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:It's a case of odd one out. Whitlam (ALP), Fraser (Lib), Hawke (ALP), and Keating (ALP) all attended. Read the above to see you're in the minority view. Thanks! [[User:Timeshift9|Timeshift]] ([[User talk:Timeshift9|talk]]) 02:41, 14 February 2008 (UTC) |
:It's a case of odd one out. Whitlam (ALP), Fraser (Lib), Hawke (ALP), and Keating (ALP) all attended. Read the above to see you're in the minority view. Thanks! [[User:Timeshift9|Timeshift]] ([[User talk:Timeshift9|talk]]) 02:41, 14 February 2008 (UTC) |
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::Millions of people didn't attend. Selecting a group just to mention Howard as the exception is contrived. --[[User:Skyring|Pete]] ([[User talk:Skyring|talk]]) 02:44, 14 February 2008 (UTC) |
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Photo of Howard bust
A pity because someone went to the effort, but I believe a photo of a Howard bust http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image%3AJohn_Howard_bust.jpg is a photo of copyrighted art and so is a "deriviative work". If I am correct, then there are copyright issues and it will need to be removed. See http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons%3ADerivative_works Peter Ballard (talk) 10:52, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
- "Photographs of buildings and artworks in public spaces: Those are derivative works, but they may be OK, if the artwork is permanently installed (which means, it is there to stay, not to be removed after a certain time), and in some countries if you are on public ground while taking the picture. Check Commons:Freedom of panorama if your country has a liberal policy on this exception and learn more about freedom of panorama. (Note that in most countries, freedom of panorama does not cover two-dimensional artworks such as murals.)" [1]
- Australia: "Freedom of Panorama is dealt with in the Australian Copyright Act, sections 65-68. These sections allow photographers to take pictures of buildings and also of sculptures and works of artistic craftsmanship provided that they are permanently located in a public place or in premises open to the public. It is also permitted to publish such pictures (section 68). Australian law is modelled on UK law, and in the absence of any specific case law to the contrary is is reasonable to assume that the rules will be identical. See the United Kingdom section for more details."[2]
- United Kingdom: "Section 62 of the UK Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 is much broader than the corresponding provisions in many other countries, and allows photographers to take pictures of
- buildings, and
- sculptures, models for buildings and works of artistic craftsmanship (if permanently situated in a public place or in premises open to the public).
- without breaching copyright. Such photographs may be published in any way..."[3]
- Hope the above clarifies it for you Peter. Cheers, WikiTownsvillian 13:30, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
- It looks like you're right. It's just that I've seen the argument raised before (in that case there were other problems with the sculpure so the copyright question became a non-issue), and thought I'd better raise it here. Peter Ballard (talk) 02:44, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
- no worries thank you for raising it, as you said I put a bit of work into it so it is important that issues are raised early, acknowledgement to timeshift for created a whole article on it :) I was a little surprised that there wasn't already one. repWikiTownsvillian 04:14, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
- Good photo. I'm glad it can stay. Lester 06:02, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
1998 Election section
In discussing the closeness of the 1998 Bennelong results we find this:
- "It was unheard of in Australian politics for a sitting prime minister to not win outright victory on the first count."
As Stanley Bruce lost his seat in 1929, it is hardly "unheard of". How often has it actually happened that a sitting PM needed preferences to hold his seat? Molinari (talk) 00:43, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- And in any case he won it comfortably 56-44 on 2PP.[4] The seat was never in doubt so I removed the comment as pointless. Peter Ballard (talk) 01:34, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- I have just removed the edit again. Note that the ABC election tallying (during the count) calls Bennelong "safe". [5] Peter Ballard (talk) 23:17, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
That section mentions "two" main issues in the campaign - the GST stated as one. What is the other? --Merbabu (talk) 01:48, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- Pauline Hanson. I think it got deleted because, while she factored, the GST overshadowed everything. The ABC has a pretty decent archive at http://www.abc.net.au/election98/default.htm Peter Ballard (talk) 01:58, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Can someone lose their seat other than in a Federal election?
User:Shot info recently did a tidying-up edit re Howard's defeat in 2007. The text had read "...making him just the second Australian Prime Minister, after Stanley Bruce in 1929, to lose his own seat in a Federal election." Shot Info deleted the last four words, and justified it by asking rhetorically "Are there Prime Minsters who lose their seats in a non-Federal Election????"
