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{{Archive box|[[/Archive 1]]- 2006-2008 discussions |
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[[/Archive 2]]- 2008 discussions involving Met firing dispute}} |
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==Break down?== |
==Break down?== |
Revision as of 19:59, 12 August 2008
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/Archive 1- 2006-2008 discussions /Archive 2- 2008 discussions involving Met firing dispute |
Break down?
Having seen Voceditenore's 'hands-on' approach fail, I've been trying to mediate without getting personally involved, without giving my own opinion - just trying to arrive at a compromise that satisfies/dissatisfies you both equally. (IMO your differences are not irreconciliable.) So I've been trying to provide you both with a process to agree the text section by section, paragraph by paragraph, sentence by sentence.
However I see that Nrswanson has reservations about this ( "I don't think this is the best place to start. . . ." ) and is thinking of bringing other parties into this. Perhaps I should withdraw from the process and let someone else take over? --Kleinzach 23:40, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
- That might be a good idea. Personally I feel this converation could benefit from the input of more editors rather than just a back and forth between two people. I also think that fundamentally we need to get a firm grasp on the BLP guidelines and how they best apply here. I personally would like to know your personal opinion Kleinzach, since I have a high regard for you as an editor.Nrswanson (talk) 00:04, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks again, Kleinzach. I have no reservations about your approach you've taken and see no evidence to suggest that this is ineffective method, other than nrswanson disagrees (from what I can see) with the compromises that both you and voceditenore have suggested (after hearing both sides) and feels that, in his words, my demands compromise the "integrity and ethics of this encyclopedia." / It is understandable that you opted to a more neutral approach to this (avoid personal involvement), so that there would be not doubt as to your neutrality as a mediator. Thanks for that! It is also understandable that you employ a process. I am frankly wondering how differently others are brought into this will handle it, and assuming that they too will apply the same sort of process. And when it comes time to discussing certain content that involve BLP guidelines, we will do our best to get a better understanding by providing examples and, if necessary, the input of others. / Nonetheless, I agree with nrswanson (yeah, :-)) "fundamentally we need to get a firm grasp on the BLP guidelines and how they best apply here." Respectfully, Hrannar (talk) 17:09, 11 August 2008 (UTC)Hrannar
- OK. This is me then, amicably signing off and saying goodbye. You have various options. I'd recommend trying a more formal approach. Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Biographies and Wikipedia:Requests for mediation are probably both worth looking at. Good luck! --Kleinzach 22:52, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
- Thank you Kleinzach for your time and help. I too applaud your effort but in this case I think leaving the discussion between just the two of us will never get anywhere and we need the input of more people in achieving a balanced article, particularly from editors with experience in BLP guidelines. Ultimately I think that approach will prove to be more fruitful in the long run. I would like to take this discussion to the Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard. I also invite you Kleinzach and anyone else who is interested to join that discussion. I personally detest debates between just two or three editors since usually they never result in a long term solution. Even if my opinions get shot down, I'd rather have it come from a community consensus than from just one editor. And Hrannar, I don't appriciate you taking my words out of context. It is very annoying and insults everyone's intelligence.Nrswanson (talk) 02:03, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks, Kleinzach. You did the best that you could and nrswanson seemed to prefer another route. It seems to me that he has frequently accused various actions that are "annoying and that "insults everyone's intellignece" and that is his right to his opinion. Rather than counter respond to another accusation on his part -- as I think much time has already been done doing that -- let's just let what stands on the discussions speak for themselves and avoid what seems to be personal attacks. And we can agree to disagree about taking words out of context. Can you be specific? For the record, I would have been happy to continue working with your (Kleinzach's) process, non personal involvement, approach. Hrannar (talk) 14:37, 12 August 2008 (UTC)Hrannar
- I have gone ahead and started a discussion at Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard.Nrswanson (talk) 03:22, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
- Hrannar I appologize to you if I have offended you at all but in all fairness I am a bit non-plussed as to where I have personally attacked you? My concerns have always been about the content of this page and I have never resorted to name calling or deroggatory remarks of any kind. I have pointed out disagreements I have with your edits and how I believe they may not allign with wikipedia guidelines but I would not characterize that as a personal attack.Nrswanson (talk) 17:08, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
- Nrswanson - I don't really feel offended, just obviously needing to respond to some statements you make of me you state that I am "gaming the system", "grossly distorting BLP"; I never said you name called. However, if you do not feel you have made and/or strong suggest derogatory remarks, than we must agree to disagree. As long as we stick to the content, I will not address any civility concerns. Hrannar (talk) 17:22, 12 August 2008 (UTC)Hrannar
