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:''John Howard's government also considered the issue of a national apology to [[Indigenous Australians]], as recommended in the [[Bringing Them Home]] report, in recognition of the treatment by previous governments following the European settlement of the country. In the face of a growing movment in favour of a national apology, Howard was resolute in his refusal to do this, although all State and Territory Governments issued their own. Instead, John Howard personally expressed "deep sorrow" while maintaining that "Australians of this generation should not be required to accept guilt and blame for past actions and policies."<ref name="speech-reconciliation_convention">{{cite web | url=http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/special/rsjproject/rsjlibrary/car/arc/speeches/opening/howard.htm | title=Opening Speech of Australian Reconciliation Convention | publisher=Australasian Legal Information Institute | date=[[26]] [[May]] [[2000]] | accessdate=2006-08-23}}</ref> In February 2008, in the opening week of the new parliament that followed his election loss, he declined an invitation to the [[Stolen_generations#Australian_Federal_government_apology|parliamentary apology]] to the [[stolen generations]].'' |
:''John Howard's government also considered the issue of a national apology to [[Indigenous Australians]], as recommended in the [[Bringing Them Home]] report, in recognition of the treatment by previous governments following the European settlement of the country. In the face of a growing movment in favour of a national apology, Howard was resolute in his refusal to do this, although all State and Territory Governments issued their own. Instead, John Howard personally expressed "deep sorrow" while maintaining that "Australians of this generation should not be required to accept guilt and blame for past actions and policies."<ref name="speech-reconciliation_convention">{{cite web | url=http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/special/rsjproject/rsjlibrary/car/arc/speeches/opening/howard.htm | title=Opening Speech of Australian Reconciliation Convention | publisher=Australasian Legal Information Institute | date=[[26]] [[May]] [[2000]] | accessdate=2006-08-23}}</ref> In February 2008, in the opening week of the new parliament that followed his election loss, he declined an invitation to the [[Stolen_generations#Australian_Federal_government_apology|parliamentary apology]] to the [[stolen generations]], the only former Prime Minister to do so.'' |
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==Howard's PM infobox== |
==Howard's PM infobox== |
Revision as of 03:04, 19 February 2008
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Photo of Howard bust
A pity because someone went to the effort, but I believe a photo of a Howard bust http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image%3AJohn_Howard_bust.jpg is a photo of copyrighted art and so is a "deriviative work". If I am correct, then there are copyright issues and it will need to be removed. See http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons%3ADerivative_works Peter Ballard (talk) 10:52, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
- "Photographs of buildings and artworks in public spaces: Those are derivative works, but they may be OK, if the artwork is permanently installed (which means, it is there to stay, not to be removed after a certain time), and in some countries if you are on public ground while taking the picture. Check Commons:Freedom of panorama if your country has a liberal policy on this exception and learn more about freedom of panorama. (Note that in most countries, freedom of panorama does not cover two-dimensional artworks such as murals.)" [1]
- Australia: "Freedom of Panorama is dealt with in the Australian Copyright Act, sections 65-68. These sections allow photographers to take pictures of buildings and also of sculptures and works of artistic craftsmanship provided that they are permanently located in a public place or in premises open to the public. It is also permitted to publish such pictures (section 68). Australian law is modelled on UK law, and in the absence of any specific case law to the contrary is is reasonable to assume that the rules will be identical. See the United Kingdom section for more details."[2]
- United Kingdom: "Section 62 of the UK Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 is much broader than the corresponding provisions in many other countries, and allows photographers to take pictures of
- buildings, and
- sculptures, models for buildings and works of artistic craftsmanship (if permanently situated in a public place or in premises open to the public).
- without breaching copyright. Such photographs may be published in any way..."[3]
- Hope the above clarifies it for you Peter. Cheers, WikiTownsvillian 13:30, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
- It looks like you're right. It's just that I've seen the argument raised before (in that case there were other problems with the sculpure so the copyright question became a non-issue), and thought I'd better raise it here. Peter Ballard (talk) 02:44, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
- no worries thank you for raising it, as you said I put a bit of work into it so it is important that issues are raised early, acknowledgement to timeshift for created a whole article on it :) I was a little surprised that there wasn't already one. repWikiTownsvillian 04:14, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
- Good photo. I'm glad it can stay. Lester 06:02, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
1998 Election section
In discussing the closeness of the 1998 Bennelong results we find this:
- "It was unheard of in Australian politics for a sitting prime minister to not win outright victory on the first count."
As Stanley Bruce lost his seat in 1929, it is hardly "unheard of". How often has it actually happened that a sitting PM needed preferences to hold his seat? Molinari (talk) 00:43, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- And in any case he won it comfortably 56-44 on 2PP.[4] The seat was never in doubt so I removed the comment as pointless. Peter Ballard (talk) 01:34, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- I have just removed the edit again. Note that the ABC election tallying (during the count) calls Bennelong "safe". [5] Peter Ballard (talk) 23:17, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
That section mentions "two" main issues in the campaign - the GST stated as one. What is the other? --Merbabu (talk) 01:48, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- Pauline Hanson. I think it got deleted because, while she factored, the GST overshadowed everything. The ABC has a pretty decent archive at http://www.abc.net.au/election98/default.htm Peter Ballard (talk) 01:58, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Can someone lose their seat other than in a Federal election?
User:Shot info recently did a tidying-up edit re Howard's defeat in 2007. The text had read "...making him just the second Australian Prime Minister, after Stanley Bruce in 1929, to lose his own seat in a Federal election." Shot Info deleted the last four words, and justified it by asking rhetorically "Are there Prime Minsters who lose their seats in a non-Federal Election????"
I think the edit is fine but, technically, a Prime Minister could lose his seat in at least several other ways:
- 1) a redistribution leaving him or her 'homeless' (like the sadly-missed Peter Andren)
- Then he'd either (a) gain preselection for a different seat, and contest that seat at the election. If he loses, we're back to square 1; or (b) retire from parliament, which is not the same as losing one's seat (even if forced by circumstance to retire earlier than he had planned to).
- 2) an irregularity in his or her election leading to a legal defeat in the High Court sitting as either the High Court or as the Court of Disputed Returns
- This is legally equivalent to losing his seat on election day. The new member would be installed retrospective to election day.
- 3) disqualification under either Section 44 or 45 of the Constitution (eg. serious criminal conviction, bankrupcy).
- 4) (improbable but not technically impossible) losing party preselection for the seat - though they could of course still stand as an independent.
- ... and if they lose, then it's square 1.
- 5) Dying in office, (eg Harold_Holt) Mitch Ames (talk) 23:11, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
- This is hardly in the category of "losing his own seat", but more "losing his own life".
Cheers everyone! hamiltonstone (talk) 09:57, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
- Personally I thought the edit was quite poor especially given that the reasons for the seat loss are explained in the article. So why the need for it to be reiterated? Shot info (talk) 22:51, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
- Eh? Sorry - I meant i thought your edit was fine, Shot, not the pre-existing text. My point was that, although technically there are other ways for an MP to lose their seat, I nevertheless agreed that the text you excised was redundant in the broader scheme of things. I was just putting up the list of other ways a seat could be lost as background info in case anyone else wanted to argue the toss. But you'll get no argument from me. Cheers hamiltonstone (talk) 23:34, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
1998 Bennelong Preferences information deleted
The information about the seat of Bennelong going down to the wire with preferences in 1998 was deleted in this edit without discussion. Editors should not take it upon themselves to unilaterally delete information like this. That is why we have discussion pages, for the community to decide if it is relevant or not.Lester 09:38, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
- I take issue with "no news articles talk about the specific fact, thus it isn't noteable" line. One good example is the 2007 election - just because (that I know of) no news articles talk about the informal Senate vote being the lowest since federation, doesn't make it non noteable. Timeshift (talk) 09:45, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
- The community may or may not find it relevant, but I thought it was an interesting fact that Bennelong was so close the previous time. If someone doesn't like recently added information, they should start a discussion about it first so others can view it and respond.Lester 09:50, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
- It was discussed above at #1998 Election section. I'll repeat what I said there. He won it comfortably, and the ABC election tallying (during the count) calls Bennelong "safe". [6]. There is an extensive ABC 1998 election at http://www.abc.net.au/election98/default.htm and I'd be surprised if the alleged closeness of Bennelong figured as a news story at all. Peter Ballard (talk) 10:26, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
- What was discussed before was a different issue, a previous line about whether there was a general opinion that the seat was "in doubt". The current information that was deleted was about the fact that Howard required preferences to win his seat. If you dispute the fact as untrue, then let us know. But I fail to see how it is not relevant to a section about Howard and the election.Lester 12:42, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Here's my take ... from what little I know about Australian politics, it's VERY unusual for a sitting prime minister to have to go to preferences at all to win his own seat. Let alone the ninth count. I've since found out (contrary to my previous digging) only happened one other time prior to Howard--in '90, when Bob Hawke only got 48.7 percent on the first count in his own electorate and had to wait until the sixth count to be elected. So we're looking at only four instances that a sitting prime minister has had to go to preferences to be assured of victory, and three of them from only one incumbent--very unusual.Blueboy96 15:23, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
- Indeed. Has anyone actually checked the literature (political journals, etc) to see if this has been discussed anywhere? Orderinchaos 23:06, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
- A seat can be totally safe even if it goes to preferences. Commentary on how often this happens to existing PMs is definitely OR. Good luck finding an RS commenting on it, because the RSs understand that, as I said, a seat can be totally safe even if it goes to preferences. My kids wonder if we now have the first ever world leader called "Kevin". Should we research that and put the (indisputable) facts in the Rudd article? Peter Ballard (talk) 23:41, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Bush
I'm fascinated that the right have managed to scrub the entire article of any reference to Bush, images excluded. Anyway, is this image worthy of adding and if so, where? Timeshift (talk) 14:00, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
- I don't know.. but since his relationship to President Bush was a pivotal factor in his Prime Ministership (and almost certainly, his downfall), it's curious that the only mention of it seems to be in photographs. DEVS EX MACINA pray 14:10, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