I think the edit is fine but, technically, a Prime Minister could lose his seat in at least several other ways:
- 1) a redistribution leaving him or her 'homeless' (like the sadly-missed Peter Andren)
- Then he'd either (a) gain preselection for a different seat, and contest that seat at the election. If he loses, we're back to square 1; or (b) retire from parliament, which is not the same as losing one's seat (even if forced by circumstance to retire earlier than he had planned to).
- 2) an irregularity in his or her election leading to a legal defeat in the High Court sitting as either the High Court or as the Court of Disputed Returns
- This is legally equivalent to losing his seat on election day. The new member would be installed retrospective to election day.
- 3) disqualification under either Section 44 or 45 of the Constitution (eg. serious criminal conviction, bankrupcy).
- 4) (improbable but not technically impossible) losing party preselection for the seat - though they could of course still stand as an independent.
- ... and if they lose, then it's square 1.
- 5) Dying in office, (eg Harold_Holt) Mitch Ames (talk) 23:11, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
- This is hardly in the category of "losing his own seat", but more "losing his own life".
Cheers everyone! hamiltonstone (talk) 09:57, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
- Personally I thought the edit was quite poor especially given that the reasons for the seat loss are explained in the article. So why the need for it to be reiterated? Shot info (talk) 22:51, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
- Eh? Sorry - I meant i thought your edit was fine, Shot, not the pre-existing text. My point was that, although technically there are other ways for an MP to lose their seat, I nevertheless agreed that the text you excised was redundant in the broader scheme of things. I was just putting up the list of other ways a seat could be lost as background info in case anyone else wanted to argue the toss. But you'll get no argument from me. Cheers hamiltonstone (talk) 23:34, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
1998 Bennelong Preferences information deleted
The information about the seat of Bennelong going down to the wire with preferences in 1998 was deleted in this edit without discussion. Editors should not take it upon themselves to unilaterally delete information like this. That is why we have discussion pages, for the community to decide if it is relevant or not.Lester 09:38, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
- I take issue with "no news articles talk about the specific fact, thus it isn't noteable" line. One good example is the 2007 election - just because (that I know of) no news articles talk about the informal Senate vote being the lowest since federation, doesn't make it non noteable. Timeshift (talk) 09:45, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
- The community may or may not find it relevant, but I thought it was an interesting fact that Bennelong was so close the previous time. If someone doesn't like recently added information, they should start a discussion about it first so others can view it and respond.Lester 09:50, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
- It was discussed above at #1998 Election section. I'll repeat what I said there. He won it comfortably, and the ABC election tallying (during the count) calls Bennelong "safe". [6]. There is an extensive ABC 1998 election at http://www.abc.net.au/election98/default.htm and I'd be surprised if the alleged closeness of Bennelong figured as a news story at all. Peter Ballard (talk) 10:26, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
- What was discussed before was a different issue, a previous line about whether there was a general opinion that the seat was "in doubt". The current information that was deleted was about the fact that Howard required preferences to win his seat. If you dispute the fact as untrue, then let us know. But I fail to see how it is not relevant to a section about Howard and the election.Lester 12:42, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Here's my take ... from what little I know about Australian politics, it's VERY unusual for a sitting prime minister to have to go to preferences at all to win his own seat. Let alone the ninth count. I've since found out (contrary to my previous digging) only happened one other time prior to Howard--in '90, when Bob Hawke only got 48.7 percent on the first count in his own electorate and had to wait until the sixth count to be elected. So we're looking at only four instances that a sitting prime minister has had to go to preferences to be assured of victory, and three of them from only one incumbent--very unusual.Blueboy96 15:23, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
- Indeed. Has anyone actually checked the literature (political journals, etc) to see if this has been discussed anywhere? Orderinchaos 23:06, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
- A seat can be totally safe even if it goes to preferences. Commentary on how often this happens to existing PMs is definitely OR. Good luck finding an RS commenting on it, because the RSs understand that, as I said, a seat can be totally safe even if it goes to preferences. My kids wonder if we now have the first ever world leader called "Kevin". Should we research that and put the (indisputable) facts in the Rudd article? Peter Ballard (talk) 23:41, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Bush
I'm fascinated that the right have managed to scrub the entire article of any reference to Bush, images excluded. Anyway, is this image worthy of adding and if so, where? Timeshift (talk) 14:00, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
