try it again and you'll see a section of the text with transliteration of the original and a translation. --Akhilleus (talk) 01:59, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
That's better, but this links to text about Enlil copulating with a mountain, which I insist that if Gods are having sex with a mountain, it must be a magic mountain and in most contexts is not in it's ordinary use as a common noun. Paul Bedson (talk) 02:23, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
- Sure, the mountain is "magic" (a pretty vague term), but this is a mythological text. Is it really that strange to find elements of the landscape personified?
- As for the rest of your response, I'm not sure we're understanding the term "common noun" in the same way. A common noun is a generic term that can be applied to many individuals, e.g. chef, island, man, book, child, mountain. In English, common nouns are not capitalized and can be preceded by the definite article "the"; proper nouns, which denote specific individuals, are capitalized and generally don't take the definite article "the". (Obviously there are exceptions to this last point, e.g. the Iliad.) If I'm having a conversation about a book, let's say Greek Religion by Walter Burkert, both the title of the book and the author's name are proper nouns, but I can refer to them with common nouns, e.g. I can say "in the book, the author says that Greeks believed temples were the dwelling places of the gods." Even though I'm referring to specific individuals with "book" and "author" respectively, "book" and "author" are still common nouns. Same deal with the repeated instances of "mountain" in the texts quoted above. The texts may well be referring to specific, even magical, mountains—Inanna and Ebih is obviously referring to Mt. Ebih—but that doesn't mean that the word "mountain" became a proper noun. And it doesn't mean that ḫur-saĝ becomes a proper noun because it refers to a specific mountain, either. When I say "look at that mountain over there" as I stand next to Denali, I'm still using a common noun ("mountain") to refer to it. --Akhilleus (talk) 03:41, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
Understood, but the primary references, including Kramer, who seems to have originated the Hursag translation refers to it as The Hursag, which makes it a proper noun in context in Sumerian. Taking later Akkadian usagess of the word and implying they mean the same thing as a more archaic versions is unsound. Mount Ebih is obviously a later corruption of Kharsag and hundreds of years apart as shown by the names of the Gods which have changed. The religious text you have chosen refers to a completely different time period and religion. People have stopped worshipping Ninkharsag by this time and replaced her with Inanna. It's fairly obvious that the mountain of the Godds too is likely to have changed names and even location by then. This is not far off saying archaic Sumerians worshipped Athena on Olympus and is misleading. Paul Bedson (talk) 14:22, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
Removal of large amounts of content
User:Dbachmann has removed large portions of the article and rewritten some of it so that it is completely different and not related to what we are trying to talk about in this article. Furthermore, he has not commented on this talk pages about these changes, as you are supposed to do when making controversial edits (though it is more recommended that you talk about them before you do them when they will be controversial, but whatever.) He is an admin, I guess? So i'm rather surprised at this kind of behavior. SilverserenC 09:51, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
I don't suppose you are going to defend any of the content I have removed? Perhaps if this is supposed to grow into an encyclopedia article, you let people work? Especially as you appear to know exactly nothing about the topic? Hursag means mountain. Kurkur means "highlands", or just "lands". Hursag Kurkura presumably means something like "mountain range" or "peak of the highlands", I'll have to figure that out. The article as I found it was utterly misguided, just what you would get from a person googling random Sumerian terms and then copy-pasting a collage of a few results they got. Some joker even added an interwiki link to a Turkish article about a village called "Karsak", plus geolocation, I mean, what the hell?
Mountains do play an important role in Mesopotamian mythology, and there is scholarly literature on the topic, so it is possible to turn this from a random copy-paste collection of google results into an enclopedia article. Just if you do not object, of course. --dab (𒁳) 09:54, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
- My position and the position of others has already been explained fully on this talk page and in the AfD discussion. I really do not feel like reiterating it all over again. I will only say that "Kur" means mountain and "sag" means "peak", "mount", or "center". No explanation for Kharsag has been made yet by those wishing to change the article like you. And, I repeat for what feels like the millionth time, we want this article to be about the mythological mountain that the Sumerian gods lived on, not on the Sumerian word for mountain. If you feel that Kharsag, Hursag, or whatever word is not the right one for this mountain, then please suggest an alternative, but this article is absolutely not, I repeat yet again, not about the Sumerian word for mountain, but the mythological mountain of the gods. SilverserenC 10:02, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
well, then perhaps you should write that article? Because the material I removed had nothing whatsoever to do with Sumerian mythology. Neither did the link to the Turkish village, or the geographic coordinates. I have already said that this should be the article on mountains in Sumerian mythology. I have no idea why your retort to that is that this should be the article on mountains in Sumerian mythology. You are basically not making any sense whatsoever, and you show no indication that you have the first inkling on the topic you propose to want to write an article about.