- Mind you, i've had those same people try to remove images from time to time... Timeshift (talk) 14:14, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
- There doesn't seem to be an equivalent "group" of editors patrolling the Labor Party / Rudd articles, ready to delete referenced information seconds after it has been added. It's a shame that information about Howard's warm relationship with Bush has been deleted. Regarding the photo, it's an interesting photo, but Howard is not obvious in it. I think there would be better photos that more closely represent the Howard + Bush warmth (down on the ranch, maybe?). Lester 23:21, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
- The image isn't for that purpose. It's an image of a major event, the same event where Kerry Nettle was told to fuck off and die in parliament. Timeshift (talk) 23:45, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
- There doesn't seem to be an equivalent "group" of editors patrolling the Labor Party / Rudd articles, ready to delete referenced information seconds after it has been added. It's a shame that information about Howard's warm relationship with Bush has been deleted. Regarding the photo, it's an interesting photo, but Howard is not obvious in it. I think there would be better photos that more closely represent the Howard + Bush warmth (down on the ranch, maybe?). Lester 23:21, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
- Mind you, i've had those same people try to remove images from time to time... Timeshift (talk) 14:14, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
- Well, there need to be sources for starters. But yes, the eeeeevil "right" is actively patrolling Wikipedia....never forget that. And I'm sure they have everybodies names and addresses as well :-) Shot info (talk) 23:38, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
- Change is to was. Note the mass exodus after 24 November 2007. But they'll be back. Timeshift (talk) 23:46, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
- Hmmm, I can only speculate who "they" are. FWIW we all did discuss that the "noise" would die down after your election, and hey-presto, it did. Now I wonder what it is that your are assuming, I wonder if it is good faith? :-) Shot info (talk) 23:51, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
- My election? And no, i'm not assuming good faith (and you're no angel), oh no call the policy police. Timeshift (talk) 00:08, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
- You are an Australian no? So, Australian election = your election? WRT AGF: Well, as long as you admit it and are clear that you are not engaging in it. After all, it isn't the first lot of policy that you are having problems with, so you may as well add some more to the list :-) Shot info (talk) 00:11, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
- I'm pretty sure reflecting on others actions rather than article improvements is also a policy no-no somewhere... just another to add to your list. Now how about we move on to something constructive eh? Timeshift (talk) 00:20, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
- You got it [7], [8], perhaps starting constructively instead of ponificating, then moving onto it is the next logical step? Shot info (talk) 01:08, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
- I'm pretty sure reflecting on others actions rather than article improvements is also a policy no-no somewhere... just another to add to your list. Now how about we move on to something constructive eh? Timeshift (talk) 00:20, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
- You are an Australian no? So, Australian election = your election? WRT AGF: Well, as long as you admit it and are clear that you are not engaging in it. After all, it isn't the first lot of policy that you are having problems with, so you may as well add some more to the list :-) Shot info (talk) 00:11, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
- My election? And no, i'm not assuming good faith (and you're no angel), oh no call the policy police. Timeshift (talk) 00:08, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
- Hmmm, I can only speculate who "they" are. FWIW we all did discuss that the "noise" would die down after your election, and hey-presto, it did. Now I wonder what it is that your are assuming, I wonder if it is good faith? :-) Shot info (talk) 23:51, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
- Change is to was. Note the mass exodus after 24 November 2007. But they'll be back. Timeshift (talk) 23:46, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
- Well, there need to be sources for starters. But yes, the eeeeevil "right" is actively patrolling Wikipedia....never forget that. And I'm sure they have everybodies names and addresses as well :-) Shot info (talk) 23:38, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
And I continue to fully support those comments as relevant and worthy of discussion. I just came across a new image repository and got some excellent ones up. Being constructive is a good thing, pity more don't do it. Timeshift (talk) 01:27, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Page Move
Is it too early to move this page to "John Howard (Australian Politician)" or "John Winston Howard"? Albatross2147 (talk) 01:06, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- I won't ever support moving Howard to another page. It will take quite a while (if ever) for a more significant John Howard than Howard to take the principle wikipedia page of John Howard. Timeshift (talk) 01:10, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Don't count on it - any american big brother contestant (or similar) named John Howard will be deemed more notable. lol --Merbabu (talk) 01:25, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Notability is defined as being "worthy of note", not numbers, or name recognition. So no, I don't think this page should be moved.--Yeti Hunter (talk) 05:33, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
- Don't count on it - any american big brother contestant (or similar) named John Howard will be deemed more notable. lol --Merbabu (talk) 01:25, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Howard absent from Sorry Day
Someone has reverted the article (here) and deleted the reference to Howard being absent from the National Apology to the Stolen Generation. Howard had been invited, but declined. The information carried a newspaper citation. Unfortunately, the editor who reverted the article didn't wish to start a discussion to involve the community in this debate. Therefore, I will revert the previous reversion of this information. I expect it to be discussed here, with time for community comment, before ny further deletions occur. Thanks, Lester 04:26, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Lester, I agree with the revision. This is a BLP remember, the sentence doesn't match the reference. In fact the only thing from the reference that is in the sentence is that Howard didn't attend. So what do we do when an unsourced addition is made to a BLP. It is removed. Shot info (talk) 04:35, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Doesn't matter to me if it's there or not (I'm not a regular editor of this article), but can you please remove "living" from the paragraph? No one expects dead former prime ministers to show up. ;) Somno (talk) 04:36, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
This is a serious issue. I assume people are here to delete information about Howard that they consider may make him look bad. In doing so, they delete an historic moment in Australia's history, for the sake of cleansing Howard's image. It's not very often that all living Prime Ministers are lined up. Well, all but one. It was an important historic moment that the other PMs were all there, and notable that Howard was absent. Howard was, in fact, taking a morning stroll, and later went to his Sydney office to do some paperwork, according to The Age. There is nothing POV about the original sentence which said that Howard was the only living PM absent. It should be restored immediately.Lester 05:09, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Howard not attending "Sorry Day" is a positive thing to his supporters and a negative thing to his detractors. To state that he was absent from the Parliament when the apology was read is perfectly neutral; adding on junk and opinion from observers is not. So if someone wishes to edit the article, simply say that Howard did not attend the opening of the Parliament and therefore did not hear Rudd's sorry speech. End of story. Michael talk 05:27, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Why, then, is the section which said he was the only living PM not to attend... considered "POV"?Lester 05:32, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Because it singles him out negatively — "was the only one not to attend..." — like it was an inherently bad thing, and, as we all know, one's view on this is inherently subjective. I just said I had no problems adding in that he did not attend, and that it happened to be "Sorry Day" too. Michael talk 05:39, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Why, then, is the section which said he was the only living PM not to attend... considered "POV"?Lester 05:32, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- I'm not sure he was the only one not to attend. I didn't see Fraser anywhere (although all we see is what the cameras picked up, not necessarily everyone who was there). And Hawke, who said he couldn't make it because of an unbreakable prior commitment but would be there in spirit, managed to turn up anyway. -- JackofOz (talk) 05:49, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Fraser was there. In reply to 'Michael' (above): First, is the worry that information might make the subject look negative a reason for deletion? Is this a positive-only article? Second, I don't think the sentence about former PMs in itself was negative. If Howard was the only PM not to attend a lunch with Brian Burke, would that be negative or positive? The fact we said he was the only PM not to attend the national apology isn't in itself negative, unless the reader personally thinks so. By removing the reference to all other former PMs attending, we have deleted all the context.Lester 05:54, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Mr Howard was the only living former prime minister not to attend the formal apology Mr Rudd delivered in federal parliament today.[9] Timeshift (talk) 05:59, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Neutral is neither negative nor positive. When you single Howard out on the spot like that, does our English language make it seem like a negative, positive, or neutral thing? It is decidedly a negative thing due to the wording used. I cannot right now think of a way to word it to avoid such triviality, and, as I have said twice now, I have no problem whatsoever with the article mentioning that Howard declined to attend Parliament for its opening, and therefore did not hear Rudd's sorry speech. Surely this is enough. Michael talk 06:13, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks for the clarification about Fraser. On Howard, are we risking being a little precious here? It's not that we're "singling him out", Michael. He singled himself out by being the only one who chose not to come. If we say elsewhere that Whitlam, Fraser, Hawke and Keating turned up, and say here that Howard didn't, then surely it's going to be obvious to people who read more than one article that he was the only non-attendee, so what's the problem with saying just that. If Howard had been invited as a one-off, then whether he chose to come or not might not have been notable. But all living former PMs were invited, and he was conspicuous by his absence. People can make what they like of the fact of his absence, but it's not POV to merely state a fact that's been widely reported elsewhere anyway. If you want to avoid the language question because you think "only" is somehow negative, we could say "Howard did not attend the apology; all other living former Prime Ministers did". -- JackofOz (talk) 06:23, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- JofOz, firstly, I cannot see in the references where he was invited. Presumably he was, but I cannot see "he was invited, but declined" or something similar. But in saying that, I don't see why we don't have something simple, with no OR, just stating the facts. Unfortunately all the sources all just mention he didn't attend, then wander off into discussing something else. I personally don't really know how to get the OR out of the two facts, "Howard didn't attend the Opening of Parl." and "The PM apologised to the Stolen Gen, during the 2nd sitting of the 42nd Parl." (or something similar). --Shot info (talk) 06:32, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