- I don't know.. but since his relationship to President Bush was a pivotal factor in his Prime Ministership (and almost certainly, his downfall), it's curious that the only mention of it seems to be in photographs. DEVS EX MACINA pray 14:10, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
- Mind you, i've had those same people try to remove images from time to time... Timeshift (talk) 14:14, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
- There doesn't seem to be an equivalent "group" of editors patrolling the Labor Party / Rudd articles, ready to delete referenced information seconds after it has been added. It's a shame that information about Howard's warm relationship with Bush has been deleted. Regarding the photo, it's an interesting photo, but Howard is not obvious in it. I think there would be better photos that more closely represent the Howard + Bush warmth (down on the ranch, maybe?). Lester 23:21, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
- The image isn't for that purpose. It's an image of a major event, the same event where Kerry Nettle was told to fuck off and die in parliament. Timeshift (talk) 23:45, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
- There doesn't seem to be an equivalent "group" of editors patrolling the Labor Party / Rudd articles, ready to delete referenced information seconds after it has been added. It's a shame that information about Howard's warm relationship with Bush has been deleted. Regarding the photo, it's an interesting photo, but Howard is not obvious in it. I think there would be better photos that more closely represent the Howard + Bush warmth (down on the ranch, maybe?). Lester 23:21, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
- Mind you, i've had those same people try to remove images from time to time... Timeshift (talk) 14:14, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
- Well, there need to be sources for starters. But yes, the eeeeevil "right" is actively patrolling Wikipedia....never forget that. And I'm sure they have everybodies names and addresses as well :-) Shot info (talk) 23:38, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
- Change is to was. Note the mass exodus after 24 November 2007. But they'll be back. Timeshift (talk) 23:46, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
- Hmmm, I can only speculate who "they" are. FWIW we all did discuss that the "noise" would die down after your election, and hey-presto, it did. Now I wonder what it is that your are assuming, I wonder if it is good faith? :-) Shot info (talk) 23:51, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
- My election? And no, i'm not assuming good faith (and you're no angel), oh no call the policy police. Timeshift (talk) 00:08, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
- You are an Australian no? So, Australian election = your election? WRT AGF: Well, as long as you admit it and are clear that you are not engaging in it. After all, it isn't the first lot of policy that you are having problems with, so you may as well add some more to the list :-) Shot info (talk) 00:11, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
- I'm pretty sure reflecting on others actions rather than article improvements is also a policy no-no somewhere... just another to add to your list. Now how about we move on to something constructive eh? Timeshift (talk) 00:20, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
- You got it [7], [8], perhaps starting constructively instead of ponificating, then moving onto it is the next logical step? Shot info (talk) 01:08, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
- I'm pretty sure reflecting on others actions rather than article improvements is also a policy no-no somewhere... just another to add to your list. Now how about we move on to something constructive eh? Timeshift (talk) 00:20, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
- You are an Australian no? So, Australian election = your election? WRT AGF: Well, as long as you admit it and are clear that you are not engaging in it. After all, it isn't the first lot of policy that you are having problems with, so you may as well add some more to the list :-) Shot info (talk) 00:11, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
- My election? And no, i'm not assuming good faith (and you're no angel), oh no call the policy police. Timeshift (talk) 00:08, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
- Hmmm, I can only speculate who "they" are. FWIW we all did discuss that the "noise" would die down after your election, and hey-presto, it did. Now I wonder what it is that your are assuming, I wonder if it is good faith? :-) Shot info (talk) 23:51, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
- Change is to was. Note the mass exodus after 24 November 2007. But they'll be back. Timeshift (talk) 23:46, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
- Well, there need to be sources for starters. But yes, the eeeeevil "right" is actively patrolling Wikipedia....never forget that. And I'm sure they have everybodies names and addresses as well :-) Shot info (talk) 23:38, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
And I continue to fully support those comments as relevant and worthy of discussion. I just came across a new image repository and got some excellent ones up. Being constructive is a good thing, pity more don't do it. Timeshift (talk) 01:27, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Page Move
Is it too early to move this page to "John Howard (Australian Politician)" or "John Winston Howard"? Albatross2147 (talk) 01:06, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- I won't ever support moving Howard to another page. It will take quite a while (if ever) for a more significant John Howard than Howard to take the principle wikipedia page of John Howard. Timeshift (talk) 01:10, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Howard absent from Sorry Day