Perhaps, also just a suggestion, you should try to get a basic understanding of Ancient Near Eastern religion at this point? So that you will be able to appreciate that there won't be "the" mountain of the gods, but numerous local mountains of the gods or the local god, as Sumerian mythology and religion was in no way centralized or standardized. Basically, each temple had its own mythology. You cannot write an article about "the mountain of the gods (Sumer)". Of course, if you would bother to collect actual literature on the topic, you would know that. As opposed to, you know, defending material about metal bands, UFOlogy and pseudoarchaeology. Now please either help us write the article on the mountains of the gods in Sumerian myth, or else at least stop disrupting attempts to do so. --dab (𒁳) 10:14, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)...*sighs* All of the sources in the article, as has been explained in discussions here a myriad of times, are about the mythological mountain (singular word, mountain) that Ninhursag lived on (primarily referenced in the sources, more than the other gods, though Enlil is also mentioned a lot). The Sumerian gods lived on this mountain and sent the Anunnaki from it to populate the world. This article is supposed to be about that mountain, which is shown by the sources and was defined by the text of the article. If you believe the article should be written differently to define the mythological mountain that is the subject, then please feel free to make those suggestions here. Now, if you don't mind, i'm going to revert the article back to the subject it is meant to be about. SilverserenC 10:26, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
- I am greatly disturbed by the fact that you seem to have went through the AfD's i've been involved in, which have no relevance to this. SilverserenC 10:26, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
(edit conflict)(edit conflict):He's removed a lot of original research, I agree. It's still not a good article and I don't think it can ever be a good article as it is based on original research and was making claims that have no reliable sources. He also removed some inappropriate categories. Admins are allowed to edit just as anyone else can, and he used edit summaries after his first edit. In any case his edits were in line with a number of the comments in the discussions above and as you probably know I've been saying all along the article was based on original research and so far I haven't seen anyone actually spend much time denying that this is basically original research. If this is a Sumerian Olympus as Paul Bedson says, there should be no problems finding sources discussing it as a Sumerian Olympus. Instead there is confusion about philology obfuscated by what look at first glance to be reliable sources backing the philology, confusiong about the Anunnaki - who they were, where they supposedly lived, etc. The 'sources' are mainly primary sources being misused (for Wikipedia that is). If removing original research changes the article, then the article clearly needs changing. This is a fundamental policy issue. Dougweller (talk) 10:35, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
- There has never even been a conflict about the mountain itself. The conflict that you have been bringing up is over the name and titles used for the mountain, which I could care less about. All of the sources are talking about the mountain and you refuse to acknowledge that. I've even given quotes and the only argument i've received in response is about the name used. What sources do you believe are not talking about the mountain? SilverserenC 10:41, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
- Do you understand that we can't use primary sources, ie translations, we need sources to real people saying 'these words are all referring to this mountain' or discussing 'this mountain'? I can find loads of sources discussing Olympus, if this is the Sumerian equivalent, where are the equivalent sources? Dougweller (talk) 10:48, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
- There is very little information to be found on Sumerian religion about the creation myth, other than these few cylinders. I mean, you have the Epic of Gilgamesh, but other than that? The Sumerian creation myth article itself is extremely lacking in citations also The sources we have on this article are, as far as I can tell, the only people who have been working on translating these cylinders. That's why there's so little information to go on. The primary source translations are all we have to work with in terms of direct information about the creation myth. And not all of them are primary sources, regardless, there are more than enough sources that are discussing the mountain itself that aren't translations. SilverserenC 10:55, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
- Do you understand that we can't use primary sources, ie translations, we need sources to real people saying 'these words are all referring to this mountain' or discussing 'this mountain'? I can find loads of sources discussing Olympus, if this is the Sumerian equivalent, where are the equivalent sources? Dougweller (talk) 10:48, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
- You need to be specific as I've seen a number of sources added which didn't back what they were claimed to back. We need to use sources that are discussing the primary sources, not make up an article based on primary sources. So, what are these sources that aren't translations? Dougweller (talk) 11:17, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
- [6] and [7]. This has already been explained before. Anyways, i'm off to bed, it's 6 AM here. SilverserenC 11:25, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
- So, two sources, both over a hundred years old, are the best that can be found? All the work done since then and no mention? And what makes "Temples of the Orient and their message in the light of Holy Scriptures, Dante's vision, and Bunyan's allegory" by Gordon, E. A. Mrs.[8] (who is not in the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography although she was British) a reliable source? Or Warren for that matter, who seems best known today as a university president and secondarily as someone who believed in Eden at the North Pole. Dougweller (talk) 12:03, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