I am curious if Lester's comment I assume people are here to delete information about Howard that they consider may make him look bad is his version of Assume Good Faith? Should editors start assuming that because he is desperate to include material without sources, that he is interested in making Howard look bad? Is this valid? No, because we assume good faith and Lester, if you just stop with the assumptions, you might find that perhaps you would have better engagement with editors. Shot info (talk) 06:21, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- It is clearly notable that Howard did not attend. All the news sources I have seen mention it. Howard is notable for not doing things. Like not keeping promises. Not realising Australia's participation in the Vietnam was was an error. Not joining up to the military even though he was keen on other mother's sons being forced to do so. Not saying sorry. Albatross2147 (talk) 07:33, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Is it chilly up there? Shot info (talk) 07:46, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Your continual sniping comments are not constructive SI. Timeshift (talk) 08:00, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Lucky I'm not one of your "Liberals" then...hmmmm? Shot info (talk) 11:34, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Your continual sniping comments are not constructive SI. Timeshift (talk) 11:36, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Irony is a noun that escapes you at times, doesn't it? Shot info (talk) 11:39, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Again, your continual sniping comments are not constructive SI. Timeshift (talk) 11:43, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Again, irony is a noun that escapes you at times. Shot info (talk) 11:46, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Knock it off, guys. If you want to take potshots at each other, take it to your talk pages, or, better yet, do it off-site. Sarah 11:50, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Again, irony is a noun that escapes you at times. Shot info (talk) 11:46, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Again, your continual sniping comments are not constructive SI. Timeshift (talk) 11:43, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Irony is a noun that escapes you at times, doesn't it? Shot info (talk) 11:39, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Your continual sniping comments are not constructive SI. Timeshift (talk) 11:36, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Lucky I'm not one of your "Liberals" then...hmmmm? Shot info (talk) 11:34, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Your continual sniping comments are not constructive SI. Timeshift (talk) 08:00, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Is it chilly up there? Shot info (talk) 07:46, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- It is clearly notable that Howard did not attend. All the news sources I have seen mention it. Howard is notable for not doing things. Like not keeping promises. Not realising Australia's participation in the Vietnam was was an error. Not joining up to the military even though he was keen on other mother's sons being forced to do so. Not saying sorry. Albatross2147 (talk) 07:33, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
The wording still needs cleaning up. We are, in effect, saying that Howard was the only former PM not to attend the "Sorry Day" parliament, but we are beating around the bush to say it in more words than necessary, in an attempt not to single Howard out. The Australian and international media state he was the only living former PM not to attend, as could be seen in the supplied references (some have now been removed). We should do the same, and treat this subject as the outside media does. Incidentally, on the Wilson Tuckey info that has been added, there were actually 5 coalition MPs who did not attend. Regards, Lester 18:35, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Well, since Wikipedia isn't a tabloid, sometimes....just sometimes it's prudent to let the sources digest the information and then produce something we can reference....prior to inserting into an article. At the moment, we are suffering from a lack of detailed references informing us of the notability of this "act" and conflicted information (he was invited ... yes, no, everybody says yes, the sources don't agree). Etc. etc. So rather than fall over ourselves to get it right...NOW, why don't we wait for a week or two for the media to do the work? Shot info (talk) 22:34, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Keating attended, but nobody saw fit to include this information in his article. Because it wasn't notable. Can't see how Howard not attending is somehow more notable! --Pete (talk) 02:39, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
- It's a case of odd one out. Whitlam (ALP), Fraser (Lib), Hawke (ALP), and Keating (ALP) all attended. Read the above to see you're in the minority view. Thanks! Timeshift (talk) 02:41, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
- Millions of people didn't attend. Selecting a group just to mention Howard as the exception is contrived. --Pete (talk) 02:44, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
- (ec) :Pete does have a point here - especially given that (correct me if I am wrong) Keating starting the whole ball rolling. I must admit, I'm wondering what the notability is. I understand there if it is notable (as I explain to Lester above) then the RS' eventually will tell us it is notable. Unfortunately at the moment it reads like a bit of trivia about something that Rudd did, and a bunch of others who attended something and then...eventually about the subject of the article...who actually didn't attend. Now if this is notable, we need the sources explaining the notability (which the supplied ones don't do, they just mention he stays away....trivial?). I would presume they will eventually appear so if we don't have the speculation in the BLP for the moment, the article really isn't going to suffer (cue accusations of whitewashing, liberal supporters, bad faith assumptions about editors, and other general soapboxing...). Shot info (talk) 02:46, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
- Millions of people didn't attend. Selecting a group just to mention Howard as the exception is contrived. --Pete (talk) 02:44, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
- What people don't do is sometimes just as significant as what they do do. We mention that, while he was PM, "Howard refrained from making a national apology ... and instead personally expressed "deep sorrow". Should this be changed to mentioning his personal expression of deep sorrow but not saying anything about his refusal to make any sort of apology? -- JackofOz (talk) 07:24, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
- The point being made is that this is an article, a biographical article, about John Howard. I realise some people feel strongly about this, but it seems to me that the only reason the original editor wanted to include John Howard's non-attendance was to include a paragraph about Kevin Rudd's apology in John Howard's article. --Pete (talk) 08:11, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
There's a major flaw in the "delete the negative info because it's a BLP" argument. Too many times the BLP argument is used to justify the deletion of content from political articles. Such deletions would only be valid if there is the possibility of defamation or libel. BLP rules say nothing about removing controversy or only adding positive information about politicians. Nobody is questioning the fact that John Howard was the only living PM absent from Sorry Day. This little fact was world news, and local + international references were provided (now deleted). There is a real problem in Wikipedia political articles of certain editors deleting referenced material because they don't feel it adds to the positive image of the subject. Well cited information that is not disputed factually should remain in the article until there has been time for a full community discussion. Locking the article (on a version with all the information deleted) actually inhibits the discussion. A better alternative would be to unlock the article, and take a stand against editors who delete well referenced facts and sections of the article without bothering to initiate a discussion at the time of the reversion. This is where edit wars begin, and this is what admins should be taking a stand against, in all articles.Lester 13:18, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
- The question isn't whether John Howard was absent from Parliament when Rudd gave his speech. The question is why should there be a paragraph about Rudd's speech at all? This is an article about John Howard. --Pete (talk) 22:20, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I concur with Lester's comments. Generally the article seems deficient in its coverage of the sorry issue which may be regarded as one of the many major controversies of JH's prime ministership. The single paragraph gives no indication of the extent of the controversy and the strength of the campaign in favour of an apology that surrounded this issue. It is because this was a long running theme of his prime ministership that his absence on the day, together with the current leader of the opposition's support for the motion, is significant. Wm (talk) 22:41, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Looking at our articles on other former Prime Ministers, their "life after politics" sections are devoted to actions they took or speeches they made, not things that they didn't do. I see no need to change our practice in this case. --Pete (talk) 22:50, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
- I can't be bothered finding the wiki policy stating the "other pages dont so this shouldnt" argument is invalid. Timeshift (talk) 22:55, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
- That's simply dodging the issue. John Howard didn't attend this event, so including the event in his biographical article is a stretch. Seems to me that some here want to bang on about Kevin Rudd in the John Howard article. --Pete (talk) 23:16, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
- This philosophy seems to explain why we say nothing about Howard's refusal to ratify the Kyoto protocol. There was a brief discussion about in Talk Archive 3, but that seems to be the extent of debate about it here. Please correct me if I've overlooked anything significant. Given the amount of debate his policy position created in the Australian community, this seems an extraordinary omission from any encyclopedic article. And particularly in light of the fact that the very first official act, literally, that his successor made was to ratify the protocol. The same contrast also applies to the sorry statement, which was made on the very first full sitting day of parliament. It's not about political point scoring, but reflecting the wide disparity of views between Howard and whoever his successor was, and reflecting the amount of polarisation in the community that his positions on these and other issues engendered, which contributed in part to his defeat - all well referenced. The story of a Prime Minister's political career does not end on the day he leaves office. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:53, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
- His refusal to ratify the protocol has been the subject of much debate. His absence from the set of countries in with Kyoto is possibly more significant than his presence. Ansell 23:00, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
- Howard was completely anti-saying sorry when he was prime minister. [10] The fact that someone named an article "All living ex-PMs there but one" removes all original research qualms that some people here have. If you attempt to ignore the fact that Howards continued rejection of saying it was an important factor then it appears that there is a neutrality issue. The issue is not that he stayed away from the speech, but that his campaign wasn't united in the end. If there isn't a paragraph about his behaviour in the issue than the encyclopedia is missing something IMO. The paragraph doesn't necessarily have to point out that he was the only one who was stubborn enough not to go, but it should point out at least that he wasn't there and utilise the many sources which reflect on that with respect to his past behaviour. Ansell 23:00, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
- Also, the paragraph doesn't necessarily need to mention Kevin Rudd. We can say that Howard was the only living PM not to attend the national apology to the Stolen Generations (or something like that). The article should be unlocked, so that we have a work-in-progress that editors can contribute to.Lester 09:56, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Quote from The Australian: "John Howard was the only living ex-prime minister to skip yesterday's historic apology to indigenous Australia."
Quote from The Age: "Mr Fraser ... said it would make the apology more significant if former PMs were there to show their support."Lester 14:04, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
- You seem, once again, to have missed the point. There is no problem with finding good sources for Howard's non-attendance at Rudd's speech, but his absence is relevant to the event, not to this biographical article. I note also that Kevin Rudd's article has less material on the event than you want to include in this one, and that the Sorry Day article includes Rudd's speech, but makes no mention of who was or wasn't present.
