Renamed user 995577823Xyn (talk | contribs) →Infobox again: oppose-comment |
Sagaciousphil (talk | contribs) →IP reverts: David Maxwell Fyfe: new section |
||
Line 198: | Line 198: | ||
*'''Oppose''' infobox They're not mandatory and should remain optional, but the choice to omit them should not mean those who don't are continuously pressured to add them. [[User talk:SchroCat|Gavin]] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Tim_riley&diff=748992571&oldid=748744101 Tim Riley] left as a result of a horrible brawl over one at [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:No%C3%ABl_Coward/Archive_2 Noël Coward]. FWIW, the subject recently surfaced at [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Edward_Elgar#Infobox Edward Elgar], where Tim was also a co-editor. [[User:We hope|We hope]] ([[User talk:We hope|talk]]) 15:05, 29 April 2017 (UTC) |
*'''Oppose''' infobox They're not mandatory and should remain optional, but the choice to omit them should not mean those who don't are continuously pressured to add them. [[User talk:SchroCat|Gavin]] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Tim_riley&diff=748992571&oldid=748744101 Tim Riley] left as a result of a horrible brawl over one at [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:No%C3%ABl_Coward/Archive_2 Noël Coward]. FWIW, the subject recently surfaced at [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Edward_Elgar#Infobox Edward Elgar], where Tim was also a co-editor. [[User:We hope|We hope]] ([[User talk:We hope|talk]]) 15:05, 29 April 2017 (UTC) |
||
== IP reverts: David Maxwell Fyfe == |
|||
Despite being asked to take their grievances to this talk page, IPs have failed to do so. Recent reverts by IPs starting 31.52.xxx.xx claim "fervently homophobic" should be [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=John_Gielgud&type=revision&diff=780403645&oldid=780401658 changed to] "...was conservative on the issue of homosexual rights,"; the IP further maintains the word 'homophobia' was not is use [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AWe_hope&type=revision&diff=780406499&oldid=779773976 at that time]. S/he is also demanding that other refs be provided as the IP states s/he intends to [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ASagaciousphil&type=revision&diff=781063461&oldid=780959960 continue edit warring] unless their ultimatum is met where they also claim I am unable to read references. The below examples have been taken from sources easily accessible online - obviously there are a great many more available but hopefully these will be suffice to satisfy the IP. |
|||
* The refs already supplied do support the sentence "The [[Home Secretary]] of the day, [[David Maxwell Fyfe]], was fervently homophobic, urging the police to arrest anyone who contravened the Victorian laws against homosexuality." |
|||
* The word 'homophobia' was [https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/22/us/george-weinberg-dead-coined-homophobia.html?_r=0 first introduced in the 1960s] |
|||
* Maxwell Fyfe has been described as "[http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/columnists/chris-bryant/chris-bryant-an-mp-can-be-gay-straight-or-asexual-nobody-cares-and-thats-how-it-should-be-2370948.html hideously homophobic]", a "[https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/may/16/double-lives-a-history-of-sex-and-secrecy-at-westminster vicious homophobe]", there are many other examples including "rampantly homophobic"<ref>{{cite book|author1=S. J. Harrison|author2=Christopher Stray|title=Expurgating the Classics: Editing Out in Latin and Greek|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=EWFMAQAAQBAJ&pg=PA201|year=2012|publisher=A&C Black|isbn=978-1-84966-892-7}}</ref> on page 201. [[User:Sagaciousphil|<span style="color: Navy">SagaciousPhil</span>]] - [[User Talk:Sagaciousphil|'''Chat''']] 11:27, 19 May 2017 (UTC) |
|||
{{reflist-talk}} |
Revision as of 11:27, 19 May 2017
John Gielgud is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | |||||||||||||
This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on May 14, 2017. | |||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||
Current status: Featured article |
This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Unfair implication
Perhaps I am just a little slow stupid, but I am confused by the following statement under the heading 'Birth and family background':
- In his autobiography, Gielgud states repeatedly and clearly that his father was Polish Catholic. However in the same autobiography, 'John Gielgud: The Authorized Biography', he mentions Gelgaudiškis as being his ancestral home from where his family and their surname originated.