- [6] and [7]. This has already been explained before. Anyways, i'm off to bed, it's 6 AM here. SilverserenC 11:25, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
- You need to be specific as I've seen a number of sources added which didn't back what they were claimed to back. We need to use sources that are discussing the primary sources, not make up an article based on primary sources. So, what are these sources that aren't translations? Dougweller (talk) 11:17, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
I'm not going to get into that discussion, which I feel I have already answered at least once and explained is within the citations. I feel kharsag's use in the oldest religious text justifies it's own article as do two thirds of the editors who have taken part in the deletion discussions, whether or not the later discussion contains the word within a phrase, it's obviously a discussion about that 'term' if that's the correct phraseology. I'm more concerned about the discussion regarding "kur" verses "khar", "gar" or "hur". I suggest we leave this as khar as this is what is cited by Barton. I have been re-reading Kramer this morning and while he has possibly included "khar" or "gar" in his formulation of the use of "kur" in Sumerian Mythology, but he doesn't discuss this. He has inserted hursag as a seperate location, which he then uses as a confusing mixture or proper and common noun. I don't feel this article should be merged with kur as Kramer is discussing them as different places quite clearly in his "Sumerian Mythology" and argue this shouldn't be muddled with that word, which I believe Kramer has merged from many myths to present an overview of the concept within a short introductary volume on the subject. Paul Bedson (talk) 13:05, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
- None of the people on the AfD who want to keep the article have tackled the original research issue. I'm repeating myself and not getting any explicit answers. Where are the reliable secondary sources discussing either this 'location' (and linking it to the words) or even linking the words? Dougweller (talk) 14:10, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
- Boutiflower and Jastrow offer the best discussions. Kramer's isn't bad but is confusing. The cosmology ones are good too. I think you're confusing original research with old research again. Paul Bedson (talk) 14:13, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
More than one mountain
I'm trying to find what I can with limited resources. If we are trying to write an article about mountains in Sumerian mythology, we should start with the hypothesis that not all mountains are identical, not an assumption that they are, and be careful not to go beyond what reliable sources say no matter what we think we 'undertand' or 'believe'. Kramer, p. 117 [9] writes about Ninurta blessing the Hursag so it will produce wine, sheep, etc. On the other hand, Kramer says, p. 47, that the word meaning 'mountain' is regularly used to mean 'nether world', so we have to be careful about its use. And on the 3rd hand, we also have An (Anu) creating the Anunnaki on the "mountain of heaven and earth" (and we really really have to be careful about the Anunnaki, as another myth has Marduk creating them, putting 300 in heaven, 300 on earth). Kramer doesn't suggest that the Hursag of Ninurta's blessing is the "mountain of heaven and earth". We should also be careful about names, as we may find that different names used by different translators may or may not represent the same cuneiform sign - there seems to have been a bit of an assumption that they do. Dougweller (talk) 16:28, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
- And Hursag simply means mountain. Look at page 75 of this where it is used repetitively while describing a messenger crossing a number of mountain ranges (so here it means mountain range, not just a mountain). Dougweller (talk) 16:53, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
- Agreed in later versions of cuneiform it can simply mean a common noun mountain. Please see my comments regarding Kharsag's use in archaic cuneiform, which I argue is not the same thing, Barton specifically mentions this form as the oldest in the book. Marduk for instance is much later re-naming and doesn't belong in this pantheon. I do however welcome your comments for careful consideration about the use of this word. It still needs some tidying regarding Kur and hursag. Paul Bedson (talk) 16:59, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
- I agree on booting the Annunaki, but disagree we should lose the story contents of the myths. Hope the deities revert pleases. Paul Bedson (talk) 18:10, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
- Ok, we seem to be editing at the same time. Please note my citation style (I use a gadget in preferences but had to tweak it for the page number, which is required for books for verification purposes but not for articles). Although you may well be right about archaic cuneiform, we would need a reliable source.
- I know that there are recent books and articles about Sumerian mythology, it's a bit worrying that we are relying so much on such old sources. Dougweller (talk) 18:27, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
- This is why I am fighting so hard to keep that knowledge Doug. I worry a lot about the world getting dumber. Barton does provide a reliable source about the age of the cuneiform, sorry if it's old, but it still counts:
"The script in which it is written is that of the dynasty of Agade. It is slightly more archaic than the business documents of this period, but similar differences are observable between the business scripts and those of religious texts in every period of Babylonian writing. As the dynasty of Agade ruled from about 2800BC to 2600BC, the text here recorded is of equal, if not greater antiquity than the Pyramid Texts of Egypt."