- May I suggest that if you are so all-fired-up to call an attendance roll, you do so in an appropriate article? You still haven't made any argument as to why this article should have a paragraph on an event Howard didn't attend, except that you'd personally like it to. I also note that there is no concensus for inclusion after a day or two of discussion. --Pete (talk) 17:10, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
- The inclusion of the links to two articles in my previous post was not because I "missed the point", as you say, but to counter the previous claim that it is "OR" (original research) to say that Howard didn't attend Sorry Day. Howard's decision not to attend was world news, and every Australian paper ran stories devoted to that fact alone. Some devoted their cartoons to it. It's time we let all political articles in Wikipedia get both light and shade. Lester 23:03, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
- Howard not attending was a minor point. A sentence or two in pages of coverage. As any Australian editor can see for themselves. Howard not attending Rudd's speech is important only in the context of Rudd's speech. You don't seem to accept that point. You want Howard's article to contain more detail about Rudd's speech than Kevin Rudd's article. You want Howard's biographical article to contain a paragraph about an event that he didn't attend. And you are unable to explain why. --Pete (talk) 00:48, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
- If you (User:Skyring) had read the contribution below, rather than inserting your comment out of sequence, you'd find the explanation you seek (or is this a personal thing between you and User:Lester, where nothing anyone else says has any bearing?. Howard not attending parliament for the Prime Minister's Apology to the Stolen Generations on Behalf of The Parliaments and Governments of Australia is relevant to a biography about Howard because not apologizing was so important to Howard, so important that even when presented the opportunity to let bygones be bygones, Howard turned down the opportunity to be seen to be part of a historic moment for the country he served for so long, and for which he claimed to have such unbridled love. The facts are that as a living ex-PM, Howard was invited to join other living ex-PMs to be present, and he rejected the invitation. That is the fact that needs recording. Eyedubya (talk) 02:48, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
- Whatever one's politics, any objective account of Howard's life must include information about his attitudes towards the issue of the stolen generations. His stance on the stolen generations was a central part of his public persona and objectively, was a defining element of his Prime Ministership. Whatever one may think about the issue of the stolen generations, it was an important issue for Howard. Howard engaged in a paradoxical position: On the one hand, saying sorry was merely 'symbolic' and of no material benefit, yet if it was only symbolic, then why not double the political kudos by adding symbolism to the 'practical' reconciliation policies he said he was interested in? Howard's ability to make the most of photo-opportunities at events whose only substantive value was 'symbolic' (e.g. cricket matches, the Sydney Olympics) was one of his most noteworthy practices. So when someone who is so highly attuned to the symbolic dimension turns down an invitation to attend an event of such national importance, it is relevant to his biography. In other words, the even that needs to be recorded in Howard's biography is his rejection of the invitation to attend. Thus, Howard's non-attendance at an event that was attended by all other living PMs constitutes a notable event relevant to this component of Howard's biography. His absence is as relevant to the event itself as it is to an article about his life, which is also necessarily an article about his politics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eyedubya (talk • contribs) 23:42, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Is anyone actually objecting besides usual suspects Shot Info and Skyring? Timeshift (talk) 00:18, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
- Feel like refactoring this per WP:CIVIL or would you rather it end up over at WP:ANI? Shot info (talk) 02:50, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Let's step back for a second. Does two editors not moving an inch constitute lack of consensus? If no, then perhaps we need to go to further means to stop their crusade. Timeshift (talk) 02:32, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- Or three even, will be interesting to see if you have the intestinal fortitude to put your money where your mouth is :-) Shot info (talk) 02:57, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Howard and the stolen generations, the place of Indigenous Australians in the constitution, etc etc etc
Perhaps the issue of Howard's rejection of the invitation to join other living ex-PMs for the Apology to the Stolen Generations would be better dealt with under a section that deals more broadly with Howard's policy approach on indigenous Australians, as the current article is very superficial on this topic - to say (as the article now says) that Howard 'refrained' from apologizing is Weasel words. He is on record as saying that he didn't believe in apologzing for a variety of reasons, and its well-known that his party was deeply divided on this issue, so it behoves a serious encyclopedia to cover this issue in much greater detail. Eyedubya (talk) 03:06, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
- Hi Eyedubya, I'm going to go out on a limb here and ask if there was an invite for him to reject? I haven't seen anything in the actual references provided (to date) and I'm wondering if anybody has the actual link? Ta --Shot info (talk) 03:11, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
- According to this report, dated Feb 8, he had been asked by the press whether he would be attending and stated that: "I won't be in Canberra next week" but declined to answer further questions. Is there a reference that indicates that he wanted to attend and was prevented from doing so? Wm (talk) 03:34, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
- So, there we are, that settles it. That reference also provides some of the history of Howard's relationship with the issue of the apology, though of course a full WP entry on it would have a vast array of sources to draw upon. Its actually quite surprising that there is so little on HOward's indigenous policies, given the strength of his beliefs - whether one agrees with them or not, he has at least been clear where he stands. Perhaps the people who've been writing this page are too worried that HOward's views make him look bad? Why so? That betrays a sympathy for the opposing view, surely! Must be hard being objective when you're a fan. Eyedubya (talk) 04:26, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
- ... And here is how the issue was reported in the UK in the national press [[11]]. Howard's intending non-attendance is noted at the bottom of the article. Eyedubya (talk) 08:16, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
- According to this report, dated Feb 8, he had been asked by the press whether he would be attending and stated that: "I won't be in Canberra next week" but declined to answer further questions. Is there a reference that indicates that he wanted to attend and was prevented from doing so? Wm (talk) 03:34, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
The NZ Herald also devoted an article to Howard's non-attendance (for those who claim it is a non-notable event). Note also, that this article quotes Malcolm Fraser (before Sorry Day) publicly calling for all former PMs to attend. Looking back at all the comments above, there have been many editors who have commented, and the overwhelming majority support inclusion of a mention of Howard's non-attendance at Sorry Day, though some editors wish to debate the wording. The only editors to want complete omission of the information are 'Skyring(Pete)' and 'Shot info'. Reasons given by Skyring and Shot info for omission include 'not-notable', 'editors adding the information are POV pushers', 'the information is original research', 'breaches BLP rules', and 'Howard wasn't invited, so his absence should not be mentioned'. So they have provided 5 reasons they feel the information should be omitted.Lester 20:44, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
- I really cannot see how simply stating that Howard did not attend can be considered POV. Is this a political issue for some of us? How can it be 'original research'? No-one invented the fact. It is certainly noteworthy - no question of that. There have been almighty edit wars over facts far less important.--Gazzster (talk) 21:08, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
- (ec) I would respond to Lester as follows:
- not-notable - it has actually been written and talked about in hundreds of places in the media
- Doesn't fit with even the most liberal definition of non-notable (ie, more than one independent source) Ansell 21:53, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
- editors adding the information are POV pushers - the only POV is the POV that says that factual and sourced material can and should be included, particularly where it's been the subject of much commentary
- Accusations about specific groups of editors who oppose ones view being POV are WP:CIVIL violations in my opinion and should not be part of the discussion at all. Ansell 21:53, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
- the information is original research - see "Howard wasn't invited" below
- breaches BLP rules - it might cast Howard in a negative light in the eyes of some, but choosing to include only positive information about a living person is not the right approach. Please specify exactly which BLP rule would be breached.
- Goes directly against NPOV to have any undue bias towards favourable material. Ansell 21:53, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
- Howard wasn't invited, so his absence should not be mentioned - it's possible he wasn't formally invited by the government, but Fraser certainly called on all ex-PMs to turn up. In that sense, he was most definitely 'invited', and chose not to attend. An invitation doesn't have to come from the person hosting the event. Whether Howard had a previous engagement or whatever is something we don't know, because he's made no public statement about the issue. But it's a fact that an invitation was issued and for whatever reason Howard did not come, and his absence was the subject of much media commentary. To record those facts is not original research. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:11, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
- All of their concerns have been noted and reliable sources have been given to rebutt their opinions. It is worrying that they refer to POV pushing, without saying why it is right to have favourable material but not unfavourable material. BLP say nothing about referenced negative material. Negative light to me sounds like a partisan opinion, not an encyclopaedic neutral article. It has been established that it was not original research for some time now, but opposition to the fact are still able to claim that there is apparently not consensus after a few days of discussion. Also, claiming editors in general are POV pushers for inserting reliably referenced content is more uncivil than the comment which was objected to in the above section IMO, though pointing out said (or other) editors is not nice. Not notable has been clearly rebutted by national and international sources, and when combined with many references of the media asking him to say sorry when he was prime minister is clearly an issue worthy of his biographical article here.