- Hrannar, those are not personal attacks but my valid opinions about your position and how they fit within wikipedia guidelines. These are points I had/have to make. I didn't think you intended to distort blp guidelines or game the system on purpose, but you are doing those things. I don't take back those statements either since I believe them to be true. At the same time, I think you are trying to do the right thing and are acting in good faith (which I keep stating over and over to show you I respect you and am not trying to offend you). The crux of my arguement is based around the fact that I believe the information you removed and/or object to be included is essential for a NPOV, essential for non-cencorship reasons, and perfectly acceptable under the BLP guidelines. I can't make that case without pointing out my viewpoint on your edits. Again this is not an attack on you personally. Up to this point, neither Kleinzach, Voceditenore, or yourself have addressed my concerns directly which is why I fealt/feel another process needed to be pursued. Basically, I didn't think anybody was listening to me at all.Nrswanson (talk) 17:35, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Also, I would like to point out that if their had been personal attacks by either of us our mediator would have certainly have jumped on us for it. As for taking my words out of context it's not worth going into. The short of it is you made it seem like I communicated something when I really had not intended to communicate that at all. This is really not worth going into. It will only cause further back and forth arguing. At this point I am a little leary at talking to you directly as it seems we are at an impass. Also, I did not feel that the so called compromises took my position into any serious consideration or for that matter improved the article in any meaningful way. For instance, I would have prefered no sub-headings over only two becuase two sub-headings just didn't make sense to me based on the content I want to include. Anyway, this discussion never seems to get anywhere and both of us seem to get either hurt or frusturated frequently. What we need is a community discussion where it isn't just back and forth between us all the time. That will give a better ground for a fruitful discussion without all the heated diatribes. I think it will also help us focus solely on the content so we can come up with a positive solution. I would also ask that you possibly re-think some of your statements on the current discussion, in particular those regarding my supposed lack of civility. Also, what was the point in bringing up an old January 2007 edit made by me when I have no interest in keeping that wording today? I agreed that that wording was bad a long time ago. This is once again a mischaracterization of myself and my opinions. I also don't like the way you keep on refering to Voceditenore as some sort of ally. He himself had issues with your attempt to implement his ideas (which are not in themselves infallible either) and also expressed no problem in my presentation. Also, in regards to removing the neutrality tag, I genuinely believed that there was enough consensus at the time because of Rickterp, Nickbird, Voceditenore, and myself appearing to be ok with it. I appologize for my error in judgement but it was done in good faith. I would appriciate your removing that comment as well. With those kind of comments, this really is not the best way to go into this with a great deal of spirit of cooperation. Nrswanson (talk) 17:37, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
- Nrswanson, I know you are good people and look forward to resolving this. As both of us have suggested, let's move on. And move the focus from defending. Ok? This can keep going on and on, can't it. So let's just agree to disagree. And now work to making this an awesome article. This is, as you probably would agree, not productive. Also, I accept and thank you for your apology. I too apologize and did not mean to change what you state had been agreed upon consensusly when, from from what I could see, had not occurred. All the best and looking forward to creating a useful, ethical, and neutral article. Hrannar (talk) 18:59, 12 August 2008 (UTC)Hrannar
Agreed. Would you please remove some of those statements from the other page as discussed above. I will likewise remove anything you feel is unfair or unjust. Obviously our differences of opinion of what neutral is and the interpretation of BLP guidelines is a fact that will have to remain for the benefit of finding a possible solution. In particular I would like this entire section to be removed:
" For example, note the edit that nrswanson did on on June 22, 2007 at 5:11,where he states that he is "rephrasing for professional language: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kathleen_Battle&diff=139829673&oldid=139829248 ORIGINAL Some, though not all, of the other music professionals who have worked with Battle have viewed her as lacking appropriate professionalism. One of these was former Metropolitan Opera General Magager Joseph Volpe, who fired her from an engagement to perform the lead in La Fille du Regiment in 1994
NRSWANSONS and his "Rephrasing for professional language" A perfectionist in her own work, Battle became more and more difficult to deal with as her career moved forward. Some felt that her demands were becoming unreasonable, and her behavior became erratic. These difficulties came to public attention when she was dismissed from the Metropolitan Opera in 1994 for "unprofessional conduct." by former Metropolitan Opera General Magager Joseph Volpe.
IMHO, this is a change of content, not just whether this is professional language or not."
I have not advocated nor supported that wording sense November 2007 and its inclusion here is frankly not helpful in any way.
I would also like this section removed: "ABOUT CONCENSUS and CIVILITY. But please look at the history around July 31 2008. When nrswanson seemed satisfied with the article, he removed the neutrality tag. Unfortunately, as far as I can tell, he did not seek concensus. So when I expressed my concern over Neutrality by readding the neutrality dispute tag, nrswanson shortly thereafter removed my neutrality tag stating, "neutrality tag no longer applies. you are just trying to unbalance a balanced presentation in the name of neutrality. if it is altered from this version it will be an NPOV violation and censorship vio." I feel this is fairly typical of how nrswanson communicates with me."
I could easily point to places where you have been just as unkind to me. This really is not helpful here to getting a fresh start.