"If our somewhat uncertain chronologies are correct, Shargalisharri's reign was nearly contemporaneous with that of the Egyptian king Unis, wile that of Naram-Sin antedated it it is more probable that a foundation cylinder would be placed beneath the structure when it was first constructed than when spits in its worn pavement were repaired. It is, accordingly, a plausible conjecture that our cylinder was written early in the reign of Naram-Sin. In that case, it is probably half a century older than the pyramid text of Unis and is the oldest extended religious expression that has survived from any portion of the human race. "
I would be grateful for any work you can do to improve the state of the links and sort page numbers. I have to go to Plymouth Museum to get onto JSTOR. Paul Bedson (talk) 18:47, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
- I just want to ask, is it really that hard to believe that the Sumerians would name the original mythlogical mountain that their gods lived on just "mountain". That seems like a logical thing to do to me. And then everything else called mountain, by them, is just a representation of the original mountain. SilverserenC 18:43, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
I agree with Silver unless you can produce a cite for that, also if there are none in the plural (in this context with original deities), we should revert to the singular mountain when specifically dicussing kharsag. I'm fine with the starting bit about mountains plural being important to Sumerians as Akhilleus has shown different mountains were used at different times in Sumerian history. Paul Bedson (talk) 18:47, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
- If you mean by Kharag Barton, we can use it the way Barton does. He's the only one who uses that spelling. Do you mean that Silver would need a cite to say what he's said? Or that we need a cite to talk about the original mythological mountain etc? Dougweller (talk) 19:40, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
- A cite about it meaning a common noun "mountain" or "mountains" in context with the original pantheon. Without any evidence to the contrary it is reasonable to assume they called their sacred mountain "Kharsag" (singular) at this time. Paul Bedson (talk) 19:47, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
- You need a cite that says that the word isn't about the mythological mountain, as our sources say it is. You haven't presented any other sources that say otherwise so far. SilverserenC 19:48, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
- That's backwards. We only have an assertion that Barton is talking about "the mythological mountain"; Barton doesn't provide any commentary to that effect, and we don't have any secondary sources saying it. I've been trying to figure out if there are any secondary sources on this.The text that Barton translates, which has been referred to here as the "Oldest Religious Text From Babylonia", is in the Penn Museum, CBS 08383. At least, I think that's right; one of the difficulties in dealing with this article is figuring out exactly which ancient texts we're talking about, so we can try to track down how later translators have dealt with them and so we can find out how people have interpreted them. Since Barton says that "it cannot be too strongly emphasized that the interpretation offered below is purely tentative," it's important to see how later scholars have dealt with the text. This text is also known as the Barton Cylinder, and a newer edition of the text was apparently published in B. Alster and Aage Westenholz in Acta Sumerologica 16 (1994) 15–46. Sadly, I don't have access to this. However, there are a few pages on the cylinder in Jeremy Black, "The Sumerians in their landscape," in Riches hidden in secret places: ancient Near Eastern studies in memory of Thorkild Jacobsen, eds. Jacobsen and Abusch, pp. 44-45. Unfortunately, Black only translates a small portion of the text and not the part that's been used to claim that "Kharsag" is a placename.
- Black's comments on another text, The Debate between Sheep and Grain, are interesting. An important location in this text is "the hursag (hill) of Heaven-and-Earth"—neither a flat plain or a mountain, but a hilly landscape..." (p. 45) Note that "hill" isn't capitalized—it's not part of a proper name. And this "hill of Heaven-and-Earth", as the name implies, refers to the state of the universe before the separation of heaven and earth—it's where everything in existence is situated. Upon the "hill of Heaven-and-Earth" is located a place Black translates as the Holy Mound (the word translated as "mound" is dul). This is where the Anuna gods are born and the other gods live prior to the separation of heaven and earth.
- Here's something I found particularly interesting: "Now the terms hursag 'hill' and dul 'mound' are known from administrative field plans dating from the Third Dynasty of Ur, which conveniently demonstrate the use of these terms as part of the everyday vocabulary of vernacular speech, not resistricted to a purely literary lexicon. The plans use hursag for the 'hilly' parts of fields, which are difficult to cultivate (so that hursag can be translated as 'hill(s)')..." (p. 46) So here's a modern scholar, writing specifically about Sumerian ideas of landscape, who doesn't say that "Kharsag" is the mountain of the gods, and who doesn't say that it's a proper noun at all. --Akhilleus (talk) 20:03, 22 April 2010 (UTC)