- This discussion is quite remarkable, if only because it is clearly a personal issue that Howard has had with saying sorry over a number of years as Prime Minister, followed by his choice not to say sorry when the rest of the country did it after he didn't make it back into parliament for the first time in 12 years. If the media aren't questioning whether Howard should have been there, why should wikipedia editors be performing original research to determine whether it should be questioned and not included here. Neutral editing based on sources anyone? Ansell 21:53, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Does anyone know that Howard was not invited? It would be incredible that he would not be, especially if it would give Labor an opportunity to make him look bad and exacerbate divisions within the Opposition?--Gazzster (talk) 22:26, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
- Its POV to claim that there is only one possible interpretation of a fact such as Howard's absence - i.e. that it necessarily makes the man look bad. To his supporters and sympathisers, he probably did the right thing, and to them, this is yet another example of Howard having consistent, deeply-felt convictions that he is prepared to enact courageously in the face of populism. For Howard's fans, this kind of action is what made him a 'great man'. But then, to enable such interpretations to be possible, the facts of Howard's life need to be recorded. His absence at such a significant national event is an important fact in an encylcopedic biography about him. NPOV must mean that WP BLPs can't be hagiographies, such a reverential bias would be an extreme violation of this core principle. Eyedubya (talk) 01:35, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- I agree with Eyedubya's original comment, "Perhaps the issue of Howard's rejection of the invitation to join other living ex-PMs for the Apology to the Stolen Generations would be better dealt with under a section that deals more broadly with Howard's policy approach on indigenous Australians". i.e., expand the issue of his non-apology, and as a postscript to that section note he did not attend Rudd's apology. The reason for this is I believe Howard's non-attendance was unremarkable - it would have been far more notable if he HAD attended - given his earlier stubborness on the issue. So his non-attendence deserves to be in the article, but fits better in a section on Howard and aboriginal issues. Peter Ballard (talk) 02:16, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- Put it in the appropriate article, where Rudd's speech is significant, and Howard's absence notable. All in context. But as we see above, there is any amount of spurious argument and misdirection. Whether some see it as positive or negative is not the issue. The question is, why a biographical article on John Howard should even contain a paragraph devoted to a speech by Kevin Rudd. Which Howard didn't attend. Forget all the political talk, and look on it as encyclopaedia editors. --Pete (talk) 02:24, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- I suggested a new section on Indigenous policy because its lacking - bar the section on the NT Intervention, which is not the sum total of Howard's thinking on this at all. Howard's non-attendance at the Apology has nothing to do with Kevin Rudd, it has everything to do with HOward's convictions about the symbolism of the Apology: Howard believed that to apologise would symbolise 'inter-generational guilt', and because he didn't believe in intergenerational guilt, he refused to apologise. HOwever, it has to be understood that this view of what the Apology symbolises is only one view, and it is not the view embodied in the actual wording of the Apology that was given last week. The Apology as given accepts responsibility on behalf of Australian Parliaments and Governments - not a specific race, ethnic or genetically related group that could be regarded as being 'intergenerationally' guilty by hereditary association. Howard's views on the symbolism of the Apology provide insight into the way that racialised thinking works, and how easily many, many people mistake a political process for a racial one. While none of this warrants coverage in a bio on Howard, it does explain why his non-attendance is an important part of his biography. Just imagine, as suggested, that Howard had attended. What would that symbolise? One thing that many would read into it is that he had changed his mind, found something new inside him. All very new age and warm and fuzzy. But it would also be read as him admitting to the very thing he denied he believed in - intergenerational (i.e. racial) guilt - a kind of 'White man's burden' sort of thing, which would leave all of those who share such a view left without a champion for their resistance. Just because the section is titled 'After politics', doesn't mean that HOward has suddenly become an apolitical being! Far from it! He's still an icon for his tribe, and its absolutely important that he's seen to continue to 'hold the line' on certain matters - 'intergenerational guilt' being one of them. Eyedubya (talk) 03:34, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- We're writing an encylopaedia, not conducting a political debate. Your beliefs and your opinions aren't actually worth anything here. Nor are mine. --Pete (talk) 09:59, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- I can't help thinking that some contributors are anxious to protect the ex-prime minister from possible criticism. I still do not understand: what the hell is wrong with saying: 'John Howard was the only ex-prime minister who did not attend Parliament that day?' It is a fact! No interpretation is drawn from it.--Gazzster (talk) 10:20, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- Maybe I've missed something, but it seems to me that one of the main issues for those arguing against the inclusion of this fact is that it allows a negative interpretation, and that its WP policy (BLP) not to do so - at least that's the argument being put forward. There are also some who argue that its not about Howard enough, its more about Rudd, so therefore, doesn't warrant inclusion. For mine, both arguments are in error. Eyedubya (talk) 11:08, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- First rule of editing- there is no such thing as a neutral statement. Every edit, no matter how insignificant, has a POV. The question then becomes, how relevant or valid is the POV? The statement that John Howard did not attend Parliament on that significant day cannot avoid attracting POV. Neither, indeed, can the argument to ommit that statement. We then have to ask how significant is the imputation on either side? I suggest that the imputation about not accepting his invitation is very significant indeed.--Gazzster (talk) 11:26, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- Maybe I've missed something, but it seems to me that one of the main issues for those arguing against the inclusion of this fact is that it allows a negative interpretation, and that its WP policy (BLP) not to do so - at least that's the argument being put forward. There are also some who argue that its not about Howard enough, its more about Rudd, so therefore, doesn't warrant inclusion. For mine, both arguments are in error. Eyedubya (talk) 11:08, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- I can't help thinking that some contributors are anxious to protect the ex-prime minister from possible criticism. I still do not understand: what the hell is wrong with saying: 'John Howard was the only ex-prime minister who did not attend Parliament that day?' It is a fact! No interpretation is drawn from it.--Gazzster (talk) 10:20, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- We're writing an encylopaedia, not conducting a political debate. Your beliefs and your opinions aren't actually worth anything here. Nor are mine. --Pete (talk) 09:59, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- I suggested a new section on Indigenous policy because its lacking - bar the section on the NT Intervention, which is not the sum total of Howard's thinking on this at all. Howard's non-attendance at the Apology has nothing to do with Kevin Rudd, it has everything to do with HOward's convictions about the symbolism of the Apology: Howard believed that to apologise would symbolise 'inter-generational guilt', and because he didn't believe in intergenerational guilt, he refused to apologise. HOwever, it has to be understood that this view of what the Apology symbolises is only one view, and it is not the view embodied in the actual wording of the Apology that was given last week. The Apology as given accepts responsibility on behalf of Australian Parliaments and Governments - not a specific race, ethnic or genetically related group that could be regarded as being 'intergenerationally' guilty by hereditary association. Howard's views on the symbolism of the Apology provide insight into the way that racialised thinking works, and how easily many, many people mistake a political process for a racial one. While none of this warrants coverage in a bio on Howard, it does explain why his non-attendance is an important part of his biography. Just imagine, as suggested, that Howard had attended. What would that symbolise? One thing that many would read into it is that he had changed his mind, found something new inside him. All very new age and warm and fuzzy. But it would also be read as him admitting to the very thing he denied he believed in - intergenerational (i.e. racial) guilt - a kind of 'White man's burden' sort of thing, which would leave all of those who share such a view left without a champion for their resistance. Just because the section is titled 'After politics', doesn't mean that HOward has suddenly become an apolitical being! Far from it! He's still an icon for his tribe, and its absolutely important that he's seen to continue to 'hold the line' on certain matters - 'intergenerational guilt' being one of them. Eyedubya (talk) 03:34, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Sins of commission or omission?
The idea that the sum-total of positive 'appearances' and 'actions' by anyone is the only material relevant to their biography is a very suspect idea indeed. Taken to its logical limit, it would mean a statistical analysis of all of the recorded appearances at public events in the person's life as a public figure. In which case, this article is sadly lacking. Surely, HOward's appearance at cricket matches and other sporting events, ANZAC day ceremonies and press calls are actually the statistically dominant 'events' of his life, and these are what this biography should record. It would be interesting to see what picture would emerge if this idea were applied rigourously.
However, on the basis of at least two discussions going on above, what's really needed in this article on Howard (and maybe other PMs as well) is a section on 'Politics by omission'. Such a section would cover all those notable policy areas where there was significant debate and the incumbent refused to act, or where others acted, and the action of the incumbent was to nullify others' policy implementation, or where others' acted. 'No change' can be brought about or symbolised by not-acting or by acting to render others' actions void. Howard was wont to deploy both of these 'non-actions' to maintain the status quo or even to allow aspects of the status quo to flourish. A section like this would collate instances currently listed within the article, and add relevant new ones. Examples would include not seeking some kind of sanction against Hanson after her maiden speech, not-signing Kyoto, not apologising to the Stolen Generations, invalidating state and territory laws to rectify discrimination against same-sex couples, invalidating NT laws on euthanasia, not attending various important global forums on climate change, and of course, not attending the national apology to the Stolen Generations despite a very public invitation to do so from his own side of politics. Eyedubya (talk) 03:13, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- Or we could just wait and see what the verifiable reliable sources publish and use it in a biography of a living person?
And of course, HOward structured the referendum on an Australian Republic so that he could do both at once - he acted in such a way in order that nothing would happen, nothing would change. It is this kind of fact about Howard's skills as a politician which need recording in a biography, so that his time in office and all of his achievements, whether one likes them or not, can be understood. Eyedubya (talk) 03:34, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- And what does Wikipedia policy tell us to do? Shot info (talk) 03:39, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- Which policy in particular are you interested in knowing about? Unless you can be specifici, such a question's a bit like the proverbial piece of string ... Eyedubya (talk) 03:44, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- You can add what you want, anything really but as long as it is backed up with V RS' suitable for a BLP. If they are drawn from acceptable sources, I don't see why they are not acceptable. One quibble however, normally people are notable for what they do, as opposed for what they don't do. Surely it's easier on biographies to do it this way rather than saying "John Howard didn't go to the moon. John Howard didn't win gold at the 1972, 76, 80, 84, 88, 92, 96, 2000, 04 Olympics. John Howard hasn't applied for a sex change operation." etc. etc. Sure these are ridiculous examples (as they are meant to be) but they are meant to show that it's a little easier, biographical and within policy to kind of keep it to what the subject is notable for? Shot info (talk) 03:57, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- Neither did any of our 26 PMs. Or all of our living PMs. But I do know of one event all our living PMs went to. Oh, except one, noted in many places on many news sites. Some people just don't get it... Timeshift (talk) 03:58, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- Probably best to stick to the subject thread TS, just to stay relevant, rather than not getting it. Shot info (talk) 04:01, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- Who's discussing moon travel, olympics, and sex changes? Timeshift (talk) 04:06, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- As befits "nonactions", you know, what is being discussed above? Probably better for the discussion if you look at the rest of the thread before continuing. Shot info (talk) 04:09, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- And of course moon travel, olympics, and sex changes are in the same ballpark as attending parliament for sorry day, as all living PM/former PMs did, bar one... Timeshift (talk) 04:36, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- Focus TS, take some deep breaths, concentrate...focus, you can do it... Shot info (talk) 04:39, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- Anyone for CIVILITY? I wonder who it is that's not getting it here? Perhaps Shot Infor ought to read the preceding