There are two issues:
- The paragraph seems to imply that there is a contradiction between his father being a Polish Catholic and him mentioning Gelgaudiškis as being his ancestral home from where his family and their surname originated. The two statements are entirely compatible. Between 1569 and 1795, Poland and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania were united in as a single commonwealth (and in a personal union for a considerable period of time previous to that), so the histories of the two countries are inextricably linked. Surely it is unfair to imply an inconsistency (or even a lack of honesty) when such an implication ignores the fact that it is entirely plausible that his father's branch of the family chose Poland over Lithuania at some point in history (all the more plausible if they were, as claimed, Roman Catholics who would otherwise have been stranded in a Lithuania where Roman Catholicism was widely regarded as apostasy).
- This may seem pedantic; but surely an autobiography is an account of a persons life, written by that person. Whilst 'John Gielgud: The Authorized Biography' may have been written with his blessing and cooperation, it wasn't actually written by him – which I presume is why both the title and the cover make it clear that it is an “authorised biography”, which was openly written by Sheridan Morley (as opposed to being ghost written by Sheridan Morley and masquerading as being an autobiography written by John Gielgud).
To my mind there is just a really heavy whiff of original and unnecessary research going on here; so, unless someone can explain why the article should be left as it is (such as a primary source implying a discrepancy), I intend to adjust the article accordingly when making a few other minor additions. navlebeskuelse (talk) 17:00, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
Referral To Filmography : The Prime Minister
Sunday 10 June 2010
L.S. ,
Can someone please include the following link to his biographical film : The Prime Minister ( which is truly an outstanding portret ) .
I've made amendments but this wikipedia link remains unrecognized : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prime_Minister_(film)
See the red italic header " The Prime Minister " in 1. Film work & 2. Selected filmography .
Thank you . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.125.161.39 (talk) 00:41, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
Sunday, Dec. 22, 2013: In the filmography, I have noticed an omission: "Murder by Decree" (1979), starring Christopher Plummer and James Mason. In this film he again plays a high minister of the British government, and very well. A minor, but important, role; very similar in length and standing to his work in 1974's "Gold". John G. Lewis (talk) 10:56, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
- As WP has an article about Murder by Decree I have added it to the list, but the the 'Selected filmography' heading is beginning to look like a misnomer. Philip Cross (talk) 11:05, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
Proposal to upgrade for FAC
Having successfully taken Ralph Richardson's article to WP:FA, with marvellous input from editors in four continents, I am working on doing the same for Gielgud's. There is rather a lot of uncited material in the present article, which I propose to remove, necessitating a rewrite of much of the text using sourced material. May I ask any interested editor to ensure that any uncited statement which he or she wants kept is given a citation to a WP:RS? As with the Richardson article, I envisage that we will move the lists of film roles and awards to their own page (see here), improving them and adding all stage roles to them. A Wiki-colleague is, I think, working on this at the moment.
Grateful for any preliminary thoughts and suggestions here before completing the overhaul of the article, which I foresee will be in about a week's time. – Tim riley (talk) 10:43, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
- As per the above, I've hived off the filmography section to a new page, John Gielgud, roles and awards. I'm preparing a replacement for the information in a sandbox at the moment, which will be a full outline of all his stage, film, radio and television roles. Once finished this will (hopefully) be put forward to FLC as an accompaniment to this page. - SchroCat (talk) 18:22, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
Info-box
I see that a good faith edit by an IP adding an info-box was reverted by SchroCat earlier today. I agree with the reversion, and I think it might be a good idea to record on this page that the consensus is against a box, as unneeded clutter here (if indeed that is the consensus). Comments invited from all and sundry, near and far. Tim riley talk 18:50, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- What consensus? This is nonsense. There is a great deal of material in an infobox that just clutters the lead, the sibling info added in the edit which preceded his is not in the lede. The lede doesn't mention the name of Geilgud's partner, Martin Hensler. Nor the dates of their relationship. Nor Geilgud's birthplace, Nor his death place, death cause, or death date. Nor the fact that he sang. Infoboxes are not intended to replace the lead, nor vice-versa, they serve a different purpose and most famous people have them in their articles. See, e.g. his contemporaries, such as Laurence Olivier, Spencer Tracy, Yul Brynner, Helen Hayes, Audrey Hepburn, etc... Montanabw(talk) 21:22, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- Please do not edit war on this. The non-infobox version is that which was passed at FAC: there is the consensus. To claim there is no consensus is indeed nonsense. There is no need for an idiot box here, and the passing through PR and FAC without comment on the lack puts it into perpective. Yes, some others have them, (see WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS), but many don't, if you want to play that particular game. (and as for no death date, try the opening line, between the brackets, just after the name...) BTW, to claim - as you did in your edit summary - that there is "No consensus to remove" misses the point that there was no consensus to add the IB. It was done in good faith, but so was the removal. - SchroCat (talk) 21:37, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