Someone has reverted the article (here) and deleted the reference to Howard being absent from the National Apology to the Stolen Generation. Howard had been invited, but declined. The information carried a newspaper citation. Unfortunately, the editor who reverted the article didn't wish to start a discussion to involve the community in this debate. Therefore, I will revert the previous reversion of this information. I expect it to be discussed here, with time for community comment, before ny further deletions occur. Thanks, Lester 04:26, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Lester, I agree with the revision. This is a BLP remember, the sentence doesn't match the reference. In fact the only thing from the reference that is in the sentence is that Howard didn't attend. So what do we do when an unsourced addition is made to a BLP. It is removed. Shot info (talk) 04:35, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Doesn't matter to me if it's there or not (I'm not a regular editor of this article), but can you please remove "living" from the paragraph? No one expects dead former prime ministers to show up. ;) Somno (talk) 04:36, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
This is a serious issue. I assume people are here to delete information about Howard that they consider may make him look bad. In doing so, they delete an historic moment in Australia's history, for the sake of cleansing Howard's image. It's not very often that all living Prime Ministers are lined up. Well, all but one. It was an important historic moment that the other PMs were all there, and notable that Howard was absent. Howard was, in fact, taking a morning stroll, and later went to his Sydney office to do some paperwork, according to The Age. There is nothing POV about the original sentence which said that Howard was the only living PM absent. It should be restored immediately.Lester 05:09, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Howard not attending "Sorry Day" is a positive thing to his supporters and a negative thing to his detractors. To state that he was absent from the Parliament when the apology was read is perfectly neutral; adding on junk and opinion from observers is not. So if someone wishes to edit the article, simply say that Howard did not attend the opening of the Parliament and therefore did not hear Rudd's sorry speech. End of story. Michael talk 05:27, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Why, then, is the section which said he was the only living PM not to attend... considered "POV"?Lester 05:32, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Because it singles him out negatively — "was the only one not to attend..." — like it was an inherently bad thing, and, as we all know, one's view on this is inherently subjective. I just said I had no problems adding in that he did not attend, and that it happened to be "Sorry Day" too. Michael talk 05:39, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Why, then, is the section which said he was the only living PM not to attend... considered "POV"?Lester 05:32, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- I'm not sure he was the only one not to attend. I didn't see Fraser anywhere (although all we see is what the cameras picked up, not necessarily everyone who was there). And Hawke, who said he couldn't make it because of an unbreakable prior commitment but would be there in spirit, managed to turn up anyway. -- JackofOz (talk) 05:49, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Fraser was there. In reply to 'Michael' (above): First, is the worry that information might make the subject look negative a reason for deletion? Is this a positive-only article? Second, I don't think the sentence about former PMs in itself was negative. If Howard was the only PM not to attend a lunch with Brian Burke, would that be negative or positive? The fact we said he was the only PM not to attend the national apology isn't in itself negative, unless the reader personally thinks so. By removing the reference to all other former PMs attending, we have deleted all the context.Lester 05:54, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Mr Howard was the only living former prime minister not to attend the formal apology Mr Rudd delivered in federal parliament today.[9] Timeshift (talk) 05:59, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Neutral is neither negative nor positive. When you single Howard out on the spot like that, does our English language make it seem like a negative, positive, or neutral thing? It is decidedly a negative thing due to the wording used. I cannot right now think of a way to word it to avoid such triviality, and, as I have said twice now, I have no problem whatsoever with the article mentioning that Howard declined to attend Parliament for its opening, and therefore did not hear Rudd's sorry speech. Surely this is enough. Michael talk 06:13, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks for the clarification about Fraser. On Howard, are we risking being a little precious here? It's not that we're "singling him out", Michael. He singled himself out by being the only one who chose not to come. If we say elsewhere that Whitlam, Fraser, Hawke and Keating turned up, and say here that Howard didn't, then surely it's going to be obvious to people who read more than one article that he was the only non-attendee, so what's the problem with saying just that. If Howard had been invited as a one-off, then whether he chose to come or not might not have been notable. But all living former PMs were invited, and he was conspicuous by his absence. People can make what they like of the fact of his absence, but it's not POV to merely state a fact that's been widely reported