more carefully before attempting to chasten others! How very ironic ... anyway ... there is plenty written above that rebuts the issue of people being notable for what they do. But to re-iterate, sometimes its what people don't do that makes them notable. Such not doings that are notable are not attending events where one's attendance was requested or where it would be seen to say something either one way or another by one's attendance or non-attendance. or, to not act when there are calls to act, or not say something when there are calls to say something. So, not censuring Hanson's maiden speech was a significant lack of action by HOward that was noted not only by Australia's national press, but many overseas. Many people did say lots of things about Hanson, and many said nothing, but one of the few people who's lack of action in relation to the speech actually had significance, was that of John Howard. And this has nothing to do whether you think Hanson had a point, whether she was right, whether HOward was right - the issue that was notable was that he refused to do something, and that refusal to do something was more powerful politically than what he did do which was say very little. Not doing things is one of HOward's most notable traits as a politician. But I'm not saying this analysis needs to be in the article, just the facts about those instances of Howard's not doing that have been notable enough for media-wide documentation. It is disingenuous to argue that the category called all the things John Howard didn't do is the same as specific things John HOward didn't do that many people thought he should have and which were reported in the national and international media. Please ... can we elevate the terms of discussion a little? Eyedubya (talk) 04:42, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- As I stated above, you can add what you want, as long as it is backed up with reliable sources suitable for a biography of a living person. I'll drop my examples as it's clear that the focus is on the examples rather than on merits of any edits per se. So, to reiterate, since the article is locked, place your proposed edits here (or in a new section) and see what people have to say. Alternatively, wait for unlocking and then make your edits. Ta --Shot info (talk) 04:48, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- Anyone for CIVILITY? I wonder who it is that's not getting it here? Perhaps Shot Infor ought to read the preceding more carefully before attempting to chasten others! How very ironic ... anyway ... there is plenty written above that rebuts the issue of people being notable for what they do. But to re-iterate, sometimes its what people don't do that makes them notable. Such not doings that are notable are not attending events where one's attendance was requested or where it would be seen to say something either one way or another by one's attendance or non-attendance. or, to not act when there are calls to act, or not say something when there are calls to say something. So, not censuring Hanson's maiden speech was a significant lack of action by HOward that was noted not only by Australia's national press, but many overseas. Many people did say lots of things about Hanson, and many said nothing, but one of the few people who's lack of action in relation to the speech actually had significance, was that of John Howard. And this has nothing to do whether you think Hanson had a point, whether she was right, whether HOward was right - the issue that was notable was that he refused to do something, and that refusal to do something was more powerful politically than what he did do which was say very little. Not doing things is one of HOward's most notable traits as a politician. But I'm not saying this analysis needs to be in the article, just the facts about those instances of Howard's not doing that have been notable enough for media-wide documentation. It is disingenuous to argue that the category called all the things John Howard didn't do is the same as specific things John HOward didn't do that many people thought he should have and which were reported in the national and international media. Please ... can we elevate the terms of discussion a little? Eyedubya (talk) 04:42, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- Focus TS, take some deep breaths, concentrate...focus, you can do it... Shot info (talk) 04:39, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- And of course moon travel, olympics, and sex changes are in the same ballpark as attending parliament for sorry day, as all living PM/former PMs did, bar one... Timeshift (talk) 04:36, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- As befits "nonactions", you know, what is being discussed above? Probably better for the discussion if you look at the rest of the thread before continuing. Shot info (talk) 04:09, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- Who's discussing moon travel, olympics, and sex changes? Timeshift (talk) 04:06, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- Probably best to stick to the subject thread TS, just to stay relevant, rather than not getting it. Shot info (talk) 04:01, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- Neither did any of our 26 PMs. Or all of our living PMs. But I do know of one event all our living PMs went to. Oh, except one, noted in many places on many news sites. Some people just don't get it... Timeshift (talk) 03:58, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- You can add what you want, anything really but as long as it is backed up with V RS' suitable for a BLP. If they are drawn from acceptable sources, I don't see why they are not acceptable. One quibble however, normally people are notable for what they do, as opposed for what they don't do. Surely it's easier on biographies to do it this way rather than saying "John Howard didn't go to the moon. John Howard didn't win gold at the 1972, 76, 80, 84, 88, 92, 96, 2000, 04 Olympics. John Howard hasn't applied for a sex change operation." etc. etc. Sure these are ridiculous examples (as they are meant to be) but they are meant to show that it's a little easier, biographical and within policy to kind of keep it to what the subject is notable for? Shot info (talk) 03:57, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- Which policy in particular are you interested in knowing about? Unless you can be specifici, such a question's a bit like the proverbial piece of string ... Eyedubya (talk) 03:44, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- The Russians did not land a man on the moon before the Americans.
- Martin Luther did not obey the pope's instructions to stop his new ideas.
- The French and Germans did not support the Coalition against Iraq
- Julius Caesar did not follow advice given him on the Ides of March.
- Archduke Franz Ferdinand did not follow the planned route the day he was shot.
These are significant examples of someone not doing something. While Johnny not going to Parliament may not be in that league, it is certainly significant. After all, we'll all talking about it, aren't we?--Gazzster (talk) 06:04, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- It's a matter of context, as I keep saying. Significant in an article about Rudd's speech. Irrelevant in a biographical article. --Pete (talk) 10:09, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
John Winston Howard refused an invitation to attend the event. So yes, he was invited, and refused. And was the only living PM not to attend. So... Timeshift (talk) 10:05, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
See above. --Pete (talk) 10:09, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
I can't help thinking that some contributors are anxious to protect the ex-prime minister from possible criticism. I still do not understand: what the hell is wrong with saying: 'John Howard was the only ex-prime minister who did not attend Parliament that day?' It is a fact! No interpretation is drawn from it.--Gazzster (talk) 10:20, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- It's not a matter of criticism or praise. It's a matter of keeping Kevin Rudd's speech out of John Howard's biographical article. It doesn't belong here in this article. It has a legitimate and important part elsewhere, however, and in such a place, yes of course Howard's absence is significant. --Pete (talk) 10:30, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- Ok, sure, but how can you possibly avoid mentioning his absence without mentioning Parliament's address to the Stolen Generation?--Gazzster (talk) 10:45, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- This issue of 'context' is a furphy. The only reason HOward warrants a biography on WP is because he's a politician. Thus, those events in his life that relate to his politics are relevant to his biography. Its only because the current state of the article is a highly sanitised version of HOward's politics that anyone can possibly argue that the issue of the Apology to the Stolen Generations has nothing to do with Howard. Its a fact that Howard was urged to make the apology, and he could have done it, and his refusal to do it lead to his successor as PM doing it, along with his successor as Leader of the Libs also doing it on behalf of his side of politics. If Beazley had been elected, it'd have been him doing it, and if Turnbull had beaten Nelson, he'd have been the one to respond. HOward not only boycotted Rudd, but he absented himself from his own party's part in the Apology, he rejected the invitation of his predecessor Fraser. Its not all about keeping Rudd out of HOward's bio, is it? Howard's boycott of parliament can easily be included without mentioning Rudd. All that needs to be said is that HOward rejected the call from Fraser to attend the parliamentary apology ... Eyedubya (talk) 11:20, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- 'The only reason Howard warrants a biography on WP is because he's a politician. Thus, those events in his life that relate to his politics are relevant to his biography'. But what is his refusal but a political statement? Do you think ex-prime ministers cease to be involved in politics after they quit Parliament? Whitlam, Fraser, Hawke and Keating continue to be political figures.--Gazzster (talk) 11:33, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- You don't need to tell me that - that's precisely the point I'm making (albeit perhaps not as clearly as I could). So, yes, HOward's political actions post-incumbency warrant inlcusion in his biography - that's what I'm saying. Isn't that what you're saying, or are we writing at cross-purposes here? Eyedubya (talk) 11:38, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- 'The only reason Howard warrants a biography on WP is because he's a politician. Thus, those events in his life that relate to his politics are relevant to his biography'. But what is his refusal but a political statement? Do you think ex-prime ministers cease to be involved in politics after they quit Parliament? Whitlam, Fraser, Hawke and Keating continue to be political figures.--Gazzster (talk) 11:33, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- This issue of 'context' is a furphy. The only reason HOward warrants a biography on WP is because he's a politician. Thus, those events in his life that relate to his politics are relevant to his biography. Its only because the current state of the article is a highly sanitised version of HOward's politics that anyone can possibly argue that the issue of the Apology to the Stolen Generations has nothing to do with Howard. Its a fact that Howard was urged to make the apology, and he could have done it, and his refusal to do it lead to his successor as PM doing it, along with his successor as Leader of the Libs also doing it on behalf of his side of politics. If Beazley had been elected, it'd have been him doing it, and if Turnbull had beaten Nelson, he'd have been the one to respond. HOward not only boycotted Rudd, but he absented himself from his own party's part in the Apology, he rejected the invitation of his predecessor Fraser. Its not all about keeping Rudd out of HOward's bio, is it? Howard's boycott of parliament can easily be included without mentioning Rudd. All that needs to be said is that HOward rejected the call from Fraser to attend the parliamentary apology ... Eyedubya (talk) 11:20, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- Ok, sure, but how can you possibly avoid mentioning his absence without mentioning Parliament's address to the Stolen Generation?--Gazzster (talk) 10:45, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- comment Howards stance on saying sorry was a long held position, while in government he made speeches towards recognition of past events yet separately and explicitly expressed on many occasions that the Australian Government(people) should not say sorry. His non attendance should be covered in that overall context as his public stance on a significant issue during his time as a politician and as a post script to the election loss. It's inclusion isnt judgmental(NPOV) of the person but its relevant to the overall context of the politician JH and the time period in which he was head of the Government. <crystal ball> IMHO the saying of sorry will have an affect on the way in which future governments act and the way in which the first 100 years of Australia will be reviewed. JH will be recognisable for his association with these events, much like Robert Menzies is noted more for his government actions at the beginning of WWII than the longer period after it. </crystal ball> Gnangarra 15:14, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks Gnan, your comments as a valued admin are always welcome. How do you propose we break the impasse when the usual suspects refuse to budge? No compromise from their side is hindering any hope of consensus on this issue. Timeshift (talk) 15:43, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- For the 2 editors who keep deleting the information, Skyring(Pete) and Shot Info, you are not acknowledging when each of your objections has been solved. For example, the claim of original research was solved with extra references. The objection that Howard wasn't invited has been solved with extra research. but you leave them behind and move to new objections. Lester 16:41, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- Maybe you two are away with the fairies, but so far the only arguments advanced as a reason to include Kevin Rudd's speech in John Howard's article have been extremely tenuous. Nobody, despite Lester's insistence, denies that there are good sources for Howard's non-attendance. The question isn't sources but relevance. As for whether he was invited, but declined to attend, if we used that as a criterion for inclusion, then the articles of every public figure would be full of trivia and rubbish about events and causes of spurious relevance to the biographical subject. No, Lester, you haven't even attempted to address my objections, repeatedly expressed here. If you don't understand, say so. If you are ignoring my objections and hoping to kid others that there are no problems remaining, I'm happy to highlight your dishonesty.