Omit infobox: While here, I will add my comment that there is certainly no need for minor factoids to take pride of place in the upper right corner of the article. - SchroCat (talk) 21:33, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
Omit infobox: The infobox is not helpful in this article. The information in it is either repetitive or of relatively minor importance. The information is much better presented in the carefully considered narrative text. See also WP:DISINFO. -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:45, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- Consensus can change. Info boxes and leads do not serve the same purpose. An infobox is formatted to be an easy at-a -glance read. A lead is the actual introduction to an article. If infoboxes were simply repetitions of a lead which is what the argument here is then we could remove any infobox on any article that has a lead. Since that's not the case or situation that argument doesn't hold water. I support an info box. Why not give the reader an easy and simple way of seeing what the article is about, and this is about the reader, not any of us.(Littleolive oil (talk) 21:50, 4 December 2014 (UTC))
- Are we not also readers? Idiot boxes pander to the lowest common denominator. The important information is in the lead, the rest is partly fluff. The consensus not to have a box needs to be overturned, but I'm not seeing anything that is going to change my mind so far. - SchroCat (talk) 21:58, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- Consensus can change. Info boxes and leads do not serve the same purpose. An infobox is formatted to be an easy at-a -glance read. A lead is the actual introduction to an article. If infoboxes were simply repetitions of a lead which is what the argument here is then we could remove any infobox on any article that has a lead. Since that's not the case or situation that argument doesn't hold water. I support an info box. Why not give the reader an easy and simple way of seeing what the article is about, and this is about the reader, not any of us.(Littleolive oil (talk) 21:50, 4 December 2014 (UTC))
- As an aside the first revert with out discussion was made by SchroCat. I'd like to revert to the IP's work until we have reason to believe his work is not acceptable. We don't have that situation at this point.(Littleolive oil (talk) 21:54, 4 December 2014 (UTC))
Content is added all the time without "community processes" Further FACs and GAs are changed all the time and do not require consensus. A FAC does not necessarily mean consensus as we well know. It simply means one or a small number of people think an article as a whole has reached a specific standard Further in your edit summary you suggest that all of the content in the info box is in the lead which is not true. I'm afraid I don't see any real arguments here. I think your cmts indicate a bias. "idiot boxes, lowest common denominator. Scientists always write an abstract is that pandering to the lowest common denominator. (Littleolive oil (talk) 22:17, 4 December 2014 (UTC))
- Omit infobox Although I wouldn't consider birth place and alma mater "fluff" exactly, it looks a lot better without it IMO. We're not imdb anyway. There is consensus among the article writers and reviewers Montana for no infobox, it's the case on most of the articles. As it turns out I'm currently developing User:Dr. Blofeld/Stanley Kubrick without one too. When I get around to Audrey I'd rather see a pretty image than the box too. I see most of them in biographies as unnecessary furniture which mostly replicates what is said in the lead anyway. It's different for things like sportspeople which have a lot of data. I can see why some people advocate them, but I'm sure soon enough there'll be an option in preferences and data controlled by wiki data.♦ Dr. Blofeld 22:06, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- Omit info-box – as explained above. Pointless clutter, giving the casual dipper-in nothing of value. Tim riley talk 22:11, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- Comment: I won't vote in a discussion which politely mentions "idiot" twice. The only people who should be asked if an infobox is helpful in this article would be the readers. Consensus of those who don't see that? (What I would vote if I would vote is known enough.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:16, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
-
- Funny ;) - Of course you are one reader, vs. 16729 during the last 30 days (be proud of the stats). Let's deduct generously for editors clicking and bots, - I would still see that there is a majority out there not asked. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:54, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- Perhaps you are suggesting we write to suit ourselves rather than the general public. Don't confuse readers in the WP sense with ability we all have to read the articles. The real question is what is our role, and our role when writing articles is to write for the general public, our readers, not to please ourselves, the editors. And my point remains. There is content in the infobox that is not in the lead. How do you address that concern?(Littleolive oil (talk) 22:30, 4 December 2014 (UTC))