elsewhere anyway. If you want to avoid the language question because you think "only" is somehow negative, we could say "Howard did not attend the apology; all other living former Prime Ministers did". -- JackofOz (talk) 06:23, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- JofOz, firstly, I cannot see in the references where he was invited. Presumably he was, but I cannot see "he was invited, but declined" or something similar. But in saying that, I don't see why we don't have something simple, with no OR, just stating the facts. Unfortunately all the sources all just mention he didn't attend, then wander off into discussing something else. I personally don't really know how to get the OR out of the two facts, "Howard didn't attend the Opening of Parl." and "The PM apologised to the Stolen Gen, during the 2nd sitting of the 42nd Parl." (or something similar). --Shot info (talk) 06:32, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
I am curious if Lester's comment I assume people are here to delete information about Howard that they consider may make him look bad is his version of Assume Good Faith? Should editors start assuming that because he is desperate to include material without sources, that he is interested in making Howard look bad? Is this valid? No, because we assume good faith and Lester, if you just stop with the assumptions, you might find that perhaps you would have better engagement with editors. Shot info (talk) 06:21, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- It is clearly notable that Howard did not attend. All the news sources I have seen mention it. Howard is notable for not doing things. Like not keeping promises. Not realising Australia's participation in the Vietnam was was an error. Not joining up to the military even though he was keen on other mother's sons being forced to do so. Not saying sorry. Albatross2147 (talk) 07:33, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Is it chilly up there? Shot info (talk) 07:46, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Your continual sniping comments are not constructive SI. Timeshift (talk) 08:00, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Lucky I'm not one of your "Liberals" then...hmmmm? Shot info (talk) 11:34, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Your continual sniping comments are not constructive SI. Timeshift (talk) 11:36, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Irony is a noun that escapes you at times, doesn't it? Shot info (talk) 11:39, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Again, your continual sniping comments are not constructive SI. Timeshift (talk) 11:43, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Again, irony is a noun that escapes you at times. Shot info (talk) 11:46, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Knock it off, guys. If you want to take potshots at each other, take it to your talk pages, or, better yet, do it off-site. Sarah 11:50, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Again, irony is a noun that escapes you at times. Shot info (talk) 11:46, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Again, your continual sniping comments are not constructive SI. Timeshift (talk) 11:43, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Irony is a noun that escapes you at times, doesn't it? Shot info (talk) 11:39, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Your continual sniping comments are not constructive SI. Timeshift (talk) 11:36, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Lucky I'm not one of your "Liberals" then...hmmmm? Shot info (talk) 11:34, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Your continual sniping comments are not constructive SI. Timeshift (talk) 08:00, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Is it chilly up there? Shot info (talk) 07:46, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- It is clearly notable that Howard did not attend. All the news sources I have seen mention it. Howard is notable for not doing things. Like not keeping promises. Not realising Australia's participation in the Vietnam was was an error. Not joining up to the military even though he was keen on other mother's sons being forced to do so. Not saying sorry. Albatross2147 (talk) 07:33, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
The wording still needs cleaning up. We are, in effect, saying that Howard was the only former PM not to attend the "Sorry Day" parliament, but we are beating around the bush to say it in more words than necessary, in an attempt not to single Howard out. The Australian and international media state he was the only living former PM not to attend, as could be seen in the supplied references (some have now been removed). We should do the same, and treat this subject as the outside media does. Incidentally, on the Wilson Tuckey info that has been added, there were actually 5 coalition MPs who did not attend. Regards, Lester 18:35, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Well, since Wikipedia isn't a tabloid, sometimes....just sometimes it's prudent to let the sources digest the information and then produce something we can reference....prior to inserting into an article. At the moment, we are suffering from a lack of detailed references informing us of the notability of this "act" and conflicted information (he was invited ... yes, no, everybody says yes, the sources don't agree). Etc. etc. So rather than fall over ourselves to get it right...NOW, why don't we wait for a week or two for the media to do the work? Shot info (talk) 22:34, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Keating attended, but nobody saw fit to include this information in his article. Because it wasn't notable. Can't see how Howard not attending is somehow more notable! --Pete (talk) 02:39, 14 February 2008 (UTC)