- And may I politely suggest to the editor who refers to the subject of this article as "HOward", don't act surprised if nobody takes you seriously. --Pete (talk) 20:58, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- It is certainly relevant. I don't know how anyone could say it isn't. If I might politely suggest, perhaps you are putting too much emphasis on Kevin Rudd's speech. Sure, he read the address, because he's the prime minister. But it was as a bi-partisan act. It was the act of the Parliament of the nation, not of a single man. And it is of course significant that an ex-prime-minister, and one which opposed this act, should stay away.--Gazzster (talk) 21:14, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- And may I politely suggest to the editor who refers to the subject of this article as "HOward", don't act surprised if nobody takes you seriously. --Pete (talk) 20:58, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- May I politely suggest that the question of relevance has been amply established to the satisfaction of most people in this debate. On Insiders yesterday (4 days after the event, which mightn't seem much, but a week is a long time in politics), Glenn Milne, not known for any left-leaning sympathies, when asked if Howard should have been there, said "Of course he should have been there", and went on to explain why. Not that Milne's opinion per se carries any weight as far as this discussion here is concerned - and WP of course takes no position as to whether Howard "should or should not" have been there - but the very discussion on that program (and many others; I assume it was also covered by Laurie Oakes on Sunday but I've given up on that program since Jim Waley left) shows it's notable and highly relevant. Maybe we should cut to the chase, and recognise that a consensus on this matter has been well demonstrated. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:27, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- Relevance in other articles, sure. Articles about the event. Articles about Kevin Rudd. But not here in this article. It wasn't a part of Howard's life, and regardless of whether commentators thought he should have attended, the fact remains that he didn't. --Pete (talk) 21:33, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- May I politely suggest that the question of relevance has been amply established to the satisfaction of most people in this debate. On Insiders yesterday (4 days after the event, which mightn't seem much, but a week is a long time in politics), Glenn Milne, not known for any left-leaning sympathies, when asked if Howard should have been there, said "Of course he should have been there", and went on to explain why. Not that Milne's opinion per se carries any weight as far as this discussion here is concerned - and WP of course takes no position as to whether Howard "should or should not" have been there - but the very discussion on that program (and many others; I assume it was also covered by Laurie Oakes on Sunday but I've given up on that program since Jim Waley left) shows it's notable and highly relevant. Maybe we should cut to the chase, and recognise that a consensus on this matter has been well demonstrated. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:27, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- On an aside, I have asked for better sources for the edit, mainly as all sources that editors claim say "he was invited" actually don't have the words invite, invited, invitation or similar combinations. So please, rather than just assuming there is some hidden agenda here, stop the original research and add sources to match the assertions. As for Lester and TS' confused cries that I don't want the information in the article, perhaps you need to look at previous edits, were I pared back the original OR edit to match the source - and this of course was mainly about Rudd's speech, so without additional sources to show it's significance, other editors removed it...per BLP. So here we are, there is no objection to the addition of the information but please, have some sources because at the moment assertion is not a source. Shot info (talk) 21:30, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- A source supplied by Timeshift above, does indeed use the word invitation, in the sentence: John Winston Howard refused an invitation to attend the event. Your conciliatory remarks, which I do think some people may have missed, are appreciated though. Wm (talk) 22:44, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks Wm, unfortunately there is some tarbrushing going on by those blinded by their hatred of Howard so much that they are willing to ignore the normal rules of Wikipedia and are willing to splash a bit of vitriol over any editors that doesn't necessarily agree with their (or their political master's) POV. Yes, I read this report and given other discussions about OpEds and their use in political discussions, I merely assumed TS was being facetious (like his atypical dismissible comments below). Again, I call for a source rather than a political commentator saying it is so. After all, if there was an invite, why hasn't the media taken it on board and instead have couched their phraseology to avoid the specific word? Instead the trump source is from a OpEd piece? In this regard I am of the opinion that Milne has made it up (especially since there was discussion on Insiders about the same point with others questioning Milne "how do you know he was invited" and Milne responded with "Come on..." or some other similar claim to authority). So without a media (as opposed to a OdEd) source, I am of the opinion that Milne is using a bit of editorial largesse. Shot info (talk) 23:00, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- A source supplied by Timeshift above, does indeed use the word invitation, in the sentence: John Winston Howard refused an invitation to attend the event. Your conciliatory remarks, which I do think some people may have missed, are appreciated though. Wm (talk) 22:44, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- On an aside, I have asked for better sources for the edit, mainly as all sources that editors claim say "he was invited" actually don't have the words invite, invited, invitation or similar combinations. So please, rather than just assuming there is some hidden agenda here, stop the original research and add sources to match the assertions. As for Lester and TS' confused cries that I don't want the information in the article, perhaps you need to look at previous edits, were I pared back the original OR edit to match the source - and this of course was mainly about Rudd's speech, so without additional sources to show it's significance, other editors removed it...per BLP. So here we are, there is no objection to the addition of the information but please, have some sources because at the moment assertion is not a source. Shot info (talk) 21:30, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- The Federal Government has invited about 100 special guests, including members of the Stolen Generations and the five former prime ministers., or, Mr Howard resisted such a move for a decade and even declined an invitation to attend today's ceremony., and the original, John Winston Howard refused an invitation to attend the event refused an invitation. But keep denying it to yourself, and ignore the comments of Gnangarra, the admin above shall we?. Timeshift (talk) 23:03, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- "John Winston Howard refused an invitation to attend the event". So yes, he was invited, and refused. And let's just ignore Gnangarra, an admins, comments above shall we? Never let the truth get in the way of a good whitewashing. Timeshift (talk) 22:43, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- It wasn't someone elses event, it was parliament's event. Also, read Gnangarra's, an admins, contribution above re relevance. It is completely relevant and noteable for Howard's article. But like Lester says, from one objection to the next... and then there's your COI which i'm now allowed to mention, which if I did, I believe i'd be in danger of being swamped by A...dmins, which if I did would totally destroy your credibility on this specific issue. Timeshift (talk) 23:34, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think there's any point in trying to convince disbelievers about this. Nor do we need to. All the arguments are out there, and people can make what they like of them. Consensus does not have to equal unanimity, and what we clearly have here is a consensus. Let's put it in the article and move on. -- JackofOz (talk) 23:52, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- I agree, and now that the party apparatchiks have finally sourced some of their assertions. FWIW, in my opinion, what TS proposes below is suitable (with a little bit of tweaking) per BLP and WEIGHT. Shot info (talk) 00:03, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
- That was all I have been asking for. A summary of his attitudes and actions to the issue. Each point in that paragraph can be referenced by sources quoted here already. Ansell 06:16, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
- I agree, and now that the party apparatchiks have finally sourced some of their assertions. FWIW, in my opinion, what TS proposes below is suitable (with a little bit of tweaking) per BLP and WEIGHT. Shot info (talk) 00:03, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think there's any point in trying to convince disbelievers about this. Nor do we need to. All the arguments are out there, and people can make what they like of them. Consensus does not have to equal unanimity, and what we clearly have here is a consensus. Let's put it in the article and move on. -- JackofOz (talk) 23:52, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
"...balloons showing the extent of electioneering in Bennelong"
Does anyone object to the removal or changing of this possibly POV description of the photo in the 2007 election section? Lots of "electioneering" went on in all electorates, by all parties. Yeti Hunter (talk) 05:42, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
- I personally have no idea what was meant by the editorialising as well. Feel free to reword to something appropriate however. Shot info (talk) 05:47, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
- It seems the article is full-protected. No editing except by admins. It must be a vandalism-rich time of the year, perhaps due to being the day after the non-attended apology? --Yeti Hunter (talk) 06:53, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
So you're saying Bennelong had the same amount of electioneering as your average Australian electorate? Hilarious. Timeshift (talk) 07:12, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
- Hard to know who you are replying to (if anyone), but I'm certainly not saying anything of the sort. The book might give the answer, apart from the mere fact of its existence. Anyone read it? --Pete (talk) 07:16, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
How do the balloons "show the extent of electioneering"? What extent? What electioneering? Where's the cite? What does electioneering even mean? Don't you mean campaigning? It's a nothing statement that adds nothing to the article, except to push a thinly veiled "the Libs were desperate" POV. As for my suggested edits, how about a totally neutral "A Liberal campaigning event for the seat of Bennelong in the 2007 election" or something similar. You guys who regularly edit this page all seem to argue the hell out of any changes to statements that could be construed as even slightly partisan, so I'm happy to leave any final wording to you.--Yeti Hunter (talk) 11:20, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
- I don't know how you interpret that out of except maybe your own insecurity. The wording indicates a large amount of electioneering by both major party candidates. Not just one. Timeshift (talk) 11:23, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
- There seem to be almost an equal number of "Big Endian" party and "Little Endian" party balloons visible in the image therefore it is fair and balanced. Albatross2147 (talk) 11:45, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
- a thinly veiled "the Libs were desperate" POV. Actually, I took it the other way - the ALP put a mighty effort into winning votes in Bennelong. As they did. Seems both parties wanted the seat badly. --Pete (talk) 22:14, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
- Well, back on topic, why not change the text to "Electioneering balloons from the Liberal and Labor parties in Bennelong during the 2007 election campaign" or something similar without the editorialising? Shot info (talk) 22:32, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
- Comment That seems a sensible suggestion Albatross2147 (talk) 03:48, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
- Because the point is to show the extent of the electioneering. Also note the caption from the flickr source, though not authoritative. I wonder how many other electorates around Australia had a gazillion balloons in the one place... Timeshift (talk) 22:39, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
- You probably need to review WP:OR with respect to unsourced editorialising. I have no idea about gazillion balloons but put a politician on a podium in the US and you have a gazillion balloons. So if a gazzillion balloons in the one place is in fact notable, then (like normal) a source is needed. Ta --Shot info (talk) 23:21, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