- No, as I have said, we are both editors and readers. I am an editor and I am a member of the general public. Yes, there was pointless clutter in the IB that isn't needed up at the top of the article. I don't see the issue with the fluff not being there, TBH. - SchroCat (talk) 22:35, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- So you are writing for yourself? Ownership comes to mind, None of these issues exclude an infobox. A pretty picture and an infobox can exist together, are not mutually exclusive. I won't say anything more about a need for pretty pictures in an encyclopedic article or how that sounds to women? The suggestions are that these issue are mutually exclusive, but they aren't. In total the arguments are spurious guys, they don't hold water. (Littleolive oil (talk) 22:56, 4 December 2014 (UTC))
- Ownership? I wondered when someone would start being so cheap as to throw mindless insults around based on nothing. You have not come up with any good arguements as to why theconsensus should be overturned. All you have done is drive the conversation into the gutter of insults. Thanks for lowering the tone. - SchroCat (talk) 23:00, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
Oppose infobox – per Tim, SchroCat and others. Cassiantotalk 23:10, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
No one lowered anything here. The problem is that when you made the revert there was no consensus and you reverted a series of reasonable, non-vandal edits without agreement or discussion. Those arguing against an infobox came in later to establish their position and support yours. That there was an original consensus is a false statement; you are basing this argument in general on something which did not exist. Is there consensus now, maybe. You insisted on calling yourself reader and editor as an argument for editing in a way you saw was suitable to your opinion and position. Think about what means and looks like. As for my position I've said what I had to say and made my position clear. Good luck with the rest of the article and best wishes.(Littleolive oil (talk) 23:16, 4 December 2014 (UTC))
- You did lower yourself. You threw around ownership accusations, which was a pretty stupid thing for you to do. Your views have been noted, but unfortunately do not void the current status quo. Also, please familiarise yourself with WP:BRD. That is why it was reverted. Cassiantotalk 23:21, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
−
- @oil. It looks like things aren't getting through here. When this article went through PR and FAC it did not have an IB. It has, therefore, been through two community processes without the question being raised, and no-one suggesting that the IB is needed. THAT IS THE CURRENT CONSENSUS, whether you like it or not. When the IP added the IBS, there was no consensus to do so, and it was removed on the same good faith grounds as the editor who added it. To claim there was no consensus to remove the box is a falsehood. You are trying to claim a consensus for its existence that did not exist, and still does not exist. I hope this is now in simple enough language that it finally makes it self apparent to you. – SchroCat (talk) 23:25, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
SchroCat, the only person making insults here is you, and you appear to even be arguing with yourself. I respect that good minds may dffer on the infobox topic, but the reality is that consensus can change and a well-designed infobox is a common element on well over half of all wikipedia articles, and {{Infobox person}} and its variants appear on at least hundreds of actor articles. MOS:INFOBOX is clear: they "summarize key facts that appear in the article" and "[allowi] readers to identify key facts at a glance." There are additional benefits, which I don't need to recap here as we've all heard them 100 times and we all know the standard debate. But bottom line si that the crack about "indb" is misplaced - In the FA category where this article is placed, there are 56 other biographies, most about actors. Eight of them lack infoboxes, (plus this one, so 9) all the rest have them, both of living and deceased individuals. Naturally, someone here will raise OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, to which I shall preemptively counter IDONTLIKEIT, so now we can agree that we've thrown capital letters at each other and be done with it. The issue is if an infobox is useful, which it is, if it is accurate, which can be fixed if it's not, and beyond that, I really fail to see why anyone has to throw a fit about its inclusion. NOTDEMOCRACY also applies, and I really am failing to see any way that civilization as we know it will vanish if one is included, and it is clear that its addition is not going to harm the FA status of the article. Montanabw(talk) 23:40, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- No:Your friend was the one who stared throwing baseless insults around, so cut out the finger pointing. And I fail to see where I am arguing with myself? I see little of merit in your argument and and I really am failing to see any way that civilization as we know it will vanish if one is not included. - SchroCat (talk) 23:45, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
Let's be clear. When you removed that infobox you did not have consensus nor did you bring discussion of that revert to this page. You did not. Someone else finally did.Who made the first revert and started the edit war?. Do you have consensus now, maybe. I have not claimed a consensus on anything. I have no problem with discussion based on truth but you are making false claims and that's not a great idea. As for lowering the tone here, idiot and stupid seem unnecessary while a suggestion that actions, given a clear position may violate one of our policies or guidelines is not? Now. I'm done here. You have established a voted-on agreement to remove the infobox at this time. And my position which every editor has a right to, is that the arguments for its removal do not hold water. Further, I'm not particularly impressed with the false accusations.(Littleolive oil (talk) 23:50, 4 December 2014 (UTC))
- You really don't understand how Wikipedia works, do you? Let's go through this in simple terms:
- This article has gone through two community processes without an IB. There is, therefore, a consensus not to include one.
