Lowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs) m Archiving 1 discussion(s) to Talk:John F. Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories/Archive 6) (bot |
Tryptofish (talk | contribs) →Grossly UNDUE and WP:PROFRINGE: comment |
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:As you might imagine, this article has been a magnet for conspiracy enthusiasts of all stripes. Experienced editors have become exhausted by CT fans on the regular articles, where there are perennial demands to satisfy one or another pet CT. Nobody has had the patience to wade through all of the CTs and work out which have any actual notice in RS. It has been enough to deal with the constant "alleged" insertions on every conceivable peripheral article. This topic is also haunted by a couple of serial sockpuppeteers and IP hoppers. '''<span style="font-family: Arial;">[[User:Acroterion|<span style="color: black;">Acroterion</span>]] <small>[[User talk:Acroterion|<span style="color: gray;">(talk)</span>]]</small></span>''' 00:27, 23 May 2023 (UTC) |
:As you might imagine, this article has been a magnet for conspiracy enthusiasts of all stripes. Experienced editors have become exhausted by CT fans on the regular articles, where there are perennial demands to satisfy one or another pet CT. Nobody has had the patience to wade through all of the CTs and work out which have any actual notice in RS. It has been enough to deal with the constant "alleged" insertions on every conceivable peripheral article. This topic is also haunted by a couple of serial sockpuppeteers and IP hoppers. '''<span style="font-family: Arial;">[[User:Acroterion|<span style="color: black;">Acroterion</span>]] <small>[[User talk:Acroterion|<span style="color: gray;">(talk)</span>]]</small></span>''' 00:27, 23 May 2023 (UTC) |
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::For now I have tagged the article and am watchlisting it. There is going to have to be a dramatic improvement before I will be ok with taking down the tags. -[[User:Ad Orientem|Ad Orientem]] ([[User talk:Ad Orientem|talk]]) 01:36, 23 May 2023 (UTC) |
::For now I have tagged the article and am watchlisting it. There is going to have to be a dramatic improvement before I will be ok with taking down the tags. -[[User:Ad Orientem|Ad Orientem]] ([[User talk:Ad Orientem|talk]]) 01:36, 23 May 2023 (UTC) |
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:::I just now came upon this article while doing some reading for my own interest. It seems to me that an article about conspiracy theories ''ought'' to cover stuff that is pro-fringe. It's essential that we identify these conspiracy theories accurately, as things that are unlikely to be true. It's also important to have enough reliable sourcing to indicate that a given conspiracy theory has attracted enough interest for us to take notice of it. However, so long as we do not mislead readers into taking this stuff seriously, I don't have a problem with the page covering outlandish stuff. --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 00:53, 2 June 2023 (UTC) |
Revision as of 00:54, 2 June 2023
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This page has archives. Sections older than 60 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present. |
Removing material
GHWB
The following material is cited to Jefferson Morley's blog:
- Bush biographer Kitty Kelley alleges that Bush was unable to remember his whereabouts on the day of Kennedy's assassination, despite the fact that this information is known. The day of the assassination, Bush flew to Tyler, Texas, to make an appearance ahead of his upcoming campaign for the U.S. Senate in 1964, and spoke to the FBI about a local who had threatened Kennedy. The previous day, Bush had been in Dallas to speak at an oil industry meeting. Morley has suggested the possibility that Bush's report to the FBI was a cover story, but cautioned that "speculation, however plausible, isn't evidence," and that Kelley is "not the most reliable of sources."[456]
Apparently the CTs think this means that the Bush didn't want to admit he was in Dallas/Dealey Plaza. (Bush did pen a letter in 1979 stating that he was in Tyler, Texas - see Jodie Elliott Hansen's book - so this is consistent with CTs cherry-picking their info.) There is no reliable secondary source of information about the conspiracy that discusses the relevance of this, so I am going to remove it from the article. - Location (talk) 20:54, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
The following material is cited to various primary sources, conspiracy sources, a newspaper obituary, and Bugliosi:
- In September 1976, George de Mohrenschildt, a Dallas petroleum geologist and a friend of both Bush and Lee Harvey Oswald,[457][458][459][460] wrote a letter to Bush, then director of the CIA, asking for his assistance.[461][462][463] Mohrenschildt was being pressured by House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) investigators to testify on the assassination, causing him to write the letter in distress. Bush responded to Mohrenschildt's letter, but said he would be unable to help.[CIA Exec Reg. # 76,51571 9.28.76][i] Mohrenschildt committed suicide six months later, before testifying to the HSCA.[464][465][466] Morley argues that the letter's existence, and Bush's response, does not demonstrate guilt for either man, but merely that Bush was uninterested in questioning the CIA's account of the assassination.[456]
The discussion of de Mohrenschildt in the obituary and Bugliosi refer to his connections to Oswald and does not mention a conspiracy involving GHWB. We have some innuendo, but again there is no reliable secondary source of information about the conspiracy that discusses the relevance of this, so I am going to remove it from the article. - Location (talk) 22:51, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
The following material is also cited to Jefferson Morley's blog:
- Those who believe that Bush may have been involved in the assassination have presented photographic evidence of a man resembling Bush in Dealey Plaza at the time of the assassination. However, Morley argues this evidence is weak, as no comparative measurements of the two men's facial features has been made. Bush was already an announced Senate candidate for several months by the time of the assassination and thus had received much press attention. No eyewitnesses have publicly recalled seeing Bush at the scene, though his opponent, incumbent Senator Ralph Yarborough, passed by in the presidential motorcade.[457]
This is one of those factoids that is debated among "researchers", but again there is no reliable secondary source of information about the conspiracy that discusses the relevance of this. I am going to remove it from the article. - Location (talk) 19:47, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
Other published theories
The following material appears in the "Other published theories" section:
- Nomenclature On An Assassination Cabal (1970) by William Torbitt. The pseudonymous author claimed to be a lawyer with investigative skills working in the South. "Torbitt" was one of the earliest writers to publicly criticize the official Warren Commission report, and his book claimed that the Warren Commission report covered up the fact that the U.S government was aware of a plot to kill Kennedy and failed to take action against the plot. Despite the work's obscurity, the claim of government awareness and negligence regarding a plot to kill Kennedy has since become a key framework surrounding discussion about the Kennedy assassination. See The Internet Archive website
Removed. I am sure Torbitt (aka David Copeland) is famous within the wall-garden of conspiracy believers, but this blurb (which in essence states that a conspiracy believer read a book by another conspiracy believer) is the only mention I could find of him or his book in a reliable source. - Location (talk) 16:00, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
The following material appears in the "Other published theories" section:
- Joseph P. Farrell's LBJ and the Conspiracy to Kill Kennedy (2011) attempts to show multiple interests had reasons to remove President Kennedy: The military, CIA, NASA, anti-Castro factions, Hoover's FBI and others. He concludes that the person that allowed all of these groups to form a "coalescence of interests" was Vice President Lyndon Johnson. ISBN 978-1-935487-18-0
Removed. Farrell is a prolific writer of alternative history, but no coverage in reliable sources. - Location (talk) 16:15, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
The following material appears in the "Other published theories" section:
- The Kennedy Mutiny (2002) by Will Fritz (not the same as police captain J. Will Fritz), claims that the assassination plot was orchestrated by General Edwin Walker, and that he framed Oswald for the crime. ISBN 0-9721635-0-6.
- JFK: The Second Plot (2002) by Matthew Smith explores the strange case of Roscoe White. In 1990, Roscoe's son Ricky made public a claim that his father, who had been a Dallas police officer in 1963, was involved in killing the president. Roscoe's widow Geneva also claimed that before her husband's death in 1971 he left a diary in which he claims he was one of the marksmen who shot the President, and that he also killed Officer J. D. Tippit. ISBN 1-84018-501-5.