- We are in Australia aren't we? And what needs sourcing exactly? That there was more electioneering than normal in Bennelong? You could find an article on that ranging from a local news site right across to BBC UK... Timeshift (talk) 23:29, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
- Rather than explaining How to edit without editorialising 101 to you, I direct you to here...again. Shot info (talk) 23:32, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
- What on earth are you on SI and where do I get some? The image illustrates the article nicely albeit obliquely. Albatross2147 (talk) 01:54, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
- If we could use this image perhaps SI and others of that ilk would be happy. Albatross2147 (talk) 02:06, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
- SI did you actually get down to here? Albatross2147 (talk) 02:13, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
- If we could use this image perhaps SI and others of that ilk would be happy. Albatross2147 (talk) 02:06, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
- What on earth are you on SI and where do I get some? The image illustrates the article nicely albeit obliquely. Albatross2147 (talk) 01:54, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
- Rather than explaining How to edit without editorialising 101 to you, I direct you to here...again. Shot info (talk) 23:32, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
- We are in Australia aren't we? And what needs sourcing exactly? That there was more electioneering than normal in Bennelong? You could find an article on that ranging from a local news site right across to BBC UK... Timeshift (talk) 23:29, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
- You probably need to review WP:OR with respect to unsourced editorialising. I have no idea about gazillion balloons but put a politician on a podium in the US and you have a gazillion balloons. So if a gazzillion balloons in the one place is in fact notable, then (like normal) a source is needed. Ta --Shot info (talk) 23:21, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
- Well, back on topic, why not change the text to "Electioneering balloons from the Liberal and Labor parties in Bennelong during the 2007 election campaign" or something similar without the editorialising? Shot info (talk) 22:32, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
- a thinly veiled "the Libs were desperate" POV. Actually, I took it the other way - the ALP put a mighty effort into winning votes in Bennelong. As they did. Seems both parties wanted the seat badly. --Pete (talk) 22:14, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
- There seem to be almost an equal number of "Big Endian" party and "Little Endian" party balloons visible in the image therefore it is fair and balanced. Albatross2147 (talk) 11:45, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I'd love to know which bit of the image caption is original research... I really would. Timeshift (talk) 03:43, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
- Well clearly you've got no proof that the purported inflated objects are in fact balloons. I think the yellow ones at least might be condoms. Then there is the fact that trademarked logos are clearly visible so WP:An-excuse-to-get-all-hysterical-about-possible-breach-of-copyright might be applicable here. Albatross2147 (talk) 06:24, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
- HAHAHAHAH way to take the piss :D Timeshift (talk) 10:27, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
- :-) - but in saying (writing that) Alb, you and TS seem to be at crosspurposes, I have proposed a change above, so it is unclear what the objection is. Perhaps it's better to wait until until unprot and I will show you the edit proposed? Shot info (talk) 02:59, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
- I thought I had supported your proposal but I see that it hadn't stuck. I have added a comment above. Albatross2147 (talk) 03:48, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
- :-) - but in saying (writing that) Alb, you and TS seem to be at crosspurposes, I have proposed a change above, so it is unclear what the objection is. Perhaps it's better to wait until until unprot and I will show you the edit proposed? Shot info (talk) 02:59, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
- HAHAHAHAH way to take the piss :D Timeshift (talk) 10:27, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Howard admitted he was "dead meat" on the day
John Howard knew on election day he was doomed, telling a confidant he was "dead meat". In an explosive ABC Four Corners program, airing tonight...[12] Some interesting new facts coming to light... Timeshift (talk) 23:14, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Relevance
Looking at the article, I see the federal apology material is covered already:
John Howard's government also considered the issue of a national apology to Aboriginal Australians for their treatment by previous governments following the European settlement of the country. Howard refrained from making a national apology (although all State and Territory Governments did so) and instead personally expressed "deep sorrow" while maintaining that "Australians of this generation should not be required to accept guilt and blame for past actions and policies."[34]
I think that adding a sentence here noting that one of the first actions of the incoming Labor governement was to make a federal apology would be appropriate and relevant within the context of Howard's political career. Having Rudd's speech as a stand alone paragraph later on is inappropriate, for reasons already mentioned. --Pete (talk) 23:39, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- John Howard's government also considered the issue of a national apology to Aboriginal Australians for their treatment by previous governments following the European settlement of the country. Howard refrained from making a national apology (although all State and Territory Governments did so) and instead personally expressed "deep sorrow" while maintaining that "Australians of this generation should not be required to accept guilt and blame for past actions and policies. He later refused an invite in 2008 to attend a parliamentary apology to the stolen generations. That would suit me fine. Timeshift (talk) 23:46, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- I would go with Pete's suggestion even if it was only to persuade the Bling Guy to unlock the article. Albatross2147 (talk) 00:00, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
- I also think the wording is acceptable as it's about JH and his position on the subject, though I'd tweak ...He later
refuseddeclined an invite in 2008... We dont need BlingGuy to unlock the artile we can use {{editprotect}} when people are happy with the wording. Gnangarra 00:12, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
- I also think the wording is acceptable as it's about JH and his position on the subject, though I'd tweak ...He later
- I think it's important to note that it was one of the first actions of the incoming government. There's a lot of 2008 to go yet. --Pete (talk) 00:14, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
- I dont think this article needs to include whether it the first, last or a somewhere in between action of the current Government. The relevance is in the actions of JH, unless there is WP:RS coverage that JH may not have attended because it was the first action of the new government rather than the actual appology. Gnangarra 00:21, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
- It's a matter of telling the story for the understanding of future readers. Someone comes along in 2020, looking for info on past PMs, they got to do a bit of digging to work out the significance of 2008. It's just a number. But saying that the apology was one of the first acts of the incoming government, that's telling the story, putting things together in context. --Pete (talk) 00:28, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
- I dont think this article needs to include whether it the first, last or a somewhere in between action of the current Government. The relevance is in the actions of JH, unless there is WP:RS coverage that JH may not have attended because it was the first action of the new government rather than the actual appology. Gnangarra 00:21, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
- I think it's important to note that it was one of the first actions of the incoming government. There's a lot of 2008 to go yet. --Pete (talk) 00:14, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
- the sub section below has a reworded version based on the the discussion so far Gnangarra 01:01, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
(resetting indent) Shouldn't it refer to "indigenous Australians", not "Aboriginal Australians"? The Torres Strait Islanders are not Aboriginal in the sense the word is used in this context. -- JackofOz (talk) 01:15, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
I've tweaked the wording below to enhance the significance of Howard's non-attendance - i.e. if all or some of the other living ex-PM's had declined the invitation, then much of the significance would be lost and it would have just been yet another thing that someone didn't do. Eyedubya (talk) 02:11, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Tweaked it to explain the significance, not enhance it. Eyedubya (talk) 02:13, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
- minor change removed "living" as thats redundant statement, also moved "the former PM" to after the event detail so as to highlight the event, then the significance of the decline. Gnangarra 03:17, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
The wording proposed is all over the place trying to avoid telling the reader anything relevant about the call for an apology. The idea that an apology was "considered" in some sort of disembodied way is misleading. In fact, there was a vigorous popular movement calling for an apology and the Bringing Them Home report should be linked in the text. The idea that he "refrained" from issuing an apology makes it sound like he was turning down an extra cake for afternoon tea. He didn't "refrain", he refused, and he consistently refused over a decade or so under constant pressure and campaigning to do so. "Refused" is the word used by most sources, a Google search shows that Wikipedia is the only source that thinks that Howard "refrained" from making an apology. Its embarassing. Saying that he "later" declined (declined is ok in this context) obfuscates the fact that the apology was made within days of him losing office. Wm (talk) 07:02, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
- This is about JH not the whole apology movement, as such should be limited to only significant relevant events related directly to him. The other events should be covered as part of the Stolen_generations#Australian_Federal_government_apology, if there's sufficient information(I'm sure there will be) then this should be moved to a daughter article like Australian Federal government apology. Then the section covering this gets a {{main}} referring the reader to the full information which includes the history behind the apology, along with any future developments and not just selected pieces. Gnangarra 13:19, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
- "Considered" is ok. That's what Cabinets do. If Sydney were blown up by a nuclear bomb, the government would hurriedly meet and consider what needed to be done. However, I'm inclined to support "refused". If the issue of the apology had only ever come up once, "refrain" would be ok. But it was raised time and time again, and each time he refused to budge. Also, Howard often referred to the risk of the Commonwealth being sued for compensation, and this purely commercial consideration was one of his main arguments against an apology, along with the guilt/blame factor. I think it needs to be mentioned. -- JackofOz (talk) 01:06, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Side Issue
Is this to be a footnote to the Second term: 1998–2001 section, where the paragraph currently is or does it now need to be considered a separate section altogether. Gnangarra 03:30, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
- I don't like the idea of putting such a condensed issue in a timeline format. Timeline format is great for most things but this issue was distributed across his time as PM. Ansell 06:19, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Wording
Please keep comments in the section above edit use this section only to tweak the wording
- John Howard's government also considered the issue of a national apology to Indigenous Australians, as recommended in the Bringing Them Home report, in recognition of the treatment by previous governments following the European settlement of the country. In the face of a growing movment in favour of a national apology, Howard was resolute in his refusal to do this, although all State and Territory Governments issued their own. Instead, John Howard personally expressed "deep sorrow" while maintaining that "Australians of this generation should not be required to accept guilt and blame for past actions and policies."[1] In February 2008, in the opening week of the new parliament that followed his election loss, he declined an invitation to the parliamentary apology to the stolen generations, the only former Prime Minister to do so.
Howard's PM infobox
Hello folks. 25 of the 26 Aussie PM infoboxes have Elections in their content. Would anybody object to making it 26 out of 26? GoodDay (talk) 17:59, 18 February 2008 (UTC)