- An IP added an IB in good faith, as he is allowed to do.
- As per WP:BRD, I reverted, as I am allowed to do. I need get no additional consensus from anyone to revert the article back to its stable state.
- Tim riley opened this thread to discuss the IB question (and agreed that the removal was correct).
- Montanabw edit warred to re-insert the IB against consensus and when there was already an open thread on this, and in breach of BRD. At the very least that is procedurally poor.
- i put it back to the last stable state, prior to Montanabw's edit warring.
- I doubt that you will agree that Montanabw has edit warred, but you'll only be being dishonest to yourself if you don't. I make no false claims at all, and your inability to see that the consensus not to have an IB pre-dates the IPs addition is a reflection of your entrenched views, nothing else. I'll only add that there are no false accusations, so please do not try to smear me with your innuendo. - SchroCat (talk) 00:02, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- Littleolive, where was the IP's consensus to add an infobox? If we need a consensus to remove it, then surely that logic works the other way, no? Articles are not born with info boxes, nor is it obligatory for them to have one once they have been created. Cassiantotalk 10:47, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- Given that we have a clear consensus on this page against an info-box, may I suggest we politely note Littleolive oil's doubtless good-faith views and then move on, leaving the article as vetted at PR and FAC? – Tim riley talk 00:22, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
Chimes at Midnight (1965)
@Tim riley: Was fortunate enough to see that film recently. He was excellent in it as King Henry IV, can you reword slightly and mention that he portrayed Henry IV in it? One of the most talented casts I've seen in any film in that one, Margaret Rutherford, one of my favourite actresses also in it. Would love to get her up to FA at some point..♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:22, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
RMS and edit warring
I know you are aware of WP:BRD, as I've had to ask you to avoid edit warring to your own poor standards before, but your edit warring is becoming frequent bore. Your edits were reverted because they were sub-optimal. That's it. If you somehow think they are better, please explain, rather than your contestant reversions based on nothing but your own preference. To note: you are at the limit of WP:3RR, so if the article is returned to its former state and you revert again, I will happily report you in the appropriate forum. - SchroCat (talk) 17:09, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
- I agree with SchroCat concerning the recent edits. Please stop edit-warring, User:Rms125a@hotmail.com. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:14, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
- I am not edit-warring; it is SchroCat who violated WP:3RR first, who falsely cited WP:BRD, when his nitpicking trivialities (which could have been easily resolved had he explained his objections) do not constitute anything remotely BOLD, and who refused to explain the reasons for his reverting my edits at least once. He also made arrogant obnoxious and demeaning comments, to all of which you appear to be oblivious, @Ssilvers, surprise, surprise. Quis separabit? 21:38, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
- RMS, please mind your civility. CassiantoTalk 21:42, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
- Despite your false accusation, I have not "violated" 3RR. If you think I have, please feel free to file a report. Your edits were poor (a plain link to another site withint the text? Good grief!) which is why it was reverted. That was not "nit-picking": that is basic stuff. I have made no "arrogant obnoxious and demeaning comments", and I think you should have a look at the WP:CIVILITY policy, but I suspect the irony of this, given your comments, may be lost on you. – SchroCat (talk) 21:55, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
- RMS, please mind your civility. CassiantoTalk 21:42, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
- I am not edit-warring; it is SchroCat who violated WP:3RR first, who falsely cited WP:BRD, when his nitpicking trivialities (which could have been easily resolved had he explained his objections) do not constitute anything remotely BOLD, and who refused to explain the reasons for his reverting my edits at least once. He also made arrogant obnoxious and demeaning comments, to all of which you appear to be oblivious, @Ssilvers, surprise, surprise. Quis separabit? 21:38, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
I'm rather late to the party, but am I to understand that User:Quis separabit? perpetrated an external link within the main text and then edit-warred to keep it there in the face of the MoS ("standard formatting requirements...not placing links in the text of the article")? Very poor conduct, in my view, as well as wholly pointless given that the article is fully cited on this point. Tim riley talk 22:37, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
Tiny grammatical mistake being turned into idiotic edit war
I have corrected a minor grammatical and stylistic solecism in the text. It has now been reverted without justification twice; firstly by Tim riley and now by SchroCat, who from comments on this page seems to be a more senior editor but also Tim Riley's friend.