Removed. Neither Fritz or Smith - or their works - are notable or have coverage in reliable secondary sources. - Location (talk) 16:26, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
Long List of "Witness Deaths" misleading
The long list of Witness Deaths (about 3 pages of text) creates the impression of overwhelming evidence for the theory they evidence of a conspiracy. The argument that they are not improbable statistically is actually the consensus of reliable sources. It should be in a paragraph at the top of the section, just after (or before) a paragraph summarizing the theory witness deaths are evidence of a conspiracy. Ttulinsky (talk) 04:14, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
- I have removed the following text from this section:
- Another suspicious death cited by Jim Marrs was that of Joseph Milteer, director of the Dixie Klan of Georgia. Milteer was secretly tape-recorded thirteen days before the assassination telling Miami police informant William Somersett that the murder of Kennedy was "in the working". Milteer died in 1974 when a heater exploded in his house.[108][109][110][111][112] The House Select Committee on Assassinations reported in 1979 that Milteer's information on the threat to the President "was furnished [to] the agents making the advance arrangements before the visit of the President" to Miami, but that "the Milteer threat was ignored by Secret Service personnel in planning the trip to Dallas." Robert Bouck, Special Agent-in-Charge of the Secret Service's Protective Research Section, testified that "threat information was transmitted from one region of the country to another if there was specific evidence it was relevant to the receiving region."[113]
- If this section is to be about the theory that people were presumably killed because they knew too much, the only thing we have here is Jim Marrs claiming Joseph Milteer's death - eleven years after JFK's death - was suspicious. There is no indication of why Marrs thought that it was suspicious and Milteer's death isn't even discussed in reliable sources. The reliable sources here do state that Milteer was caught on tape making a threat, the HSCA investigated it, and said that the Secret Service responded poorly... but that is not what this section is about. Marrs may have been a well-known CT, however, that does not mean every thought he put in writing gets to go in this article. - Location (talk) 23:33, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
- I condensed the first part of this section that refers to the first ten deaths that Penn Jones considered to be "suspicious". I imagine it will take at least five to six lines to discuss how each person is (tenuously) connected to the assassination, how they died and why Jones or someone else thought their death was "suspicious", and the counter-argument provided by the WC, HSCA, or some other reliable source. If we are going to introduced fifty to sixty more sentences to the article on just these ten people, then there should be a sub-article. [Edit: I removed the UNZ links to the original Ramparts articles per the deprecated source tag/warning and Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources#Sources.] - Location (talk) 15:46, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
Israeli involvement
I was trying to add a book about the possible involvement of Israel in the assassination of JFK. That book is titled Accomplishing Jim Garrison's Investigation on the Trail of the Assassins of JFK. I tried to explain the relevance of that book, but I was censored. That book was praised by James DiEugenio, one of the main experts on the assassination of JFK, and by many others. Enough reason to add it. 93.41.114.124 (talk) 11:38, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
- You were not censored. You were reverted because you attempted to add fringe material from a non-notable book by a non-notable author. I am sure conspiracy theorists think it is a good book, but you will likely need a better argument because inclusion of that material would run afoul of WP:SPS, WP:REDFLAG, WP:FRIND, etc. -Location (talk) 16:21, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
Grossly UNDUE and WP:PROFRINGE
This page is egregiously unbalanced with numerous claims sourced only to WP:FRINGE sources and with little or no counterbalance. -Ad Orientem (talk) 00:04, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
- As you might imagine, this article has been a magnet for conspiracy enthusiasts of all stripes. Experienced editors have become exhausted by CT fans on the regular articles, where there are perennial demands to satisfy one or another pet CT. Nobody has had the patience to wade through all of the CTs and work out which have any actual notice in RS. It has been enough to deal with the constant "alleged" insertions on every conceivable peripheral article. This topic is also haunted by a couple of serial sockpuppeteers and IP hoppers. Acroterion (talk) 00:27, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
- For now I have tagged the article and am watchlisting it. There is going to have to be a dramatic improvement before I will be ok with taking down the tags. -Ad Orientem (talk) 01:36, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
- I just now came upon this article while doing some reading for my own interest. It seems to me that an article about conspiracy theories ought to cover stuff that is pro-fringe. It's essential that we identify these conspiracy theories accurately, as things that are unlikely to be true. It's also important to have enough reliable sourcing to indicate that a given conspiracy theory has attracted enough interest for us to take notice of it. However, so long as we do not mislead readers into taking this stuff seriously, I don't have a problem with the page covering outlandish stuff. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:53, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
- For now I have tagged the article and am watchlisting it. There is going to have to be a dramatic improvement before I will be ok with taking down the tags. -Ad Orientem (talk) 01:36, 23 May 2023 (UTC)