The change I made is this: the original text read:
"After Hillside, Lewis had won a scholarship to Eton, and Val had done likewise to Rugby, but John, lacking their academic achievement, did not follow them.[10]"
This sentence is stylistically clumsy (it has three subordinate clauses in one and a quarter lines). It also contains a category error (i.e. the use of 'academic achievement' when 'academic prowess' or 'academic talent' is clearly meant). It also contains what grammarians call a 'denied conclusion' (i.e. it says 'John... did not follow them' thus implying the question 'Follow them where?' To Rugby? Or to Eton? Or to any public school?). I bring up these points only to show that the sentence has multiple grammatical, syntactical and stylistic flaws. However, I made only one change:
"After Hillside, Lewis had won a scholarship to Eton, as Val had done likewise to Rugby, but John, lacking their academic achievement, did not follow them.[10]"
I changed "and" to "as". This is more precise - since it compares the educational qualifications of the brothers; it's smoother in terms of style; and it's grammatically correct, distinguishing a preposition from a conjunction.
Now, as this talk page clearly shows, it seems that you two seem to have a deeply entrenched feeling of ownership over this particular article. May I therefore ask you to set it aside and simply allow a correct grammatical edit to be made without turning this into a long contest over one letter? My compliments to you both. Hubertgrove (talk) 04:11, 6 March 2016 (UTC) Hubertgrove
- In fact, I have now wholly re-edited the sentence so that its style and grammar are rectified. I hope this concludes the issue. Hubertgrove (talk) 04:32, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
- Firstly, pleased do not try and personalise the matter by commenting on others. No-one here is "a senior editor", as there is no such thing. Tim and I are both editors who have worked on this article (see the page history and its candidacy as a featured article). Furthermore, if you decide to throw petty insults around (such as accusations of ownership), you will only annoy and irritate others, and you are lucky not to receive a blast of base Anglo-Saxon in return.
- The sentence, as it first stood and as it now stands again, is grammatically correct. I am not sure where you are from (given the time you are editing, I suspect you are not British), and you may be unaware of British English; you may be judging this under some different variant. Suffice to say that during this article's progress through the peer review and FA candidacy, the grammar was checked thoroughly by numerous experienced editors, who judged the passage acceptable.
- I do not know why you have chosen to edit war instead of use the talk page, but I should like to point out that you are now at the edges of WP:3RR, and if you revert based on your personal preference, I will be happy to file an edit warring report in the appropriate forum. In case you are unaware, the extant version remains while changes are discussed. – – SchroCat (talk) 07:01, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
- One hardly knows where to begin. Rising above the personalisation and snide comments by the editor Hubertgrove, one can only agree with SchroCat that the change showed a lack of understanding of good English. Hubertgrove's change turned a clear and correct statement into a clumsy tautology, and whether his/her first language is English or not, that simply won't do for a Featured Article. As SchroCat rightly remarks, the article has been reviewed by experienced editors at PR and FAC, and it seems to me that what we have here is a case of "Everyone's out of step except my little Hubertgrove". -- Tim riley talk 11:52, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
Because of some misplaced - and impermissible - feelings of ownership towards particular article and some wounded sensitivities, you have deleted a cleaned up and grammatically correct edit. You gave this reversion the comment Incorrect in fact amd grammer. This is now reverted.
You also made some rather racist comments about me. 'I suspect you are not British), and you may be unaware of British English'. Your suspicions are wrong. Since you bring it up: I am a natural-born UK citizen whose first language is English; I am a graduate of Durham University in English Literature and am studying an MA in the same subject at Edinburgh University as a mature student; I am a published author and journalist; my profession until recently was copywriter. May I enquire what are you qualifications please? Do you have formal academic or professional proficiencies in grammar, syntax and style?
Finally, you posted an impolite and peremptory message on my personal talk page. I have deleted this. If you wish to communicate with me, please do so in a courteous manner on this page. Any further communications on my Talk Page cannot be answered and will be deleted
If you revert this edit again, I will complaint about your behaviour and your edit warring. Thank you. Hubertgrove (talk) 15:21, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- OK, within five minutes of me making this legitimate edit, you reverted it without explanation. I have had enough of your bizarre behaviour. I am going to make a formal complaint of edit warring and disruptive editing, and apply for the page to be protected against your vandalism. Hubertgrove (talk) 15:35, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
As I've posted on your talk page: stop bloody edit warring on this, stop baselessly accusing people of vandalism when it obviously isn't and stop accusing people of ownership just because you are not getting your way. See WP:STATUSQUO over why you need to leave the current version in place while you discuss the matter (politely, if that's possible). Feel free to file a report if you'd like: it will not work out well for you. – SchroCat (talk) 16:14, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- The change from "and" to "as" implies a link, a causality maybe, between the two gettings of scholarships that is not warranted here, as far as I can tell. I mean, since this is listed as a grammatical problem (it's not--it's style: it has nothing to do with "correctness", which is I think what was implied), I can be picky, though my pickiness comes from policy: WP:OR. I don't like the sentence to begin with, I'll grant you that, but that's probably because I'm more used to US English. In addition, "it seems that you two seem to have a deeply entrenched feeling of ownership" is really a borderline personal attack and it was correctly pointed out to you, Hubertgrove, that you should play the ball, not the man. "I suspect you are not British" is not racist either. Strictly speaking, "your bizarre behavior" is maybe not a personal attack, but it flies in the face of AGF etc. If all of y'all cooled it down some (yes, SchroCat and Tim r., you as well), this could be worked out quite easily. Just let me not hear anyone say the one is grammatically correct and the other isn't, since that's not what's going on here. Drmies (talk) 16:32, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- Drmies Thanks for intervening. But I rewrote the offending sentence to avoid the 'as' or 'and' problem - and to render it stylistically and grammatically correct. Did you not see the new sentence? If you review that sentence, you will see it avoids the problem completely and is now an easier read.
- [From my own academic and commercial experience, I am afraid you are simply wrong on the matter of grammar (on the simplest level, one doesn't put a comma before 'and' except in exceptionally rare circumstances - for example, the Oxford comma). However this maybe a distinction between British and US usage. However, this point is moot since the sentence is changed] Hubertgrove (talk) 16:50, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- "As" suggests a causality or connection where there is none in this instance. "And" does not make such an implication. The sentance is, as it stands, grammatically correct. As to the claim that
"one doesn't put a comma before 'and' except in exceptionally rare circumstances"
just isn't correct I'm afraid. – SchroCat (talk) 17:40, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- It is a curious notion that it is racist to wonder whether someone whose English is patently not the Queen's English is English. I note that Hubertgrove imagines "moot" to mean "irrelevant", which is an American usage. (In English usage a moot point is one that is mooted - i.e. discussed. See the OED: "open to argument, debatable; uncertain, doubtful; unable to be firmly resolved". Nothing wrong with Americans using American usage, of course, but it mustn't be imposed on English writers.) For all Hubertgrove's many words on the matter, his/her change turned good English into a lumpen tautology. As we have patiently pointed out, the prose has been vetted at PR and FAC and evidently all the reviewers are out of step except Hubertgrove. Tim riley talk 19:48, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
Infobox again
Why is this article without an infobox? An earlier discussion deemed that an infobox wasn't necessary, but the page looks sloppy without one and it makes the article inconsistent with other pages for no good reason. Auror Andrachome (talk) 20:35, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
- Maybe back in 2014, when the consensus was reached, it wasn't as standard to have infoboxes? I agree as well though that the page feels incomplete without an infobox. Jeanjung212 (talk) 16:51, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose infobox. The Manual of Style says: "Whether to include an infobox ... is determined through discussion and consensus among the editors at each individual article." While sports and politician bios can benefit from infoboxes, most articles in liberal arts fields, as here, do not: "Infoboxes may be particularly unsuited to liberal arts fields when they repeat information already available in the lead section of the article, are misleading or oversimplify the topic for the reader". I disagree with including an infobox in this article because: (1) The box would emphasize unimportant factoids stripped of context and lacking nuance, in competition with the WP:LEAD section, which emphasizes and contextualizes the most important facts. (2) Since the most important points in the article are already discussed in the Lead, or adequately discussed in the body of the article, the box would be redundant. (3) It would take up valuable space at the top of the article and hamper the layout and impact of the Lead. (4) Frequent errors creep into infoboxes, as updates are made to the articles but not reflected in the redundant info in the box, and they tend to draw more vandalism and fancruft than other parts of articles. (5) The infobox template creates a block of code at the top of the edit screen that discourages new editors from editing the article. (6) It would discourage readers from reading the text of the article. (7) IBs distract editors from focusing on the content of the article. Instead of improving the article, they spend time working on this repetitive feature and its coding and formatting. See also WP:DISINFOBOX. -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:17, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose infobox (after edit conflict) @Jeanjung212: The use of infoboxes is neither required nor prohibited for any article per WP:INFOBOXUSE so it is most definitely not "standard"; IBs also do not allow for the nuance required in many of this type of biography which are not suited to such a basic factoid presentation. In my opinion it is discourteous and most disrespectful to the main contributors of this quality article - who have both retired after being worn down by the constant onslaught on articles they have done the most work on by IB advocates that have rarely made any contributions to the article - although I do appreciate that some may not have been editing long enough to be aware of the circumstances. SagaciousPhil - Chat 18:24, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose per this. Firstly, I don't understand why we have to keep having the same laborious discussion about the same laborious subject time and time again. Secondly, this article was promoted at WP:FAC without an infobox which, in itself, was a consensus, together with the one held in 2014. Thirdly, I didn't see anyone at FAC calling this excellent article "sloppy" or "incomplete", so can you Auror Andrachome, and you Jeanjung212, please show more respect to the two authors who are responsible for making this article what it is today. CassiantoTalk 18:56, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
- My ignorance on this issue was my own fault and thankyou for taking the time to explain and link the further reading. I now understand the view of not wanting an infobox on the article and how this still applies currently. Jeanjung212 (talk) 19:40, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose infobox They're not mandatory and should remain optional, but the choice to omit them should not mean those who don't are continuously pressured to add them. Gavin and Tim Riley left as a result of a horrible brawl over one at Noël Coward. FWIW, the subject recently surfaced at Edward Elgar, where Tim was also a co-editor. We hope (talk) 15:05, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
IP reverts: David Maxwell Fyfe
Despite being asked to take their grievances to this talk page, IPs have failed to do so. Recent reverts by IPs starting 31.52.xxx.xx claim "fervently homophobic" should be changed to "...was conservative on the issue of homosexual rights,"; the IP further maintains the word 'homophobia' was not is use at that time. S/he is also demanding that other refs be provided as the IP states s/he intends to continue edit warring unless their ultimatum is met where they also claim I am unable to read references. The below examples have been taken from sources easily accessible online - obviously there are a great many more available but hopefully these will be suffice to satisfy the IP.
- The refs already supplied do support the sentence "The Home Secretary of the day, David Maxwell Fyfe, was fervently homophobic, urging the police to arrest anyone who contravened the Victorian laws against homosexuality."
- The word 'homophobia' was first introduced in the 1960s
- Maxwell Fyfe has been described as "hideously homophobic", a "vicious homophobe", there are many other examples including "rampantly homophobic"[1] on page 201. SagaciousPhil - Chat 11:27, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
References
- ^ S. J. Harrison; Christopher Stray (2012). Expurgating the Classics: Editing Out in Latin and Greek. A&C Black. ISBN 978-1-84966-892-7.